Another Look at Vyce | Tactics Ogre Analysis (Ep.9) | State of the Arc Podcast
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
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We continue the Law route of Tactics Ogre. Also, horrible missed opportunity last episode by not calling it Law & Ogre. Can't believe I missed that one. It was right there!
Time Codes:
1. Intro (0:00)
2. Treachery of Leonar (0:51)
3. Another Look at Vyce (16:53)
4. To Kill the Duke (36:51)
5. Chapter 3 (52:27)
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Those two potential lightbulb moments you had with Vyce were pretty awesome to witness materialize out of one simple line of optional dialogue. Inspired stuff.
Looking at it from the other direction, you can also view Law route Vyce witnessing Denam do something that heinous as something that could reasonably shake a person to their very core and give them a massive reality check that would put their own petty/angsty insecurities (which he was showing in Chapter 1) into perspective as well, and lead them towards maturing/growing up a lot sooner and start seeing and caring about the more important things in the world.
On top of that, there's no reason for Vyce to even have those insecurities/his inferiority complex about Denam anymore after Balmamusa in Law Route, because Vyce no longer has any need to pretend/convince himself that he's better-- he knows that he IS and forever will remain better than Denam in some vital way simply because he never committed such a heinous act. This was the only delusion that he was ever really desperately clinging to from the start, and it's completely reconciled and resolved in that moment. And he does hang that guilt/shortcoming over Denam permanently.
"There's no forgiving what you've done. You were the duke's hand in the massacre. There are no words for one so low. But a man can repent. You did what you thought best. If I were a greater fool, I might have done the same."
On the point of people having a radical change in personality from a single point in time:
I've known plenty of people who have had some dramatic changes in life and personality, especially at high school age. It's an age where you have your own morals and beliefs, but you also have all this new information pouring in and you have brand new understanding from various different viewpoints. Of course there are always little things and smaller events in between that take part in that, but it's definitely something that happens to a lot of people.
To me, Vice and Leonard are the two characters more for the plot differences and less about a real character. That being said, I think you guys did an amazing job dissecting and analyzing both characters to where it makes more sense. Overall, the entire story's positives ouweights the minor flaws the inconsistencies of these two characters that some people might have with. Again, you guys continue to highlight some of the most obscure side content of this masterpiece, and as a fan of TO, I'm really enjoying these episodes.
I think it’s correct not to compare the same characters across routes, especially characters like Leonar
Imo part of the game’s theme is that events playing out differently can cause people to develop into completely different people. Even within ourselves, if major life choices went totally different directions there’s a chance you would be unrecognizable to yourself.
Vyce is probably a bit too extreme in the writing, but it’s a lot more palatable with most other characters
Also Caden low key knows some wild people lol
I think the reason I critique them saying the characters aren’t consistent is because at least to me, it seems like they thought the characters could not have made those different decisions; I can see why people take issue with Vyce especially comparing Law to the other routes, but it always feels like Leonar (as we saw him in Chapter 1) could have ended up where he did between these three paths. On this one and Chaos, he sees the Duke commit a betrayal of the Walister in his mind, in choosing to negotiate with the Dark Knights; only on Neutral did Ronway never sell out, so Leonar stuck at least to the impression that the Duke gave of truly believing in their cause…
The reason I think Leonar always sees something of value in Denam, is that he sees the idealism his own younger self has since lost; all three Route branches (and presumably the one that wasn’t made for this path) are prompted by him telling Denam “Do you stand with me on this?” On Law where Denam willingly stains his hands, he is at his worst and outright says he aimed to sacrifice him along with Ronway; on Neutral where Denam rejoins later, he continues to be the mentor and defending Denam from slander, trusting him to take up the cause after him; and on Chaos, although he cannot bring himself to really believe that Denam’s idealism is unshakable, he actually WANTS it to be and when he sees his own path at a dead end he owns up to his own worst qualities to make himself as big an ogre as Ronway because he can’t delude himself anymore.
i think they definitely played through the first route and developed a head cannon of what each person's core values were and carried that across to the other routes, when really some of those things were never core but developed based on the events that happened.
