The R129 Mercedes SL is Bargain Perfection - Carmudgeon Show Jason Cammisa & Derek of ISSIMI Ep 84
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- In this podcast, Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott ("Hyphen") cover everything you didn't realize you wanted to know about the R129-chassis Mercedes-Benz SL.
The R129 comes in many forms: 300SL, 300SL-24, 500SL, 600SL, and then the renamed SL320, SL500, and SL600. It had three different body styles and two interiors thanks to two facelifts, three different transmissions in the U.S. - a 4-speed automatic, a 5-speed automatic, and a 5-speed dogleg manual transmission.
And the 500SL/SL500 had 3 different engines: a CIS-E "K-Jetronic" tall-deck M119, a LH-Jetronic short-deck M119, both with 4 cams, 4 valves per cylinder, and VVT; and then a 2-cam, 3-valve, non-VVT M113.
So which is the one to get? Which variants drive the best? Which R129s suffer from the dreaded wiring-harness failure?
How much did Jason's 300SL 5-speed weigh?
These are important questions. But the Carmudgeons also talk about the R129's fascinating development history including - why the car that Bruno Sacco himself described as "perfect" was 10 years late. They discuss the R129's world-firsts, like the first-ever fully automatic roof mechanism (and its failure-prone 11 hydraulic cylinders), the first-ever popup rollover protection, the world's first seat-mounted seatbelts (with magnesium-frame seats); and the first time the world ever saw a convertible wind deflector.
The R129 was a technological tour de force, combined with a timelessly elegant and stunningly beautiful design and absolutely impeccable build quality, making it the high point of every generation of Mercedes SL - excepting of course the original W198 300SL Gullwing, which wasn't an SL at all.
Huh? Yeah, you're going to have to watch the episode to figure that one out.
The Carmudgeon Show is part of the Hagerty Podcast Network.
Honestly we should see more episodes like this on specific cars
Honestly if you could do a whole video on the w201 I would be a very happy camper
Yeah totally agree! Their USP is the ability to go into extreme depth on such a wide variety of cars. Way past every other auto commentator/creator I've ever come across. This show is peak automotive discussion imo
Cammisa, "He will drive them until the end of his life". DTS, "As many SL drivers do." LMAO
Great episode. All the numbers and letters brought me back to organic chemistry class. I even took notes!
Restoring an 95 600SL now, it's a beast of a project digging out all the "biodegradable" wiring. Hydraulic suspension is also a huge complexity. Bought it for $3500 and easily have that in parts, doing all the work myself. Amazing engine, just got the throttle bodies working. Wish me luck.
Good luck. I hope you get it all working. Any of these cars deserve to be restored and then driven. They’re too interesting to let sit and rot. I respect that you’re bringing a neglected one back on the road. The car deserves it.
I believe they corrected the “ biodegradable “ wiring in
1996 - 1997 🎉
good luck and get that beaut on the road again!
Update?
@@Raziel3794 It works, been running her for 8 months with no problems. Still have to do the hydraulics on the roof and some minor body and paint but other than that she is 100%. A bit of a slip in 3rd so the transmission will need to be rebuilt but I am ignoring it for now. Runs great, happy its on the road, registered, and going. Only take it out on the weekends now, but for about a month I used it as a daily. Very easy and comfortable car to live with.
Who knew that car-nerdiness can be so entertaining and essential? Really, who knew? Well done chaps!
Not even a minute in and Derek calls the R129 vintage. Now I feel old.
My absolute favorite Car Podcast 👍
Mine as well, but everyday driver is also fun.
Picked up my '00 sl500 a few months back. I've owned a wide range of enthusiast cars with all sorts of engines. Absolutely nothing has compared to the r129. The build quality and engineering is truly unbelievable with a timeless design. Someone even mistook it for a brand new car. I drive it every chance I can.
Mega Craigslist frenzy listening to this.
That clip of the equal length runner headers on the V12 was MIND BLOWNING
Here we have kijiji fever
Once again - Jason's bad take on the R230 with Derek back to reality. Great episode!
