Harley's Automatic Primary Tensioners are a Real Issue
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Harley's automatic primary chain tensioner sounds like a great idea on paper. But as miles accumulate some bad things start to happen and we begin to see things we'd rather not see. Like pinion shaft run out and the infamous Harley crank scissoring, or basically the flywheels shifting on the crank pin. Looser tolerances in the Twin Cam engines paired with an ever tightening primary chain are a bad combination!
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Would you go with a manual primary chain tensioner or a spring loaded automatic tensioner like the Hayden?
Manual one! and checks every now and then😎 Good video again👍
After this video I would lean toward the manual tensioner.
The best one out there in my opinion is from Southern Oregon Hot Bike and its Hydraulic. Never had any issues with it and it makes shifting and finding neutral a breeze. I throw one on every HD I have owned and recommend them to all of my friends. Can't beat it for $100
I found the one that is identical to the South Oregon Hot Bike on Dennis Kirk catalog for 80 bucks, part number 18-0120
Manual always and forever
I worked at H-D at the time in the Engineering Dept (not an engineer). I don't remember the automatic chain tensioner being considered a problem related to the flywheel scissoring problem. The scissoring problem was a big deal at Harley and pressed together flywheel strength was studied extensively to determine cause(s). Several changes were implemented to reduce or eliminate the problem although there is only so much you can do with a pressed together flywheel vs a one piece forged crankshaft. Problems we found (to the best of my memory).
1. Production line parts cleaning fluid was not being changed often enough (to save money) causing parts with slight oil film to be pressed together. Study showed oily parts in press fit caused significant measurable decrease in flywheel strength. Solution- change parts washing fluid more often.
2. The flywheel truing process causes the press fit to be manipulated causing a decrease in flywheel press fit strength (the more the flywheel is trued by hydraulic press or old fashioned hammer blows, the weaker it gets). Solution was to possibly assemble the flywheel more accurately so that the flywheel would be true without any manipulation of the pressed parts. This is one of the reasons the flywheel runout tolerance was increased from the original 0.0015" as they found flywheels could not be pressed together without separate truing and meet the .0015" tolerance.
3. Larger displacement engine (110cu in vs previous 103,95,88) combined with bikes generally getting heavier over time and possibly some occasional engine lugging by folks not downshifting into correct gear when putting around a parking lot at low speed. There was a mechanic I worked with who was involved in studying the problem and he could scissor a flywheel on command by riding a bike ( I think he would lug the bike around slowly in too high of a gear and input lots of throttle). We've probably all done it and felt the herky-jerky motion created by not downshifting properly. Solution was to change the throttle calibration to not allow as much power input if the bike was in too high a gear for the current wheel speed. Lot's of police bikes were built with 103's (stock tuning) and to my knowledge the scissor problem didn't appear until the 110 motor was released in 2007 to the general public.
4. The straight roller left main bearing may contribute to scissoring problem by not holding the flywheel as rigidly as the previous tapered timken.
I could see possibly where the automatic primary tensioner could contribute to the flywheel scissoring once the flywheel has begun to scissor as the flywheel output shaft running out of true would cause the primary chain to tighten/loosen/tighten possibly causing the tensioner to ratchet tighter and tighter over time. Not here to defend the automatic primary chain tensioner. It may be part of the problem but I don't think it is the only factor. There's my two cents.
That's a very heavy 2 cents and some awesome input! Likely why every Harley owners manual stresses to not lug that engine, that's a lot of force on the flywheels with the engine design!
@@GixxerFoo Indeed - that was more like two thousand pennies 👍👍
That wasn't merely two cents' worth; that was two thousand cents. Fascinating and very well-written insights and account. Thank you, kindly! 👍
From southern California ~ Ride Forever! 🦅
It makes perfect sense that the automatic chain tensioner wouldn't be the only problem, but exacerbates a plethora of manufacturing related, and rider related issues. I could 100% see the case, though, that once it begins to scissor at all, the chain tensioner continuing to ratchet tighter and tighter would significantly accelerate the process. GREAT information from both Gixxer and Mike.
I'm a new subscriber since purchasing my first HD. It's a used, 2011 Heritage Softail w/ a stock 103 engine. I've wrenched plenty of bikes over nearly five decades but never really messed around with Harleys. What I like about your vids is that you offer food for thought. This vid is the perfect example. What came first, the looser tolerances or the automatic chain tensioner? As an old British bike fanatic (mainly Bonnies and Tridents) I'd put my money on the auto-tensioners for messing things up more than the looser tolerances. Mind you the old Triumphs never had auto-tensioners but sure had plenty of people that over-tightened the dog poo out of the primary chains...leading to various ugly disasters.
Anyhow, keep up the good work GixxerFoo. For a young guy you sure have your finger on the finer technical issues, good and bad, of this Milwaukee iron, and that's commendable. The devil's always in the details isn't it?
Thank you for the subscription, I really appreciate it! The devil really is in the details, the auto tensioner cam after the looser tolerances. The loose tolerances started on the 88 but it had a manual tensioner. We didn't see these issues on the 88's, the problem started in 2007 with the 6 speed transmission. It was blamed on the trans which had some seal issues and then the compensator failures the same year. The only thing that was changed was the auto tensioner over the manual. On a Harley it's best to err on the side of caution and run it a bit looser, tighter on a Harley isn't always better in the drive train.
