'Shiny, Happy People': The Real Problems with Duggar Theology | Ep 824
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- Опубліковано 8 тра 2024
- Today we're talking all about the Amazon Prime documentary "Shiny, Happy People," which focuses on the Duggar family and the greater theology behind their beliefs (Bill Gothard's Institute in Basic Life Principles). The IBLP and Gothard have been accused of legalism, double standards, and abuse within their doctrine. We start off with some issues the documentary presents as big problems within Duggar/IBLP theology, which include wives submitting to husbands, gender roles, and modesty, among others. We also share the problems we see with their theology, but discuss how many things like submission and gender roles themselves are actually biblical - the IBLP has just misconstrued, misinterpreted, and misapplied these Biblical commands to create a legalistic, graceless, gospel-less framework that oppresses and represses its adherents rather than setting them free. We share some of the shocking revelations from the documentary series and explain the frustrating angle the filmmakers took in conflating IBLP and fundamentalism with true gospel principles and beliefs.
#news #politics #culture #religion #christian #christianity #theology #amazon #alliebethstuckey #relatablepodcast #conservative #blazetv
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Timecodes:
(00:00) Intro
(01:19) Father's Day
(13:20) Breakdown of IBLP beliefs
(16:50) Duggar doc intro
(21:20) Problems with Duggar/IBLP theology from documentary perspective
(23:37) Problems with Duggar/IBLP theology from biblical perspective
(45:11) Josh Duggar's sentence & Du
(48:46) Credibility & criticisms of the doc
(57:29) "World domination" & children as arrows
(01:02:13) Differentiation of fundamentalism & true Christianity
(01:06:21) Interesting parts from the documentary
(01:12:11) C.S. Lewis quote
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Relevant Episodes:
Ep 745 | Life as a Duggar & Letting Go of Legalism | Guest: Jinger Duggar Vuolo • Leaving Bill Gothard’s...
Ep 777 | On Duggar Theology, Josh’s Arrest, & Media Lies | Guests: Jinger Duggar Vuolo & Jeremy Vuolo
• On Duggar Theology, Jo...
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'Shiny, Happy People': The Real Problems with Duggar Theology | Ep 824
I remember how when I was in college Bill Gothard's teachings were EVERYWHERE. When I raised questions about his treatment of women, I was questioning God in my friend's eyes, and they called me a "carnal Christian". Now after 50 years I feel VINDICATED.
That’s a long time to be vindicated. 😢
Yes, his teachings and influence is everywhere. Even my ex-mother in law, who was never part of Bill Gothard ministry, believed some similar things. The main one I remember her saying she thought any beat or drums was wrong even in Christian music. There was no talking sense to her about that. 🤦♀️
Creepy. In CA my family understand Christianity. I was told we were "Catholic -Christian" (Catholics don't follow the Bible directly). We also practiced Buddhism, Hinduism, wiccian magics ... It was the epitome of "so open minded your brain falls out".
The Dugars were a cautionary tale about "born-again" Christians (a common insult in my home). I am so grateful as a young adult my husband accepted Christ and I did truly as well for the first time and we were reborn. ❤ Definitely not into crazies like the Dugars lol 🤣🤣🤣
My parents fell into this cult when I was about ten. My dad, a good man and a pastor, never really followed it, but my mom was all in. Since she was more dominant (oh, the irony), she got her way and they paid for the whole worldview weekend thing, and some camps...
Me being a skeptical person by nature, I called out anything I didn't see as Biblical, and my mother beat the shit out of me. She was extremely violent, even to my dad, and somehow this teaching was a way for her to both manipulate my dad, deceive those around is into thinking she was a saint, and justify the physical abuse and bruises that her children received if we so much as opened our mouth without permission.
I am glad there were discerning adults who stood strong. But for those children who defied insanity, it was living hell. Thank God I don't allow this to become my identity. I am the Lords first and foremost, saved by his miraculous grace, and thankful that I knew to distinguish between my mothers hypocrisy and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Far too many of us IBLP survivors have rejected Christ outright, and THAT is the tragic legacy of Bill Gothard.
I went to classes and a conference but I questioned the fact men weren’t taught how to be a good husband and father. I never followed it.
Im so sorry that took 50yrs. You were vindicated by God’s Word from the beginning! ❤
As someone who was homeschooled, I found their depiction extremely offensive. I was homeschooled until 10th grade when I switched to public school. I was SOOO far ahead of everyone else. I had no problem making friends (not a weirdo as the girl in the documentary makes us homeschoolers out to be). Now that I’m a mother, I plan to homeschool my own kids.
You were homeschooled using the same curriculum the show is critiquing ?
@@SarahMcElroy-xc1tt Oh no! Definitely not the same! I was never a part of IBLP and had never even heard of it until watching the docuseries. I had an actual education!
@@meganhornberger9386 I was homeschooled, and can attest to homeschoolers usually being ahead. How did you feel it was a critique of all homeschooling? I didn't get that feeling but maybe I missed something. l generally felt like it was critiquing the specific program Gothard put together, and the cultish nature of that whole community. It also emphasized how far behind women's education was in that community specifically because of his curriculum and other cultish teachings.
@@SarahMcElroy-xc1ttIf I recall correctly, in the docuseries one woman said that she could easily pick out homeschooled children from others. It sounded as if it were a negative thing, just from the tone.
Ati curriculum was an add on Not a sole source. Most used Abekah , Bob jones or Switched on schoolhouse for curriculum.
I vote for Relatabelles
Just about to write that! Perfect!
Even though I'm a guy "RelataBro"...I concur (*if I even get a vote for this one)... but maybe spelled "RelataBelles" with the B captitalized?
Oh, yeah!! I get it now that I see it written. When she said the word, I wasn't a fan, but now it makes sense... I like it!
I concur 🎉
@@damama-gc2nm😊😊😊😊😊😅😊😅😅😅😅😅😊😊
The Duggars(Parents/Josh) absolutely deserved to be called out.... but there was definitely a hidden agenda in this series to equate the sins of the Duggars with Christianity as a whole.
100%.
🎯
Unfortunately there are ALWAYS hidden agendas against traditional Christianity in these documentaries these days. They love to take the extremes or the fringe or even the giant scandals to harp against the most innocuous things about Christianity bc to the godless world, it’s all offensive.
@Raya-ir4tm I didn't lump Christianity as a whole into this, the documentary did.....
It was so irritating that they did this. They could have had a theologian who refuted the IBL claims to the Bible. Instead they featured people who were either traumatized by the cult or people who had contempt for Christianity. Definitely an agenda behind how they chose to share information. People after watching the documentary will equate Christian's with a cult of oppression.
Jill and Amy made a mistake by working with non-Christians to explain this sect of Christians. Jinger was wiser to do her book and have control of the narrative.
But how do you know they are non-Christian?
Also, Amy doesn’t and shouldn’t count she was an outsider looking in.
Yes unfortunately she is repeating the mistake her father made by allowing the media in their lives. The media is NOT our friend.
I don't see where she stated Any was an outsider and it takes a few min study to find the creators of the documentary are not Christian.
@@janettorres641 watch the documentary in its entirety. Then you’ll know.
@@janettorres641 First, the I BLP twists the word of God to keep control of their Cult!! Secondly, they believe Gothards interpretation of the Bible!! They worship Gothard and NOT GOD!!! God is TRUTH!! Gothard represents, spews nothing but lies and deception!!