You're probably the expert on this but is the quality really bad? Pre-facelift R230 SL 55s especially are gorgeous I think
Yeah, that was out there. Pre-MOPF R230 all day every day, esp. SL55
@@carsaregood911 I just think that Jason is not being honest. He loves his W202 C43 AMG but calls the interior on the R230 'Dodge neon'. That does not make sense. R230 SL55 quality is fine. Edit: Okay, he says he doesn't like the C43's interior but likes the C36's interior - I'm not sure about that one....
Love your content @AMGmeister. I had a Blue 1978 gray market 230 with Ronel R9 wheels, front lip and side skirts given to me from my aunt back in 1995. Wish I still had it.
@@AMGmeister Harris gushed over his SL63 R230 recently in his "Collecting Addicts" podcast and would happily have another one, having owned it close to new.
IIRC SLR performance in a more compact package. With that in mind, imma take Chris's word over Jason's on that one 😁
The 722.6 5pd transmissions were actually reliable even after 100k miles. The failure rate you are describing is the conductor plate and the electrical connector. Both items can be replaced as maintenance items and parts cost less than $300 for both.
Exactly what I was going to say. The other 5 speed automatic at the time, was not durable at all. The zf 5hp.
I had this transmission in a 2011 car 😂
Best automatic ever.
Agreed. These transmissions came in the the E300 diesel and E320 CDI, the latter of which makes a mountain of torque. They routinely go 300k+ miles on the original 722.6 internals - sure the might go through 3-4 conductor plates but those are cheap these days and no harder to replace than a transmission filter.
Oh boy, saw this on my feed and immediately got distracted😂 One of the best convertibles ever made imo.
My favorite version of R129 is SL73 AMG. That's one of my dream cars.
How many are left? Feels like about 6, with the rest being snapped up by Horatio..
HOW does this channel only have thirteen thousand subscribers??
I would love to see an episode like this for the e30. Or a time stamp to a past episode where this already happened
They did an episode on the miatas and an E30. I don't have a time stamp, because the comparisons to bmw's are sprinkled all through.
@@markusklemm4516 I don't think they went into such specifics for the E30 as they did in this episode for the R129. As you said, it was mainly comparisons to the Miata in the way it drives and hardly any talk of different engines or model year changes, AFAIR.
For centuries, millennia even, we’ve been told to buy the latest model in the range and spend as much as you can. So I just bought a ‘99 SL500 on BaT and one competitive bidder brought up M119 in the comments. I had no idea what he was on about. Now I listen to this and of course I want an M119. Damn you @JasonCamissa!
The 5 speed makes 93 to 95 less desirable imho. 96 to 98 are the years to get.
I will never not love the pre-Mopf R230. Such an elegant, early noughts shape.
My Ex‘s bff‘s husband had a black over red SL55. In 2004. You need to realize what that means. This is before cheap money and leasing. If you had a 55 anything in 2004, let alone a SL, you were balling out of control. Such an everlasting experience to a young, ambitious guy.
I found a 1994 with 84K miles for $8000. Probably going to buy it depending on pre-purchase inspection results. It's 2100 miles from me but the plan is to fly there and drive it back. Might be an adventure.
I like the idea of the Bruno Sacco interior (the last year) but electronic fuel injection (the first year).
By the way, I am an OLD GUY (75 in March) who will probably drive this to the end of my life! ;-)
So there!
Had the M104 straight six Jason is talking about. Incredible engine. In a W210. 5 speed automatic. To say it wasn‘t exactly the smartest engine/gearbox/chassis combo would be an understatement…
But oh boy, when it comes on cam at 4,5k-ish…
What didn't you like about it? Am looking for a wagon of that era and appreciate all insights.
@@pauliej4208 Trans is too lazy and likes to be in high gear early which doesn‘t suit the engine‘s high-rev character. You either need the auto with a high torque V8 or the I6 with a manual.
Damn I love these podcasts they change my day
One of the best episodes so far! I had to listen it twice!
Just for fact, the Mercedes V12 was also use in the french automaker Aixam Mega Track (only 5-6 ever produce).
very cool
It was that off-road supercar wasn't it?
