Historical Retrospective | Deities and Demigods
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- Опубліковано 4 сер 2024
- A classic 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons hardcover supplement, I take a look back at what made this book great and what caused a bit of controversy with its publication!
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Sadly, I just learned that Jim Ward passed away today. Said to be one of the nicest creators in gaming and just a well loved person by those who knew him, his passing weighs heavily on our community. Thank you Mr. Ward for the many hours/ years of joy your works have brought to me, and so many others. You are greatly missed. 😪
Still my favourite AD&D book; sparked a fire in a 7 - 8 year old boy for different cultures that led to Youth Exchange, Uni Studies in Arthurian Legends, and general joy. Rest in peace Jim Ward, beloved of all the Pantheons!
Thanks, and, RIP
Just like you, as a kid in the early 1980's I avidly pored over this tome [borrowed in my case] - especially lingering over the Arthurian section. It made some kind of deep imprint on me - it's ridiculous how much I have forgotten over the years (about D&D, as well as everything else in life), but for some reason I STILL remember that Gawain has a +2 sword! The strange and ironic part is that Deities & Demigods never actually was employed in any of the campaigns I ever played in - and I didn't know anyone else who ever directly used the book either, even though most serious players had their own copy. It was just lurking in the background, providing this additional layer of richness that underpinned the entire fantasy world, also furnishing ideas and inspiration and fodder for daydreams. It was also my first exposure to Cthulu, Melnibone and Nowhen. Though it would be a good 15 years later before I actually read Lovecraft - and a lamentable 35 years before I got around to reading the others, the book nonetheless planted a seed, that though long dormant, was ready to sprout under the proper conditions (like a conditioning trigger implanted by a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother!). So for that, I am grateful.
I didn't get into Lovecraft until the 90s myself. Once I did I devoured him (pun intended). I'd already read all of L. Sprague DeCamp's Conan, and then realized it was Robert E Howard who created him.. and began there, inspired by the 80s movie of course. I only just recently got into Elric due to a brand new compilation series in three volumes that was released.
This book renewed my interest in Mythology when I was 13. Not just the Greek and Egyptian Gods we already knew, but Finnish, Sumerian, Japanese, Arthurian knights finally given stats (no Slavic Deities unfortunately), Babylonian. Just wow! I had the original when it first came out and it was this edition that introduced me to the Stormbringer series and Michael Moorcock. The Cthulhu mythos was just weird and I didn't get into THAT book spiral until I was much older (and I had already given my original books away), but that's a different story for another time.
Yeah. Shame about not having Slavic Deities. Baba Yaga is the only notable Slavic demigod I can recall that's been around since 1e, along with her hut.
@@WarhavenSC Castles and Crusades finally came out with one following the Celtic and Germanic Codex. Their hope is to do all the Mythologies from 1E.
Ditto for me finding all those pantheons fascinating as a teen and just taking it with a pinch of salt (given that they were adapted for a particular purpose).
The gods of the demi-humans was a great component.
Yeah it basically became canon for all of every version DnD even till this day
Definitely left a lasting legacy in D&D Lore.
This was the casual reading book of 1e. It was the only 1e book that had information "useful" away from the gaming table. It was the "hook" book. Regular folks would flip through it, recognize the characters & start becoming interested in AD&D. I never had a copy of Deites & Demigods, only Legends & Lore but I still loved it. Those Easley covers still capture my imagination to this day.
Playing Metamorphosis Alpha with Jim Ward next Friday at Gary Con and hoping to come home with my early print copy signed by him and Erol Otus.
Thank you for another trip down nostalgia lane!
I picked up my copy, along with Wilderness Survival Guide and 1st Ed AD&D PHB, from a Games Workshop store at the mall. They were unloading all of their 1st edition books for cheap to make room for more 2nd edition content. Mine just happened to be the 2nd edition printing that still included the extra deities. I didn't even know there was a difference between that one and later printings until I borrowed a friend's Deities and Demigods to look up Cthulhu real quick, and his book didn't have it.
At the time, I was more interested in the 1E PHB because it had GP values and stats for a couple bits of weapons and armor not included in the 2E PHB, as well as the assassin and monk classes. But in hindsight, I'm glad I picked up the Deities and Demigods when I did. The "144-pg" edition goes for a pretty penny nowadays.
Now you just need a copy of Avalon Hill's 'Outdoor Survival' and you're all set! (extra bonus points if you get the OD&D reference).