Having grown up in a ATI/IBLP culture and having spent time in multiple training centers, the hugely harmful teaching that I learned from them is that men are to be respected/obeyed/honored because they’re superior. It was an incredible lightbulb moment for me when I listened to Alistair Begg and he said that men are to be the leaders because that’s God’s order of things - not because they’re inherently better or more valuable than women.
He never taught that men were superior. If that's what you took from it, you weren't listening.
It doesn't matter that Christians teach that men and women have equal worth. In submission, a husband can still make all of his wife's decisions for her. He can still tell her she can't wear pants, she can't work, she can't study and she can't use contraception, so that has the same effect on women even though the man is not superior to the woman.
Men are not called to be "king" and his wife & children his obedient servants. Men are called to be Christ-like servant leaders, dying to self, and leading their family from a place of love and making decisions for the common good of family and community. Husband are never called to demand obedience or enforce obedience at all cost from his wife. A wife is called to obey by her own free will. It is her gift of love to give to her husband. A husband demanding obedience is unbiblical. A husband mistreating his wife in anyway is unbiblical.
@@triumphantsoul9075A husband has NO biblical right to "make" his wife's decisions. She makes all her decisions, including her decision to submit. It is not something to demand. Go back and careful, prayful read your Bible. Even God Himself doesn't "make" our decisions. Yet you claim a husband has a right to do so.
@@guest_5992That doesn't mean that this happens. There is so much abuse within fundamental Christianity and other religions. A women having to submit a man is archaic and in the modern day men and women should be partners in relationships.
Yep, they Definitely portrayed all Christians believing the IBLP and that ALL homeschoolers are being taught that way. They are WAY of based and we should be on alert and be paying attention to make sure that our homeschool laws remain strong and intact.
Agree 100%!! We homeschool and are Christian, yet we are nothing like what they portrayed. My husband is Native American and I come from Mexican migrant farm working parents. I was so bothered by the way they bunched Christian homeschoolers with these people.
❤❤❤❤ off-base * and so true. I didn't think of how they might use this type of extremist rhetoric to dissuade people from supporting and defending homeschool. 😢
People who understand the history of public school and even private school can see that homeschool is ideal in most cases ... Especially for those that claim they can't afford private. Homeschool is not as expensive in my experience, though it takes time, energy, EFFORT. But most could afford that as well I think. ❤
😊😊😊
I didn't get that impression. They didn't talk about homeschoolers that were outside of the IBLP at all because that wasn't the topic of the documentary.
I was very upset with the way that they portrayed homeschoolers. They acted like all homeschoolers are conservative, and all are doing it to hide from the government control. I live in Massachusetts, more than half of the homeschoolers in my state are far left Liberals. They don’t want the state, controlling what they teach their children anymore than I want the state, controlling what I teach my child as a conservative Christian
63-year-old Christian man here. I watch the show and appreciate the fact that you cover topics the mainstream media ignores. Not a lot of Christian-based content on UA-cam or anywhere, for that matter.
Fundamentalist means take the Bible literally! That is me and I am proud of it. I was raised nothing like the Duggars but 100 percent believe God’s word and I am proud of that fact! Thank you Jesus!
The term has been hijacked to mean much more than that. For example, most self identified fundamentalists only allow the reading of the King James version of the Bible.
@@carolbarlow8896I think we as Christians understand that but as far as the world goes, “Fundamentalist” is simply a pejorative that means “someone who actually believes in Jesus and tries to follow His teachings as found in scripture.” A colleague of mine recently said something derogatory about “fundies,” thinking that I, in my jeans and concert T-shirt, would agree, and when I just laughed and said that actually, I am a “fundie” as well, she closed her mouth pretty quickly. It’s one way to help the world understand that when I say I am a Christian, it means more than simply “not Jewish.”
you take the bible literally? so that means you're racist.... gross
@@carolbarlow8896 I’m really am curious. As someone who is a KJV only person, how do people who use other versions believe that the Bible is infallible or inerrant? I ask because from what I understand these newer versions are constantly being updated. I hope I do not sound arrogant, I am truly curious and would love to hear anyone’s opinion/answer to this.
@cynthiaramsey0819 , the point is, even the KJV is a translation, just like any other translation. The newer translations are often considered even more accurate since more older manuscripts have been discovered over the years to assist the newer translators.
After watching the documentary I felt like something was “off” and I couldn’t put words to it, but you JUST DID!!! Thank you! Thank you for explaining it through a biblical lens!!
Being a Fundamentalist to me means adhering to the fundamentals of the Christian faith. I became a devout Christian 2 1/2 years ago and it's sad to see how the term has been corrupted to mean extremist cult. This is just like the corruption of the word gay and the rainbow. I'm happy to be a fundamentalist.
I've thought about this too and I agree! They throw it around like an insult but it really isn't...
Yup. Absolutely agree here. But just to give some context as to WHY it’s being used to mean extremist cult: Cults usually stem from the fundamentals of the religious sects they branch off from. The FLDS believes they strictly adhere to Joseph Smith’s teachings even more so than the current LDS, and it devolves into the only logical conclusion of such teachings: human rights atrocities. IBLP is a sect that claims to be Christian (like Mormonism and JWs) but is in no way fundamentalist except to the teachings of Bill Gothard himself, bc we know it’s certainly not to Scripture. It’s not Christian fundamentalism, but it is Gothard fundamentalism. Amazing how these organizations can claim to be Christian and it actually sticks. Especially when their founders ALL claimed to be God or a god or God’s special prophet at some point. 🤦🏻♀️ Just completely contrary to Christianity.
Respectfully disagree. The problematic issue w all scriptures whether Christian or otherwise is that it's *subject to* interpretation. Often the most zealous fundamentalists are only taking their scriptures the most seriously, or perhaps literally.
@@herewegokids7 Christianity isn’t subject to interpretation outside of how Scripture was interpreted by the first century Church (those who received the teachings first-hand). We have a significant amount of evidence of what that Christianity looked like, we also have the epistles where the Apostles righted the ship of any Church that was too lax or too legalistic. We have the epistles and the book of Acts laying legalism out for us clearly. There’s no further interpretation to be done except for the one a person imposes upon it. Over emphasis of a doctrine that puts limitations on a Christian other than that which is clearly laid out in Scripture is purely legalism. Over emphasis on any doctrine within the Bible other than the gospel of Jesus Christ is what gets us denominations, not cults. Inclusion of emphasis on extra-biblical doctrines is what makes a cult. There is no room in true Christianity for claiming you lose your salvation for not perfectly adhering to doctrine, nor is there room for extra-biblical doctrine. Neither of those things is actual Christian fundamentalism.
@@melindamercier6811 came to say what you already said.
I really didn't like the conflation of Christians who believe the Bible with Gothardism. But at the same time I am so glad that this stuff is being called out, it is about time somebody called out Gothards and the Pearls, and yeah the Duggers too - they have hurt so many people. Jesus said to expect the world to hate us, and He called woes on the Pharisees....
@@jessicably3 yes I watched it and they seemed sweet. I have absolutely no use for covering up sexual abuse, that is not just a small little thing....
@@jessicably3 "Did you ever watch the actual show about the Duggars? I feel like people demonize them when they don't actually see them in front of them living their life." You mean their reality tv show, carefully crafted to present you with a particular version of themselves? While it is an undeniable fact that they've done terrible things that go way past 'we all sin because we're human', such as cover up CSA? Are you even hearing yourself? How gullible can you be...
