What Happened to the OTHER Creator of D&D?
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Dave Arneson is a very interesting man, and his story in "The Game Wizards" by Jon Peterson is incredible to read. Once again, I highly recommend the book for anyone who enjoys these types of stories.
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#dnd #ttrpg #dnd5e
Got a few things incorrect, Dave's game Blackmoor was a pre D&D game. He started with Chainmail as a base but quickly stopped using it in favor of his own rules which he called Blackmoor which were based on David Wesley's Braunsteins, which were Primordial Role Playing games. Gary heard about these Blackmoors and played one or more and was hooked. Dave gave him "roughly 18 pages of notes" in which Gary made the first rought drafts of "The Fantasy Game" which was later named, Dungeons and Dragons. The rest of the history, you got right. I have been a Dave Arneson in a few situations, I know how he felt.
Blackmoor was his personal campaign setting. Blackmoor was NOT a set of rules.
@@craigjones7343 Sort of. Combat rules for skirmish (1:1 scale) wargames were dime-a-dozen then and are still today. It was Blackmoor's setting that turned an evening's battle into a campaign that allowed players to invest in their characters. If you study the combat rules in OD&D and the Greyhawk and Blackmoor supplements you can see that the combat system is almost arbitrary.
@@craigjones7343 go watch Secrets of Blackmoor
Missing is the tension of watching Gary step away from D&D to poor more thought and creativity into Empire of the Petal Throne. It is never talked about but imagine you are working on D&D and the creator goes off to work on someone else's game. On top of that makes it into the finished product D&D only ever dreamed about at the time.
Actually youโve got the information incorrect. 1965 you have the Braunstein game. around 1969 Arneson and come across the idea of doing a medieval setting short Lee after his friend Dwayne Jenkins had done a western version. Chainmail had not come out yet. they were in the process of creating a set of rules for the lake Geneva gaming association that would center around a fictional medieval setting. The initial meeting was with Dave Arneson, heading up by Gary Gygax, and Bill Hoyt present. less than six months later you have the medieval combat roles get introduced. Dave was needing combat system for his medieval Braunstein game. as Dave was already working with fantasy elements, he kept pushing to get those introduced to when they finally published the rules again as Chainmail. but you gotta remember, Arnesen was already doing the role-playing before the war game element got re-introduced.
and your bellyaching about 18 pages is a heck of a lot more than the five pages let medieval combat had which was five pages. 18 pages is still a lot more than five. Most games at that time weโre may be a handful of pages.
When Dave finally handed over his manuscript, which we have copies of, it was a lot more than eight pages because by the time he was done editing what he had you had people like Rockford and Gail Gaylord having helped organize the information
"Dungeons and Dragons" was originally about a dungeon with a dragon in it. That was the Dungeon of Blackmoor.
Wrong. Tsr did not create adventures, modules, etc. tsr wanted dms to create their own dungeon and it was intended that players would take there characters and go from one dm dungeon to another dm dungeon. Blackmore did not come out until much later
โ@@craigjones7343 Not to insult your intelligence, but he means to say that Blackmoor was the first dungeon and it had a dragon in it, hence where the name Dungeons and Dragons came from. Dave's Blackmoor campaign was a precursor to D&D, only evolving when Gygax was introduced and began running his own games. Together they codified released this evolving game as Dungeons and Dragons
IIRC it was one of Gygaxโs kids who came up with the name
This just seems like a he said she said battle that will never get resolved
@@craigjones7343
Nice "well actually" vibes.
I'm sure reddit will sympathize.
Without Dave there wouldn't be fantasy Tabletop roleplaying games or Dungeons & Dragons.
Untrue. Chain mail predates arnison. The creation had already begun. Arnison helped collect and improve the rules, created more rules. Without Gygax there is no DnD or RPGs.
