Bill Gothard: What Christians Should Know About His Unbiblical Teachings, w/ Don Veinot & Ron Henzel
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Don Veinot and Ron Henzel join the podcast today to talk about the teachings of Bill Gothard. They give us a basic idea of what Gothard taught, and why these ideas are unbiblical.
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I loved many of the teachings and still see them as vsluable and useful but i never took the teachings to a cult level. One can listen and learn from without taking ideas to an extreme. Satan is a pendulum pusher.
The Character Sketches books were excellent. Beautiful art work and excellent biblical principles from the animal kingdom and nature.
They have some points, but this is the weakest video you have made, and I'm a huge fan. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm a little surprised that you, as an apologist, didn't get one of Gothard's books and study the Scripture in it yourself before doing this video. Blessings! I will be listening to many more of your videos with my teens! 46:30 - sometimes (many times) you DO have to use common sense. I faced this with the end of my pregnancies. It was a health situation. 49:00 - This is completely untrue (tying complementarianism to abuse), and the exact reason why we are hearing more and more right now about Gothard. These women involved with critical feminist theory hang their hats on it. 50:00 Absolutely. However, EVERYONE at times has to be called out on their behavior. Me included; ask my husband. ;)
Spot on! I’m sad they could spend an hour trashing a man, and never once open up one of his books, and show the biblical precedent for each of the principles. These men claimed that he was teaching self acceptance because of Freudian ideology… And the woman in the video doesn’t say a thing… She doesn’t ask for evidence she doesn’t ask for scriptures she doesn’t challenge them in the slightest, but she does give them the opportunity for them to sell their book.
I love Childers but this was not strong work.@@kernelofwheat
I attended a week-long seminar of Bill Gothard in the 80s. I learned many useful things and was able to repair the broken relationship with my father due to his teaching . My husband cured his gallstones using his medical advice. There were definitely things I didn't agree with him on and was dismayed he ended in a scandal. I found him helpful and very gracious.
You are correct in saying "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."
One should never follow a man, but Christ only. ✝️
I believe I grew greatly in the Lord from this man's teaching
I also attended one of his seminars in the 70's. I was a very young Christian at the time (as well as a young adult), but I still got a lot of good info from it.
He was very entertaining as a speaker weaving together a smooth narrative, even while painting a huge landscape in real time. I recall the shock when he slashed though the scene with huge black vertical strokes, but those became the trees in the foreground, which gave the painting some beautiful depth... and drove home the point that traumatic events in life can be painted into beauty and depth.
His clearest instruction, though, was to meditate on scripture, and memorize chapters at a time. As he instructed, I memorized Mt 5-7, Romans 1-8, numerous psalms and chapters of Proverbs... and continue that practice 40+ years later.
I'm sad that he went off the rails, but I had practically forgotten about him when I learned of it.
@Cluedinage Yes! Thank you so much for reminding me of the chalk drawings! His teaching on suffering was so transformative for me. The idea that God will use the suffering in our lives if we let Him, to make something beautiful. There was a gasp in the audience when he took a black chalk and drew an ugly black line right across the beautiful ocean or mountain lake scene, which he had drawn as he was teaching! It seemed that he had intentionally ruined his beautiful scene, but he had a surprise in store when he turned the black marks into beautiful palm trees! Wow! I'm blessed just remembering the experience. Our family never missed the night of a chalk drawing...
God used Gothard in my life to do much good. Only when the PRINCE of peace leads us in the application of the numerous PRINCIPLES, will we have true success. PRINCIPLE without the leadership of the PRINCE is just IPLE, and IPLE is a mixed-up PILE of something.
This hit on Gothard has a bit of a political feel and look to it... or sell a book. I listened to this whole podcast and did not come away with much.
I usually like to listen but frankly to much of this is messed up. Christ is the head of the Church and the head of man. The man is the head of the women. That is biblical. That being said it teaches that husbands should love their wives as Christ loves the Church and gave his life for it. Don’t know who you are talking about but you need to be careful not deny what’s in the word. Where is the Holy Spirit in all this. Maybe people should read and pray and ask God for help. We don’t need more books. Read the Bible. Most abuse is not done by Christian men. This does not sound right. It comes across as the Christian way is causing the problem. It just isn’t true.
I dislike listening so I just unsubscribed! I don't think they understand that Satan can borrow our mouths. Yes people should pray but this is "Diablos" public accusations.
Amen!
You are very mistaken. Abuse in Christian homes is on a par with the culture at large. Unfortunately many in conservative churches use verses about "headship" as an excuse to oppress. Jesus said that His kingdom will be known by love for, and serving one another. So the head of the home is to be the head servant. Abuse is not just physical. Coercive control/ oppression is alive and well in many, many Christian families.
The Proverbs 31 woman did those things spread out over the course of her life. People stretch this out to seem she did them all when her kids were young. When they likely were in phases. The church and marriages would be better off if more mothers prioritized their kids in the early years and took a more phased approach to everything else.
I started to watch this and I am sickened! My family went to the Bill Gothard seminars in the 80’s. I never saw it as a “cult”! He had sound Biblical teachings. I blame the Duggar’s parents for any twisting of the teachings. We still have his beautiful character quality books.
You sure have a lot of ads interrupting this !!
Having been involved in a REAL and authoritative cult AND attending Gothard’s seminar twice, I would caution about labeling his group as a cult. Maybe cultish, but that has to do with one’s opinion of what error is. I would have like a liked more pedantic approach to criticism of Gothard. So much information about him and his teaching on this video is a bit clouded.
Not to mention the fact that these two men are promoting a book and to do so they are defrauding a brother by saying that his teaching was on biblical, and yet they do not show through the Scriptures. What was on biblical… Shame on the woman who did the interview.
I went to the basic seminar 3x And the advanced seminar once. I didn't find the things like these men are saying? Did they attend the basic seminar? I think not. I still use some of the material from the seminar? To follow his teachings was difficult but mostly biblical. Definitely not a cult. Eternity will reveal the truth.
I agree either way limit - the first comment. This is a misconception of Bill Gothard. Until you thoroughly research him and his teachings - you should not be reporting negatively about him. Some people who have gone thru his program have disagreed because it’s radical - the most excellent standard of the Bible teachings and they refuse to live that way. Bill is not perfect but has done more for the Church in our generation than most. I have met him. He’s a well-meaning Christian man.
I wonder if I'm the only one bothered with how loud the music between segments is. I have my sound turned up to be able to hear the soft spoken guests and Alisa and then that comes on and just about scares me to death. If anyone else is bothered too, maybe Alisa's sound engineer could set the volume lower. Anyone?
Yes!!! Same exact thing here!😅
Sound is horrifically loud @ each of Alisa’s commercial break while wearing hearing aids!! Help
Absolutely--made me jump each time that logo music came crashing in. Video editor, please take note!
As the eldest daughter of a former ATI family, I can attest that Gothard's teachings linger long after one leaves his organization and the wounds last longer...😢
I'm praying for you this evening, that the peace of God would envelope your soul. I pray this in the hallowed name of our Heavenly Father.
Thank you for writing this… I feel the same about feminism and I am dealing with the grief of the years I lost because I guided my life based on unbliblical beliefs
Right? where are those videos? Guess you and I should make one. I feel exactly the same way. @@priscilamartinezavila194
The religious abuse and spiritual trauma from Gothard’s teachings are real! I’m still healing ❤️🩹
Sarah, I'm also the eldest daughter of an ATI family (and my dad vigorously defends Bill Gothard to this day) and I agree with you about the long-lasting effects of the damage! I hope you are healing and finding ways to thrive!
We went to a Gothard seminar and gleaned many things that were Biblical. Discernment is an important part of anything. We were never 100% Gothard. We were 100% for Jesus. That makes a difference.
Alisa, I normally love your podcast, and have learned so much over the years from your guests, however, this one missed the mark at several points. While there were certainly aspects of Gothard’s seminars that should be called out (ie his personal life, wrong/legalistic teachings), it seems the waters got a little muddy when you & your guests began discussing Biblical authority. The Bible does teach that man should be the head of the woman. Certainly this leadership should follow the example of Christ…and some who followed Gothard’s teachings on this obviously handled this in the wrong way, but this section of the podcast lacked clarity, in my opinion. Had I not been a regular listener of yours, I would have found myself unsure of what you & your guests actually believe the Bible teaches on this topic.
The other part of the podcast that I was especially dismayed to listen to, was the derision towards those who have decided to trust God to plan their family. While my husband & I understand that the subject of whether or not to take birth control is not specifically addressed in Scripture, we based our decision to trust God in this process for our own family because we saw through many examples in Scripture that He is the One who opens & closes wombs, as well as Scripture that views children as a blessing. We also believe in His Sovereignty & Provision. While this does not remove our responsibility to be faithful stewards of our health or to work hard to provide for our family’s needs, we know God can be trusted with every area of our lives. While the story of the mother who suffered from a brain tumor & stroke was heartbreaking, and there are certainly people who need medical attention/help & unfortunately cause harm by dismissing the advice of doctors in the name of religion….when your guest shared his horror of anyone who would “trust God instead of their doctor”…this was disheartening to hear coming from a guest on your show. Again, I am NOT condemning people who use birth control or agreeing with people who ignore medical advice at all costs…but I felt that the blanket statements/accusations this guest was throwing around was painting with too broad a brush a picture that I don’t think your podcast would normally paint regarding when it is appropriate to trust God…and when it is foolish to trust Him. Is that a statement you really want to stand behind?