@@jessicably3 Covering up CSA is not abusive? Making your daughters who were the victims of the CSA defend their abuser on television is not abusive? Making your children work for you for years while you pocket all the money is not abusive? Manipulating your daughter into being forced to having something as personal as the birth of her child broadcast on international television is not abusive?
Ok, if you don't believe the experiences of their very own daughter who lived through it (What does she know right? You watched a reality show and read editorialized books!), let's look purely at the show and how they chose to represent themselves: Having so many children that you're simply incapable of caring for them both physically and emotionally is not abusive? Attempting to solve that by turning your very young daughters into surrogate child-mothers is not abusive? Displaying your children on international television for years on end while your views on television are so negative that you do not allow one in your home is not abusive?
You brought up some really good points, Allie. Refreshing considering all the bad takes I’ve been seeing, even among some Christians. Appreciate the shoutout😊
I like when she says relata-gals. I think because I see “gal” as kind of a friendly term, similar to “bro.” my mom and grandma used to call each other “gal” as a term of endearment.
This is why this documentary infuriated me because they painted ALL of evangelical Christianity under the umbrella of the IBLP…
My dad was a pastor and we attended the Bill Gothard seminars a couple of times, but my parents never got crazy with it. We took from it the principles that were biblical and pretty much ignored the rest.
It seems that you were blessed with parents who were good Bereans!
So appreciate your comment…my parents took me to a bill got hard seminar that was presented at a church where the senior pastor was a fan…but my parents took some of the good info and tossed the rest…my parents had previously attended a gothard seminar and yet never raised me by those principles…now that senior pastor is admitting that he wishes he wasn’t as strict with his kids…anyway…just saying that you can hear a preaching philosophy and not get pulled into the worship of a person or a set of beliefs…it always comes down to allowing people to be accountable to god alone and not condemn people for different groups beliefs.
@@whowhatwherewhy1434 Exactly. I think it's so important to be discerning and test what you hear against God's Word. Sounds like your parents did just that!
Same here! (Dad wasn't a pastor but parents were really balanced and weren't trying to control us. Very grace-filled and teaching us to look to and follow Christ, not them.)
I d also like to add to my prior comment…just watched an interview with one of the daughters on alysa Childers channel…really good…but I was thinking how you really have to be careful when discerning truth fr9m error…just because gothard preached something doesn’t mean we throw it out as unbiblical…for example, I have heard some Mormons or Catholics who state some of their beliefs and practices…and those particular things are biblical…we can’t just toss it aside just because there rest of their beliefs or practices are unbiblical….personally, I never was impressed with the idea of the duggers on national tv…I am acquainted with a pastor who raved about them and talked about how they had a great testimony…he was a gothard fan…I didn’t know who they were at the time but thought it was not wise to subject their family to public scrutiny…anyway, glad I stuck with my gut feeling … but I feel sorry for anyone who has been greatly influenced by someone they put their faith in…another example is people like Ravi Zeachariah…the damage that prominent people like that do to the gospel is tragic.
Thank you for speaking so articulately about this. While I’m glad evil is being exposed, I feel the documentary itself is propagating evil. I feel so bad for Jill. Watching her segments broke my heart. The makers of this documentary obviously don’t care for her or any of the actual victims, but rather, pushing forward their own self-serving agenda. As if they’re better than the people they decry. And the Fundie Friday lady? Seriously? The “experts” they interviewed are laughable. Hopefully they read Jinger’s book as it was a great insight into the teachings and contrasts them to biblical truth.
That fundiefriday lady is just bitter and hateful. There is not one thing appealing about her.
Agree 💯. The experts were Godless people who are miserable.
Jinger’s book is awesome!!
Jinger's book was SO good! I really liked her approach too. That girl loves Jesus ❤️
Agree. Just finished watching the documentary and found this video.
I wish they had asked Jill and Derek more gospel questions to differentiate Bill Gothard’s teaching to the true Biblical Jesus and what they believe now.
Oh my goodness!! The whole time I was watching Shiny Happy People I was thinking, I can’t wait to hear what Allie thinks about this!! I laughed out loud the moment I saw one of the “experts” that they were interviewing was a Gender Studies professor. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this! I totally agree with you, Allie and Bree!!
Glad I wasn't the only one that saw that! After seeing that she lost all credibility as an "expert"
“submitting to ONE ANOTHER out of reverence for Christ.” Ephesians 5:21
Why does this verse seem to always be ignored or minimized?!
As someone who grew up in a broken home with drug and alcohol abuse I have to say that the Duggar show was a breath of fresh air for me as an adult. I’m saddened to hear a lot of the hidden agenda behind it and all that’s come from it. I still watch The Bates family everyday but both families are so different even though they have the same values.
Might be the most balanced take on this documentary I've seen.. and I've seen a few. Allie , you come into your own with these response videos!
Thanks for your kind words! I enjoy doing them
Thank you for speaking out about this and for defending not only yourselves but those of us who have similar beliefs.
My mum and her family grew up in the very beginnings of that movement. My mum was already in college when her mum went full in on the Bill Gothard stuff. Unfortunately, most of my uncles grew up in that, basically a cult. A lot of them don't hold to those beliefs anymore but there are still after effects that follow them to this day sadly.
I grew up homeschooled and in a Christian home, going to church, doing all those things. However, my mum never ever touched that Gothard stuff with a 10 foot pole. She knew the horrible things about it and the organization and had had some experiences with it. My experience being homeschooled was the most wonderful thing ever!
I loved being taught by my mum, learning at home, and having my faith interwoven into my learning. I am so thankful that I was protected from the things happening and taught in public schools. I had and still have many friends who grew up homeschooled in homes and lives very similar to mine.
I graduated homeschooled in high school and just graduated college a few weeks ago with my BS in Secondary Education. I plan to be a teacher just like my mum was before and after she had kids. I even plan to homeschool my kids someday in the future, all because of the amazing experience I had from my mum and others around me.
Thank you for making that video and standing up for all of us out here who had a "normal" experience and life being Christian and homeschooled. 😁❤️
Bill Gothard - classic Pharisee. Laying out rules for other people to follow that he himself did not adhere to. Rules and regulations that God never prescribed.
There are certainly no shortage of these people. The appeal of original sin “you shall be like god” remains. Numerous Christians seem to feed on telling others how to live. Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit that needs to teach us all from His Word. Sometimes I will get His will wrong; other times it might be one of my Christian family members who gets it wrong. May we all be gracious.
He wasn't married and didn't have kids either. Just made it up with no experience whatsoever...
And Bill Gothard groomed many under aged girls in his ministry and had sexual relationships with them. he was a sexual predator.
I was thinking the same thing. It gives Pharisee
Re: comment; absolutely correct on this one! Thank you for your comment which is 💯% 👍🙏
It was a very smart call on Jinger’s part to not partake in the documentary.
An hour and 20 minute episode for my hour long commute! Perfect start to my Tuesday tomorrow! I've been listening to you for a few months Ally and while we don't agree on everything theologically I appreciate your heart and your faith in God!
On the point about submission, the difference between biblical and IBLP teachings is not just leaving out the husband’s responsibility. The problem is that Gothard taught more of a universal principle of women-submit-to-men which is not the scriptural doctrine. “Wives, be subject to *your own husbands*, as to the Lord.” Ephesians 5:22 (emphasis added).