My interpretation of Leonar in that Law route is that he intended to take over the Wallister Resistance himself. However, I also believe he was realistic and knew there was always a chance his machinations would backfire. The way I see, Denam was set up to take over as a contingency plan, assuming his own attempt to depose the Duke ended miserably, because Leonar does care about his countryman, even if he cares about his own power just a little bit more.
As for Vyse, I see him as less of a character and more of a plot device, whose sole purpose is to embody the route you choose not to take and where it might logically lead. If you choose Law, Vyse becomes the leader you failed to be. If you choose Chaos, Vyse is consumed by the impulses that you could have easily slipped into.
The discussion on the formation of memories was from the Vagrant Story podcasts
Here's another perspective on Vyce to add to those already mentioned: When he observes Denam, the person who was always the natural leader, commit atrocities, that also changes HIS identity. He goes from seeing himself as "side character who wants to be the main character" to become the "person who did not participate". Once his identity changes like that, he can continue to build on it over time. We do, after all, also define ourselves through the people around us, who we are, and who we are not.
I remember this section of the game well.
(1) Like Mike, I agree that I like the choice to have Denam fully embrace Leonar’s heroic speech. When I first played Tactics Ogre at 17, I remember being pumped and filled with ambition, thinking that Denam would be the hero to unseat the incompetent Ronwey, and save the Walister through sheer force of arms. It was his / my destiny. I think it’s very interesting also that Casen brought up Napoleon, who famously saw himself as being guided by destiny for great achievement; there is a particular yearning, especially amongst young men, for greatness and achievement that Leonar and Matsuno seem to be aware and tap onto.
Revisiting this scene at a much older age, I still find that scene stirring, even when evaluated with a more critical eye. Denam’s / my fantasies about heroism is weaponized by Leonar for the latter’s more Machiavellian ends, a testament to how cynical political brokers would exploit these fantasies of heroism for their own purposes.
It is worth noting that by the end of Law, Denam is all of these things. He really is that hero who defeats the Galgastani and saves the Walister by the end of Law Chapter 3. But we see also a more chastened Denam, one who sees leadership not through the fulcrum of his own Napoleonic destiny, but as atonement and responsibility, a true harbinger of peace.
Ironically, the message that Matsuno seems to want to convey about heroism here is that it is best viewed in a more muted light, without the colouring of Napoleonic aspirations, but with a sober regard for war as evil and the necessity for goodness and peace.
(2) A key theme I noticed in this section of the game has to do with authority. The game asks two thematic questions:
A. What do we do when faced with unfit authority?
B. How do we heal from the hurts that have resulted from service to said authority?
This is a fitting theme of Law, since Denam has chosen to work within the system instead of out of it (Chaos).
With regards to A, the game primarily tackles this question through Leonar and Hektor. When faced with an authority figure that they disagree with, Leonar and Hektor have chosen to pursue different ends. Leonar takes a more pragmatic and ruthless position, declaring that incompetent authority is no true authority at all, and positions either himself or Denam in Ronwey’s stead. Hektor, on the other hand, seems to acknowledge Balbatos as leader, but passively resists through an act of group suicide. He is willing to die for a bad leader, but not willing to live or win for one.
On second thought, while your interpretation is surely right about Denam playing into Leonar’s delusions of grandeur, we can see Denam also tussling with that question when asked to lead a coup against Ronwey. Ronwey is eminently unfit to rule, but does Denam still insist on swearing at least surface level authority to him (Hektor)? Or rebel and resist (Leonar)?
With regards to B, Denam and Jeunan are themselves in this route broken figures who have to come to terms with what they have done under the auspices of a deeply corrupt and evil authority figure, how they have chosen to look the other way and obey against their moral dictates, how they have bought into the lie sold to them that this atrocity is “necessary” for success.
Piggybacking on what Casen said about traumatic events leading to a dramatic self (re)conception, it is noteworthy that Denam’s near-death experience at the end of Law 2 also forces him to evaluate his erstwhile consequentialist beliefs. He is shown a picture of Leonar, what he might well end up if he genuinely believed in radical consequentialism and the Walister above all else, and when faced with that image of himself, that Shadow, Denam rejects it.
