*Safety First* Just as a piece of information, the minimum longitudinal separation within NAT airspace is 10 minutes for aircraft following the same route, flying at the same Flight Level and doing the same speed. In case the leading aircraft is flying at higher speed (as this can be the case. According to our tracking data NAX was only a few knots faster), the separation can be reduced to 5 minutes. These two airplanes - according to Shannon ATC - were to cross SUNOT 3 minutes apart hence violating the minimum separation. Good call, Shannon!
So when I saw the title, I thought the KLM pilot was upset because the controller somehow put them into a minimum separation violation but he was upset that the controller was trying to take him out? WTF
@@ilovecops5499 Nice to see your an expert in the subject, I heard you also are a self proclaimed expert in rocket science, biology, math and have a PhD in talking shit.
@@LegionarisRex Hello Mistere Error Vermin. What university has corse sin ROCKERTES SCIENCES. YOUE EDITED YOURESD COMMETN...LOL I AM SMARTER THA YOUE, H, ha, ha ,ha! Erik Vännström Highlighted reply Erik Vännström 5 hours ago (edited) @i Love Cops Nice to see your an expert in the subject, I heard you also are a self proclaimed expert in rocket science, biology, math and have a PhD in talking shit.
Quick note speaking as a Shanwick controller. We recently introduced ADS-B coverage over the ocean, which is why we were able to clear the KLM with a 4 minute interval in the first place. We work initially off estimates given by the aircraft, but if they change and loss of separation is predicted - even if it’s at the far end of the ocean - the clearance must change, simple as that. In this case Shannon Control are only relaying to the KLM what they’ve been advised by Shanwick - they’re a superb unit and it’s really interesting to hear what they have to deal with sometimes!
Also this is a good reason why oceanic clearance should be requested as far in advance as possible, at the very least 30 mins - so that there’s plenty of time for time restrictions and the like to be communicated and aircraft to adjust their speeds accordingly to meet their estimate
Thanks for your comment! So does the new ADS-B coverage reduce the minimum 5 minutes to 4 in case the leading aircraft is faster than the following aircraft?
VASAviation - pretty much - ADS-B separations are in miles rather than minutes, so we convert it into minutes in order to apply entry time restrictions. Subject to the speed difference and routing of the aircraft you could have fewer than 4 minutes in some cases
BW Acuff do you mean the ‘Shan’ in Shanwick? Shanwick is a portmanteau of Shannon and Prestwick - because the HF radio is done from Ballygirreen (next to Shannon) and control is done from Prestwick
Once over Germany I heard how a atc supervisor stepped in on the frequency to give an aircraft a good telling off. She basically told the aircraft that if they didn’t wanted to be separated by atc they would get a vector out of German airspace. The offending aircraft became very quiet after that. Doesn’t happen very often fortunately.
@Aufnahmen aller Art - Medienproduktion. Tonstudio, Fotografie, Video. is German ATC under their own rules? As far as I know it is not illegal to monitor any ATC as long as there is no unauthorised transmission on the frequencies.
@@Bryan_tm_88 no, the ATC radio is under the jurisdiction of the Telekommunikationsgesetz (TKG) which states that listening to radio-messages that are not meant for you is illegal (I know, it's a stupid law). Technically even scanners are illegal.
Germany has lots of silly privacy laws outside in the open(I thought the USA was bad with some states require 2 party agreement, but at least it doesn't cover private property) , not allowed to use Dashcams legally (not sure how tesla cars gets away with it in Germany)
Unless ATC puts you in a dangerous situation and you must react, any perceived inconvenience to your flight plans should be, as ATC stated, handled at a later time. The airwaves are not the place to debate.
I do numerous Atlantic crossings each year ( or did, up to March ) and I’ve never heard anyone get their knickers in a twist like the Dutch one here. Can’t always get what you want , need to be agile enough to pick an alternate
But did you work for a company where a 1 minute detour equals you getting yelled at by a manager for burning too much fuel, like happens since Air France and the toxic French corporate culture took over KLM? I hope you didn't. But he has to work there.
In pilot terms, the KLM is air-raging. This is the air-equivalent of a road-rage where you drive the other person off the road into a fireball, then track that person's family down and butcher them.
I love when pilots argue with ATC over simple things like this. They’re there to help you, not just piss you off. Theres always a reason. Just follow instructions.
**〈〈think different〉〉** I agree, the report isn’t the part I’m talking about, just the arguing. Just let them know you’ll file a report and deal with it later.
That Dutchman was seriously in need of a pancake. Either that or he had inadvertantly sat down on the control column and had the proverbial stick up his ....
The KLM Karens keep their customers alive... I will have a Karen pilot any day over a turkish "bought my license at AliExpress" missing a runway or a guiness slugging gargoyle manning the radio and the magic ball...
Which airline still exists of those two ? Also: the Pan Am pilots ignored ATM instructions to take exit number three....instead they were stubborn and aimed to take number 4.
There was no need to discuss this over the radio. Shanwick control offered a couple of solutions and it is up to the pilots to chose which one suits them better. This way you are not only collaborative but also maintain mutual respect.
It sounded like a different voice from the KLM at the end of the clip. I know it would never be available, but it would be interesting to listen to the cockpit voice recording to see what was going on then. Was there a switch to a second crew? Did the captain and first officer switch roles between pilot flying and pilot monitoring? I wonder if the change happened to de-escalate the situation. (KLM flight 671 is from Amsterdam to Montreal and is scheduled to take about 7:15 today. Not sure if that is long enough to require a second crew on board.)
To me it just seems as simple as the KLM pilot was initially frustrated by the instructions, had a bit of a moan, but then ultimately settled down and accepted them. No massive drama really such a crew change ffs.
@@RiskyIOM It is interesting that every single fuckin video someone posts that, lol - almost like bots, they always think the deescalation is because of a crew change.
Also to input the new fix in the time required/Available would be kind of difficult. These guys have to think about their work load whilst up there. Although the aircraft does fly itself it requires a lot of data input, To change an already inputted flight plan mid flight is time consuming and can cause problems later down the line. One slip up or wrong button press could cause a cascade of issues later in the flight which is an avoidable distraction when they are supposed to be monitoring the condition and performance of the aircraft. This is why the flight plan is set out/input at the start of the day and clearances given at designated times, so they know when they need to change it and have the most time available to think these things through whilst not impacting flight safety.