I think it is a matter of nuance. It is one thing to trust God with the size of your family (and it is right and good to do so). It is another thing to teach that if you do any form of birth control to restrict the size of your family under any circumstances, you are sinning and disobeying Scripture. It is one thing to proclaim biblical headship (and it is right and good to do so). It is another thing to set up a system where the leader can do no wrong and can never be questioned, regardless of how that leader is abusing those under his authority. Bill Gothard's teaching went way outside of the balanced, Biblical version of these topics, but I think part of the reason he appealed to so many people was precisely because there IS a Biblical version of these things, so his twisting and error was not always easy to see or discern. I grew up in a family that used Bill Gothard's homeschooling curriculum from the time I was 6 to the age of 18, and then I went to a college program run by Bill Gothard's organization, so I was steeped in his teaching and belief from a young age. Alisa and her guests may not have done the best job of articulating the nuance of exactly HOW Bill Gothard's teachings missed the mark, but it would be very difficult to overstate the amount of imbalance, distortion, and twisting that is inherent in his teaching. Were there good, Godly, authentic people in the organization? Absolutely. But were there serious, ongoing, massive departures from Biblical truth on the part of Bill Gothard? Yes, 100%.
@@rebekahchalkley3252thanks, very good summary of Bill, his theology & practice
Thank you for your very thoughtful comment. I'm a retired physician, and I see no problem with people who want to trust God more than the doctor. In fact, I would encourage that, if that is how the patient or family feels. There are billions of dollars wasted in our country from expensive advice from doctors who are just trying to protect themselves from malpractice lawsuits. BTW, I follow the teachings of reformed theology. As a high schooler, I attended at least two full sessions of complete Bill Gothard seminars, and to this day (I'm now 67 years old) I'm still a fan of Bill Gothard. I know he's had some problems, but I believe he gave great advice in his seminars. I would like to say more, but I would keep going for too long. Thank you again for your thoughtful comments.
I Re dedicated myself to the Lord at a Gothard seminar in about 1973/4. Been walking with God since.
😊
Alisa, in my late teens years, I went to one of Bill Gothard's seminars on the recommendation of a neighbor. I was very new in my faith and was the only believer in my family. I was having conflicts with my father over dating and boyfriends. At the seminar I was presented with the teachings about honoring parents, and the Holy Spirit convicted me of my dismissive, rebellious attitudes toward my father. I went home and apologized to him, and was he ever astonished! The tensions and conflicts began to be resolved quickly in our home, and the next year, he, my mom, and sister joined me in going to the seminar. We went year after year! (It was free after paying the first time). It really brought our family together! Please let us tell our story also!
I had a very similar experience. But then I never went to a church where everyone was into Gothard. I went to one seminar with my parents as a teen. And one adult seminar early in my marriage. In both I found very Bible-based principles that helped to re-orient my young Christian life onto a better path. Boy was my high-school boyfriend stunned when I called him up and apologized for "defrauding" him!
Here's one other thought on this particular podcast. The drumbeat that Gothard's teachings are unbiblical, but with no precise quotes, began to give this episode the feel of "gossip." Alisa Childers should have these two gentlemen state what the 7 non optional principles of life are, as stated in the IBLP literature, and then use Scripture to show the error in those principles. Too much of this interview consisted of unsubstantiated claims, or anecdotal stories such as the mention of the pregnant woman. Her story has very little bearing on whether Gothard's seminar content is biblical or not. God's word calls having many children a blessing!
@@beckysmith6375 that verse actually has to do with having sons who could protect the family holdings of land, sheep, women, etc. there were always raiders ready to come and steal---a quiver holds about 8 arrows. people should have as many kids as they want and can afford, not a set number. ----also the shame put on people who cannot have or do not want children.
God can use anything He needs to in order to get His will done.
in your case, you heard what He wanted you to hear in order to heal your relationship with your dad.
but had you done all the other things, like giving up your agency to be under a male authority or worn dresses or not go to college or have a career or had dozens of kids --those things have little to do with God's will except on an individual basis, not what God wants for every single female believer as His perfect will.
Grieves me greatly when people take their lack of faith and throw mud at others...accusations are satanic, lead to condemnation and condemnation is casting one into hell....it is reserved for final judgment. Trusting ones faith in grace does not allow for casting one into hell....that is cultists. Lord help us, father forgive them they know not what they do.
I will not buy books from profiteers ... like authors and musicians in the name of Jesus...Balaam comes to mind...it grieves my heart.
Wow! 😢😭😭 It is SO very sad to listen to this, and to read the handful of comments that I read, for numerous reasons! ...
Just a few observations:
Your comment Alisa, (in reference to another perspective, teaching ...) about the fact that “there’s a spectrum to it, and you can ask 10 different people how they define … and you’ll get 10 different places they fall on the spectrum,” seems VERY important to consider closely when discussing Bill Gothard, or ANY topic, matter, teaching, situation, person … !
Different people very* often see, and hear, and interpret the exact same conversation, teaching, situation, and even* Scripture ... very differently!
And, then there’s our flesh, and the deceiver’s involvement to be alert to aware of. How do these affect what we thought* we heard, and believed, and passed on all over the internet, as fact! ...
(The mind of the flesh is hostile toward God. It does not subject itself to the law of God. It is not even able to do so.)
We all make the serious choice of who we will listen to, and believe! And those choices greatly affect SO VERY MUCH! ...
I am very grateful to Mr. Gothard for encouraging us to give much more attention to, and to believe God's Words to us, in the Bible! And, for risking trying to help us develop a curriculum for training up our children, that had God’s Words to us at the center of it! And, more …
Every single one of us, misunderstands many parts of God’s words to us. We all seem to zero in on certain passages of Scripture, while ignoring others, not even intentionally, often …
We are limited in how much we can focus on, grasp, comprehend at any given time …
We are all* in a learning and discovery process. And, years later we have changed many things that we used believe to be true ...
It is also SO crucial that we be alert to, and guard against the confident false conclusions that we (and others who we listen to, and believe) all jump to about one another, more than we realize.
Our false assumptions, become very destructive false accusations!😢😭😭
Eg. How do you or I know that,
“He was trying to …”
“All she cares about is …”
“He thinks …”
“She just wants ..."
"He did that on purpose ..." Etc. (?)
Sorry, Gothard pretends to use scripture. His hermeneutics are awful. So much so, that he is a false teacher
@elaineferguson6525
Thank you for your insightful comments. This particular episode is rife with accusations, allegations and assumptions. When people give direct quotes, or other hard facts, then their comments should be taken seriously. The fact that Bill Gothard met with these two men weekly is certainly a testament to Gothards willingness to discuss points of biblical interpretation or theology. Gothard has shown himself to be approachable. Truly authoritarian people don't waste their time meeting weekly with their detractors! Just saying...
@greggpurviance7252 proof please?
According to the basic seminar textbook from Bill Gothard, there are six areas of conflict that are addressed during the conference. 1) assurance of salvation. 2) self image. 3) purpose in life. 4) harmony at home.5) moral purity 6) genuine, friendships
Despite what these two men openly lie about to sell a book is beyond dubious; if authority was such a major issue why is it not listed? These two men talk about Freudian teaching, yet they have no basis for the accusations; they claim teachers that grace is earned, and yet they never once present the evidence for such an accusation. I have the book. If I could post a picture I would. This woman should be ashamed that she did not do her investigative journalism; to report what these two liars have said is disgraceful.
Understanding Scripture is important
Please see christadelphian bible study and Christadelphian videos for great learning worldwide speakers from Australia New Zealand and Europe and North America
It is good to be warned about the dangers of incorrect teaching and its consequences. It seems we have kind of gone from worshipping Bill Gothard to demonizing him. A good middle ground might be a theological compendium on where his teachings were unbiblical and where they were biblical. Where his life was biblical and unbiblical. There are things he did which may deserve respect. I guess I was not a devout and complete follower to the point I was harmed terribly. Anyway it is helpful to realize there are dangers to be aware of. A lot of it seems over my head. Wish I could meet those gentlemen.
There's a bit of stone-throwing going on here. Was Mr. Gothard perfect? Absolutely not. He colors his hair and wears platforms perhaps, but I'm inclined to say he is a human with flesh capable of sinning. As a 17 year old, I was helped (through the IBLP) to understand what forgiveness really meant and I was motivated to get under my parent's authority...for those things I am eternally grateful. It's so sad that many were led astray, but our sin and our failures are not his fault. They are our fault. I say we need to avoid reading books and get our noses into the Bible. Study sound doctrine so that we may be able to discern the devils's lies.
