All hail open-source. The fact that people can achieve this in their own workspace is mind-blowing . No more waiting for sponsorships and funding - think it - build it. Incredible.
Thank you! yep! I won't wait for sponsorships or funding but they're happening as I progress anyways, so that's awesome too because I can probably work more on this on the future :)
I'm thrilled to follow along with this. The community NEEDS more edge-case/off-the-beaten-track projects like this actually getting documented with more detail than just pointing a webcam at the final product! Thanks for sharing!
I completely agree. I am doing my best in that too by developing a supportless(mostly) non-planar slicer that can work with the low clearence of most printers of around 10°. I can't wait to share it. Will most likely end up doing a devlog blog on it. In the mean time I can't wait to see other projects like this. Or even Chronic Mechatronic's ultea low tech 50$ 3d printer.
You know what's beautiful about the 3d printing community? It's always evolving and the reason is the "community". Every now and then we see some individual/company (mostly individuals) give back to community by releasing their developments as open source.
That's the goal! I just want to iron out the issues first so others don't struggle as much, and then I'll release the frame as open source. I will be ecstatic if just one other person on the planet builds something I created.
@@engineerunleashed i'm working in 3d assistance and support, i just doing this because i love this world if you release that stay sure then i build it, just for information how did you resolve the "problem" about 3 axis slicer?
This guy is a Serious engineer. It's common for an engineer to know one "art" really well, but to be adept at electrical, mechanical, and software is very impressive. I hope some technology company has been smart enough to hire you. Resume? Point them at this video! I tip my hat to you, sir!
I agree this guy is one hell of a damn good engineer. He deserves to be very successful in his career, just on the basis of what he has done so far. If he can find allies that can help with the software to provide a system and human interface to his 5-axis prototype, it can come into its own as a truly usable tool for so many people. And his place in technology history will be assured.
5 axis has been popular in the cnc milling world for so long now. It's about time the 3d printing world caught up. Yeah, they will be more expensive for hobbyists, but I'm sure people will be willing to buy them.
@@-Kal- 99.9% of the time its superfluous. a gimmick. theres virtually no advantage for a lot of extra complexity. printers arent worried about drilling accurate holes at specific angles and depths, they are ADDITIVE. the complexity of slicing software, of toolpath strategies... tool collision avoidance... of simply deciding which way to slice something... spend five minutes with even standard 3 axis machines. you are concerned about completely different aspects that are NOT applicable to printing. have you ever opened EVERY setting on your slicer? fiddled with EVERYTHING? hundreds of different things to alter, and thats before you have even sliced it... now multiply that by 3, 4... how many more options are you suddenly presented with? the software requirements alone are mind-bending. your average user wants to hit "print", not spend months figuring out a suitable strategy to slice an image so it can print... get enough failures with plain old 2.5d as it is... the only use i can see for multi axis printing is to make propellers. can make a core with lengthwise strands for tensile strength, then come in and wrap it with an outer skin at right angles to hold it together and smooth it out. again, write the slicer that will actually DO that... simply adding a few moves to existing code isnt proving anything... you need something that can keep track of what its printed, where its printed, how its printed... do you specify particular orientations? or let the slicer do it? how do you select elements you want with specific properties? suddenly the need for the information to be part of the file itself is important... and suddenly the cad, the drawing side of things has to change to accomodate the feature as well... integration on so many levels... and then theres cost.... go get a quote for say, "bobcad"... some 5 axis milling software... try a demo. see how complex it is...
@paradiselost9946 I agree that the slicer will be the most challenging part. I wouldn't want to develop it myself. Post processing gcode is more my speed. I doubt we'll ever see a slicer with 5 axis options equivalent to Fusion 360, let alone the most hard-core CAM. I guess I envision a simple 5 axis slicer working like this: you start your print on a base plane, the build plate. In your slicer you create planes slicing through your model at whatever angle you need. The printer will print as much as it can in the first orientation then tilt and rotate to print from your sliced workplane. The slicer would need to run a solver to make sure the print is possible with the chosen planes. For a proof of concept, a Blender script could slice the model with planes, storing the position and orientation of the pieces. The pieces of the model are sliced with a 3 axis slicer, then a third script would put the gcode together, positioning the bed relative to the slicing plane. If someone sent me a 5 axis printer I'd happily do that much, and I'm some some devs will write a basic slicer eventually. I think the appeal of 5 axis 3d printing is simply that it's interesting. The 3d printing hobby scene is mostly for fun, as far as I can tell. Maybe it's superfluous to use 5 axis when you could use 3 axis with supports, but people already use 3d printers for problems that could be solved with duct tape. I think people will want 5 axis.
You are reading my mind @-Kal- That's how I envisioned it but the points @paradiselost9946 mention are totally correct. Lets get the ball rolling! the open source community is amazing, I'm sure someone else in the planet want to spend free time chasing this as myself. I just want to do my bit hoping it's somehow useful for someone other than me to start playing around with the idea...
@@paradiselost9946 you have to remember though, Alot of the complexity in 4, 5 axis, etc is also in regards to tooling. just think about how much ball endmills changes orientations and then you got complete special form cutters. once it's figured out, it's only the nozzle you'd worry about so imo it would be simpler still. of course it seems too difficult for it to be worth it, but id argue thats how alot of things are when they are first developed. End case usefulness is a subject of opinion. Your propeller example is already enough of a reason to keep developing this to me
He's back! Glad to see people aren't sleeping on how great this is. We're seeing the future of 3D printing being forged in real time. This isn't going to hit production any time soon due to adhesion issues on large models, but it ABSOLUTELY will one day because the ability to avoid supports is simply that valuable
Possibly the second biggest benefit to your printer is the potential to utilize a *square opening nozzle* since you can overcome the x,y coordinate directionality limitation/compromise of traditional printers that require a circular opening to accommodate the non x,y coordinate movements. I'd love to see what this produces.
Nice work. I appreciate all the hard work it takes to innovate and create. I know it can feel like an endless list of struggles and not always know where it is going. Your work is here is part of what will change the future of 3d printing. Way to go!
