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Kwaku said in his testimony that he was raised in a liberal household and was a Methodist for less than a year until some beautiful Mormon girls invited him to LDS church where he “felt in his heart” that they had better answers for the afterlife concerning gays and Muslims and Hell. Of course that answer felt great to his human nature! He literally had no understanding of the Bible or Protestant theology and was suckered away by chicks that gave him attention 🤦🏻♂️ OOF
@@heftymagic4814 I have a question that needs a straight answer. Does the real Jesus create the Holocaust for our own good? Or does he give humans the free will to choose what they want to create and leave that choice purely up to us?
Kwaku strikes me as disingenuous. He'll ask a question in hopes of scoring some kind of point then quickly scurry onto something else when its being answered. Because hes not interested in the answer, he just wants to find some angle of attack.
That's his claim for why he wanted to start a YT channel. He thought LDS needed more people on his side to attack better so he took on the responsibility to attack on "better" angles to defend their beliefs.
I doubt it would have made a difference, from what I can tell there's only Christians, Mormons, New Atheists, and Oneness heretics watching this. All of which aren't likely to have been moved by a last ditch effort to raise emotional bias against the opposition and drown them out with basically a "we aren't like them" appeal.
deadeye851 I understand your point, but for the Mormon representative to "bear his testimony" was wrong and disrespectful. He used faulty appeals, racism and then wanted to proselytize people?! The Mormon worldview is hypocritical and heretical! James 1:2-8 NASB Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, [3] knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. [4] And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. [5] But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. [6] But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. [7] For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, [8] being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
I know it's been 2 years since thus all happened, but I'd love to see a follow-up on this guy and see if anything has changed. Much love brothers and sister. God bless 🙌🙏❤
Still Mormon and also a covid denier who organized events of hundreds of people that made people sick and got people seriously hurt during the event itself.
I watched the entire debate! Kwaku could do nothing but appeal to his own confidence level and make dogmatic empty authority claims. He did so much interrupting that Jeff and Dr. Whites points could hardly have room to be completed. God bless you brothers at Apologia for standing for the truth of Christ and confronting the works and doctrines of darkness! Soli Deo Gloria 🙌🏻
I am no mormon, but the kid did a great job. It was two on one. Two highly educated seasoned veterans versus one young mormon. He did really well putting them both on the defensive about predestination. Predestination needs to be called out for the folly that it is.
@ John 3:36 Sir, Whether or not you agree with Calvinism is a separate issue. I won’t dispute that with you. But, I have to say that you are wrong that Kwaku did a good job. I’ve watched debates for over 15 years on a vast range of topics. And have studied apologetics for over 20 years. When a person does good, I have no problem saying so (even if they are an atheist) debating against my own faith as a Christian. The debate with this Mormon fellow did not go well for him. The only thing he had going for him was: 1. Courage (in the first place) to fly out and go on the show with two very scholarly and educated Christian apologists And, 2. A high level of energy and feistiness But let’s not mistake those two things with what it means to actually have: •good arguments •good rebuttals •a good grasp on Christian theology (especially the aspects of it you are debating) •proper exegesis of cited scriptures The way this kid conducted himself was very poor. And anyone who takes the time to closely and honestly observe will see that!
Thank you for the kind reply. I see where you are coming from. Since you enjoy debates, perhaps you will enjoy an analysis of this debate: ua-cam.com/video/5ERacFJF87U/v-deo.html
What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?" Answer: Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.” Many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically. The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved. The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23), and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are receiving what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some. If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to choose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice-all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html
I know it's been 2 years but, hopefully this will help as well - Thinking of God as 3 demenional. Also, that he is God, how can we, as humans, even think to know him? Why wouldn't he be so amazing as a Holy Trinity God? It's so cool & something so amazing to think through. God Bless Brother 🙏🏼
I am so thankful that this follow up video was made. I was so upset after listening to that debate. This gives it a bit of closure that I personally was seeking, of course the fight continues for our Lord. I have been watching and listening for about 3 years now, thank you for your time!
In the future there should be a dedicated moderator inducing a more formal debate setting. James and Jeff did great trying to explain Kwaku's fallacies but there was so much interruption that a lot of it got lost in translation. This would probably avoid Kwaku's crazy derailment at the end when he realized he wasn't equipped to defend Mormonism shifting the entire debate topic to Calvinism.
I think to at least some degree it is instructive to note the crazy Calvinists attacking the Church of Jesus Christ really don't offer anything either intellectually fulfilling or real. Kwaku is simply making the point of either how they are being intellectually dishonest by arguing positions which inherently require the creatures to possess freewill, or they don't understand the implications of their position. Either way, they offer nothing in the way of salvation.
I was able to listen to this semi and weird debate and as someone looking into religion, I did not like the Apologia gumbo. It was terribly moderated and edited and lacked, what christians call, gospel centered discussion. As I have looked into many religions, the one that resonates best with me and my inward thoughts was not the mormons or the Apologia's point of view, but it is a religion called The Church of Jesus Christ of the latter day saints. I believe this is what it is called. Just my thoughts as I have looked at Christian and non Christian beliefs.
@@dtanner2975 I encourage you to watch James whites formal debates on the Trinity with Muslim opponents. I went through the same thing around 5 years ago. I wouldn't base anything on this debate as it was unfocused.
@@dtanner2975 The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is essentially the same thing as the mormon church. You may feel a pull toward them, as many people do. However, this does NOT indicate truth. Their theology is extremely "creature" focused, rather than "Creator" focused. The enemy (Satan) appears as an angel of light and deceives many with what looks like or feels like truth, but is a lie. He will bait with what seems like truth, or even (partial) truth itself. It is alot more appealing to most people to reject what the Bible says about salvation. Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, He is the ONLY way of salvation. His sacrifice atoned for our sins, bridged the gap that separated man from God, and made fellowship possible again. Salvation is found in Jesus alone, written in the Bible alone, NOT what Joseph Smith says, or any other person who attempts to add to, change or supplement the Bible, claiming their revelation to be inspired by God. I encourage you as well to look at other debates, and also other Apologia videos as they are much better at explaining/teaching Christian doctrine than this debate was. Justin Peters, Carter Conlon, and Todd Friel also are solid from which to learn doctrine as well. Prayers for you that the true God (which I belive is the God of the Bible) leads you to the Truth you are seeking 🙂
First of all, Jeff was "in charge" but he was not the moderator...second, Dr.white and Pastor Jeff the mighty ninja tried their hardest to evangelize kwaku with scripture? In context? Original Hebrew and Greek context....they could've went even farther into the grammatical issues that kwaku would need to deal with having the position he has...and 3rd, the editing?...why in the world is that important to the topic at hand here?...thats irrelevant...BTW I think the editing was great...another better than what you're probably doing 😅 so stop running your mouth about things u don't know or understand, please and thank you
To Share The Gospel if you want to study history it would be best to study something that you find in the history section of the library, not the mythology section. Because it obviously is NOT history. It is stories. Fairy tales.
Great channel! Say have you folks at Apologia Church considered pasting links to specific points in your radio program? It’s long, which is fine, but sometimes folks don’t have the time to listen all at once. Little blue time stamped links might make the program more accessible in this busy life schedule we all seem engulfed in. God bless to you Jeff and all the other wonderful people at Apologia Church! I heard a wonderful endorsement of you Jeff from, ‘It’s Me Jesse.’ A lovely Christian sister’s UA-cam channel. She is as equally dedicated as you all are to refuting Mormonism, sharing the Gospel, and rescuing people out of Mormonism.
That dude was a classic case of a fool who thinks he knows everything but knows nothing and does not put in the hours studying his beliefs but expects everyone else to listen to him and only him
Klarity*11, they expect their priesthood to be respected within their church. If anything, they expected their priesthood to be disrespected from outside their church, and here you are.
@@PatristicArcana why is it when someone calls out the facts in a particular religion, you take it as being disrespectful. No names were called, nothing taken out of context. Just pure facts. That wasn't even directed towards you but I'd give a polite nudge for you to take constructive criticism better
Watched the entire debate and this response. As a Christian who is passionate about apologetics, I cannot tell you how helpful this whole debate and response are to those wanting to strengthen their faith in the nature of God. Christians who wish to understand the trinity better, WATCH this and the preceding debate. Christians who understand the trinity but wish to be reminded why it is so important to define it accurately and correctly? WATCH this and the preceding debate. I cannot stop ranting how important discussions and corrections like this are Thank you Apologia Studios for defending the faith and being Gods instrument for guiding fellow believers to the truth of God.
Apologia Church... I love you guys. I respect you. I love what you do. I learn from you. Earlier in this podcast, I heard how you dealt with the young man’s issues regarding the Methodist Church. I am in the Methodist Church and I attend Church Camp. Those things he’s pointed out-I heard and seen. However, I’m a Christian before any denomination. I trust in Christ to work hard through my time there to give the Youth deep doctrinal truths. Now, I know you guys are Baptists. Reform Baptists-Calvinists. Lol I get it mixed up (I mean that in love). I don’t think it wise to group everyone in the Methodist Church in that category. I will stay Methodist. And you will stay Baptist. One day I would love to come right alongside you guys and talk with unbelievers, Mormons, etc. I’m practicing that now. But I don’t agree with or lean towards all those things Methodist do and the deepest theological ideals as I don’t lean fully towards Baptist/Calvinist ideals. Long story short, you have some out here (who just happen to be Baptist or Methodist) in the faith, fighting sin, the world’s ideals, and preaching the good news. So please don’t let it slip by but show love to the ones that are still preaching and showing love, even if the Methodist may minimally differ from you. With that said, I will still watch, support financially, and love you guys because you are doing a GREAT thing.
Sadly, Jeremiah Phillips, Methodists are as apostate and heretical as the Metropolitan chvrch in San Francisco. All Rainbow and no Gospel. Most not all of course.
The thing is people and churches that identify as Methodist (or any denomination) do so because they share similar views to the Methodist denomination. The issue is the Methodist denomination has bad theology, and bad theology hurts people and obscures the truth of God, especially if it has a liberal bent (theologically liberal, not a reference to politics). If you can't bristle up and have issues with a denomination in the sense you describe, then you lose the ability to point out categorical issues that must be addressed. The exception doesn't prove the rule, and if someone continues identifying with a denomination, then it is absolutely fair to judge their views in a manner that assumes it to fall in line with the denomination they fall under. Especially if they do not separate themselves from that denomination in any way aside from merely claiming that not all people are uniform.
Post-modernism has further corrupted Kwaku's mind (a phenomenon rife in millenial crowds) - ie. words are meaningless and up to an infinite variety of interpretations based on feelings and relativist/subjective machinations.
But it is super frustrating when those like Kwaku get a hold of your son like they have done to mine. Suspension of reason and common sense... There is somehow something super appealing in the "modern" LDS to that age 18-20 year old age group. While I agree they prey of theologically impaired, our son was baptized and confirmed Christian (with 3 others siblings doing the same) and even then was susceptible. Kwaku and others like him are soul killers. The dude just likes to hear himself talk.
Jeff, in your response part 2, please include and respond to some of their comments in the 3 Mormons episode of the Cross. It could help represent their utter ignorance of the atonement/ grace.
This is so good guys, and one Shelogion (love you Joy, and Summer lol!!). Praise God for this opportunity for y'all to do this publicly! These are great conversations and faith building. I'll continue to pray for you all and share. God bless!