I have no pity for this liar and hypocrite. I'll gladly pick up the first stone.
Totally and thank you! Paul wrote "For every man shall bear his own burden/load/responsibility/conduct with their own life (Gal 6:5). Avoid these books which will cause more confusion/anger/gossip/accusations etc... It will grieve God and not glorify God. Satan loves it.
They entitled the video unbiblical teachings, and yet never brought up one scripture that he used that was on biblical or even one principle that was on biblical!!!!
Mr. Gothard never teaches that Grace is something that you have to work for. He merely says that grace is God’s strength given to you to do God‘s will. These two men who want to sell a book, causing division without evidence of one unbiblical teaching. They insinuated about life about Mr. Gothard (Freudian ideology) on self acceptance, and the biblical teachings that he brought forth concerning headship and authority.
@@kernelofwheat Actually, grace is not God's strength given to you to do God's will. It is God's gift to you to save you because you are a sinner and incapable of doing God's will.
@@terrybain828 Actually, according to 2Timothy 3:16 God’s word is for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. So, when you define grace, you must use the word of God. Grace is referred to many times in Scripture, and one of those times is in Hebrews 4:16 where God says that we “receive grace to help in our time of need.“ If you look at Titus 2:11-12 you will see God expressing grace, in such a way that it keeps us from worldly lusts and teaches us to live sober, righteously and godly… when you go to 2Corinthians 12:9 you will see that Paul receives grace (after he is a believer) to deal with the infirmities in his own body. If you go to Philemon, or many of the other epistles, you will read at the end of the epistles “the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.” This grace would not be mention of grace was only about saving faith. Each of these are to believers and not unbelievers; meaning grace is much more than what you claim and what many people assume when they don’t follow 2Tim3:16-17.
I suggest you even take a good look at Romans 5:21 “That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness onto eternal life by Jesus Christ, our Lord.“ Do you see it? Grace must reign. As you can see from this verse, grace is working in us long after our conversion. And lastly, I will leave you with one more scripture 2Peter 3:18a which says “that grow in grace, and in the knowledge, Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.” If grace is a one time thing you would not need to grow in it; we grow and learn to do the will of God by this grace that God gives to us.
Unfortunately, the people in this video, including the woman who did the interview and many people who make comments do not look at the Scriptures as they are presented in the seminars; nor do they look at the scriptures in their own bibles.
The accusations against this man’s teachings and doctrines are without merit; which is why they chose not to present the biblical doctrines from his seminar, but rather they made insinuations and accusations and judgments without the spiritual backing of the Scriptures.
I'm probably not going to take the time to watch this video because I'm seeing comments from what sound like intelligent Christians that are rather concerning. Certainly Bill Gothard's private hypocrisy is a huge issue, but it sounds like the bashing him over sex roles is getting into "Christian" feminism.
No it isn't. The issue is truth & what is Biblical. Gothard, his seminars and organizations fail on both
@@greggpurviance7252 I certainly agree that the issue is truth and what is Biblical
Spot on. They bashed him for unbiblical principles, and yet they never cited one verse of scripture! Shame on the woman who did the interview for not doing her job, but just agreeing with the two of them wholeheartedly and calling it unbiblical. They insinuated and made accusations about his teaching, including comparing it to Freudian teaching and all of this with no evidence!
Alisa believes in complementary roles between the sexes. She is not feminist. Just so you know. And maybe you should watch it yourself before you decide you disagree.
You and other naysayers of IBLP and ATI are weighed in the balance and found wanting. Calling fundamental, Bible based, Christ centered ministries a "cult" is a straw man criticism. If it were possible to survey everyone who attended a seminar or the school, you would find those who benefited and were edified by the teachings FAR out way the critics.
Attacking Bill Gothard as a cult leader has no merit and is a sad attempt to discredit Christians who were trying to honor God and disciple His children toward sanctification.
SAD.
Hey fyi. The plural of curriculum is NOT "curriculums." It's curricula. Curriculums isn't a word.
The difference between cattle driver/shepherd = LOVE
My parents attended a seminar in the 70's. I think they only went the first night. I remember them coming home talking about how "off" the teaching seemed and about how odd it was that this unmarried, childless man was portraying himself as an expert on raising children.
Thank God for your wise, spiritually mature parents. You were spared❤️
Yes! We didn’t realize he wasn’t married until years after we first attended but then when I found out, I knew something wasn’t right.
The Apostle Paul was such a man.
Mine did the same, especially my father. He didn't think a single, childless man had all the answers to having a godly marriage and family. I like some of the resources that ATI offered, but I doubt I would have raised my kids the ATI way. Several families around us did and their kids are so different now from when they were younger. Thankfully, those families had godly, kind fathers who were not abusive and domineering. I often thought I should take what God impressed on me from someone's teaching, not necessarily the whole kit and caboodle, so to speak. God bless those who are still recovering.
A person who teaches from the Bible can convey truth even though they haven't been in a particular situation. Pastors do that almost every Sunday depending on their sermon topic...
My parents were introduced to him in the 80s by friends. Consequently, we attended the seminars every year. Growing up in Metro Detroit, we attended the live conferences at Cobo Hall. The advanced seminars were also held locally. I'm 50 years old now, and didn't realize just how damaging his teachings were and how deeply they wounded me. I watched the documentary that was released last year and then went down that rabbit hole. I'm shocked and appalled at just how far reaching and how damaging this cult was. I still catch myself repeating *Gotherdisms* and upon the realization of this, thanks to the Holy Spirit, I stop myself and reframe them with Biblical truth.
Thank you for bringing increased awareness to this topic as it's desperately needed. 🙏
As one of Bill Gothard's pilots in 1979-80 during the 1980 scandal and having known Bill for over 50 years and marrying his executive secretary (one of the abused women of the scandal), I find Ron and Don's investigation and conclusions are very justified and spot on. Their book is solid and worth reading. Like most false teachers not all their teaching is heretical, but some is and misused by both the teacher and some of his followers. This is the case with Gothard. He did not practice what he taught and was and remains unrepentant of those abuses and sins.
Thanks for your testimony
I attended Bill Gothard seminars in Detroit in the early 80's. I was a new Christian but found some of his teachings to be very odd. Now 40 some years later, I see that many of his teachings were not biblical. Yikes
Could we say that "Nobody is wrong 100 per cent of the time"?
@Larnegabriel5604 you are truly a truth seeker. Your testimony has opened many eyes and hearts. My family is destroyed by gothard’s teachings. As a parent sucked into iblp/ati I have repented and daily pray for my 4 apostate children. 💔💔💔💔
I'm with Shelly White below. Found the Biblical principles taught to be relevant to real life, but I understand the resistance and how the emphasis is to demean the person, which is easier than taking a deep dive into the textual context of the scriptures being referenced. I thought the comment that "someone can take a teaching and misapply it" to justify a particular action/belief. This is why the Apostle Paul commended the Bereans. We need to individually be faithful to scripture and not be followers of any man. The authority issue always comes up and your limited critique (the centurion example) is not convincing in a fuller understanding relative to your "complementarian" discussion. One final point, I never heard Gothard give the definition of "grace" you attribute to him. I do thank you for going directly to him to discuss your concerns. This is how it should be done and it would be interesting to see whether Ms Childers would invite Bill Gothard on to defend himself.
I disagree with you. The Bible teaches us to be modest. Bill Gothard tells everyone what that looks like according to him. People in his organization and IBLP alumni who regularly attend his seminars, adhere to his teaching and comply with his rules of how to dress and do your hair etc in order to be accepted by others in this cult. Stop following man-made rules that are supported by either twisting scripture or taking it out of context and learn the Word of God for yourself. This is what always happens when you idolize a mere man.
What part of "We need to individually be faithful to scripture and not be followers of any man. " Did you miss in my comment you have replied to? The total rejection of the seminar teaching based upon disagreement with some part of it is apropos to throwing our the baby with the bath water.
I have heard people use Proverbs 31 to justify a woman having a career--leaving her dependent children in the care of others (often strangers, for pay). Yes, a woman's tasks are varied according to this chapter, but she does not neglect her family. Consider other verses that describe a woman's roles as wife and mother (Titus 2:3-5, Psalm 113:9, 1 Timothy 5:14) and the descriptives of the lives lived by widows taken in the count in 1 Timothy 5:9-10.
Legalistic, destroyer of faith
I was saved at Bill Gothards basic youth conflicts in May 1973. I have been serving and loving Jesus for 50 years. But thanks for your information. God bless.
As we know, God can use anyone. He even gave speech to a donkey in the Old Testament. My Mom loved Mike Warnke, who we all later found had made up his stories, but something he said moved my wonderful, godly Mama'd heart.
She took us to a Bill Gothard event in the early 1980s. I still remember how incredibly painful just being there one night was. Thankfully we were watched over & my father said the events were lasting too late for kids, so we only went one night. But the books, being told to put a picture of a sloth on my wall? To call me a sloth if my room was not perfect? Again, very watched over or I would have thought Jesus was as cruel as Bill Gothard. A man who never married, had no children, lost his ministry for being inappropriate with underage girls.