โ@@craigjones7343 Both were important in the current landscape of TTRPGs (good and bad) but there is 2 truths here:
1) RPGs would still exist in some form even without D&D. It wouldn't be the way we know it today, but a game were you play roles is a very intuitive idea for human's natural tendencies to tell stories.
2) Without Dave *and* Gygax, there wouldn't be D&D.
@@craigjones7343 Agreed! In this case it was two both Gygax and Arneson. I think the people that argue that it was only one of them, don't really understand D&D history, or are just taking sides (one way or the other). All you have to do is look at the names on the first three OD&D rules booklets. Doesn't just list Gygax, and doesn't just list Arneson it lists BOTH. They were BOTH the creators of D&D.
Dave Arneson was the Steve Wozniac to Gary Gygax's Steve Jobs.
Exactly
Ha, did Gygax also get shifted to a night shift because other engineers complained that he smelled as he never showered?
@@slaapliedje he was a visionary but not nearly as good at the nuts and bolts. Arneson had all the good ideas but wasn't interested in marketing. Turns out buying talent is more effective than being born with it.
@ardentdrops yeah, I was commenting on the comparison between the two Steves. Nolan Bushnell has told a story about how when Jobs worked at Atari, he told him there needed to be more engineers on the night shift, so moved him there. The truth was, there was no night shift, just the other engineers said he stunk, so he put him where no one else had to deal with him. Still makes me laugh.
@@slaapliedje He stunk literally though, he refused to shower. He was never an engineer or good at that. A genius he was though. Woz didn't create anything after ๏ฃฟ, Jobs was just getting warmed up.
Gygax tried to erase Arneson and failed.
Now, WotC is trying to erase them both. I suspect they'll fail too.
There was a video about that book posted on the D&D channel earlier today, your speculation is adressed there. ua-cam.com/video/PhxVlgehNpc/v-deo.html
I had Dave Arneson as an instructor back in 2004. His course was 'Rules of the Game' - but really he would talk about whatever he wanted to for lecture and then have us all play various board and card games as lab work. It was paired up with a particularly heavy and brutal course, so the lighthearted nature of his class was a welcome reprieve at the time. He seemed a pretty affable fellow. If I ever went to the local gaming store on the weekend during those days, there was a good chance to find him wargaming.
What you covered was pretty good and well presented but quite a few key details were glossed over or lost altogether. Arneson wasn't just some student, he was the central organizer of the MMSA and ran a huge Napoleonics campaign and published the newsletter. He also didn't have a "miniatures business" really (although gaming group memeber grEGG sCOT aka the Egg of Coot did and still does). Arneson hand made a few ship models and sold them for a little extra cash, but he also sold mimeographed rules. As for the kerfuffle with the award, the reason you can't find much about online is because it wasn't that big of a deal. Few people cared much if Arneson claimed a convention award and TSR didn't agree. Yes, industry people did talk about it for a hot second or two but most just shrugged and moved on. I'd also point out that you don't cover Arneson's game company (Adventure Games) , his 1980's work with TSR (the DA adventure series), or Different Worlds mag, or his later years as a college professor and his ZeitGeist games Blackmoor books in the 2000's. etc. etc. Oh and as an aside, its Guidon games not Gideon. (guidon as in the military flags) :)
Yeah, I recognized my mispronunciation right after upload! ๐ I attempted to reduce the number of outside facts for this video to keep it short, but I may do a "deep dive" later on for more specifics. ๐
Of greater concern from a professionalism perspective is the on screen content.
None of these images are provided with attribution as to creator, provenance, and creation date.
I started playing AD&D in the mid-80's, and the guys I played with knew that Arneson had been there early on, helping to create the game. I didn't know the full extent of it, but there's a lot of good info on yt about him now. David Megarry's got some really good videos about Arneson's original game that are worth seeing, too. Also, Arneson had a history of working on and creating games long before D&D that people should look into. And since it's all about the Daves today, look up David Wesely too. The truth is out there. You may, however, have to delve for it.