A. Electroplate nickel "BB's" with copper for better voltage/current transfer w/o causing resistance (crosman sells copper plated 4.5mm "BB's") B. See if you can get a firm spring (like a recoil spring from a pistol spring) to apply tension on the bed rotational bearing, you can tighten, then the spring will allow slight flex and maintain good contact C. Ingenious design!
When I saw the rings for your bed conductivity, I just had to mention this. Take a look at how the power setup/generator cabling works in wind turbines. They do some fancy twisted cabling to enable them to turn the turbine head around as many times as it wants without tangling the wires. It'll be a much more stable connection than trying to use bearing conductivity. Robert Murray-Smith did a video on it a while ago.
Wow this is so interesting! Regarding the layer shifting and microsteps - I might be misunderstanding something, but my imediate instinct is that it's like a cumulating "rounding error", for lack of a better term. Like, when the microsteps are set to a lower value, when the motor wants to move from say position "1.2" to position "1.5", but the low microsteps setting means it's only allow it to move in "0.2" increments, then it can only move to "1.4" or "1.6". Whereas larger microstep number means (if I understand correctly) a higher "resolution", so it can move in say "0.02" increments instead, so it can reach "1.48" or "1.52" which is much closer to where it wants to be. If the difference from where it wants to be to where it actually goes to is large enough, it will cause the shifting you see. This makes me wonder if you could potentially solve the issue by adjusting gear ratios in certain places, because they might be amplifying those small discrepancies to a point where it becomes a problem. That's just my imediate instinct though, and I might be wildly misunderstanding what microsteps actually mean 😅
Nice work ! 5 years ago I did add 4-th rotational axis to a Delta printer and make it work with Machinekit - which is more suited for this kind of kinematics and have some build-in support of it. It was a big fun, but unfortunately hardware part - was an easy part, next big roadblock will be G-Code generation for additional axis, currently some slicers just scratching a surface of non-planar printing. If you need some help with Klipper or with hardware - feel free to ping me, will gladly help you to move forward.
True that!! I am still amazed the plastic worm gears can do this. Honestly, I didn't have much faith considering the poor rigidity, but seems to do "good enough" for me to move to the slicing problem.
I did not know about your channel until today and I thought about this problem in the past and I have been busy on other things but I took inspirations from CNC machine center where the head moved around and went huh why don't we do that with 3d printer and it comes with some issues of course but I use to work on hydraulics going all the way up 4000 psi at 100 gpm and we used a positive displacement screw pump and I thought about how we could use that same tech to move it all around you could print upside down if you really wanted to but the pump would just be the hot end you would still need a extruder. But it would work you would have to prime it and preheat and get the rest of the gunk out possible have to take it apart to clean it every once in a while but it’s there. The idea is for anyone and I believe it will work ultimately in the right hands with the right mind. I hope this finds someone else who has way more time then I do in the open source community you guys have been a huge help in problems or helping me fil in gaps of knowledge I have.
I was just wondering how you'd been going with this project, and here comes a brilliant and detailed update! Thanks for sharing your curiosity and challenges with us, it's fascinating and inspiring.
Outstanding Project Result. I need to print Model Train Parts and have wanted 5 axis for years. But now I see it working. For small parts it looks perfect. But I would have to build the whole machine, not just modify my CR10S Pro. I was thinking a table top 2 axis component to sit on top of the Y axis Table. Like on a Milling Machine. You approach is different but does achieve the objective. Great effort thank you for sharing. Dennis in Virginia USA
From what I have seen so far (only found your channel 2 weeks ago) this looks like a very promising/inspiring project. Can't wait for more updates & thank you for putting it out there.
This is an amazing achievement. I am an experienced builder of 3D printers. Yet this is extremely complicated, so I will never attempt this. The slicer, yes, that is of course still a huge problem to get right. Congratulations on this result.
If you do have problems with your rotary union using stainless steel bearings, i have a design that is used in my industry for our rotating turrets. They transfer 480V to the servo motors that run the turret rotation so its long term robust. I know youre not pushing anything near 480V through those ball bearings so id like to think you wont ever have any problems with pitting or deterioration of them, but if you do happen to notice wear long term, i will gladly share how its done at the industrial level
Thanks a lot!! I've ordered same pieces in copper for now (just in case stainless steal fails), but I can't wait to see if anybody re-designs and improves anything from this!
A sugestion... I see your are using two spurgears and two worm gears to control de round motion of the printed part as it's being printed. I believe you could implement a system of steel cables os even belts attached to the middle of the platarform for the printed part and with an motor at the top of the machine (3D printer). This way you could have less wear and maybe a better mechanical advantage. What I noticed in the video is that each side of the "U" plataform seems to be moving in slighly different speeds or lengths, in other words, the "U" platform seems to disalign as it is moving the printed part. Keep up the great work. Your machine is really cool and interesting.
yes you're right! One of the problems with calibrating this is that I can't really tell if the right and left side of A is at the exact same position. I have something in mind for that. But your idea does make a lot of sense too! I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the comment!
Amazing work man this is so awesome. Im really happy you did the run down of the gcode. You definitely explain it in a easy to understand way. Cant wait to see the 5th axis slicer, you really are making some major moves in the hobby brotha and I wish you all the best and hope it comes with not to much head scratching and banging lol
Check out 4th axis quick change machining fixturing. your C axis assembly is similar to some ive seen. It could be a very repeatable option for the C axis and bed
Awesome project! From what I see, it might be better to keep the axis of rotation stationary, and move the interior chassis holding the print bed “up/down”(inward/outward) instead of moving the rotation parts up and down. This will allow you to have a constant axis of rotation throughout the print, rather than adjusting the rotation axis up and down as you change the Z axis.
Curious: What is the reason for this? What do you wish to achieve with the 4th axis over 4? The demo prints don't tell me about the advantages of the 5th axis, especially since I'm not sure I understand correctly that there is no correction for the z-axis for the tilt axis? Or is the slicing just the next step in the journey to a true 3d-not-2.5d-printer?
with 5 axis CNC mills you usually have some kinematic lookup table to offset the Shift of the Position of the origin point when moving the additional axis. would guess that effect is what you see on the prints.
