The best one out there in my opinion is from Southern Oregon Hot Bike and its Hydraulic. Never had any issues with it and it makes shifting and finding neutral a breeze. I throw one on every HD I have owned and recommend them to all of my friends. Can't beat it for $100
I worked at H-D at the time in the Engineering Dept (not an engineer). I don't remember the automatic chain tensioner being considered a problem related to the flywheel scissoring problem. The scissoring problem was a big deal at Harley and pressed together flywheel strength was studied extensively to determine cause(s). Several changes were implemented to reduce or eliminate the problem although there is only so much you can do with a pressed together flywheel vs a one piece forged crankshaft. Problems we found (to the best of my memory). 1. Production line parts cleaning fluid was not being changed often enough (to save money) causing parts with slight oil film to be pressed together. Study showed oily parts in press fit caused significant measurable decrease in flywheel strength. Solution- change parts washing fluid more often. 2. The flywheel truing process causes the press fit to be manipulated causing a decrease in flywheel press fit strength (the more the flywheel is trued by hydraulic press or old fashioned hammer blows, the weaker it gets). Solution was to possibly assemble the flywheel more accurately so that the flywheel would be true without any manipulation of the pressed parts. This is one of the reasons the flywheel runout tolerance was increased from the original 0.0015" as they found flywheels could not be pressed together without separate truing and meet the .0015" tolerance. 3. Larger displacement engine (110cu in vs previous 103,95,88) combined with bikes generally getting heavier over time and possibly some occasional engine lugging by folks not downshifting into correct gear when putting around a parking lot at low speed. There was a mechanic I worked with who was involved in studying the problem and he could scissor a flywheel on command by riding a bike ( I think he would lug the bike around slowly in too high of a gear and input lots of throttle). We've probably all done it and felt the herky-jerky motion created by not downshifting properly. Solution was to change the throttle calibration to not allow as much power input if the bike was in too high a gear for the current wheel speed. Lot's of police bikes were built with 103's (stock tuning) and to my knowledge the scissor problem didn't appear until the 110 motor was released in 2007 to the general public. 4. The straight roller left main bearing may contribute to scissoring problem by not holding the flywheel as rigidly as the previous tapered timken. I could see possibly where the automatic primary tensioner could contribute to the flywheel scissoring once the flywheel has begun to scissor as the flywheel output shaft running out of true would cause the primary chain to tighten/loosen/tighten possibly causing the tensioner to ratchet tighter and tighter over time. Not here to defend the automatic primary chain tensioner. It may be part of the problem but I don't think it is the only factor. There's my two cents.
That's a very heavy 2 cents and some awesome input! Likely why every Harley owners manual stresses to not lug that engine, that's a lot of force on the flywheels with the engine design!
That wasn't merely two cents' worth; that was two thousand cents. Fascinating and very well-written insights and account. Thank you, kindly! 👍 From southern California ~ Ride Forever! 🦅
It makes perfect sense that the automatic chain tensioner wouldn't be the only problem, but exacerbates a plethora of manufacturing related, and rider related issues. I could 100% see the case, though, that once it begins to scissor at all, the chain tensioner continuing to ratchet tighter and tighter would significantly accelerate the process. GREAT information from both Gixxer and Mike.
Hey GF, your channel has grown because you provide quality content that is pertinent to HD riders. Until today I have never heard of crankshaft scissoring or problems with the automatic chain tensioner. That's why I come here.
Thank you I really appreciate it! It's just a lot of obscure things I've learned over the years, I see too many people buy a used Harley only to have a major issue.
Pressed crankshafts are and always will be prone to twisting out of line if used wrongly. SPG made excellent racing crankshafts using a pressed construction for vw flat four engines. Bullet proof until you held high revs and dump the clutch. Instant wrecked engine cases. Use it conservatively and you will not have a better balanced crank. As for chain tensioners. Automatic tension devices are for cam chains and where maintenance wants to be reduced. Far better to remove the need and use a gear train instead. As for belts. They are for holding up trousers.
Harley increased the allowable run-out so they could weasel their way out of warranty claims. That's one of the things that definitely left an impression on me about the Integrity of Harley-Davidson as a company.
Talk about the HARD-ON the EPA/DOT has had for HD Since at least 1995 at mininum.. This is a Huge Part of the Multitude of Problems with HD these Days. And another part is the New Age Bean Counters.
ABSOLUTELY the the Chain Tensióners are part of this Abortion. Along with Super High Pressure Valve Springs. Hey Fellas!! Stay below. 550 Lift and 5800 RPM and your Twin Cam will live longer PERIOD!! And for the 'B' Motors find a Electionic Balancer.. Do the Crank a Throw the Balancers Under the Work Bench Plug the Oíl Hole and Forget about it . And Install a Manual Chain Tensióner.. Or Better Yet get yourself a S&S V111 EVO. Have Fun ✌️
@@donalbershardt9290 The Yamaha Road Star NEVER had a "multitude of problems" in sixteen years of manufacture starting in 1999 - EPA/DOT or no EPA/DOT. Air cooled single pin solid crank with side-by-side automotive style rods set at 48 degrees. Gear driven, pushrod activated cams. Gear driven primary. Four valve heads. Belt final drive. So that's the end of that biased and highly erroneous assessment. Rather, Harley's multitude of problems where cause by, well, the Harley-Davidson Motor Company in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. 😏
I put a Screamin Eagle manual tensioner in my softy bout a year and a half ago and wish I had done it sooner, yeah, a little more work to adjust it but I don’t have to worry about my chain feeling like a guitar string especially when laying a roller lol. Shifts better too and the bonus is by taking the outer primary cover off once a year, I can really see the condition of everything and thoroughly clean/inspect everything.
Your logic makes perfect sense to me. In light of this information, I think I'd rather have a manual tensioner. I'd be ok with checking the manual tensioner once in a while if it kept that stress off of everything else. Great info, as always.
@@GixxerFoo Thought about getting the automatic and read about some problems with them on HD's website. Decided that it is easier to do it manually. There is no visible wear on mine at 54k miles so...don't fix it if it ain't broke.
I took the automatic tensioner out of my dyna at 25 k miles and replaced it with a Hayden M6 .The bike now has 104 K miles and going strong . I like the hayden unit as it is so forgiving .
Great video sir! You're very literate and easy to follow. (Many people posting videos don't know what they're doing) I bought an '09 FLHX new. Of course, they're all great when new, but eventually I suspected something was not right. I read blogs from different sites about the auto tensioner and decided to take a look. I discovered that my primary chain was as tight as a piano string! Along with that, many bloggers also found their clutch hub splines broken on the inboard side of the hub. I found this problem on mine also. The majority of the splines were broken and pieces lying in the bottom of my primary. Some of the pieces were up to 3/8 inches. So, I bought a new clutch hub, clutch hub bearing. I also replaced the inner primary bearing. (noises) Bloggers complained too, that the compensator was not strong enough for the 96, so I replaced the original with a recommended S.E. compensator. Yes, the auto-tensioner is garbage! Even though the cost of a different tensioner would not "break the bank", I altered my original tensioner to make it a manual adjuster. (I liked the components of the original) It cost me about $1.00 for a long stainless screw and nylock nut. Again, I can afford new parts, but at this point I'm pretty disheartened with the whole scenario, so in defiance, used my head instead of my wallet. Currently, I have roughly 55k on my bike, and I like my bike. I shouldn't have to buy another to alleviate issues. But, every year now, it seems more issues keep popping up. I believe I have a collapsed lifter, but haven't addressed that yet. I believe the faulty auto-tensioner has caused much of the mentioned issues, and there may be more to be found. This is not right. You'd think that after all these years, Harley would be able to build a better product, or at least stand behind what they do build by fixing their mistakes? In a perfect world, maybe.........
Thank you, I appreciate it! Harley just really went for more production and reduced costs while still keeping the premium price tag. The auto tensioner is for sure a huge contributor to a lot of the issues, good thing you found that broken clutch!
When I did my last build, I went with Hoban Brothers Darkhorse Man O War crankshaft (they ensure it's balanced then weld the pin and provide a certificate with your total runout numbers), their Man O War compensator sprocket (in my opinion a better/simpler design than Baker's with the added benefit of being serviceable/rebuildable), and Southern Oregon Hotbikes HB125-07 primary chain tensioner. Topped her off with a Rekluse clutch and now she is smooth as silk.
I really like Dark Horse products, I feel their compensator eliminator with the cush drive was just absolute genius. It's really all you need in there and it works, like you mentioned rebuildable too!
I'm a new subscriber since purchasing my first HD. It's a used, 2011 Heritage Softail w/ a stock 103 engine. I've wrenched plenty of bikes over nearly five decades but never really messed around with Harleys. What I like about your vids is that you offer food for thought. This vid is the perfect example. What came first, the looser tolerances or the automatic chain tensioner? As an old British bike fanatic (mainly Bonnies and Tridents) I'd put my money on the auto-tensioners for messing things up more than the looser tolerances. Mind you the old Triumphs never had auto-tensioners but sure had plenty of people that over-tightened the dog poo out of the primary chains...leading to various ugly disasters. Anyhow, keep up the good work GixxerFoo. For a young guy you sure have your finger on the finer technical issues, good and bad, of this Milwaukee iron, and that's commendable. The devil's always in the details isn't it?
Thank you for the subscription, I really appreciate it! The devil really is in the details, the auto tensioner cam after the looser tolerances. The loose tolerances started on the 88 but it had a manual tensioner. We didn't see these issues on the 88's, the problem started in 2007 with the 6 speed transmission. It was blamed on the trans which had some seal issues and then the compensator failures the same year. The only thing that was changed was the auto tensioner over the manual. On a Harley it's best to err on the side of caution and run it a bit looser, tighter on a Harley isn't always better in the drive train.
Everytime I watch one of your videos it always gives me a warm & fuzzy about keeping my 02 RKC with its manual primary chain adjuster among other things you've talked about. When I change the primary fluid about every 5K, I give the primary chain a wiggle. If it's maybe a 1/2" at most, I call it good. I've adjusted it twice in 78.5K miles. Bike continues to hum along like it's still new. Congrats on 25K subscribers. Awesome! My favorite Harley channel. I miss the sagging shelf too.