And I spelled that totally wrong lol. Sheologians! Love the podcast. Y'all say and explain biblical truths every week and I don't miss an episode. Praise God for working through you ladies!
John Yelland how can you have a poor understanding of a fictional or made up concept. The trinity is a human construct due to their inability to understand how a godhead of three can be one in mind and purpose but separate beings. Scripture backs up that explanation but not a single scripture backs up God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit being the same being. Period.
See, you yourself are showing your poor understanding of not only the Holy Trinity but of Church history. Just ask yourself honestly, why would a council need to be held to determine once and for all whether Christ was an exalted creation of God or God Himself? This would only need to be debated if there was a lot of scriptural support for both, or at least seemingly so. The Council of Nicaea decided that God and Christ were indeed of the same substance, and that the subordinationist heresy of Arianism was unscriptural. The Church came to this decision under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, my friend. The scriptures are chalked FULL of support for Christ's deity, as well as that of the Holy Spirit. I definitely recommend you do some more research on this topic :)
I love Apologia Radio. I listen as often as I can and have benefitted so much. Apologia has inspired me to stay close to the scriptures and has helped me to grasp the Trinity more clearly. Apologia has inspired me to hold the Bible as the one source of truth at all costs. Apologia has taught me the worth of presuppositional Christian thought. Great response to the debate. Thank you for your ministry. I have a few comments that I hope you will take to heart. I hope you will avoid making loose comments on the last three hundred years of church history from now on. In the last few weeks, two members of the panel have made ridiculous claims about movements and figures from the two Great Awakenings. These comments were quick but inaccurate. Be sure to use the same acumen when speaking of history as you seek to use when opening the scriptures. In this episode, one claimed that Methodism was born in the mid-1800s in a New York area where many cults were born. This was spoken as a strike on the classical Methodist movement (apparently). This is a great and embarrassing error. Methodism was born in the 1700s at Oxford among John Wesley, Charles Wesley, George Whitefield, and others. Only later did John Wesley become the respected leader of "the People Called Methodists." The modern Methodist movement is not even a shadow of what it was in their day. At the end of his life, renowned Calvinistic evangelist George Whitefield said the following of the Methodist movement: "My brother Wesley acted wisely. The souls that were awakened under his ministry he joined in Class, and thus preserved the fruit of his labor. This I neglected, and my people are a rope of sand." In Whitefield's own estimation, Wesley's converts had grown in grace while his own had backslidden. (Yes, I mean God's converts through Wesley/Whitefield, don't worry). A large percentage of converts in the 1700s and 1800s were born again under Methodism's simple, practical gospel preaching and organized discipleship efforts. Even Charles Spurgeon came to faith through the influence of a simple Methodist preacher. After sitting many years under complex preaching, the simple Methodist gave an elementary call to "look to Christ," and Spurgeon was born from above. Spurgeon later said of John Wesley: "Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley." Please remember that most people do not do their own research. If you make false and negative claims about church history, the people will believe you. When they hear the name "John Wesley," they will think, 1. "Apologia inferred that Methodism sprang from an area of strong cult activity. 2. John Wesley was recognized as the leader of the Methodist movement. 3. Therefore, John Wesley must not have been a faithful Christian, evangelist, and preacher, but a sort of religious fanatic that led an ungodly movement." You know it's true -- especially for cage-stage Calvinists who tend to cling to whatever criticism they can find. Whenever someone says, "John Wesley said...", they will automatically shut their ears. Let's be honest. Be careful. You have a large audience. You can easily spread misinformation and heap dishonor upon men and movements which God Himself has honored. It would be unfortunate if you spread misinformation while rebuking 3 Mormons for doing the same (regarding the Trinity etc). It would be TRAGIC if you did this regarding some of the greatest moves and men of God in history. By all means, engage historic movements, preachers, their teachings, and the (often radically different) teachings of their progeny. But do so clearly and in a way that will help others to see both their strengths and weaknesses. Please continue to fight historic heresies, engage the cults, preach the gospel, and labor to "end abortion now!" But be careful to use perfect acumen when talking about recent Church history. You guys are awesome. I'm thankful for God's ministry through you. Keep using your voice. God bless you.
I watched the original debate and the whole time I was thinking ....hmmm dr white and pastor Jeff are holding back. Only in a way to be gracious to kwaku. They I believe were trying to nudge him to see his own foolishness and inconsistency while kwaku was spiraling out of control handing out last ditch efforts like polytheistic Jews and ...,something about math. I high five dr white and durbin for their restraint. God has really used these two men who have really taught me a lot about the Bible and reformed theology. It wasn't to many years ago that I was a Christian who if asked about the trinity could have really blown it. My heart goes out to the mormons. I live in Utah so I know many well. My prayer is that they find rest and peace in the truth. Seeing mormons live out their faith is like watching someone try to walk across hot sand. They have to keep hopping around trying not to get burned by the realities of lds doctrine and all the while with a really big smile on their face.
Iindsey Cantrell stop lying to yourself, they were not gracious and could not answer kwakus questions with clarity. They were rattled, frustrated not at being interrupted (because they were doing the same) but at the fact they were being questioned back and had nothing substantial while going around in circles.
Not lying to my self. I have listened to hours and hours of different content of both of these men refuting Mormonism. They know all the skeletons hiding in Mormon doctrine. Trust me they were being generously gracious.
The format of this presentation is that Jeff Durbin does almost all the talking and the other three nod their heads and unitedly agree with everything he’s saying. I get it!
I was a Mormon convert. The Mormons prey of the theologically weak because they don’t have the knowledge to refute Mormonism’s claims. Thankfully I started doing my own research and figured out it was all a big scam. Thank you for what you’re doing.
Really? I converted while I was studying biblical text in college. Had some pretty high standards for converting. Generalized claims about a large group of people are never good. Mormons, just like other denominations, are a part of the Christian fabric whether you agree or not, and they're the most Christian in my opinion.
@cindybin2001 how can you refute the fact that your own church leadership admits that the book of Abraham is a fraud and that Joseph smith could not read or translate Egyptian and that Deuteronomy 13, 18, Mathew 7, mathew 24 all give warnings that Joseph smith fits to a T?
I did the same as well brother, but with Oneness Pentecostalism(UPCI). Calvinism and church history really shook me when I started studying more. I was a youth leader and a missionary beliving the strawman that the Trinity is polytheism. Thank the Lord, He showed us both the truth. Having this backround makes apologetics very enjoyable. Thanks Jeff!
I had a hard time with this debate because no one would let the other answer completely without interrupting them. And that was on both sides. Next debate should have some kind of moderator that permits equal time. That being said, I applaud you for your patience. Keep on defending the gospel while helps equips the rest of us to do the same.
You all at Apologia (Bible?) (Community?) (Grace?) Church and Pre-Born are the greatest abortion ministries extant. I enjoy that so very much Also, thanks Reverend Durbin for taking on Mormonism. Reverend John MacArthur, Junior has said, it's "snatching a branch from the burning."
Your audio team needs some training, have them watch some videos on clipping and setting gain levels as well as compression/limiting on channels. The mic's seem to always be clipping (gain to high = clipping = voice gets distorted). You're using $400 mic's each, but all that money is a waste if the gain isn't set right. A little knowledge goes a long way!
Around 44:45 they discuss how modalism. I agree that modalism is wrong, then they go on to say that we should never use an earthly example to try to explain the tri-unity on God. I have an example that I was given & I want advice as to whether or not I should use it. I heard a minister say that this example is limited in that the difference between God & humans is that he always existed but the analogy is this " In a Family you can have a Husband , a wife & children even though there is more than one person, they make up ONE FAMILY ". since the "i-m" on the word elohim is plural in hebrew it seemed to make pretty good sense when I heard that example.
Kwaku refuses to be wrong....it’s the same defensive behaviour you always get from mormons. They live in a club and just ignore any fact shown to them that contradicts their bizarre beliefs.
I wonder if people realize that humans have three parts. We have a soul, we have a spirit, and we have flesh. So I wonder if that's what God meant when he said he made us in his image.
@@purplesilverlight soul is our personality it’s made up of who we are as a person inside our flesh. Our spirit is eternal. And that leaves our body when we die.
Kwaku am sorry he was so rude and disrespectful and definitely lack the patience and love so dr White and Jeff had the spirit of truth Kwaku wasn't fully prepared.
I heard one of the Latter Day Saints say all the apostles died... According to D&C 7, the apostle John is still alive. So I'm guessing he never read that part of Doctrine and Covenants.
Bringing up the point about the bookshelf. Why do we need outside sources to prove what should be plain in the texts. Wouldnt it be like relying on someone else or something else.
As a former Mormon you would do better to interview me. I know what Mormons need to hear. The way a debate goes is like a sporting event. But with a debate both sides can announce victory. It doesn't accomplish anything. To turn hearts I invite you to reach out to me. Thank you
@Shane Stephen that's really Christian of you.. meanwhile I pray diligently for my family in SLC to be touched by the Lord!! And if anyone knows what they need to hear it's someone like me. I guess you think arguing in circles is doing the Lords' work.. you will know them by their fruits, so run along Rabbi.. Christians don't need you
@Sheep Dog, we all agree God turns the hearts. But that doesn't mean you can just sit idly by acting like you have no calling. You are called to make disciples of all nations. (Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20 ESV) Also: Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. Colossians 3:23-24 ESV So you should do everything with excellence, for the one true and perfect God. If you refuse to discern what forms of evangelism are most effective, you're just as bad as the Westboro Baptists that preach with so much hate. That is not the standard of excellence our Lord calls us to. They would defend their hate with the same thing you said: Only God can turn hearts. Please repent from your idle spirit and your discouragement towards a brother in Christ's willingness to give his testimony to further the kingdom of God.
I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Happy to engage in discussion with you. I don’t believe the trinity is Christian. No I don’t believe trinity and duality are the same. I am a convert from Catholicism and no one has written more about the Trinity than St. Augustine.
Mormonism is interesting to me because of the inconsistency of ancient history. I think it’s pretty conclusive that the Americas were re-discovered and biblical people were indeed traveling back-and-forth well before the time of Columbus and the other great explorers. All through gods providence
He has no doctrinal books from the last 2000 years because if he read them he would be excommunicated. He should read Matthew Henry’s commentary’s to start with. It would blow his mind about how moronic what the Mormon Church taught him about Biblical Theology.
You've got it backwards. Latter-day Saints don't receive excommunication nor any other form of church discipline for reading publications outside of their Church. On the contrary, they promote education on these subjects in general. Perhaps you're thinking of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
PatristicArcana Really? I’d love to challenge Kwaku to read the unapproved bible that Dr. White gave him and pick up a copy of Matthew Henry’s condensed commentaries and make a list of 5 books on Christian Doctrines written by people who are now deceased and walk up to his Bishops high council and say “ I’ve been reading this bible and studying these texts at the advice of a PhD Theologian and known Calvinist, and I’d like you to answer my questions about the gross inconsistencies in LDS doctrine.” He’s in big trouble.
You mean that you'd like to put words into Kwaku's mouth? That's an interesting fantasy, and all, but it doesn't coincide with the reality of the lack of Latter-day Saint restrictions on what their members can read.