Como andas papá? Otros pensaran que es un ingles malo, pero yo note ese Argentino desde el principio. Proyectazo loco, segui para delante que es realmente impresionante. Felicitaciones 🟦⬜☀⬜🟦 ---- ⭐⭐⭐
I love the concept, but just a tip, that nozzle probe cannot stay if you want the printer to go fast. The end of the nozzle being able to move around is not going to be conducive to any kind of good print quality. Even some solution to lock the toolhead would yield significant results. ~someone who's been screwing with printers for way too long
very interesting and promising! While the application of this may be niche, I hope you don't get discouraged by comments on how this is superfluous and overengineered. Yes, it is overengineered for the demos you made, but there is an engineering problem out there that this could be a solution to! right away, I can see that this has excellent potential at handling overhangs. Many solutions for overhangs exist already, like printing at an angle or printing subassemblies, but this could have the advantages of angled printing in every direction as required, without the need for assembly. As others have also pointed out, printing a few layers perpendicular to the layers of the whole print, perhaps in the core or on the outside, could provide a huge increase in tensile and torsion strength of the finished piece - I am very curious to see 5-ax strength test prints!
Most of the comments are really positive! I was afraid of the feedback too, but I think most of us understand that this won't be perfect. It's a really difficult problem for a single person to resolve. Some day, something like this will be commercially viable. I think that day is not any time soon, but it will happen and I wanted to do my bit. Thanks for the support!
I loved your project, you have done a great job and I am sure that in the future it can be implemented in some way to improve the quality of 3D prints, but I see a problem that is difficult to solve and that is the limit distance between the base and the extruder, since if the piece is very high and separates itself too much from the base laterally, the bending of the piece will cause printing failures.
this is awesome, this machine ask for a creation of a machining program like the ones used for metal, imagine doing a box with horizontal lines and then adding vertical lines outside the box in all its perimeter for example, that would make the parts totally stronger.
Very interesting. I had a similar issue with klipper and an acs606 driver from leadshine, the axis keep on shifting in one direction while printing. I discarded that driver thinking I fried it (I connected it to power on reverse), but the replacement I bought has the same issue. It worked just fine in Linuxcnc. There must be something weird with klipper and the timing of the switching of the dir / pul signals.
Hy, i was watching the video and saw the rotating table at 5:40 and i thought you could simplify the contacts by using 2 copper rings on the outside of the part from above that rotates and some pogo pings contacts that contact the rotating piece on the two rings and are fixed to the part from below; and use axial bearings in the middle with a spring and nut at the top
That's a good idea! I have some pogo pins but they are too small, they look like needles. They may damage the boards but I should get some other better suited pogo pins and try that out. Lets see how much does it take to wear this one out first!
Congratulations on the great work my friend! I wish I had the focus to be able to complete projects like this, I always seem to get distracted and never finish my projects.
That's the story of my life! I have dozens of half working projects around my nerd cave. I can tell you that if I wasn't making the videos, probably the cabling would be held by duct tape, for example.
Subscribed! I am curious though, why not make the printhead axis pivot instead of the bed, and then just have the bed rotate while staying stationary? This would give you much more surface area to work with, and the weight would not increase as the plastic builds up causing the pivot gears being strained.
It's kind of a trade off... what you propose has some benefits, and some people tried that as well, but my intention was to always print "upwards". If I rotate the printhead I will need to deal with the effects of gravity over the hanging plastic and manage to add some support material beforehand too. Does that make sense? I thought this approach was simpler, but maybe I am missing something. Time will tell!
Im super stoked to see this work. At the same time im super sad as I had this same plan to turn my older Ender 3 pro into a 5 axis printer lol. However, i guess im not really upset cause its just awesome. Good work
I think you think you could print some interesting propellers on this. You could using 3 axis mode to print the hub of the propeller then rotate the hub 90 degrees and then print the blades radially around the hub. Normally when propellers are 3D printed the blades have pour surface finish due to the support material required for the overhangs.
I've seen some videos in UA-cam of people doing that, but the slicing process seems quite complicated. Seems like the use case we all want to see. Hopefully one day I'll get there!
You are losing steps when switching driver directions. Read the manual for the driver, there is a minimum delay time before you can send step pulses after changing the direction signal. Change your duet stepper timing config to increase that delay.
I swear man I've been thinking about an idea like this for years I am so glad someone finally was able to pull this idea from the Aether and make it a reality. I know it is a shit ton of work and you've done so well congratulations you should be really proud of yourself. Now let a manufacturer license it and start pumping them out because I want one. Do you think maybe there is going to be a Kickstarter for this? What are your plans for the future for this printer/design?
Once I iron out some aspects I will open source the STL files so anybody can build one. Please build one then! I would be so happy to see other people improving on top of my designs!!
Now that FDM 3-axis printers are using some of the finest extrusion nozzles possible and printing in-place rotary hinges this is the sensible next step, to eliminate the need for supports and allow aligning the layers along the structure. With startup funding I have no doubt you could end up designing for your own company, all the patents have expired for 5-axis metal machining.
Increible trabajo Mariano! me encanto tu proyecto... Creo que esto, sumado a la Inteligencia Artificial puede realmente darle el proximo futuro a la Impresion 3D. Slicers con IA que mapeen superficies y logren conseguir los mejores caminos para imprimir segun la pieza, dandole al usuario la eleccion si quiere velocidad, mejores resultados, imprimir sin soportes... El proximo paso seria mejorar la conexion con los motores que terminan poniendo ruido en las piezas impresas. Y en 2-5 años tenemos impresoras capaces de emular cualquier pieza con gran detalle y bajo costo
Have you checked that the step signal polarity is the same on your controller and stepper driver? It will work fine if your controller sends active high and the step driver expects active low, but the first step after a direction change will be wrong. And the resulting error would be far more pronounced with fewer microsteps. Although it's unlikely to cause such a consistent layer shift, it's worth a try. You might want to check the pulse duration, too. The direction signal could be to quick to consistently "catch" the step signal.
You need to write a RTCP function that calculates where the XYZ points move when rotaries are turned. These are usually matrix calculations using the machine kinematics. This is how a 5-axis milling machine works. In standard G-code, the function is called G43.4 and with vectors it’s G43.5. Then you could use a standard slicer and manually add those angles, the part shape should stay the same.
