No-load amps is impacted by both iron losses (eddy currents in the magnetic cores) and resistivity losses in the windings. Could be helpful to also measure amps with motor shaft locked (stall current) or the resistance of the windings. If most of the no-load current is due to iron losses, we might see better efficiency by operating the alternator with lower RPM and higher current. Obviously heat management is an issue in that case.
Did You try to feed less voltage to the rotor? At 3V it should run much faster and less power with no load (because motor generates less EMF with less current at rotor armature), but less torque. About the same power but at higher rpms. I think the best way is to make rotor current proportional to phase current (like on series brushed motors), not the constant - it will have good torque on start and low rpm and high max rpm.
What do you think the voltage limit of a typical 80-100 amp alternator would be, I know more about alternators being used as alternators, and they can easily output 100's of volts I have even heard 1000v thrown out, at full speed, do you think 96v or even 120v would bea sustainable voltage? And what current range do you think it would be, without overheating? I was thinking about 72-96v, maybe a 20-24s lithium battery 24s x 3.7/4.2v cells about 98v full charge, and normal operating voltage around 85-90volts, I know the winding resistance effects current, the controller switching also effects it as well, just curious if it's doable, or worth the effort?
Hi james, I guess the alternator could survive to 96V, but the The valeo was doing 1690rpm@24V means 6700rpm @ 96V Then it was sinking 580W at no load @48 means 1kW at 96 or more (depending by iron saturation?), so kind of lot Actually honestly, i can not imagine what would be the result, but a nice system with 96V(battery and controller) deserves a real motor. Unless you have every component at home already and you want to give a try with the alternators
Well what about non center tap alternators like delco 10 and 12 si? How to convert the to motors? Is it posibel to winde field wires with stationary wires in Series configuration?
Hi, I meant even without producing real work, you will consume a lot. This useless power consumption is remaining also when you drive the real load (example a small quad). So let s say that to run a small quad you will spend 300W at constant speed 20km/h, then you need additional 500W only to have the motor running
Hi , I would like to make an electric bike! I have 2 alternators! valeo 90A and a Marelli 120A I have a 48v 12Ah battery! which alternator do you recommend? I would like to prevent the battery from getting too hot !! Thanks
Mmm, hard to say, i would probably start with the smallest, or maybe the one i like more for mechanical mount. 12Ah is not too much, is it lithium or pb?
@@MakerFabio 12Ah lithium battery with 30A BMS forgot .... I also have another 70A Marelli alternator Posso scrivere in italiano ? L'inglese non è il mio forte
@@alfa1380 ciao certo Allora con 30A di BMS le batterie penso saranno tranquille (12Ah e 30A di corrente sono neanche 3C di scarica) e con 48V sei sui 1440W di picco. Proverei col 90A. O se lo speed controller è configurabile, puoi mettere il 120A e limitare l assorbimento dallo speed controller. Poi cè da dire che gli alternatori sono un po pesantini per le biciclette. Dimenticavo, le batterie saranno tranquille, ma il bms sará al limite
@@MakerFabio il mio controller è un 48/60/72v con corrente massima di 30A ! Ho fatto dei test a banco ( senza carico) e accelerando al massimo per pochi istanti mi è sembrato che la batteria si sia leggermente scaldata su di un lato ! Ma credo che sia la BMS ! Tu cosa ne pensi ? Non era bollente ma ho sentito un leggero calore... test fatto con l'alternatore da 120A Dimenticavo....il venditore dice che la mia batteria va bene per motori al massimo da 750 watt
@@alfa1380 mmm Max 740w È un po al limite per gli alternatori convertiti Misura la corrente e capisci quale è meglio usare, (so che per misurarla sotto carixo ti tocca costruire mezza bici) ma partirei col piccolo. 750w massimi vuol dire che i 30A sono di picco e meglio non chiederli continui.
this video is very well produced, i really enjoy it, i'll suscribe. Could you do the same test (i know its a lot of hard work, but it's for educational purposes of the community, ie me who lives in a third word country and don't have an alternator laying around for testing, let alone testing equipment xD) but lowering the rotor voltage at high rpm? you should get more rpm and less consumption, at low rpm you should increase that voltage for better torque. Greetings from Argentina.
