Catrike Dangerous Modifications
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- Опубліковано 23 лис 2024
- By design, Catrikes are safe, stable and fun to ride. But, sometimes - SOMETIMES - internet hucksters turn one into what it's not supposed to be: unsafe and unstable.
Mel explains where this trike went off the rails - WAY OFF THE RAILS - and what RPDX must do to make it safe again.
An internet trike operation in Utah replaced the stock 20" wheels with 24" and 26" wheels - raising the seat position and center-of-gravity over 20% - without ANY corresponding increase in wheel track. Worse still, the use of flimsy aluminum extenders work against the inherent rigidity of Catrike's chain stays -creating a floppy, sloppy, dangerous rear wheel with little torsional stability.
RPDX's solution? Restoring the trike to Catrike Spec by re-installing 20" wheels and removing the aluminum extenders -so the rear wheel fit in the frame drop outs -as Catrike designed
What's the lesson here? It's ALWAYS the same: When you buy off the internet, you never know what you'll get -but, it's often not what you thought you were getting. The ONLY way to find the trike that's right for you is to TEST RIDE. There are fabulous brick and mortar trike stores throughout the country. When you're ready for a trike, go visit a REAL trike store!
Well, I guess I will be the first person to say I have this modification on my Catrike Road AR and I love it. I am currently running the 20 inch rear wheel with the extenders. Gives me the same gearing, but with a longer wheelbase it gives a smoother ride. Have not found the trike tippy with either the 20” or the 26” rear.
America is a wonderful place. You can put your personal opinions into operation through your purchases. But, the fact remains that the Extenders are a demonstrably-dangerous modification to a trike that requires no modification. If I had to speculate, the "squishiness" of the extenders serves as a kind of suspension -smoothing your ride -but at the expense of longterm frame integrity. For fun, you might call the Catrike factory and ask if their drop outs ever break and, if so, whether there is ANY specific modification that routinely causes that breakage!
just wait till smn places a 29 inch rear wheel.
...I would add, the majority of rear-wheel flex has to do with the construction of the wheel itself...the stiffness of the spoke configuration and wheel axle, not so much the flex of the chain stay arms.
The example I'd use is the stock 700c on slightly earlier models of the Catrike 700. This was really wobbly as you said in your video. Stock from the factory. If I remember correctly, Catrike stiffened their rear wheel arrangement on their 2018-ish 700 model upgrade, solid rear thru-axle and all. I guess I'm saying, it's not entirely the aftermarket chain stay adapters sold by that online store.
Stephen Thank you for sharing. Since I personally examined the trike, I can state without qualification that the flex came principally from from the chain stay extenders. As evidence, I'm willing to wager that you don't have the hand strength to flex Catrike chainstays -or any manufacturer (nor, do I). With not a lot of effort, I flexed Utah's extenders. As a knock-on effect, the stays also flexed.
@@RecumbentPDX ...well I'll agree with you there. The chain stays on a Catrike are solid...lol...if you need to spread 'em even a silly millimeter you've got a workout. And torsionally they're like a rock. Thanks!
I have a hub motor in my rear wheel which broke the original Catrike rear wheel dropouts. It was unrepairable. I bought these UT rear wheel extensions and installed them to fix my trike so it was rideable again. I have a 20 inch wheel in the extensions and I am elated with this setup. My trike handles great and this is working superb for me. The trike corners like it is running on rails. So I can't agree with you on these extensions. I am very thankful Utah Trikes offers them. My trike would be sitting in a junk heap without them. In my opinion Catrike needs to improve their rear wheel dropouts as they are inherently weak and underbuilt. There are other Catrike owners who have had this same problem of the rear wheel dropouts breaking.
Since you didn’t purchase your trike from our shop, I’ve never seen it firsthand. But, I can state - with a high degree of certainty - that the damage incurred was NOT a design defect from Catrike, but instead caused by one or more of the following 1) too-large motor sizing 2) poor installation or 3) improper user care.