I'm glad we both know Jesus, and that God can use really anyone.
@amylynnhunt55 I remember Mike Warnke too. He gave some interesting messages for sure! Could you share what you heard specifically on the first night of the Basic Seminar that you found incredibly painful? I remember the first night teaching on the 10 unchangeable aspects of life. Things like nationality, gender, birth order, socioeconomic level, etc are things we don't get to choose when we are born. God will use all these aspects of our lives in the wonderful plan he has for us. There was no teaching on a sloth, or putting one on a childs wall. (And no books are distributed till the last day of the seminar on Saturday.) Perhaps your parents just thought that up. 🤔 Sorry it happened to you, but Bill Gothard's teaching was not cruel at all. If he was, could you please specify what pages in the textbook or what particular teaching?
@amylynnhunt55 I agree with you that holding a girls hand is wrong, or tapping her foot under the table which several girls have accused him of. I don't excuse his behavior, and it was right to discipline him for that. But that doesn't make all of the contents of the seminars wrong.
@@beckysmith6375 I think it's a common dilemma if you've purchased materials from a ministry, and you later hear of corruption, deception, or immorality in the ministry. Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater? Can the same fountain produce bitter water and sweet? Regardless of logic or truth, there is the emotional side, too. I literally have a pain in my stomach and feel nauseous because of some things that have been uncovered. I scraped to buy Gothard's materials. Now I cannot bear to use them, and I hate to throw them away because they were so difficult for me to buy. Yet some of the teaching was wrong. Do I now spend my limited time examining every point, or just not use it? I can honestly remember at least one beneficial realization as a result of the seminars. But some was harmful and traumatic. I haven't sorted it all out. I'm just thankful that we spared some of the harm experienced by some of my close friends. My kids were able to differentiate the "foolishness of man's preaching," and the character of God. But many of their peers have rejected both Gothard and God.
@@beckysmith6375 I wonder if the sloth was from the Character Sketches, the very expensive books with beautiful pictures of animals and accompanying stories comparing their traits to behaviors we should or should not have. Based on the teachings, it's very believable that a parent would think that is an appropriate way to teach the child not to be a sloth, whether the material actually said to put a picture on the wall or not.
There were people in our church who were very into Gothards teachings and the courtship vs. Dating rubbed off on us. We had only one daughter and wanted to do things right. A local Pastor's son from another church took an interest in her, they married and it was a disaster. He was all kinds of abusive except physical. She stayed for 13 years before she finally felt free to leave after there were Biblical grounds. I could write a book now on what parents need to watch for but he was so good at talking the talk. The first call I got of her crying on the phone was the honeymoon. As soon as the vows were taken, and the reception was over, he switched. Neither of their grown children have any contact with him by choice.
What a sad story! But, the root problem was thinking that someone who courts is fraud proof. Whether a person dates or courts there is a chance of connecting with someone who is a fraud. The take away is to vet someone really well no matter who they are.
Judy, I am SO sorry to hear of the sorrow your daughter (and you as her parents) walked through! That must have been heart-wrenching for you. I grew up in a family that used Bill Gothard's homeschooling curriculum, so I was surrounded by the teachings on courtship from a young age. I would be curious what you would write if you wrote a book. I have thought for years that the whole courtship movement has damaged countless lives. If you have observations on what parents need to watch for, I feel like that would be incredibly valuable for a lot of people.
What has "courtship" got to do with an abusive man? Answer: nothing.
Courtship was used for thousands of years, and "betrothal" as well.
That is the time when the FATHER vets the man.
It is NOT "courtship" or Gothard that destroyed your daughter's marriage, it was the abusive man, and you all could've done a better job of learning what sort of person he was BEFORE you handed your daughter over to him. There were likely signs prior to the wedding, which would've been highlighted had the FATHER taken time to get with the son-in-law on an ongoing basis to pray with him; instruct him as to what marriage looks like, etc..
Also: Do you somehow not know that Satan wants to destroy our children and families? What responsibility do you as parents take, as to understanding Scriptures warnings to not be deceived; to not be taken in by gainsayers; to he DILIGENT in how you LEAD the family in righteousness and godliness?
Why do you feel able to blame an outsider for YOUR failures??
Such is society in this day: Look for anyone ELSE to blame for my own lack of diligence and forthrightness.
I grew up in & around churches and people who attended Gothard seminars. My parents had previously attended Basic & Advanced, and I attended the Basic in my teens. My dad was a pastor and we homeschooled, but were not ATI.
A fellow pastor became more heavily involved in "Gothardism." Our families were very close friends, but as they became more involved in ATI, they became more & more extreme...to the point of even rewriting their church's hymns to remove the "evil of syncopation." After I married & moved away, we lost touch.
Years later, the precious, sweet daughter of the family had been courted by the son of another Gothardite family. Less than a year after their marriage, the fellow murdered his wife, who was also newly pregnant. He shot her in the back, staged it to look like a breakin, then went to his job as an EMT. When he returned home, he called 911 to report a breakin & murder. Later he admitted to the crime. Only 19 at the time of the wedding, he had felt pressured into the courtship & marriage by both families. When she got pregnant, he panicked. He felt murder was more acceptable than divorce. (Google Couty Alexander for more of this story).
I truly believe my childhood friend would still be alive if it were not for some of these extreme teachings.
I find your content valuable often, Alicia ... But the music before your commercials is so loud, I honestly am thinking about just not watching. It's so jarring, especially if I'm listening through headphones.
Any man who gets married in his 20's has a LOT to learn about leadership. Christian wives follow the leading of their husbands out of duty to Christ, don't kid yourselves, men. You are super lucky if you have a wife who will do this while you stumble along, learning how to lead.
When the spirit of the age is self will and rebellion no one wants to be told differently.
Exactly.
went 4 times in the early 70's as part of my bible school curriculum, so did my girlfriend who is now my wife of 47 years. Was he perfect, no but it was one of the great biblical seminars of the day. brought so many families back together. I'm a graduate of 2 bible schools, have taught bible, preached in many places, my 9 kids are incredible and run my businesses. What can I say. It worked for me. Oh and my kids love Jesus also.
Honoring God and His Truth are very different than 'it worked for me'
@@paulvoit5610 True, but judging people long after the fact is for what purpose? to show how smart you are? Nay sayers sit on their butts and pretend to be wise while criticizing those who had massive ministries.
@paulvoit5610 the Seminars prompted in me a greater desire to honor God and His Truth than I had
had before. And it gave me concrete ways to do it such as memorizing Scripture, and using Scriptire to bless others. How is that not honoring to God?
@@beckysmith6375 that was my experience as well.
@@RodneyKoop Judging with righteous judgment before or after the fact is a command of Jesus in the Gospels. It is for the purpose of following Jesus and His Word which is Holiness.
attended a byc seminar a few times with many other youth...the seminars were very helpful to us teens...
I was raised in a cult-ish church with heavily IBLP principles, along with its Christian school. My parents were young Christians and were wanting to raise us, their kids, in a safe and Godly environment. This made our family easy prey. Going to the seminars was mandatory for all of us each year in high school, and this was after most of the adults in our church had been for many, many years. I remember being exhausted and hungry and sleep deprived by the end of it. It all became common vocabulary in our church and school. Luckily we left shortly after I graduated high school but for my whole family and I it has required decades of reprogramming, luckily with the Bible, Jesus, and each other!
Sleep deprived 😂
@@wawabbit “I remember being exhausted, hungry and sleep deprived.” Ridiculous statement.
And the other one is “My parents were young Christians, and were wanting to raise us, the kids, in a safe and godly environment. This made our family easy prey.“ I mean you really have to be delusional to think that since your parents set out to raise godly children that you are now “easy prey”. Sadly no one ever mentions that mr gothard filled every hour of the seminar with scripture and then more scripture. That’s why when anyone criticizes mr Gothard it has to be accusations about his personal life because the scriptural principles he brought forth that are in black and white for anyone to critique and that has never been done…and so they start slinging mud to sell their books and tv shows.
@@wawabbitThe conference went until 10 pm every night of the week, and there was school during the day. Then the weekend was all day. People who lived out of town had a lot of travel time.
My pastor told my in 1973 as I was headed off to California Lutheran Bible School in Los Angelos, "you can learn from many people, books, seminars and etc. just be discerning because no one person has the total truth." However I see so many nay sayers throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater and getting nothing for their efforts except more pride. :)
I found it helpful for me and my family. We were involved in a small way. The important thing is our relationship with GOD through His beloved Son Jesus. Outside of that, we ate the chicken but not the bones.'
I disagree. MANY MANY people have grown in the Lord through Bill Gothard,s teaching. Why are you trying to tear him apart? It is amazing to me that we have an epidemic of UA-camrs that are really on the Rampage, thinking God has called them to destroy others.
You should ask people who were really benefited by Bill Gothard to come on and speak....that would be the HONEST thing to do!
I don't believe I will be listening to any more of your videos because I believe they are tearing people apart and not building up. Shameful.
Because Bill Gothard is a false teacher. From his Basic Seminars in the 70s to ATI.
