Hey John, nice to see how you are shooting at a given problem from various angles... priceless to hear you think... and I mean that in the most positive of ways! Thanks for sharing... good to see you are back on your feet (rollover incident)... stay save!
Hi John, to use the 2D Chamfer tool path on an edge that has a modeled chamfer; Select the lower edge of the modeled chamfer, then in the heights tab set the bottom offset positive and equal to the depth of the chamfer. Then set the rest of your tool path as you normally would. Fusion gets confused when its modeled. I have pointed this out to them before and there answer was, well just don't model the chamfer. Maybe you have more pull to get it fixed.
Hey! To create a toolpath for an already chamfered edge, just use 2D contour, select the bottom edge of the chamfer, and under passes, enable "Chamfer." Edit: hadn't gotten to that part of the video but looks like he does show this at 10:35
Hey m98custom1212, As far as I'm aware, this does not appear to have ever worked before. Not generating a toolpath for modeled chamfers won't work because 2D Chamfer is a surface strategy and the kernel will generate only toolpath that will be in contact with the material. That said, both 2D Contour and Trace offer chamfering options under the passes tab.
Xander, Thank you for your reply. However the reason the 2D chamfer tool path was created is to avoid obstructions that maybe in the geometry. Say you have a boss or something near the edge being chamfered, the 2D contour is not smart enough to avoid it. I personally don't recall this ever working in Fusion in the last year and a half at least. But on the plus side at least the chamfer lead out bug is fixed!
While working on laying up a run (which I've done a bit of), I could only select one body in CAM. I did recall seeing this video when it came out and knew the answer would be in it. It was a duh-moment (I'm sure you've already guessed I had not selected all bodies in my Setup) but the answer was indeed right in the beginning of the video. Many thanks (both for serving as a great reference and for the entertainment value; great job! )
Couple options for locations are the shoulder bolts but get them long enough to where the shoulder locates in a bored hole on the fixture as well, or mill a boss on the fixture and use a smaller screw size. That way you're not locating on threads at all. Could do in two ops with the back chamfer as well, holes and pockets with chamfers on both details, back chamfer thru the holes. Flip, profile with chamfer, pockets with chamfer then back chamfer the profile. Probably chatter though on the pockets in the first op. I usually just chamfer holes like this in the Bridgeport though.
Harvey tool makes a double chamfer tool that awesome. I use one all the time. I usually machine my fixtures where the part sits on an island so I can chamfer both sides in same setup.
Don't know if anyone else has brought it up, but you can use a single point thread mill as a chamfer and back-chamfer tool. It sounds great, but honestly it can be a pain if your material isn't always consistent. If the bottom of your material is on a located surface though that can work well. We just modified 80 pulleys to accept a bearing rather than the bushing they came with (wasn't durable enough for our use) and I used one to do all the chamfering.
Hi John. Thanks for the video. I had a similar project a few months ago for a client and used almost exactly the same steps, albeit in Bobcad. One thing I did to overcome the difference in bolt hole size vs Bolt diameter ( I didn't have shoulder bolts handy - 6.5mm hole and 6mm bolt) was to make up some small taper cones that have a 6mm hole that fit on the bolt. nothing fancy - made the tapers for the cones on the lathe with a file after drilling hole, part off, next. The cones then centralise the blank every time, and worked a treat. Just some food for thought if the bolt hole doesn't suit a shoulder bolt or you need a quick fix....
If you are doing the drilling and hole chamfering op in a vice, don't you have to worry about possible stick bow, so the chamfers in the center parts may be high or low? I guess maybe you could treat the plate as a 3D surface and probe the plate center height before drilling to compensate for any bow, if Fusion is mart enough to adjust for different bows on different parts.
I haven't spent a lot of time in a machine shop, but my idea first would be to use extrusion closer to the size of one component like John said. for the first op I'd fixture using two indexing pins along the outside x axis of the part, and one on the y. i'd do two extrusions with two mitee bites in the center, with a similar indexing method for the other side.