Awesome work! I think that for a slicer, you actually need a kind of spherical tomography. Like a bounding sphere that is made of layer height peels. To achieve this you can start from the center of the object, the smallest sphere that fits into your object and intersect each point with the next bounding sphere to find the coordinates to go to.
it would depend entirely on the object... a strategy for each type has to be selected... considering the number of options in standard slicers, and considering the complexity of even 3 axis CNC machining in comparison to printing... and in some ways, machining is easy. all you gotta worry about is not running into things! this has no use other than VERY select items that are better being made other ways anyway... i keep on thinking of propellers... so, you have a slicer that scales the image down in layer depths... specifiy the internal core or layer is lengthwise down each blade... can be printed as "vase mode" as well, yet still be solid! then chase it up with a layer or two of skin at right angles to hold it together... other objects... i can only see the same deal as multi materials... has to be specified in the object file itself, that there are separate entities......
Yes I imagine one good day someone will have the reason to develop a slicer with many strategies. Something similar to the many manufacture capabilities of the CAM software like Fusion. Let's agree this is probably years away from "useful", nothing better than the simplicity of current FDM printers and the current slicers. At least at hobbyist level.... This is more for fun than for usefulness though.
@@paradiselost9946 I was thinking about printing each peel from the inside out. It's actually the same thing you do with a lathe on cylindrical movement only this is inverted and a spherical movement. Any kind of object is possible having only the contact space as a limitation. This kind of print is already done by robot arms that weld. The calculation is actually not so complicated. The intersections of each projected peel with the actual object can be calculated with wolfram matematica for example.
@@CorneliuTicu dont get me wrong, i saw the startegy straight away. a dodecahedron, simple... but even then, so many strategies to take! bed surface... cant start at an infinite point, need some area... thats a limitation. would be nice to print on a pinhead, dandelion like.. but you got a stem to deal with. so you start on a face, build up to the calculated center of a shape, from there, sure...can have say, walls on all vertices, with infill as expanding cuboids or something... end up wrapping it all in some strange hilbert curve... but does it really serve any goal? does it have an advantage? the welder doing welds, its faster, cheaper, and more consistent than humans. it has an advantage. whereas the end use of the average print doesnt justify it, imho. only a few niche limited uses where the ability to use lamination properties would be a bonus. certain overhangs may benefit, maybe some advantage on support materials... and thats another one... a bedslinger is a lot of momentum to deal with, gets back to the bed area and starting point issue... it fascinates me, but i got enough frustration with my own machines! i tell you what though... welding... as a METAL printer... who did that? cranktown city? threw a mig welder on his printer? yeah... could be of some use with another axis or two... maybe...
You should take a look around what has already being done. Nothing starts from an infinite small point because only a minimum dimmension makes sens. I was talking about normal printer nozzle dimmensions and some geometry calculations that already exist in graphics. There is also a slicer that prints at a slope angle (look up the teaching tech channel here on youtube). I am talking about the simple approach of the inverse of a 5 axis CNC drill that would work with a 0.4 mm nozzle at a 0.2 mm layer height starting from a sphere that is already there fixed on the A an B axis support. Imagine printing on a lolly pop.
All hail open-source. The fact that people can achieve this in their own workspace is mind-blowing . No more waiting for sponsorships and funding - think it - build it. Incredible.
Thank you! yep! I won't wait for sponsorships or funding but they're happening as I progress anyways, so that's awesome too because I can probably work more on this on the future :)
It's always been like this, just a lot less accessible without the internet
I'm thrilled to follow along with this. The community NEEDS more edge-case/off-the-beaten-track projects like this actually getting documented with more detail than just pointing a webcam at the final product! Thanks for sharing!
I completely agree. I am doing my best in that too by developing a supportless(mostly) non-planar slicer that can work with the low clearence of most printers of around 10°. I can't wait to share it. Will most likely end up doing a devlog blog on it. In the mean time I can't wait to see other projects like this. Or even Chronic Mechatronic's ultea low tech 50$ 3d printer.
this is like the third video where i find a comment from you :D youtube makes me follow you.
Koriwi
@@KilianGosewisch UA-cam knows what we watch A LITTLE TOO WELL
@@U_Geek Sweet babies, I'd better subscribe so I catch your progress. My delta is just itching for some decent nonplanar action!
Idk why, works fine with 3axis tbh
You know what's beautiful about the 3d printing community? It's always evolving and the reason is the "community". Every now and then we see some individual/company (mostly individuals) give back to community by releasing their developments as open source.
That's the goal! I just want to iron out the issues first so others don't struggle as much, and then I'll release the frame as open source. I will be ecstatic if just one other person on the planet builds something I created.
@@engineerunleashed i'm working in 3d assistance and support, i just doing this because i love this world if you release that stay sure then i build it, just for information how did you resolve the "problem" about 3 axis slicer?
It is incredibly interesting to see how 3D-printer hardware continues to be light-years ahead of the software.
Yes, probably because the software will be more difficult. But I'll tackle that somehow (I hope)
@@engineerunleashedI believe autodesk has a plugin for 3D printing in the fifth axis for their milling software.
You can thank autodesk for part of that, they keep pretending stuff, like non-planar slicing, then never using it
This guy is a Serious engineer. It's common for an engineer to know one "art" really well, but to be adept at electrical, mechanical, and software is very impressive. I hope some technology company has been smart enough to hire you. Resume? Point them at this video! I tip my hat to you, sir!
I agree this guy is one hell of a damn good engineer. He deserves to be very successful in his career, just on the basis of what he has done so far. If he can find allies that can help with the software to provide a system and human interface to his 5-axis prototype, it can come into its own as a truly usable tool for so many people. And his place in technology history will be assured.
This is the real future of FDM printers.
5 axis has been popular in the cnc milling world for so long now. It's about time the 3d printing world caught up. Yeah, they will be more expensive for hobbyists, but I'm sure people will be willing to buy them.