Hi Thanks. I tried already , the rpm changed but the power consumption was almost the same. It was my first tentative to reduce it. So i didn’t film it. Maybe it could be worth to take a shoot and ahowinv rpm change. But i used the 2 esc for 2 vehicles already
@@MakerFabio hey man thanks for the response, oh thats weird, i would expect a reduction as the magnetic field reduces because, for my understanding, that would reduce impedance and eddy currents if i'm not mistaken, but ill take your word for it. Hope you make more diy EV content in the future if you have the time to.
@@MakerFabio DIY EV is a great topic for youtube, i know you are aware that this is your 2nd most watched video on the channel, so your time wouldn't be wasted. in top of that the diy community would find you eventually and both benefit from it. we all should get together and develop a "new" esc specifically designed for the alternator, because of this variable magnetic field i think that this feature is very interesting and it SHOULD be used, i could imagine a arduino managing the rotor voltage giving a lot of current when you need that extra acceleration, and reducing it at the minimum when cruising or eco mode (ie low battery), all this if it's worth it...if you make your measurements and the gains are marginal why bother, with all of this being said i still think that this worth my time, i eventually start to test things my self when i grow my economy. we'll be in touch.
@@cuentos.narrados i agree with all you said. Even if i fear losses could be due to tick lamination or poor ( high losses) material in the alternator, you know in petrol car they are not so afraid about efficiency, as long as the altrrnator can withstand the heat. They look more about price and reliability. (I work on automotive electronic) Also the rotor shape is not the best with all those “triangles” poles, mainly for easy winding and production, so i guess it is not easy for the esc to correctly detect the position. I was thinking about same idea with Arduino controlling the rotor voltage, reading the motor rpm, then i gave up shen i ve seen the bad efficiency. But let’s see. I also have an Arduino brushless shield from infineon. Maybe i can use this one to do both the regulations.Lets see. About your economy situation, keep learning and study electronic and sw, there is big need of developers, and lot of company are switching to 100% remote working . so you could have good salary in every part of the word . Have a nice day
Sorry, but there is way too much accent for me to understand especially in the technical aspects. In technical areas he should use added text (and leave it up long enough for someone to actually read it). I came here solely to understand how efficient the percent of motor used as a motor is compared to an alternator used as a motor. In some superficial theory the loss could be very minimal. I could see effectiveness in doing this if it was the case.
Ahahhaha. Sorry this comment was so funny to read. The dude is from Venice or near it. They have an unmistakable accent. They are hard to understand even when they speak Italian.
great video.. i knew this the first day i seen a conversion to use it as a motor.. stupid idea.. you will end up with almost 100 lbs of battery to have fun with it..
@@MakerFabio in the USA they have been doing that for 50 years.. it was never a thing because the power it took to turn them into motors.. they do have a speed controller to regulate the current but it is not even worth getting into.. i seen it 10 years ago where they needed a 48volt battery to run it for 10 minutes..your channel deserves so many more views.. you may need to run 2 alternators (1) with excitor wire to actually charge the system instead of running straight off the battery.. like 50 amp as motor but 100 amp as actual alternator.. the problem is getting 800 rpm..
@@chriscraft2 why is it stupid ? It's a cheap way to have a powerful motor and here you can trash it however you want ..beat it ..destroy it and it will still run ..you can dump huge currents and it won't complain..do that with a Chinese brushless ...it will die in no time do to overheat ..if you want somethin serious you have to spend 150e ..then you ...or you get a big boy motor like the QS ones ..but they cost from 300+ shipping + taxes so you spend 400+ euros only on a single motor
Ciao, gran bel video! proprio ieri ho iniziato la conversione di un alternatore a magneti permanenti al neodimio. Si tratta di un alternatore del 1.3 Multijet della Fiat, dovrebbe essere un Denso da 50/60watt Vorrei anche mettergli i sensori hall per fare una cosa fatta bene e soprattutto farlo girare da entrambi i sensi perchè alla fine vorrei provare a convertire un piccolo fuoribordo marino... L'unica cosa di cui sono veramente in dubbio è la potenza del piccolo motore e i suoi consumi. Vorrei avere un'autonomia di almeno 3 ore... ma la vedo veramente molto molto dura...