@@PatristicArcana This isn't true. Part of my family are Mormons and they will not read anything outside the church publications. They even warned me against it when I tried to get them to read something else. I was told satan puts out material to confuse people. You can read anything and the Holy Spirit will give you discernment. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
@@@theladygunsmith What you're talking about is an isolated instance. What I'm talking about is (1) the official stance of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and (2) the normative practices of members thereof. Again, Latter-day Saints simply aren't restricted by their Church regarding what reading material they have access to.
I've used the example of solid, liquid and vapor water to show categories, but not the Triune God. The 3 phases of water are the same in chemical composition but different in phase. Since Mormons often don't understand categories, this can be useful to show that some things can be the same in one category and different in another category without causing a contradiction. The 3 phases of water is not a good analogue for the Triune God, however. Teaching them about categories helps them to understand that having a God who is 1 in being (1st category: being/essence) and 3 in persons (2nd category: persons) does not cause a logical or mathematical contradiction (as Kwaku attempted to prove).
Daric Not that God is an egg (lol), but I use the egg as illustration for my kids to understand. An egg consists of the shell, the white and the yoke. The yoke is not the white, the white is not the shell, and the shell is not the yoke. But all three are equally the egg. My son still claims the yoke shouldn't be part of the egg. Much like many deny Jesus as part of God. 😂
Destiny Theall except when you crack the egg and throw away the shell, you are *not* throwing away the egg. You are only throwing away the shell of the egg. So, no, the parts of the egg are not all equally the egg.
suggestion. Invite Fr. Kallistos Ware for a chat. The goal is one holy Catholic and apostolic church. If the goal is eventually for mankind to come back together into Christ's Church, then it is time to look to the original Church and hash out the differences to bring us all back to His Church. Orthodoxy is the root, Christianity is the whole tree. God is the Creator of that tree.
inTruthbyGrace all of them have fractured intellectual integrity. None of them think logically from the absolute beginning. Starting where we all have no knowledge of god and then examine the evidence to see if it points to a god. Which it absolutely does not!
I found it interesting that he accused our brothers of using a European interpretation (don’t remember the EXACT wording) but those Europeans interpreters if you want to call them that based themselves on historic interpretation which was explicitly middle eastern/African/near eastern
Jeff and team, here's the Talmage exegesis of Psalm 82:6 that you reference in passing in this video: “Divinely Appointed Judges Called 'Gods.' - In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Ex. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin darkened minds.” -- James Talmage, "Jesus the Christ", p. 501; www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-28?lang=eng
Here's some additional exegesis: “'God has taken His place in the council of the gods, and in the midst of the gods He holds judgment.' [Psalms 82:1] He is speaking of the Father and the Son, and of those who received the filial adoption [cf. Romans 8:15] . . . . Of what gods [is He God]? Of those of whom He said, I have said, ‘You are gods, sons of the Most High.’ [Psalms 82:6] Of those, namely, who have received the grace of filial adoption” (Irenaeus, 'Against the Heresies' 3:6:1, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 64:39) “it will be impossible to admit the existence of another god, since no one is permitted to possess anything of God. ‘In that case,’ you say, ‘we do not possess anything of God either.’ On the contrary, we do possess something of Him, and we shall do so, but by receiving it from Himself, not from ourselves. For we shall even be gods, if we deserve to be those of whom He pronounced: 'I have said Ye are gods,' [Psalms 82:6] and, 'God stood in the congregation of gods,' [Psalms 82:1] but by His grace, not by a property of our own, since it is He alone who can make gods.” (Tertullian, ca. 202, 'Treatise Against Hermogenes' 5:3-4, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 24:33)
Thanks for pointing that out. I took comment down because I don't want to misrepresent our Holy God in any way. I do need to rework that description. Have a good day and God bless you in Jesus Name.
Jeff, I think it's important to note that not only did you not get a chance to discuss Psalm 82 (which I was disappointed about) but if I recall correctly, Kwaku was one breath from starting to read Psalm 82 and he suddenly started a rabbit hole off into another subject. He never even read the psalm that he was so confident supported his view!
So let's start with the last video....My question is, why was Kwaku picked to represent the LDS (no offense to Kwaku)? You have on one hand, "Dr" White (quotes are because I question all people with degrees from unaccredited universities. I understand why they refuse to accept accreditation, but without a universally accepted base line standard, we don't know what those degrees actually mean) who apparently has attended various schools and written several books. Now you pair him with some kid, and let's make no mistake about it....he is a kid, who either is a recent grad of BYU or still a student. Seems a bit of a well, set up, if you will. An author/"Dr" vs a kid with a wacky UA-cam channel that tries mostly to explain Mormon culture. I don't think it would have been that difficult to pull up any of the BYU professor rosters and found someone of the LDS faith willing to talk. A small search would have produced many with their own PhD degrees from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc, etc who may have been a little more interesting to talk with.
Jesse....I'm not arguing that he hasn't put in a lot of work. All work doesn't necessarily mean productive work. Many theological universities are not accredited due to the fact these universities don't want to be subjected to the rules or intrusiveness of the accreditation boards. I get it. However, that makes me also wonder how one actually can tell what is a "valid" degree from such a school when the curriculum of one theological university may be NOTHING like the one across the street. If no one can agree or guarantee what even the base line is of that degree, how can such a degree be really respected?
And who judges that amount of work? Does the quality of work have anything do with the equation, or just sear number of classes or papers written are the key? If the theological university across the street requires X amount more course work towards a degree, does that invalidate another theological universities particular degree program? No set standard produces no set results.
OK....So the title in front of his name is meaningless, and we should only judge someone by their works. I can see that. There are colleges that if you send them in a check, you get a degree. There are many uneducated very smart people out there who have valid insight and knowledge, so you do have a point. So my next question is, why are so many people in this comment section rushing to throw that title in front of his name if we aren't to judge him by that title but his works?
Well, he's done work. What work he has done we don't know. He may be knowledgeable in the subject of theology, but how knowledgeable compared to another theological university grad with a similar or lesser degree, I don't know. Degrees can be handed out like tic-tacs. That is why an accreditation system was set up in universities. A base line is established and expected from all universities participating in said system. If one sets up a system that refuses to participate in that accreditation system or another such system agreed upon by a specialty school (theology, for example), how do we know what a degree bestowed upon someone means? How do we know that White isn't just naturally a smart guy who did his own research, gained noting in research skills or knowledge from his university experience and just accepted the title? I can go online right now and buy a Phd and insist everyone call me dr. My ability to write books would not be a factor in that online purchase. Maybe this is why White has said he is in the process of getting a degree from a South African university that is accredited.
At 1John1:1 the word is spoken of as existing from 'apo' the beginning. Clearly proving that the word has a beginning. Proverbs8:22-30 refers to the beginning of the logos (logic) here called wisdom.
I saw the debate, and it was like the blind leading the blind. Neither one could see their own flaws in logic but recognized some of the flaws in each other's logic.
Yes, I haven’t not seen a lot of debates with Jehovah’s Witnesses with Dr James Whites in a long time. I have friends that are in this cult and it just as frustrating to have a dialogue with them just as I seat here watching the content with the Mormons. What you think Jeff could we walk through the cults together to get a better understanding?
I would recommend to you Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin. I'm currently reading it right now, and Martin spends a significant amount of the first half of the book on the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Chris Jimenez - Yes, JW's and Mormons are twins religions!!...Check out this MUST SEE drop the mic 🎤 video that proves this point!! ua-cam.com/video/C3Lk8H3--Ag/v-deo.html
2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; Luke 8:13 - They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
I'm a former Mormon. I listened to this when I was falling asleep. I''ll admit that I didn't fully get the trinity and what's actually right or wrong, so I have to look it up, as my former religion certainly didn't follow what the Bible say.
I am a Mormon, and I’ve watched hours and hours of your material. I’ve also looked up everything you say that attempts to bash or dismantle the LDS church. And every single time I do any research and read the entirety of scriptures in the Bible and go to the source places for which you point and read them in context… You Have still not swayed me in anyway to discount the truth of LDS doctrine. I know My voice here is a needle in a haystack as your support comes almost solely from your anti-Mormon followers, so hopefully I don’t cause too much commotion here. I personally feel that the people that represent our church whether it be at the temple grounds or in your every day interviews. Even your interview with The gentleman from 3 Mormons. He does an OK job but of course like many make some grammatical errors or incorrect comments about our believes. It happens. Anyway I just want to say one thing that I find is an easy telltale sign that what you preach Is false is that you love to cherry pick verses from the Bible only to read amounts that suit your agenda. Here is a very potent example. At about the one 1:01:00 Area in your video here you and your friends decide to talk a lot about John 10 in Psalms 82. In John 10 Jesus is surrounded by a group of zealots who are giving him a hard time about his preaching in regards to the parable about us being sheep and he being the good shepherd. He tells them that he is one with heavenly father and the accuse him of calling himself God. He simply tells them after hearing this ”Why are you so shocked that I refer to myself as being God, after all you’ve already written in your law that I’ve said you are gods.” Jesus never said that what was written was false!! Just because these are zealots and unjust preachers does not mean that everything that was written is incorrect. It is very possible that that very point, That we are children of God, is true. In fact there are countless places in the Bible where it specifically says we are children of God including Psalms 82. So back to my point of how I feel you miss read the Scriptures or keep out of the reading words that dont suit your agenda. After you begin reading Psalms 82 you stop right before the most poignant and important verse that gives the most clarification. You dance around verse six and read it in a very negative tone voice, Even remove the word “children” and replace it with “son”. What gives you the right to interpret verse six as a negative connotation, Or to imply God is being sarcastic? If God intended verse six to be a negative connotation he would’ve instead been more clear and said I never said you were gods, but instead what he’s really saying is, “sure, I said you were gods, (because it’s true), that doesn’t mean you have the right to judge unjustly“ it should really read that way (And in a much more neutral tone voice) 6. I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Ironic Jeff would that part In such a negative tone, infusing his agenda. God saying yes I said you are gods, even the children of God… But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. I feel your interpretation is a major stretch to prevent this clear truth. So the fact that you would read those verses like that says a lot about your agenda in my opinion. Sure we have different interpretations of those scriptures but you have no right to say mine is wrong as it makes just as much sense as yours. It really makes more actually!
These men know the Bible thoroughly, plus its cultural and historical background. They have studied it in its original languages. They are well grounded in theology. And they DO make a lot more sense than you.
Klarity*11, Sorry, but I support my statement. And their obviously wrong? Just because a renown apologist says something doesn’t make it true, they’ve just been rooted in there inaccuracies for many years.
Since I am not a Calvinist, I only watch Apologia videos when they are about Mormon issues. They have a huge knowledge of the Bible, but I believe strongly that their Calvinistic interpretation is wrong. I am interested in their Biblical understanding of why Mormonism is wrong.
Clarity*11, I can relate to you in some degree. I too only watch Apologia videos so I can learn why they feel the Mormon Church is wrong. Only I do it because I know I can counter their points with confidence, and hopefully leave a comment or two preventing the unprepared LDS member who is unsure about our Cannon, or our church history, and prevent them from being lead away. And your right Calvinists are way off the mark... even if they had a correct interpretation of it. If your really interested in some counter play, and not just absorbing their prospective... when your viewing Apologia videos, do a quick search for key word "EastBlood" in the Comments and share your thoughts. Whats your biggest hangup with LDS doctrin?