Phil Macken it’s not that hard. It is an inconvenience but it’s part of the job. We have to do it all the time. His response to a routine part of the job, a clearance change, was juvenile at best
I think it may have to do with how heavy the aircraft was and climbing to fl390 when initiating the crossing would probably mean quite a higher fuel burn in order to reach the cruise level. Captain probably has to justify the deviation from the planned optimal cruise level
Hmmm... seems like we're missing quite some audio here to really understand what was going on. I mean... why were these aircraft so close to each other? Why did the KLM captain think that the Norshuttle wasn't at the altitude it was supposed to be? There seems to be a lot of information on the reasons why the KLM captain was so annoyed that cannot be heard in this video.
The Norshuttle was at the the correct altitude just when the flights converged on the entry points the planned time between them of 5 minutes with the lead aircraft being faster and therefore the gap increasing didn't happen as planned, this could be any number of reasons. The trouble is with the KLM is that i thinks because the NAX said he would be there at :22 and that should be good enough and the controller should accept that. The controller didn't accept that and decided to use his info from the radar which was he would be there until :23. So the controller wanted him to either dog leg to increase the distance slightly or change tracks. The controller needs to assure separation which his system shows was going to below the minimum separation. I assume just reducing speed by a little bit for 5 minutes wasn't a good option.
@@AirspotterUK You'd be quite surprised by how little difference a Mach change makes to a crossing time. A rule of thumb I learned was .01M equates to approx 6 knots at cruise level
I'm no pilot so I don't undersrand why the KLM Captain is getting so irritated with Shannon Control. It's a seperation saftey concern. Why does it have to be an argument to climb or decend to a safe seperation altitude? I get that it deviates from their cleared flight plan but geez dude, take the stick outta yer butt and do what's safe for you and your passengers.
Generally; We tend to see professional pilots utilizing what is called Flight Deck HRM◘ This is something I loathe and detest; Controllers responsibility is to *«maintain separation»* then if doing so gets antagonized response from Pilot then it will be immediately apparent at the hearing ~ commercial pilots are over-pressurized to trim fractional-costs to below the minimum of what it takes to get 120 Paying riders from Gate 40 at Gatwick to Gate 11 at Tim Buck 2 International Air Resort; They do not care if pilot loses a few gray hairs to get them there; It shows on the pilot sometimes
@@ChiDraconis My buddy has an ATPL and he got his commercial hours flying skydivers. Up down 15+ a day and relative freedom to fly where he wants and lots of interaction with Toronto ATC. Its wasnt ever boring. Then he started flying cargo and then passengers. He was bored stiff. Flight after flight was dark outside the windscreen.
I am on retirement and cannot expect to achieve ATP / Commercial so I study IFR Commercial to pick-up what I now see is how I should have approached the interest in flying; I would take a light military trainer and reason to attempt studies for me to be doing edge of envelope ~myself I would choose regional cargo though I realize I might get like you say way too fast; Currently I would like to have ideas for advanced weather text for pilots if you have anything;
Not by choice, I imagine. This is caused because the pilot knows he'll have a toxic French manager screaming at him for burning too much fuel because of the detour. Everyone I hear from inside KLM says things have become super commercial and toxic since the French government took over.
I think the KLM pilot wasn’t upset, but more confused because as a pilot it is very annoying when you made a plan before the flight and then he get the call that he needs to change altitude, so it was more confusion then madness I think
a plan BEFORE the flight.. while in flight, other out of control factor make things go a different way.. weather, wind to name a few.. who in the world can forecast weather at 💯 % accuracy wud be a genius..
Melvin Chen hence my comment.. the KLM pilot shud not be bitchy becoz things deviated from his flight plan.. just listen to ATC, (tho ATC too has been known to make mistakes) overall they are there to help
Yikes... Argumentative much? Only watched a few of these videos so far and ATC usually seems to be at fault, but MAN was that pilot grouchy for no reason. ATC gentleman was very professional about it despite being poked and prodded. Props to him.
Trying to figure out what I am missing here, or was this arial hissy fit really nothing more than an instruction to climb 2,000 feet to FL390 to avoid a high flying fender bender?
They're about to fly over the Atlantic Ocean, where there's no radar coverage. They fly fixed routes ("tracks") with a time separation between the planes at entry to the track.
good edit on the title VAS!!!! pilot was wrong and was an asshole to threaten the ATC with filing a report. if it was me id say ''go ahead buddy knock yourself out, write me up for keep ing you safe.''
I can see perhaps KLM running on thin margins and maybe keeping the fuel at thin margins too. 4-5 hrs crossing at 1000’ difference maybe throws them into reserves...idk. Maybe the box is telling them it wont work. 🤔 There’s the flip side to this. KLM should be getting the guys more gas and trying to push on time. But maybe wx delays down the line caused the blockage at the door. Modern times call for modern solutions lol.
In general, flying at a higher altitude reduces fuel flow so that extra 2k feet ought to save gas. Even if not, the fuel requirements for IFR flights is to get to your destination, then to your alternate, and then cruse for 45 mins.(If memory serves, I was never IFR rated.) I don't know about requirements for airline planes and crossing oceans but it is going to be at least that. You have to expect delays, weather diversions and other contingencies such as other traffic. What if the headwind is faster then forecast? What if the storms build earlier and you have to go around? If this particular change dipped into their reserves in any meaningful way then the flight was probably not legal in the first place. Nope, if we are generous that pilot just isn't having a good day and took it out on the controller.
Joder que cabezota el tío, si te mandan subir de nivel de vuelo para mantener la separación mínima pues lo haces, a menos que quieras que te visite un F-18
If i’m not mistaken, the KLM is an A330, an unusually slow aircraft for long haul. Given it’s following a 787, which is a smidge faster, wouldn’t the separation just sort itself out?
VASAviation - exactly, given the leading aircraft was outrunning the A330, although you did say the separation was smaller in such a case, wouldn’t it eventually sort itself out anyways, regardless of ATC slowing KLM?
@@jaysmith1408 The answer is no - because the separation required at SUNOT takes into account the fact the lead aircraft is faster. In broad terms, the faster they are moving apart, the less time difference you need on entry. But you still need that time on entry otherwise separation is lost as soon as the second one reports in.
F. A. Dutch people aren’t nazis bro. You’re probably mistaking them for the Germans and event then, you can’t blame a whole country for something like that.