That is awesome! I appreciate the support! It really doesn't need to be adjusted much, they don't stretch a whole lot just casually riding. I would for sure hang onto your 2002!
Plus you have a hot forged crank as well as the Timken bearing(s) on the sprocket shaft - both of which features were eliminated in '03. I reckon you've addressed the cam chain tensioners.
Been using Haydens M6 primary chain tensioner since 1998 on my 86 FLT. No problems so far. This video gives me another reason to look at our 2014 FLHTCU with suspicion lol. Been subscribed since the shelf was sagging. Your content has always been good. Keep it up!
Own a stock TC88 02 FatBoy w manual tensioner. I always check the tension when doing the primary fluid change, and have barely needed to adjust it over the years. Like you, I like the idea of knowing what the tension is set to. I had the opportunity to change to the automatic adjuster, but felt the constant tension was too much, all the time. I felt that if I ever really needed to in the future, I could easily do it. That was over ten years…and I found no reason to change. Great video as always 👍😎
Good stuff, I have an '05 15th anniversary Fatboy with the old style primary adjuster like you, I love it also. Was adjusting the chain last night 5th gear plugs out very hard to turn the rear wheel feels like a hard spot in the crank, try to get the chain 5/8 to 7/8 cold, but it seems like one size is really small and the other side is huge? stretch chain maybe.? Ty
That's a excellent plan! After a OEM compensator fails I always recommend going with the SE, oddly it's cheaper and for sure better than OEM. With the manual tensioner kept adjusted you shouldn't have any issues going forward.
I had that done ... new rods and had crank tried and welded.. ended up getting a runout of 0.0008" at the cam plate checked... and got the timing bearing done to the case.. smooth as silk
You have earned that following my friend! I bet you probably have as many miles on your wrenches as you do on your bike. Your presentations are very comprehensive and well explained. Like most, I suspect... even though my '07 XL 1200 Custom is running great, there is usually something not quite right or I outright want better performance that I am certain lurks underneath. I tend to go for performance over speed and after studying the issues, and gotten "other's opinions" ...I ultimately come back to your tutorials and follow your advice and suggestions. I have been thrilled with the results!! For the record, one move was to swap out oem plugs and wires and getting Screaming Eagle plugs and the Phatt wires. The improvement achieved from that was real and significant; I did not dream it up. The other adjustment I made was to swap out the factory mufflers on my '03 883. You demystified (for me anyway) the various exhaust theories and options along with equipment recommendations. Ther was no doubt in my mind what would be the best setup for what I wanted. I put on some Stage 1 SE mufflers and was totally blown away!! The net consequence of that was performance that was more like a motor job than a muffler job! You have won my confidence and respect! I won't be going anywhere except back to your channel come time for my next project. Wishing you and your family a Happy Thanksgiving!
Glad to hear you are enjoying the videos, that’s what it’s all about! I am really happy to hear that, I started this channel on the basis of things I have seen over the years and experienced myself. Things I wish I knew before I bought my first Twin Cam 88 and blew the motor.
@GixxerFoo Oh man!! I'm sorry to hear about your Twin Cam 88, ugh! If it's any consolation, I sometimes believe I've been saved a couple of catastrophies ala your videos. Thanks. Carry on!
I 100% agree. In my 08 Dyna big twin I've found multiple issues thanks to your videos stemming from the tensioner including one I hope you do a video on soon. The overtightened chain created a primary leak that damaged the primary seal, bearing, and walked in / grooved race I replaced yesterday. Thanks to your video I now see I likely now pull the 6 speed to do bearings on too since my leak continues. What you missed about the correlated compensator issue though is that often the sprockets, while showing wear, might mask what in my case was the underlying hard start issue, the alternator rotor with integrated spring pack. The spring lost torsional force falling to push out sprockets and the internal magnets on opposing side were loose enough I was miles from them falling into and destroying stator. I even needed a starter ring gear on the clutch basket from the chain pulling so hard on basket and bearings it chipped teeth, sheered a few. Your videos really saved this guy used to Ironheads big $$$ on repair guidance! The technical approach helped me understand the failures enough to make insights and know what I needed to do in last couple weeks and now I know where to be looking to next in addressing my primary leak. Thanks. :)
That's awesome! Good to hear you caught that stuff and are getting it taken care of! There's just so many obscure things with Harleys depending on which year you have.
@@GixxerFoo In your opinion is there anything else I should look at to determine the primary oil seal leak? The trans doesn't leak so I'm mixed on pulling it to check bearings. Thinking race alignment maybe, but I used the removal collar tool to gap so the seal lip should be seated correctly when I seat the primary in relation to bearing / seal. It's been frustrating ha ha...
Thanks for the informative video. Sadly, I recently had to learn about this issue the hard way. The Automatic HD chain tensioner, which obviously had been running too tight for some time on my 2010 Ultra caused a lot of damage and many components had to be replaced at a significant cost to me. Not that there is ever a good time for this sort of unexpected expense, but this really came at the worst time possible. Of course the Harley dealerships will play all kinds of games and rack up a big invoice for you, but HD itself will never take responsibility for this sort of engineering mistake, so the owners are left dealing with the issue out of pocket. All this happened with only 37k miles on the bike. On the other hand, my 1999 FLHTCI has 137k (exactly 100k more miles than my 2010) and never had any such issues! After much research, I arrived at the same conclusion as you, and your video further solidified the fact that the auto chain tensioners are the issue. I only wish someone had told me a few years ago so the cost of repair would have been a few hundred dollars, rather than several thousand dollars! Thanks and please keep up the good work.
It's always good to know your not alone! They were pressed on the 88's and didn't have any issues, a lot of manufactures used pressed cranks with no issues. Lol they don't use automatic tensioners that locks the chain in place either. Then again they are mostly gear driven too.
I have been working on Harleys since 1979. Great subject ! I believe you are actually on to something! Great show, I hope you keep growing viewers. You describe issues in a nutshell. I know it seems that the average Joe that understands the workings of a small block Chevy would be able to grasp the working of a Harley even though they are not the same. You are either a gearhead or you're not. I have seen guys cause problems on shovelhead's that was not the bike's fault. Although they did have some so called engineer's that must have lied about previous employment! Lol I would love the guy and get to question him about the single bolt on the exhaust! Really ! Haha thanks for a great show, keep up the great work ! AMF
Damn interesting hypothesis. During last rebuild (103 to 110 CVO) upgrade,I had crank split, with new pin, rods and bearings and then welded by revolution. Installed new SE compensator as well as new tensioner. The original compensator was shot but the tensioner was still decent. Motor had 56k miles. I noticed now that the engine (floorboards) are very smooth at about 60 and is like glass at 90. I attribute that smoothness to the crank work. Anyhow, these 45 degree motors got lots of engineering compromises. I’ve not had transmission bearing issues (yet).
I bought my first Harley Davidson in September 2020 and it had 3400 miles on it when I got it. Ever since, it's been extremely difficult to go from 1st gear to neutral, so I find it easier to go from second gear to neutral. The bike has now done about 11,500 miles from new and I'm feeling guilty that I didn't research this topic sooner because I feel that if the tensioner has ratcheted tight, in the early days, then it's 11 thousand miles overdue for a manual adjuster. My mechanic said he'd do the changeover on the next service, which is in about 5000 miles time, but I'm thinking of getting it done sooner.
@@milomanx6531 I ride for fun, defensively, and to maximize the value of the time and money I have in all three of my Harleys. The most "aggressive" riding I do is on my stock 94 80" Evo FXR. I count on the reliability of all three bikes to get me there and back especially with the long distance touring I do with the Road Glide. I believe if I treat my equipment well, it will do the same in return.
As always, very well narrated and in an understanding way. The chain tightening up as much as you explained would certainly put extreme force on the crank and clutch basket, I'll defiantly keep an eye on that. Love the picture of the three stooges behind you. Safe riding from England.
Gixxerfoo Good day. Buddy, I have a question. What is your take on the new automatic Harley? Davidson primary chain adjusters, I had a 2014 low rider and sure enough that chain was tighter than shit. So I put a Hayden in there and it cured the problem I purchased a 2024 low rider ass. And thinking it would have the same problem. I purchased another Hayden primary chain adjuster for the M8 to my surprise when I pulled the primary cover off. The chain was adjusted perfectly had plenty of Spring action and it just looked great. I'm thinking I should leave it. It must have changed something it looks different I didn't take it out and examine it, but it does look different. I'd like to know what is your take on this.Your opinion is hell very strongly.In my book, thank you, buddy.Hope to hear from you soon.Have a good night
Hi, thanks for the video. I agree with you in that the automatic tensioner needs to go! You're Right, nobody EVER talks about the fine-splined sprocket shaft although it experiences much more abuse than the pinion shaft of the flywheels. I sure wish H-D would use an interference press-fit plug in the crankpin to solidify the flywheel assembly like Darkhorse does, that would eliminate a lot of problems with that whole assembly! Thanks again for your excellent video!
Harley flywheels have been scissoring since before they started pressing them together, but the very first time a pressed together set did it everyone started acting like it was something unique to them. In the 33 years I've been rebuilding and modifying Harley engine's I can honestly say I've seen it happen to more pre pressed flywheels than pressed one's, all this turmoil over it is proof of how people just latch onto something and make an issue of it.
2013 RKC 55000 mi Stage 1, All stock after that. My chain is about 5/8ths free play . checked thru hole with long screw driver ! Folks just ride!!! Have Fun! Old M/C Mechcanic age 69 Long Live 57 Pan ...
My compensator on my 15 CVO Street glide shit the bed at 20k miles. I switched over to the Baker compensator and attitude adjuster manual primary chain tensioner. It’s a lot louder than the stock auto tensioner. That had me nervous for a good little bit. But 5k miles later, everything was sound and in good working order. I also notice my clutch is a little rattly / noisy when fully open. I wonder if all that excessive pressure from the auto tensioner is the culprit. I’m going to replace it with a rekluse and see if I tell a difference.
It's highly possible the auto tensioner could of cause of issues, they literally bind everything together when they ratchet up tight. I still firmly believe that was a cause of a lot of the failures on the 6 speed transmission when they first came out.
I fitted a Hayden M6 to my 2003 Fatboy at around 30,000 miles-one of the best mods out there.On some of the later models there's no inspection plate on the primary cover to check the chain tension-HD seemingly,were so confident with their automatic chain tensioner they didn't bother fitting one-sounds a bit like Titanic and life boats!