Planning to put in a Screaming Eagle compensator and manual chain tensioner this winter on my 2012 TC96. I think you are 100% right.
That's a excellent plan! After a OEM compensator fails I always recommend going with the SE, oddly it's cheaper and for sure better than OEM. With the manual tensioner kept adjusted you shouldn't have any issues going forward.
While in my primary installing a Baker comp. I also installed an attitude adjuster. Your video reinforces that decision. Keep 'em coming!
That's some solid upgrades right there, save you a lot of headaches down the road!
I 100% agree. In my 08 Dyna big twin I've found multiple issues thanks to your videos stemming from the tensioner including one I hope you do a video on soon. The overtightened chain created a primary leak that damaged the primary seal, bearing, and walked in / grooved race I replaced yesterday. Thanks to your video I now see I likely now pull the 6 speed to do bearings on too since my leak continues. What you missed about the correlated compensator issue though is that often the sprockets, while showing wear, might mask what in my case was the underlying hard start issue, the alternator rotor with integrated spring pack. The spring lost torsional force falling to push out sprockets and the internal magnets on opposing side were loose enough I was miles from them falling into and destroying stator. I even needed a starter ring gear on the clutch basket from the chain pulling so hard on basket and bearings it chipped teeth, sheered a few. Your videos really saved this guy used to Ironheads big $$$ on repair guidance! The technical approach helped me understand the failures enough to make insights and know what I needed to do in last couple weeks and now I know where to be looking to next in addressing my primary leak. Thanks. :)
That's awesome! Good to hear you caught that stuff and are getting it taken care of! There's just so many obscure things with Harleys depending on which year you have.
@@GixxerFoo In your opinion is there anything else I should look at to determine the primary oil seal leak? The trans doesn't leak so I'm mixed on pulling it to check bearings. Thinking race alignment maybe, but I used the removal collar tool to gap so the seal lip should be seated correctly when I seat the primary in relation to bearing / seal. It's been frustrating ha ha...
Damn interesting hypothesis. During last rebuild (103 to 110 CVO) upgrade,I had crank split, with new pin, rods and bearings and then welded by revolution. Installed new SE compensator as well as new tensioner. The original compensator was shot but the tensioner was still decent. Motor had 56k miles. I noticed now that the engine (floorboards) are very smooth at about 60 and is like glass at 90. I attribute that smoothness to the crank work. Anyhow, these 45 degree motors got lots of engineering compromises. I’ve not had transmission bearing issues (yet).
Getting a built crank in there makes a huge difference!
Hi, thanks for the video. I agree with you in that the automatic tensioner needs to go! You're Right, nobody EVER talks about the fine-splined sprocket shaft although it experiences much more abuse than the pinion shaft of the flywheels. I sure wish H-D would use an interference press-fit plug in the crankpin to solidify the flywheel assembly like Darkhorse does, that would eliminate a lot of problems with that whole assembly! Thanks again for your excellent video!
Thank you, I appreciate it! Dark Horse really has it figured out, they make some damn good products.
Never had an issue with the automatic primary chain tensioner on my stock 96" FLTR with over 196K on the original drivetrain.
Good news, but, you must never ride aggressively?
@@milomanx6531 I ride for fun, defensively, and to maximize the value of the time and money I have in all three of my Harleys. The most "aggressive" riding I do is on my stock 94 80" Evo FXR. I count on the reliability of all three bikes to get me there and back especially with the long distance touring I do with the Road Glide. I believe if I treat my equipment well, it will do the same in return.
Love your content. You make these issues easy to understand for the lay person. Love the twin cam content, I may never be able to afford an M8, so my 88 tc in my Road King Classic is my future. Thanks again!
I am not sold on the M8's, they are still having some issues so I would say the Twin Cam would be a better choice.
Easier way to check chain tension on automatic adjusters is to remove derby cover and stick a slim screwdriver in there sideways to move the chain up an down.
I usually get 3/8 to 1/2 movement which is spec.
Never had a problem with auto adjuster on my 2011 softail or my 2014 rk.
I check them every 5 k when I change fluids and adjust clutch.
That's exactly what I would highly recommend if you elect to run a manual tensioner. A lot of the problem starts when the bikes get some miles and the chain starts to stretch a bit with normal wear.
All makes perfect sense. My 2022 FLHTK has 2700 miles and that turd is coming out!!
I took mine out this summer and put the manual adjuster in I think it runs a lot cooler too
I wouldn't doubt it's running cooler at all, that motor isn't having to fight all the tension from the chain being over tightnened.
Yes the Atomic Tensioners are definitely not a good thing at all !!! I have the Baker Compensator and the Baker Attitude Solid Chain Adjuster on my bike.
Yup. I got rid of the automatic chain tension and i webt with a hydraulic and i love it...
I'm at 107,000 MI with no inner motor issues...I run Redline oils ...2011 Ultra
There's a lot to be said about high dollar quality oil, you get what you pay for!
Absolutely is a problem buddy just had this exact problem. Moter rebuild time sucks. Manual adjustment the way you want to go 4 sure. Thank you great video.
Thank you, I hope it didn't trash the motor too bad! For sure go with the manual adjuster, that way you know what the tension is!