Airline pilots get a lot of stick from the bosses if the route is changed or delayed and there's an increase in fuel burn. Pilots try to fly the route whilst minimising costs.
@@Aquavidify Safety *is* number one, but flying safe is seen as normal and the managers only look at the fuel use/time delays. If you consequently use 5% more fuel than your colleagues your boss will call you out on it. They never look at what was needed to fly safe. Until a plane crashes of course. Hindsight.
Instead of bashing the KLM, it is better to first understand why they had problems with it? I would like to know that.
4 роки тому
What he was told to do means he'll use more fuel, and probably get yelled at by his boss later. And if the rumours on KLM are correct, they're being slowly taken over by agressive authoritarian French management they were not used to. Since they were not experiencing vortex and were slower than the preceeding aircraft, you put a pilot in a situation where it's "This is evidently not dangerous, and slowly improving untill we meet the rule, and if other option is I get yelled at" while the ATC is just enforcing a paper rule without any regard for context. That's how you get different opinions.
Yeah, lots of people het snippy at work once in a while. Most aren't being recorded and being snippy by refusing to maintain safe distance to prevent a farkin midair collision.
The only time when complaining to ATC is acceptable is when you have had a 17 hour flight and you are running low on fuel, the rest of the time suck it up and do what you are asked.
Judging the flightaware data (for what it's worth) you can see how KL671 slowed down about 10 knots at that moment. They went from 470-ish knots to 461. Most probably to try and avoid the violation? Meanwhile the flying tampon was hauling ass at 515 knots. I can understand the annoyance of the KLM crew a little, but no need to be snippy. Safety first.
Safety first my a.. It is clear that KLM was cleared for a certain route, and it can well be that alternative routes offered are unfavourable in terms of e.g. weather / wind, resulting in more fuel consumption... It just increases the chance of problems and they know it, but they don't care: ATC only cares about it until waypoint SUNOT and they don't care about everything that follows... I would be pi.. off as well.
Hey, I really like your videos and have been watching you since forever, but I would appreciate if the titles werent as misleading as this one just as others have pointed out. "VERY ANGRY" isnt exactly the case here. Thanks and keep up the good work!
that's your own interpretation and many people don't agree. The pilot was obviously very angry, even threatening to file a report, but in a calm, normal voice tone. I can't understand some of you writing these comments that dont seem to match the kind of viewers of this channel.
@@vanessaruiz4705 I dont personally think it's just my interpretation. Looking objectively, when one sees a title written in capital letters saying "VERY ANGRY" it's expected that there would be at least raised voices on frequency. I don't think it's too big of a problem or a clickbait, but I dont want this channel to turn that way. Fortunately VAS listens to his subs;)
Increase of fuel burn to climb the extra 2000ft which dosen't seem much but the higher you are, more difficult it is to climb further. = More fuel burn = trouble for some airlines :)
It's a bit of a rumour in the sense that I heard this from (ex-)employees but they claim the workplace has become rather toxic. You detour slightly, arrive 10 minutes later, and a toxic French manager is going to come scream at you why you dumb 'Ollander decided to burn too much of his precious fuel and whether you can't cut some corners in safety for the bottom line. If even half of that is true, the French government / Air France taking over KLM was a massive mistake.
There could be a coordination issue between Shanwick Clearance and Shanwick Radio... How come KLM got cleared to a track on certain altitude with less than minimum required separation? As a pilot, I'd be confused as I already have a clearance to fly through selected NAT on altitude and speed negotiated with Shanwick Clearance. Clearance means "track with these parameters is yours". I don't know if filing a safety report is a proper measure for the issue, but letting NATS know something about that should work. I don't need heads to roll on ground, though... As an oceanic controller, it could feel weird to see a cleared aircraft losing separation on track. Busy day or something? I'd do the same - negotiate changes with aircraft, then reclear. After that I'll call to Ballygirreen for explanation or ask supervisor what was going on.
It's a vector(direction change) that you can give an aircraft to make deviate slightly and lose time so it crosses a waypoint at a later time so it will have separation.
Dos AussieThai if they’re that close to the boundary then no. That ‘little bit’ is probably more than the margin they have above stall speed. Which is why the controller said a dog leg would be required.
@@gypsykingg They need to delay by at least a minute before SUNOT. How slowly would they have to fly to do that? What is the stall speed of a large aircraft at 37000ft?
All eyes on the KLM aircraft. But thats not fair. This situation is caused by the Norwegian a/c, who indicated they would be overhead SUNOT @ 15:22 Shanwick sees on their own system (by groundspeed) that Norwegian wont make that time. Despite the estimate they’ve given. KLM then has to change routing or level, while they are not causing the situation. To keep it fair, Norwegian should be rerouted because they can’t adhere to their clearance. Understandably KLM objects. The long discussion doesn’t show good R/T discipline however.
gixxerman69 or maybe something even simpler, maybe he was too lazy to look at the track messages and put in a different track. Probably loads it with ACARS at the gate and is too lazy to manual enter a new one enroute.
The KLM pilot wasn't angry at all. He was simply bored and wanted a little brawl (last chance!) before entering the looooong and booooooring flight across the ocean. But it is so funny that he refers to the clearence of the other aircraft. Since when is someone else's clearence gives me priviledges for my clearence? :)
A pilot shouldnt concern about routing or clerance, because its totally under atcs discration unless pilot declares a panpan or mayday. So unprofessional.
Lol this is happening... and so klm 3 something is not the only one. But obviously the klm pilot is an arrogant type. A bit of an alpha male version. These A ..characters are scattered al over the airline transport branch. Some hide their mistakes (even small ones) by bullying and blaming the others. Some are even narcissistic and will convince everyone they where not to blame. Stupid as they are and yes they have to work for it. A remarkable ATC works it out al fine .. well done
It's possible that they were already doing that. But there are safety margins above stall speeds that must be kept. At high altitude, margin between indicated airspeed and stall speed is not all that large.
They would need to delay their arrival at the SUNOT waypoint by at least a minute. Probably they can't safely fly slowly enough to lose that much time over a relatively short distance.
midks the KLM was going faster then the Norwegian who was in front of them. Then we’re both going the same route at the same height so if the controller didn’t change that they would hit each other
SuperHpx Has there ever been any thought given to radar coverage over the Atlantic (Drone ships for example) or does it work good enough to not need coverage? Surely aircraft speed can't be so precisely that winds or other variables never come into play. Perhaps I just don't understand the system properly 🤔
@@James-oo1yq That's how it works in all oceanic airspace. It's pretty accurate as the pilots keep passing their position reports. At every waypoint in oceanic airspace, pilots report their mach number (which does take into account the wind), time of approaching the next waypoint and the controller does the separation based on the data reported from every aircraft in the airspace.