EastBlood - And just because a false prophet such as Joseph Smith says something does not make it true. How many failed prophecies did Joe have again? Even one disqualified him and thus how can you trust anything he has put forth? Until you can reconcile Joseph Smith being a false prophet the conversation cannot go any further.
NoFearX, that's considered Modalism (one god/3 modes); old-school heresy. Scripture clearly discloses God as the One infinite eternal Being consisting of three distinct persons; The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
@@UbWanKinoby66 I understand... I was simply being sarcastic in a way, because it's odd how people can question how he can be all three, and it was a way that I've heard it explained when I was younger meaning if any of us can be many things like I had said why is it so hard for people to understand that he is the father Son and Holy Spirit
+NoFearX The only main issue with your analogy (while I understand your main point) is that you would take up those roles/modes sequentially - you would not be a father at age 10 (for example) but later in your life. You may have a brother who is born several years later. The three Persons in the Being of God I do see as three roles God uses to engage with His creation (eg. a Bridge/Mediator and a Helper), however, they are co-equal and co-eternal. Perhaps some will see my use of "different roles" as 'modalism,' and thus heresy. But just like light is seen as a wave and as particles, does not change the source of the wave/particle - the light has one essence and form, described in two ways that are equally valid. Wrapping one's head around this with a neat, nice analogy (within our limited minds) can be problematic. If someone has an even better analogy to help in Trinitarian apologetics, I'm all ears.
Calvinism is the most wicked, vile, and detestable and unloving man made doctrine that is has been and is being taught. To quote Dave Hunt, "what love is this?" and we can also ask, "Is God all loving?" According to Calvinism, there are two kinds of calls (general and effectual), and two kinds of sinners (the predestined ones for heaven, the reprobates that are predestined to hell) and two kinds of elect. So, let's see, God will waste His time judging the lost for their works and not having their name in the book of life (REV. 20), all because He did not choose them and because of divine determinism? That is utter and complete non sensensical and exegetically untenable. It destroys the character and love of God. Why would He take the time to judge the lost reprobates and at the same time, hold them accountable for something that had no choice in choosing? Why does God commend so many in Scripture for choosing Him and condemn so many for not choosing Him, if the Calvinist systematic is true???
There were some very good things about going to Christian youth camp during the summer the two times that I went. Good food and some fun sports activities, but I didn't learn much about Christ or God while I was there. First time I got in a fight because another boy thought it was funny to pee on my sleeping bag, and the second time one of the youth leaders was trying to be a bit more than friendly with my sister. We walked 12 miles to the bus station and got a ride home. It was a very long time before I thought about church or the bible after those two experiences.
Calvinism also changes who Christ/God is. Christ said, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" He did not say whosoever is elected, thus Calvinist basically are calling Christ a liar. There is not an account in Genesis where man is cursed with the total inability to come to God. Again, according to Calvinists, they are saying God was not completely honest when describing the curses men would now endure. I could go on and on, will not, but will make the last point. God commands that all men repent, Acts 17:30. Why would God give us a commandment that could not be fulfilled? If God threatens punishment, it implies the ability to comply and an ability to not comply. Thus the argument that God did give us free will to choose. By the way, why does the Apologia Church website not mention they are Calvinists?
When Jesus was suffering during the crucifiction he called out to the father to take away his suffering, IF they are one being in the same he could have stopped his own suffering but that is not what happened. So as far as Im concerned Kwaku is right.
Instead of double teaming basically a Mormon teenager. Why don’t you debate a latter day saint who holds the same degree of education as you do. I thought your debate was very unfair.
JOD vol 11 pg 269. “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.” Brigham
John8:50KJV" And I seek not mine own glory,there is one that seeketh and judgeth." Either Jesus went about attempting to persuade his fellow Jews that he was the God of Israel or he did not seek his own glory the both things could not be simultaneously true I choose to take my Lord at his word.
Psalms83:18KKB"That men may know that thou,whose name ALONE is JEHOVAH,art the MOST HIGH over all the earth." Note please there is but one named JEHOVAH. Note also that this one is the MOST HIGH. Therefore if your God is associated with two equals he is not JEHOVAH.
@@andreatimmers1720 just got the notis for this thread. I just mean his composure doesn't change even when he's obviously wrong, had he more truthful beliefs he'd be a machine.
I said it then, I'll say it again. A fool will be lead by pride. That guy rejected and considered every argument by Dr. White as false without even: 1) listening to Dr. White's entire argument, and 2) by saying all of his evidence is wrong.. Without knowing or reading about Dr. White's evidence. His pride will lead him towards condemnation, and with tears in my heart, there is nothing one can do with the hardened heart of a fool.
Latter Day Saints acknowledge the existence of many gods but only worship the Most High God and his Son Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.
@@micahclouse is that the context or the exact quote we’re hearing? Sorry, but was wondering what is he exactly saying before “I don’t wanna rock the boat, I wanna sink it”
@@haroldbailey9011 I'm not sure which sermon it is from exactly. If you look up apologia radio and Walter Martin in UA-cam I think they listen to one of his sermons and review it. The quote might be from that sermon they review. Martin, more of less, wanted to sink the fair weather, cause no trouble Christians who let heresy and wickedness into church of Jesus Christ.
“Logos” is the logic of God. The scripture reveals the mind of God, and we must use the worldview of God to understand Him. QUACKU does not understand the epistemology of propositional revelation.
I never have had a problem with the trinity! I don't know why people battle with that! It's all through scripture! I think when one is born again it all makes sense!
Dr. White has studied (I thought) the archeology of the Bible, why didnt he refute some of the statements on the reliability of scripture when the guest said it had been corrupted ?
Lighty: They do have better answers about the afterlife. And the ancient Christians didn't all believe in the trinity, that was decided on by the council of Nicea.
Apologia Studios Yes, I was hoping to include my facebook friends as well though. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the birthday fundraisers that they do? Try involving yourselves there (on facebook) within the non profit search tab. How this is done? i'm not sure.
Note please at Hebrews 2:2,3 the distinction the apostle Paul makes between the angels Moses spoke face to face with and the Lord through whom the gospel first began to be declared. Thus the fact that the angel may be addressed as God or even JEHOVAH never means that said angel is literally God. And may not even mean that said angel is the prehuman Logos.
How is the 3 stages of H20 analogy akin to modalism? Is not the essence and substance of liquid water, ice and gas (say steam) H20 yet in 3 different individual states just as Elohim is in essence God being but in 3 different individual persons?
Because the H2O is either in ice, liquid, or gas "mode". There's no liquid or gas while it's in ice state. That analogy falls because it basically says during the incarnation of Christ, there's no Father or Holy Spirit. The liquid does not have a personal relationship with the solid and gas. It's just the same H20 in a different state.
@@dad2themax717 The relationship of those three modes is the chemical makeup H2O. So even if it's liquid gas or ice in its basic ontological existence all those modes are still H20. Whether in the flesh as in the Incarnation or spirit, he is still YHWH.
@Lizica Dumitru yes. Christ is always God. The Father is always God. Spirit always God. However, when liquid turns to ice, there's no gas or liquid present. When God is incarnate, there is still The Father and still The Spirit.
@Lizica Dumitru yes. So, in order for the analogy to work, you would need one water molecule that is solid, liquid, and gas all at the same time. I used to use he H2O analogy myself until I was corrected by a church ender. There are plenty of articles and writings on the subject that further demonstrate how that and many other analogies fail to truly grasp the triune nature. Our God is amazing.
Jeff Durbin says that the Bible teaches the Trinity but it’s actually only all the exegeses of scripture that teach it. Nowhere in the Bible itself is the Trinity ever mentioned let alone outlined.
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Jeff's extreme hatred, lack of knowledge of CHRISTIANITY, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, is obvious.
Audio Starts at 4:08
You're a hero
There's always a good fellow that's going to tell us when it starts
You are a saint
Truly the best
and then gets really loud after 17 minutes
Kwaku said in his testimony that he was raised in a liberal household and was a Methodist for less than a year until some beautiful Mormon girls invited him to LDS church where he “felt in his heart” that they had better answers for the afterlife concerning gays and Muslims and Hell.
Of course that answer felt great to his human nature!
He literally had no understanding of the Bible or Protestant theology and was suckered away by chicks that gave him attention 🤦🏻♂️
OOF
Wow! Great job seeing and calling all that out.
Tuuuffff 😂 savage bruv
Sheologians can bring people to Christ faster than your pastor
@@srilankangenie u dont get points for bringing people to christ faster, you do it the right way, to the right christ
@@heftymagic4814 I have a question that needs a straight answer. Does the real Jesus create the Holocaust for our own good? Or does he give humans the free will to choose what they want to create and leave that choice purely up to us?
Kwaku strikes me as disingenuous. He'll ask a question in hopes of scoring some kind of point then quickly scurry onto something else when its being answered. Because hes not interested in the answer, he just wants to find some angle of attack.
Daniel Omitted that’s how Mormons are .
@@ryanrivera5611 typically not though. At least not the ones ive encountered. Id expect this of catholics or muslims, mormons not so much.
Hes legit gay too!!!
That's his claim for why he wanted to start a YT channel. He thought LDS needed more people on his side to attack better so he took on the responsibility to attack on "better" angles to defend their beliefs.
Kwaku seems like a future non Mormon. Like the LDS version of good mythical morning.
Jeff, I'm glad you stopped his cultic proselytizing on your show!
I doubt it would have made a difference, from what I can tell there's only Christians, Mormons, New Atheists, and Oneness heretics watching this. All of which aren't likely to have been moved by a last ditch effort to raise emotional bias against the opposition and drown them out with basically a "we aren't like them" appeal.
I agree, I was glad he stood up on that.
deadeye851
I understand your point, but for the Mormon representative to "bear his testimony" was wrong and disrespectful. He used faulty appeals, racism and then wanted to proselytize people?! The Mormon worldview is hypocritical and heretical!
James 1:2-8 NASB
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, [3] knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. [4] And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. [5] But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. [6] But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. [7] For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, [8] being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
built4speed101 why?
Hayden Carroll when that father doesn’t exist and he is really the devil
I know it's been 2 years since thus all happened, but I'd love to see a follow-up on this guy and see if anything has changed.
Much love brothers and sister. God bless 🙌🙏❤
Just Google him. He’s stronger than ever in his faith.
Still Mormon and also a covid denier who organized events of hundreds of people that made people sick and got people seriously hurt during the event itself.
@@SamM-lv8hr appreciate you taking the time for your feedback Sam. Thank you!:)
@@SamM-lv8hrgood, I'm a covid denier, but thanks for sharing
Thanks jeff ur Ministry changed my life
I watched the entire debate!
Kwaku could do nothing but appeal to his own confidence level and make dogmatic empty authority claims. He did so much interrupting that Jeff and Dr. Whites points could hardly have room to be completed.
God bless you brothers at Apologia for standing for the truth of Christ and confronting the works and doctrines of darkness!
Soli Deo Gloria 🙌🏻
I am no mormon, but the kid did a great job. It was two on one. Two highly educated seasoned veterans versus one young mormon. He did really well putting them both on the defensive about predestination. Predestination needs to be called out for the folly that it is.
@ John 3:36
Sir,
Whether or not you agree with Calvinism is a separate issue. I won’t dispute that with you. But, I have to say that you are wrong that Kwaku did a good job.
I’ve watched debates for over 15 years on a vast range of topics. And have studied apologetics for over 20 years. When a person does good, I have no problem saying so (even if they are an atheist) debating against my own faith as a Christian.