I like back facing and back chamfering as it guarantees alignments. The main drawback which probably wouldn't be an issue here is tool deflection when you start getting into deeper operations. Going to make 10,000 of them, how about forging dies? :-) Thanks for the well paced video!
This was great, thank you. I'd love to see you follow through to machining the fixture and a set of parts, just for completeness. If you have time. Thanks!
Do we get to see chips? You seem to be picking up well on the notion of maintaining stiffness as long as possible. 😋 Did you consider countersunk socket head screws to hold the parts? They don't have to be flush but can be lower than button head. Another option for clamping that's used sometimes in automation is "collets" through the holes instead of screws that match the bore in the part and fixture. The collets can be expanded by internal draw bars that are pneumatically actuated. Unexpanded, the collet fits through the hole in the part. Such devices can save a lot of screwing around with fixtures, but take quite a bit more time to set up. PS: if you left a floor of stock between parts after the second op., then there's only one part to flip. Downside is that you might get a small lip on the edge unless you leave a full-height finishing pass until very last.
How deep are these holes? With a 5.8mm endmill you will have more rigidity and be able to remove material quicker, however with a 4mm endmill you will have better chip evacuation. With only .2mm of clearance, you don't leave much room to evacuate chips in deep holes.
I am drilling Aluminium profiles, so Its four times 2mm material thickness stacked on top of each other. Chips can evacuate by beeing pushed aside. Its a depth of 20mm in total.
I watched this video a while back and thought cool a video on production and as far as patterning it helped but the elephant in the room it never touches on is sub programs. (canned cycle macros) These are essential for more complex production manufacturing of parts where cutting more than one part at a time using the same WCS zero would be too large for just about any control on the market. Where is that video and if you haven't made it can you?
i literally was going to shoot you an email with a request for a Fusion Friday on production run fixtures this weekend. Any chance you could do a video on making pallets (if thats the correct term) that have a repeatable zero?
Because the indent in the part is so shallow is adaptive still a good strategy from a speed and tool wear perspective? It seems we can only use nearly the tip of the end mill so increase the width of the cut might be viable here?
It would be way faster to slot it (and possible with a shallow depth of cut like that) but the tool still wears a bunch more when slotting compared to side milling.
2d contour is all use for modeled chamfers. Hey I can't believe I had an idea that you didn't: why not skip the first op in the vise, clamp the stk. to the fixture with the tapped holes already in it; drill, M00, bolt, carry on. if you use countersunk screws I bet you could keep the parts centered after flipping. :)
We do this for plexiglass windows that are cut from sheared material. Oh and some 12"x12"x2" 6061 housings that get about 70% of the material removed. Second side is located to fixture by counterbores in part and on fixture with collars, completely captured locating feature. @Steinwerks here btw. ;-)
atomkinder67 hey steinworks! Yeah, I love ditching a setup. The first time I did this I realized 'duh' the machine knows where the fixture is even if I cover it up. :)
Yes, and even though we have a Chick subplate I wrote a short probing program to locate it every time. It can vary up to about .0045" so this locates the WCS and height of the fixture (four offsets per run of two parts on the fixture) and offsets everything automatically. Wish I could share photos of that part.
Hey John, nice to see how you are shooting at a given problem from various angles... priceless to hear you think... and I mean that in the most positive of ways! Thanks for sharing... good to see you are back on your feet (rollover incident)... stay save!
Hi John, to use the 2D Chamfer tool path on an edge that has a modeled chamfer; Select the lower edge of the modeled chamfer, then in the heights tab set the bottom offset positive and equal to the depth of the chamfer. Then set the rest of your tool path as you normally would. Fusion gets confused when its modeled. I have pointed this out to them before and there answer was, well just don't model the chamfer. Maybe you have more pull to get it fixed.
Hey! To create a toolpath for an already chamfered edge, just use 2D contour, select the bottom edge of the chamfer, and under passes, enable "Chamfer."
Edit: hadn't gotten to that part of the video but looks like he does show this at 10:35
what's sucks is this worked before
Hey m98custom1212, As far as I'm aware, this does not appear to have ever worked before. Not generating a toolpath for modeled chamfers won't work because 2D Chamfer is a surface strategy and the kernel will generate only toolpath that will be in contact with the material.