Automatic chain tensioners have always been a bad idea, and never seem to work right. That applies to ANY chain tensioner. The automatic cam chain and primary tensioners on Harley Davidsons are only one example. I have seen a lot of Japanese bike engines destroyed by failed automatic cam chain tensioners. I have been riding Kawasaki Vulcan 750s since 1993, when I bought my first new one. The cam chain tensioners lasted about 10,000 miles before the cam chains started rattling. I replaced them with a new set of oem tensioners, and the same thing happened. As far as I know, this problem affected every Kawasaki Vulcan 750 ever made, and they were made from 1985-2006, unchanged except for paint colors. Many engines wound up getting destroyed because owners did not realize the tensioners had failed. Finally an aftermarket company came up with a manual cam chain tensioner the solved the problem. I am now on my third Vulcan 750 and have those manual tensioners on it.
The problem with the Kawasaki tensioners is that the threaded plunger assembly was made out of hardened steel, and the threaded housing was made out of soft aluminum. The constant pounding on the plunger by the cam chain destroyed the soft aluminum threads in the housing. But even all steel automatic tensioners have been known to stick. Both my Harleys (an FXRS and an EVO Sportster) have manual primary chain tensioners.
Yes, the factory tensioner is to tight. Just did a primary rebuild for a buddy's 09 FatBob Was not impressed with the automatic tensioner. Next service he wants to go to a manual tensioner. I agree, the stock one puts to much stress on the output shaft and bearings.
It gets worse with mileage as that chain develops the loose spots it ratchets up an takes out that slack. So you can imagine what happens in the tight spots of the chain at that point.
I have never been convinced that an automatic tensioner is best for your primary chain. Simply checking the tension every time you swap the fluid is adequate. I’ve accidentally run the manual tensioner loose enough to hear it slapping the inside of my primary with no adverse effects.
Totally agree, you want to have the chain just right but looser is better than tight.
Thank you so much GixxerFoo for your videos on the EVO motor especially info on cams!
Great video , but i would like to see some of the different designs og manuel chain adjusters . Pros and cons of them
Great suggestion! They are pretty simple little units, even the automatic adjusters on the aftermarket even more simple than the oem automatic.
@@GixxerFoo it would make a good follow up episode :) i see in the coments that there are some hydraulic ones too
Not bad Gixx, doubled your subs in just a year, congrats!
Always informative and thought provoking. I've got an 07 FatBob 96. Interesting to see the cost cutting measures that Harley took (and continues to take) on their bikes. One can understand why there is such a large market for Screaming Eagle and aftermarket upgrade parts. As has been pointed out, one could build a better Harley without using any Harley mechanical parts. Similar to tha 1911 and the AR15 situation in the gun world.
@Peter Angles nothing to say about Harleys? Just another troll with nothing to add. I don't recall mentioning Les Baer, but since Peter makes assumptions has, I was referring to some of the cheaper guns available on the market. Not everyone can afford a Les Baer. Thanks for your pointless comment. Try sticking to the topic next time.
Well all good, but I done 196000 + km (122,500 miles) no issues, not thrashed, but ridden and well maintained and used nearly daily, used well on highways, OK, 08 ultra, just saying Rien in OZ (PS I worked too hard to get it and still have it, put a new stock103 in her now only because I could it was still running well!))
Thank you ...
Excellent video and it all makes sense. Thanks.
Thanks brother…
Any time!!
I do think you're on to something. It makes perfect sense.
After how many miles will this tensioner problem happen?
How do I tell if the primary tensioner is bad? I have a bad whine coming from my primary case which seems to only be getting louder. Everything is working fine though. Pulled the cover off but everything looks fine to me.
That whine could possibly be the auto tensioner over tightening the chain, you get that with a manual tensioner if you overtighten the chain too.
I pulled it apart and removed the tensioner. It has grooves in it but doesn't look too bad for having 80k. I don't know if the previous owner ever changed it. Im trying to figure it out without having to take it somewhere, but don't know what im looking for
I hadn’t heard anything about this until this video. I just got a ‘21 low rider S and have a little over 2k miles on it. I’m ready to pull it apart and change out yet another bad Harley design in that chain tensioner. I’ve been looking everywhere online and can’t seem to find anything for my low rider S. I find plenty for dynas and twin cams and touring M8s but not my softail. Any ideas?
Hayden has one, it's an automatic but it's a better design that sill allows for the tight and loose spots in the chain, here's the part Hayden Enterprises M6BT17-M8. So far that's about the only one for M8's I've seen out there so far.
@@GixxerFoo Thanks!
04 FLHRI have the issues you describe?
Those still had a manual tensioner and the 5 speed so you're good to go. Auto tensioner started in 07 with the 6 speed trans and everyone blamed the trans. Wasn't the trans lol.
@@GixxerFoo Appreciate the quick reply!!
Hey GF, your channel has grown because you provide quality content that is pertinent to HD riders. Until today I have never heard of crankshaft scissoring or problems with the automatic chain tensioner. That's why I come here.
Thank you I really appreciate it! It's just a lot of obscure things I've learned over the years, I see too many people buy a used Harley only to have a major issue.