I met Arneson in the late 80's at a GenCon.
I miss Dave. I would have liked to have met him, but I wasn't tapped in to the community back then. I just read the modules at the library and read the novels.
I want to thank you for never asking us to "like" your video and "subscribe" to your channel. I just subscribed.
Agreed. The number of people who ask for likes and subscribes BEFORE watching a video always amuses me.
To me as a BECMI and Blackmoor player it;s always been Dave who has invented my favorite RPG, not Gary.
Preach!
I would like to thank the fans who did not let Dave Arneson be forgotten. This helped him in his fight with TSR. In contrast, Gary Kurtz and his major role in the creation of Star Wars have been forgotten.
I don't think he's been forgotten. Most people, I think will agree that it was BOTH Gygax and Arneson that created D&D. Took two to tango in this case.
In the early days of the hobby I met both Dave Arneson and E Gary Gygax. Arneson was one of the nicest guys I ever met in the industry. Gygax was the absolutely worst person I met in the industry. Gygax is the Bill Gates of roleplaying. He thrived on other peoples ideas and bought and sold them and eventually always put his name on their work. Gygax should never be considered beloved. Just like Bill Gates, he was a pirate and thru every kind of maneuver possible took and stole and looted and profited from others hard work. But that is just my opinion. What do I know. Chris
Yet, without him, I don't think there would have been a DnD. He was the person that organized and codified the system. But, what do I know. I was a teen when I met them both. As an adult I understand a little better where Gygax was coming from, but he was not fun to be around. Arneson on the other hand went out of his way to help those around him who were sincere about gaming.
Dave Arneson got done so dirty. Him and Dave Wesely are the true grandfathers of the hobby, the two Daves. Gary is the daddy but he disrespected his elders in trying to take so much credit. I respect that granddads!
Karma, that is why Gary got treated so poorly in the end.
There was a time when a lot of Europeans thought Mentzer was the creator. BECMI was translated in more languages and sold in more numbers than AD&D.
The history goes further back than what you are proposing. and Dave Arneson has more than just the University of Minnesota under his belt. he was one of the people who joined the MMSA in 1963 along with David Wesely. he was very much and enthusiast of war gaming even at that young age. He was controversial for his dip and dunk method of painting. Long story there. Needless to say he had some rather gruff interactions with some of the old-school wargamers. then in 1968 roughly December periodโฆ. Think it was the 18th. David Wesely did his Braunstein Game. Arnesen was definitely amongst many who were very enthused about it. then in 1969 he was one of the people who agreed to help form the lake Geneva gaming association. Which eventually did publish the medieval combat rules by Jeff Parren. that came out in the fifth edition of their Domesday book. that was the chain mail he used when he needed a combat table. But he had already started doing his dungeon delving by the time that finally came out
he has always quoted that he did the Chainmaile before the fantasy supplement was ready which he was actually a key person to push for. there were no other versions of Chainmaile that didnโt have the fantasy supplement other than that publication which he has directly stated came from that magazine when he references the original chain mail he used. others have kept injecting the notion that it was the printed version later and also forgetting that he had a lot to do with adopting the combat rules from that. Arnison was very well-versed in many different organ combat Mechanics because he had already done various medieval games. He liked those rules though. His players not so much. In fact thatโs why he had to drop it.