He begins his journey of atonement and redemption, much like Thorfinn in Vinland Saga, carrying the weights and souls of those he has slaughtered on his back, resolving to bring about peace not for self-aggrandisement or for the glory of conquest, but for atonement.
Love the psychology discussion in this episode, deep conversations like this are why I listen to the pod. That and the references to other works
Why I see Leonar deciding it has to be him or Denam is because of necessity. Most likely if one of them is alive, the people cannot unite under a leader if an optional leader remains. It seems like Mike was leaning into this way of thinking.
I really love what you Mike and Casen do here discussing these games, specially RPG strategy games. I'm always intrigued by their stories, characters and symbolism. But cannot get myself to learn all the complexities of gameplay.
I'd like to give an answer to the question of why Leonar didn't just join Denam in Chaos even though he's against the Duke's decision to ally with the dark knights. More generally, why no matter what route you take, Leonar *has* to die. I think Law route answers this question, and I didn't have a problem with how he acts in Chaos because Law was my first playthrough. Leonar's goal and Denam's goal are incompatible. Sure, they both want to liberate the Wallister, but the main difference is that Leonar wants to keep the noble-commoner power relationship and work within the system to gain the power to establish a strong state for the Wallister. Denam in Chaos and Vyce in Law (who ultimately brings Denam to his side) want to tear down the nobility in Valeria who are the source of these wars and bring freedom the Wallister through unification. Vyce's conversation with Leonar during the end of Chapter 2 Law battle explains all of this. Thus, the reason why Leonar did not want to join Denam in Chaos is because he wanted to do things his own way or sway Denam to his side. He believed Denam's idealist method of fighting the system is not as effective as working within the system, though I think it's safe to assume Leonar in Chaos would have eventually assassinated the Duke once he saw his opportunity (or was already planning it). In all of these cases, however, he sees Denam's method as the second best option which is why he encourages him in his death scenes. Neutral is where I'm less certain, as his speech seems to indicate he has recognized the nobility as the true evil in all this. But I think him avoiding condemning the Duke in that speech implies he's not entirely broken away from his loyalty to the system. It is my opinion that the relationship between Denam and Leonar was the blueprint for Ramza and Delita in FFT. Two people who care about each other and want a better situation for the people, but one works within the system and one without.
Edit: Oh also, I think the reason why they couldn't just blame any random soldier for the Duke's death is because it was apparent that a decently sized force attacked Almorica. Are the people really gonna believe some random soldier planned this? It's much more believable that the Hero of Golyat or the Duke's most competent right hand man would be able to pull this off.
It's funny, I look back on certain "pivot" moments of my life and wonder who I could've been if I'd done something just a little different. Then I laugh because I probably would've ended up where I am right now anyway, just with different annoyances.
So here's the thing about Vyce, as CoffeePotato has mentioned a few times on his channel, and i believe so on this podcast in the comments: His motivation is mostly to get to Catuia. He's always been Envious of Denam's Good name and status, and when the route split happens, it either drives him further into ambition and you see his more evil side as still get Catuia away from Denam, or you see Denam commit to something that shocks him, so he makes his own Wallister Resistance not only to spite the duke, but to get Catuia out of it as well.
The Vyce section was great.
I'd definitely agree that, in my opinion, a semi-consistent flaw in the writing in Tactics Ogre is that it makes big leaps in the wrong places at times
I do think Leonar does want Denam to be the leader, once he saw how the war was turning out. He's a pragmatist and I think he would suffer any of his allies or even himself to become the leader of his faction if he thinks that person will be able to win in the end. Not to save the country, but to Win the War.
I dont think Vyce's hinge-point "headcanon" is that crazy.
The moment Denam picks which path to follow, at that exact moment is when his portrait changes, so I think is more canon than headcanon. It makes sense that Vyce would shift like that considering the shadow he's being living on.
Law is definitely my favoritr route. Al least the most "human"
at 11:30, I think that Denam defeating/killing Leonar and becoming the leader was an acceptable outcome because it gets rid of the Duke and has the potential to unite the Walister under one banner again. I think that it certainly was not his preferred outcome. He says as much, and at that point he is dying, so I can't imagine why he would be dishonest about it.