Pressed crankshafts are and always will be prone to twisting out of line if used wrongly. SPG made excellent racing crankshafts using a pressed construction for vw flat four engines. Bullet proof until you held high revs and dump the clutch. Instant wrecked engine cases. Use it conservatively and you will not have a better balanced crank.
As for chain tensioners.
Automatic tension devices are for cam chains and where maintenance wants to be reduced. Far better to remove the need and use a gear train instead. As for belts. They are for holding up trousers.
Who remembers the shelf struggling to stay afloat? Good times.
😄😂 those were the days, I almost hated to change it since it was such a conversation piece.
🤣🤣🤣
Ayuh wonder when that was going crash
👍
omg 🤣
Harley increased the allowable run-out so they could weasel their way out of warranty claims. That's one of the things that definitely left an impression on me about the Integrity of Harley-Davidson as a company.
The high tolerances are for sure not right, that makes a lot of sense!
Talk about the HARD-ON the EPA/DOT has had for HD Since at least 1995 at mininum.. This is a Huge Part of the Multitude of Problems with HD these Days. And another part is the New Age Bean Counters.
ABSOLUTELY the the Chain Tensióners are part of this Abortion. Along with Super High Pressure Valve Springs. Hey Fellas!! Stay below. 550 Lift and 5800 RPM and your Twin Cam will live longer PERIOD!! And for the 'B' Motors find a Electionic Balancer.. Do the Crank a Throw the Balancers Under the Work Bench Plug the Oíl Hole and Forget about it . And Install a Manual Chain Tensióner.. Or Better Yet get yourself a S&S V111 EVO. Have Fun ✌️
@@donalbershardt9290 The Yamaha Road Star NEVER had a "multitude of problems" in sixteen years of manufacture starting in 1999 - EPA/DOT or no EPA/DOT. Air cooled single pin solid crank with side-by-side automotive style rods set at 48 degrees. Gear driven, pushrod activated cams. Gear driven primary. Four valve heads. Belt final drive. So that's the end of that biased and highly erroneous assessment. Rather, Harley's multitude of problems where cause by, well, the Harley-Davidson Motor Company in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. 😏
Your logic makes perfect sense to me. In light of this information, I think I'd rather have a manual tensioner. I'd be ok with checking the manual tensioner once in a while if it kept that stress off of everything else. Great info, as always.
Thank you! It's for sure nice knowing where your tensioner setting is at and not just leaving it to chance with the automatic.
@@GixxerFoo Thought about getting the automatic and read about some problems with them on HD's website. Decided that it is easier to do it manually. There is no visible wear on mine at 54k miles so...don't fix it if it ain't broke.
I put a Screamin Eagle manual tensioner in my softy bout a year and a half ago and wish I had done it sooner, yeah, a little more work to adjust it but I don’t have to worry about my chain feeling like a guitar string especially when laying a roller lol. Shifts better too and the bonus is by taking the outer primary cover off once a year, I can really see the condition of everything and thoroughly clean/inspect everything.
Getting some eyes in that primary is never a bad thing! Great to hear that manual tensioner is working out for you!
I took the automatic tensioner out of my dyna at 25 k miles and replaced it with a Hayden M6 .The bike now has 104 K miles and going strong . I like the hayden unit as it is so forgiving .
It's okay, Indian is going to help them decide to fix it.
Indian hopefully is going to push them in the right direction, like updating the touring chassis.
Congrats on your 25K sub milestone. Love your straightforward vids. I never thought of the tensioner creating an issue with the crank but makes sense. I briefly put in a hayden but read a lot of problems with it evidently being cheaply made. The springs and over all design of the hayden did not impress me. The concept was good, just not the execution, to me.
Thanks 👍, the I've seen good and bad results with the Hayden. They seem to work pretty well on the big twins, Sportsters is where they seem to have issues.
I have 53k on the Hayden in my 95 ultra.
Why didnt Harley go with a similar solution? Simple not complicated and works great.
Harley is just a traditional company and up until now they have been slow to move. Either forward or slow to fix mistakes, which is baffling to me.
Why not simply go to gear drive like Indian? Seems to make sense.
Harley would have to unitize the motors, which would be the safest option. The rest of the world uses gear drive but Harley is very slow to change.
Yamaha had one piece crank starting in 1999 with the Road Star on a single pin, gear driven cams gear driven primary set-up with pushrods, air cooled, belt final drive.
Manuals work fine. Complexity is bad. End of story.
I know how to solve this problem! Buy a Japanese bike ! They don't even have any of this old primary bullshit! I have a Yamaha FJR with 80,000 mile and nobody has ever seen the engine , except the people who built it! The only wrench ever used on it is changing the oil filter!
Harley's the only game in town these days with the chain primary.
Been using Haydens M6 primary chain tensioner since 1998 on my 86 FLT. No problems so far. This video gives me another reason to look at our 2014 FLHTCU with suspicion lol. Been subscribed since the shelf was sagging. Your content has always been good. Keep it up!
Thank you! You've been on the channel for quite a while! The Hayden is an awesome system, Harley should of used a design like that.
The automatic tensor gets crazy tight and does damage. I have a manual tensor on my Twin Cam.