5 stars definitely! Been watching you on and off since 2017, Trump presidency. I am almost 73 and always loved being a homemaker/fall-time Mum. # kids but homeschooled our youngest son. We both loved it and chose our own Curriculum/books from various suppliers. I am amazed how much you do with 2 very young kids and third on the way! God bless you!
I also wanted to say thanks to your producer giving her parents story/ experience of attending a conference.
J. Vernon McGee is a great example of what REAL Fundamentalism is. That’s the sort of preaching I was raised on, but I did know other homeschoolers who did practice ATI and followed Gothard’s teachings. We felt so bad for those kids because they really weren’t allowed to do much of anything with the rest of us in the homeschool group (which seemed to defeat the purpose to me).
Thats a good point with Mcgee. Then you have the guys throwing NIV's against the wall, thats a different story.
@@coltonsnook5360 yes, true biblical expository teaching.
I watched the Duggars back in the day and just watched Shiny Happy. Something just didn't sit right with me concerning the docuseries...like it was a only a breath from calling all Christians extremists.
Edited to add: Thank you, Allie, for your analysis and you're right! Jim Bob exploited his children without their consent!
I totally agree. It is setting us up as Christians to force us to conform to the world.
I’m Jewish and I didn’t get that impression at all. It was very clear to me that Gothard is a predator and his entire system was built to facilitate the abuse of women and children. It only seemed to be loosely based on Christianity. He obviously takes things out of context to serve his own agenda.
TRUE CHRISTIANS should NOT take offense because, they do NOT BELIEVE any of the garbage the IBLP are teaching!! They don’t follow MAN, they FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST!!
I honestly don’t know what’s worse having a misguided father guiding the family or fatherlessness both lead to so much dysfunction it’s heartbreaking
@@amandagerasapolous how was who misguided? I’m not referencing anyone in specific I’m talking in general
Misguided is worse
On a macro level, statistics show the damage of fatherlessness. I'd question some other factors playing into that also such as poverty, addiction, etc. There are however, many, MANY stories of a dysfunctional, misguided or abusive father in the home and you can't help but wonder if it would be better if those men weren't around at all.
I don’t know if either is worst. Both are devastating, period. Maybe having a “misguided” father of a cult or terrible teachings is worse because of children grow up with terrible teachings about God and likely also experience abuse of any kind, it can hugely mess up their view of God and draw them away. So many have. Who can blame them? 😢
Been on both sides of it and they are equally bad. They just have different consequences.
I just started watching Happy Shiny People this week, so this was great timing :) The issues you talk about here are EXACTLY what I found issue with while watching. I wonder how Jill feels about her part in this series. I’d be furious.
I had never heard of the IBLP or Gothard until recently, but his teachings were everywhere when I was a young teen. I went to a private Baptist school for a year and a half that I now realize taught straight out of Gothard's handbook, and boy did it mess me up. Some of the churches I went to were the same. It's startling to realize how far his teaching has gone. I'm now 32 and it's only been over the past few years that I've untangled that mess from my actual beliefs and realized who I really am as a child of God. I haven't read Jinger's book but I look forward to it - I'm finally becoming free indeed myself.
I’m interested in which of his teachings that you learned that messed you up, if you don’t mind sharing.
@@Robin-px9rc For one, how women were viewed. Women were "jewels" in God's crown and so special, but we couldn't speak against a man, or contradict him, and we had to be submissive and Godly women--and by that they did not mean the Biblical definitions of those words, but that we were very much less than men. We had to dress and act properly or we'd lead men into temptation...If a man looked at a woman the wrong way or lusted after her, that was her fault for causing him to sin. There were older male students at the school I went to that talked to me and touched me in ways that I didn't even understand at 11-12 years old, but I knew that it was MY fault, so I didn't say anything. I just begged God for forgiveness for whatever it was that I'd done to deserve it.
It also made Christianity not about Jesus and what He had done for us, but about the rules that we had to follow, and what we were against. You couldn't be a Christian and listen to music with drums, or be around alcohol, or read Harry Potter or watch Disney (lol), or do one of the many, many things that God hated and which meant there wasn't room for you in Heaven.
It made being a Christian a very hard thing to do. It was very "us against them," them being non-believers and people God didn't like, and being part of the "us" was nearly impossible. It made me hate myself and feel worthless, and I was sure God felt the same way.
I was a devout viewer of the show. I can still name all 19 kids in birth order haha. I was raised Christian and I knew what they believed was really different. I was always confused about their religion. I loved the show because of the kids. I always thought the parents were weird.
You loved watching kids being abused. Because that's what their 'really different believes' are: abuse. I'm not even talking about all the messed up stuff that went on behind closed door, but the oh so quirky stuff shown out in the open on the tv show. The extreme purity culture, the buddy system, the all encompassing control Jim Bob so proudly showed off, I could go on and on. You, and let's be fair many MANY others, watched that and were entertained by it. :/
@@jessicably3 See, @kaylaburdette8450, you're not the only one who enjoyed watching abuse.
@@saynotoh2o747Noticing you defining their behavior as abuse but not using proof text as a source of reference. Am I to understand that you are coming to this conclusion based on your own set of morals or value system that you’ve created for yourself?
@@Robin-px9rc ^ Child abuser spotted
Did you even watch the docuseries? Jill did not have a camera crew present during childbirth. She agreed to set up cameras and film it herself, then give it to the producers.
Thank you for addressing this from such a great multi-faceted, biblical perspective!!
Many kids who have both a mom and a dad love their mom very much, and also love their dad very much, and they enjoy the innate social differences between their mom and dad.
That's how I felt as a kid, and it's also how I've seen pretty much every kid act who has both parents.
Such a good breakdown and scriptural reaction to the show - thank you for sharing the truth!
Jill Duggar, who was in the documentary flat out, stated her father blackmailed her into having her birth on the show. He sent her a copy of the signed contract, a contract that she didn’t even know she was signing because she trusted her father not to take advantage of her
That's not the definition of blackmail. If you're saying that he sent her a contract to remind her that she's contractually obligated to have the birth on that show, that's not blackmail.
It isn't blackmail but misrepresentation of the contractual terms. He intentionally concealed certain information on what the contract entailed
That documentary was ultimately a poorly made hit piece on Christianity. I’m glad they pointed out the wrong of IBLP and the Duggars’ situation, but they were so blatant about their agenda and honestly didn’t even make sense in some areas. Glad you covered this.
Agreed. Their anti Christian agenda was apparent.
IBLP isn’t even part of Christianity… did we watch the same documentary? Those interviewed spoke the truth about the CULT of IBLP. The duggars might claim they’re Christian but ultimately they listen to man over God.
@@Sunflowergrace17 yes, you’re right! But they did point the finger at Christianity in my opinion.
I would need to watch again. I felt it was focused on the cult itself and their bad teachings and it’s affects on all who were involved. I didn’t see it trying to say all Christian’s were like that. Yet also, there are a lot of other Christian denominations/groups who do teach similar things….look at how Christian’s were behaving with the whole Trump election.