I was there in the early days. The environment was stiff and inflexible. Lots of rules. Permission was required to date. Some really uptight people. It was miserable.
@@greggpurviance7252can you be specific?
People hear one side and in this case two men defraud another man and that without evidence. If they brought Gothards material in and showed the biblical principles that he taught the host would be appalled at the accusations and insinuations. Sad. Truly sad.
@@kernelofwheat defraud? Really? Bill twists scripture & approaches the Christian life by law rather than faith. His own interpretations come directly from God. He had a long term pattern of abuse mostly at "headquarters" but not only there, apparent games of footsy while in transportation. Some was helpful, like financial wisdom, but overall, his teaching was false. Like most cults, many won't leave the leader
In the mid 80s I attended 6 basic seminars and 2 advanced seminars. For 9 years I homeschooled my 2 daughters, 2 of those years from the ATI. Not for one moment did I ever feel as if I was part of a cult. And I have very strong discernment. Oh, and I am a woman. My now grown daughters will attest that they were never abused, in any fashion. In any environment of authority or someone else's influence, even your Church, you should live your life prayerfully and in obedience to God's Word. There were things within the program that I dismissed, but as a whole it was beneficial in guiding me in my Scriptural approach to life. And, no, I am not a legalist.
❤ Thank you for speaking up.
Very similar to our experiences. Our grown sons learned many good skills from the program as a whole. Our oldest son is glad he went through the rigorous Alert program. We are thankful for the IBLP ministry.
Went to Bill Gothard seminar in 1980s. Never sensed a 'cultic' spirit being that I was being vexed by other groups (from Oneness Pentecostals to Hyper Calvinists) . Gothards view on simple Faith alone Salvation comforted me.
Scripture Memorization was one of the many lessons that supported my Methodism upbringing.
I agree - the ambiance was one of serious Christians seeking to not just know the Word of God, but apply it more effectively. I can attest that the seminars turned me away from a rebellious track I was on in the late 70's. So many others were helped by applying the 7 basic biblical principles. There's another side of this story which should be told!
@beckysmith6375 He was unmarried and childless teaching on married life and raising children. 🤔 Yeah, no thanks.
@reesecop Sorry to contradict you, but he was teaching what the Bible said about marriage and children. His seminars contained more Bible references than any other conference I've attended. Jesus taught about marriage and children, too, and he was single.
Legalism & tradition can seem comforting for a time because I think it provides a sense of control, but at the end of the day it leads to much personal turmoil, doubt, insecurities. Did I do enough, did I follow all the rules ...The truth of the Word of God is enough to bring peace, structure, comfort ....whatever our need is. God's grace is sufficient for our salvation & everything else. Really studying the Word of God personally, asking God to continue to give us understanding & honestly growing closer to Him will give you true joy, peace & freedom.❤
Terrible! you all should be ashamed of yourselves! AUTHORITY DOES MATTER!!! I could see if Mr Gothard told people to drink cool aid and bow down and worship him .. Mr Gothard gave PRINCIPLES, and they can be found in the word of God....I went to his seminar 30 yrs ago, and let me tell you, I was grounded in God's word, I grew and flourished, thanks to the Lord Jesus, and it didn't " scar" me at all!! The problem in today's church is AUTHORITY is considered a dirty word, its all about "love" and " good vibes" and " positivity" ... preachers today sound like sleepy , dopey cry babies, it's all about meeee, make me feel good, dont upset me by telling me I am under authority... well, I guess if they don't respect Jesus Christ role as LORD , how can you expect them to respect any authority!!!
Exactly.
When the spirit of the age is self will and rebellion no one wants to be told differently.
That's why Jesus Christ died, was buried and arose from the dead according to the Scriptures, He is the Savior of the world who died for ALL sinners. Sin began in the garden of Eden, not in this age.
Having been through the seminars several times in the 80s and 90s, i benefitted much. The principles are wonderful if taken moderately, including authority. If some took authority too far, I had not been aware of it. Other princples are like the differences between complimentarian an paternalism.
“Complementarian” is a word that people grasp onto the parts that they want to be true-the spectrum starting to be discussed at minute 57. All three of you are saying you believe in complementarianism and then define it in a soft way. You have very little in common with a hard complementarian. The problem is you’ve put yourself in that camp; people who define complementarian that harder way are encouraged-but you’d say it’s unbiblical if pushed on it. Wasn’t it John Piper who wrote that women needed to be careful giving a man directions, for crying out loud? And here these two men are treating Alisha as an equal in this teaching sphere-unheard of in these circles. It’s hypocritical of you to claim those who won’t be defined by the work “complementarian” as progressive Christians. They would say you were a progressive Christian.
“Word”, not “work”
When the spirit of the age is self will and rebellion no one wants to be told differently.
Exactly.
Thank you! Great interview! I grew up in this movement and am thankful that errors are being untangled from the truth.
Thank you for addressing this 😮😅
There are many principles I learned as a teen that have been a great blessing to me for all of my life. Understanding that God places authorities in our lives to protect us and to provide for us. Understanding how God made each of us uniquely and how important it is to trust the Lord and accept his design. Learning how to make a proper appeal to those in authority over me has been a great blessing in all of my life. Learning the importance of forgiving others and how to yield my rights. It is very sad the sinful choices that Gothard made later in his life. But his teachings have been a great blessing to me for so many years.
What "sinful choices" are you talking about?
You mean the accusations? Is he responsible for accusations? Nothing was ever proven. Ever.
It's so strange that many so-called "christians" fail to do their own homework , but instead rely on others to do it for them. A person COULD actually go read all of the court papers, for instance. I did.
Yes there are examples of people who followed well like Joash while jehoiada the priest guided him and then after dying the false people in the kingdom led him into idolatry please see christadelphian bible study and Christadelphian videos for great learning worldwide speakers from Australia New Zealand and Europe and North America
I heard the umbrella illustration as a homeschooler. I didn’t realize that’s where it came from until I heard Jinger Vuolo talking about it.
I attended the seminar and feel the criticism is being exaggerated from what I hear.
I was blessed in receiving the little button -PBPWMGINFWMY- Please be patient with me God is not finished with me yet.
The teaching of protection only extended from God to Christ to me as I remember.
The most beautiful description of baptism I ever heard.
If he was as far off as you are representing him I would have walked out the first ten minutes.
There is so much hearsay evidence that would not be admitted in court. Guilty anyway.
He will be judged for his works by Christ.
I was given training as a child that when I go to the grocery store I don’t buy everything. I use discernment.
When i see the spiritual immaturity and biblical ignorance on modern-day evangelicals, i yearn for the teaching of Bill Gothard. At least, he pointed everyone to the Bible. I never became a follower of the IBYC or of Gothard, but i regret what the church lost with his fall. Study John Calvin and Martin Luther, and you find domineering, imperfect men with imperfect teaching. That is not a reason to publicly scorn them. Be careful, with the measure you measure others, you too with be measured.
I wondered how God feels about all this. I feel that this is slandering another sinner publicly of whom Christ died for. Do you think they are trying to solve a problem that belong to God without realizing that there is none righteous, no not one as written? Even themselves! Gotha, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Whitford etc.etc... they were all imperfect preachers but they had converts to Christ too. We will all be standing before God one day and NOT any man or podcasters on the judgment day.
I don't understand why these UA-cam content creators don't reach out to us who were helped by the Bill Gothard seminars and ask for our side of the story? There are surely thousands of us!
@@beckysmith6375plenty of people would say they were helped in false religions or other cults, however in looking at the umbilical and even harmful or
abusive teachings and actions by leadership, this stuff needs to come out. There are so many who are still in it or are suffering repercussions and need counseling and good biblical instruction for healing. You can surely express your opinion. I'm wondering would the Duggar parents give a glowing report of the teachings? They seem to have made lots of mistakes and their children were hurt.
I scorn the hypocrite Gothard, the murderer Calvin, and the anti-semite Luther, and I'm proud to do so. Be glad you never followed Gothard. If you did, I don't think you would have such a high regard for his so-called biblical teaching.
I agree. I think this video is shameful!
My youth group went to Basic Youth Conflicts in 1978. My mom really didn’t want me to go. On the way home one evening I had a meltdown and announced to all the kids in the van that Gothard’s Jesus was not the same as my Jesus! Wow, how right I was!
The opposite happened to me I went to Basic Youth Conflicts in 78' I was a new Christian and his BTC teaching catapulted my theology in a wonderful way. He taught me the Sound principles of obedience not in a legalistic way but in a way I could understand that made sense biblically. God Bless this man in his old age. I did hear that he got off track some subjects like it is sinful to wear a beard???? Yet I believe not to thrown the baby out with the bath water.
@MaryLewis-jt5jx thanks for your comment. I don't remember anything in the Basic and Advanced seminars about beards, but I do remember some teachings on styles of music. I pondered that subject for months wondering about it, and looking up references in the Bible. In the end we decided not to worry about the style or beat of the music and just screen out songs with offensive lyrics for our family. So we didn't follow Gothard on the music. It's not an all or nothing deal! Take what's useful to you and leave the rest!