Started seeing the issues with the cranks in the 07 and up and the auto tensioner is a no brainer as far as getting it gone. Already had the compensator replaced on my 07 softail a few years ago and put in the SE tensioner a few months back. So far so good.
@@GixxerFoo I didn’t change the chain tensioner till it had 30K. It has 33250 on it now so I’m sure there is already some damage done but it still runs ok. Just did a 1069 mile road trip in 3 days and it ran just fine!
In 45 years of riding I've owned Pans, Shovels,Evolutions etc. But last year I bought My first 883 Sportster for an incredible price in MINT condition. It's a 2005 883xl that had 3k on it and in turn, I now own My first twin cam. Well I apparently got lucky because this year has the bugs of the earlier and the changes of the latter are engineered out. And to be honest, I'm gonna leave this thing stock, it's a joy to ride. Of course I put the 30 tooth sprocket in and went 10 over on the front and will be replacing tensioners etc (TLC) , but I'm stopping there. This has become My favorite ride !
Congrats on your 25K sub milestone. Love your straightforward vids. I never thought of the tensioner creating an issue with the crank but makes sense. I briefly put in a hayden but read a lot of problems with it evidently being cheaply made. The springs and over all design of the hayden did not impress me. The concept was good, just not the execution, to me.
Thanks 👍, the I've seen good and bad results with the Hayden. They seem to work pretty well on the big twins, Sportsters is where they seem to have issues.
due to videos like this ive pulled my primary cover off twice in 28k on my 103. even though i would describ myself as an aggressive rider down shifting to pass ect... every time ive inspected itvits been perfect, right between 5/8 & 3/4 so now you have heard a good story about the adjustor. i was thinking dark horse comp and adjustor but... not yet anyway.
Yo brother Foo , I know I thanked u before about ur information videos, but man I'm a member of a couple different forums but I've learned more about the 07 and later twin cam engines from u than I have from being in those forums for several years now. So please , whenever possible, I d love to see more on the first year of the 96s starting in 2007. Have an awesome day, bro.
The first years of the 96's were pretty much the same as the 103, but after 2009 that's when they made the Screamin Eagle compensator the stock part after the failures. But they are same cams as the 103 up until the 103HO, just a little less bore but the same crank.
I’m gonna do the baker at 5k miles. Thanks for the info. I’ve got a big loupe cam going in this week. I can see this even further aggravating the issue. I’m going back and watching everything you put out btw. Your like my Harley mechanic friend I don’t actually have. Many thanks.
I have a 2016 softail heritage 103HO and I’m curious why they don’t have the small inspection plate for the primary chain tensioner even with the auto tensioner? I just thought it would be easier and cheaper to have it. Thanks for your input.
Congrats on the channel success ! I have never thought about the auto tensioner causing crank problems but I think your on to something most of the crank problems I run into is guys doing wheelies & holeshots that puts an extreme torque load on the crank ! I have tried pressed together cranks on my old Rowe truing stand & then I weld both sides ! That's what we used to do on the drag bike except we only did the sprocket shaft side pinion side is keyed ! I have a snap on 3/4 drive torque wrench & I put 350 to 400 lbs on all the shovels & Evos !
Thank you! That is some brutal torque spec right there! I mean you put that kind of force on one side of the crank with looser tolerances throughout a motor something has to give!
I run the Baker compensator and manual adjuster which is supposed to be checked every 5,000 which is also the oil change interval so just doing that in addition to a three-hole oil change is a piece of cake. That's on an '08 Road King but my 14 Ultra limited also has enough slop that when I get on it at low RPMs I can hear the compensator springs slipping or the chain smacking the case.... So it's about to get a baker as well.
It keeps growing because you are giving us good information in a way that is entertaining and fun to watch, keep up the good work. Can't wait for the next one!
Great channel, l enjoy all your info. Keep up the good work. I put an automatic chain tensioner into my ‘06 Night Train thinking l was improving my bike. Now l am going to take it out. The more l learn about the newer Harleys the more l like my older 88” twin cams. To be honest, the only thing l wish my bikes had was the built in clock that is in the odometer that the ‘07 and newer bikes have. Lol
😄 the clock really is pretty handy lol. There's a lot to be said about the older bikes, I firmly believe they are worth putting some money in over buying a new bike.
Love your content. You make these issues easy to understand for the lay person. Love the twin cam content, I may never be able to afford an M8, so my 88 tc in my Road King Classic is my future. Thanks again!
I have thought about it, since my primary imploded. broken comp. spring. about 180,000 kms. I have 187,000 0n it now. 2009 fxdf. I had to go back and replace the starter clutch drive 3days after i fixed the primary. then the fuel pump let go. but i still love the bike .do a lot of hiway riding. In B.C. canada its got the 96 inch motor . Use to like riding down to reno, montana, anacortes oyster run. till covid hit.
I pulled my primary cover at the start of the riding season. Sure enough, my chain was as tight as the Vatican's Banking Books! I pull the auto tensioner out, reset it to the proper chain tension and will check it again at the seasons end.... But, I expect I''ll be changing it out for an after market manual unit.....
I'm wondering how long does it take for a resetted OEM tensior to 'ratchet up' tight again? I guess that would depend on load, and how aggressive the acceleration / deceleration is (ie, hard riding vs sedate cruising).
I agree with your theory. Definitely gave me a heads up to pull the covers and check runout. Increasing runout tolerances on a crankshaft is mighty suspicious. I've worked with high speed turbine compressors and have first hand witnessed the results of vibration caused by runout. It aint pretty! As for a root cause analysis on "scissoring", I think you are on the right track with the tensioner issue. Your videos and commentary rock! Good job!!!
Thank you! I worked as a mechanic in a power plant and turbine shaft run out was imperative, as well as alignment along the shaft. Lol I've some turbine blade carnage so I know exactly what you mean!
Easier way to check chain tension on automatic adjusters is to remove derby cover and stick a slim screwdriver in there sideways to move the chain up an down. I usually get 3/8 to 1/2 movement which is spec. Never had a problem with auto adjuster on my 2011 softail or my 2014 rk. I check them every 5 k when I change fluids and adjust clutch.
That's exactly what I would highly recommend if you elect to run a manual tensioner. A lot of the problem starts when the bikes get some miles and the chain starts to stretch a bit with normal wear.
I have one of those 07 automatic chain tensioners, with around 23k on my twinky, and only checked it once through the derby cover last year. The chain still had some play on it then, but I have considered getting a manual tensioner. Probably next year. Thanks for the reminder about this possible problem.
I switched to the Hayden and haven’t had any issues. Put 10,000 on it. Messed with the spring amount in it, the shims, just playing around with it and it’s worn evenly and stayed consistent. I did all this after switching from the stock compensator, that was beat to hell, to a BDL compensator.
Absolutely is a problem buddy just had this exact problem. Moter rebuild time sucks. Manual adjustment the way you want to go 4 sure. Thank you great video.
Over tensioning by the auto tensioner can also be caused by chain slap. Remember that HD recommends shifting to 6th at 85km/h or 55mph. This lugs the engine into a chain slap condition.
I miss the old 5pc cranks. I've assembled and trued dozens for Flat/Knuckle/Pan/Shovel/Block head motors with no failures. Late Shovels and Evos had 3pc cranks. Of course if ya want to make more power , go with T&O , S&S or Jims steel wheels. The steel wheels take a lot more torque on the shaft and crank pins nuts than cast iron wheels. And the tapers must be CLEAN and DRY.
Great piece. Question: Are there any companies that build/sell primary casings with a manual adjustment window? If not, seems like a great opportunity for someone to fill that niche.
That's a great idea, I'm not aware of any out there actually. They did away with the window after the 88 and went with a solid primary. That's a excellent idea though, I'll have to do some looking around.
I believe in manual tensioners...and the scissoring of the crank I think is from heavy on - off throttle that causes alot of for and aft torsion load on the pin. Love the vids keep em coming
As always more great information. As far as the auto tension on the primary goes sounds great but too tight is no good and it can get that way too easily. I agree, go manual. Not a problem on my EVO.
Congrats on the 25k subscribers! I love your channel. Simple solution, go back to the Evolution. Can you imagine where we would be if Harley invested in the Evo like they did on the Twin Cam? Evos with FI and CC would be awesome, especially if they exceed 100 cu in.
Thank you! I really think Harley made that Evo too reliable lol, it wasn't generating enough parts and service revenue. Now if they would of engineered the Twin Cam more like the Evo that would of been great, the Twin Cam could of really been the second coming of the Evo.
The 110's had the same auto adjuster, it was basically the same engine as the 96 and 103. They just had a hotter cam, larger bore with pistons to match and some what better heads.
Wow. I am in the middle of discovering this personally. I am currently in the assembly phase of trying to recover exactly what this Man is saying. He is legit. I am switching from an "automatic Primary Chain Tensioner to a Maunual One. I dont subscribe to any channel here at UA-cam "University"!!!!! LOL I bought a manual chain tensioner from Drag Specialties. I am putting together a photo documentary to illustrate exactly what is in this video. He is exactly right and is a page I HIGHLY recommend that all Harley Owners subscribe to. HE NAILS IT. I appreciate you looking out for us Brother. Keep it Coming
I always enjoy the videos that you produce.I trust what you are telling us!my only regret is that you are too far away from eastern n.c. for me to carry my bike to you when it needs to be worked on. Keep up the good work,and thank you!
I can agree the automatic tensioner system is too tight, think about the clunk when you put it in first gear. However the manual tensioner if serviced is a better option, but the manual tensioner also has a tendency to break apart or drop the shoe the chain rides on. I'm going to say depending on what type of setup you run meaning cams, motor work essentially maybe the determining Factor. But obviously regular maintenance is absolute.
For sure there's no work around on the maintenance, with the manual you gotta keep up on that with the primary service interval. It's a pain to pull the primary but a small amount of work compared to having a major failure.
Can you provide any insight into the newest version? The 39929-06C. I notice the ramp that was metal on the A and B version is now polymer like the shoe on version C. ls this strictly a cost cutting measure per usual from Harley or do you think the teeth being plastic will shear if the belt becomes overly tight by the ratcheting? Thank you
I'm pretty sure the issue is down to the dynamics of the engine. The crankshaft wobble you're referring to are called crank torsionals which are resultant of the engine, crank, and cam design. The tensioner it's designed to balance chain control and chain tension. The chain does not put stress on the crank, rather it has to deal with the dynamics of the crank.