Great vid, Cap'n. About 20 years ago a good friend of mine showed me his copy of Deities & Demigods with the Cthulhu chapter & it blew my mind - up until then, I had NO idea such an edition existed.
Hmm... i just checked my copy & assumed it was the 3rd edition, since it doesn't have the Cthulhu & Melnibonean chapters; however, it has the Chaosium credit under the preface AND it says "15 pantheons" on the back cover. Curious!
I've got the third print with the thank you inside and it still says 17 covers. I imagine that must be a run between 3rd and 4th. Where they caught their mistake and changed the back covers towards the end of the run. TSR was famous for that sort of thing.
After Delicious in Dungeon. It’s no longer just if they give cthulhu stats, players will try to kill him. It’s now if we kill cthulhu could we eat him?
That'd be a LOT of calamari LOL
Apparently the copy I had was a later reprint as neither the Cthulu nor Melnonean mythologies were included
We used this as a Monster Manual for what was really the end game for my paladin. I was so overpowered there was little to challenge me so I appealed to my god to gate me into the realm of any enemy deity and face them down; the reward was to be a one point raise to an ability score. IIRC I took out several gods but failed against Sekola as I was not thrusting my vorpal blade, I was swinging it, underwater..
DM was frustrated after several kills and my being ever more OP so set me up vs Death the Nehwan god, he has something like a dozen strikes a round for an instakill, maybe hit me three times, but I blagged the DM that my amulet or periapt of proof vs death magic should protect me until the charges ran out. He agreed, but then the vorpal blade got lucky once again.
Other than that, titillating pictures inside for a young man.. Athena .. oh my 😮
EDIT Aphrodite not Athena
I use this book still to this very day on a fairly regular basis, even with 4e and 5e, which lends itself beautifully as long as you portray the dieties as Avatars. Good Stuff!
Remember seeing Blackrazor in White Plume Mountain and going "Wait on a second..." (begins furiously flipping through the Melnibonean section...Ha Ha!) Then again another joyous reaction when Blackrazor popped up in Baldur's Gate 2.
In 1986 I was broke. Since my friends and I were playing Steve Jackson games and making our own rules and games at that point, we sold much of our TSR stuff at auction at a game fair. I remember that paperback Gods, Demigods, and Heroes fetching good money despite it's horrible condition! It's a bittersweet memory.
I got this book not long before heading off to university and only playing a few times in the rest of the 1980s. But I did read it and find it useful for cleric dynamics. Captain hits it on the head in that it strays into the sort of stuff you might talk about after a came until everyone was out of steam and ready to go home.
I love Gary G... and honor his genius and his memory. But man, he could really pick'em when it came to business partners. It grieves me that so many great creative people had to suffer through all that. But you could smell it all the way from the University of Wisconsin.
One wonders what if TSR was run like a cottage industry with a strong cash position, and fewer products, fewer employees, and with skilled small business administration? Maybe focus on distribution from independent game and hobby stores and maybe direct mail order. Maybe run in a collaborative, kinder fashion? Maybe some one will make a game about how to do it successfully. ; )
Its stunning to believe how inept the business end of the game was in those days, but then again, the dystopian corporate world of today isn't much better.
Love all the captcorajus videos and listen to the D&D reviews all the time at work.....thanks for all you do
Thank you for this dive into Deities & Demi Gods, Captcorajus. It is the third UA-cam video I have watched on this subject as far as I remember. At the risk of coming from a guy who is no expert in this subject I think you did a very good job.
Lol, my players asked me to put their lv 20+ characters up against a god once. They were very disappointed when the fight didn't go like it would against a monster that just happened to have a lot of hp and abilities. Basically, hit-and-run tactics on warriors to whittle down their hp until I could finish one off with Power Word Kill, teleport non-spellcasters high into the air and drop them to their deaths, etc. They've never asked to fight a god again...
Run correctly a god could never be defeated by PCs. Now if the DM wants to dumb it down a bit and give the PCs a victory and bragging rights at the table, then go for it. But not only the teleport ability, but gating in creatures to fight FOR them, while still actively TPing here and there. If they DO take damage of any significance they just HEAL instantly. A god essentially has unlimited resources to draw upon.
The Elric of Melnibone section lead me to read all of Michael Moorcock’s books. The fantasy writing of that era was certainly very different than anything today…
Great video. Nice to see a link to Seth video.