@kimqwingert8967, Your comments are interesting, but I and my family had the opposite experience. We were so thrilled that the Lord Jesus had helped us find this helpful seminar! It even helped our friend who attended while she was being treated for cancer. It gave her a deep peace just a few weeks before her death.
@@MaryLewis-jt5jxit was against company policy to have facial hair.
@@beckysmith6375The presentation at the seminars was a facade. Back at headquarters in Oak Brook the organization was dysfunctional and filled with very unhappy employees.
I went to a set of talks with my next door neighbor in the early 1980s. He made some important points in his talks that helped me through some difficult times and helped me repair my relationship with my mother in law.
That was a good episode. I repented of believing that enneagram.
Good to know kimwright. You saved me wasted time and an hour or so of listening to this kind of talk which sounds more like gossip, derision, backbiting and the like. Nothing that resembles Christ Jesus. Thank you.
My wife and I attended a Bill Gothard seminar many years ago
while homeschooling
and rejected it as being to legalistic
I wonder if you find the bible too legalistic.
Although good intentions, this podcast was majorly void of scripture. Gotthard was a corrupt teacher, but this episode came across as gossip mostly void of biblical correction.
I went to the basic youth conflicts in June of 1977 and went with my friend and our moms and there was a lot I liked but some stuff I felt was wrong 🚩 red flags goin up but the Lord used some of the teaching on forgiveness & bitterness which was really good & helped my mom especially
Could you please share what the "red flags" were specifically? I also benefitted from the teachings on forgiving people and not being bitter. Do you remember how he encouraged those in the audience to call people who they had hurt or wronged, and ask for forgiveness of that person? I asked my dad to forgive me for being stubborn and not listening to him and my mom. It changed our family for the better!
Gothard does teach submission to authority, but he also teaches the ability to make a godly appeal.
My dad and I went to the seminars in the early 80's. One of the most harmful sayings was that if a girl was raped, it was only her body and this is how they told women to deal with it. What a horrendous thing to say to anyone. I don understand some of the people who comment how great he is. His ministry was rotten from the time he had the retreat center. There are a few pictures and testimony that he was not appropriate with the females. When you mix partial truth with falsity, many people cannot discern.
Good talk! Yes this is a prevelent teaching outside of BG too unfortunately 😢
33:20 What a stretch!I went to the IBLP three times and remember the teaching about authority under the umbrella. And I never heard any mention of what you implied that Bill gothen meant about if you stay under the proper authority. If I would have ever heard gothard mention what you implied he said, I would have walked out within 5 minutes. So sorry, but you've lost all credibility and I stopped watching.
Most of your testimony is “ here say” be careful about hurting the body of Christ. Focus on our real enemy. Please.
Having discovered Mr. Gothard in the mid 1990's, from the get-go I didn't agree with everything he taught. He taught a lot. That being said, I learned much good from his ministry. It was something I needed to better appreciate the word of God and how personal my Savoir is. Were people damaged by some of his teachings and attitudes? Most likely yes. Have I been damaged by them? I don't know for sure. Have I been damaged by others' attitudes? Yes. What about my faults. Most definitely I have caused harm. We all are guilty or will be. I think having an unforgiving spirit is a larger problem than committing an offense. Some of the things these gentlemen complained (black hair and shoe lifts) about are plain silly for them to even mention. And the Jesus getting back under authority issue? He may have needed to word it differently, but without a doubt I can tell you he was not trying to infer Jesus was sinning. You gentlemen know that. I think while you have revealed some legitimate concerns, (his brother and other things not mentioned here like adoption), I think he did a lot of good for most of the people that I know who went to his seminars. I hope as far as his brother is concerned, he realized his grave mistake and the damage that it did cause because it did. I don't think he is worthy of being called a cult leader. That is taking it too far in my opinion.
Thank you for this podcast. I was not familiar with Gothard other than hearing his name before. But many of the things you spoke of rings true with the history of the spiritual movement I was a part of from 15 years old and then for 44 years. There was definately a living word of God coming to us, and even though there were many with their heart in the 'right' place, sincerely wanting to walk with God and be given in every way we could, it became such a mixture of human nature dictating both the leaders and the led. We were vulnerable and increasingly succombed to the dictates of the flesh in so many ways. It became so controlling and overbearing, it took the place of a true walk with God and coming to know the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Thankfully God made sure that fellowship was put to an end, which was a very devastating but also liberating experience! I thank the Lord for being faithful to His promise of being a good shepherd!
"The LORD is my Shepherd" and my husband's shepherd. In a marriage, there's a male sheep and a female sheep. Shepherds don't marry their sheep. Gross.
So glad to see so many people have such positive comments. Because i've been thinking we should redo his matherial and start a program because it has done so much to build health Godly principles in people's lives.
You are addressing false teaching, but I would like to point out a statistic you cited in your advertising that is blatantly false. You stated that 85 percent of our beef is imported. According to the Iowa State Farm Bureau, 70 -80 percent of U.S. beef is grown in this country, only 20-30 percent is imported.
That report says ground beef. Not total beef import...
I'm neither for or against this man. I've heard the name but I learnt years ago, not to follow people.
It's interesting to me that today, as in politics and the rest of the world, we spend time and money making shows taking churches, pastors and teachers apart. It must break God's heart!
None of us are perfect! But God knows each heart!!
We're in the end times and the last thing we need is to display to the world over the internet, how critical we Christians are of each other. Watching these shows must confuse many hope-seeking people!
Time is very short. If we could just focus on sharing God's Word with compassion and urgency! Just like Jesus did!
Mr. Gothard was used greatly in my life in countless ways. I will always thank God for allowing me to attend the seminars and the Biblical teaching I heard on how to forgive others, the importance of loving children, not going into debt, honoring one’s parents, and so much more. Thirty years later my life is still greatly blessed from hearing these Bible principles from Mr. Gothard and choosing to follow God’s Word in these areas. I will always thank God for Mr. Gothard and I pray he will be greatly rewarded in heaven for how he helped me and so many others.
Wow! I’ll pray for you…please research false teachers…
@user-wi9bn8mt6b It's baffling to see a comment like yours, which totally dismisses the experiences and facts that another person has shared about their own life. Do you do that to people face to face? Or just on social media?
Yes, same here. It was at a seminar I first heard the gospel after attending church my whole life. I liked the basic principles on those things you mentioned. I believe certain parents were not following Gothard's teachings, but putting their own spin on things, rather than seeking the Lord through their own bible study. That's also THE main idea of Gothard's materials: Read, study, memorize Scripture!
People like to blame others for their own failings and lack of relationship with the Most High God. All of this WILL come out in the wash.
I too found many good things through Mr Gothard's ministry, but I recognized the errors of his teachings beginning in my late teens to early twenties and fully reject him now. If he said true things, others have said them too, and too much of what he said and taught is false, without scriptural support, and actively destructive.
@@music2myear
Name one false teaching of Gothard's. Just one.
Not saying I agree with him on all points, but I keep seeing and hearing that he's a cult leader and false teacher, but no one is saying the "what "
I had a pastor years ago who tried to warn me off of going to a seminar. He could not say the "what" either. Instead he sent me a couple of articles from friends of his who had never been to a seminar, and had never read any Seminar materials. That didn't stop them from railing against Gothard. We went to the seminar anyway. I had prayed about it all. Asked God to show me exactly what the issue was, and He did. It was one little sentence. Gothard mentioned that Jesus died for "all men." That preacher did not believe that. He believes that God only "chose" some for salvation.
- Interestingly, it was that exact statement that got me saved in 1980. I had believed that I was unredeemable. That I deserved hell, and that God could not love me again, after my heinous sins. When I heard that God loves even me, and that Jesus died for "all men," I said to myself: "I'm all men." In that instant, I was saved.
-No one shouls hang onto every word a mere man says, but God can and does raise up those who willingly give up their lives to teach others how to live in this worls until Jesus comes again. Would that we ALL would give up all of our precious *things* and desires for our lives, and dedicate ourselves to the Lord to the point that we willingly put ourselves into the target zone of the Enemy, as we preach the gospel to every creature, as commanded.
Ever since my first (of 2) Gothard seminars as a teen, I have though his definition of GRACE to be the most sensible and Biblically based definition of it that I've ever heard. He gave PLENTY of Scripture to back it up. And I've had 40 years since then to check that Scripture and to contrast his definition with others. Probably that, and his definition of modesty, have stuck with me more than anything else. ("Dress to draw attention to your face." Succinct and practical, and not more burdensome to women than to men. Also rules out burkas! Nice.)
"For by 'the power and desire to do God's will' are you saved, through faith. 'The power and desire to do God's will' is the gift of God, and not of works, lest we should boast." Make it make sense.
@@claycasassa4757 We are born with a desire to sin, so the desire to do God's will has to be a gift from Him. This is imparted first through the hearing of the Gospel. Romans 10:14 "How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard..." and from then on, reading and hearing Scripture generally. The power to do His will comes from the Holy Spirit, once we have faith. Romans 8:6 "The mind set on the Spirit is life and peace..." All faith is is trust that God is who He says and will do what He says. Salvation is not only justification, but also sanctification and glorification. I guess that Gothard's definition applies best to the sanctification part. Which after all, is the part that we as Christians live in from day to day.