Great video. I have a 2006 Road king custom. At 48,000 miles I changed the cams and plate to SE and 204 cams( stock 88, true duals, super sucker air filter), I also put in an auto primary chain adjuster. After about 100 miles the screaming coming from the primary showed an overnight chain, I scrapped the auto adjuster and put a new shoe on the manual one. With 75,000 miles on it now, no noise, and little wear on the hydraulic cam shoes. Changing the cam plate and staying away from the auto primary is definitely the way to go
My primary was making a whirring noise so i pulled it off. It seemed that the chain was pretty tight although I could get the 5/8 slack, it was by putting enough force on the chain to compress the springs in the auto tensioner. I took the tensioner out and backed the wedge all the way to the loose end of the tension and put it back together. It seemed to work pretty well at first but after about 300 miles the noise seems to be coming back. Now that I see how easy it it to adjust the chain by removing the tensioner and resetting it, I think replacing with a manual adjuster is the way to go.
Getting a manual tensioner or a automatic like the Hayden is the best way to go. That factory manual tensioner will continue to ratchet up tighter in the loose spots in the chain. It takes up all the slack and doesn't give in the tight spots in the chain.
I have heard of some people that have done it without any issues, but I personally just run the synthetic 20w50 myself in the primary. Switching from a dedicated primary fluid I didn't notice much difference other than just buying one product instead of 3.
For those who want to spend the best $100 dollars of your life consider adding a Southern Oregon Hot Bike "HB-125" Hydraulic Primary chain tensioner. Set it and forget it
@@gsfinatic yep, ive put 100k miles on mine and its definitely worth the investment. If you own an Evo or anything compatible with the fitment of this tensioner its worth its weight in gold. Whoever invented this was a genius.
I have lost track of how many times I've watched & forwarded this video. So I rode my friends 2016 Limited last night, he's done the Man O War Compensator up grade & went to the Hayden Tensioner. after it got warmed up I noticed a noise started like a heat shield & then I heard it mostly from the transmission on right side. when I got back to shop after fully warmed up & after high way speeds I noticed it noisy in 6 the gear , when I went to park it it was very noticeable. this morning I went to pull it back into shop & upon rolling & letting out the clutch it makes a CLUNK (Like your typical twin cam drop into 1st gear cluck) But every time with just the clutch . Talking with him he states he's been messing with the springs on the adjuster. I AM NOT SOLD ON THE HAYDEN. The Cone /Shovel Head & Evo never had any problems Furthermore ; I think the EVO style (Screaming Eagle) is the answer to this Clunking Slapping noise at this moment of time.
It only takes 10 min to adjust the chain and they say to about a half in. Of play is right so definitely use a manual tensioner Tight belt happy belt loose chain happy motor and dont worry about that little sound when you engage the clutch not hurting anything.
All of this happened to my 07 Ultra Classic. It sucked bad, I loved the bike, hated all the money that thing costed me. It made me buy an Indian. I still have a Harley with a Timken conversion, and welded crank. It's still alive.
I couldn't agree with you more these automatic primary chain tensioner are a slow death..... evolution industries make a part called bump stop part #1070-1205 it stops the auto adjuster from over lighting I have 21 FLHXS AND the HD self adjustor doesn't fit ,the Hayden one is problems ,thank you again for all your info,
Which manual chain adjuster for the primary chain do u prefer . I’m replacing the compensator with a man of war and the clutch from rekluse torque drive . Thanks
I like the straight manual adjusters myself, you can set it and you know where it's at with the chain slack. Yeah it's a pain to pull the primary and check it every 10K miles, but it's well worth it to save some potential headaches.
Having seen what automatic chain tensioners do to the Clutch basket, bearings, seals etc- I've gone back to a manual adjustor because in my opinion, slack on a Chian drive is vital...and I'd rather be riding than wrenching every weekend
Thanks again for another great video and detective work! Always wondered about those automatic tensioners and heard that they over tightened. I just stay with my manual tightener and will have to get a hydraulic for my’12 SG. Thank you other commenters for advice, I’m gonna check them out.
Does that screaming Eagle tensioner noisy? I hear they are until you put some miles on it. That one by Southern Oregon has good reviews but like you I want the piece of mind.
Owning, riding and loving my '07 Road King is a wonderful experience. Only problem is, all the ghosts and goblins lurking below. Compensators going bad, primary chains over tightening crankshafts scissoring, oh my !😳 I go down the road and wonder when any, or all, of these monsters will attack my beloved hog. Inspection gives peace of mind but wouldn't it be nice if the motor company dealt with these issues from the get go ? Oh well it's a gorgeous Saturday morning and I'm going for a ride ! PS, manual adjusters get my vote. As well as an upgraded compensator and this winter will be the time to do it.
I am amazed at all of the bad press on auto tensioners… I talked with several techs at different HD dealers and every one of them said that they have never seen a failure from the tensioners. Also the forums say the same except for the few that claim that these auto tensioners are causing engine failures with no evidence or proof of such. All new Harleys have them and no inspection covers. I am no pro or expert, but I have to go with the techs and say that the auto tensioners are ok. I’m installing one in my 06 Ultra Classic … with a Drag Specialties compensator and Screaming Eagle clutch kit.
The three piece, built-up HD crankshaft assembly is basically 1895 de Dion-Bouton technology from the French engine that Harley-Davidson borrowed when building their first real engine in 1903-'04. Def needs updating.
Well, I finally changed that primary tensioner on my 103 switchback. Got a SE manual adjusting one. After that, an issue of noise in the compensator showed and changed that too, went with a Dark Horse one. Only thing to bear in mind here is that 1/2" slack recommended by them. Otherwise, you'll end up with a noisy primary. Do you think I did a proper upgrade??
And, maybe it has to do with the fact that I've started drag racing my 88tc this year but my manual tensioner actually came very loose from the inner primary. Glad I noticed it right away. Other than that no issues what so ever.
😄😂 well when racing all bets are out the window there, that's a whole new environment. 👍 dang good thing you caught it though, that would of been very bad.
@@GixxerFoo especially with the American Prime Manufacturing clutch and Evolution Industries billet basket. Harley could've made a better choice in fasteners imo, but I'll make it work...locktite #263 🤣
At 90k I decided to change the springs on se compensator and replace the automatic tensioner with a manual adjuster after I got it back together that thing was making all kinds of noise so got it apart to investigate, probably end up putting the automatic back in
Would you go with a manual primary chain tensioner or a spring loaded automatic tensioner like the Hayden?
Manual one! and checks every now and then😎 Good video again👍
After this video I would lean toward the manual tensioner.
The best one out there in my opinion is from Southern Oregon Hot Bike and its Hydraulic. Never had any issues with it and it makes shifting and finding neutral a breeze. I throw one on every HD I have owned and recommend them to all of my friends. Can't beat it for $100
I found the one that is identical to the South Oregon Hot Bike on Dennis Kirk catalog for 80 bucks, part number 18-0120
Manual always and forever
I worked at H-D at the time in the Engineering Dept (not an engineer). I don't remember the automatic chain tensioner being considered a problem related to the flywheel scissoring problem. The scissoring problem was a big deal at Harley and pressed together flywheel strength was studied extensively to determine cause(s). Several changes were implemented to reduce or eliminate the problem although there is only so much you can do with a pressed together flywheel vs a one piece forged crankshaft. Problems we found (to the best of my memory).
1. Production line parts cleaning fluid was not being changed often enough (to save money) causing parts with slight oil film to be pressed together. Study showed oily parts in press fit caused significant measurable decrease in flywheel strength. Solution- change parts washing fluid more often.
2. The flywheel truing process causes the press fit to be manipulated causing a decrease in flywheel press fit strength (the more the flywheel is trued by hydraulic press or old fashioned hammer blows, the weaker it gets). Solution was to possibly assemble the flywheel more accurately so that the flywheel would be true without any manipulation of the pressed parts. This is one of the reasons the flywheel runout tolerance was increased from the original 0.0015" as they found flywheels could not be pressed together without separate truing and meet the .0015" tolerance.
3. Larger displacement engine (110cu in vs previous 103,95,88) combined with bikes generally getting heavier over time and possibly some occasional engine lugging by folks not downshifting into correct gear when putting around a parking lot at low speed. There was a mechanic I worked with who was involved in studying the problem and he could scissor a flywheel on command by riding a bike ( I think he would lug the bike around slowly in too high of a gear and input lots of throttle). We've probably all done it and felt the herky-jerky motion created by not downshifting properly. Solution was to change the throttle calibration to not allow as much power input if the bike was in too high a gear for the current wheel speed. Lot's of police bikes were built with 103's (stock tuning) and to my knowledge the scissor problem didn't appear until the 110 motor was released in 2007 to the general public.
4. The straight roller left main bearing may contribute to scissoring problem by not holding the flywheel as rigidly as the previous tapered timken.
I could see possibly where the automatic primary tensioner could contribute to the flywheel scissoring once the flywheel has begun to scissor as the flywheel output shaft running out of true would cause the primary chain to tighten/loosen/tighten possibly causing the tensioner to ratchet tighter and tighter over time. Not here to defend the automatic primary chain tensioner. It may be part of the problem but I don't think it is the only factor. There's my two cents.
That's a very heavy 2 cents and some awesome input! Likely why every Harley owners manual stresses to not lug that engine, that's a lot of force on the flywheels with the engine design!
@@GixxerFoo Indeed - that was more like two thousand pennies 👍👍
That wasn't merely two cents' worth; that was two thousand cents. Fascinating and very well-written insights and account. Thank you, kindly! 👍
From southern California ~ Ride Forever! 🦅
It makes perfect sense that the automatic chain tensioner wouldn't be the only problem, but exacerbates a plethora of manufacturing related, and rider related issues. I could 100% see the case, though, that once it begins to scissor at all, the chain tensioner continuing to ratchet tighter and tighter would significantly accelerate the process. GREAT information from both Gixxer and Mike.
Hey GF, your channel has grown because you provide quality content that is pertinent to HD riders. Until today I have never heard of crankshaft scissoring or problems with the automatic chain tensioner. That's why I come here.