Just purchased a 2000 SL500. I am truly blessed and honored to own a piece of honorable 90’s History
I have been looking at the R129. Agree pre facelift cars are better and definitely the M119. Have a 92 400E and really enjoy as a daily. It’s getting a 2.62 diff with a wavetrak, exhaust, 16” wheels and 500E stabilizer bars. Next best thing but not afraid to drive it.
I want to question you on saying that it was the first fully automatic roof. I had a 1967 Lincoln Continental Convertible and it had a fully automatic roof. It didn't have any latches you just push the button inside or use a key outside next to the fuel door that would put the top up or down. That outside key was really to allow you to get into the trunk or at least what you get for a trunk. Has to be the smallest trunk in a car that's 22 feet long! BTW 17 pumps for that top 😬
Those Continental convertibles are superb cars. There is a guy who makes houses call to fully service the top mechanism.
@sprezzatura8755 luckily for me the person that had my before me had got the top in perfectly working order. I'm pretty good with working on most car systems but I wouldn't want to have to figure out that top!
Had to keep Google open throughout to look up model designations as they were tommy gunned for an hour straight. Loved it!
Sweet! I guess I shouldn't have hid my SL on the street when You and M539 Restorations held the meet a few months ago.
The early cars had issues with the folding top. The system (control unit and sequencing valves) was simplified on later models. A heavy car but pretty amazing for the 90's.
I’ve got a W211 E320 with the 722.6 and 230k miles. Unfortunately, the previous owner never serviced the transmission. I try to only drive it on the highway as the shifting is very dim-witted. But every 722.6 that I’ve experienced was very durable.
Great Mercedes episode and loved the wide breath of cars covered this episode.
Shark nose ended with e21/23/28/24 and then came e30, followed by e32 and then e34. Next design e36 - e38 - e39. e46 was "deep facelift e36", then came "full bangle" and it started with e65 and then e61 and e90. Only with F series design started to trickle down form 7-er to 5-er and 3-er.
I would argue that the shark nose started with E3/E9, but for sure with the E12.
TIL that I know almost nothing about the R129 even after 3 years of ownership and endless YT videos + BaT listings. Btw, I'm in my early 50s (not 90s!) and don't plan on dying soon! 😬
I think the R129 is the car enthusiast's guilty pleasure and has cross-over appeal to the GenX crowd. Sure, I could own another exotic/sports/fill in the blank... but sometimes you just want to get from A to B in style with a freight-train of an engine as part of the deal.
PS thanks for making me consider doing headers and pipes on my SL600.
Suggestion for an episode; Best sportscar from each decade, only one from each…
Maybe by decade? By century only gives you three cars, and the 1800s one is going to be slower than a modern moped.
@@redlion145 Ups, I mean decade 😛
Depending on the definition that could result in fewer cars than you probably intend. (some would claim 911 for several decades) I would vote to add "from each country that made one" (spain, sweden or france have not made many sportscars. From these 3 i only would claim the original Alpine as a sportscar but was it the best of it's aera? It for sure won many rallyes.)
I love this topic and the obvious knowledge and passion these guys have! The ‘98 SL is in the top 10 cars ever made. ‘98 was, in my opinion, the last real Mercedes. Except for the low production models, Mercedes has gone downhill ever since ‘98.
I have a ‘98 SL500 with 48k original miles and an identical model as a parts car. I’m hoping that it stays in the family for generations as an example of near perfect engineering, not yet way overdone and unnecessary like today’s cars. A car that didn’t cut corners in its development and in its materials and build quality. Maybe it is the perfect car.
Cammisa with the Drawn Together reference! That's a deep cut, fella.
Derek Clapton Fan Boy! 👏
6:19 Great freaking color!
I bought my 2001 SL500 3 years ago at 79,000 miles for $10k. I replaced the hydraulic cylinders from top hydraulics and the AC blower motor. Other than that the car has been great and is going strong at 107,000 miles with oil changes every 5,000 miles. It was not my first choice as I wanted the pre-facelift with the two tone black/gray with the Sacco interior. But the black with AMG kit looks very nice on my car imo. I replaced all interior backlighting in the cluster and on the dash with amber LEDs also. The car is bone stock otherwise with both original transponder keys and the valet key, wind deflector in perfect shape, and original owners manual with all of the warranty and quick tips booklets. I am tempted to sell for an earlier version if I can find a nice one in the color combo I want.