Catrikes were NOT designed to accept hub motor kits - doing so risked a voided warranty. That said, between 2015 and 2018, our shop installed over two hundred 250 to 500 watt hub motors from Bionx and GoSwissDrive without a frame failure of any kind. The key was properly mating the motor drive force to the frame. A properly-sized and installed torque washer (cart.electricscooterparts.com/hub-motor-torque-washer-for-12mm-axle-type-a-3mm-thick) ensured the motor had enough purchase on the non-drive side drop outs. Cap nuts holding the motor axle in the dropouts would then need to be torque wrenched to the motor manufacturer’s specified Newton-Meters. Finally, wedge-locking washers (www.nord-lock.com/nord-lock/) were required to ensure that, having torqued the cap nuts to the correct Newton-Meters, they maintained that position under the torsional load of the motor and the vibration of the road.
Failure to do any of those items would cause the torque of the motor to spin independent of the frame -destroying the dropouts in the process.
Clearly, you or your installer failed at these required tasks. That’s not a Catrike problem.
There’s good news, though: Having destroyed your Catrike through misuse, you really can’t further damage it. So - other than the risk that the destroyed the dropouts don’t have enough remaining material for a reliable physical connection as required on the Utah dropout extenders (ua-cam.com/video/gLgJEukTmu4/v-deo.html) with the resulting risk of the whole rear end coming apart while you’re cornering “like it’s riding on rails” and your being injured - I don’t see much else that can go wrong.
The wonderful country that we live in allows folks to do what they want with what they own. My professional opinion is that the Utah extenders are poorly-designed and dangerous. Your opinion differs. I wish you a great time out on the road.
I ride a Dumont and after the derailleur initially betrayed me because of a poor set up and caused me to fly off into the air, I considered mounting an internal hub; however, the avenue I explored recommended a chain stay extender so the hub would fit, which as you point out pushes the trike beyond the boundaries the engineers at Catrike intended, so I scotched that plan. Fortunately, my local shop finally got the derailleur properly set up and I've been sailing along just fine... this is a great video that points out the poor approach that one of those large online houses push out into the marketplace... way to step up and tell the true facts Mel!
I do hear what you are saying but the reality is that recumbent trikes are very difficult to see and try unless you live on the coasts in big cities. I’m from Ohio and just got into recumbents my only chance to try a trike was to visit a person selling a used Utah Trike and trying it. I did end up buying it. Absolutely love it. Internet buying may have issues but in many places its the only real place to go? Also Utah has probably done more to get trikes out in the public awareness than most, and may have pushed manufactures to create more creative electric solutions? Are they non engineers pushing the boundaries- yes.
Lisbon Rails to Trails right in there in Ohio is considered among the best trike shops in the country. But, if you're hundreds of miles from the nearest shop with no way to get there, I can see the benefits of an online purchase. But, Utah is pushing out-of-spec builds that void manufacturers' warranties. Utah's OWN warranty - which requires buyers to pay roundtrip freight, labor and any additional parts - is functionally non-existent (www.utahtrikes.com/UT2-Store_Policies.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwxOymBhAFEiwAnodBLGafaZZLbk6ieWsrRxAyItrLx7Ohcch7mGwGAUsrAbBwdpn89UX-mhoCDlgQAvD_BwE). I am unaware of any "more creative solutions" in our industry spurred on by Utah. I can't speak for most store owners, but for both business and legal liability reasons, we won't touch their trikes EXCEPT to restore them to stock build.
@@RecumbentPDXCrazy Lisbon Rails to Trails is actually pretty close to me! Too much of a rookie, I guess. Am going to Cycle Com in Ohio in September should be able to test ride about all the brands. Thanks for your expertise!
Thanks for a great video. I like the "not to my taste" answer. That is why Catrike doesn't warranty the un named companies modifications. The work done is sub par with no real engineering backing. I've ridden recumbent trikes since 2004 , bought Catrike 700# 32, Sept.2006. They make a fine product, don't need modifications. Keep up the good work Mel ,all the best. RF
Thank you !
Totally agree, beware of modifications that are not approved by the manufacturer. As for buying off the internet, I bought my Dumont off of Marketplace. I made an 8 1/2 hour drive to see it and test rode it before I bought it. Prior to this I had ridden several trikes and determined the Dumont was the trike for me. And what I bought was a 3 year old Catrike Dumont in like new condition and at a price that was more than worth driving for a day to get. If you do decide to by used, don’t buy a trike that’s been heavily modified. Do test ride it, never buy one sight unseen or untested. And if possible take to a bike shop and have it looked over for potential issues before you put down any cash. A seller unwilling to let do these things should not be trusted. After you get your trike, temping that it is to just go for a ride, take it into a qualified mechanic, one that is qualified to work on your particular trike and have it serviced, nothing is more annoying then the get down the trail and find out your have a bad tire because the rubber is older than you chain derailer or chain failed because it should have been replaced.