Thank you I really appreciate it! It's just a lot of obscure things I've learned over the years, I see too many people buy a used Harley only to have a major issue.
Pressed crankshafts are and always will be prone to twisting out of line if used wrongly. SPG made excellent racing crankshafts using a pressed construction for vw flat four engines. Bullet proof until you held high revs and dump the clutch. Instant wrecked engine cases. Use it conservatively and you will not have a better balanced crank.
As for chain tensioners.
Automatic tension devices are for cam chains and where maintenance wants to be reduced. Far better to remove the need and use a gear train instead. As for belts. They are for holding up trousers.
Harley increased the allowable run-out so they could weasel their way out of warranty claims. That's one of the things that definitely left an impression on me about the Integrity of Harley-Davidson as a company.
The high tolerances are for sure not right, that makes a lot of sense!
Talk about the HARD-ON the EPA/DOT has had for HD Since at least 1995 at mininum.. This is a Huge Part of the Multitude of Problems with HD these Days. And another part is the New Age Bean Counters.
ABSOLUTELY the the Chain Tensióners are part of this Abortion. Along with Super High Pressure Valve Springs. Hey Fellas!! Stay below. 550 Lift and 5800 RPM and your Twin Cam will live longer PERIOD!! And for the 'B' Motors find a Electionic Balancer.. Do the Crank a Throw the Balancers Under the Work Bench Plug the Oíl Hole and Forget about it . And Install a Manual Chain Tensióner.. Or Better Yet get yourself a S&S V111 EVO. Have Fun ✌️
@@donalbershardt9290 The Yamaha Road Star NEVER had a "multitude of problems" in sixteen years of manufacture starting in 1999 - EPA/DOT or no EPA/DOT. Air cooled single pin solid crank with side-by-side automotive style rods set at 48 degrees. Gear driven, pushrod activated cams. Gear driven primary. Four valve heads. Belt final drive. So that's the end of that biased and highly erroneous assessment. Rather, Harley's multitude of problems where cause by, well, the Harley-Davidson Motor Company in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. 😏
Who remembers the shelf struggling to stay afloat? Good times.
😄😂 those were the days, I almost hated to change it since it was such a conversation piece.
🤣🤣🤣
Ayuh wonder when that was going crash
👍
omg 🤣
I put a Screamin Eagle manual tensioner in my softy bout a year and a half ago and wish I had done it sooner, yeah, a little more work to adjust it but I don’t have to worry about my chain feeling like a guitar string especially when laying a roller lol. Shifts better too and the bonus is by taking the outer primary cover off once a year, I can really see the condition of everything and thoroughly clean/inspect everything.
Getting some eyes in that primary is never a bad thing! Great to hear that manual tensioner is working out for you!
Your logic makes perfect sense to me. In light of this information, I think I'd rather have a manual tensioner. I'd be ok with checking the manual tensioner once in a while if it kept that stress off of everything else. Great info, as always.
Thank you! It's for sure nice knowing where your tensioner setting is at and not just leaving it to chance with the automatic.
@@GixxerFoo Thought about getting the automatic and read about some problems with them on HD's website. Decided that it is easier to do it manually. There is no visible wear on mine at 54k miles so...don't fix it if it ain't broke.
I took the automatic tensioner out of my dyna at 25 k miles and replaced it with a Hayden M6 .The bike now has 104 K miles and going strong . I like the hayden unit as it is so forgiving .
Great video sir!
You're very literate and easy to follow. (Many people posting videos don't know what they're doing)
I bought an '09 FLHX new.
Of course, they're all great when new, but eventually I suspected something was not right. I read blogs from different sites about the auto tensioner and decided to take a look.
I discovered that my primary chain was as tight as a piano string! Along with that, many bloggers also found their clutch hub splines broken on the inboard side of the hub. I found this problem on mine also. The majority of the splines were broken and pieces lying in the bottom of my primary. Some of the pieces were up to 3/8 inches.
So, I bought a new clutch hub, clutch hub bearing. I also replaced the inner primary bearing. (noises)
Bloggers complained too, that the compensator was not strong enough for the 96, so I replaced the original with a recommended S.E. compensator.
Yes, the auto-tensioner is garbage! Even though the cost of a different tensioner would not "break the bank", I altered my original tensioner to make it a manual adjuster. (I liked the components of the original) It cost me about $1.00 for a long stainless screw and nylock nut. Again, I can afford new parts, but at this point I'm pretty disheartened with the whole scenario, so in defiance, used my head instead of my wallet.
Currently, I have roughly 55k on my bike, and I like my bike. I shouldn't have to buy another to alleviate issues. But, every year now, it seems more issues keep popping up. I believe I have a collapsed lifter, but haven't addressed that yet.
I believe the faulty auto-tensioner has caused much of the mentioned issues, and there may be more to be found.
This is not right. You'd think that after all these years, Harley would be able to build a better product, or at least stand behind what they do build by fixing their mistakes?
In a perfect world, maybe.........
Thank you, I appreciate it! Harley just really went for more production and reduced costs while still keeping the premium price tag. The auto tensioner is for sure a huge contributor to a lot of the issues, good thing you found that broken clutch!
When I did my last build, I went with Hoban Brothers Darkhorse Man O War crankshaft (they ensure it's balanced then weld the pin and provide a certificate with your total runout numbers), their Man O War compensator sprocket (in my opinion a better/simpler design than Baker's with the added benefit of being serviceable/rebuildable), and Southern Oregon Hotbikes HB125-07 primary chain tensioner. Topped her off with a Rekluse clutch and now she is smooth as silk.
I really like Dark Horse products, I feel their compensator eliminator with the cush drive was just absolute genius. It's really all you need in there and it works, like you mentioned rebuildable too!
Are you still running the same set-up? I'm really curious about the tensioner. Does it not over-tighten the chain like the factory one does?
I'm a new subscriber since purchasing my first HD. It's a used, 2011 Heritage Softail w/ a stock 103 engine. I've wrenched plenty of bikes over nearly five decades but never really messed around with Harleys. What I like about your vids is that you offer food for thought. This vid is the perfect example. What came first, the looser tolerances or the automatic chain tensioner? As an old British bike fanatic (mainly Bonnies and Tridents) I'd put my money on the auto-tensioners for messing things up more than the looser tolerances. Mind you the old Triumphs never had auto-tensioners but sure had plenty of people that over-tightened the dog poo out of the primary chains...leading to various ugly disasters.
Anyhow, keep up the good work GixxerFoo. For a young guy you sure have your finger on the finer technical issues, good and bad, of this Milwaukee iron, and that's commendable. The devil's always in the details isn't it?
Thank you for the subscription, I really appreciate it! The devil really is in the details, the auto tensioner cam after the looser tolerances. The loose tolerances started on the 88 but it had a manual tensioner. We didn't see these issues on the 88's, the problem started in 2007 with the 6 speed transmission. It was blamed on the trans which had some seal issues and then the compensator failures the same year. The only thing that was changed was the auto tensioner over the manual. On a Harley it's best to err on the side of caution and run it a bit looser, tighter on a Harley isn't always better in the drive train.
Everytime I watch one of your videos it always gives me a warm & fuzzy about keeping my 02 RKC with its manual primary chain adjuster among other things you've talked about. When I change the primary fluid about every 5K, I give the primary chain a wiggle. If it's maybe a 1/2" at most, I call it good. I've adjusted it twice in 78.5K miles. Bike continues to hum along like it's still new. Congrats on 25K subscribers. Awesome! My favorite Harley channel. I miss the sagging shelf too.
That is awesome! I appreciate the support! It really doesn't need to be adjusted much, they don't stretch a whole lot just casually riding. I would for sure hang onto your 2002!
Plus you have a hot forged crank as well as the Timken bearing(s) on the sprocket shaft - both of which features were eliminated in '03. I reckon you've addressed the cam chain tensioners.
@@midnightmc3096 Yup. Changed those out at about 50K with the new setup.
Been using Haydens M6 primary chain tensioner since 1998 on my 86 FLT. No problems so far. This video gives me another reason to look at our 2014 FLHTCU with suspicion lol. Been subscribed since the shelf was sagging. Your content has always been good. Keep it up!
Thank you! You've been on the channel for quite a while! The Hayden is an awesome system, Harley should of used a design like that.
While in my primary installing a Baker comp. I also installed an attitude adjuster. Your video reinforces that decision. Keep 'em coming!
That's some solid upgrades right there, save you a lot of headaches down the road!
Replaced mine on the 2007 Fatboy after hearing things from folks so glad I did. Thank you for this video. Brothers need to know.
Thank you I appreciate it! It's really good idea to get it replaced before it causes issues.
Own a stock TC88 02 FatBoy w manual tensioner. I always check the tension when doing the primary fluid change, and have barely needed to adjust it over the years. Like you, I like the idea of knowing what the tension is set to. I had the opportunity to change to the automatic adjuster, but felt the constant tension was too much, all the time. I felt that if I ever really needed to in the future, I could easily do it. That was over ten years…and I found no reason to change. Great video as always 👍😎
I like to know where my tension is set and not leave it to chance!
Good stuff, I have an '05 15th anniversary Fatboy with the old style primary adjuster like you, I love it also.
Was adjusting the chain last night 5th gear plugs out very hard to turn the rear wheel feels like a hard spot in the crank, try to get the chain 5/8 to 7/8 cold, but it seems like one size is really small and the other side is huge? stretch chain maybe.? Ty
Planning to put in a Screaming Eagle compensator and manual chain tensioner this winter on my 2012 TC96. I think you are 100% right.
That's a excellent plan! After a OEM compensator fails I always recommend going with the SE, oddly it's cheaper and for sure better than OEM. With the manual tensioner kept adjusted you shouldn't have any issues going forward.