Actually I think everybody handled it well, ATC stood their ground as they had to because this was a safety requirement, and the pilot complied after only a little bit of discussion.
But it shouldn't have needed discussion because the ATC had already warned the pilot about separation and if it wasn't maintained they would have to take a dogleg to maintain it separation, KLM acknowledged, yet didn't slow down to increase separation so the controller did the only thing they could.
@@iamtheAtomicPenguin I think it means that they'll divert them out off the track then back onto the track. Essentially putting a kink in their route. That will make them cover more distance (and time) vs the straight line route, giving them the separation distance they need between the planes.
Yeah because discussing an obvious and logical instruction/clearance, and even trying to use threats to get you way (report) equals handling it well. If most pilots were like this we in the ATC would have maybe half the capacity and therefore many more delays would be happening. Don’t block the frequency with your opinions. If you think you are right, write an occurrence - but dont be suprised if you get the stick end
*Safety First*
Just as a piece of information, the minimum longitudinal separation within NAT airspace is 10 minutes for aircraft following the same route, flying at the same Flight Level and doing the same speed. In case the leading aircraft is flying at higher speed (as this can be the case. According to our tracking data NAX was only a few knots faster), the separation can be reduced to 5 minutes. These two airplanes - according to Shannon ATC - were to cross SUNOT 3 minutes apart hence violating the minimum separation. Good call, Shannon!
And good, clear explanation of the situation, VASA.
You made a typo there. The actual rule is Safety Third. Any construction worker can confirm this! 😉
So when I saw the title, I thought the KLM pilot was upset because the controller somehow put them into a minimum separation violation but he was upset that the controller was trying to take him out? WTF
Safety Always no need to put a number on it
Mike Staublin Yeah I know. I was just giving the VAS guys a hard time to be funny. Of course it should always be at the top of the list!
They’re doing their job. No arguing on the frequency and especially not about separation. The controller has his rules and regulations to follow.
not true. he obviosly has nto idea what the KLM is doing. he needed to be fire and was 2 weekes laters.
@@ilovecops5499 exactly its a mess there behind the scenes worser
Is this true? Is there any further on this?
@@ilovecops5499 Nice to see your an expert in the subject, I heard you also are a self proclaimed expert in rocket science, biology, math and have a PhD in talking shit.
@@LegionarisRex Hello Mistere Error Vermin. What university has corse sin ROCKERTES SCIENCES. YOUE EDITED YOURESD COMMETN...LOL I AM SMARTER THA YOUE, H, ha, ha ,ha!
Erik Vännström
Highlighted reply
Erik Vännström
5 hours ago (edited)
@i Love Cops Nice to see your an expert in the subject, I heard you also are a self proclaimed expert in rocket science, biology, math and have a PhD in talking shit.
Quick note speaking as a Shanwick controller. We recently introduced ADS-B coverage over the ocean, which is why we were able to clear the KLM with a 4 minute interval in the first place. We work initially off estimates given by the aircraft, but if they change and loss of separation is predicted - even if it’s at the far end of the ocean - the clearance must change, simple as that. In this case Shannon Control are only relaying to the KLM what they’ve been advised by Shanwick - they’re a superb unit and it’s really interesting to hear what they have to deal with sometimes!
Also this is a good reason why oceanic clearance should be requested as far in advance as possible, at the very least 30 mins - so that there’s plenty of time for time restrictions and the like to be communicated and aircraft to adjust their speeds accordingly to meet their estimate
Thanks for your comment! So does the new ADS-B coverage reduce the minimum 5 minutes to 4 in case the leading aircraft is faster than the following aircraft?
VASAviation - pretty much - ADS-B separations are in miles rather than minutes, so we convert it into minutes in order to apply entry time restrictions. Subject to the speed difference and routing of the aircraft you could have fewer than 4 minutes in some cases
So, is "Shan" sort of the Irish equivalent of the Scots "Mac"?
BW Acuff do you mean the ‘Shan’ in Shanwick? Shanwick is a portmanteau of Shannon and Prestwick - because the HF radio is done from Ballygirreen (next to Shannon) and control is done from Prestwick
Once over Germany I heard how a atc supervisor stepped in on the frequency to give an aircraft a good telling off. She basically told the aircraft that if they didn’t wanted to be separated by atc they would get a vector out of German airspace. The offending aircraft became very quiet after that.
Doesn’t happen very often fortunately.
Glenn Surborg I guess any scanner with air band can pick that up. It’s not scrambled.
Aufnahmen aller Art - Medienproduktion. Tonstudio, Fotografie, Video. Thats lame
@Aufnahmen aller Art - Medienproduktion. Tonstudio, Fotografie, Video. is German ATC under their own rules? As far as I know it is not illegal to monitor any ATC as long as there is no unauthorised transmission on the frequencies.
@@Bryan_tm_88 no, the ATC radio is under the jurisdiction of the Telekommunikationsgesetz (TKG) which states that listening to radio-messages that are not meant for you is illegal (I know, it's a stupid law). Technically even scanners are illegal.
Germany has lots of silly privacy laws outside in the open(I thought the USA was bad with some states require 2 party agreement, but at least it doesn't cover private property) , not allowed to use Dashcams legally (not sure how tesla cars gets away with it in Germany)
‘I think I will file a report on this’
‘I think’ sir you are just looking for a reason to be difficult.
"no need for you to file it, advise when ready to copy phone number" would be the best response to that attitude.
welcome to the dutch social culture
@@KZ-SHOP Generalising much?
@@Tiger313NL generalisations are GENERALLY correct
El Patron Amsterdam if you don’t like it get out of the country we don’t need people like you
I am altering the terms of your clearance. Pray I don’t alter it any further.
😁👍 xaklee
You bet Darth.
Haha!
Unless ATC puts you in a dangerous situation and you must react, any perceived inconvenience to your flight plans should be, as ATC stated, handled at a later time. The airwaves are not the place to debate.
Always obey ATC unless TCAS tells you otherwise. Always, ALWAYS obey TCAS.