I have ICE FS HD and purchased from the internet site near the Wasacht mountain range. A bracket for the Bafang on the boom. Speaking of kits. I am happy that I did the install install myself. The shop in Arizona, hugely up marked the the last install. And when my battery went, the disappointment of workmanship hacks . Example the battery mains where shortened and crimped with 16 gauge connections… The shop mentioned, sells a built up Rolofh.. A huge mark up for the kits. Thanks for the videoliving in the land of your on your own has made a mechanic out of me… long wait times for repairs. Thanks🎉
We've seen those 16 gauge crimps. I suppose that's sufficient if you live in the desert. Anywhere else -we can say from customers' personal experience- a disaster
Carefully measured comments Mel, and well said. If you're right and the mods are not particularly safe or sound I don't think there's a need to name the provider/manufacturer/dealer. People have been tinkering, 'upgrading', and modifying trikes from the beginning to improve their performance and in some cases just to personalize them. I've watched a fair amount of this for about the past 15 years, and it's clear that not every mod is a good mod. And speaking of radical modifications, Holey Spokes was one of the wildest Catrike frame mods of all times. Unfortunately I don't know how to attach a picture of Bruce's piece of drilled-out art, and I didn't see where it inspired a lot of imitators, unlike the dropout extenders. If a potential customer is new to recumbent trikes I completely agree with you that the best thing to do is to visit a bike shop or two and try out as many different brands and models as you can. It's the best way to insure that you're getting what will work best for you. And if you think using a local dealer as your showroom to make your choice and then buying on the internet is a bright idea, you'll get what you deserve when you trying taking your new trike into your 'showroom' dealer for service.
"a picture of Bruce's piece of drilled-out art". Catrike called that thing a "drilled out piece of shit" And, yes, I got that quote directly from the source. As always, thank you for your thoughtful observations. Hope you and Travis are doing well. He's a good dog!
Great content Mel. Great to see you out here. You were the best to deal with when we bought our trikes
Thank you so much. It's always nice to hear from customers!
Totally agree with your video and I've been building, riding, and working on trikes for nearly 20 years. I have experience with most brands too. I see no reason for any trike to have front wheels larger than 20 inch. The only good reason to have a larger wheel on the rear is if you are a strong rider and need taller gearing. If you put 24" or 26" wheels on the front of a tadpole trike, you will need a 40 acre field to simply make a turn. There are reasons engineers design things the way they do.
Thank you. We JUST got back from Catrike. Was fortunate to spend time with Justin and Marco -their phenomenal engineers. They spend thousands of hours designing each trike -from concept to CAD-CAM to prototype to production. They know PRECISELY what they're doing. The guys in Utah have zero idea.
Hear hear! I bought my 700 in 2008. Since then I have seen all kinds of mods. My response has always been, “If you want a 700, buy a 700,” or whatever trike you really want. Because of the heightened CG, as you mentioned, I didn’t even like the change to 20” wheels in the front, (though I understand the pressure from customers to have more tire options). I tried it and after years of 16” wheels, I felt like I was up high on a Freightliner. I would never risk the kinds of cornering that I do with my original 700, entering a 90° corner at 27mph:
ua-cam.com/video/T8ipMKhmPRc/v-deo.htmlsi=iU9GdtVFHz9_sKh8
I've ridden behind tadpole trikes before, and going into a corner the chain stay does noticeably flex due to the leverage side load the wheel is exerting. When you extend the chain stay and put a larger rear wheel on, then those same cornering forces that create a twisting lever on the chain stay are definitely increased. I'm a licensed aircraft mechanic and worked for 32 years at Delta Airlines. My education included formal training in physics. Bottom line is, if Catrike the company does not approve modifications, like Mel talked about, they shouldn't be done. The question is ; Does extending the chain stay assembly and putting a larger wheel on void Catrike's warranty ?
Technically, ANY modifications to the trike void the warranty, though my primary concern is safety, not warranty. Only this year has Catrike put a 500w motor limit in writing. I absolutely lose my cool over 750, 1000 and higher motors. The trikes just aren't built to withstand torsional loads several times what any human can produce.