I had that done ... new rods and had crank tried and welded.. ended up getting a runout of 0.0008" at the cam plate checked... and got the timing bearing done to the case.. smooth as silk
You have earned that following my friend! I bet you probably have as many miles on your wrenches as you do on your bike. Your presentations are very comprehensive and well explained. Like most, I suspect... even though my '07 XL 1200 Custom is running great, there is usually something not quite right or I outright want better performance that I am certain lurks underneath. I tend to go for performance over speed and after studying the issues, and gotten "other's opinions" ...I ultimately come back to your tutorials and follow your advice and suggestions. I have been thrilled with the results!! For the record, one move was to swap out oem plugs and wires and getting Screaming Eagle plugs and the Phatt wires. The improvement achieved from that was real and significant; I did not dream it up. The other adjustment I made was to swap out the factory mufflers on my '03 883. You demystified (for me anyway) the various exhaust theories and options along with equipment recommendations. Ther was no doubt in my mind what would be the best setup for what I wanted. I put on some Stage 1 SE mufflers and was totally blown away!! The net consequence of that was performance that was more like a motor job than a muffler job! You have won my confidence and respect! I won't be going anywhere except back to your channel come time for my next project. Wishing you and your family a Happy Thanksgiving!
Glad to hear you are enjoying the videos, that’s what it’s all about! I am really happy to hear that, I started this channel on the basis of things I have seen over the years and experienced myself. Things I wish I knew before I bought my first Twin Cam 88 and blew the motor.
@GixxerFoo Oh man!! I'm sorry to hear about your Twin Cam 88, ugh! If it's any consolation, I sometimes believe I've been saved a couple of catastrophies ala your videos. Thanks. Carry on!
I 100% agree. In my 08 Dyna big twin I've found multiple issues thanks to your videos stemming from the tensioner including one I hope you do a video on soon. The overtightened chain created a primary leak that damaged the primary seal, bearing, and walked in / grooved race I replaced yesterday. Thanks to your video I now see I likely now pull the 6 speed to do bearings on too since my leak continues. What you missed about the correlated compensator issue though is that often the sprockets, while showing wear, might mask what in my case was the underlying hard start issue, the alternator rotor with integrated spring pack. The spring lost torsional force falling to push out sprockets and the internal magnets on opposing side were loose enough I was miles from them falling into and destroying stator. I even needed a starter ring gear on the clutch basket from the chain pulling so hard on basket and bearings it chipped teeth, sheered a few. Your videos really saved this guy used to Ironheads big $$$ on repair guidance! The technical approach helped me understand the failures enough to make insights and know what I needed to do in last couple weeks and now I know where to be looking to next in addressing my primary leak. Thanks. :)
That's awesome! Good to hear you caught that stuff and are getting it taken care of! There's just so many obscure things with Harleys depending on which year you have.
@@GixxerFoo In your opinion is there anything else I should look at to determine the primary oil seal leak? The trans doesn't leak so I'm mixed on pulling it to check bearings. Thinking race alignment maybe, but I used the removal collar tool to gap so the seal lip should be seated correctly when I seat the primary in relation to bearing / seal. It's been frustrating ha ha...
Thanks for the informative video. Sadly, I recently had to learn about this issue the hard way. The Automatic HD chain tensioner, which obviously had been running too tight for some time on my 2010 Ultra caused a lot of damage and many components had to be replaced at a significant cost to me. Not that there is ever a good time for this sort of unexpected expense, but this really came at the worst time possible. Of course the Harley dealerships will play all kinds of games and rack up a big invoice for you, but HD itself will never take responsibility for this sort of engineering mistake, so the owners are left dealing with the issue out of pocket. All this happened with only 37k miles on the bike. On the other hand, my 1999 FLHTCI has 137k (exactly 100k more miles than my 2010) and never had any such issues! After much research, I arrived at the same conclusion as you, and your video further solidified the fact that the auto chain tensioners are the issue. I only wish someone had told me a few years ago so the cost of repair would have been a few hundred dollars, rather than several thousand dollars! Thanks and please keep up the good work.
Thank you and sorry to hear about your bike. Yeah Harley doesn't admit fault, they just quietly fix things without any kind of announcement.
@@GixxerFoo I understand there are multiple options for a manual chain tensioner. Do you have any recommendation as to which works best?
I like your reasoning with the chain tensioner . You're not the only one out there that has this same theory.
It's always good to know your not alone! They were pressed on the 88's and didn't have any issues, a lot of manufactures used pressed cranks with no issues. Lol they don't use automatic tensioners that locks the chain in place either. Then again they are mostly gear driven too.
I have been working on Harleys since 1979. Great subject ! I believe you are actually on to something! Great show, I hope you keep growing viewers. You describe issues in a nutshell. I know it seems that the average Joe that understands the workings of a small block Chevy would be able to grasp the working of a Harley even though they are not the same. You are either a gearhead or you're not. I have seen guys cause problems on shovelhead's that was not the bike's fault. Although they did have some so called engineer's that must have lied about previous employment! Lol I would love the guy and get to question him about the single bolt on the exhaust! Really ! Haha thanks for a great show, keep up the great work ! AMF
Thank you, I appreciate it! Harley's are pretty simple, you just can't overthink things with those motors!
Damn interesting hypothesis. During last rebuild (103 to 110 CVO) upgrade,I had crank split, with new pin, rods and bearings and then welded by revolution. Installed new SE compensator as well as new tensioner. The original compensator was shot but the tensioner was still decent. Motor had 56k miles. I noticed now that the engine (floorboards) are very smooth at about 60 and is like glass at 90. I attribute that smoothness to the crank work. Anyhow, these 45 degree motors got lots of engineering compromises. I’ve not had transmission bearing issues (yet).
Getting a built crank in there makes a huge difference!
I’m a Harley mechanic for over 25 years now and I’ve seen nothing but problems caused by the automatic primary chain tensioners
I’m not surprised your channel is growing. Good info with no attitude.
Thank you, I appreciate it !
My 06 fxdli has had no tensioner issues, primary exposed twice in 26k of use. Overall its been a great running bike.
Can't complain about that, nothing wrong there!
I bought my first Harley Davidson in September 2020 and it had 3400 miles on it when I got it. Ever since, it's been extremely difficult to go from 1st gear to neutral, so I find it easier to go from second gear to neutral. The bike has now done about 11,500 miles from new and I'm feeling guilty that I didn't research this topic sooner because I feel that if the tensioner has ratcheted tight, in the early days, then it's 11 thousand miles overdue for a manual adjuster. My mechanic said he'd do the changeover on the next service, which is in about 5000 miles time, but I'm thinking of getting it done sooner.
That's always a issue with a Harley, finding neutral but you get some slack in that chain and it works a lot better!
Never had an issue with the automatic primary chain tensioner on my stock 96" FLTR with over 196K on the original drivetrain.
Good news, but, you must never ride aggressively?
@@milomanx6531 I ride for fun, defensively, and to maximize the value of the time and money I have in all three of my Harleys. The most "aggressive" riding I do is on my stock 94 80" Evo FXR. I count on the reliability of all three bikes to get me there and back especially with the long distance touring I do with the Road Glide. I believe if I treat my equipment well, it will do the same in return.
As always, very well narrated and in an understanding way. The chain tightening up as much as you explained would certainly put extreme force on the crank and clutch basket, I'll defiantly keep an eye on that. Love the picture of the three stooges behind you. Safe riding from England.
Thank you, I appreciate it! Getting a Hayden auto adjuster or going manual is a good plan!
Gixxerfoo Good day.
Buddy, I have a question. What is your take on the new automatic Harley? Davidson primary chain adjusters, I had a 2014 low rider and sure enough that chain was tighter than shit. So I put a Hayden in there and it cured the problem I purchased a 2024 low rider ass. And thinking it would have the same problem. I purchased another Hayden primary chain adjuster for the M8 to my surprise when I pulled the primary cover off. The chain was adjusted perfectly had plenty of Spring action and it just looked great. I'm thinking I should leave it. It must have changed something it looks different I didn't take it out and examine it, but it does look different. I'd like to know what is your take on this.Your opinion is hell very strongly.In my book, thank you, buddy.Hope to hear from you soon.Have a good night
Great video Dude. You have hit the nail on the head about the auto chain tensioner
Thank you, they can for sure cause some serious problems as the bike gets some miles on it.
Hi, thanks for the video. I agree with you in that the automatic tensioner needs to go! You're Right, nobody EVER talks about the fine-splined sprocket shaft although it experiences much more abuse than the pinion shaft of the flywheels. I sure wish H-D would use an interference press-fit plug in the crankpin to solidify the flywheel assembly like Darkhorse does, that would eliminate a lot of problems with that whole assembly! Thanks again for your excellent video!
Thank you, I appreciate it! Dark Horse really has it figured out, they make some damn good products.
Harley flywheels have been scissoring since before they started pressing them together, but the very first time a pressed together set did it everyone started acting like it was something unique to them.
In the 33 years I've been rebuilding and modifying Harley engine's I can honestly say I've seen it happen to more pre pressed flywheels than pressed one's, all this turmoil over it is proof of how people just latch onto something and make an issue of it.
They for sure could of used a solid crank pin, the aftermarket is always there to make it right though.
Yeah, people have this habit of "latching onto" things that grab their wallet and mood in a big way 🙄
2013 RKC 55000 mi Stage 1, All stock after that.
My chain is about 5/8ths free play . checked thru hole with long screw driver !
Folks just ride!!! Have Fun! Old M/C Mechcanic age 69
Long Live 57 Pan ...
My compensator on my 15 CVO Street glide shit the bed at 20k miles. I switched over to the Baker compensator and attitude adjuster manual primary chain tensioner. It’s a lot louder than the stock auto tensioner. That had me nervous for a good little bit. But 5k miles later, everything was sound and in good working order. I also notice my clutch is a little rattly / noisy when fully open. I wonder if all that excessive pressure from the auto tensioner is the culprit. I’m going to replace it with a rekluse and see if I tell a difference.
It's highly possible the auto tensioner could of cause of issues, they literally bind everything together when they ratchet up tight. I still firmly believe that was a cause of a lot of the failures on the 6 speed transmission when they first came out.
I fitted a Hayden M6 to my 2003 Fatboy at around 30,000 miles-one of the best mods out there.On some of the later models there's no inspection plate on the primary cover to check the chain tension-HD seemingly,were so confident with their automatic chain tensioner they didn't bother fitting one-sounds a bit like Titanic and life boats!
That's exactly why I prefer the manual tensioners, you can set it and you know where you're at!
Started seeing the issues with the cranks in the 07 and up and the auto tensioner is a no brainer as far as getting it gone. Already had the compensator replaced on my 07 softail a few years ago and put in the SE tensioner a few months back. So far so good.