In my opinion, most of Christianity has indeed strayed from the true gospel and has become more worldly and carnal. I blame that on decades and decades of bickering over doctrines and splitting apart into more and more denominations. I’ve read there are now approx 216 “major denominations” or over 30-40,000 denominations. Either way, by the time we bicker and split into this many denominations…. You CANNOT stay true to the true gospel. So I’m personally believing that only a small minority of Christians are staying true to the gospel, or trying to go back to it. So many are having to leave all these churches that are nothing but empty religion. That’s my own personal experience also.
@@MultiSignlanguage Yes, I agree, it feels as though so many people don't know the true gospel because they spend all their time trying to DO things right (or what they deem right) rather than RECEIVE what's right from God.
The thing really rubbed me the wrong way about Bill Gothard's teaching (and others like him) was when he said men should never get jobs as a secretary because that's "woman's work". They forget about the fact that there are men who are physically handicapped, and have to have a "sit down" job, or men who are not "mechanically inclined" and can only do "artistic" or "clerical" work, because that was how God gifted them! That does mean they have an inclination toward being gay, which seems to be implied
You saying that you've been labeled a fundamentalist because of your biblical beliefs nails it on the head. The documentary had an agenda for sure, amd it wasn't just to point out legalist teachings gone wrong.
Allie could you list the chapter and of number from”Screw Tape Letters”? That is a fantastic quote!
Thank you and enjoy your podcasts!
Exactly! When she said teaching girls to dress modest is slut shaming, what a conflation. I was listening to this show while I was making my husband's lunch for tomorrow and I had pause it just to research if other people are also seeing this. The way they are mocking God's word is disgusting. I don't even know if I want to finish the series.
I didnt; lasted two episodes.
I couldn’t even last an hour watching this thing.
My husband was raised in the Gothard ministry. Years ago when he told me about his childhood I was like, “That’s a cult!” He left all of it and thankfully his parents weren’t as invested as some people. But his mother did tell me she was disappointed that he didn’t pick someone from basically “their religion.” I am a Christian raised in the church. But that wasn’t enough. At first. Anyway, I’m so grateful for certain aspects of the ministry because my husband is wonderful and is totally committed to homeschooling as am I. But if I said there wasn’t some damage done to him and his relationship with God that wild be a lie. There are scars, for sure. That being said this documentary over reached in a big way. It was some serious fear mongering.
I haven't watched that show yet, because it was done by Prime video (Amazon), therefore, I am expecting lots of anti-christian bias from them (*so is it even worth sorting through?)
Edit: basically I'm agreeing with your comment about the documentary "overreaching".
@@amandagerasapolous First of all... why are you arguing against me something against something that I didn't even say to begin with? (seemingly a "strawman fallacy")....however, enforcing even Biblical principles without the leading of the Holy Spirit (similar to being "under law" vs Grace) is not necessarily a wise thing (*it's also trusting one's own flesh to obey God rather than God remember Christ said "without Me, you can do nothing"); which might have been one reason that The Lord Jesus had even His Apostles to wait until Pentecost (*to not even fulfill His previous commandment of the great commission or otherwise until then), which also had to be directed by God's Spirit even afterwards and not by human "programs"). BTW, I didn't say anything against actual Biblical principles in my previous comments... so again, I'm a little unclear of why you seem to be arguing with me?
@amandagarasapolous I said Bill Gothard ministry was a cult. Not that following God’s word was cult like. And there is such a thing as grace. And you also have to consider the context of scripture. Then there’s personal conviction. I mean it also says in Leviticus that children who talk back to their parents should be killed. Do we just apply that rule today and call it good? We have to think deeply about all scripture, what was the context, what is the original Hebrew or Greek? How have those words and meanings changed over time we may hear them with a different ear. Then we pray and ask for Holy Spirit guidance as we live. At least that’s how I’ve been doing it for the last 40 years.🤷♀️
@@amandagerasapolous Do you follow Jesus and his teachings in the New Testament or not? The New Testament/covenant is the better covenant.
2 Corinthians 3:3-18. The greater glory of the new covenant because the Spirit gives life while the the letter (laws/Old Testament) kills. (Verse 6).
Hebrews 8:6-13
“But in fact the ministry Jesus received is superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is a mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.”…..
Please read more of the New Testament and see Jesus. Follow him and his example and what he teaches in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Be careful of listening to those who spend too much time in the Old Testament and don’t see Jesus and his love and grace and compassion.
Your experience sounds a lot like mine with my husband and in-laws. They weren't part of Gothard's church, but it was very similar, and there was disappointment that my husband chose me and not someone from their church. There's still some tension over the fact I wear pants.
I am a relatabro. And really appreciate and enjoy your show. Grace and Peace.
Glad you covered this. My husband and I tried to watch this series, but turned it off quickly because it is clearly coming from a secular anti-Christian perspective.
Thanks for differentiating all these teachings. Please do another video on this topic. It seems that the progressives are very good at making extreme accusations (in an attacking way).
Happy Juneteenth y'all. Am enjoying the holiday off. And thanks for the Relatabro love!
🙋🏻♀️ I deconstructed into a much more biblical, conservative Christianity than I was before I deconstructed. Granted, I did my time exploring progressive Christianity in between, but it wasn’t long before the Holy Spirit drew me back into submission (through the power of His Word, of course). I actually started reading the Bible to prove other Christians wrong, and I simply found myself being convicted instead.
Praise God He kept you and helped you see things more clearly! I love how Jinger called this "disentangling" and finding the truth amongst the lies.
@@ameliacoburn4787 I identify more with the term deconstruction because it describes the process I went through better.
The Oxford dictionary definition of deconstruction is: a method of critical analysis of philosophical and literary language which emphasizes the internal workings of language and conceptual systems, the relational quality of meaning, and the assumptions implicit in forms of expression.
The Oxford dictionary definition of Disentanglement is: to separate different arguments, ideas, etc. that have become confused.
I personally prefer the term deconstruction, as the majority of my personal deconstruction revolved around in-depth study of biblical language and context. I don't find it helpful or necessary to change my language simply because some people have "deconstructed" out of the faith.
Im a Chrsitian and a homeschooling parent. I watched the series and didnt feel they were lumping in all of Christianity and homeschoolers in with the IBLP. They were definitely calling out thwt curriculum and the theology of the IBLP but i didnt feel it was a Christian bash session.
As a child of a second year ATI family.... One thing we had our own meanings to the same words. So we could have a conversation with someone and they didn't know what we were saying something unless they were ATI/IBLP. Like Amy said getting encouragement.... That could mean a beating at the worst and an extra chores or some kind of mild punishment. Encouragement was not a good word. We used exhortation as a normal person would say encouragement.. I was also adopted... We were told we were cursed.
@@jessicably3 well, i don't know, as soon as my brother was working, they made him live in the back yard, and when i was 18, they dropped me at a homeless shelter... I don't think my dad felt that way, but she controlled him like i couldn't believe. Focus on the Family was prominent in the house, too, but it was second behind ATI/IBLP. I had an amazing education. I would have been able to go to any college i wanted, but, i just wanted to get married. I didn't expect things would end up like my brother. I am grateful that I was saved 4 years ago. I can't even explain the difference between the God i was told he was and the God He IS. I ruined my life, and will spend the rest of my life paying for the destruction i caused. But i am full of joy and peace.