I'm glad you're calling this out for what it is. I was always wondering how these modifications by (not to be
named) could be considered a good thing.
Sometimes, simple common sense is ALL that's lacking. This mutant build embodies this!
I love my Catrike Road, I only wish it had front suspension, but don't really care and it would add too much weight anyway. An electric motor might be nice, but then you have a huge added weight, and if the motor or battery failed further out than I can ride back, it would be a disaster. I wish you guys were up here instead of Portland. Portland traffic is like pulling out your toenails with pliers. We used to live there but moved just North of Vancouver. No income taxes here, much less traffic but we are getting too many people moving here now and traffic is a problem now. The Road is the last cycle of my life, I'm going to be 74 in March, and couldn't afford the high prices of trikes anymore. I got into recumbents in the late 70's and fell in love with laid back cycling, after being a ten speed racing bike kid going back to 1967 or so. The only thing that scares me about the trike is having a flat too far from home, especially on the rear wheel, never happened and I use the flat proof Schwalbe tires for years now and never had one get punctured. Your shop is great, went there once, but wasn't able to afford anything until my Dad passed away and left me some money. I had this small young guy pass me on my Burley two wheel recumbent going down a hill and I thought I'd teach him a lesson and pass his ass.....I could NOT catch up with him at ll. That lit a fire under me to look into recumbent trikes, and here I am riding through all summer as I can. Unfortunately Summer just DIED here and the rains are back, no more riding in 2023 .....
"pulling....toenails"!? I think your exaggerating. No worse than a root canal. Come visit sometime -we'll try to score some Novocain
I think that modded trike is probably sufficient for paved and hard packed straight line recreational/rail trails. It does seem like some torque is getting transferred to side to side wobble in the power stroke. Turns and corners just couldn't be as stable as the original specs. I agree with your decision to not motorize it as depicted. I'm a Catrike Expedition stock config rider.
Thomas. I appreciate your comments. I'd note, though, that pretty-much anything is stable in a "straight line". There are "acceptable" mods and then...... We've seen this particular online operation ("chop shop", as we commonly call it) sells this rig with 1000 watt motors. NOTHING should have a 1000 watt motor. They have zero idea what they're doing.
Thanks for the advice I was looking at that online store.
My pleasure. It's my experience that the bricks-and-motor recumbent shops - even the ones I compete directly with - provide good, honest value. The horror stories I hear -and see- from folks who bounce over a few states to purchase -well, they motivate me to warn people about Utah.
I am interested in getting a Rohloff hub on my Catrike and had seen the internet kit with the extension and I liked the easy kit, but the extension was a turn off, although I didn’t know about the flexing which adds to my not wanting that kit.
Safe to say I will come down to ask about getting a Rohloff later in the year
The out-of-spec extensions will void the frame warranty and - more critically - make the frame more prone to catastrophic failure. Nowhere in Utah's scant warranty page (www.utahtrikes.com/UT2-Store_Policies.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwxOymBhAFEiwAnodBLGafaZZLbk6ieWsrRxAyItrLx7Ohcch7mGwGAUsrAbBwdpn89UX-mhoCDlgQAvD_BwE) do they address the warranty void or any steps they'd take to step into the breach. If your vendor can't be bothered to warranty their product, that's generally a clear "walk-away" signal
What's your take on quad vs trike on things like trails, or the beach or pulling a trailer. The nameless outfit aside, companies like TrikExplor, Trisled and Pony4 seem to make reliable quads that would seem to make a favorable argument against a trike. That said, I'm also looking at the ICE Full Fat XL and interested in your opinion.
I don't like quads and I don't like Fat's. That's personal opinion. It informs my professional opinion: I don't sell either. But, my opinions are meaningless -if you can safely enjoy a particular cycle, that's what you should be on!
Yes, with bigger wheels and higher groundclerance the trike is less stable. As known Enviolo has several different models, for example a model recommended for cargobikes with a 600 W motor with 120 Nm.
enviola’s max spec is 100Nm -on a lead-heavy cargo hub I’ve yet to see on a trike. I’ve seen plenty of igh’s un-sprung by 1000 watt motors. I’ve seen - and have the photos to prove it - half a dozen HP Velotechniks cracked in half by oversized motors
I think you dismiss the Nuvinci Hub rather quickly? I think they are awesome compared to a derailleur. I can understand playing it conservative with the 500 Watt Bafaag but I think this would work. Mine has been on a 750 for 3 years with no issues. Having just gotten back into biking I find the infinite gearing and the smooth shifting is game changing. Just makes my riding a much more pleasurable experience.