They really do, it's scary how tight those things get!
i agree wt U. but once again we have to buck up to correct the mo-co's lousy engineering, if we don't spend the $150 on their product plus their labor cost, we will be trying to get a destroyed motor fixed by them. good luck wt that. we spend $20,000 plus on a bike, only to spend more to correct or repair it.
That's the really crappy thing about Harley and how so slow they react fixing things, if they ever do.
That's because you put out GOOD INFORMATION 👍 And you're a good teacher.
I appreciate that!
I’m a Harley mechanic for over 25 years now and I’ve seen nothing but problems caused by the automatic primary chain tensioners
They're only an issue if you're constantly hammering on and off your throttle really hard on your bike. If not they'll last up to 100,000 mi no problem
Thanks for the informative video. Sadly, I recently had to learn about this issue the hard way. The Automatic HD chain tensioner, which obviously had been running too tight for some time on my 2010 Ultra caused a lot of damage and many components had to be replaced at a significant cost to me. Not that there is ever a good time for this sort of unexpected expense, but this really came at the worst time possible. Of course the Harley dealerships will play all kinds of games and rack up a big invoice for you, but HD itself will never take responsibility for this sort of engineering mistake, so the owners are left dealing with the issue out of pocket. All this happened with only 37k miles on the bike. On the other hand, my 1999 FLHTCI has 137k (exactly 100k more miles than my 2010) and never had any such issues! After much research, I arrived at the same conclusion as you, and your video further solidified the fact that the auto chain tensioners are the issue. I only wish someone had told me a few years ago so the cost of repair would have been a few hundred dollars, rather than several thousand dollars! Thanks and please keep up the good work.
Thank you and sorry to hear about your bike. Yeah Harley doesn't admit fault, they just quietly fix things without any kind of announcement.
@@GixxerFoo I understand there are multiple options for a manual chain tensioner. Do you have any recommendation as to which works best?
Replace compensater,replace auto tensioner to manual no oil leaks on trans.seal ...free wheeling, flow like water 👍🇨🇱🇺🇸✌️
Gixxerfoo Good day.
Buddy, I have a question. What is your take on the new automatic Harley? Davidson primary chain adjusters, I had a 2014 low rider and sure enough that chain was tighter than shit. So I put a Hayden in there and it cured the problem I purchased a 2024 low rider ass. And thinking it would have the same problem. I purchased another Hayden primary chain adjuster for the M8 to my surprise when I pulled the primary cover off. The chain was adjusted perfectly had plenty of Spring action and it just looked great. I'm thinking I should leave it. It must have changed something it looks different I didn't take it out and examine it, but it does look different. I'd like to know what is your take on this.Your opinion is hell very strongly.In my book, thank you, buddy.Hope to hear from you soon.Have a good night
I bought my first Harley Davidson in September 2020 and it had 3400 miles on it when I got it. Ever since, it's been extremely difficult to go from 1st gear to neutral, so I find it easier to go from second gear to neutral. The bike has now done about 11,500 miles from new and I'm feeling guilty that I didn't research this topic sooner because I feel that if the tensioner has ratcheted tight, in the early days, then it's 11 thousand miles overdue for a manual adjuster. My mechanic said he'd do the changeover on the next service, which is in about 5000 miles time, but I'm thinking of getting it done sooner.
That's always a issue with a Harley, finding neutral but you get some slack in that chain and it works a lot better!
My 06 fxdli has had no tensioner issues, primary exposed twice in 26k of use. Overall its been a great running bike.
Can't complain about that, nothing wrong there!
Replaced mine on the 2007 Fatboy after hearing things from folks so glad I did. Thank you for this video. Brothers need to know.
Thank you I appreciate it! It's really good idea to get it replaced before it causes issues.
Own a stock TC88 02 FatBoy w manual tensioner. I always check the tension when doing the primary fluid change, and have barely needed to adjust it over the years. Like you, I like the idea of knowing what the tension is set to. I had the opportunity to change to the automatic adjuster, but felt the constant tension was too much, all the time. I felt that if I ever really needed to in the future, I could easily do it. That was over ten years…and I found no reason to change. Great video as always 👍😎
I like to know where my tension is set and not leave it to chance!
Good stuff, I have an '05 15th anniversary Fatboy with the old style primary adjuster like you, I love it also.
Was adjusting the chain last night 5th gear plugs out very hard to turn the rear wheel feels like a hard spot in the crank, try to get the chain 5/8 to 7/8 cold, but it seems like one size is really small and the other side is huge? stretch chain maybe.? Ty
I couldn't agree with you more these automatic primary chain tensioner are a slow death..... evolution industries make a part called bump stop part #1070-1205 it stops the auto adjuster from over lighting I have 21 FLHXS AND the HD self adjustor doesn't fit ,the Hayden one is problems ,thank you again for all your info,
For those who want to spend the best $100 dollars of your life consider adding a Southern Oregon Hot Bike "HB-125" Hydraulic Primary chain tensioner. Set it and forget it
Hydraulic is even better than the spring tensioner, it will still have some give in the tight spots of the chain.
@@GixxerFoo absolutely I have also seen how these newer style automatic tensioners will destroy a clutch basket as well
After looking at all types of tensioners this the one I will likely go with.
@@gsfinatic yep, ive put 100k miles on mine and its definitely worth the investment. If you own an Evo or anything compatible with the fitment of this tensioner its worth its weight in gold. Whoever invented this was a genius.