The debate with this Mormon fellow did not go well for him. The only thing he had going for him was:
1. Courage (in the first place) to fly out and go on the show with two very scholarly and educated Christian apologists
And,
2. A high level of energy and feistiness
But let’s not mistake those two things with what it means to actually have:
•good arguments
•good rebuttals
•a good grasp on Christian theology (especially the aspects of it you are debating)
•proper exegesis of cited scriptures
The way this kid conducted himself was very poor. And anyone who takes the time to closely and honestly observe will see that!
Thank you for the kind reply. I see where you are coming from. Since you enjoy debates, perhaps you will enjoy an analysis of this debate: ua-cam.com/video/5ERacFJF87U/v-deo.html
What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?"
Answer: Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.” Many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically.
The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.
The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23), and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are receiving what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some.
If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to choose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice-all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!”
www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html
The objection is not predestination itself. Check out the video: ua-cam.com/video/GwVFauQeuK4/v-deo.html
Thank you for going step by step on every misconception about the TRINITY. Definitely helped!
I know it's been 2 years but, hopefully this will help as well - Thinking of God as 3 demenional. Also, that he is God, how can we, as humans, even think to know him? Why wouldn't he be so amazing as a Holy Trinity God? It's so cool & something so amazing to think through.
God Bless Brother 🙏🏼
@@MsGhost87 bot
I am so thankful that this follow up video was made. I was so upset after listening to that debate. This gives it a bit of closure that I personally was seeking, of course the fight continues for our Lord. I have been watching and listening for about 3 years now, thank you for your time!
In the future there should be a dedicated moderator inducing a more formal debate setting. James and Jeff did great trying to explain Kwaku's fallacies but there was so much interruption that a lot of it got lost in translation.
This would probably avoid Kwaku's crazy derailment at the end when he realized he wasn't equipped to defend Mormonism shifting the entire debate topic to Calvinism.
I think to at least some degree it is instructive to note the crazy Calvinists attacking the Church of Jesus Christ really don't offer anything either intellectually fulfilling or real. Kwaku is simply making the point of either how they are being intellectually dishonest by arguing positions which inherently require the creatures to possess freewill, or they don't understand the implications of their position. Either way, they offer nothing in the way of salvation.
I was able to listen to this semi and weird debate and as someone looking into religion, I did not like the Apologia gumbo. It was terribly moderated and edited and lacked, what christians call, gospel centered discussion. As I have looked into many religions, the one that resonates best with me and my inward thoughts was not the mormons or the Apologia's point of view, but it is a religion called The Church of Jesus Christ of the latter day saints. I believe this is what it is called. Just my thoughts as I have looked at Christian and non Christian beliefs.
@@dtanner2975 I encourage you to watch James whites formal debates on the Trinity with Muslim opponents. I went through the same thing around 5 years ago. I wouldn't base anything on this debate as it was unfocused.
@@dtanner2975 The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is essentially the same thing as the mormon church. You may feel a pull toward them, as many people do. However, this does NOT indicate truth. Their theology is extremely "creature" focused, rather than "Creator" focused.
The enemy (Satan) appears as an angel of light and deceives many with what looks like or feels like truth, but is a lie. He will bait with what seems like truth, or even (partial) truth itself. It is alot more appealing to most people to reject what the Bible says about salvation.
Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, He is the ONLY way of salvation. His sacrifice atoned for our sins, bridged the gap that separated man from God, and made fellowship possible again. Salvation is found in Jesus alone, written in the Bible alone, NOT what Joseph Smith says, or any other person who attempts to add to, change or supplement the Bible, claiming their revelation to be inspired by God.
I encourage you as well to look at other debates, and also other Apologia videos as they are much better at explaining/teaching Christian doctrine than this debate was. Justin Peters, Carter Conlon, and Todd Friel also are solid from which to learn doctrine as well.
Prayers for you that the true God (which I belive is the God of the Bible) leads you to the Truth you are seeking 🙂
First of all, Jeff was "in charge" but he was not the moderator...second, Dr.white and Pastor Jeff the mighty ninja tried their hardest to evangelize kwaku with scripture? In context? Original Hebrew and Greek context....they could've went even farther into the grammatical issues that kwaku would need to deal with having the position he has...and 3rd, the editing?...why in the world is that important to the topic at hand here?...thats irrelevant...BTW I think the editing was great...another better than what you're probably doing 😅 so stop running your mouth about things u don't know or understand, please and thank you
Love you, guys and gal! I can't tell you how much I learn and have a desire to dive into the Word more and study history and doctrine. Bless y'all!
To Share The Gospel if you want to study history it would be best to study something that you find in the history section of the library, not the mythology section. Because it obviously is NOT history. It is stories. Fairy tales.
Great channel! Say have you folks at Apologia Church considered pasting links to specific points in your radio program? It’s long, which is fine, but sometimes folks don’t have the time to listen all at once. Little blue time stamped links might make the program more accessible in this busy life schedule we all seem engulfed in. God bless to you Jeff and all the other wonderful people at Apologia Church!
I heard a wonderful endorsement of you Jeff from, ‘It’s Me Jesse.’ A lovely Christian sister’s UA-cam channel. She is as equally dedicated as you all are to refuting Mormonism, sharing the Gospel, and rescuing people out of Mormonism.
Well done. This really helped after the confusion of the debate with so much interruption and false statements.
That dude was a classic case of a fool who thinks he knows everything but knows nothing and does not put in the hours studying his beliefs but expects everyone else to listen to him and only him
He does not represent the church, only himself.
Amen! (We're talkin' about Derbin, right?)
Mormons expect their Priesthood to be respected. They really think that people are going to feel the "power" of their Mormon priesthood.
Klarity*11, they expect their priesthood to be respected within their church. If anything, they expected their priesthood to be disrespected from outside their church, and here you are.
@@PatristicArcana why is it when someone calls out the facts in a particular religion, you take it as being disrespectful. No names were called, nothing taken out of context. Just pure facts. That wasn't even directed towards you but I'd give a polite nudge for you to take constructive criticism better
Watched the entire debate and this response. As a Christian who is passionate about apologetics, I cannot tell you how helpful this whole debate and response are to those wanting to strengthen their faith in the nature of God. Christians who wish to understand the trinity better, WATCH this and the preceding debate. Christians who understand the trinity but wish to be reminded why it is so important to define it accurately and correctly? WATCH this and the preceding debate.
I cannot stop ranting how important discussions and corrections like this are
Thank you Apologia Studios for defending the faith and being Gods instrument for guiding fellow believers to the truth of God.
The Preacher You received undeniable witness that BoM was true?
John Dominy the entire debate was a waste of time. Appeals to the Bible and faith are both silly reasons to believe in anything.
Apologia Church...
I love you guys. I respect you. I love what you do. I learn from you. Earlier in this podcast, I heard how you dealt with the young man’s issues regarding the Methodist Church. I am in the Methodist Church and I attend Church Camp. Those things he’s pointed out-I heard and seen. However, I’m a Christian before any denomination. I trust in Christ to work hard through my time there to give the Youth deep doctrinal truths. Now, I know you guys are Baptists. Reform Baptists-Calvinists. Lol I get it mixed up (I mean that in love). I don’t think it wise to group everyone in the Methodist Church in that category. I will stay Methodist. And you will stay Baptist. One day I would love to come right alongside you guys and talk with unbelievers, Mormons, etc. I’m practicing that now. But I don’t agree with or lean towards all those things Methodist do and the deepest theological ideals as I don’t lean fully towards Baptist/Calvinist ideals. Long story short, you have some out here (who just happen to be Baptist or Methodist) in the faith, fighting sin, the world’s ideals, and preaching the good news. So please don’t let it slip by but show love to the ones that are still preaching and showing love, even if the Methodist may minimally differ from you.
With that said, I will still watch, support financially, and love you guys because you are doing a GREAT thing.
Sadly, Jeremiah Phillips, Methodists are as apostate and heretical as the Metropolitan chvrch in San Francisco. All Rainbow and no Gospel. Most not all of course.
The thing is people and churches that identify as Methodist (or any denomination) do so because they share similar views to the Methodist denomination. The issue is the Methodist denomination has bad theology, and bad theology hurts people and obscures the truth of God, especially if it has a liberal bent (theologically liberal, not a reference to politics). If you can't bristle up and have issues with a denomination in the sense you describe, then you lose the ability to point out categorical issues that must be addressed. The exception doesn't prove the rule, and if someone continues identifying with a denomination, then it is absolutely fair to judge their views in a manner that assumes it to fall in line with the denomination they fall under. Especially if they do not separate themselves from that denomination in any way aside from merely claiming that not all people are uniform.
Post-modernism has further corrupted Kwaku's mind (a phenomenon rife in millenial crowds) - ie. words are meaningless and up to an infinite variety of interpretations based on feelings and relativist/subjective machinations.
But it is super frustrating when those like Kwaku get a hold of your son like they have done to mine. Suspension of reason and common sense... There is somehow something super appealing in the "modern" LDS to that age 18-20 year old age group. While I agree they prey of theologically impaired, our son was baptized and confirmed Christian (with 3 others siblings doing the same) and even then was susceptible. Kwaku and others like him are soul killers. The dude just likes to hear himself talk.
Don't blame post-modernism for Kwaku, post-modernists at least know how to read
Jeff, in your response part 2, please include and respond to some of their comments in the 3 Mormons episode of the Cross. It could help represent their utter ignorance of the atonement/ grace.
quaku's usual response "nuh uh".
This is so good guys, and one Shelogion (love you Joy, and Summer lol!!). Praise God for this opportunity for y'all to do this publicly! These are great conversations and faith building. I'll continue to pray for you all and share. God bless!
And I spelled that totally wrong lol. Sheologians! Love the podcast. Y'all say and explain biblical truths every week and I don't miss an episode. Praise God for working through you ladies!
Stream starts at 4:11
Thank you!⛪
THANK YOU for addressing Kwaku's poor understanding of the Trinity
John Yelland how can you have a poor understanding of a fictional or made up concept. The trinity is a human construct due to their inability to understand how a godhead of three can be one in mind and purpose but separate beings. Scripture backs up that explanation but not a single scripture backs up God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit being the same being. Period.
See, you yourself are showing your poor understanding of not only the Holy Trinity but of Church history. Just ask yourself honestly, why would a council need to be held to determine once and for all whether Christ was an exalted creation of God or God Himself? This would only need to be debated if there was a lot of scriptural support for both, or at least seemingly so. The Council of Nicaea decided that God and Christ were indeed of the same substance, and that the subordinationist heresy of Arianism was unscriptural. The Church came to this decision under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, my friend. The scriptures are chalked FULL of support for Christ's deity, as well as that of the Holy Spirit. I definitely recommend you do some more research on this topic :)
@@scottdfsaf4997 Absolutely false. Wrong.
I love Apologia Radio. I listen as often as I can and have benefitted so much. Apologia has inspired me to stay close to the scriptures and has helped me to grasp the Trinity more clearly. Apologia has inspired me to hold the Bible as the one source of truth at all costs. Apologia has taught me the worth of presuppositional Christian thought. Great response to the debate. Thank you for your ministry. I have a few comments that I hope you will take to heart.