The Crying Dutchman.
😂😂😂
indeed dutch airliner klm have a bad reputation in our country here
@@willemlenteren1485 not true
twvs lots of faults on ground bumped trucks unfriendly crew so bad there
ha....cute.....the Flying and the Crying....
Love the regular uploads 🙏
Love you love'em!
no need to tell that you're gonna file a report, just surprise the atc. LOL
KLM 671, Shannon here confirming you are a Delta, India, Charlie, Kilo. Over
It's out not over. Over means your waiting for a response, out means your finished conversation
Interesting... I learned “indigo” as “I” in the phonetic alphabet. I see “India” is more common, wonder why?
@@drnogueiras8783 look up NATO spelling alphabet.
Karol C I know the NATO phonetic alphabet, I’m just curious why they teach India and indigo in different professions.
Karol C apparently police, fire fighters, and some military use indigo while other professions and military do not. Just wonder why.
I do numerous Atlantic crossings each year ( or did, up to March ) and I’ve never heard anyone get their knickers in a twist like the Dutch one here. Can’t always get what you want , need to be agile enough to pick an alternate
But did you work for a company where a 1 minute detour equals you getting yelled at by a manager for burning too much fuel, like happens since Air France and the toxic French corporate culture took over KLM?
I hope you didn't. But he has to work there.
@@fredpuntdroad8701 he doesnt Have to. He can quit and fly somewhere else no?
@@mansnotprot1544
Uh, no. Pilots have to fight to get a job these days.
@@fredpuntdroad8701 in 2019?? Lmao, please.....
In pilot terms, the KLM is air-raging. This is the air-equivalent of a road-rage where you drive the other person off the road into a fireball, then track that person's family down and butcher them.
I love when pilots argue with ATC over simple things like this. They’re there to help you, not just piss you off. Theres always a reason. Just follow instructions.
i bet the pilot did this just to be on the safe side with his company, like "i reported it, not my problem"
**〈〈think different〉〉** I agree, the report isn’t the part I’m talking about, just the arguing. Just let them know you’ll file a report and deal with it later.
@@tatoween1 Yeah once they make the call... they arent going to change it...even if a complaint is filed.
Pilots are a crazy bunch.
00Billy isn’t that what the authority going to determine whether a violation indeed exist
ATC: A-Type personalities
Pilots of all kinds: A-Type personalities
That Dutchman was seriously in need of a pancake. Either that or he had inadvertantly sat down on the control column and had the proverbial stick up his ....
Didn’t know they hired Karens at KLM
Yes, KLM stands for Karen Luchtvaart Maatschappij ;)
@@freerkottema LoL
The KLM Karens keep their customers alive... I will have a Karen pilot any day over a turkish "bought my license at AliExpress" missing a runway or a guiness slugging gargoyle manning the radio and the magic ball...
They are dutch. A country that thinks they are Gods gift to the world while actually being Europe's most retarded country.
@@IBo99608 just out of curiosity, which country are you from?
It’s good that for Private A/C international flight I can set a FL to 430-450 and never worry of NAT tracks whatsoever .
advantages of flying gulfstreams and expensives rockets like those ones hahaha
Last time KLM was this impatient, they went down a runway at the wrong time and crashed into a Panam passenger jet.
I was thinking the same thing.
that was like 50 years ago... But let's see about how many time a goose caused major damage...oh wait... Ask Scully that...
Which airline still exists of those two ?
Also: the Pan Am pilots ignored ATM instructions to take exit number three....instead they were stubborn and aimed to take number 4.
@@koningbolo4700
Why don’t you think every time a plane sucks in a goose they won’t bring up Sully’s name in the future?
@@atariandre5014 KLM is still around, though it has merged with Air Fucking France...
DRAMA OVER THE HIGH SEAS
Idk why i love these so much lol
There was no need to discuss this over the radio. Shanwick control offered a couple of solutions and it is up to the pilots to chose which one suits them better. This way you are not only collaborative but also maintain mutual respect.
I bet KLM never filed anything. Don't think he'd want his chief pilot to hear the tape....
It sounded like a different voice from the KLM at the end of the clip. I know it would never be available, but it would be interesting to listen to the cockpit voice recording to see what was going on then. Was there a switch to a second crew? Did the captain and first officer switch roles between pilot flying and pilot monitoring? I wonder if the change happened to de-escalate the situation. (KLM flight 671 is from Amsterdam to Montreal and is scheduled to take about 7:15 today. Not sure if that is long enough to require a second crew on board.)
A very simple “I got it” goes a long ways. Then discuss amongst yourself in the flight deck. Sometimes it’s easier to do that.
To me it just seems as simple as the KLM pilot was initially frustrated by the instructions, had a bit of a moan, but then ultimately settled down and accepted them. No massive drama really such a crew change ffs.
@@RiskyIOM It is interesting that every single fuckin video someone posts that, lol - almost like bots, they always think the deescalation is because of a crew change.
@Dank Farrik why not 3? Its a long flight
@Dank Farrik how much larger is the cabin crew in a very long flight like Amsterdam - Buenos Aires?
Wonder if he was just fixated on the loaded track because he was too lazy to check the track messages and manually input a new track??
bingo!
Also to input the new fix in the time required/Available would be kind of difficult. These guys have to think about their work load whilst up there. Although the aircraft does fly itself it requires a lot of data input, To change an already inputted flight plan mid flight is time consuming and can cause problems later down the line. One slip up or wrong button press could cause a cascade of issues later in the flight which is an avoidable distraction when they are supposed to be monitoring the condition and performance of the aircraft. This is why the flight plan is set out/input at the start of the day and clearances given at designated times, so they know when they need to change it and have the most time available to think these things through whilst not impacting flight safety.
Phil Macken it’s not that hard. It is an inconvenience but it’s part of the job. We have to do it all the time. His response to a routine part of the job, a clearance change, was juvenile at best
I think it may have to do with how heavy the aircraft was and climbing to fl390 when initiating the crossing would probably mean quite a higher fuel burn in order to reach the cruise level. Captain probably has to justify the deviation from the planned optimal cruise level
@@PokeMePT ATC told me so is a good enough excuse
Hmmm... seems like we're missing quite some audio here to really understand what was going on. I mean... why were these aircraft so close to each other? Why did the KLM captain think that the Norshuttle wasn't at the altitude it was supposed to be? There seems to be a lot of information on the reasons why the KLM captain was so annoyed that cannot be heard in this video.