Love these old school reviews. Thanks captcorajus!
Cap! Thanks for running with this one! Immediate LIKE.
I got rid of my AD&D books in early 90's college, but always wanted hardbound AD&D Deities & Demigods 1st edition as part of my current game collection.
Loved the art, specifically Jeff Dee's earlier clean lined drawings.
They're not actually terribly expensive- I just looked it up and you can find nice copies for $100-125.
@@mattl3729 I misspoke, actually have my copy. Thanks though!
On display!
I love all captcorajus videos, as a newer player and gm it’s fascinating learning the history of the game I love
Hey, great to know that newer players are also interested in this stuff. New or old players, we all love the game and the magic it brings with friends. Game on!
Bought this book in the early 80's and it was this book that triggered my mom. The satanic panic was making its rounds in the big churches. She burned it and all of my 1st edition AD&D books. My grandpa got wind of it and he lectured mom - grandpa was a pastor, a real fire and brimstone, Bible thrower who had a very deeply view on being a good Christian. He told mom that it was a game, not satin himself and that she'd got caught up in the TV preachers BS. Mom felt bad and helped me replace them, sadly they'd changed some of the covers. Still have them on my bookcase
I still have my original - much loved and great inspiration!
The depth and nuisance of this video is amazing, especially with the insights from Ward about IP rights and about Blume’s proclivity toward legal feints. Brilliant work, captcorajus !!
As a big Moorcock fan I was a bit surprised when I saw that Elric is classified as "Chaotic Evil" in this book. But after thinking about it for some time I understood the reason it is the things that you do that matters not what you think.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say.
My older god-brother had a first edition but by the time I was able to purchase it was Legends and Lore. As a huge Leiber and Moorcock fan, it was missing so much. Now first editions can go for $200-300 easily.
Oh my, this is gonna good!
Captain- I’ve got a 3rd printing from the mid 80s in my collection. I do have a pdf if the original first release with the Cthulu and Melnibeonean mythos. I love them and reference them a good bit for my campaign.
I treat the stat blocks within as those for the avatar of the deity when on a plane other than their home plane. Gods are capable of going anywhere in the multiverse but are somewhat diminished and infrequently leave their home planes unless a truly dire circumstance requires it.
Thanks for the information.
Damn! I've got the 3rd print with the Chaosium thank you and 17 Pantheon prints at the back but without the Cthlu gods.
yeah, me too! lol
Thanks for the review. Always love your videos and perspective.
I'm greatly looking forward to this one. I owned a copy of the original, before knowing it's value. Like an idiot though, I sold it on ebay several years later. Oh how I wish I still owned it, and not cause it's worth money, but because of all that it "is". If I ever get one again, I'll never sell it.
They're readily available- abebooks, etc. has them.
@@mattl3729 I'm not willing to pay a lot of money for them. They're worth quite a lot now.
What a great video -- thanks Capt.!
Ugh another regret of not keeping this book!! 😫 I had the one with Elric of Melnibone. 😫 thank you bring back the nostalgia!! 😊
I never got hold of the original edition, only the revised DDG without the Cthulhu and Melnibone myths content.
I certainly get Jim’s frustration - he went to all the trouble of due diligence only to have people (myself included) make the wrong assumption.
I've been fortunate to acquire 3 of these 1st editions. One is so nice and minty the book still crackles when opened. Oddly enough, I never purchased a hardback on EBAY - but must have over 100 modules and boxed sets. About half in original shrink.
Great book back in the day. Freya was my favourite.
Lent my 1st Ed. copy to a friend and never got it back. This bring back a lot of memories
Oh man, what a tragedy! Sorry for your loss!
I have that wonderful book beside me right now. Great review. Blessings
Good vid! Man, i remember getting that book when i was fifteen or so and reading it over and over. Lost it somehow somewhere but can still picture every picture. Side note (and forgive me if my memory fails) but always thought the god of Death in the Newhonian mythology was the toughest. 😉
Love that they included the Cthulhu stuff in the book although I must admit I get mixed up with the World of Greyhawk deities these days. I sold both years ago.
A new video, praise be!
Great video. Very thorough.
Central American Pantheon was my jam.
Thanks for the great history buff!
Thanks for the thumbs up from whomever and the heart from Captcorajus. Appreciated.
Owned the first printing when it was first published. Enjoyed the info and the artwork. Why wasn't the pantheon from Greyhawk included?