I was thinking about vyce, and our choices. Maybe it's not that we can go back and make different choices to see how our personalities would change. But maybe it's that a change in personality would change how we would make the decision in the first place.
I heard that the reason we perceive time as being faster as we get older is because the neurons in our brains fire slower.
I agree with both guys regarding Leonar; I think he represents the kind of person Denam would/will become if he continued on the path he was on in Law. This is a guy who can delude himself and shift the rules in his worldview to not only fit but justify his actions to accomplish whatever goal he thinks is most important at the time, who full well lied to his fiancee just assuming that it'd work out in retrospect if he achieves this lofty goal.
Achieving this goal becomes loftier and loftier or even shifts entirely, and the sins you think will wash away when you achieve said goal mount exponentially until the only thing left is to die a martyr or try and start fresh. Leonar treats the world around him that way as easily as he breathes, but you can really see Denam starting to treat Catiua the same way as Law progresses.
So yes, he's full of crap, but at some point the manipulation of Denam becomes the truth for him once all other methods of "winning" become unviable.
Also regarding memory, in my legal psychology class I learned (regarding witness testimony) that memory recall isn't just over 50% bogus after a year, it's mostly unreliable within a couple *days*, and over 50% faulty in mere hours, depending on some factors like trauma from the event.
I wonder what would happen if Chaos Denam were to meet Law Denam like it's a CODA time paradox. What would they say to each other? Would Chaos Denam truly forgive his Law counterpart or hate his guts for going far? Would Law Denam curtail to his guilt and admit how much he wished he took Chaos' path or would he still consider Chaos Denam a fool for abandoning the cause for his own moral benefit? Maybe even add Neutral to the equation to see how all three feel about it.
Both Chaos and Law would be appaled by Neutrals lack of principle, but also envious that neutral spends basically all the time saving people and killing undead.
The evolution of the Vyce debate has been so interesting. Even though I do agree with some of the criticisms, I love how each episode has uncovered new layers and different ways to approach his character and is maybe one of the ways videos games are in a unique position to tell a story a specific way.
I think the personality shift in Denam/Vyce makes more sense if you look at it as if there is no shift, think about the game as if you had made the law/chaos choice at the beginning, but disguised as personality questions. The Denam who goes the law route was born “Law Denam”, he was always going to make that choice, he’s the timid version of himself who couldn’t stand against Leonar at Balmamusa. Same with Vyce. The choice of law or chaos in chapter 1 is only a choice as a player, Denam’s choice was already made for him because of who he is on that play thru/route.
mike got that william shakesman hairdo
Just curious: for those of us who don’t want to use subscribestar or patreon, do you have a paypal? I’d be happy to support the show, even if there’s not the full benefits of either (or any benefits, though perhaps discord access?)
There was a case where a woman was raped at her home and acused someone inocent of it because she saw him on television and remembered his face instead of the face of the attaquer.
I want to challenge your take on headcanon. This game is written like the old testament stories from the Bible. You are presented with the characters' actions, but you have to extrapolate the personality behind the actions on your own. It's very different from Hollywood writing, but that's also why the game feels so rich, and why you can have the amazing discussions on human nature that you've had in the best episodes of the Tactics Ogre podcast.
I know I rustled you with my comments on previous episodes. I was surprised by the points you brought up about memory in this episode. To me those are so obvious that I assumed you already knew about it. I assumed we had the same understanding of psychology, but maybe we don't, and that explains why so much in this game passes under my radar but not yours.
Personally, my only gripe about this series is really having guests on for the entirety of the show. Ivan is clearly knowledgeable about this game and his insight is nice from time to time. My issue is that he constantly and rudely interrupts anyone who has any sort of constructive criticism about the game; he spends too much time white knighting. This wouldn't be an issue if he was just on for one episode. But I love this show cuz of the analysis and white knighting and getting worked up every time you guys say something negative is just not fun at all. For instance, I really loved when you guys brought in Retrograde Amnesia for an episode. That was fantastic.
Are these bots in the comments? Why are the profile pictures so provocative
I'd argue that bots took over this site a decade ago.
Yeah, YT comments have a lot of bots unfortunately. There's always like 1 or 2 on Resonant Arc videos for some reason.
This video series took longer than I thought.