@@kennethwise7108 I have 2014 LTD 103 with 50k miles on it. Hasn't had any problems but still want to keep her going for a long time.
Can you provide any insight into the newest
version? The 39929-06C. I notice the ramp that
was metal on the A and B version is now polymer
like the shoe on version C. ls this strictly a cost
cutting measure per usual from Harley or do you
think the teeth being plastic will shear if the belt
becomes overly tight by the ratcheting? Thank
you
Great piece. Question: Are there any companies that build/sell primary casings with a manual adjustment window? If not, seems like a great opportunity for someone to fill that niche.
That's a great idea, I'm not aware of any out there actually. They did away with the window after the 88 and went with a solid primary. That's a excellent idea though, I'll have to do some looking around.
Great video sir!
You're very literate and easy to follow. (Many people posting videos don't know what they're doing)
I bought an '09 FLHX new.
Of course, they're all great when new, but eventually I suspected something was not right. I read blogs from different sites about the auto tensioner and decided to take a look.
I discovered that my primary chain was as tight as a piano string! Along with that, many bloggers also found their clutch hub splines broken on the inboard side of the hub. I found this problem on mine also. The majority of the splines were broken and pieces lying in the bottom of my primary. Some of the pieces were up to 3/8 inches.
So, I bought a new clutch hub, clutch hub bearing. I also replaced the inner primary bearing. (noises)
Bloggers complained too, that the compensator was not strong enough for the 96, so I replaced the original with a recommended S.E. compensator.
Yes, the auto-tensioner is garbage! Even though the cost of a different tensioner would not "break the bank", I altered my original tensioner to make it a manual adjuster. (I liked the components of the original) It cost me about $1.00 for a long stainless screw and nylock nut. Again, I can afford new parts, but at this point I'm pretty disheartened with the whole scenario, so in defiance, used my head instead of my wallet.
Currently, I have roughly 55k on my bike, and I like my bike. I shouldn't have to buy another to alleviate issues. But, every year now, it seems more issues keep popping up. I believe I have a collapsed lifter, but haven't addressed that yet.
I believe the faulty auto-tensioner has caused much of the mentioned issues, and there may be more to be found.
This is not right. You'd think that after all these years, Harley would be able to build a better product, or at least stand behind what they do build by fixing their mistakes?
In a perfect world, maybe.........
Thank you, I appreciate it! Harley just really went for more production and reduced costs while still keeping the premium price tag. The auto tensioner is for sure a huge contributor to a lot of the issues, good thing you found that broken clutch!
I have been working on Harleys since 1979. Great subject ! I believe you are actually on to something! Great show, I hope you keep growing viewers. You describe issues in a nutshell. I know it seems that the average Joe that understands the workings of a small block Chevy would be able to grasp the working of a Harley even though they are not the same. You are either a gearhead or you're not. I have seen guys cause problems on shovelhead's that was not the bike's fault. Although they did have some so called engineer's that must have lied about previous employment! Lol I would love the guy and get to question him about the single bolt on the exhaust! Really ! Haha thanks for a great show, keep up the great work ! AMF
Thank you, I appreciate it! Harley's are pretty simple, you just can't overthink things with those motors!
Why wouldn’t they use something like a chain adjuster like on a snowmobile… use a roller bushing or a bearing instead of a teflon glide system? For the primary.
When I did my last build, I went with Hoban Brothers Darkhorse Man O War crankshaft (they ensure it's balanced then weld the pin and provide a certificate with your total runout numbers), their Man O War compensator sprocket (in my opinion a better/simpler design than Baker's with the added benefit of being serviceable/rebuildable), and Southern Oregon Hotbikes HB125-07 primary chain tensioner. Topped her off with a Rekluse clutch and now she is smooth as silk.
I really like Dark Horse products, I feel their compensator eliminator with the cush drive was just absolute genius. It's really all you need in there and it works, like you mentioned rebuildable too!
Are you still running the same set-up? I'm really curious about the tensioner. Does it not over-tighten the chain like the factory one does?
Automatic tensioner is the devil. I use the authentic Hayden with zero problems. Don’t buy the knock-off! My next build I will try the HB125-07 from Southern Oregon Hot Bikes. I have no clue why Harley still uses the automatic tensioner.
Yes get the Hayden if you're going that route, the knock off is for sure not the same quality!
All these problems and not small ones that's why I will never own a HD. If HD really cared about the customer they would fix these major problems.
The automatic primary chain adjuster is a complete joke. I have been repairing and building motorcycles for 44 years. This issue has been around for quite some time and it only stems from 2 things. Harleys reputation for doing things half ass has been around a lot longer. The first issue is and has been since 2007 they have been putting out crap cranks. The 2nd issue has been the auto adjuster. This has been an area that you just can't do the adjustment automatically. The only thing this piece of junk did was damage a ton of engines, break compensators, and damage bearings which in turn sold a lot of parts and brought to light the terrible run out tolerances we see on too many engines. I do not agree that the problem is due completely from the adjuster but definitely magnified by it. They did in fact release cranks with over .008 runout. I've had engines with 250 some odd miles on them and when runout was suspected and then checked, yes sir run out of .008 was found several times. Now .003 is max but what you want is .001 or .000. Harley Davidson has been producing motorcycles that need upgrades sitting on the showroom floor right from the factory. Screaming Eagle parts are parts that should be installed new as oem. How many times has the aftermarket come to the rescue to take care of the obviously ignorant engineer's over at H.D. or my friends are they really stupid after all. I could really piss a bunch of people off here but I'll keep my comments mouth shut. Take it easy kid. Your doing a pretty good job. Gixxerfoo.