Ciao Sto convertendo anche io un piccolo motore marino, ma useró un brushless da un paio di kw che costa circa 35 euro o poco piu. Anche coi sensori dai video in rete sembra avere grosse perdite, e il peso è altino. Andrei in un motore vero fossi in te
@@antonio.stefanelli penso ci sia il link sul mio video quello della moto per bambini convertita. Cosi vedi anche le dimensioni, quello era 1800w (cinesi)
Ok, grazie, ho visto il video ed ho capito quale motore intendi, ma è troppo piccolo, non ha abbastanza coppia un motore così piccolo. stavo pensando a quei motori da 3Kw, sempre cinesi, sempre brushless, che vengono alimentati a 72v e fanno 4hp, quelli sì che andrebbero bene, ma mi rimane il problema delle batterie... 72v e almeno una 40ina di Ampere è tanta roba... Troppa roba...
No-load amps is impacted by both iron losses (eddy currents in the magnetic cores) and resistivity losses in the windings. Could be helpful to also measure amps with motor shaft locked (stall current) or the resistance of the windings.
If most of the no-load current is due to iron losses, we might see better efficiency by operating the alternator with lower RPM and higher current. Obviously heat management is an issue in that case.
Thank you I was searching an explanation to why we have such huge losses
Trř23³³³ den är
@@fabiofoltran4361🎉
Thank u for this video. Super informative. God bless u
Very nice reference on amps and thank you from Australia
So which one was most efficient?
At 48v what was the rpm plz?
There is a fan blades on rotor. Even at idle it consumes some power.
Did You try to feed less voltage to the rotor? At 3V it should run much faster and less power with no load (because motor generates less EMF with less current at rotor armature), but less torque. About the same power but at higher rpms. I think the best way is to make rotor current proportional to phase current (like on series brushed motors), not the constant - it will have good torque on start and low rpm and high max rpm.
Hi
It could be a good Idea
I didnt try it. Or better i tried at several rotor voltage, but only aiming to maximize the output power and torque
What do you think the voltage limit of a typical 80-100 amp alternator would be, I know more about alternators being used as alternators, and they can easily output 100's of volts I have even heard 1000v thrown out, at full speed, do you think 96v or even 120v would bea sustainable voltage? And what current range do you think it would be, without overheating? I was thinking about 72-96v, maybe a 20-24s lithium battery 24s x 3.7/4.2v cells about 98v full charge, and normal operating voltage around 85-90volts, I know the winding resistance effects current, the controller switching also effects it as well, just curious if it's doable, or worth the effort?
Hi james, I guess the alternator could survive to 96V, but the
The valeo was doing 1690rpm@24V means 6700rpm @ 96V
Then it was sinking 580W at no load @48 means 1kW at 96 or more (depending by iron saturation?), so kind of lot
Actually honestly, i can not imagine what would be the result, but a nice system with 96V(battery and controller) deserves a real motor. Unless you have every component at home already and you want to give a try with the alternators
@@MakerFabio Feed it with less rotor armature voltage/current and it will rotate faster.
Well what about non center tap alternators like delco 10 and 12 si?
How to convert the to motors?
Is it posibel to winde field wires with stationary wires in Series configuration?
Not sure about your question
And i guess would be too long explain with text
Sorry for this
Muchas gracias estaba buscando información al respecto alguna fuente que puedas recomendar..?
can you put more than 8vdc to the rotor? like 12vdc?
tanks for sharing... homemade ebike process here.. delco delta 120A 14vdc alternator as motor...
You can, but you are wasting power and overheating a little the rotor
I believe that a car alternator will make better if you use a AC motor controller that if you use a brushless permanent magnet controller.
Mmm, never thought about this. Do you have any link or part number for low voltage ac controller? I will have a look
@@MakerFabio Search for AC induction motor controller, you will find many.
@@gonzalop.chomon327 i tried to contact kellycontrollers, lets see what they say
@@MakerFabio They usually don't answer technical emails... :(
Hi ...what do you mean that is no load..?? . is that bad thing ?? Thank you
Hi, I meant even without producing real work, you will consume a lot. This useless power consumption is remaining also when you drive the real load (example a small quad). So let s say that to run a small quad you will spend 300W at constant speed 20km/h, then you need additional 500W only to have the motor running
@@MakerFabio thank you so much for the explaine nice channel .