@@-Kal- 99.9% of the time its superfluous. a gimmick. theres virtually no advantage for a lot of extra complexity.
printers arent worried about drilling accurate holes at specific angles and depths, they are ADDITIVE.
the complexity of slicing software, of toolpath strategies... tool collision avoidance... of simply deciding which way to slice something...
spend five minutes with even standard 3 axis machines. you are concerned about completely different aspects that are NOT applicable to printing.
have you ever opened EVERY setting on your slicer? fiddled with EVERYTHING? hundreds of different things to alter, and thats before you have even sliced it... now multiply that by 3, 4... how many more options are you suddenly presented with?
the software requirements alone are mind-bending. your average user wants to hit "print", not spend months figuring out a suitable strategy to slice an image so it can print... get enough failures with plain old 2.5d as it is...
the only use i can see for multi axis printing is to make propellers. can make a core with lengthwise strands for tensile strength, then come in and wrap it with an outer skin at right angles to hold it together and smooth it out.
again, write the slicer that will actually DO that... simply adding a few moves to existing code isnt proving anything... you need something that can keep track of what its printed, where its printed, how its printed...
do you specify particular orientations? or let the slicer do it? how do you select elements you want with specific properties? suddenly the need for the information to be part of the file itself is important... and suddenly the cad, the drawing side of things has to change to accomodate the feature as well... integration on so many levels...
and then theres cost.... go get a quote for say, "bobcad"... some 5 axis milling software... try a demo. see how complex it is...
@paradiselost9946 I agree that the slicer will be the most challenging part. I wouldn't want to develop it myself. Post processing gcode is more my speed. I doubt we'll ever see a slicer with 5 axis options equivalent to Fusion 360, let alone the most hard-core CAM.
I guess I envision a simple 5 axis slicer working like this: you start your print on a base plane, the build plate. In your slicer you create planes slicing through your model at whatever angle you need. The printer will print as much as it can in the first orientation then tilt and rotate to print from your sliced workplane. The slicer would need to run a solver to make sure the print is possible with the chosen planes.
For a proof of concept, a Blender script could slice the model with planes, storing the position and orientation of the pieces. The pieces of the model are sliced with a 3 axis slicer, then a third script would put the gcode together, positioning the bed relative to the slicing plane.
If someone sent me a 5 axis printer I'd happily do that much, and I'm some some devs will write a basic slicer eventually.
I think the appeal of 5 axis 3d printing is simply that it's interesting. The 3d printing hobby scene is mostly for fun, as far as I can tell. Maybe it's superfluous to use 5 axis when you could use 3 axis with supports, but people already use 3d printers for problems that could be solved with duct tape. I think people will want 5 axis.
You are reading my mind @-Kal-
That's how I envisioned it but the points @paradiselost9946 mention are totally correct. Lets get the ball rolling! the open source community is amazing, I'm sure someone else in the planet want to spend free time chasing this as myself. I just want to do my bit hoping it's somehow useful for someone other than me to start playing around with the idea...
@@paradiselost9946 you have to remember though, Alot of the complexity in 4, 5 axis, etc is also in regards to tooling. just think about how much ball endmills changes orientations and then you got complete special form cutters. once it's figured out, it's only the nozzle you'd worry about so imo it would be simpler still. of course it seems too difficult for it to be worth it, but id argue thats how alot of things are when they are first developed. End case usefulness is a subject of opinion. Your propeller example is already enough of a reason to keep developing this to me
He's back!
Glad to see people aren't sleeping on how great this is. We're seeing the future of 3D printing being forged in real time.
This isn't going to hit production any time soon due to adhesion issues on large models, but it ABSOLUTELY will one day because the ability to avoid supports is simply that valuable
Possibly the second biggest benefit to your printer is the potential to utilize a *square opening nozzle* since you can overcome the x,y coordinate directionality limitation/compromise of traditional printers that require a circular opening to accommodate the non x,y coordinate movements. I'd love to see what this produces.
Yes this should be explored for the 4th axis. The 5th axis...? Not sure how useful this is in most 3d printing applications.
Because you efforted through the mayhem, boosted innovation, and thus making you a world class local hero for open source, dude, man, brotherrrr!!
I always wanted to open source something! it's so rewarding to read the support comments! Thank you!!
Nice work. I appreciate all the hard work it takes to innovate and create. I know it can feel like an endless list of struggles and not always know where it is going. Your work is here is part of what will change the future of 3d printing. Way to go!
That's true! Thanks for the support!!
A. Electroplate nickel "BB's" with copper for better voltage/current transfer w/o causing resistance (crosman sells copper plated 4.5mm "BB's")
B. See if you can get a firm spring (like a recoil spring from a pistol spring) to apply tension on the bed rotational bearing, you can tighten, then the spring will allow slight flex and maintain good contact
C. Ingenious design!
When I saw the rings for your bed conductivity, I just had to mention this. Take a look at how the power setup/generator cabling works in wind turbines. They do some fancy twisted cabling to enable them to turn the turbine head around as many times as it wants without tangling the wires. It'll be a much more stable connection than trying to use bearing conductivity. Robert Murray-Smith did a video on it a while ago.
Wow this is so interesting! Regarding the layer shifting and microsteps - I might be misunderstanding something, but my imediate instinct is that it's like a cumulating "rounding error", for lack of a better term. Like, when the microsteps are set to a lower value, when the motor wants to move from say position "1.2" to position "1.5", but the low microsteps setting means it's only allow it to move in "0.2" increments, then it can only move to "1.4" or "1.6". Whereas larger microstep number means (if I understand correctly) a higher "resolution", so it can move in say "0.02" increments instead, so it can reach "1.48" or "1.52" which is much closer to where it wants to be. If the difference from where it wants to be to where it actually goes to is large enough, it will cause the shifting you see.
This makes me wonder if you could potentially solve the issue by adjusting gear ratios in certain places, because they might be amplifying those small discrepancies to a point where it becomes a problem. That's just my imediate instinct though, and I might be wildly misunderstanding what microsteps actually mean 😅
El acento argentino es inconfundible jaja. Bien ahí hermano, muy buen proyecto
that is awesome, you solved a problem that commercial 3d printer manufactures cannot solve
Awesome. It really warms my cockles to see how far DIY CNC have come, and how far they can still go from where they are now.