You shouldn't have any issues now going forward with that done!
@@GixxerFoo I didn’t change the chain tensioner till it had 30K. It has 33250 on it now so I’m sure there is already some damage done but it still runs ok. Just did a 1069 mile road trip in 3 days and it ran just fine!
In 45 years of riding I've owned Pans, Shovels,Evolutions etc. But last year I bought My first 883 Sportster for an incredible price in MINT condition. It's a 2005 883xl that had 3k on it and in turn, I now own My first twin cam. Well I apparently got lucky because this year has the bugs of the earlier and the changes of the latter are engineered out. And to be honest, I'm gonna leave this thing stock, it's a joy to ride. Of course I put the 30 tooth sprocket in and went 10 over on the front and will be replacing tensioners etc (TLC) , but I'm stopping there. This has become My favorite ride !
Congrats on your 25K sub milestone. Love your straightforward vids. I never thought of the tensioner creating an issue with the crank but makes sense. I briefly put in a hayden but read a lot of problems with it evidently being cheaply made. The springs and over all design of the hayden did not impress me. The concept was good, just not the execution, to me.
Thanks 👍, the I've seen good and bad results with the Hayden. They seem to work pretty well on the big twins, Sportsters is where they seem to have issues.
due to videos like this ive pulled my primary cover off twice in 28k on my 103. even though i would describ myself as an aggressive rider down shifting to pass ect... every time ive inspected itvits been perfect, right between 5/8 & 3/4 so now you have heard a good story about the adjustor. i was thinking dark horse comp and adjustor but... not yet anyway.
It does vary across bikes, sounds like you've got a good one!
Yo brother Foo , I know I thanked u before about ur information videos, but man I'm a member of a couple different forums but I've learned more about the 07 and later twin cam engines from u than I have from being in those forums for several years now. So please , whenever possible, I d love to see more on the first year of the 96s starting in 2007. Have an awesome day, bro.
The first years of the 96's were pretty much the same as the 103, but after 2009 that's when they made the Screamin Eagle compensator the stock part after the failures. But they are same cams as the 103 up until the 103HO, just a little less bore but the same crank.
I’m gonna do the baker at 5k miles. Thanks for the info. I’ve got a big loupe cam going in this week. I can see this even further aggravating the issue. I’m going back and watching everything you put out btw. Your like my Harley mechanic friend I don’t actually have. Many thanks.
Thank you, I appreciate it! It's worth the investment with no more than the primary chain needs to be adjusted, especially with that big cam going in!
I have a 2016 softail heritage 103HO and I’m curious why they don’t have the small inspection plate for the primary chain tensioner even with the auto tensioner? I just thought it would be easier and cheaper to have it. Thanks for your input.
Congrats on the channel success ! I have never thought about the auto tensioner causing crank problems but I think your on to something most of the crank problems I run into is guys doing wheelies & holeshots that puts an extreme torque load on the crank ! I have tried pressed together cranks on my old Rowe truing stand & then I weld both sides ! That's what we used to do on the drag bike except we only did the sprocket shaft side pinion side is keyed ! I have a snap on 3/4 drive torque wrench & I put 350 to 400 lbs on all the shovels & Evos !
Thank you! That is some brutal torque spec right there! I mean you put that kind of force on one side of the crank with looser tolerances throughout a motor something has to give!
I run the Baker compensator and manual adjuster which is supposed to be checked every 5,000 which is also the oil change interval so just doing that in addition to a three-hole oil change is a piece of cake. That's on an '08 Road King but my 14 Ultra limited also has enough slop that when I get on it at low RPMs I can hear the compensator springs slipping or the chain smacking the case.... So it's about to get a baker as well.
Baker makes an awesome compensator! Going with Baker products can really solve a lot of issues like that.
It keeps growing because you are giving us good information in a way that is entertaining and fun to watch, keep up the good work. Can't wait for the next one!
I appreciate that!
Great channel, l enjoy all your info. Keep up the good work. I put an automatic chain tensioner into my ‘06 Night Train thinking l was improving my bike. Now l am going to take it out. The more l learn about the newer Harleys the more l like my older 88” twin cams. To be honest, the only thing l wish my bikes had was the built in clock that is in the odometer that the ‘07 and newer bikes have. Lol
😄 the clock really is pretty handy lol. There's a lot to be said about the older bikes, I firmly believe they are worth putting some money in over buying a new bike.
Love your content. You make these issues easy to understand for the lay person. Love the twin cam content, I may never be able to afford an M8, so my 88 tc in my Road King Classic is my future. Thanks again!
I am not sold on the M8's, they are still having some issues so I would say the Twin Cam would be a better choice.
I have thought about it, since my primary imploded. broken comp. spring. about 180,000 kms. I have 187,000 0n it now. 2009 fxdf. I had to go back and replace the starter clutch drive 3days after i fixed the primary. then the fuel pump let go. but i still love the bike .do a lot of hiway riding. In B.C. canada its got the 96 inch motor . Use to like riding down to reno, montana, anacortes oyster run. till covid hit.
I pulled my primary cover at the start of the riding season. Sure enough, my chain was as tight as the Vatican's Banking Books!
I pull the auto tensioner out, reset it to the proper chain tension and will check it again at the seasons end....
But, I expect I''ll be changing it out for an after market manual unit.....
I'm wondering how long does it take for a resetted OEM tensior to 'ratchet up' tight again? I guess that would depend on load, and how aggressive the acceleration / deceleration is (ie, hard riding vs sedate cruising).
As you ride it will start taking up the slack in the chain pretty quick, with the manual it will stay where you put it.
I agree with your theory. Definitely gave me a heads up to pull the covers and check runout. Increasing runout tolerances on a crankshaft is mighty suspicious. I've worked with high speed turbine compressors and have first hand witnessed the results of vibration caused by runout. It aint pretty! As for a root cause analysis on "scissoring", I think you are on the right track with the tensioner issue. Your videos and commentary rock! Good job!!!
Thank you! I worked as a mechanic in a power plant and turbine shaft run out was imperative, as well as alignment along the shaft. Lol I've some turbine blade carnage so I know exactly what you mean!
Easier way to check chain tension on automatic adjusters is to remove derby cover and stick a slim screwdriver in there sideways to move the chain up an down.
I usually get 3/8 to 1/2 movement which is spec.
Never had a problem with auto adjuster on my 2011 softail or my 2014 rk.
I check them every 5 k when I change fluids and adjust clutch.
That's exactly what I would highly recommend if you elect to run a manual tensioner. A lot of the problem starts when the bikes get some miles and the chain starts to stretch a bit with normal wear.
I have one of those 07 automatic chain tensioners, with around 23k on my twinky, and only checked it once through the derby cover last year. The chain still had some play on it then, but I have considered getting a manual tensioner. Probably next year.
Thanks for the reminder about this possible problem.
It's good you've got some play in there, most of them are solid tight and that's when you start having issues.
@@GixxerFoo Amen to that.
I switched to the Hayden and haven’t had any issues. Put 10,000 on it. Messed with the spring amount in it, the shims, just playing around with it and it’s worn evenly and stayed consistent. I did all this after switching from the stock compensator, that was beat to hell, to a BDL compensator.
Hayden is what the Harley tensioner should of been, that was nice upgrade to go with that new compensator!
Absolutely is a problem buddy just had this exact problem. Moter rebuild time sucks. Manual adjustment the way you want to go 4 sure. Thank you great video.
Thank you, I hope it didn't trash the motor too bad! For sure go with the manual adjuster, that way you know what the tension is!
Over tensioning by the auto tensioner can also be caused by chain slap. Remember that HD recommends shifting to 6th at 85km/h or 55mph. This lugs the engine into a chain slap condition.
That is an excellent point and another important reason Harley stresses to not lug the engines.
I miss the old 5pc cranks. I've assembled and trued dozens for Flat/Knuckle/Pan/Shovel/Block head motors with no failures. Late Shovels and Evos had 3pc cranks. Of course if ya want to make more power , go with T&O , S&S or Jims steel wheels. The steel wheels take a lot more torque on the shaft and crank pins nuts than cast iron wheels. And the tapers must be CLEAN and DRY.
It would sure be nice if they would go back to the old style cranks but I don't see it happening.
Really great to have a knowledgeable source of information.
Great piece. Question: Are there any companies that build/sell primary casings with a manual adjustment window? If not, seems like a great opportunity for someone to fill that niche.
That's a great idea, I'm not aware of any out there actually. They did away with the window after the 88 and went with a solid primary. That's a excellent idea though, I'll have to do some looking around.
I believe in manual tensioners...and the scissoring of the crank I think is from heavy on - off throttle that causes alot of for and aft torsion load on the pin. Love the vids keep em coming
Great point! On and off the throttle for sure creates some serious torsional load!
As always more great information. As far as the auto tension on the primary goes sounds great but too tight is no good and it can get that way too easily. I agree, go manual. Not a problem on my EVO.
I took mine out this summer and put the manual adjuster in I think it runs a lot cooler too
I wouldn't doubt it's running cooler at all, that motor isn't having to fight all the tension from the chain being over tightnened.
Congrats on the 25k subscribers! I love your channel. Simple solution, go back to the Evolution. Can you imagine where we would be if Harley invested in the Evo like they did on the Twin Cam? Evos with FI and CC would be awesome, especially if they exceed 100 cu in.
Thank you! I really think Harley made that Evo too reliable lol, it wasn't generating enough parts and service revenue. Now if they would of engineered the Twin Cam more like the Evo that would of been great, the Twin Cam could of really been the second coming of the Evo.
I have 53k on the Hayden in my 95 ultra.
Why didnt Harley go with a similar solution? Simple not complicated and works great.
Harley is just a traditional company and up until now they have been slow to move. Either forward or slow to fix mistakes, which is baffling to me.
My 2001 FLTRSE has the manual adjuster and CV carb conversion.Thank the Lord!
That is awesome!
The 110 was notorious for the crank shift when they first came out. Idk if they had auto adjusters on those early cvo 110.
The 110's had the same auto adjuster, it was basically the same engine as the 96 and 103. They just had a hotter cam, larger bore with pistons to match and some what better heads.