But if you making a neodium rotor it will be better ...thank you again
Hi , I would like to make an electric bike! I have 2 alternators! valeo 90A and a Marelli 120A I have a 48v 12Ah battery! which alternator do you recommend? I would like to prevent the battery from getting too hot !!
Thanks
Mmm, hard to say, i would probably start with the smallest, or maybe the one i like more for mechanical mount.
12Ah is not too much, is it lithium or pb?
@@MakerFabio
12Ah lithium battery with 30A BMS
forgot .... I also have another 70A Marelli alternator
Posso scrivere in italiano ?
L'inglese non è il mio forte
@@alfa1380 ciao certo
Allora con 30A di BMS le batterie penso saranno tranquille (12Ah e 30A di corrente sono neanche 3C di scarica) e con 48V sei sui 1440W di picco. Proverei col 90A. O se lo speed controller è configurabile, puoi mettere il 120A e limitare l assorbimento dallo speed controller. Poi cè da dire che gli alternatori sono un po pesantini per le biciclette. Dimenticavo, le batterie saranno tranquille, ma il bms sará al limite
@@MakerFabio il mio controller è un 48/60/72v con corrente massima di 30A !
Ho fatto dei test a banco ( senza carico) e accelerando al massimo per pochi istanti mi è sembrato che la batteria si sia leggermente scaldata su di un lato ! Ma credo che sia la BMS ! Tu cosa ne pensi ?
Non era bollente ma ho sentito un leggero calore...
test fatto con l'alternatore da 120A
Dimenticavo....il venditore dice che la mia batteria va bene per motori al massimo da 750 watt
@@alfa1380 mmm
Max 740w
È un po al limite per gli alternatori convertiti
Misura la corrente e capisci quale è meglio usare, (so che per misurarla sotto carixo ti tocca costruire mezza bici) ma partirei col piccolo. 750w massimi vuol dire che i 30A sono di picco e meglio non chiederli continui.
Знакомьтесь с клавиатурой Gboard! Здесь будет сохраняться текст, который вы копируете.🎉
this video is very well produced, i really enjoy it, i'll suscribe. Could you do the same test (i know its a lot of hard work, but it's for educational purposes of the community, ie me who lives in a third word country and don't have an alternator laying around for testing, let alone testing equipment xD) but lowering the rotor voltage at high rpm? you should get more rpm and less consumption, at low rpm you should increase that voltage for better torque. Greetings from Argentina.
Hi
Thanks. I tried already , the rpm changed but the power consumption was almost the same. It was my first tentative to reduce it. So i didn’t film it. Maybe it could be worth to take a shoot and ahowinv rpm change. But i used the 2 esc for 2 vehicles already
@@MakerFabio hey man thanks for the response, oh thats weird, i would expect a reduction as the magnetic field reduces because, for my understanding, that would reduce impedance and eddy currents if i'm not mistaken, but ill take your word for it. Hope you make more diy EV content in the future if you have the time to.
@@cuentos.narrados ok, in the meantime i ll try to fetch another esc and make this experiment filmed, i see the topic is really lf interest
@@MakerFabio DIY EV is a great topic for youtube, i know you are aware that this is your 2nd most watched video on the channel, so your time wouldn't be wasted. in top of that the diy community would find you eventually and both benefit from it. we all should get together and develop a "new" esc specifically designed for the alternator, because of this variable magnetic field i think that this feature is very interesting and it SHOULD be used, i could imagine a arduino managing the rotor voltage giving a lot of current when you need that extra acceleration, and reducing it at the minimum when cruising or eco mode (ie low battery), all this if it's worth it...if you make your measurements and the gains are marginal why bother, with all of this being said i still think that this worth my time, i eventually start to test things my self when i grow my economy. we'll be in touch.
@@cuentos.narrados i agree with all you said. Even if i fear losses could be due to tick lamination or poor ( high losses) material in the alternator, you know in petrol car they are not so afraid about efficiency, as long as the altrrnator can withstand the heat. They look more about price and reliability. (I work on automotive electronic) Also the rotor shape is not the best with all those “triangles” poles, mainly for easy winding and production, so i guess it is not easy for the esc to correctly detect the position. I was thinking about same idea with Arduino controlling the rotor voltage, reading the motor rpm, then i gave up shen i ve seen the bad efficiency. But let’s see. I also have an Arduino brushless shield from infineon. Maybe i can use this one to do both the regulations.Lets see.