I hope you will avoid making loose comments on the last three hundred years of church history from now on. In the last few weeks, two members of the panel have made ridiculous claims about movements and figures from the two Great Awakenings. These comments were quick but inaccurate. Be sure to use the same acumen when speaking of history as you seek to use when opening the scriptures.
In this episode, one claimed that Methodism was born in the mid-1800s in a New York area where many cults were born. This was spoken as a strike on the classical Methodist movement (apparently). This is a great and embarrassing error. Methodism was born in the 1700s at Oxford among John Wesley, Charles Wesley, George Whitefield, and others. Only later did John Wesley become the respected leader of "the People Called Methodists." The modern Methodist movement is not even a shadow of what it was in their day.
At the end of his life, renowned Calvinistic evangelist George Whitefield said the following of the Methodist movement:
"My brother Wesley acted wisely. The souls that were awakened under his ministry he joined in Class, and thus preserved the fruit of his labor. This I neglected, and my people are a rope of sand."
In Whitefield's own estimation, Wesley's converts had grown in grace while his own had backslidden. (Yes, I mean God's converts through Wesley/Whitefield, don't worry).
A large percentage of converts in the 1700s and 1800s were born again under Methodism's simple, practical gospel preaching and organized discipleship efforts. Even Charles Spurgeon came to faith through the influence of a simple Methodist preacher. After sitting many years under complex preaching, the simple Methodist gave an elementary call to "look to Christ," and Spurgeon was born from above. Spurgeon later said of John Wesley:
"Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley."
Please remember that most people do not do their own research. If you make false and negative claims about church history, the people will believe you. When they hear the name "John Wesley," they will think,
1. "Apologia inferred that Methodism sprang from an area of strong cult activity.
2. John Wesley was recognized as the leader of the Methodist movement.
3. Therefore, John Wesley must not have been a faithful Christian, evangelist, and preacher, but a sort of religious fanatic that led an ungodly movement."
You know it's true -- especially for cage-stage Calvinists who tend to cling to whatever criticism they can find. Whenever someone says, "John Wesley said...", they will automatically shut their ears. Let's be honest.
Be careful. You have a large audience. You can easily spread misinformation and heap dishonor upon men and movements which God Himself has honored. It would be unfortunate if you spread misinformation while rebuking 3 Mormons for doing the same (regarding the Trinity etc). It would be TRAGIC if you did this regarding some of the greatest moves and men of God in history.
By all means, engage historic movements, preachers, their teachings, and the (often radically different) teachings of their progeny. But do so clearly and in a way that will help others to see both their strengths and weaknesses.
Please continue to fight historic heresies, engage the cults, preach the gospel, and labor to "end abortion now!" But be careful to use perfect acumen when talking about recent Church history. You guys are awesome. I'm thankful for God's ministry through you. Keep using your voice. God bless you.
I watched the original debate and the whole time I was thinking ....hmmm dr white and pastor Jeff are holding back. Only in a way to be gracious to kwaku. They I believe were trying to nudge him to see his own foolishness and inconsistency while kwaku was spiraling out of control handing out last ditch efforts like polytheistic Jews and ...,something about math. I high five dr white and durbin for their restraint. God has really used these two men who have really taught me a lot about the Bible and reformed theology. It wasn't to many years ago that I was a Christian who if asked about the trinity could have really blown it. My heart goes out to the mormons. I live in Utah so I know many well. My prayer is that they find rest and peace in the truth. Seeing mormons live out their faith is like watching someone try to walk across hot sand. They have to keep hopping around trying not to get burned by the realities of lds doctrine and all the while with a really big smile on their face.
Agreed. It was tough to listen to the whole thing but Durbin and Dr White were very gracious while still firm with what’s in the text
Iindsey Cantrell stop lying to yourself, they were not gracious and could not answer kwakus questions with clarity. They were rattled, frustrated not at being interrupted (because they were doing the same) but at the fact they were being questioned back and had nothing substantial while going around in circles.
Not lying to my self. I have listened to hours and hours of different content of both of these men refuting Mormonism. They know all the skeletons hiding in Mormon doctrine. Trust me they were being generously gracious.
He was making good points if you cant see that then you are brainwashed.
The format of this presentation is that Jeff Durbin does almost all the talking and the other three nod their heads and unitedly agree with everything he’s saying. I get it!
I was a Mormon convert. The Mormons prey of the theologically weak because they don’t have the knowledge to refute Mormonism’s claims. Thankfully I started doing my own research and figured out it was all a big scam. Thank you for what you’re doing.
Really? I converted while I was studying biblical text in college. Had some pretty high standards for converting. Generalized claims about a large group of people are never good. Mormons, just like other denominations, are a part of the Christian fabric whether you agree or not, and they're the most Christian in my opinion.
Except Mormons theologically are light years apart from other Christian denominations relating to the nature of God, who is Jesus, and the gospel.
Amen. Never forget that it was God that brought you out of that into the light.
@cindybin2001 how can you refute the fact that your own church leadership admits that the book of Abraham is a fraud and that Joseph smith could not read or translate Egyptian and that Deuteronomy 13, 18, Mathew 7, mathew 24 all give warnings that Joseph smith fits to a T?
I did the same as well brother, but with Oneness Pentecostalism(UPCI). Calvinism and church history really shook me when I started studying more. I was a youth leader and a missionary beliving the strawman that the Trinity is polytheism. Thank the Lord, He showed us both the truth.
Having this backround makes apologetics very enjoyable. Thanks Jeff!
I had a hard time with this debate because no one would let the other answer completely without interrupting them. And that was on both sides. Next debate should have some kind of moderator that permits equal time. That being said, I applaud you for your patience. Keep on defending the gospel while helps equips the rest of us to do the same.
Excellent debate, hard to listen to, but I enjoyed the dialogue.
You all at Apologia (Bible?) (Community?) (Grace?) Church and Pre-Born are the greatest abortion ministries extant. I enjoy that so very much
Also, thanks Reverend Durbin for taking on Mormonism. Reverend John MacArthur, Junior has said, it's "snatching a branch from the burning."
Your audio team needs some training, have them watch some videos on clipping and setting gain levels as well as compression/limiting on channels. The mic's seem to always be clipping (gain to high = clipping = voice gets distorted). You're using $400 mic's each, but all that money is a waste if the gain isn't set right. A little knowledge goes a long way!
Around 44:45 they discuss how modalism. I agree that modalism is wrong, then they go on to say that we should never use an earthly example to try to explain the tri-unity on God. I have an example that I was given & I want advice as to whether or not I should use it. I heard a minister say that this example is limited in that the difference between God & humans is that he always existed but the analogy is this " In a Family you can have a Husband , a wife & children even though there is more than one person, they make up ONE FAMILY ". since the "i-m" on the word elohim is plural in hebrew it seemed to make pretty good sense when I heard that example.
Kwaku refuses to be wrong....it’s the same defensive behaviour you always get from mormons. They live in a club and just ignore any fact shown to them that contradicts their bizarre beliefs.
"little little brigham can't you see" - Luke LOL i love you that was so funny xD
I wonder if people realize that humans have three parts. We have a soul, we have a spirit, and we have flesh. So I wonder if that's what God meant when he said he made us in his image.
What's the difference between soul and spirit
@@purplesilverlight soul is our personality it’s made up of who we are as a person inside our flesh. Our spirit is eternal. And that leaves our body when we die.
Great video!!.....
Kwaku am sorry he was so rude and disrespectful and definitely lack the patience and love so dr White and Jeff had the spirit of truth Kwaku wasn't fully prepared.
Even though I know that Mormonism is crap, I felt sad for Kwaku. Mormons should theologically train the people who represent them.
Did Joseph smith translate by the gift and power of God or by the same peep stone he used to attempt to dig up buried treasure with?
Peep stone. The Bible says NO to using these.
www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng
My question was loaded btw
Have you read the gospel topic essays on LDS.org Cindybin?
Excellent!
I heard one of the Latter Day Saints say all the apostles died...
According to D&C 7, the apostle John is still alive. So I'm guessing he never read that part of Doctrine and Covenants.
The Book of Mormon also says that 3 Nephites are still alive. So I guess there couldn't have been a complete apostasy.
Bringing up the point about the bookshelf. Why do we need outside sources to prove what should be plain in the texts. Wouldnt it be like relying on someone else or something else.
As a former Mormon you would do better to interview me. I know what Mormons need to hear. The way a debate goes is like a sporting event. But with a debate both sides can announce victory. It doesn't accomplish anything. To turn hearts I invite you to reach out to me. Thank you
@Shane Stephen that's really Christian of you.. meanwhile I pray diligently for my family in SLC to be touched by the Lord!! And if anyone knows what they need to hear it's someone like me. I guess you think arguing in circles is doing the Lords' work.. you will know them by their fruits, so run along Rabbi.. Christians don't need you
Run along Rabbi, you have no respect or clue how God works with people. learn to spell also jerk
@Sheep Dog, we all agree God turns the hearts. But that doesn't mean you can just sit idly by acting like you have no calling. You are called to make disciples of all nations. (Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Matthew 28:19-20 ESV)
Also:
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
Colossians 3:23-24 ESV
So you should do everything with excellence, for the one true and perfect God. If you refuse to discern what forms of evangelism are most effective, you're just as bad as the Westboro Baptists that preach with so much hate. That is not the standard of excellence our Lord calls us to. They would defend their hate with the same thing you said: Only God can turn hearts.
Please repent from your idle spirit and your discouragement towards a brother in Christ's willingness to give his testimony to further the kingdom of God.
+Shane Stephen
lol how mad are you
@@yodasoja2011 who needs enemies when you've got fake Christians?
I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Happy to engage in discussion with you. I don’t believe the trinity is Christian. No I don’t believe trinity and duality are the same. I am a convert from Catholicism and no one has written more about the Trinity than St. Augustine.
Well, Trust in Joe the convicted con man for your salvation. I hear he wants to invite you to his lake party...
What do you do when you see a spaceman?
Park your car, man.
somewheretheheartis me too. 😂
Mormonism is interesting to me because of the inconsistency of ancient history. I think it’s pretty conclusive that the Americas were re-discovered and biblical people were indeed traveling back-and-forth well before the time of Columbus and the other great explorers.
All through gods providence
He has no doctrinal books from the last 2000 years because if he read them he would be excommunicated. He should read Matthew Henry’s commentary’s to start with. It would blow his mind about how moronic what the Mormon Church taught him about Biblical Theology.
You've got it backwards. Latter-day Saints don't receive excommunication nor any other form of church discipline for reading publications outside of their Church. On the contrary, they promote education on these subjects in general. Perhaps you're thinking of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
PatristicArcana Really? I’d love to challenge Kwaku to read the unapproved bible that Dr. White gave him and pick up a copy of Matthew Henry’s condensed commentaries and make a list of 5 books on Christian Doctrines written by people who are now deceased and walk up to his Bishops high council and say “ I’ve been reading this bible and studying these texts at the advice of a PhD Theologian and known Calvinist, and I’d like you to answer my questions about the gross inconsistencies in LDS doctrine.” He’s in big trouble.
You mean that you'd like to put words into Kwaku's mouth? That's an interesting fantasy, and all, but it doesn't coincide with the reality of the lack of Latter-day Saint restrictions on what their members can read.