Love this book! Thanks Captain!
Oh, man, I only have the 2nd printing! Got it for Christmas in 1980.
Just spent $150 for a copy of the first edition. Will go into my collection and stay there forever.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't articles about the Demi-human deities like elves, dwarves gnomes and halflings first appear in separate issues of Dragon magazine, only to be compiled in Deities and Demigods at a later time? I seem to remember something about "Point of View" articles for each race that appeared in the same issues.
Yes! Much of what was published in Dragon Magazine ended up in Deities and Demigods.
Love all your videos! Was not aware of the sources of spells, ability, Demi-god, God direct at levels. How did I miss that? I got to reread my copy. You were kind calling them jerks!
Yeah, its these little tidbits that make the game interesting.
Well, to be fair, I didn't want to get demonetized. lol
Great video, and I agree with everything you said. The video wasn't as much as a look back either, more of an homage. ;)
Still enjoy reading over my Deities and Demigods with Cthulu and Melnibonian mythos.
The inside baseball from Tim Kask says Chaosium Inc only wanted them to be credited for their IPs. They never asked for money. Tim says that it was the Bloome brothers who refused on account that would be "advertising" a competitors games in a D&D book.
yes, I've watched the 'curmudgeon' quite a bit, and that's one of the sources I used to make this video.
Nice. Tim is a good guy. A true living treasure. One of the last OGs.
Love it!
Very cool- it's nice to know the real story.
i got the second printing book...with the banned stuff in it... for my 15th birthday!!!! it was so much fun to read, and it's a shame that the newer redacted versions of the game didn't have those things, because they got me into reading Elric series and later Lovecraft and Fafhrd & Mouser!!!! I also remember having it out when I watched Excalibur on HBO and used it as one of my sources to start research on a 10th grade english paper about Norse mythology, typed up on a typewriter!! :D ... I wonder, however, if a first level 5e character could kill some of these gods.
Great review and history. Bloom was the bad guy. I don't think adapting an authors mythos to a game is stealing. If it is it is also free advertising. Rob Kuntz asked my dad to help him with the Lovcraftian mythos so that chapter is mostly J E Holmes.
😊
Chris Holmes! Thanks for the comment. Man.. I wish I'd known before hand, I could have put that in the video. Very cool to know, and that totally makes sense.
Could you review The Sunless Citadel? It's my favorite 3.5 module. I'm wondering your thoughts.
still have my 1st printing version of this.
Great review of a great book.
I have one of these. Don't remember which printing, think it is the 3rd or 4th. Don't think it is one of the versions with any of the copyrighted stuff. I got it cheap around the late '90s or 2000.
I have the Nehwon version of this book. Lucky for me I have friends with the other versions that made copies of the parts I'm missing. lol
Please,would you do video of the music only . I am always happy to hear the music as I know I going to see great contents . I would and I am sure many other would love you to just about how you got in the playing rpg. I watch your videos and offer listen to them as I go to sleep. If you ever wondered why your “How to play DnD “ series number four where you Dm for Crystal has , so many hours watched . It me ! It has the best line EVER “ I was hoping for a bit of gold ,rather than a body part”
One of my favourite books from any edition 😏👍
13:16 how do you spell the name of that collectors site? There is no way I am going to figure that one out 🙂.
Yeah, its a bit weird. www.acaeum.com/
I had and still have the 1st printing volume of this. the story at the time due to the mix was that the first version was printed without permission to use Elric or Cthulhu but since they did further have lankmar they had that one- you've done the research-but yeah that was the thought at the time.
The big effect to me and others I'm sure was I was exposed to and went on to find the real book of Fafherd& the grey mouser, elric of melnebone and Cthulhu.- strong word of warning to NOT read Lovecraft for the first time when you live alone, in western new england, while living across the street from a cemetery/
I was unfortunate to get the edition without the original material when I bought mine in the early 80s. Oh well.
Giants had strength greater than 18 even in the DMG, I think
I can't imagine what Stafford did -- not suing Leiber -- happening these days. Corporate heads have no humanity anymore. (We should replace *them* with AI!) I got the original edition from a friend I started gaming with. It was supposed to be a loaner, but I kept it too long, and he never got it back. Sadly, I lost it along with most of my other stuff a few years ago. I loved it tho. It was great inspiration, the art was awesome, and the gods were so well-defined that we used them for our pc's deities. But we never really used the book beyond that.