Had a 1993 SL600 and the wiring harness was a pretty bad job on the that car, I believe due to clearance or extra heat of the V12. Both lower and upper harness had to be replaced and can cause quite a lot of money. Apparently this issue affected only 93-96 models. Also don't recall exactly how but the e-gas module (control unit of the dual electric throttle bodies) can go and that unit is very hard to find/replace.
Great respect for this Roadster, well built and very nice looking (they are tons still around) but not sporty & nimble at all.. just a highway & boulevard cruiser, the End!
I bought a 500SL a couple months ago, I just love it such a great car especially for the price
My very early Tuesday morning car fix.. time zones
I'm glad to see everyone still dislikes the early 00's era of Mercedes styling, keeps the market down so I can get one eventually. Hot take: The C215 CL is up there with the R129 in terms of styling, maybe not as timeless but definitely more emotional and voluptuous.
I suspect the prices for r129’s haven’t gone up as much is because there’s so many specs. You have to be an expert to know which is best and the general market hasn’t agreed which they prefer. Compare to 500E there is a clearly optimum model hence more competition for those
I’m convinced the R129 would be worth about three times as much if it came with three pedals and a stick.
You could get them with a stick, only the less desirable 6 cylinder ones though
@@carsaregood911 was that offered in the US or only in Europe? I apologize as I’m only familiar with the US market
@@hellatightdude In the US, DeMuro made a video on one not too long ago ua-cam.com/video/1SvRHADmkco/v-deo.html
Listening to it just realized they spoke about how rare the manual ones are
@@hellatightdude U.S.! Watch the episode and you'll find out more. :)
I have one of the 1990 300SL-24's with 5 speed manual, great fun car. 1st gear is a bit of a dog but very rev happy
So on a technical issue what's Paulo done with the picture. The focus is different as the control pad up front is slightly out of focus and it has a darker look.
That Mercedes V12 start-up is the best in my opinion especially on an AMG
Great episode; loved the two tone R129 paint jobs too. So period! The M120 replacement harness is apparently no longer available. Car Wizard's customer recently found out the hard way. . .
It’s available in Europe.
The two tone paint is great!!
Loved it! I would’ve loved to hear more about the AMG variants that never came to America like the SL 60 and SL 70 and SL 74.
Extremely rare and expensive as you probably know. Hence why they didn’t talk about it.
LOVED this ❤ Learned so much. Gearbox geek facts very interesting. Smug: that I own a ‘94 119 with mono bloks. Bargain perfection indeed ❤
300E-24 dogleg owner here.✌(Bought it because of one of the old episodes from a couple of years ago!) I probably was one of the very few interested in the part from 33:30 onwards as I had some ignition problems before as well. Could you possibly specify which insulator cap you were talking about which is so crucial?
Guys one detail you were incorrect on @23:21 is the 260E did not have the same engine as the 300E. it has a smaller bore than the 3.0 variant and is genuinely a 2.6 M103. But it is strange to think that they went to all that lenght to create a different block and head casting for a mere 20hp difference😂
I bought a 2001 SL500 in silver with the AMG package. Looked great but this is not the bulletproof area of Mercedes that my W201 190E was. It was plagued with electric issues that fall into cracks between neighborhood mechanic and dealership. Also the fact you can’t get replacement keys for 3 years despite Mercedes claim to support their older models is nuts. I switched to 911s.
I LOVE Opus Number 1!
Can we nail the focus next week please Paolo!!
No mention of the AMG versions? The 73 in particular that shared the engine with the Zonda
The first offroad supercar used the M120: the Aixam Mega Track. French, mid-engined 4 seater.
40:00 It's like a cat nudging a cup to the edge of the table then gently pushing it back to the center without getting caught.
Also audio/video gets progressively off sync towards the end. Shocked no one mentioned the black edition; they're cool right?
Mercedes V12 was also used by the company Mega for their Mega Track
There is a used car lot near me which for some reason brought a r129 identical to the one on the thumbnail.
Wish you guys would do an episode like this for the w124! I suppose there would be a lot of overlap but still!
YES!!! Finally!! Thank you!