Yes, quickly. We've seen dozens of broken Nuvinci hubs discarded like so many old oil drums -because their own published specs make clear torque limits that are easily overwhelmed by a motor kit.
@@RecumbentPDX. Hard to argue your point given Nuvinci specs but I wonder if the specs on some of these motors are actually that powerful in real life? I also am a very conservative rider doing just in town riding. It just keeps on ticking? I do love the shifting on these, small increments so easy to adjust to your cadence. In looking at your riding videos I think your terrain out west is just much more challenging than in Ohio! Lol
IMHO...the culprit should be named.
Oh, okay. It's Utah Trikes.
@@RecumbentPDX Ha...that was my guess. Thanks for posting.
@@brucefarrar300 there are many communities with no shop within reasonable distance. when Utah sells into an underserved community, they’re providing a valuable service. In contrast, when they sell into the California and Washington markets, they’re cheating local dealers (I know they tell potential customers to test ride at local shops because they’ve done it to me. They’ve also told folks they can get any warranty fixes from us. They can’t.). Utah’s modifications endanger riders. And, they give the whole industry a black eye
Somebody please get safety Suzy a tissue and a hi viz vest so everybody can watch them cry.
since we don’t sell our customers dangerous builds, we need neither tissue nor emergency medical care. this great country provides the freedom to make as many stupid decisions as you care to. have a great time out on the road!
i have a nice looking catrike rear hub, 7-8 gears. i put it on a regular 26 inch wheel for a regular mtb. then i realized, truing this will be a hell, because the freewheel only goes one direction. and this will also create problems during rides. sometimes the bike needs to go backwards, and this mechanism does not allow. any suggestion?
Hi. I'm not understanding your specific situation, so can't give an opinion. Though, it sounds like the hub is "fixie" style., so I agree with you that it doesn't seem workable on a trike.
@@RecumbentPDX no,no i tried to make a classic 26 inch 32 spoke wheel, but it did not work. i like it because it has sealed bearings. however, when installed on the truing stand, it only turns one way. i.e. if you are on a bike, you can not turn the pedals backwards. and this is ok on a trike, but not acceptable for a bike. also, the boss, the organizer of the bike house, asked me to keep it for him, and install it back on a 20 inch wheel for a trike, one day.
The persons you refer to like to ride on two wheels without helmets over ice and snow. They are young. I am old. I wonder if they will get to be old.
We used to joke that we were available to perform brain surgery in the shop for anybody unwilling to wear a helmet.
What if 24in wheel on 26in?
Catrike knows what they're doing. Utah does not. No retailer should perform modifications that wildly diverge from the manufacturer's specs.
Do you sell and ship trikes as well, or only in person?
We like happy customers. That's why we only sell in the shop. We have more demo Catrikes than any trike shop in the country. That's the secret to a happy customer: test riding. Purchasing trikes on the internet is a recipe for disaster. We regularly have customers fly in from Alaska or Hawaii to get fitted. It's expensive and time-consuming for them. But, in the end, they get EXACTLY the right trike.
@@RecumbentPDX I get it! It's hard when you live in the other side of the country :)
You sound like an upset salesperson who losing a lot of sales to the internet sales company. I bought mine from the internet sales company because they have made it so a person that has a heritable handicap able to get in and out of the trike by raising it up a little so that the rider can get in and out because they are no longer seating so low in a trike that they can get in and out of it. I’ve had mine since 2015 and it doesn’t have anywhere near the sway that the one you showed.
Mark - Oregon has no sales tax, so Utah has almost no affect on our sales. In contrast, the dealers in California and Washington - both high sales tax - get creamed by the no-sales-tax internet retailers like Utah. Now, having effectively demolished your "ulterior motive" theory, we're going to return to the discussion of what's "safe" and "proven" on a trike: Utah's modifications are not. That's why their store policies - which you can google - admit that this kind of dangerous stupidity voids Catrike's warranty. There are PLENTY of manufacturers whose engineers have designed higher seat heights to accommodate your needs. You purchased from a silly internet operation with no employess qualified to determine the safety of their modifications.