Yes! Amazing, totally wouldn't happen today... but that was a different time in many ways. The value of intellectual property like the Cthulhu Mythos and Fritz Leiber just... wasn't considered like it is today either.
I have that cover, but my version doesn't have the Elric or Chthulhu stuff.
indicative in the stage of management.
I have an original printing that I found. Cover is in horrible condition but the pages are ok and I just wanted the material. I do love the cover to Legends and Lore. Manual of the Planes was 1987.
Thanks.
The monster manual for Kratos.
Embarrassingly, I let a few power-gamers kill off the odd lesser deity in my youth. My solution since then has been that game mechanics simply do not apply to a deity in its home plane. Having said that, I've never needed to resort to that ruling, because the motivation has never arisen since. I think we all just grew up a bit.
still have my original copy :)
You can find versions of it online with the banned stuff all cleaned up. Just saying for people who want it 😋 I have both versions. Also dragaon mags can be found online in archives for all to read and use its one if the first things that comes up when tou look. I got them abd recently love the anti paladin as a bad guy later on 😁
This was an awesome book!!!
You say that fighting the monsters and deities in this book was not encouraged, but the fact that they were all started out and ready for combat means that they were 100% encouraging you to fight these. 5:09
So you're saying if there are stats you must be expected to fight it????
@@captcorajus Yes. Why else would they give them hit points?
Lol.. okay dude.
@@captcorajus Good comeback. Can't answer the question, so you avoid it. Point proven. Thank you.
@@ishmiel21 What's your point exactly? You have a basic, surface level understanding of the game? "Ugh.. ugh.. hit points, stats, me kill"
Yes, I agree.
I became a Religious Studies major in college due to this book lol
"other such nonsense". You know, it's just a game, if people have fun slaying gods and replacing them then let them. I never understood the idea that it was "bad DMing" . I don't think the stats should have been removed from deities in later editions.
I do, and it is fun, but perhaps you missed the part where I said, "People just having a bit of fun at the gaming table" at 4:56, but we've all met 'that guy' who takes it a bit too serious, and can't wait to brag about it with serious reverence.
okay @@captcorajus
KNOLEDGE IN FAITH=CLERIC.
SORRY THAT HE PASßED AWAY.😢
I remember my friend and I took on the Gods out of Legends and Lore with our over powered, artifact wielding and multi armor suit wearing, characters. Fools! Your god-like armor classes are no match for our poor understanding of the rules!
Rad channel
Ugh. My mom sold mine.
Noooo!
DO IT AGAIN...
Giving gods stats was a really dumb idea
I don't think so. It ranks the god's powers versus each other. Its also fun, and at the end of the day, that's what the game is about.
But muh Satans!
The controversy came from TSR flat out stealing the intellectual properties of a bunch of authors and then getting threatened to be sued because of it. There was a controversy. Please don't revise history. TSR stole a bunch of ideas and put it in their own book without giving credit to the people who came up with those ideas.
False. Everyone involved in this book has verified what I posted. Sorry you can't manage to adjust your knowledge when presented with the facts.
@@captcorajus False. You are wrong. The book got pulled due to threats of legal actions based on TSR flat out stealing IP from people.
So I guess Sandy Peterson and Greg Stafford from Chaosim are wrong? James Ward is lying? Sorry, but the people who were THERE and in charge from both companies contradict your assertion. Update your information. Deities and Demigods was NEVER 'pulled'.
Ha- you shoot yourself in the foot and clearly destroy your credibility by using the word 'revise' like it's a negative. One should ALWAYS strive to correct misunderstandings and mistakes- and in this case, he's done a fantastic job of showing all of use the REAL truth and dispelling (no pun intended) the myths we've all heard for 40+ years. And just a bit of advice: if you intend to contradict someone who has referenced what he's saying, you ought to do the same. All you do is contradict- you don't provide any evidence for your claims at all. Might convince folks a little better if you did at least try dude.
@@captcorajus Ph yeah. I forgot that Sandy and Greg came up with all the deities in that book. Thanks for the reminder.
Well didnt TSR get into the " deity slaying" business with Queen of the Demonweb pits and fighting Lolth.
True!
CNOWLEDGE IN FAITH=TAO..(?E ?NON AGIR?) LA NON-ACTION. COMUNE A TAO TCHOUANG TSEU..