@@amybee40 If Gothard had taught all of that, it would have been great. But he didn't. As Veinot points out, that's not what grace is.
@@claycasassa4757 He did though. He made a very strong Biblical case for his definition.
The Bill- ism I still like wad about deference. “ Limiting my personal liberty so that I may not offend another.”
If you are grounded in Christ, He will be your foundation in all truth and righteousness.I have always been led by the Holy Spirit of God.
I blame the Shepherding Movement and Gothard's teaching for the bad foundation of our marriage that we've never overcome. Well, obviously, I have dealt with this in my own mind, but I remain the subservient wife of a man who has not and constantly reminds me of his authority. Should have left 33 years ago when he had an affair, probably the worst decision of my life was to stay and believe God for our marriage.
There are several online groups of women who have suffered as you have. Search them out and find peace and freedom. Flying Free and Confusion to Clarity. Thousands of good, godly Christian women have been hurt and betrayed by this unbiblical authoritarian teaching. I, too, was a good submissive Christian wife for way too many years. It's death to the soul.
Wondering...I agree with Becky S as there are many positive things, especially at the beginning. I appreciate the teaching on spiritual gifts. Later on I went and was very uneasy-couldn't put my finger on it exactly, but realized when things hit the fan. What I am wondering is about the organization as it stands now...the present leaders are in a good position or not?
This is very inaccurate! They confuse a principle from the sin of men. It doesn’t make a principle invalid if men fail.
Praise the Lord for people like this to uncover and expose deception and lies. Thank you!!!
What lies? These men never read one line of text from any of Mr. gatherers teachings. They merely made accusations and false claims; some thing that according to proverbs, God hates such things.
My diligence to follow the Bill Gothard teachings on “Authority” ended up putting my life in danger in the military. I had a commander who was totally corrupt and had no good intentions whatsoever, but I remained in submission to his authority until it was almost too late. The teaching that the people in authority over you always have good “basic intentions” kept me from taking steps to protect myself when I should have. It’s a very long and complicated story, but even though I survived, I will bear the consequences of his evil actions as a doctor because he damaged my health for the rest of my life.
I'm so sorry.
Yes, sir. I think there is a big difference between your scenario and the majority of women whose heavy doses of feminism and Woke ideology cause them to feel “violent injury” when their infantile self-orientation is “wounded.”
We screw up women terribly with luxury and pampering in the USA.
In fact, there were more attacks on Moses than I have heard in this gossip column. All these slanderers who feel led to be the Inquisitors of the body of Christ should at least pick the direct clear lawlessness that exists in the main stream churches and attack unscriptural teaching directly, with Scripture, rather than rage like spoiled little girls about the authority of their fathers impinging on their self-orientation…or the hair color and shoe lift of the minister…
Dark hair, huh…brother, if that isn’t a gnat vs log issue, what is?
The modern day western Church looks far more like Diotrephes and Constantine than Jesus and the Apostles…and we hear more about the “mark of the Beast” than the virtual wedding ring SIGN between God and His faithful people!
Most reading this have never even heard of a SIGN between God and us:
“Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a SIGN between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, YHVH Elohim, sanctify you. 14You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death.”
Exodus31:13-14(esv)
Do you think I haven’t heard the carnal reasoning that supports that heretical Mt7:23 LAWLESSNESS? For goodness sake, this is the 4th Commandment, a Capital Crime and “above all” according to our soon coming King and Judge who will rule with a rod of iron! (no relaxing of Torah, even as He COMMANDS US NOT TO DO in Mt5:18)
INDEED, these are the days of lawlessness and deception…and as the children of those who did NOT take up their cross, but followed Constantine’s heretical prohibition of Sabbath, exchanged with Sun-worship-day (to this pagan day) along with Passover for Ishtar sex god invocation, in 321 AD, we have a lot of Rev22:14 robes to wash if we hope to awaken from the slumber of the casually foolish virgins and the rejection that they were so surprised to receive from Jesus. (!)
If you consider yourselves teachers, when did the (Lev26) seven-times punishment of Ephraim-my-firstborn (of the Spirit) who knows Messiah when He returns (Zech10:7 vs 12:10) END? Do the math from Ezekiel4.
Millions of Christians were called back to obedience to the Word when Ephraim’s punishment was complete, and of course, the “main stream church of lawlessness and casual virgins” attacked us in much the same way that the Essenes were attacked for keeping Torah closer than the Pharisees and killed or run out of town to live in a desert compound in Qumran that they referred to as Damascus.
Did you know that their main argument was over what calendar to use? Trivial, huh?
Well, the Essenes were never heard of again after Yeshua came, because THEIR BIBLICALLY CORRECT CALENDAR TOLD THEM EXACTLY WHEN MESSIAH WOULD COME!
Yes, the very first Christians were Essenes, the strictest followers of Torah of the three sects of Jews.
…not to BE saved, but BECAUSE of Salvation and FOR transformation by obedience to the perfect Law of Liberty.
(Psalm19:7, James1:25, Rev14:12)
You didn't listen well.
If an authority is saying to do something wrong, you first appeal to them, and you never go along with unbiblical or illegal things.
@@wawabbit, you didn’t read well. It was a military situation. You do not have the option to “appeal” when a direct order is issued. And you do not have the freedom to just leave the situation or to quit. I said it was complicated. It wasn’t as simple as being told to do something wrong. It was an abusive environment. If I had comprehended the malevolence at play, I would have gone to the Inspector General and reported the treatment and the fact that my commander was defying orders from Headquarters for a medical evaluation and he was forcing me to work while I was sick. My senior officer wanted me dead and was hoping I would go AWOL, (absent without leave which is a crime), or kill myself, but I didn’t realize it until the commander explained that she had been trying “to get rid of you for the past month, but you kept showing up for work”. After being in the hospital for a week unable to eat anything and only receiving IV fluids, I was suddenly ordered back to duty to work a 12 hour night shift even though I was still sick. I was ordered, “You WILL act strong, look strong and be strong whether you feel like it or not and if anyone asks you how you are, you WILL say that you are fine.”
Nothing in Bill Gothard’s teaching was helpful for my situation. I assure you it was harmful. By the time my commander complied with the orders from Headquarters, he had made himself to be my attending physician, a terrible conflict of interest, and he made false entries in my medical records that put my life in danger. If I had gotten the Inspector General to intervene, he would not have been allowed such access to my care or records. And I haven’t scratched the surface of how difficult and complicated the situation was. Therefore , your assumptions and conclusions are not correct.
@@fabergeartist5273
You contradicted yourself. You said you should've taken action, but you didn't "cuz of Bill..."
Give it up.😊
Your quote:
"...kept me from taking steps to protect myself when I should have."
John Calvin must have been a cult leader too. He was so authoritarian that he threatened and killed people if they disagreed with him.
Yes! Calvinism/Systematic Reformed Theogy is cultish, too. Their God decreed everything to happen before the beginning of time-including decreeing that mankind would sin. This makes God out to be evil and the author of evil. Thus is so false. The Quaran teaches that Allah decreed ahead of time everything that will happen- including decreeing that certain people should be suicide bombers, etc.
Calvinism is very insidious and it taking over churches at a rapid rate.
Around 19:00 his comments are not really correct about the word "grace". He is stuck in his evangelical filters
My husband and I were given information from Bill Gothard when we were going through infertility saying that we weren’t getting pregnant because we had “music with a rock beat” in our house😳 I was furious. I gave the material back to the man that gave it to us and told him how unbiblical and hurtful it was and to NEVER give that to any other couple struggling with infertility!! Ironically, he was a single man himself and never married because he was told it was wrong by Gothard material that it was sinful to feel sexually attracted to a woman he was dating, so he broke it off!! So twisted and destructive to so many lives!!
I remember as a teen going to a couple
Of conferences with our church…when he talked bout music and how “beats and rhythm ” could drive one to sin I tuned out.
Black Gospel music was prevalent in our house and didn’t fit the “criteria” gothard was spouting.
The fact that he told us what “real music” was bothered me… I went to my first Earth Wind and Fire concert that next week and STILL love the Lord to this day 🤷🏾♂️
*The Mystical Elemental connotation of EW&F did not affect my salvation 🥰
@reggie_redux I liked classic rock as a twenty something, and I did ponder whether I should give up my rock n roll. I searched the Bible and didn't find anything specifically about that, so I decided to just listen to music with decent lyrics and not to follow Gothard on that point. I think it should be stressed that when music changed in the 50's and especially 60's, many older church goers considered rock and roll the "devils music." My grandmother sure did. That was hardly a teaching invented by Gothard. I can happily say many of his other Bible teachings have helped me immensely. No need to throw out the baby with the bath water...
@@Big_RegCgood for you. Bill had a stick shoved pretty far up his ass.