That said, both 2D Contour and Trace offer chamfering options under the passes tab.
And the way you have that operation setup should still work inside Fusion 360: i.imgur.com/C5P5WvU.png
Xander, Thank you for your reply. However the reason the 2D chamfer tool path was created is to avoid obstructions that maybe in the geometry. Say you have a boss or something near the edge being chamfered, the 2D contour is not smart enough to avoid it. I personally don't recall this ever working in Fusion in the last year and a half at least. But on the plus side at least the chamfer lead out bug is fixed!
While working on laying up a run (which I've done a bit of), I could only select one body in CAM. I did recall seeing this video when it came out and knew the answer would be in it. It was a duh-moment (I'm sure you've already guessed I had not selected all bodies in my Setup) but the answer was indeed right in the beginning of the video. Many thanks (both for serving as a great reference and for the entertainment value; great job! )
Couple options for locations are the shoulder bolts but get them long enough to where the shoulder locates in a bored hole on the fixture as well, or mill a boss on the fixture and use a smaller screw size. That way you're not locating on threads at all.
Could do in two ops with the back chamfer as well, holes and pockets with chamfers on both details, back chamfer thru the holes. Flip, profile with chamfer, pockets with chamfer then back chamfer the profile. Probably chatter though on the pockets in the first op. I usually just chamfer holes like this in the Bridgeport though.
somebody should make like a mini pallet or something just for that.
Harvey tool makes a double chamfer tool that awesome. I use one all the time. I usually machine my fixtures where the part sits on an island so I can chamfer both sides in same setup.
Don't know if anyone else has brought it up, but you can use a single point thread mill as a chamfer and back-chamfer tool. It sounds great, but honestly it can be a pain if your material isn't always consistent. If the bottom of your material is on a located surface though that can work well. We just modified 80 pulleys to accept a bearing rather than the bushing they came with (wasn't durable enough for our use) and I used one to do all the chamfering.
John, this is one of the most helpful and useful videos on nesting components / cam ops in Fusion !
Hi John. Thanks for the video. I had a similar project a few months ago for a client and used almost exactly the same steps, albeit in Bobcad.
One thing I did to overcome the difference in bolt hole size vs Bolt diameter ( I didn't have shoulder bolts handy - 6.5mm hole and 6mm bolt) was to make up some small taper cones that have a 6mm hole that fit on the bolt. nothing fancy - made the tapers for the cones on the lathe with a file after drilling hole, part off, next. The cones then centralise the blank every time, and worked a treat.
Just some food for thought if the bolt hole doesn't suit a shoulder bolt or you need a quick fix....
Would 360 be better off with a feature to specify keep-out zones for work-holding devices etc? Or does it have that in some form already?
If you are doing the drilling and hole chamfering op in a vice, don't you have to worry about possible stick bow, so the chamfers in the center parts may be high or low?
I guess maybe you could treat the plate as a 3D surface and probe the plate center height before drilling to compensate for any bow, if Fusion is mart enough to adjust for different bows on different parts.
I haven't spent a lot of time in a machine shop, but my idea first would be to use extrusion closer to the size of one component like John said. for the first op I'd fixture using two indexing pins along the outside x axis of the part, and one on the y. i'd do two extrusions with two mitee bites in the center, with a similar indexing method for the other side.
I like back facing and back chamfering as it guarantees alignments. The main drawback which probably wouldn't be an issue here is tool deflection when you start getting into deeper operations. Going to make 10,000 of them, how about forging dies? :-) Thanks for the well paced video!
This was great, thank you. I'd love to see you follow through to machining the fixture and a set of parts, just for completeness. If you have time. Thanks!
Do we get to see chips?
You seem to be picking up well on the notion of maintaining stiffness as long as possible. 😋
Did you consider countersunk socket head screws to hold the parts? They don't have to be flush but can be lower than button head.
Another option for clamping that's used sometimes in automation is "collets" through the holes instead of screws that match the bore in the part and fixture. The collets can be expanded by internal draw bars that are pneumatically actuated. Unexpanded, the collet fits through the hole in the part. Such devices can save a lot of screwing around with fixtures, but take quite a bit more time to set up.