Good show, but perpetrating the cost cutting myths after merger. The SL was not really affected, other than modular engines. A/C unit same as in the W140, praised for its build quality, Nappa leather not cheap, and post 2nd facelift models got the V12 Brembo brakes (ventilated f & r) as standard, with 17 inch wheels.
You should try a late European V6. My SL280 has 204hp only but much lighter engine corners flat with little understeer and is perfect for french country roads.
I’ve really really really been debating on one of these for years. Always wanted an early 500.
But.. I’d have to sell my C5 to get one. So, maybe years down the road if they haven’t suddenly jumped in value by then.
the final part of the show seem has bit of mismatch between video and audio....
start 1:04:31 till the end
As a kid I thought they were boring and ugly. Today it's probably the best Mercedes I can think of. Would be a dream to drive an SL70 or 73 AMG...
Actually the "biodegradable" wiring for environmental concerns is a internet myth. Not all of the wiring on the 91-95 cars has the bio, the majority is just regular wires. It's specifically on the throttle bodies, MAF wiring harness, and the "top" engine harness as well as the "bottom" alternator harness. Even then, some of the wires are not bio. They just made a mistake and used the wrong wire. The main harness (body mounted) has the MAF wiring in it and all the other wires are good, even when the bio insulation is literally turned to dust.
the reason they are putting the AMG 4matic on the R232 SL is cause they can sell them to the people in the north and they can be driven year round
I am doing a rotisserie restoration on my 98 . I want to twin turbo it but I have looked the world over for someone to tune it but I get the deer in the headlights look. Any ideas?
let's pump the market babyyyyy
Is that white helmet a reference to the Stig?
Nope, it's just my old helmet, which I placed there to distract from the wires hanging down from the TV :)
Do the early years have the problem with the biodegradable wiring? I keep thinking about a R129 but despite being able doing almost all my own work parts prices kinda scare me especially the top mechanism.
PS I guess I should have listened till the end before asking my question 🤦♂️
Never owned a Mercedes. If you could have one that would give you the classic experience it seems like this would be it
I love that you throw out a great Eddie Izzard line and get nothing in return!
Good catch!
A video version of the R129 Wiki page... Me brain hurts!
Hard to keep up with the number soup and what they apply to.
great episode, any chance you guys could share the name of the books on the r129?
The Brian Long 129 book is the one I have although it’s hard to find (may be on kindle) plus the Bernd Koehling book is likely good although I do not own it. I’ve bought other of his books and was impressed by the content but the presentation is hilariously bad.
Jason - hates on many many cars for being too heavy. Espouses older tin cans for their light weight and manual transmissions. Dedicates an entire episode to a 3900lb, automatic only for the v8/v12 car telling everyone how they need one.
You'll note I sold mine...
What about the R107 420SL?
So you would drive an E50 M119 over an E55 M113?
Both w210 NA the E50 347hp with shorter gear 3.07 but e E55 354hp with longer 2.82 is still faster
Having owned a r129 R230 R231 and R232 and I still only have the R 129 . Each iteration afterwards are less well made then the previous one .
We need one for the w140
Yet Jason sold his manual 300SL …
Classic, just like the car!
What car is that at 30:00?
No love for the SL320 a little disappointed in the no coverage.
@37:18 for buyers advice.
No Derek, all old Mercdes Benz are overvalued and absolutely nobody should buy one ever remember?
A Revelations episode uploading...
Isn't the Lexus SC430 more of a bargain though 🤔
For good reason
You should try to drive (or even sit in) a Mercedes from before the cost cutting era, before 1995 or so. There is really no comparison.
Talk about a niche topic
Juan Hyphen Jason
1989 bubble has to be cocaine cowboy related
Sweeet!!!!
PAOLO! Keep the camera still!
The coupes look beautiful. But the convertibles...not so much.
Back when Mercedes was the hottest shit there is. They fell off so hard
Put me on the podcast let’s talk Mercedes FrFr ❤️ my favorite brand
How fast would a V12 go? 170 theoretically says automobile catalog
Dont mix bmw engine codes you want me to puke?
Does dts wear a cocaine white suit when driving his and play synthwave?