@@jessicably3 I would say that it was a clear teaching for IBLP. I don't believe that my mother was a christian. I don't know how she could be, and my father was just controlled by her jezebel spirit. I never heard the actual gospel or saw the real God. But everyone around us thought we were the perfect christian family. We brought so many people to IBLP and since we were part of the homeschooling groups in the county, we brought SO MANY new families to ATI. Everyone i knew had the same upbrining. But i do believe that there were some actual christians. There were some homes i felt safe in. I rarely felt safe around christians, so it was rare there would be someone that my mother approved of that i felt safe with. I don't know what's wrong with her, but i pray for her, someone so horrible must be hurting more than i can even imagine. That or she is evil. Either one works, but i try to hope for the best... The docuseries tried to compare all christians to IBLP and that's just not true. And that is my major issue with the project. I really hope that christians can make a doc, so those of us who have come through and have made it to the REAL God and aren't performing anymore can make it known that IBLP is BAD but JESUS is our Savior. They twisted everything and it is sick how things went down. I recommend you check out Recovering Grace. org if you want more information about the survivors.
So as a teenager my church sent us to a Bill Gotham’s seminar, we had these big hard bound books with all the systems and rules for living that life. I’m grateful our church didn’t pursue this any further after we went.
I like your makeup today 💜 I’m curious, do you do your own makeup for the show, does a makeup artist that works in the studio do it and do they really use Adel natural cosmetics?
🙋♀️ Hi from 🇨🇦. I watched Every episode of What NOT to Wear; all the specials and episodes of the Duggars. I had a 3 yr old and an infant when 19 kids and counting premiered. I often would record the shows and watch while folding laundry ect. The family lifestyle wasn't too foreign to me because I had neighbors in the IBLP when I was a little girl. I attended a very conservative Christian school. I had/ have friends who are part of the Quiverfull movement. I have continued to closely follow the Duggars. I fully support Jill and Jinger 🙏
I grew up in the 70's and 80's in a small town in north Florida. My parents and I attended an independent Baptist church. While the strictness and the umbrella was never really that big in my life, some of the rules of Bill Gothard were to be found in the teachings at the churches I attended. Pants was.a BIG one, women shouldn't cut their hair or wear makeup ( or a lot of makeup). Sexual purity was another. Physical punishment (looking back now, my beatings were from a place of anger not love. Another was no TV. I am still a Christian, born again and attend non-denominational church. My parents were ignorant about things of the world and I paid the price. I loved Ginger's book! It was so beautifully written and it really struck a chord with me. We never acknowledged that sexual abuse existed or what to do about it if it happened to you. Girls couldn't wear a deep v-neck shirt or blouse, and skirts had to hit very close or below the knee. It was miserable. I was not forced into wearing skirts by my parents - I work halter tops, shorts, jeans, 2-piece bathing suits. BUT you didn't wear that kind of stuff around the preacher or on church outings. It was absurd - I was living two different lives.
Jim Bob was introduced to fanaticism, not fundamental teachings. There is a difference for sure. They were too eager to take everything to the inth degree. They live in a perpetual state of fear, I know because my parents did too. The idea of owning your truth from God's word is not taught. The people running the church demand you follow their teachings and don't think for yourself. For a baby Christian whose family didn't attend church (Jim Bob) it is easy to believe the wrong things. Jim Bob never considered alternate points of view, but got entrenched with Bill's teachings. Even more so when TLC started paying them.
🤔 Jim Bob grew up in a restrictive church.....
Bri... Bre? I'm an idahoan too! I laughed when Allie said that we might be used to seeing the skirt wearers. 😅 As a Pastor's Wife, I can tell you that Idaho loves their jeans and I hardly ever see anyone in skirts, except for the Mennonites and pentecostals. Dressing up for church is foreign to most Idahoans! 😂
That's kind of sad. I've noticed how casual church goers have become. In fact, I left one church because people showed up looking like they had been cleaning the bathroom or mowing their lawns (and a couple I'm pretty sure wore their pajamas) yet I would see them two days later out for a lunch date or shopping and dressed to the nines. I felt it showed a real lack of respect for the Lord who died for them.
@@moschroeder I agree! I think dressing your best shows honor to the Lord and the local church.
Dressing up for church is foreign all over the country anymore.
Loved this podcast! As for what you said on hearing a pastor say something that is not how you believe it to be and having your bible to read and discern what you believe! Thank you! In my city we have the extreme fundamentalist churches, the believe anything you want churches, the Rock & Roll then decent sermon churches and the wishy washy churches! I am more terrified of wishy washy! And that is because they never give a straight answer as to their mission statement. What do they believe???? Are they okay with socially acceptable things or against them? I feel very uneasy about what my church really believes! And yet if I go to a church that may have the right mission statement do I in turn have to listen to a rock & roll praise band instead of hymns? There is no such thing as a "traditional" church where I live!
I always appreciate your common sense, gospel centered wisdom and discernment.
The disturbing aspect of the IBLP to me is that these “conferences” seem more of an influence than the local church. Bill Gotthard should never had any authority / he was accountable to no one. Very cult like.
One thing I will mention about Michele Duggars voice ( as a former preschool teacher ) that when you are with kids all the time you do end up using a sweet voice at inappropriate times. My husbands reminded me of this when I said good morning to a grown adult neighbor.😂😂. Also the financial freedom seminar was pretty good basic budgeting and stay out of debt. It helped us a lot.
I agree. And she explained to me about lowering her voice to a whisper instead of raising it when correcting the children. She does that to effectively get their attention while practicing self control herself. Funny thing is I recently saw the exact same advice- when disciplining or correcting children try a whisper rather than a yell- from a secular (or not stated to be Christian) video on Facebook.
So many similarities between the Gothard cult & the FLDS cult!
I was raised in an SBC but went to public school just north of Dallas. I would occasionally watch the Duggars. While watching the documentary I didn’t realize how big Gothard’s teachings were.
I'm not sure I can explain this fully but as I watched the documentary I thought how easy it is for the leaders of our churches to deceive their congregation with their interpretation of the Bible.
I see that more and more in my small community.
People are not Reading the Bible between Sundays and blindly following whoever is standing in the pulpit be it male or female. Thank you for covering this topic.
Allie I usually agree w you on most things. In fact I agree that this documentary leans the way you are talking about. However, I’m fairly certain someone like Alex Harris, like Ginger, said more than they portrayed on the documentary and was probably left out. I would be willing to bet that if you invited him on he’d express the gospel clearly and the difference between that and the IBLPs stance on things. I’d encourage you in that direction to hear more from him or someone like him.
I totally agree with Allie. I once knew a church of people who behaved like the IBLP, etc. I’ve met maybe a thousand conservative Christians and NONE of them were like the Duggars. Even some women who attended fundamental Baptist churches wore pants and miniskirts. Other than the few in one very small church, most dress like most generally modest people.
Many truths have been expounded on in this segment, differentiating freedom from fear.
I agree that we ought to operate out of love for the Father n the Son. However, there is a right type of fear n reverence toward God. We are admonished to fear our Maker as it leads to honoring Him in the right spirit❤
Paul & Morgan have a video about their part in the doc. They were grossly misled by the crew. I have seen some of their content and they are solid, not in the least bit Gothardy. Great episode as usual, AB. 🎉
Where would I find that?
I stopped watching them because all they ever think about is sex issues and I think that is a red flag
@@flowerpower3618 Sex issues are very important too, a topic often dismissed in Christian circles when sex is a good gift from God. They're only filling that void.
@@InfoLunix not every stinking episode.