I wish you safe and enjoyable riding!
100% agree
thanks
You're entitled to your opinion, but the whole avoiding speaking freely to express one's self, in replace of the politically correct verbiage.
I don't agree with.
Politically Correctness, does more harm than good. It is thought and speech control. It is derived from Communism.
I think we all can tell you're referring to Utah Trikes, as the company who you disagree with. IMHO.
See...that wasn't so hard.
I personally choose to live in a world where reality is expressed, and not a unrealistic world where people can't say...I hate asparagus.
I absolutely hate Political Correctness!
By me saying that, I don't think anyone melted away.
I do however disagree with bolt up frame extensions so that aftermarket upgrades can be fitted to oem recumbent trikes.
I bought my Catrike Expedition from Utah Trikes in 2017.
I have added many upgrades, but none which modify the frame or anything else which can cause unsafe riding. So I agree with you on these points.
I've even commented on Utah Trikes videos, saying such.
My personal view in life...
Be real, be honest; even at times bluntly honest if need be.
I stopped trying to please everyone a LONG TIME AGO.
I am more of a call it like I see it person. Speak absolute truth and if people don't like me or my honesty, at least I didn't speak with politically correct unrealistic speech.
I dont try to avoid not speaking with softer friendly speech...To me it's more disgustingly phoney, and insulting to people's intelligence.
Everyone in our household loves asparagus. Thank you for sharing your unvarnished opinion.
I agree with all of it. Modding is fine (I'm currently modding my titan) but you must have an understanding of what the original was designed to handle, what your mods will do to the geometry and forces. I'm extending, but the bracket braces the chainstays by design, and keeps the frame in the same orientation. And I'm keeping the ability to go back to stock. I'm on the fence about bigger front wheels. I'd like a little more ground clearance around town but I need to see how the bigger back wheel affects everything first. The extra length will steady it up at higer speeds, but I can lose that with a higher front end. At the end of the day I'm happy. I bought a lower end trike to play with. I'll get a 700 or vtx later.
If the manufacturer tells you it's "okay", then it's "okay". Failing that, ANY mod is courting disaster. The same Internet Chop Shop "featured" in my video installed a 1000 watt motor on a AZUB Ti-FlyX for a bay-area triker. The ridiculous (and NOT legal) torque sheared the bolts right off the AZUB's suspension. This happened just a couple days ago (Apr '23). Customer now has to ship the resulting pile all the way back to Utah so said Chop Shop can try to repair it. So, two lessons: 1) don't buy from internet chop shops and 2) if you do - and it breaks - be prepared for a long and expensive interval until you can ride your trike again.
Gotta agree with the 1000w comments. As for my brackets, they are designed by myself with input from a local mechanic/builder out of 1/4" 4130 with a brazed on connection on top of the chainstays to give a 3rd point of attachment and bracing. If I do put a motor on it, it will probably be the 350w kit that they sell for it. This is my weightloss trike, which will turn into my around town trike when I get down to a good weight for a catrike 700.
I think this is the real tension: with the very long tradition of riders fiddling with bikes, what are the reasonable boundaries? If a trike comes with low- or moderate-end components, it's silly to tell people not to replace rear cassettes or derailleurs. Typical ride conditions matter -- for those of us who generally ride under 10 mph on mostly-flat ground, an extender for the rear wheel may make the back end a bit wobbly, but it's not as for dangerous as someone who's regularly careening down a mountain. (I don't have any mods.) And frame warranties are a helpful boundary: if the manufacturer says doing X will void the frame warranty, that should be a pretty strong red flag, because FRAMES.
@@sdorn No dealer has an issue with upgrading components -whether done by knowledgeable customer or a shop. We do tons of Rohloffs. And, Shimano Alfines. And DI2. None of these puts a trike or a rider at risk. But, most riders can predict EVERY situation they might find themselves in, so absent some benefit (and there's ZERO benefit to putting a 24 or 26 inch wheel on a frame designed for a 20), there's simply no good reason to do it. THanks for responding.
Yeah. Very stupid design added to an already solid all American made trike. Sad that many people think this would be cool. Or better. Just unsafe period.
100%!