Nice work ! 5 years ago I did add 4-th rotational axis to a Delta printer and make it work with Machinekit - which is more suited for this kind of kinematics and have some build-in support of it. It was a big fun, but unfortunately hardware part - was an easy part, next big roadblock will be G-Code generation for additional axis, currently some slicers just scratching a surface of non-planar printing. If you need some help with Klipper or with hardware - feel free to ping me, will gladly help you to move forward.
Man builds least rigid 5 axis system and makes surprisingly amazing prints out of it
True that!! I am still amazed the plastic worm gears can do this. Honestly, I didn't have much faith considering the poor rigidity, but seems to do "good enough" for me to move to the slicing problem.
great job man! keep pushing! Congratulations!
Great to get an update on the project. And very impressive that you got it printing.
wow what a machine, this gets a subscribe
cant wait to see this on sale as a kit
So happy to see another update. This is beautiful! ❤
Thank you! 😊
Great to see the diy open source community still on the bleeding edge of home 3d printing 👍
Holy crap, this is going to be the next big thing in 3D printing. Moving to 5 axis! This hurts my brain thinking of this, lol. But amazing work!!!!!
Z hop is one thing, but now you need “Swing hop” with the angles lol 😂
Wow that bearing communication component is so sick ❤❤❤ love the hard work
I did not know about your channel until today and I thought about this problem in the past and I have been busy on other things but I took inspirations from CNC machine center where the head moved around and went huh why don't we do that with 3d printer and it comes with some issues of course but I use to work on hydraulics going all the way up 4000 psi at 100 gpm and we used a positive displacement screw pump and I thought about how we could use that same tech to move it all around you could print upside down if you really wanted to but the pump would just be the hot end you would still need a extruder. But it would work you would have to prime it and preheat and get the rest of the gunk out possible have to take it apart to clean it every once in a while but it’s there. The idea is for anyone and I believe it will work ultimately in the right hands with the right mind.
I hope this finds someone else who has way more time then I do in the open source community you guys have been a huge help in problems or helping me fil in gaps of knowledge I have.
I was just wondering how you'd been going with this project, and here comes a brilliant and detailed update! Thanks for sharing your curiosity and challenges with us, it's fascinating and inspiring.
Thanks!! Took a while though, But I'm still enthusiastic about this idea! Next one should come out quicker! :)
What an extremely cool project!
awesome project! thanks so much for sharing it!
Thanks for watching!
Outstanding Project Result. I need to print Model Train Parts and have wanted 5 axis for years. But now I see it working. For small parts it looks perfect. But I would have to build the whole machine, not just modify my CR10S Pro. I was thinking a table top 2 axis component to sit on top of the Y axis Table. Like on a Milling Machine. You approach is different but does achieve the objective. Great effort thank you for sharing. Dennis in Virginia USA
From what I have seen so far (only found your channel 2 weeks ago) this looks like a very promising/inspiring project. Can't wait for more updates & thank you for putting it out there.
My pleasure!
awesome. great work! congrats! looking forward to 5/6 axis coming to the average consumer
This is so epic keep up the good work man!
Incredible! This community surprises me more and more, I hope at some point to carry out projects as advanced as these.
선생님 진도가 너무 빨라요.. 그치만 존경합니다. 당신의 기술이 너무 멋지네요
Awesome, and Great to watch. I love the innovation in the hobbyist commune.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This mimics organic growth...like pumpkin stems.
Amazing hardware!
This is an amazing achievement. I am an experienced builder of 3D printers. Yet this is extremely complicated, so I will never attempt this. The slicer, yes, that is of course still a huge problem to get right. Congratulations on this result.
If you do have problems with your rotary union using stainless steel bearings, i have a design that is used in my industry for our rotating turrets. They transfer 480V to the servo motors that run the turret rotation so its long term robust. I know youre not pushing anything near 480V through those ball bearings so id like to think you wont ever have any problems with pitting or deterioration of them, but if you do happen to notice wear long term, i will gladly share how its done at the industrial level
Thanks a lot!! I've ordered same pieces in copper for now (just in case stainless steal fails), but I can't wait to see if anybody re-designs and improves anything from this!
Amazing work! I would love to see a simple tube print with cross laminated layers to see if this technique can solve the z-axis strength issue.
A sugestion... I see your are using two spurgears and two worm gears to control de round motion of the printed part as it's being printed. I believe you could implement a system of steel cables os even belts attached to the middle of the platarform for the printed part and with an motor at the top of the machine (3D printer). This way you could have less wear and maybe a better mechanical advantage. What I noticed in the video is that each side of the "U" plataform seems to be moving in slighly different speeds or lengths, in other words, the "U" platform seems to disalign as it is moving the printed part. Keep up the great work. Your machine is really cool and interesting.
yes you're right! One of the problems with calibrating this is that I can't really tell if the right and left side of A is at the exact same position. I have something in mind for that. But your idea does make a lot of sense too! I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the comment!
@@engineerunleashed Linear actuators converting to rotary motion might also be an option if backlash in the axis is present
I love the idea of this working . Cant wait to see where it goes!
Measuring and setting Traori pivot point offsets for 5 axis compensation on siemens 840D was always challenging.
Amazing work man this is so awesome. Im really happy you did the run down of the gcode. You definitely explain it in a easy to understand way. Cant wait to see the 5th axis slicer, you really are making some major moves in the hobby brotha and I wish you all the best and hope it comes with not to much head scratching and banging lol
Hahaha! the head scratching/banging is my bread and butter. I thrive on frustration :P
3d printing is still in its early stages. This is the next stage. I built the first RepRap and was amazed. Can’t wait!
When I was a teenager I always wanted to build one but I was broke and couldn't do it. Now it's the time! :)
Remarkable! Well done!
This is incredible. Amazing work, cant wait to see what happens next
Thank you!!
Check out 4th axis quick change machining fixturing. your C axis assembly is similar to some ive seen. It could be a very repeatable option for the C axis and bed
You're back! Awesome 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Excellent Proof of Conept and promising. It's really cool and please keep going.
This is a fantastic. I’m here for this all the way.
Incredible work!!!!
Awesome project! From what I see, it might be better to keep the axis of rotation stationary, and move the interior chassis holding the print bed “up/down”(inward/outward) instead of moving the rotation parts up and down. This will allow you to have a constant axis of rotation throughout the print, rather than adjusting the rotation axis up and down as you change the Z axis.