About your economy situation, keep learning and study electronic and sw, there is big need of developers, and lot of company are switching to 100% remote working . so you could have good salary in every part of the word . Have a nice day
sounds like bearings need replacement. this will make the load tests irrelevant.
Sorry, but there is way too much accent for me to understand especially in the technical aspects.
In technical areas he should use added text (and leave it up long enough for someone to actually read it). I came here solely to understand how efficient the percent of motor used as a motor is compared to an alternator used as a motor. In some superficial theory the loss could be very minimal. I could see effectiveness in doing this if it was the case.
Hi , are the subtitles (closed caption) working on this video?
Sorry for this
Ahahhaha. Sorry this comment was so funny to read. The dude is from Venice or near it. They have an unmistakable accent. They are hard to understand even when they speak Italian.
great video.. i knew this the first day i seen a conversion to use it as a motor.. stupid idea.. you will end up with almost 100 lbs of battery to have fun with it..
I feared that too. But still i will keep them for some experiments, they look solid as tank
@@MakerFabio in the USA they have been doing that for 50 years.. it was never a thing because the power it took to turn them into motors.. they do have a speed controller to regulate the current but it is not even worth getting into.. i seen it 10 years ago where they needed a 48volt battery to run it for 10 minutes..your channel deserves so many more views.. you may need to run 2 alternators (1) with excitor wire to actually charge the system instead of running straight off the battery.. like 50 amp as motor but 100 amp as actual alternator.. the problem is getting 800 rpm..
@@chriscraft2 why is it stupid ? It's a cheap way to have a powerful motor and here you can trash it however you want ..beat it ..destroy it and it will still run ..you can dump huge currents and it won't complain..do that with a Chinese brushless ...it will die in no time do to overheat ..if you want somethin serious you have to spend 150e ..then you ...or you get a big boy motor like the QS ones ..but they cost from 300+ shipping + taxes so you spend 400+ euros only on a single motor
use a 1.5kw controller (sensorless)
I tested 2 sensorless controller already, What would change with the 1.5 kw?
Interessante. Vediamo che trovo
Grazie Fammi sapere se trovi info su come migliorare, o dati non in linea
@@MakerFabio certo
Ciao, gran bel video!
proprio ieri ho iniziato la conversione di un alternatore a magneti permanenti al neodimio. Si tratta di un alternatore del 1.3 Multijet della Fiat, dovrebbe essere un Denso da 50/60watt
Vorrei anche mettergli i sensori hall per fare una cosa fatta bene e soprattutto farlo girare da entrambi i sensi perchè alla fine vorrei provare a convertire un piccolo fuoribordo marino...
L'unica cosa di cui sono veramente in dubbio è la potenza del piccolo motore e i suoi consumi. Vorrei avere un'autonomia di almeno 3 ore... ma la vedo veramente molto molto dura...
Ciao
Sto convertendo anche io un piccolo motore marino, ma useró un brushless da un paio di kw che costa circa 35 euro o poco piu. Anche coi sensori dai video in rete sembra avere grosse perdite, e il peso è altino. Andrei in un motore vero fossi in te
@@MakerFabio Ciao, grazie, hai un link per vedere questi motori così economici e così potenti?
@@antonio.stefanelli penso ci sia il link sul mio video quello della moto per bambini convertita. Cosi vedi anche le dimensioni, quello era 1800w (cinesi)
@@antonio.stefanelli ua-cam.com/video/UFlK8RWEn6E/v-deo.html
Ok, grazie, ho visto il video ed ho capito quale motore intendi, ma è troppo piccolo, non ha abbastanza coppia un motore così piccolo.
stavo pensando a quei motori da 3Kw, sempre cinesi, sempre brushless, che vengono alimentati a 72v e fanno 4hp, quelli sì che andrebbero bene, ma mi rimane il problema delle batterie... 72v e almeno una 40ina di Ampere è tanta roba... Troppa roba...
Put a helmet on that kid
자막번역기 해주세요
Je adore les français language tu parles anglais much bon tu parles français ?
Hi, sorry, i like the french language sound too, but i speak only english and Italian
@@MakerFabio i Hope to learn Italian i like the pasta ideal, and with an electric motor a person can afford restaurant visits,,,