@@PatristicArcana This isn't true. Part of my family are Mormons and they will not read anything outside the church publications. They even warned me against it when I tried to get them to read something else. I was told satan puts out material to confuse people. You can read anything and the Holy Spirit will give you discernment. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
@@@theladygunsmith What you're talking about is an isolated instance. What I'm talking about is (1) the official stance of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and (2) the normative practices of members thereof. Again, Latter-day Saints simply aren't restricted by their Church regarding what reading material they have access to.
I've used the example of solid, liquid and vapor water to show categories, but not the Triune God. The 3 phases of water are the same in chemical composition but different in phase. Since Mormons often don't understand categories, this can be useful to show that some things can be the same in one category and different in another category without causing a contradiction. The 3 phases of water is not a good analogue for the Triune God, however.
Teaching them about categories helps them to understand that having a God who is 1 in being (1st category: being/essence) and 3 in persons (2nd category: persons) does not cause a logical or mathematical contradiction (as Kwaku attempted to prove).
Daric Not that God is an egg (lol), but I use the egg as illustration for my kids to understand. An egg consists of the shell, the white and the yoke. The yoke is not the white, the white is not the shell, and the shell is not the yoke. But all three are equally the egg. My son still claims the yoke shouldn't be part of the egg. Much like many deny Jesus as part of God. 😂
Destiny Theall except when you crack the egg and throw away the shell, you are *not* throwing away the egg. You are only throwing away the shell of the egg. So, no, the parts of the egg are not all equally the egg.
When you consider Mormon Jesus is actually Lucifer then it all makes sense. The pieces fit.
suggestion. Invite Fr. Kallistos Ware for a chat. The goal is one holy Catholic and apostolic church. If the goal is eventually for mankind to come back together into Christ's Church, then it is time to look to the original Church and hash out the differences to bring us all back to His Church. Orthodoxy is the root, Christianity is the whole tree. God is the Creator of that tree.
you just can't argue with someone who operates with such a fractured intellectual integrity...
Amen! (We're talkin' about Derbin, right?)
Yes, White and Durbin have a highly fractured intellectual integrity.
inTruthbyGrace all of them have fractured intellectual integrity. None of them think logically from the absolute beginning. Starting where we all have no knowledge of god and then examine the evidence to see if it points to a god. Which it absolutely does not!
I found it interesting that he accused our brothers of using a European interpretation (don’t remember the EXACT wording) but those Europeans interpreters if you want to call them that based themselves on historic interpretation which was explicitly middle eastern/African/near eastern
Jeff and team, here's the Talmage exegesis of Psalm 82:6 that you reference in passing in this video:
“Divinely Appointed Judges Called 'Gods.' - In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Ex. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin darkened minds.”
-- James Talmage, "Jesus the Christ", p. 501; www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-28?lang=eng
Beast mode!!!
Here's some additional exegesis:
“'God has taken His place in the council of the gods, and in the midst of the gods He holds judgment.' [Psalms 82:1] He is speaking of the Father and the Son, and of those who received the filial adoption [cf. Romans 8:15] . . . . Of what gods [is He God]? Of those of whom He said, I have said, ‘You are gods, sons of the Most High.’ [Psalms 82:6] Of those, namely, who have received the grace of filial adoption”
(Irenaeus, 'Against the Heresies' 3:6:1, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 64:39)
“it will be impossible to admit the existence of another god, since no one is permitted to possess anything of God. ‘In that case,’ you say, ‘we do not possess anything of God either.’ On the contrary, we do possess something of Him, and we shall do so, but by receiving it from Himself, not from ourselves. For we shall even be gods, if we deserve to be those of whom He pronounced: 'I have said Ye are gods,' [Psalms 82:6] and, 'God stood in the congregation of gods,' [Psalms 82:1] but by His grace, not by a property of our own, since it is He alone who can make gods.”
(Tertullian, ca. 202, 'Treatise Against Hermogenes' 5:3-4, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 24:33)
April showers bring May flowers, and May flowers bring pilgrims.
Two expert veterans against a young naive new LDS convert ??!!
Epic fail
Right
So what?
Hi Jeff can you share the contact info of the book maker that made the Bible that was gifted to the young Mormon? Thank you
Kawaku is very difficult to listen to. He's very arrogant, lacking courtesy and humility.
So you agree with those two sickos on the holocaust?
Agreed!!🤣
Stephanie Smith Agreed.
@@jordanjackson7079yes
Someone really should write a Kwaku haiku. :)
That's partialism Patrick!!!
Thanks for pointing that out. I took comment down because I don't want to misrepresent our Holy God in any way. I do need to rework that description. Have a good day and God bless you in Jesus Name.
I'm remembering a cartoon right now. What was it called, if you are quoting it?
@@ebenezercunningham2169 it's Donal and Connell from Lutheran Satire the title of the video is "Bad Analogies".
@@MarsRestorations haha now I remember! Thanks
@@ebenezercunningham2169 very talented! Why did you stop posting videos?
Jeff, I think it's important to note that not only did you not get a chance to discuss Psalm 82 (which I was disappointed about) but if I recall correctly, Kwaku was one breath from starting to read Psalm 82 and he suddenly started a rabbit hole off into another subject. He never even read the psalm that he was so confident supported his view!
You're absolutely right. I think they will have him Skype in perhaps next time
So let's start with the last video....My question is, why was Kwaku picked to represent the LDS (no offense to Kwaku)? You have on one hand, "Dr" White (quotes are because I question all people with degrees from unaccredited universities. I understand why they refuse to accept accreditation, but without a universally accepted base line standard, we don't know what those degrees actually mean) who apparently has attended various schools and written several books. Now you pair him with some kid, and let's make no mistake about it....he is a kid, who either is a recent grad of BYU or still a student. Seems a bit of a well, set up, if you will. An author/"Dr" vs a kid with a wacky UA-cam channel that tries mostly to explain Mormon culture. I don't think it would have been that difficult to pull up any of the BYU professor rosters and found someone of the LDS faith willing to talk. A small search would have produced many with their own PhD degrees from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc, etc who may have been a little more interesting to talk with.
Jesse....I'm not arguing that he hasn't put in a lot of work. All work doesn't necessarily mean productive work. Many theological universities are not accredited due to the fact these universities don't want to be subjected to the rules or intrusiveness of the accreditation boards. I get it. However, that makes me also wonder how one actually can tell what is a "valid" degree from such a school when the curriculum of one theological university may be NOTHING like the one across the street. If no one can agree or guarantee what even the base line is of that degree, how can such a degree be really respected?
And who judges that amount of work? Does the quality of work have anything do with the equation, or just sear number of classes or papers written are the key? If the theological university across the street requires X amount more course work towards a degree, does that invalidate another theological universities particular degree program? No set standard produces no set results.
OK....So the title in front of his name is meaningless, and we should only judge someone by their works. I can see that. There are colleges that if you send them in a check, you get a degree. There are many uneducated very smart people out there who have valid insight and knowledge, so you do have a point. So my next question is, why are so many people in this comment section rushing to throw that title in front of his name if we aren't to judge him by that title but his works?
Well, he's done work. What work he has done we don't know. He may be knowledgeable in the subject of theology, but how knowledgeable compared to another theological university grad with a similar or lesser degree, I don't know. Degrees can be handed out like tic-tacs. That is why an accreditation system was set up in universities. A base line is established and expected from all universities participating in said system. If one sets up a system that refuses to participate in that accreditation system or another such system agreed upon by a specialty school (theology, for example), how do we know what a degree bestowed upon someone means? How do we know that White isn't just naturally a smart guy who did his own research, gained noting in research skills or knowledge from his university experience and just accepted the title? I can go online right now and buy a Phd and insist everyone call me dr. My ability to write books would not be a factor in that online purchase. Maybe this is why White has said he is in the process of getting a degree from a South African university that is accredited.
>>why was Kwaku picked to represent the LDS
He picked himself. He admitted that he does not represent the church., only himself.
At 1John1:1 the word is spoken of as existing from 'apo' the beginning. Clearly proving that the word has a beginning. Proverbs8:22-30 refers to the beginning of the logos (logic) here called wisdom.
I saw the debate, and it was like the blind leading the blind. Neither one could see their own flaws in logic but recognized some of the flaws in each other's logic.
quacks2much TRUTH!
@@robmullin1128vague statements are meaningless.
God is Spirit And Truth.
Mormonism is like network marketing pyramid scheme.
Hi guys cld u pls address the archeological evidence he quoted to support his stance on d viability of Mormonism ?
Yes, I haven’t not seen a lot of debates with Jehovah’s Witnesses with Dr James Whites in a long time. I have friends that are in this cult and it just as frustrating to have a dialogue with them just as I seat here watching the content with the Mormons. What you think Jeff could we walk through the cults together to get a better understanding?
I would recommend to you Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin. I'm currently reading it right now, and Martin spends a significant amount of the first half of the book on the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I have the book....
Chris Jimenez - Yes, JW's and Mormons are twins religions!!...Check out this MUST SEE drop the mic 🎤 video that proves this point!!
ua-cam.com/video/C3Lk8H3--Ag/v-deo.html
2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Luke 8:13 - They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
I'm a former Mormon. I listened to this when I was falling asleep. I''ll admit that I didn't fully get the trinity and what's actually right or wrong, so I have to look it up, as my former religion certainly didn't follow what the Bible say.
Starts @ 4:10
I am a Mormon, and I’ve watched hours and hours of your material. I’ve also looked up everything you say that attempts to bash or dismantle the LDS church. And every single time I do any research and read the entirety of scriptures in the Bible and go to the source places for which you point and read them in context… You Have still not swayed me in anyway to discount the truth of LDS doctrine. I know My voice here is a needle in a haystack as your support comes almost solely from your anti-Mormon followers, so hopefully I don’t cause too much commotion here. I personally feel that the people that represent our church whether it be at the temple grounds or in your every day interviews. Even your interview with The gentleman from 3 Mormons. He does an OK job but of course like many make some grammatical errors or incorrect comments about our believes. It happens. Anyway I just want to say one thing that I find is an easy telltale sign that what you preach Is false is that you love to cherry pick verses from the Bible only to read amounts that suit your agenda. Here is a very potent example. At about the one 1:01:00 Area in your video here you and your friends decide to talk a lot about John 10 in Psalms 82. In John 10 Jesus is surrounded by a group of zealots who are giving him a hard time about his preaching in regards to the parable about us being sheep and he being the good shepherd. He tells them that he is one with heavenly father and the accuse him of calling himself God. He simply tells them after hearing this
”Why are you so shocked that I refer to myself as being God, after all you’ve already written in your law that I’ve said you are gods.”
Jesus never said that what was written was false!! Just because these are zealots and unjust preachers does not mean that everything that was written is incorrect. It is very possible that that very point, That we are children of God, is true. In fact there are countless places in the Bible where it specifically says we are children of God including Psalms 82.
So back to my point of how I feel you miss read the Scriptures or keep out of the reading words that dont suit your agenda. After you begin reading Psalms 82 you stop right before the most poignant and important verse that gives the most clarification. You dance around verse six and read it in a very negative tone voice, Even remove the word “children” and replace it with “son”.
What gives you the right to interpret verse six as a negative connotation, Or to imply God is being sarcastic? If God intended verse six to be a negative connotation he would’ve instead been more clear and said I never said you were gods, but instead what he’s really saying is,
“sure, I said you were gods, (because it’s true), that doesn’t mean you have the right to judge unjustly“
it should really read that way (And in a much more neutral tone voice)
6. I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Ironic Jeff would that part In such a negative tone, infusing his agenda.