Excellent work!
Curious: What is the reason for this? What do you wish to achieve with the 4th axis over 4? The demo prints don't tell me about the advantages of the 5th axis, especially since I'm not sure I understand correctly that there is no correction for the z-axis for the tilt axis? Or is the slicing just the next step in the journey to a true 3d-not-2.5d-printer?
Great job 👍 I love your enthusiasm!
One use for 5 axis would be to reduce or eliminate supports. You might be able to get around overhang limits using the extra axis.
with 5 axis CNC mills you usually have some kinematic lookup table to offset the Shift of the Position of the origin point when moving the additional axis.
would guess that effect is what you see on the prints.
OUTSTANDING!
This is just so cool! As soon as i can i try get behind this projekt more!
Amazing work!
While I'm not entirely sure all the uses this thing has, I'm sure plenty can be done with it; hope you continue to be able to make progress 👍
El campeon del mundo imprime en cuantos Axis le de la gana😎😎😎
Jajajajaa! No se si me animo a mas de 5 igual XD
A slip ring for the signal and power on your bed might be worth looking into. Reliability and longevity is higher.
Como andas papá? Otros pensaran que es un ingles malo, pero yo note ese Argentino desde el principio. Proyectazo loco, segui para delante que es realmente impresionante.
Felicitaciones 🟦⬜☀⬜🟦 ---- ⭐⭐⭐
Good luck with it! It’s great!
amazing proyect man!
bro this is amazing !!!!
I love the concept, but just a tip, that nozzle probe cannot stay if you want the printer to go fast. The end of the nozzle being able to move around is not going to be conducive to any kind of good print quality. Even some solution to lock the toolhead would yield significant results. ~someone who's been screwing with printers for way too long
Hope bambu helps you out bringing this to production! Great job man, ty for sharing.
very interesting and promising! While the application of this may be niche, I hope you don't get discouraged by comments on how this is superfluous and overengineered. Yes, it is overengineered for the demos you made, but there is an engineering problem out there that this could be a solution to!
right away, I can see that this has excellent potential at handling overhangs. Many solutions for overhangs exist already, like printing at an angle or printing subassemblies, but this could have the advantages of angled printing in every direction as required, without the need for assembly.
As others have also pointed out, printing a few layers perpendicular to the layers of the whole print, perhaps in the core or on the outside, could provide a huge increase in tensile and torsion strength of the finished piece - I am very curious to see 5-ax strength test prints!
Most of the comments are really positive! I was afraid of the feedback too, but I think most of us understand that this won't be perfect. It's a really difficult problem for a single person to resolve. Some day, something like this will be commercially viable. I think that day is not any time soon, but it will happen and I wanted to do my bit. Thanks for the support!
I loved your project, you have done a great job and I am sure that in the future it can be implemented in some way to improve the quality of 3D prints, but I see a problem that is difficult to solve and that is the limit distance between the base and the extruder, since if the piece is very high and separates itself too much from the base laterally, the bending of the piece will cause printing failures.
this is awesome, this machine ask for a creation of a machining program like the ones used for metal, imagine doing a box with horizontal lines and then adding vertical lines outside the box in all its perimeter for example, that would make the parts totally stronger.
Very interesting. I had a similar issue with klipper and an acs606 driver from leadshine, the axis keep on shifting in one direction while printing. I discarded that driver thinking I fried it (I connected it to power on reverse), but the replacement I bought has the same issue. It worked just fine in Linuxcnc. There must be something weird with klipper and the timing of the switching of the dir / pul signals.
Yes I suspect the problem may have to do with that, someone else also suggested I should look into it. So soon I find the problem I'll report back!
I am genuinely impressed: how on planet Earth did you even get here? How long did this take you ?
A bit less than a year, but while working fulltime. Now I've decided to work solely on this for some months, that should speed me up a bit
Keep up the excellent work!!
Thanks, will do!
Hy, i was watching the video and saw the rotating table at 5:40 and i thought you could simplify the contacts by using 2 copper rings on the outside of the part from above that rotates and some pogo pings contacts that contact the rotating piece on the two rings and are fixed to the part from below; and use axial bearings in the middle with a spring and nut at the top
That's a good idea! I have some pogo pins but they are too small, they look like needles. They may damage the boards but I should get some other better suited pogo pins and try that out. Lets see how much does it take to wear this one out first!
Congratulations on the great work my friend! I wish I had the focus to be able to complete projects like this, I always seem to get distracted and never finish my projects.
That's the story of my life! I have dozens of half working projects around my nerd cave. I can tell you that if I wasn't making the videos, probably the cabling would be held by duct tape, for example.
I've got a feeling these'll start showing up on the market at some point soon-ish now. Regardless, this is an awesome project.
Subscribed! I am curious though, why not make the printhead axis pivot instead of the bed, and then just have the bed rotate while staying stationary? This would give you much more surface area to work with, and the weight would not increase as the plastic builds up causing the pivot gears being strained.
It's kind of a trade off... what you propose has some benefits, and some people tried that as well, but my intention was to always print "upwards". If I rotate the printhead I will need to deal with the effects of gravity over the hanging plastic and manage to add some support material beforehand too. Does that make sense? I thought this approach was simpler, but maybe I am missing something. Time will tell!
Im super stoked to see this work. At the same time im super sad as I had this same plan to turn my older Ender 3 pro into a 5 axis printer lol. However, i guess im not really upset cause its just awesome. Good work
Thank you!
You can definitely print-in-place those cable chains.
I may try that, my fingers where not happy about the assembly!
I think you think you could print some interesting propellers on this. You could using 3 axis mode to print the hub of the propeller then rotate the hub 90 degrees and then print the blades radially around the hub. Normally when propellers are 3D printed the blades have pour surface finish due to the support material required for the overhangs.
I've seen some videos in UA-cam of people doing that, but the slicing process seems quite complicated. Seems like the use case we all want to see. Hopefully one day I'll get there!
The extruder looks like a giant dragon and I'm here for it
You are losing steps when switching driver directions. Read the manual for the driver, there is a minimum delay time before you can send step pulses after changing the direction signal. Change your duet stepper timing config to increase that delay.