I watched most of the Gothard videos and went to a conference. I didn't see it as that bad, but I just left behind the overly legalistic parts. But i do work with some Christians who were undone by that legalism and abuse that ensued 😢
My biggest issue with it is how much they point fingers at homeschooling.
I enjoyed this conversation between you two ladies!
I think I went to at least, maybe two BG Seminars when I was in high school or maybe around 22(?). I don’t know what stuck or what didn’t. Can’t remember much about it!
I thought so too. Glad you bring light to this.
The family was created by God. It works best when we follow His design.
HIS design...not Bill Gothards...
Might be a good idea to look into Amy before commenting on. She was definitely on the worldly side.
Agree. Amy stated that they did not believe in waiting for marriage to have sex.
There's probably a lot of Christian single moms that listen to your show. We're single for a reason. Sometimes what is best for our children is to flee from abuse. Sometimes men claim to be believers, but show zero fruit.
Thank you. Life is hard for EVERYone, but for me, instead of telling me my son needs his dad and needs to be in a Cristian school, help me going FORWARD in this fallen world where those things are NOT options for me now.
The Christian schools where I am are around 9K a year. I divorced my alcoholic, drug-addicted, adulterous husband & submitted to God’s discipline of me for my mouth/impatience/unkindness…. Re-marriage if I WANTED to & felt was permitted in Scripture (oh…and if there was some guy who wanted to marry me. 😅) is not an option.
So what now? The Church, the wives & husbands w/ their “perfect” marriages, need to step-back from criticizing & telling us what is going wrong in our little families & step-in to be a family-example our kids need to see. I’ve been in a precious reformed church for a few years. All the little “perfect” families (because I DO see how hard things are for them too…truly! 😢) never even think to invite my son & I over for dinner/lunch/after-church BBQ’s. But they sure do talk about those gatherings in front of me. Every week.
Ultimately let’s not count God out! Voddie Baucham: raised by a SINGLE, BUDDHIST mother in CA. We have a BIG God for our kids!
Physical abuse is one thing, emotional abuse is another. The Bible never gives emotional abuse as a reason for divorce.
@@Laura-ed5kf I understand what you mean. We can't have the burden laid on our shoulders to go along to get along just for the sake of staying in a biological, traditional marriage. I wanna know what happened to the men. There are thousands of women making the same complaints about them. It makes me wonder if it's a generational thing or they've just always been like this
@@MRuth-es5kf okay, thank you for that information. Would you like a checklist of the complaints I have against my husband? Mental, verbal, and physical abuse. Adultery. Lying and sneaking. Anger issues.. We split up on Easter Sunday, and I haven't received any support for our Autistic 6 year old daughter. Is that enough to count? I could tell so many crazy stories.. I would never ever tell someone they had to stay married while enduring abuse.
Nice job ; Ending with the CS Lewis quote
If there are a significant number of women in a workplace whom are wrestling with their weight (and trying to eat healthy), would it be fair to say the boss shares some of the blame for their condition if he brings a couple boxes of donuts to the office each morning? So also, women who call themselves Christian, yet dress in a licentious manner do, in fact, hold a measure of responsibility for causing men to stumble, regarding lust. This is what love looks like from both sides…bearing with the weakness of another and helping to make level paths so each is not prone to stumble.
I watched them growing up religiously and loved the show! I also thought they were Baptist just a little extra lol, until my grandma one day said no they are NOT Baptist.
There are other Christian denominations that believe in women having long hair and wearing only skirts/dresses. The United Pentecostal church is one of them. I grew up in the UPCI and I loved watching the show because they looked just like me. Also, I remember while watching the show they claimed to be Southern Baptist. I never heard them mention the IBLP until recently. I also know that some Baptist churches have the same standards because my daughter goes to a Baptist private school where all the women have long hair and wear dresses/skirts.
Hopefully you will take time to read more of the New Testament for yourself and be careful of falling into the trap of trying to establish your own righteousness by being so focused on trying to follow and obey rules all the time.
Read Galatians, the whole book, but especially chapter 3.
Also Colossians 2: 6-23, col. 3:1-17.
Jesus came to set us free from being bound by rules, thinking that we can be free if we keep trying hard enough.
Romans 9:30-33 and Romans 10:1-4, the difference between establishing our own righteousness thru the law/works versus by faith.
There is a huge difference between the two things. Please make sure you and your family see this. I suspect the vast majority of Christianity has muddied the waters on this issue
One's conscience is between them and the Holy Spirit. If I conclude that wearing a dress and head covering (or listening to this not that, or going here not there, or doing this not that) is pleasing to the Lord via my Scripture reading and prayer, then for me to do anything else is sin! If other believers feel badly because I do or don't, that's between them and the Lord! I don't make anyone else conform to my beliefs, although I may seek out a church with like beliefs. And we need to understand that a husband/father will answer to the Lord for his family! That is a huge responsibility! It really doesn't matter if you don't like his standards for his family! He doesn't answer to you! And to try to teach/influence his children or wife that might be watching this that his standards are ridiculous is messing with the God-ordained chain of authority! Beware!!! This business of shaming and "correcting" our brothers and sisters who have standards "tighter" than our own needs to stop! It is the same judgementalism/legalism that we are accused of!
@@MultiSignlanguage I have read the New Testament several times. I was only pointing out the fact that there are many denominations that practice the same dress standards that the Duggards do. It isn't as abnormal as she thinks it is.
Actually sometimes it is a blessing. It gave me many opportunities that I would not have had otherwise to share the gospel because all throughout school I was asked why I only wore skirts.
That being said, it is a personal conviction. Someone who wears skirts everyday is no more holy than someone who doesn't. And someone who wears pants isn't more enlightened about Scripture than someone who wears skirts everyday.
The Holy Spirit convicted me years ago against wearing pants because God laid it upon my heart that everything about men and women is different. How they look. How they act. Their body parts. Their roles. Their functions. So why wouldn't we dress differently too?
Now, if you are not convicted about it? Cool. It isn't a sin. The Bible says immodesty is a sin, and women can dress modestly wearing pants. I have also seen women dress immodestly wearing skirts/dresses.
One of the ways that I worship and honor my God is through my dress.
One of the ways I honor my husband is through my dress.
1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
@josietanner3960 I 100% agree, and you and I share a very similar experience. My response was to the other commenters and to Ally. The prevalent attitudes by some toward other believers who see things a bit differently is too often unbiblical and so damaging to many women, children, and entire families who end up torn apart because someone (online or in person) planted seeds of rebellion in a man's wife and/or children. A man's authority in his own home is sacred, and frequently and carelessly throwing around terms such as "spiritual abuse" and "legalism" stirs up a victim mentality which leads to discontentment and rebellion. Let us not be party to any of it. The Holy Spirit and the Word are perfectly capable of teaching us the truth and how we should live. Honoring God, father, and husband in the Lord is paramount to preference and we do well to remember it. ❤️
Also, the accusation that we do what we do in order to get to heaven is false. It is clearly by grace through faith alone. But the sanctification that follows is going to look differently for each person, right? Conscience is key! We ought to protect one another's consciences out of love for each other. So says Romans.
@@joannedaniels1446 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
I think that so many people forget this Scripture. Just because they see a woman who won't wear pants or they hold a certain dess standard doesn't mean that they are doing to earn their salvation. More times then not they are doing it as part of their sacrifice to God. I'm sure glad God judges by the heart, lol.