EGG of coot was a reference to Greg Scott not Gary Gygax. Thereโs a lot of information confirming that information. Be careful with muddying the water with that
I can get you a lot of information with the first documents if you need it. I believe John Peterson has access to the same information because we have discussed from time to time. Itโs an issue of interpretation that I question
anyway, I am one of those involved with John Kentner and Secrets of Blackmoor. Dave Arneson was a friend of mine. And I currently weekly game with David Wesely
Gygax was not immune to a bit of childish spite; here is his description of the Hill Giant Chief, *Nosnra* (read that name backwards) in the G1 module: "This chief, one Nosnra, is a grossly fat and thoroughly despicable creature, sly and vicious, loving ambush and backstabbing." ='[.]'=
I don't think there was a time when Arneson wasn't well known in the D&D world, at least not in my experience of over 40 years. And it was generally common knowledge that there were issues between him, Gygax, and TSR, and no one was completely faultless in it. We all knew Blackmoor, and Arneson's early contributions, but the exact details of the conflicts at the time were not widely publicized or cared about. I think it might be likely that today's meme culture feeds a "Tesla vs Edison" or "Stan Lee vs Jack Kirby" type of dynamic for some, and it is these people who hype up a "did you know...?" narrative where Arneson is some forgotten behind-the-scenes genius and Gygax is a publicity seeking bad guy.
Agreed -- there was no controversy. Gygax and Arneson are BOTH giants!! We all owe so much to them BOTH. I think people just try to make it like their falling out in the late 70s was a big deal -- it was just two people falling out and -- they did make up again - Gary asked Arneson to produce some adventures in the mid 80s and would have asked him to do more -- but Gygax got booted out of TSR by Lorraine Williams. I hear they actually got along pretty well in the end.
Egos... I will always love Dave and Gary for what they gave us.
Exactly! They are BOTH giants -- I am so thankful for what they did for all of us, and giving us such a wonderful game.
Let's see if Hasbro's upcoming book on the "history" of the creation of D&D mentions Dave Arneson much. Hopefully they will.
I wonder if they will also mention Empire of the Petal Throne, not D&D but not far and at roughly the same time.
I doubt theyโll mention Tรฉkumel at all, despite M.A.R. Barkerโs contribution to the hobby. His supposed political leanings have all but erased him from the history of the hobby at this point.
My hope is that Tรฉkumel and Empire of the Petal Throne have mentions and original documents in the book, but I also hope Hasbro has the foresight to add some sort of recognition of Barker's disavowment. Erasure would be wrong, and informed reading would be best.
@@TheDelver I don't think it will because this is a book on D&D. And Empire had little to do with the creation of D&D.
The book was an awesome read, i really enjoyed it. Good video, thanks!
I loved the video man, I am also making a video on Mr Arneson, I have already made a Braunstein by Dave Westley video which was a major part of what Blackmoor was.
Hell yeah! We need a lot more content on the TSR days and pre-Fifth Edition happenings.
You are what I imagine a younger Matt Colville was like!
I love the style of your show!
He was getting $100k in royalties until he died. If he had money when TSR started he could have done much better there. ~Brian
Friz Lang's film "Metropolis" of how Victorians saw coal furnaces as dragons in dungeons.
Seems like folks would rather pick a single hero and a pick their favorite narrative where only one side is right and one side is wrong. I admit the opinions I've held of Gygax and Arneson over the years are proven wrong when I learn more, and to learn more, I too highly recommend Peterson's Game Wizards.
Dave Arneson was one of the Big Ones. All the rest is not important. If it wasn't for him, we wouldn't have this.
Dave and Gary. Both Titans!
It's good that you're giving Dave Arneson some attention and *some* credit, but you've completely missed the fact that role-playing itself came out of Arneson's group, not Gygax's, specifically from the Braunstein games run by David Wesely. Arneson developed that style of proto-RPG into fantasy settings, where it began to resemble modern role-playing, and that's when Gygax became interested - seizing upon the idea and developing it further.
It's really hard to separate things out and give anyone full credit for creating D&D -- because Arneson leveraged Chainmail and Gygax leveraged Blackmoor. I really thing the fairest approach is to give them BOTH credit. They are both IMO Titans!
Thanks for sharing this.
Grognards love to crap on Hasbro and WoTC (yes, they are valid), but they seem to forget about this and other shenanigans under Gygax and TSR, Thanks for bringing this up.
I think the main reason they do though is because D&D has become wussified. It plays more like a super hero game than one where your characters are in any actual danger. Granted, I have never been fond of the "roll good or die" mechanic a lot of older modules used, I also think the dark and evil vs heroic style of adventures were just better back then.