The Norshuttle was at the the correct altitude just when the flights converged on the entry points the planned time between them of 5 minutes with the lead aircraft being faster and therefore the gap increasing didn't happen as planned, this could be any number of reasons.
The trouble is with the KLM is that i thinks because the NAX said he would be there at :22 and that should be good enough and the controller should accept that. The controller didn't accept that and decided to use his info from the radar which was he would be there until :23. So the controller wanted him to either dog leg to increase the distance slightly or change tracks.
The controller needs to assure separation which his system shows was going to below the minimum separation.
I assume just reducing speed by a little bit for 5 minutes wasn't a good option.
@@AirspotterUK You'd be quite surprised by how little difference a Mach change makes to a crossing time. A rule of thumb I learned was .01M equates to approx 6 knots at cruise level
I'm no pilot so I don't undersrand why the KLM Captain is getting so irritated with Shannon Control. It's a seperation saftey concern. Why does it have to be an argument to climb or decend to a safe seperation altitude? I get that it deviates from their cleared flight plan but geez dude, take the stick outta yer butt and do what's safe for you and your passengers.
Generally;
We tend to see professional pilots utilizing what is called Flight Deck HRM◘
This is something I loathe and detest; Controllers responsibility is to *«maintain separation»* then if doing so gets antagonized response from Pilot then it will be immediately apparent at the hearing ~ commercial pilots are over-pressurized to trim fractional-costs to below the minimum of what it takes to get 120 Paying riders from Gate 40 at Gatwick to Gate 11 at Tim Buck 2 International Air Resort;
They do not care if pilot loses a few gray hairs to get them there;
It shows on the pilot sometimes
@@ChiDraconis My buddy has an ATPL and he got his commercial hours flying skydivers. Up down 15+ a day and relative freedom to fly where he wants and lots of interaction with Toronto ATC. Its wasnt ever boring.
Then he started flying cargo and then passengers. He was bored stiff.
Flight after flight was dark outside the windscreen.
I am on retirement and cannot expect to achieve ATP / Commercial so I study IFR Commercial to pick-up what I now see is how I should have approached the interest in flying; I would take a light military trainer and reason to attempt studies for me to be doing edge of envelope ~myself I would choose regional cargo though I realize I might get like you say way too fast; Currently I would like to have ideas for advanced weather text for pilots if you have anything;
The pilot-version of a Karen
Not by choice, I imagine. This is caused because the pilot knows he'll have a toxic French manager screaming at him for burning too much fuel because of the detour.
Everyone I hear from inside KLM says things have become super commercial and toxic since the French government took over.
Capt Mierenneuker at the controls I hear
That'll be captain "hairsplitter" in english
I think the KLM pilot wasn’t upset, but more confused because as a pilot it is very annoying when you made a plan before the flight and then he get the call that he needs to change altitude, so it was more confusion then madness I think
a plan BEFORE the flight.. while in flight, other out of control factor make things go a different way.. weather, wind to name a few.. who in the world can forecast weather at 💯 % accuracy wud be a genius..
janggut tok that’s the job of a pilot. If everything goes like automated with no deviations, u won’t need a pilot anymore.
Melvin Chen hence my comment.. the KLM pilot shud not be bitchy becoz things deviated from his flight plan.. just listen to ATC, (tho ATC too has been known to make mistakes) overall they are there to help
such exciting material
How did you hear about this in the first place? Liked.
Go ahead, file your report. Now, do as you were instructed.
Yikes... Argumentative much? Only watched a few of these videos so far and ATC usually seems to be at fault, but MAN was that pilot grouchy for no reason. ATC gentleman was very professional about it despite being poked and prodded. Props to him.
Trying to figure out what I am missing here, or was this arial hissy fit really nothing more than an instruction to climb 2,000 feet to FL390 to avoid a high flying fender bender?
come on klm 671 you know the score. must be having a bad day tbf but keep it off the chat
I think this was the first time I understood a Shanwick controller on the first attempt.. 😮
I thought in the interest of safety first, the pilots would follow the ATC instructions. They're there to help keep aircraft safely apart.
Oceanic routes, flight information regions, and HF radio procedures are confusing, but I'm learning :D
The first plane needs to listen to the gas gas gas meme on the internet
what does "balance remains unchanged" mean?
the remaining oceanic clearance is the same, just a level change
I don't know how I ended up here. But as I can understand is that you shouldn't argue with traffic control? Just nod and move along right?
I understand the frustration...but write a report? We barely write safety reports...we’re too lazy to file a bullshit report after 10hrs flight😬🙈👍
Introduce the pilot to your friend Don Derop!
That KLM pilot’s wife cheated too many times
I don’t understand this time separation, can someone explain ?
They're about to fly over the Atlantic Ocean, where there's no radar coverage. They fly fixed routes ("tracks") with a time separation between the planes at entry to the track.
God bless Ireland
Im assuming it meant to say the KLM is slightly faster than NAX?
Probably smoother up there at FL 390.
good edit on the title VAS!!!! pilot was wrong and was an asshole to threaten the ATC with filing a report. if it was me id say ''go ahead buddy knock yourself out, write me up for keep ing you safe.''
Well discussing is not the way in aviation nor everywhere else safety first reports can be made later.
I can see perhaps KLM running on thin margins and maybe keeping the fuel at thin margins too. 4-5 hrs crossing at 1000’ difference maybe throws them into reserves...idk. Maybe the box is telling them it wont work. 🤔 There’s the flip side to this. KLM should be getting the guys more gas and trying to push on time. But maybe wx delays down the line caused the blockage at the door. Modern times call for modern solutions lol.
In general, flying at a higher altitude reduces fuel flow so that extra 2k feet ought to save gas. Even if not, the fuel requirements for IFR flights is to get to your destination, then to your alternate, and then cruse for 45 mins.(If memory serves, I was never IFR rated.) I don't know about requirements for airline planes and crossing oceans but it is going to be at least that. You have to expect delays, weather diversions and other contingencies such as other traffic. What if the headwind is faster then forecast? What if the storms build earlier and you have to go around?
If this particular change dipped into their reserves in any meaningful way then the flight was probably not legal in the first place.
Nope, if we are generous that pilot just isn't having a good day and took it out on the controller.