I'm glad someone else has had a similar experience, and knows what this is like.
So True! Love these types of Conversations..
I'd love to see you feature Crystal Paine on your podcast as I think she has a unique personal perspective from growing up in it and I've found her thoughts to be some of the most helpful and insightful I've seen from someone who has kept and strengthened her faith despite being a part of this group as a child.
Yes! She referred to it as pursuing godliness without the gospel and I thought that was a perfect way to put it!
Love Chrystal!
Allie is a very wise young lady, I truly enjoy listening to her.
So well said thank you for your show
The Fundy Friday channel was weird when I checked it out. A Jesus and TeleTubby wall, Reverend Jennifer, King James, doing makeup to look like a mushroom…?
It is vital to go into cultural meaning in its day and to whom the scripture was talking to.
Did anyone catch how they tried to infer that the homeschool movement that started in the 80’s was because of school integration in the 50’s?
Yessss, I totally caught that! They definitely pushed their agenda in these episodes.
I caught it also. No one I knew homeschooled for that reason. Just another way the producers were pushing their agenda.
Yep. That was frustrating.
I was appalled at that implication! The fact is, people became aware of humanism in the 70's, a decade after prayer and Bible reading were removed from the public schools. And in the 80s, the government reports were publicized indicating the declining reading scores. And then there was drugs in the schools. Evolution was taught without teaching Creation. These are the main reasons that Christian schools started. Then Dr. Roy Moore, a speaker on Focus on the Family, spoke and homeschooling, and it caught on like wildfire! I didn't know one single person who was motivated by race. That was a horrible accusation!
Having grown up with iblp teachings, there was much emphasis on purity of heart, as laid out in Matthew 5. Everyone fixates on the modest dress issue, but there was actually a lot said to the men about keeping their eyes and hearts pure. That seems lost in this conversation. Also, the young women were encouraged to go out and do ministry, advance their education etc. Not necessarily confined to the home. So it would be good to familiarize yourself with the actual teachings. Tgere are definitely flaws in them, but let's be accurate.
Also a lot was said about hysbands loving wives and being sensitive to them.
@@Raya-ir4tm I'm just saying let's be accurate and truthful in how we represent things. I'm not saying anything wrong they taught or did is excusable.
Okay, y’all. I’m a Christian and True Crime addict🤨😆 but one of the channels I subscribe to talked about this documentary in the last couple of days and I’m telling you I did NOT have a good feeling listening to them talk about this cult the Duggars were in and Christianity as a whole. Also, the mounds of people in the comments who related to the “extreme fundamentalist” was shocking. I wasn’t sure what to do with all of it🤷🏻♀️
I’m a Christian and True Crime junkie as well. Let me guess was it pretty lies and alibis? If so, I watched/listened to it too. It kinda rubbed me the wrong way.
I’m a true crime fan as well. I think it’s a woman thing. But anyway , yes there is a boatload of anti Christian stuff going on. But we must remember that they love the darkness over the light and we are the light. They want us extinguished because of that.
Thank you for your kind words to us brolatables Allie. I've sorta gotten into my feels before in the past when you would always say that this show is for women lol
I felt like I was a weirdo or a perv or something🙈😅
Great quote to finish on Allie, he was absolutely right.
The way that the IBLP treats women is horrible. Raping them, abusing them, and doing anything they wanted to them wasn’t wrong. That’s sick. The whole way that Joshua Duggar wasn’t held accountable in the beginning was ridiculous to me. How horrible for his Sisters and other people who had been abused by him. Their lives had been turned upside down, but the camera still rolled. Shame on TLC. Really.
Nobody is perfect, even Christians. I appreciate Bill Gothard’s Institute of Basic Youth Conflicts study that helped me get back on the right tract many years ago when I was a young college student. The theme verse was Joshua 1:8 which I took to heart: know and obey God’s Word, that’s how you show you love God. And obey and respect authority. You’ll never go wrong with those, and to this day that’s what i encourage young people to do: know and hide God’s Word in your heart, and of course follow what it says. “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I (too) will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” John 14:21NASB
I remember this “doctrine” followed by families in my church.
Bottom line: know your scripture and don’t conform to the peer pressure of “the righteous” around you. It can be a strong distraction from the path God set for you
I remember an episode of the Duggars TLC show where they specifically addressed Michelle’s voice, and Jim Bob flat out says Michelle chooses to speak in a soft voice. It’s a choice. I think it goes back to their ideals of teaching people to keep sweet, be slow to anger, etc. but if you think about it, that really is a way of taking away the voices of girls and women. Be sweet and don’t object to anything.
I disagree. I’d rather have a mom that speaks sweetly than the one I had that was critical and yelled all the time.
@@flowerpower3618gotta have balance
@@flowerpower3618 of course, but you’re missing the point that in this cult the baby voice is just one of many ways in which women and girls are trained to be subservient. It’s a form of control. While “keeping sweet” and not raising their voices these women are simultaneously allowing their daughters to be abused (Michelle) and allowing their pedophile husbands repeated access to their children (Anna). It’s not a good situation. I am sorry your mother was so critical though.
Interesting point. When I was in Christian college, my RA was soft-spoken and sweet. She said she wanted to have a "meek and quiet spirit." I admired her. I didn't change my voice, but I thought that meant that I should not be out-going or enthusiastic. I finally realized that God didn't want me to change my personality, and that wasn't what that scripture meant. (BTW, Gothard wasn't popular at that time. But a few years later and in a different state, we did become involved in his teachings. But that's another story, and I've commented elsewhere about that.)
IBLP and especially the Duggar parents, taught biblical principals and taught men love your wives.
According to bible and IBLP, all women and men are responsible for dressing and behaving in a way that draws people to Christ, and not for attracting people away from Christ and to making us be their idol!
Men and women, are responsible for not letting themselves fall into lustful (idolatrous) thoughts attractions, but also, both men and women are responsible to not temp anyone, which means don’t dress or behave in a way that leads others to lust! That is biblical teaching!
I'm glad you finally commented on the "you can tell who the homeschool kids were they stick out always" 🤣 OK whatever...as if! (Going back to my childhood and 90s lingo lol)
Relatabelles! Love it!
Hm, I didnt really get the sense that Christians at large were being conflated with IBLP or Gothard. I did find how they tried to connect the Joshua Generation to christian influencers in general to be a little sloppy, but overall thought the documentary did a good job. I hear you saying that Gothard represents the corruption of legalism. Im curious about how you define legalism and where those boundaries lie. Could you say more about that?
the documentary also stated that part of the pornography Josh had on his computer at work included a baby- 4-6 months old, being physically injured and who knows what else.......
Yes. Extremely disturbing.
He should be locked up for life. Pure evil and he is probably teaching Bible in prison. Pedophiles never change.
I 100% agree with his prison time but I think we need to acknowledge how zip files work. He purchased but doesn't mean he knew all that was in it. Does that justify the porn use and what was there. Absolutely not but we also can't assume that is what he was looking for it and knowingly purchased that aspect. Similar to a drug addict being sold drugs that are tainted. More effort needs to be put into finding those creating this content. We will never stop it just by imprisoning those watching it. Those creating it are causing way more damage. Again cause some will take this outta context regardless of if he knew this was included I agree with his prison sentence.
Disgusting
I believe one court document said he looked at one 30 sec. Which I would think means was opened, realized what it was and closed it. 🤷