@@slaapliedje you do realize you are talking about a fantasy game and mythology based game, right? Guess where all of them unkillable or hard to kill superheroes comes from? And even then, the game rules give you options to curtail that and make the player characters not-so unkillable.
Also, times change and the dark and evil style is not as interesting or challenging as shades of gray.
Youโre certainly entitled to your opinion, but your initial point lacks an actual basis for it. Have a great day!
@talldarkstrangerpr I am not saying that is what I think, but the 'grognards' sorry if I may have triggered anything. 5e breaks doen (from what I have heard) after about 10th level because the developers didn't design it to scale well enough. That is the biggest complaint about it. I haven't played more than a few sessions, and found it boring. The combat was enough to make me sleepy. I prefer a bit more grit to fights, which is why I have been a fan of GUPRS for many decades.
@@slaapliedje Now youโre basing your arguments on hearsay (10th level PCโs and โwhat grognards sayโ). Hardly the basis of a good argument. Combat may be a drag, and thatโs why I keep my games to 5 peeps at most, but that can be fixed with homebrewimg and again, the rules allow you for more gritty combat. GURPS is good for you? Great! GURP away! Work with whatโs best for you and your table. I like 5th Edition and been playing D&D since the basic set. Games change and evolve with the times. You can embrace it or leave to your own little niche. Good luck!
@talldarkstrangerpr Yes, since you can do whatever style you want. Hell, it has rules for playing a silly campaign if you so desired. Or you can play Dark Fantasy, or you can do greek demigods, etc. It isn't as complicated as people make it out to be, and definitely makes it so you can build a character as detailed as you want. One of my biggest complaints about AD&D 2e back in the day was that characters were way too generic, and the only thing to make one fighter different than another was the stats and equipment.
For some reason I absolutely donโt believe Gary Gygax. This whole story really paints the dude as a giant fucking asshole. Iโm sure both sides kinda sucked but holy shit.
really cool video
This game is the story we make up together. Fighting over it is the core of the insanity that drives us on.
Egg = E. Gary Gygax. His initials.
Egg of COOT = Gregg Scott. From long before and having nothing to do with Gygax.
A bad one, as it turned out.
Human Nature. It never changes, does it.
no controversy arneston was just too much of a real one
He with the best lawyers wins. .
D&D was based in Blackmore and was Dave and his friends' idea; however, Gary did the work to write down, publish, and market the product. So I feel that both men deserve the title of co-creator.
The whole story is skewed to put Arneson on the defendant's chair. He's the one that put "role" in "role-playing games", so consider that.
A friend of mine used to be his next door neighbor when little
Fantastic storytelling. Itโs amazing to consider losing 10% D&D royalties forever over a $40 payroll dispute.
From my point of view the "other" creator is Gygax, Dave was the true innovator.
so Gary is a wage thief is this documented from another source? or is it just "he said - he said"
Do you have licensing agreements for all the images you are using in this video.
You do not provide on screen citations for any of the images you use.
Some of what you are using appears to be taken from the documentary film, Secrets of Blackmoor.
Apologies, but I have not seen a documentary called "Secrets of Blackmoor." The content in this video is comprised of online sources, but I can answer any questions you may have at the email listed on the channel. ๐
Well, if either one would have paid attention to a 16 year old I could have brought it all back together. TSR was a shtshow. Rules are there to guide the game, not control it. The Storyteller is there to entertain, not punish. If the players wanted to take things a different way then I would work with that and steer it towards fun. Just ignorant greedy people being exactly that. Btw I was totally against 'magic bags'. If you can't carry it you can't have it.
Dungeons and Dragons has ALWAYS been a focal point for tremendous amounts of scandal for a variety of reasons.
Sounds like Arneson was a big baby. Gygax was no better as his pettiness regarding working conditions showed.