God saying yes I said you are gods, even the children of God…
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
I feel your interpretation is a major stretch to prevent this clear truth.
So the fact that you would read those verses like that says a lot about your agenda in my opinion. Sure we have different interpretations of those scriptures but you have no right to say mine is wrong as it makes just as much sense as yours. It really makes more actually!
These men know the Bible thoroughly, plus its cultural and historical background. They have studied it in its original languages. They are well grounded in theology. And they DO make a lot more sense than you.
Klarity*11, Sorry, but I support my statement. And their obviously wrong? Just because a renown apologist says something doesn’t make it true, they’ve just been rooted in there inaccuracies for many years.
Since I am not a Calvinist, I only watch Apologia videos when they are about Mormon issues. They have a huge knowledge of the Bible, but I believe strongly that their Calvinistic interpretation is wrong. I am interested in their Biblical understanding of why Mormonism is wrong.
Clarity*11, I can relate to you in some degree. I too only watch Apologia videos so I can learn why they feel the Mormon Church is wrong. Only I do it because I know I can counter their points with confidence, and hopefully leave a comment or two preventing the unprepared LDS member who is unsure about our Cannon, or our church history, and prevent them from being lead away. And your right Calvinists are way off the mark... even if they had a correct interpretation of it. If your really interested in some counter play, and not just absorbing their prospective... when your viewing Apologia videos, do a quick search for key word "EastBlood" in the Comments and share your thoughts. Whats your biggest hangup with LDS doctrin?
EastBlood - And just because a false prophet such as Joseph Smith says something does not make it true. How many failed prophecies did Joe have again? Even one disqualified him and thus how can you trust anything he has put forth? Until you can reconcile Joseph Smith being a false prophet the conversation cannot go any further.
I wish I could defend Him the way you can.
If I can be a father a son an uncle a brother a cousin... Then why couldn't God be father son and holy spirit. 👼
NoFearX, that's considered Modalism (one god/3 modes); old-school heresy. Scripture clearly discloses God as the One infinite eternal Being consisting of three distinct persons; The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
@@UbWanKinoby66 I understand... I was simply being sarcastic in a way, because it's odd how people can question how he can be all three, and it was a way that I've heard it explained when I was younger meaning if any of us can be many things like I had said why is it so hard for people to understand that he is the father Son and Holy Spirit
Gotcha.
+NoFearX
The only main issue with your analogy (while I understand your main point) is that you would take up those roles/modes sequentially - you would not be a father at age 10 (for example) but later in your life. You may have a brother who is born several years later.
The three Persons in the Being of God I do see as three roles God uses to engage with His creation (eg. a Bridge/Mediator and a Helper), however, they are co-equal and co-eternal.
Perhaps some will see my use of "different roles" as 'modalism,' and thus heresy. But just like light is seen as a wave and as particles, does not change the source of the wave/particle - the light has one essence and form, described in two ways that are equally valid.
Wrapping one's head around this with a neat, nice analogy (within our limited minds) can be problematic.
If someone has an even better analogy to help in Trinitarian apologetics, I'm all ears.
@@logostruth1868 again the main point is the possibility of what I can be compared to how people question how could God be three
What solid materials should one read today to fully understand and teach their teens the Trinity?
Calvinism is the most wicked, vile, and detestable and unloving man made doctrine that is has been and is being taught. To quote Dave Hunt, "what love is this?" and we can also ask, "Is God all loving?" According to Calvinism, there are two kinds of calls (general and effectual), and two kinds of sinners (the predestined ones for heaven, the reprobates that are predestined to hell) and two kinds of elect. So, let's see, God will waste His time judging the lost for their works and not having their name in the book of life (REV. 20), all because He did not choose them and because of divine determinism? That is utter and complete non sensensical and exegetically untenable. It destroys the character and love of God. Why would He take the time to judge the lost reprobates and at the same time, hold them accountable for something that had no choice in choosing? Why does God commend so many in Scripture for choosing Him and condemn so many for not choosing Him, if the Calvinist systematic is true???
I would actually say Calvinism isn’t really man centered at all
There were some very good things about going to Christian youth camp during the summer the two times that I went. Good food and some fun sports activities, but I didn't learn much about Christ or God while I was there. First time I got in a fight because another boy thought it was funny to pee on my sleeping bag, and the second time one of the youth leaders was trying to be a bit more than friendly with my sister. We walked 12 miles to the bus station and got a ride home. It was a very long time before I thought about church or the bible after those two experiences.
Calvinism also changes who Christ/God is. Christ said, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" He did not say whosoever is elected, thus Calvinist basically are calling Christ a liar. There is not an account in Genesis where man is cursed with the total inability to come to God. Again, according to Calvinists, they are saying God was not completely honest when describing the curses men would now endure. I could go on and on, will not, but will make the last point. God commands that all men repent, Acts 17:30. Why would God give us a commandment that could not be fulfilled? If God threatens punishment, it implies the ability to comply and an ability to not comply. Thus the argument that God did give us free will to choose. By the way, why does the Apologia Church website not mention they are Calvinists?
Genesis,the fall of man,God put up a barrier between Him and man
@@cynthiaerickson3646 Christ took that barrier away.
@@cynthiaerickson3646 But choice was taken away. Genesis was all about choice.
When Jesus was suffering during the crucifiction he called out to the father to take away his suffering, IF they are one being in the same he could have stopped his own suffering but that is not what happened. So as far as Im concerned Kwaku is right.
Kwaku will probably stay a LDS because he is famous as one.
He would have to give up everything.
Is that also why Durbin and White will stay Calvinists?
@@PatristicArcanano we are reformed because we are right
Is that kind of circular reasoning common among the Reformed?
@@PatristicArcana we are correct in our humble objectively correct opinion :)
Instead of double teaming basically a Mormon teenager. Why don’t you debate a latter day saint who holds the same degree of education as you do. I thought your debate was very unfair.
kwaku was notified beforehand that James was gonna also be there, and kwaku agreed, so that's cap
4:12 to skip the silence at the beginning.
JOD vol 11 pg 269. “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.” Brigham
When he started proseltyzing near the end of the show, that told me much about his lack of spiritual maturity and underlying disrespect.
John8:50KJV" And I seek not mine own glory,there is one that seeketh and judgeth." Either Jesus went about attempting to persuade his fellow Jews that he was the God of Israel or he did not seek his own glory the both things could not be simultaneously true I choose to take my Lord at his word.
Psalms83:18KKB"That men may know that thou,whose name ALONE is JEHOVAH,art the MOST HIGH over all the earth." Note please there is but one named JEHOVAH. Note also that this one is the MOST HIGH. Therefore if your God is associated with two equals he is not JEHOVAH.
Kwaku is an amazing debater honestly
Hello how many debates have you watched? He is stuck on the Holocaust for some reason. Kwaku face plants quite a bit. Cringy to watch.
He needs amazing grace...
Junior Varsity Howard Stern wannabe at best
@@andreatimmers1720 just got the notis for this thread. I just mean his composure doesn't change even when he's obviously wrong, had he more truthful beliefs he'd be a machine.
5:32 start
I said it then, I'll say it again. A fool will be lead by pride. That guy rejected and considered every argument by Dr. White as false without even: 1) listening to Dr. White's entire argument, and 2) by saying all of his evidence is wrong.. Without knowing or reading about Dr. White's evidence. His pride will lead him towards condemnation, and with tears in my heart, there is nothing one can do with the hardened heart of a fool.
Latter Day Saints acknowledge the existence of many gods but only worship the Most High God and his Son Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.
Jeff, would it be biblical to compare the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to mind, body, and soul unrestricted by space, time and matter?
Could you guys PLEASE answer these . Is the clip at the beginning saying, “Non rockaboatus” lol? And where is that clip from?
From Walter Martin, author of The Kingdkm of the Cults. Hes saying Christians suffer from the 'disease' of not wanting to rock the boat.
@@micahclouse WOW! I’ve been asking that question for a few years on apologia video uploads haha. Thank you so much brother!!
@@micahclouse is that the context or the exact quote we’re hearing? Sorry, but was wondering what is he exactly saying before “I don’t wanna rock the boat, I wanna sink it”
@@haroldbailey9011 I'm not sure which sermon it is from exactly. If you look up apologia radio and Walter Martin in UA-cam I think they listen to one of his sermons and review it. The quote might be from that sermon they review. Martin, more of less, wanted to sink the fair weather, cause no trouble Christians who let heresy and wickedness into church of Jesus Christ.
“Logos” is the logic of God. The scripture reveals the mind of God, and we must use the worldview of God to understand Him.
QUACKU does not understand the epistemology of propositional revelation.
I never have had a problem with the trinity! I don't know why people battle with that! It's all through scripture! I think when one is born again it all makes sense!
why is the volume so high :,((
yea, lol I turned my volume all the way down but still sounded like those meme bass boost memes
Dr. White has studied (I thought) the archeology of the Bible, why didnt he refute some of the statements on the reliability of scripture when the guest said it had been corrupted ?
Lighty: They do have better answers about the afterlife. And the ancient Christians didn't all believe in the trinity, that was decided on by the council of Nicea.
Kwaku comes across as a yapping chihuahua attacking two pit bulls.. no contest
Through FaceBook's non profit fundraiser I wanted to support #EndAbortionNow but couldn't find it. Any recommendations?
Thank you! Go to endabortionnow.com. you can do it there.
Apologia Studios Yes, I was hoping to include my facebook friends as well though. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the birthday fundraisers that they do? Try involving yourselves there (on facebook) within the non profit search tab. How this is done? i'm not sure.
Note please at Hebrews 2:2,3 the distinction the apostle Paul makes between the angels Moses spoke face to face with and the Lord through whom the gospel first began to be declared. Thus the fact that the angel may be addressed as God or even JEHOVAH never means that said angel is literally God. And may not even mean that said angel is the prehuman Logos.
How is the 3 stages of H20 analogy akin to modalism? Is not the essence and substance of liquid water, ice and gas (say steam) H20 yet in 3 different individual states just as Elohim is in essence God being but in 3 different individual persons?
Because the H2O is either in ice, liquid, or gas "mode". There's no liquid or gas while it's in ice state. That analogy falls because it basically says during the incarnation of Christ, there's no Father or Holy Spirit.
The liquid does not have a personal relationship with the solid and gas. It's just the same H20 in a different state.
@@dad2themax717 The relationship of those three modes is the chemical makeup H2O. So even if it's liquid gas or ice in its basic ontological existence all those modes are still H20. Whether in the flesh as in the Incarnation or spirit, he is still YHWH.
@Lizica Dumitru yes. Christ is always God. The Father is always God. Spirit always God. However, when liquid turns to ice, there's no gas or liquid present. When God is incarnate, there is still The Father and still The Spirit.
@@dad2themax717 I see, you need all three to exist as each at one time for ONE cube of ice, let's say.
@Lizica Dumitru yes. So, in order for the analogy to work, you would need one water molecule that is solid, liquid, and gas all at the same time. I used to use he H2O analogy myself until I was corrected by a church ender. There are plenty of articles and writings on the subject that further demonstrate how that and many other analogies fail to truly grasp the triune nature. Our God is amazing.
Jeff Durbin says that the Bible teaches the Trinity but it’s actually only all the exegeses of scripture that teach it. Nowhere in the Bible itself is the Trinity ever mentioned let alone outlined.