2013 RKC 55000 mi Stage 1, All stock after that.
My chain is about 5/8ths free play . checked thru hole with long screw driver !
Folks just ride!!! Have Fun! Old M/C Mechcanic age 69
Long Live 57 Pan ...
SURE DO LOVE MY EVO!!! LOL
There's a lot of problems you don't have worry about with the Evo that everything that came after it have.
@@GixxerFoo AMEN!!
I’m not surprised your channel is growing. Good info with no attitude.
Thank you, I appreciate it !
As always, very well narrated and in an understanding way. The chain tightening up as much as you explained would certainly put extreme force on the crank and clutch basket, I'll defiantly keep an eye on that. Love the picture of the three stooges behind you. Safe riding from England.
Thank you, I appreciate it! Getting a Hayden auto adjuster or going manual is a good plan!
there's a revision to the original HD auto primary tensioner...seems to be working well with the new revision that i heard.
I had that done ... new rods and had crank tried and welded.. ended up getting a runout of 0.0008" at the cam plate checked... and got the timing bearing done to the case.. smooth as silk
Every 10,000 don't you need to change the primary cover fluid or I'm I wrong on that?
Every 10K is your service interval on primary fluid.
@@GixxerFoo ok thank you
Damn, I've spent hours trying to find videos on primary problems with the Indian motorcycles but can't find anything. Oh that's right, they run gear driven primary's like my '14 Chieftain and other modern motorcycles.
Same thing with the Yamaha Roads Star - gear driven primary, gear driven cams. Single-pin solid unit crank with automotive style side-by-side rods. Not bulletproof ...Bomb Proof!
From southern California ~ Ride Forever! 🦅
2018 brakeout first I pulled my primary cover off ....I could not believe Harley uses this tensions torture device ìt was tight I believe it stretch the chain and with out doubt had it stayed installed would have destroyed bearings in crank and bearings for drive sprocket .noticed starter motor was quiter
That's exactly what those automatic tensioners do, they ratchet up too tight and pull everything together. It's not good for anything in the engine and transmission.
Yo brother Foo , I know I thanked u before about ur information videos, but man I'm a member of a couple different forums but I've learned more about the 07 and later twin cam engines from u than I have from being in those forums for several years now. So please , whenever possible, I d love to see more on the first year of the 96s starting in 2007. Have an awesome day, bro.
The first years of the 96's were pretty much the same as the 103, but after 2009 that's when they made the Screamin Eagle compensator the stock part after the failures. But they are same cams as the 103 up until the 103HO, just a little less bore but the same crank.
I believe in manual tensioners...and the scissoring of the crank I think is from heavy on - off throttle that causes alot of for and aft torsion load on the pin. Love the vids keep em coming
Great point! On and off the throttle for sure creates some serious torsional load!
Everytime I watch one of your videos it always gives me a warm & fuzzy about keeping my 02 RKC with its manual primary chain adjuster among other things you've talked about. When I change the primary fluid about every 5K, I give the primary chain a wiggle. If it's maybe a 1/2" at most, I call it good. I've adjusted it twice in 78.5K miles. Bike continues to hum along like it's still new. Congrats on 25K subscribers. Awesome! My favorite Harley channel. I miss the sagging shelf too.
That is awesome! I appreciate the support! It really doesn't need to be adjusted much, they don't stretch a whole lot just casually riding. I would for sure hang onto your 2002!
Plus you have a hot forged crank as well as the Timken bearing(s) on the sprocket shaft - both of which features were eliminated in '03. I reckon you've addressed the cam chain tensioners.
@@midnightmc3096 Yup. Changed those out at about 50K with the new setup.
You had really good information that could have been said in 5 minutes but you said everything three times. You need to write a script and stay to it and quit repeating yourself over and over and over.
The authorities asked me to have you sit in the corner until you're called on! Ty
Obviously the m8 isn't much better still Harley issues... And still way over priced for obsolete technology.
The M8 has it's own set of problems with the oil system, they still use the auto adjuster on those too.
I can agree the automatic tensioner system is too tight, think about the clunk when you put it in first gear. However the manual tensioner if serviced is a better option, but the manual tensioner also has a tendency to break apart or drop the shoe the chain rides on. I'm going to say depending on what type of setup you run meaning cams, motor work essentially maybe the determining Factor. But obviously regular maintenance is absolute.
For sure there's no work around on the maintenance, with the manual you gotta keep up on that with the primary service interval. It's a pain to pull the primary but a small amount of work compared to having a major failure.
I do basic maintenance on my bikes. Fluids, spark plugs, brake pads, chains etc. I really don’t have the interest to do more than that myself. I do enjoy your videos but they make me want to sell both my Harleys. Like I’m sitting on a ticking time bomb.
They are good bikes, sometimes it just takes a little extra for some insurance on the factory flubs.