Great interview! I went to IBYC 2 times in Seattle. He was a very charismatic communicator. You could hear a pin drop in the Seattle Coliseum with thousands in attendance. His view of authority was somewhat bothersome. I’m sooo glad I did not purchase his homeschooling curriculum when I was choosing curriculum for my kids…
This is all very disturbing and I pray for all those who’ve walked away from the faith over this…. 😢
I met a couple about 1987 who were considering joining ibyc. She explained it all to me but thankfully I wasn't hooked. Even so, I was married into an abusive / authoritarian Christian family which I eventually escaped from 38 years later. Authoritarianism and mysogyny were hand in hand ...
From Canada...we almost did! But we couldn't get the finances to travel to the HQ...@@tvdb5299
I was sucked into Gothardism in my early 20s as a relatively new Christian. I soaked it up like a sponge. It took a loooong time and a lot of deprogramming to disentangle from this teaching. I have so many friends from that same time that have denounced their faith, having been raised in this false gospel of legalism. I'm thankful that I wasn't raised in it, but it still did lots of damage.
This is so one sided, they are really working hard in this discussion to slant this through their lens in order to land the latest book deal. Bill’s techniques were weird but, a lot of people are living blessed lives as a result of him helping them understanding God’s word. This topic is just the latest bandwagon craze for podcasters, and Bill is just the low hanging fruit.
Agreed. Except for the "weird" part. I appreciate the way he breaks things down. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea. Likely because we all process things differently.
Also, I don't agree with everything Gothard says, just like I don't usually agree with all things from any man.
Check out your advertiser's claim about foreign sources of the U.S. Beef supply I do not think you want an apologetics podcast pushing false claims. I believe the amount of the beef supply from outside the country is about 10%
I thought the same. Personally, I buy beef from a local rancher. 😊
Gothard is an authoritarian not a complementarian, it's another thing entirely.
As a new Christian, I was impacted by Gothard, who told me that I had "no time" to get married because I needed to give all my time to God's work. I then steered clear of beaus.
I was scheduled to join a campus ministry but gave it up per Gothard. Totally misdirected my life.
Seriously? Why were you putting all your eggs in a teacher's basket? So to speak. It's as if you have no responsibility for your own actions. Strange. Do you do that with all teachers?
@@wawabbit How dare you! Teachers are biblically considered more responsible and legally counselors are, too. Gothard was for youth and young people and led many astray.
@@dcole6328
How dare I?
😅
YOU are responsible for you. If you took advice from someone, you are STILL responsible for you. NO amount of whining and blaming absolves you of the decisions that YOU made.
@@wawabbit Perhaps you have yet to be born again, as you go out of your way to accuse so many on this of whining and blaming and not taking responsibility. Maybe you are projecting parts of yourself you don't own up to?
I remember going to the seminars, I was always upset while I was going but the folks I went with were upset with me for having apposing views. I always felt he used a good approach to get his point across and pilling folks into the teaching. You would leave and wonder if you were wrong or were you about ready to be taken in. The authority issue was significant because I saw it in a number of churches I went to . Not a church hopper but involved in ministries so I was able to see much. A couple churches I attended had agape force and wywam involved deeply and their expectation of obedience was extreme. To many of those out there and once folks are trapped in the system its difficult to see the truth. Discernment was so important and still is.
I would not mind talking I am not on Telegram. Suggest a way please.
I'm no Bill Gothard fan, but I am a fan of good research. So much of what these two men have come up with is specious at best, if not spurious altogether
I attended both the Gothard Basic & Advanced courses, twice & God used it skyrocketed my faith & spiritual life. The practical Biblical principles I learned there God used to strengthen my faith & spiritual maturity. What a blessing those courses were to my Christian life. Can’t agree with your opinion.
I've been blessed by most of the people I've listened to who are involved with the ministry, ( prior to it being taken over) These people act like one man ran everything. As if. Anyway, we who know the truth can rest in the knowledge that God is still using the ministry to draw us closer to himself.
My ex husband and I attended this seminar and bought all the books… my then husband took his teaching to the limit… he became emotionally abusive all while living his double life.
As I have revisited his teaching and heard about his double life he got the total ick factor.
Satan loves this.
My wife and I were involved In Gothards BYC and home school program. I'd say he was basically out of balance especially on his authority teachings but also other areas in retrospect. He'd take a piece of paper and crease it in half, then to justify his extreme perspective, he'd say he had to crease it opposite in order to make it stand up straight. I'd say both extremes were wrong. The Reformation and the American Revolution were contrary to Gothard. He was out of balance and reactory to the 60's chaos that were then common in 60's and 70's. I've had to rethink Gothards influence in my life and I'd say it was truth out of balance and I was hurt tremendously trying to live out his dictatorial precepts.😢
When the spirit of the age is self will and rebellion no one wants to be told differently.
A lot of advertisements in these podcasts
I thought the same thing! It’s very annoying and distracting. At least put them all at the end.😊
The scriptures tell us that the Spirit is 1) The spirit of wisdom, 2) Understanding, 3) Counsel, 4) Might, and 5) the fear of the Lord. I see 1) wisdom as the high and perfect path and will of God.. 2) Understanding I see as understanding that a person went off the road and fell into a ditch and how that feels and is, 3) The spirit of counsel is how to get up out of the ditch and back onto the road, 4) The Spirit of Might is the power from the Holy Spirit to do all of that, and 5) The Fear of the Lord is how to stay on the road. I saw all of these dimension in Bill Gothard's teaching. The Teaching of perfection is not wrong. However, teaching perfectionism without the grace of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is toxic. Many I think took Gothard's teaching in this way and for them it was poison. The Spirit of Understanding includes compassion and grace. Maybe Bill did not teach enough of that. Such teaching cannot be forced from the outside. It must be taken in the light of the Beatitudes, which begin with 1) Blessed are the poor in spirit, meaning I need God's help. If people don't approach God's perfection with that response and understanding, it won't work. This is explained in the parable of the two men who went up to the temple to pray. One proudly stood there and said he had no sin so asked for not grace. The second beatitude is 2) Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted. This is crying over out sins and the sins of the fallen world. 3) Is blessed are the meek, which I take those who yield to God. These first three I summarize as "I cannot, I give up, I trust in your" to work your righteousness in me. I don't think Gothard taught this kind of imparted righteousness but instead came across as self-achieved perfectionism. The fourth step is 4) Hungering and thirsting for righteousness. These are how God's righteousness works into us. Romans talks about reckoning ourselves dead to sin and then Christ living His life through us. My experience is that these lessons and this growth takes a long time. It can't be imparted quickly from the outside. Nevertheless, Godly perfection included honoring one's parents, wives submitting to and honoring their husbands, and husbands laying down their lives for their wives and families, and so on. All good, but without living in the grace of the Gospel and with the Holy Spirit it just turns into another form of legalism which then becomes toxic. More about this empowerment and the exchanged life should have been taught.
The approach of starting with & launching for with 9 non-negotiable principles seems foreign to the teaching in the the Epistles directed to Christians in the Church Age. I should say that after a person understands the gospel & trusts Christ as Savior there are 2 essential principles to start with; & let other things fit into those 2: 1) Love God with all your strength (etc.) & 2) Love neighbor as yourself. In raising children I put forth 2 very important principles 1) pray before you discipline & trust God for wisdom in the matter, then 2) Gentleness is the default standard; the rod is an essential exception however (but never spank without #1 first, & remember "innocent until proven guilty")
the prov 31 woman is actually wisdom. the whole book of proverbs is not about women but wisdom
Thank you for pointing that out!
Really? Who can find a virtuous woman?--Proverbs 31:10 begins ... Verses continue, The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her... She will do him good and not evil... Her husband is known in the gates... Closing verses read, Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also... From Proverbs 31:10 to the end of the chapter, it is about a woman, her character, her roles as wife and mother, her wisdom, her interesting and varied duties...in other words, descriptors of a wise woman's life.
The anecdote about the woman with brain cancer is dubious; that is, I find it quite dubious that being pregnant encourages brain cancer, even if when asked some oncologist came out with an opinion on it. But I don't think that it loves wife as self to have excessive pregnancies, as it takes so much out of a woman. So she had a baby & didn't murder it becs she had a tumor in the brain. that is good. But turning around & getting pregnant again is daft, as she has been physically stressed by a tumor & brain operation. But we don't know how the woman wud have done without a pregnancy either. Now if the stories about Bill Gothard & girls are true (& I can't say I know these are true) It seems amazing that Bill Gothard who does not appear to have had the spiritual gift of celibacy (indifference to sex) appears to have disobeyed 1 Cor 7 which starts out in charging every man to be his own wife becs of the danger of fornication. A couple of exceptions are then given (gift of celibacy & imminent persecution. And it is obvious that if you work for somebody & let that person dictate to you whether or not to date or get married, that is bad. I recall how my Bible college demanded that students cud not get engaged or married without permission. There seems to be this carnal urge to dominate other people if a person gets the opportunity to do it.
False teachers talk about false teacher. "For Alisa's Merch:" - 2 Peter 2:1-3
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.