Joder que cabezota el tío, si te mandan subir de nivel de vuelo para mantener la separación mínima pues lo haces, a menos que quieras que te visite un F-18
If i’m not mistaken, the KLM is an A330, an unusually slow aircraft for long haul. Given it’s following a 787, which is a smidge faster, wouldn’t the separation just sort itself out?
I said the 787 was slightly faster
VASAviation - exactly, given the leading aircraft was outrunning the A330, although you did say the separation was smaller in such a case, wouldn’t it eventually sort itself out anyways, regardless of ATC slowing KLM?
@@jaysmith1408 The answer is no - because the separation required at SUNOT takes into account the fact the lead aircraft is faster. In broad terms, the faster they are moving apart, the less time difference you need on entry. But you still need that time on entry otherwise separation is lost as soon as the second one reports in.
KLM pilot sounds like a big baby who thinks he owns the skies. Would love to know if any complaint was filed and, if so, what the result was.
better that, than to do a vanZanten
@@lukasz.szyper - yeah, that was my thought too, but I kinda self-censored.
@@lukasz.szyper "We're going!"
F. A. Dutch people aren’t nazis bro. You’re probably mistaking them for the Germans and event then, you can’t blame a whole country for something like that.
@F. A. yes its still arrogant mentality a 777 in hongkong was also they ignore a tower
That's you telt, KLM....
And how many crossing does this KLM pilot have??
Airline pilots get a lot of stick from the bosses if the route is changed or delayed and there's an increase in fuel burn. Pilots try to fly the route whilst minimising costs.
So safety is not number one.
@@Aquavidify Safety *is* number one, but flying safe is seen as normal and the managers only look at the fuel use/time delays. If you consequently use 5% more fuel than your colleagues your boss will call you out on it. They never look at what was needed to fly safe. Until a plane crashes of course. Hindsight.
Instead of bashing the KLM, it is better to first understand why they had problems with it? I would like to know that.
What he was told to do means he'll use more fuel, and probably get yelled at by his boss later. And if the rumours on KLM are correct, they're being slowly taken over by agressive authoritarian French management they were not used to.
Since they were not experiencing vortex and were slower than the preceeding aircraft, you put a pilot in a situation where it's "This is evidently not dangerous, and slowly improving untill we meet the rule, and if other option is I get yelled at" while the ATC is just enforcing a paper rule without any regard for context.
That's how you get different opinions.
Yeah, lots of people het snippy at work once in a while. Most aren't being recorded and being snippy by refusing to maintain safe distance to prevent a farkin midair collision.
Have a smoke you Dutch Smokey boy
The only time when complaining to ATC is acceptable is when you have had a 17 hour flight and you are running low on fuel, the rest of the time suck it up and do what you are asked.
Was that a airplane from Norwegian?
Affirm.
@@VASAviation roger
Another day on flight simulator.
Judging the flightaware data (for what it's worth) you can see how KL671 slowed down about 10 knots at that moment. They went from 470-ish knots to 461. Most probably to try and avoid the violation? Meanwhile the flying tampon was hauling ass at 515 knots. I can understand the annoyance of the KLM crew a little, but no need to be snippy. Safety first.
And now I have to scroll all the way back up to see the "flying tampon". I'm gonna file a report on this :) Nice description.
You sir, get a like for "flying tampon". Actually caused a tear from the laughter.
Yeah ATC well done. KLM almost had it right was it not for the report filing moaning.
What did they mean when they said FL390 on track Charlie and FL370 and FL380 on track Delta. What are these tracks?
parallel air lanes over which to cross the ocean
Austin Powers…..And the DUTCH! 😂😂
Buddy was hurting for a spinning
History shows when KLM pilots get impatient bad things happen....
:o
That’s a stupid thing to say
exactly think of Tenerife time as well isiots
is a dangerous airline hear in holland have it a bad reputation.
@@willemlenteren1485 Bullshit
and there is a other negative klm so sick of that airlinerhe have to wait like whatssupossed happent on tenerife
Yes sir its not a good thing on this moment there
Could someone explain why the KLM didn't want to climb for separation? It's clear he does not want to change anything by why?
Higher fuel flow, less speedmargin (coffin corner), different winds, tropopause with more radiation, turbulence... many many reasons.
Safety first my a..
It is clear that KLM was cleared for a certain route, and it can well be that alternative routes offered are unfavourable in terms of e.g. weather / wind, resulting in more fuel consumption... It just increases the chance of problems and they know it, but they don't care: ATC only cares about it until waypoint SUNOT and they don't care about everything that follows... I would be pi.. off as well.
Hey, I really like your videos and have been watching you since forever, but I would appreciate if the titles werent as misleading as this one just as others have pointed out. "VERY ANGRY" isnt exactly the case here. Thanks and keep up the good work!
Got it
that's your own interpretation and many people don't agree. The pilot was obviously very angry, even threatening to file a report, but in a calm, normal voice tone. I can't understand some of you writing these comments that dont seem to match the kind of viewers of this channel.
@@vanessaruiz4705 I dont personally think it's just my interpretation. Looking objectively, when one sees a title written in capital letters saying "VERY ANGRY" it's expected that there would be at least raised voices on frequency. I don't think it's too big of a problem or a clickbait, but I dont want this channel to turn that way. Fortunately VAS listens to his subs;)
If i understand all he had to do was increase his altitude by 2000 feet. Is that a big deal?
Increase of fuel burn to climb the extra 2000ft which dosen't seem much but the higher you are, more difficult it is to climb further. = More fuel burn = trouble for some airlines :)
@@TheDaar97 Also if they are climbing into a stronger head wind, fuel burn will be higher.
IIRC, this is not the first video with KLM complaining on freq in Ireland...why?
they complaint always
It's a bit of a rumour in the sense that I heard this from (ex-)employees but they claim the workplace has become rather toxic. You detour slightly, arrive 10 minutes later, and a toxic French manager is going to come scream at you why you dumb 'Ollander decided to burn too much of his precious fuel and whether you can't cut some corners in safety for the bottom line.
If even half of that is true, the French government / Air France taking over KLM was a massive mistake.
There could be a coordination issue between Shanwick Clearance and Shanwick Radio... How come KLM got cleared to a track on certain altitude with less than minimum required separation?