PS: if you left a floor of stock between parts after the second op., then there's only one part to flip. Downside is that you might get a small lip on the edge unless you leave a full-height finishing pass until very last.
Can you recommend a cutter size to drill a lot of 6mm holes? I can only use end mills. No drills. I wonder if 4mm or 5,8mm would be best.
How deep are these holes? With a 5.8mm endmill you will have more rigidity and be able to remove material quicker, however with a 4mm endmill you will have better chip evacuation. With only .2mm of clearance, you don't leave much room to evacuate chips in deep holes.
I am drilling Aluminium profiles, so Its four times 2mm material thickness stacked on top of each other. Chips can evacuate by beeing pushed aside. Its a depth of 20mm in total.
As far as the back chamfer just drill and mill your recesses on op 1 then flip and repeat and add your profile
Chris That was my thought as well.
Cheaper than form tooling.
I like seeing different people’s approach for a solution.
I watched this video a while back and thought cool a video on production and as far as patterning it helped but the elephant in the room it never touches on is sub programs. (canned cycle macros) These are essential for more complex production manufacturing of parts where cutting more than one part at a time using the same WCS zero would be too large for just about any control on the market. Where is that video and if you haven't made it can you?
Great content as always. I was litterally just thinking about how to do something like this
Is a section missing where you actually show how to use the back-chamfer tool?
Great work! Thanks John!
i literally was going to shoot you an email with a request for a Fusion Friday on production run fixtures this weekend. Any chance you could do a video on making pallets (if thats the correct term) that have a repeatable zero?
+NYCCNC Thanks for this and all the fusion Fridays!
email sent
Was that click spring music in the back ground?
Heh I kept thinking clickspring was playing on a different tab or something.
that tune comes from premium beat.com
It's good isn't it.
Revenge of the sad music. Love your videos. Just giving you a hard time :)
Because the indent in the part is so shallow is adaptive still a good strategy from a speed and tool wear perspective? It seems we can only use nearly the tip of the end mill so increase the width of the cut might be viable here?
It would be way faster to slot it (and possible with a shallow depth of cut like that) but the tool still wears a bunch more when slotting compared to side milling.
2d contour is all use for modeled chamfers.
Hey I can't believe I had an idea that you didn't: why not skip the first op in the vise, clamp the stk. to the fixture with the tapped holes already in it; drill, M00, bolt, carry on. if you use countersunk screws I bet you could keep the parts centered after flipping. :)
Yes. If your pallet or fixture is in the top of a vise you can just use your handy SMW clamps reaching under the pallet. :)
We do this for plexiglass windows that are cut from sheared material.
Oh and some 12"x12"x2" 6061 housings that get about 70% of the material removed. Second side is located to fixture by counterbores in part and on fixture with collars, completely captured locating feature.
@Steinwerks here btw. ;-)
atomkinder67 hey steinworks! Yeah, I love ditching a setup. The first time I did this I realized 'duh' the machine knows where the fixture is even if I cover it up. :)
Yes, and even though we have a Chick subplate I wrote a short probing program to locate it every time. It can vary up to about .0045" so this locates the WCS and height of the fixture (four offsets per run of two parts on the fixture) and offsets everything automatically. Wish I could share photos of that part.
Video compression artifacts are pretty bad in this video, did you record it on a different computer?
Sometimes the customer is wrong.
Strips where the way to go hands down for stock.
NYC CNC
Dealing with customers is like #6 on the list! Way up there. Just before "dealing with engineers"
So #5 would be Customers who are Engineers?
Jody Olivent
That would be #6 sub section 1 😆
What software do you use to capture screen?
Looks like camtasia
“Nobody ever saves the file too much!”
Its just a small dovetail cutter...
Wouldn't it be easier just to tell the customer to but some bar stock? He probably doesn't know or care what it gets cut out of.
Brian MacLeod it could be the customer already has the stock.
Just clicks way to fast lol you have to watch 12 times