I miss the old 5pc cranks. I've assembled and trued dozens for Flat/Knuckle/Pan/Shovel/Block head motors with no failures. Late Shovels and Evos had 3pc cranks. Of course if ya want to make more power , go with T&O , S&S or Jims steel wheels. The steel wheels take a lot more torque on the shaft and crank pins nuts than cast iron wheels. And the tapers must be CLEAN and DRY.
It would sure be nice if they would go back to the old style cranks but I don't see it happening.
Changing from a automatic tensioner to a manual or hydraulic tensioner will also make shifting easier and quieter Oregon hot bike thanks attention for pretty reasonable ching ching.
Great point! You'll also be able to fine neutral quite a bit easier as well!
Which manual chain adjuster for the primary chain do u prefer . I’m replacing the compensator with a man of war and the clutch from rekluse torque drive . Thanks
I like the straight manual adjusters myself, you can set it and you know where it's at with the chain slack. Yeah it's a pain to pull the primary and check it every 10K miles, but it's well worth it to save some potential headaches.
Would you recommend replacing the primary oil 20w50. With synthetic ATF fluid? I was told this will be way better.
I have heard of some people that have done it without any issues, but I personally just run the synthetic 20w50 myself in the primary. Switching from a dedicated primary fluid I didn't notice much difference other than just buying one product instead of 3.
I like your reasoning with the chain tensioner . You're not the only one out there that has this same theory.
It's always good to know your not alone! They were pressed on the 88's and didn't have any issues, a lot of manufactures used pressed cranks with no issues. Lol they don't use automatic tensioners that locks the chain in place either. Then again they are mostly gear driven too.
What would you recommended on 2021 M-8 107 for primary adjuster it is a stock motor
If you want a manual adjuster Baker Drive Train makes their Attitude Adjuster, it's a awesome little unit!
@@GixxerFoo thanks for getting back to me. and you have some awesome content
I have a 2016 softail heritage 103HO and I’m curious why they don’t have the small inspection plate for the primary chain tensioner even with the auto tensioner? I just thought it would be easier and cheaper to have it. Thanks for your input.
On my 88th TC, someone installed such an automatic tensioner. As a result, the failure of the bearings and seals of the primary and gearbox
Its unfair that we customers need to correct crappy design failures. I went with a Hayden. Seems to be working well.
Hayden is the way to go for a automatic tensioner. Honestly there's not many that are going to disagree on the customer being the test bed. We see it time and time again.
@@GixxerFooI think, if i could go back, i wouldn't have bought HD. I like it now after much changes and a liberal infusion of time and cash...
The Hayden seemed like the simplest & least prone to failure option.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. Love the channel !!!
Hayden on my 95 Softail..30K plus on it..no problems ,yet!
@@clarktferrill Good to know thanks.
Thanks for the video, bro. I have a 2007 FXDC that has 26,200 miles on it, n I'm just now installing a new manual adjusting primary chain tensioner. I hope it's not too late for it. Lately, I've noticed a vibration in 5th gear at about 55 mph and in 6th gear around 60. I really can't tell if it's coming from the engine or the tranny. Any ideas on how to figure this out ? Motor mounts seem to be good. Love the hell outta ur info videos. Love to see more on the 07 twin 96s
I would for sure get your new manual adjuster in and get it set, that could solver your issues. If you're getting vibration it may be coming somewhere else other than the engine or trans.
@@GixxerFoo Thanks a bunch, have a great day
If harley would just weld the crank, one problem would be fixed 👍the crank can't handle the power output of the 96'' and up engines
Great point, it for sure wouldn't anything if they did that.
My compensator on my 15 CVO Street glide shit the bed at 20k miles. I switched over to the Baker compensator and attitude adjuster manual primary chain tensioner. It’s a lot louder than the stock auto tensioner. That had me nervous for a good little bit. But 5k miles later, everything was sound and in good working order. I also notice my clutch is a little rattly / noisy when fully open. I wonder if all that excessive pressure from the auto tensioner is the culprit. I’m going to replace it with a rekluse and see if I tell a difference.
It's highly possible the auto tensioner could of cause of issues, they literally bind everything together when they ratchet up tight. I still firmly believe that was a cause of a lot of the failures on the 6 speed transmission when they first came out.
If I had the auto tensioner I’d replace it.
It's not a bad idea to get that out of there!
Until two years ago ,I've never owned anything other than a shovelhead . Bought an 06 fatboy and seems to have been cared for very meticulously. Bike only has 18k on it and I've put 5k of those. As far as automatic primary chain tentioner, the shovels never had them and I never had any problems. Seems like Harley , after making the dependable Evo really dropped the ball with the spring tentioners.
Really great to have a knowledgeable source of information.
Harley flywheels have been scissoring since before they started pressing them together, but the very first time a pressed together set did it everyone started acting like it was something unique to them.
In the 33 years I've been rebuilding and modifying Harley engine's I can honestly say I've seen it happen to more pre pressed flywheels than pressed one's, all this turmoil over it is proof of how people just latch onto something and make an issue of it.
They for sure could of used a solid crank pin, the aftermarket is always there to make it right though.
Yeah, people have this habit of "latching onto" things that grab their wallet and mood in a big way 🙄