As a pilot, I'd be confused as I already have a clearance to fly through selected NAT on altitude and speed negotiated with Shanwick Clearance. Clearance means "track with these parameters is yours". I don't know if filing a safety report is a proper measure for the issue, but letting NATS know something about that should work. I don't need heads to roll on ground, though...
As an oceanic controller, it could feel weird to see a cleared aircraft losing separation on track. Busy day or something? I'd do the same - negotiate changes with aircraft, then reclear. After that I'll call to Ballygirreen for explanation or ask supervisor what was going on.
NAX going to slow maybe for fuel reasons? And if not.... headwind change that will affect KLM later aswell and increase the separation.
What date was this?
You always have date at the beginning.
My bad! Thank you 😂
What is ''dogleg'' ?
It's a vector(direction change) that you can give an aircraft to make deviate slightly and lose time so it crosses a waypoint at a later time so it will have separation.
There s always an arrogant dutch pilot around
Can't KLM slow down just a little bit to make the separation wider instead of arguing with the controller?
Dos AussieThai if they’re that close to the boundary then no. That ‘little bit’ is probably more than the margin they have above stall speed. Which is why the controller said a dog leg would be required.
Could also cause a domino effect for the aircraft that might be following the KLM they may be at minimum sep too.
@@SergeantSarge - They are no where near stall speed. Stop talking about things you don't know anything about.
they arument always
@@gypsykingg They need to delay by at least a minute before SUNOT. How slowly would they have to fly to do that? What is the stall speed of a large aircraft at 37000ft?
Last time a KLM didn't follow ATC instructions, hundreds of people died.
Were you already born then?
All eyes on the KLM aircraft. But thats not fair.
This situation is caused by the Norwegian a/c, who indicated they would be overhead SUNOT @ 15:22
Shanwick sees on their own system (by groundspeed) that Norwegian wont make that time. Despite the estimate they’ve given.
KLM then has to change routing or level, while they are not causing the situation. To keep it fair, Norwegian should be rerouted because they can’t adhere to their clearance.
Understandably KLM objects.
The long discussion doesn’t show good R/T discipline however.
KLM again with their pushy bullshit attitude. Tenerife m'fers, Tenerife!!!
Can someone explain why the pilot got angry?
Different track might have meant higher fuel burn or possibly later arrival time due to winds.
gixxerman69 or maybe something even simpler, maybe he was too lazy to look at the track messages and put in a different track. Probably loads it with ACARS at the gate and is too lazy to manual enter a new one enroute.
Understood, thanks guys
The KLM pilot wasn't angry at all. He was simply bored and wanted a little brawl (last chance!) before entering the looooong and booooooring flight across the ocean. But it is so funny that he refers to the clearence of the other aircraft. Since when is someone else's clearence gives me priviledges for my clearence? :)
No, because he wasn't.
A pilot shouldnt concern about routing or clerance, because its totally under atcs discration unless pilot declares a panpan or mayday. So unprofessional.
Should have just cancelled and gone VFR. That would show um'.
Lol this is happening... and so klm 3 something is not the only one.
But obviously the klm pilot is an arrogant type. A bit of an alpha male version. These A ..characters are scattered al over the airline transport branch. Some hide their mistakes (even small ones) by bullying and blaming the others. Some are even narcissistic and will convince everyone they where not to blame.
Stupid as they are and yes they have to work for it.
A remarkable ATC works it out al fine .. well done
Too harsh to the pilot, I think both professionally worked out and solved the issue. I see a bit of respect on either side.. Thats just my 2$
very arrogant they have a bad reputation herer i never fly them cabin crew are also very unfriendly
The cockpit door is not large enough for the head of this pilot.
The pilot is wasting the controllers time with his butthurt whining.
You do not conduct debates on frequency. Discussions should take place on the ground.
I thought a pilot would be happy to climb to a higher altitutde.
Not necessarily if the tailwind is reported to be much slower then
No way the ATC will change their mind, even if they're wrong OR you suggesting something different...
Couldn't the KLM just fly a little bit slower?
It's possible that they were already doing that. But there are safety margins above stall speeds that must be kept. At high altitude, margin between indicated airspeed and stall speed is not all that large.
They would need to delay their arrival at the SUNOT waypoint by at least a minute. Probably they can't safely fly slowly enough to lose that much time over a relatively short distance.
What actually happened? I don' t really understand the situation.
midks the KLM was going faster then the Norwegian who was in front of them. Then we’re both going the same route at the same height so if the controller didn’t change that they would hit each other
Read the pinned reply.
@@CAPFlyer yeah but why did the pilot say they were inappropriately cleared? They and the other plane?
SuperHpx Has there ever been any thought given to radar coverage over the Atlantic (Drone ships for example) or does it work good enough to not need coverage? Surely aircraft speed can't be so precisely that winds or other variables never come into play. Perhaps I just don't understand the system properly 🤔
@@James-oo1yq That's how it works in all oceanic airspace. It's pretty accurate as the pilots keep passing their position reports. At every waypoint in oceanic airspace, pilots report their mach number (which does take into account the wind), time of approaching the next waypoint and the controller does the separation based on the data reported from every aircraft in the airspace.
West clare small farmer in charge
THE FAT CONTROLLER HAS SPOKEN!
99% of the time when there is an issue between ATC and the pilot ATC is right. With that in mind I *never* argue with ATC on freq.....EVER.
why so mad hes going to have higher ground speed and better performance and fuel burn. cry me a river mate jeez
Actually I think everybody handled it well, ATC stood their ground as they had to because this was a safety requirement, and the pilot complied after only a little bit of discussion.
But it shouldn't have needed discussion because the ATC had already warned the pilot about separation and if it wasn't maintained they would have to take a dogleg to maintain it separation, KLM acknowledged, yet didn't slow down to increase separation so the controller did the only thing they could.
@@wizbang68 What does it mean "to take a dogleg" in this context?
@@iamtheAtomicPenguin I think it means that they'll divert them out off the track then back onto the track. Essentially putting a kink in their route. That will make them cover more distance (and time) vs the straight line route, giving them the separation distance they need between the planes.
Yeah because discussing an obvious and logical instruction/clearance, and even trying to use threats to get you way (report) equals handling it well. If most pilots were like this we in the ATC would have maybe half the capacity and therefore many more delays would be happening. Don’t block the frequency with your opinions. If you think you are right, write an occurrence - but dont be suprised if you get the stick end
@@Genthar Thanks for the explanation. I did not know what it meant either.
Riveting..