Neither of these guys are particularly good people it sounds like.
If you donโt know who Dave arneson is you canโt read because every product produced has his name along with Gygax as the creator of D&D
Exactly!!! Great point! Yes, I just checked a few a few old rule books, 1ed, 2ed, 3ed, and 5ed -- and most of the rule books include a Thanks section that explicitly calls out Arneson and Gygax as the creators of D&D, or they commonly say something like this: "Based on the original Dungeons & Dragons rules created by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson". So yeah -- Dave's name is all over the place as one of the two creators of D&D. No one - is trying to take that way.
This is a not uncommon industry startup situation. Dave wanted royalties for his ideas but he did not want to work a 9-to-5 job. He was inherently lazy and spoiled. The working rules Gygax created for TSR are standard company policy: you canโt just go โwork from homeโ whenever you feel like it, and clearly Gygax thought Arneson wasnโt working at home, he was bunking off, which was likely true. Meanwhile Gygax had to do everything, deal with everything, in a new company. Basically, Arneson and Gygax made an agreement with different expectations: Gygax thought they would work together to build TSR, Arneson thought he would just collect a paycheck and a co-creator credit.
Modern accounts of the story are very biased against Gygax, I think because there are far more Arneson-like people now: anti-corporate, want to be paid without the expectation of making an effort. Gygax had non-unreasonable expectations for the co-creator of a company, and his rules were so obvious that most companies donโt even need to state them: show up to work or donโt get paid. Some of his later actions seem mean-spirited but they also make sense. He was in a legally binding contract to pay a share of profits to a guy who didnโt want to work. Arneson was effectively leeching off TSR. Sure, he deserved co-creator royalties, but why does he deserve an equal split when he contributes nothing?
The problems all stem from a poorly defined partnership agreement. However, any impartial review would note that Arneson was the first to not follow the spirit of the agreement. They both felt betrayed by each other, but in terms of who had reasonable expectations for the time, and who cast the first stone, itโs clearly Gygax and Arneson respectively.
Yes, great summary!! Yes, basically just two guys that didn't get along working together. Media and other people try to make it much more than it really is, but in the end -- your basic two people falling out story. Wanted to add in the mid 1980s Gygax did hire Dave to produce adventures before Gygax got booted out of TSR by Lorraine Williams, and I heard that they were on good terms in the 2000s. People I think forget that they made up before they both passed away.
@@quantus5875 KODT was the best at documenting all this nonsense. Part of who gamers are.
@@DrCruel Thanks! I'll have to take a look at that one, have not seen it. Jon Peterson, Playing at the World -- takes a great "neutral" view of the Gygaz/Arneson relationship in his book, Playing at the World. Yes, you have to be a little careful at looking at biased views from either the pro-Arneson camp or the pro-Gygax camp. My view is taking sides is nonsense -- and who even cares? -- Gygax and Arneson both make incredible contributions to the hobby, spending a lot of time analyzing their relationship is just a waste of time.
In my opinion if you do not know who Dave Arneson, you are not a real fan of DnD.
Yeah -- how could you not know who Dave Arneson is if you've played D&D for more than a minute. His name and Gary's are clearly labeled on the OD&D rule books -- no one is trying to take that away from Dave. They both created D&D.
โ@@quantus5875 did you see the documentary on his campaign, "Return to Blackmore"? I thought it was pretty good.
@@oldSchoolGM Yes, great video! It is a little biased towards the pro-Arneson (anti-Gygax) view -- where my view will always be Gygax and Arneson BOTH created D&D. They are both Greats! D&D would not have existed without either of them. So other than a little bias -- awesome video! Everyone who is interested in the history of D&D should watch that video. Btw: Sources with less bias are the book Playing at the World by Jon Peterson, Shannon Applecline's fantastic Designers & Dragons series, and countless books on the beginning of TTRPGs like Of Dice and Men and Empire of the Imagination.