Wow. I am in the middle of discovering this personally. I am currently in the assembly phase of trying to recover exactly what this Man is saying. He is legit. I am switching from an "automatic Primary Chain Tensioner to a Maunual One. I dont subscribe to any channel here at UA-cam "University"!!!!! LOL I bought a manual chain tensioner from Drag Specialties. I am putting together a photo documentary to illustrate exactly what is in this video. He is exactly right and is a page I HIGHLY recommend that all Harley Owners subscribe to. HE NAILS IT. I appreciate you looking out for us Brother. Keep it Coming
I'm at 107,000 MI with no inner motor issues...I run Redline oils ...2011 Ultra
There's a lot to be said about high dollar quality oil, you get what you pay for!
I always enjoy the videos that you produce.I trust what you are telling us!my only regret is that you are too far away from eastern n.c. for me to carry my bike to you when it needs to be worked on. Keep up the good work,and thank you!
I can agree the automatic tensioner system is too tight, think about the clunk when you put it in first gear. However the manual tensioner if serviced is a better option, but the manual tensioner also has a tendency to break apart or drop the shoe the chain rides on. I'm going to say depending on what type of setup you run meaning cams, motor work essentially maybe the determining Factor. But obviously regular maintenance is absolute.
For sure there's no work around on the maintenance, with the manual you gotta keep up on that with the primary service interval. It's a pain to pull the primary but a small amount of work compared to having a major failure.
Can you provide any insight into the newest
version? The 39929-06C. I notice the ramp that
was metal on the A and B version is now polymer
like the shoe on version C. ls this strictly a cost
cutting measure per usual from Harley or do you
think the teeth being plastic will shear if the belt
becomes overly tight by the ratcheting? Thank
you
there's a revision to the original HD auto primary tensioner...seems to be working well with the new revision that i heard.
I'm pretty sure the issue is down to the dynamics of the engine. The crankshaft wobble you're referring to are called crank torsionals which are resultant of the engine, crank, and cam design. The tensioner it's designed to balance chain control and chain tension. The chain does not put stress on the crank, rather it has to deal with the dynamics of the crank.
Great video. I have a 2006 Road king custom. At 48,000 miles I changed the cams and plate to SE and 204 cams( stock 88, true duals, super sucker air filter), I also put in an auto primary chain adjuster. After about 100 miles the screaming coming from the primary showed an overnight chain, I scrapped the auto adjuster and put a new shoe on the manual one. With 75,000 miles on it now, no noise, and little wear on the hydraulic cam shoes. Changing the cam plate and staying away from the auto primary is definitely the way to go
No more than those primary chains need to be adjusted the manual is well worth the investment and peace of mind!
My primary was making a whirring noise so i pulled it off. It seemed that the chain was pretty tight although I could get the 5/8 slack, it was by putting enough force on the chain to compress the springs in the auto tensioner. I took the tensioner out and backed the wedge all the way to the loose end of the tension and put it back together. It seemed to work pretty well at first but after about 300 miles the noise seems to be coming back. Now that I see how easy it it to adjust the chain by removing the tensioner and resetting it, I think replacing with a manual adjuster is the way to go.
Getting a manual tensioner or a automatic like the Hayden is the best way to go. That factory manual tensioner will continue to ratchet up tighter in the loose spots in the chain. It takes up all the slack and doesn't give in the tight spots in the chain.
@@GixxerFoo is there any manual tensioners that you would recommend?
Would you recommend replacing the primary oil 20w50. With synthetic ATF fluid? I was told this will be way better.
I have heard of some people that have done it without any issues, but I personally just run the synthetic 20w50 myself in the primary. Switching from a dedicated primary fluid I didn't notice much difference other than just buying one product instead of 3.
When I bought my 22 Heritage one of the first things I did was weld the stock tensioner to 5/8" of play at tightest point.
For those who want to spend the best $100 dollars of your life consider adding a Southern Oregon Hot Bike "HB-125" Hydraulic Primary chain tensioner. Set it and forget it
Hydraulic is even better than the spring tensioner, it will still have some give in the tight spots of the chain.
@@GixxerFoo absolutely I have also seen how these newer style automatic tensioners will destroy a clutch basket as well
After looking at all types of tensioners this the one I will likely go with.
@@gsfinatic yep, ive put 100k miles on mine and its definitely worth the investment. If you own an Evo or anything compatible with the fitment of this tensioner its worth its weight in gold. Whoever invented this was a genius.
@@kennethwise7108 I have 2014 LTD 103 with 50k miles on it. Hasn't had any problems but still want to keep her going for a long time.
I’m surprised that you “only” have 25k subscribers!! Cheers, and thank you.
Wow, thank you!
I have lost track of how many times I've watched & forwarded this video. So I rode my friends 2016 Limited last night, he's done the Man O War Compensator up grade & went to the Hayden Tensioner. after it got warmed up I noticed a noise started like a heat shield & then I heard it mostly from the transmission on right side. when I got back to shop after fully warmed up & after high way speeds I noticed it noisy in 6 the gear , when I went to park it it was very noticeable. this morning I went to pull it back into shop & upon rolling & letting out the clutch it makes a CLUNK (Like your typical twin cam drop into 1st gear cluck) But every time with just the clutch . Talking with him he states he's been messing with the springs on the adjuster. I AM NOT SOLD ON THE HAYDEN. The Cone /Shovel Head & Evo never had any problems Furthermore ; I think the EVO style (Screaming Eagle) is the answer to this Clunking Slapping noise at this moment of time.
That's because you put out GOOD INFORMATION 👍 And you're a good teacher.
I appreciate that!
Do you think it makes sense to just make the switch from the stock compensator to a sprocket style, and a manual chain tensioner at the same time?
The automatic tensor gets crazy tight and does damage. I have a manual tensor on my Twin Cam.
They really do, it's scary how tight those things get!
On my 88th TC, someone installed such an automatic tensioner. As a result, the failure of the bearings and seals of the primary and gearbox
It only takes 10 min to adjust the chain and they say to about a half in. Of play is right so definitely use a manual tensioner
Tight belt happy belt loose chain happy motor and dont worry about that little sound when you engage the clutch not hurting anything.
Exactly, and that's a good way to run it right there!
All of this happened to my 07 Ultra Classic. It sucked bad, I loved the bike, hated all the money that thing costed me. It made me buy an Indian. I still have a Harley with a Timken conversion, and welded crank. It's still alive.
I couldn't agree with you more these automatic primary chain tensioner are a slow death..... evolution industries make a part called bump stop part #1070-1205 it stops the auto adjuster from over lighting I have 21 FLHXS AND the HD self adjustor doesn't fit ,the Hayden one is problems ,thank you again for all your info,
Replace compensater,replace auto tensioner to manual no oil leaks on trans.seal ...free wheeling, flow like water 👍🇨🇱🇺🇸✌️
Which manual chain adjuster for the primary chain do u prefer . I’m replacing the compensator with a man of war and the clutch from rekluse torque drive . Thanks
I like the straight manual adjusters myself, you can set it and you know where it's at with the chain slack. Yeah it's a pain to pull the primary and check it every 10K miles, but it's well worth it to save some potential headaches.
Having seen what automatic chain tensioners do to the Clutch basket, bearings, seals etc- I've gone back to a manual adjustor because in my opinion, slack on a Chian drive is vital...and I'd rather be riding than wrenching every weekend
Thanks again for another great video and detective work! Always wondered about those automatic tensioners and heard that they over tightened. I just stay with my manual tightener and will have to get a hydraulic for my’12 SG. Thank you other commenters for advice, I’m gonna check them out.
Thank you, I appreciate it! Manual or hydraulic is the best way to go!
Does that screaming Eagle tensioner noisy? I hear they are until you put some miles on it. That one by Southern Oregon has good reviews but like you I want the piece of mind.
I run the Haden tensioner on my 13 RG, haven't had any issues yet with overtight primary chain.
Owning, riding and loving my '07 Road King is a wonderful experience. Only problem is, all the ghosts and goblins lurking below. Compensators going bad, primary chains over tightening crankshafts scissoring, oh my !😳
I go down the road and wonder when any, or all, of these monsters will attack my beloved hog. Inspection gives peace of mind but wouldn't it be nice if the motor company dealt with these issues from the get go ?
Oh well it's a gorgeous Saturday morning and I'm going for a ride !
PS, manual adjusters get my vote. As well as an upgraded compensator and this winter will be the time to do it.
I am amazed at all of the bad press on auto tensioners… I talked with several techs at different HD dealers and every one of them said that they have never seen a failure from the tensioners. Also the forums say the same except for the few that claim that these auto tensioners are causing engine failures with no evidence or proof of such. All new Harleys have them and no inspection covers. I am no pro or expert, but I have to go with the techs and say that the auto tensioners are ok. I’m installing one in my 06 Ultra Classic … with a Drag Specialties compensator and Screaming Eagle clutch kit.
What would you recommended on 2021 M-8 107 for primary adjuster it is a stock motor
If you want a manual adjuster Baker Drive Train makes their Attitude Adjuster, it's a awesome little unit!
@@GixxerFoo thanks for getting back to me. and you have some awesome content
The three piece, built-up HD crankshaft assembly is basically 1895 de Dion-Bouton technology from the French engine that Harley-Davidson borrowed when building their first real engine in 1903-'04. Def needs updating.
They really need to go to a 1 piece assembly but Harley is always slow to move.
Well, I finally changed that primary tensioner on my 103 switchback. Got a SE manual adjusting one. After that, an issue of noise in the compensator showed and changed that too, went with a Dark Horse one. Only thing to bear in mind here is that 1/2" slack recommended by them. Otherwise, you'll end up with a noisy primary. Do you think I did a proper upgrade??
And, maybe it has to do with the fact that I've started drag racing my 88tc this year but my manual tensioner actually came very loose from the inner primary. Glad I noticed it right away. Other than that no issues what so ever.
😄😂 well when racing all bets are out the window there, that's a whole new environment. 👍 dang good thing you caught it though, that would of been very bad.
@@GixxerFoo especially with the American Prime Manufacturing clutch and Evolution Industries billet basket. Harley could've made a better choice in fasteners imo, but I'll make it work...locktite #263 🤣
At 90k I decided to change the springs on se compensator and replace the automatic tensioner with a manual adjuster after I got it back together that thing was making all kinds of noise so got it apart to investigate, probably end up putting the automatic back in