Will try! Thanks a lot for the tip!!
Great update. Keep it up!
Thanks, will do!
I swear man I've been thinking about an idea like this for years I am so glad someone finally was able to pull this idea from the Aether and make it a reality. I know it is a shit ton of work and you've done so well congratulations you should be really proud of yourself. Now let a manufacturer license it and start pumping them out because I want one. Do you think maybe there is going to be a Kickstarter for this? What are your plans for the future for this printer/design?
Once I iron out some aspects I will open source the STL files so anybody can build one. Please build one then! I would be so happy to see other people improving on top of my designs!!
for the rotation azis you want to use a slip ring. pair it with a bearing.
8:10 I'm glad my comment helped! Yay!
I am sorry I didn't screenshot it in the video! Thanks for the tip!!
@@engineerunleashed No worries -- *I* knew and that's enough
Now that FDM 3-axis printers are using some of the finest extrusion nozzles possible and printing in-place rotary hinges this is the sensible next step, to eliminate the need for supports and allow aligning the layers along the structure. With startup funding I have no doubt you could end up designing for your own company, all the patents have expired for 5-axis metal machining.
Increible trabajo Mariano! me encanto tu proyecto...
Creo que esto, sumado a la Inteligencia Artificial puede realmente darle el proximo futuro a la Impresion 3D.
Slicers con IA que mapeen superficies y logren conseguir los mejores caminos para imprimir segun la pieza, dandole al usuario la eleccion si quiere velocidad, mejores resultados, imprimir sin soportes...
El proximo paso seria mejorar la conexion con los motores que terminan poniendo ruido en las piezas impresas. Y en 2-5 años tenemos impresoras capaces de emular cualquier pieza con gran detalle y bajo costo
Have you checked that the step signal polarity is the same on your controller and stepper driver? It will work fine if your controller sends active high and the step driver expects active low, but the first step after a direction change will be wrong. And the resulting error would be far more pronounced with fewer microsteps. Although it's unlikely to cause such a consistent layer shift, it's worth a try.
You might want to check the pulse duration, too. The direction signal could be to quick to consistently "catch" the step signal.
Wow! you may have just hit the nail in the head! that makes sense!!
I will definitely look into that. Thanks a lot for the tip!!
You need to write a RTCP function that calculates where the XYZ points move when rotaries are turned. These are usually matrix calculations using the machine kinematics. This is how a 5-axis milling machine works. In standard G-code, the function is called G43.4 and with vectors it’s G43.5. Then you could use a standard slicer and manually add those angles, the part shape should stay the same.
I will look into that! thanks for the tip!
Awesome work!
I think that for a slicer, you actually need a kind of spherical tomography.
Like a bounding sphere that is made of layer height peels.
To achieve this you can start from the center of the object, the smallest sphere that fits into your object and intersect each point with the next bounding sphere to find the coordinates to go to.
it would depend entirely on the object... a strategy for each type has to be selected...
considering the number of options in standard slicers, and considering the complexity of even 3 axis CNC machining in comparison to printing... and in some ways, machining is easy. all you gotta worry about is not running into things!
this has no use other than VERY select items that are better being made other ways anyway... i keep on thinking of propellers...
so, you have a slicer that scales the image down in layer depths... specifiy the internal core or layer is lengthwise down each blade... can be printed as "vase mode" as well, yet still be solid! then chase it up with a layer or two of skin at right angles to hold it together...
other objects... i can only see the same deal as multi materials... has to be specified in the object file itself, that there are separate entities......
Yes I imagine one good day someone will have the reason to develop a slicer with many strategies. Something similar to the many manufacture capabilities of the CAM software like Fusion.
Let's agree this is probably years away from "useful", nothing better than the simplicity of current FDM printers and the current slicers. At least at hobbyist level....
This is more for fun than for usefulness though.
@@paradiselost9946 I was thinking about printing each peel from the inside out. It's actually the same thing you do with a lathe on cylindrical movement only this is inverted and a spherical movement. Any kind of object is possible having only the contact space as a limitation.
This kind of print is already done by robot arms that weld.
The calculation is actually not so complicated. The intersections of each projected peel with the actual object can be calculated with wolfram matematica for example.
@@CorneliuTicu dont get me wrong, i saw the startegy straight away. a dodecahedron, simple... but even then, so many strategies to take!
bed surface... cant start at an infinite point, need some area... thats a limitation. would be nice to print on a pinhead, dandelion like.. but you got a stem to deal with.
so you start on a face, build up to the calculated center of a shape, from there, sure...can have say, walls on all vertices, with infill as expanding cuboids or something... end up wrapping it all in some strange hilbert curve...
but does it really serve any goal? does it have an advantage?
the welder doing welds, its faster, cheaper, and more consistent than humans. it has an advantage.
whereas the end use of the average print doesnt justify it, imho. only a few niche limited uses where the ability to use lamination properties would be a bonus.
certain overhangs may benefit, maybe some advantage on support materials...
and thats another one... a bedslinger is a lot of momentum to deal with, gets back to the bed area and starting point issue...
it fascinates me, but i got enough frustration with my own machines!
i tell you what though... welding... as a METAL printer...
who did that? cranktown city? threw a mig welder on his printer?
yeah... could be of some use with another axis or two... maybe...
You should take a look around what has already being done. Nothing starts from an infinite small point because only a minimum dimmension makes sens. I was talking about normal printer nozzle dimmensions and some geometry calculations that already exist in graphics. There is also a slicer that prints at a slope angle (look up the teaching tech channel here on youtube). I am talking about the simple approach of the inverse of a 5 axis CNC drill that would work with a 0.4 mm nozzle at a 0.2 mm layer height starting from a sphere that is already there fixed on the A an B axis support. Imagine printing on a lolly pop.
What about slicers? How many of it supports this kinematic?
Man, I'm hoping this is the next step in the 3d fdm printer evolution.
For the a axis, would it help to self calibrate before each print by moving to each extreme and then center. It looked as if they become out of sync.
That's true, I will try to do that as the next iteration!
de una guachin. tremendo esto!!👏👏
Muchas gracias!!
Bro, have u ever considered to use a slip ring? For the temperature sensor???