LOVED THIS! Story wise I think it was actually really important that Minas Tirith battle was strategically inferior to Helm’s Deep because they had no real leader - the chaos and sloppiness was on point and they really were relying on the next big miracle to get them through. Love how you guys brought that out!
I appreciate the philosophy of Oxford professor Roel Konijnendijk: Where’s the ditch? Dig a ditch. Finished with the ditch? Dig another one. Actually, in Roman warfare the building of the fortifications, as mentioned in the “Plan to integrate obstacles” was a huge part. For instance, the battle of Dyrrhachium, where there was a race between the two sides for who could encircle the opponent with a longer wall. Loved this video, thanks for doing it!
When Aragorn went to the top of the steps, the Uruk-hai were no-longer able to surround him with their superior number, they had to line up and climb to him one by one single file while he waited (battle of Stirling bridge was similar). Great Video as usual.
Reinforces why Helm's Deep is my favourite of the movie battles - love the desperate last stand feel to the battle and I think they do a great job with the mood. Fun video!
I can handle tactical inaccuracies for the sake of the filmic experience, but what gets at me every time I watch lotr is that whenever archers are involved in battle scenes they are given the order “Fire”, which is senseless to a pre-gunpowder scenario. All of the effort spent on the detail of every sword and button yet no-one looked at the script and thought about wether “Shoot” or “Loose” might have been better? Really enjoyed your video though, brilliant idea for a critique.
I feel the same way with a lot of pre-firearm movies. I do give LotR a pass though, just because the idea in the books is that the events are being translated from their common speech to ours. So "fire" isn't what they're actually saying, but it's how we understand it.
Audacity for the win. I’d love to see a breakdown of the Battle of the 5 Armies in the Hobbit book, and to know if there are any real-life battles that are comparable.
There certainly are especially during the 1700s and 1600s, when increased globalization made warfare increasingly world-wide. One thing that comes to mind is the Battle of Blenheim, during the War of the Spanish Succession. In it, 52,000 British, Scottish, Austrian, Dutch, and Prussian soldiers fought against 56,000 French and Bavarians. There was also the Battle of the Nations, also known as the Battle of Leipzig, during the War of the Sixth Coalition, in which Austria, Russia, Sweden, Saxony, and Prussia defeated Napoleon’s France, along with Poland, Italy, Baden, and Saxony. There are more examples of this, but I can’t think of any now.
Struck by how similar you and your sister talk. Made me look back and see if my sister I do the same and that is true. Loved the content. Hope to see your sister and brother in law again.
As an ex-USAF medic 903x0 then shred out to Orthopedic clinic tech, Army Reserve Supply Sergeant, then civilian Intel guy now retired - I found the attempt to explain the battles per current doctrine very interesting. The tech in the movie is very dark age medium/heavy horse supported by heavy infantry transitioning to medieval (where Heavy Cavalry would dominate in our world) and the absence of aerial support (Giant Eagles air superiority mission against flying reptile air to mud support at the gates of Mordor truly made my blue heart flutter with excitement) overall a factor that could have changed the outcomes at several points. The Olipphaunts were awesome but the lack of supporting arms let them be attrited by desperate tactics. This was greatly enjoyed by me. Shared with others. Gracias, Glenn “Zorro” Wilson
I wonder ... were the uruk-hai emerging from the mud pits in the Two Towers newborn baby monster warriors; or were they veteran loyal goblin warriors getting a Captain America style upgrade thanks to Sarumans knowledge of the devices of Sauron (+ magic and stuff). It would explain how these brutes were "born" already knowing how to speak and having names, and knowing what a menu is. So they weren't toddlers after all ... maybe?
This was really fantastic. I turned 58 years old today but this took me immediately back to 30 years ago when I was an almost 30 year old officer in the US Air Force. I have to send this to a few of my friends who will definitely get a kick out of it. Well done, as usual.
I liked the comparison between Cinematic warfare and Modern warfare. All three had interesting things to say, as a student of War, I was Impressed. Though you have dealt with the major battles, all that remains are the Skirmishes. I would like to hear your opinions on the fight at Balin's Tomb, small unit Tactics.
Sorry for being late to the discussion as only discovered Jess a few months ago I think the majority point missed here is: military tactics and strategy are all very well and do okay into the story. At the end though, Tolkien wasn't writing strategy and tactics,the was writing a story. The story would have been less satisfying if he had, for example, given time for the defenders to deploy obstacles at Helm's Deep. So we have to keep in mind the arc of the story
In unofficial official military terminology, Legolas sliding down the stairs on a shield is called a quack bang. It's something so unexpected that the enemy stops for a split second to go "WTF," and disrupts the flow of the battle. Thank Fat Electrician for that term. Or more scientifically, it's called an Ooda loop.
Thanks for this one! I just discovered your UA-cam channel, and I'm enjoying jumping around among the videos you've accumulated. I really like this one. I've been a Tolkien lover since I first read The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings as a teenager back in the 1970s. I've re-read the books enough times to be on my fourth or fifth set. Beyond that, I've seen the Peter Jackson films several times. He did a magnificent job, although I have some gripes about changes and omissions. I'm also a retired Marine officer and have been studying military tactics, operational art, strategy, and grand strategy for fifty years, starting - again - in my teen years playing Avalon Hill and SPI war games with several friends. I've read and reviewed hundreds of books on all aspects of warfare for Goodreads. I started in the infantry, migrated into telecommunications and computers, and spent ten months in a formal school studying command and control systems. I also completed the coursework, by correspondence, for Amphibious Warfare School and the Command and Staff College, and I served as a company commander in the Fleet Marine Force. I also got quite a bit of experience studying both psychology and systems theory, analyzing problems and resources, and designing and implementing problem-solving systems in my post-military career as a psychotherapist and then as a public health program manager. So I have some background in common with both your brother in law and your sister. I would call the fight with the orcs in which Boromir died a meeting engagement. The Fellowship knew the orcs were hunting them, and the orcs knew in general terms where they were, but not precisely, so the two groups were both ready for a fight when they collided. The orcs had the initial initiative but it quickly broke down into a tactical brawl without effective overall direction on either side. The Fellowship were superior in their individual close range weapons, skills, and coordination; each side had one longer range weapon and operator, someone with a bow on each side. Legolas never really got to make full use of the range of his bow because he was having to fight at such close range - call it the equivalent of an artillery piece having to fire beehive rounds to keep from being overrun. The orc with the bow was able to use it as a standoff weapon to nullify the skill and better short range armament of Boromir. However, he succumbed to target fixation and enabled Aragorn to close to short range, too close for him to have a chance to use his bow (even if it hadn't been knocked out of his hands.) The outcome was also mixed. On the one hand, the Fellowship partially achieved their objective of getting Frodo to the point in his mission where he headed into Mordor - he meant to go alone, which would have been a disaster, but although it was good that Sam went with him, it would probably have been bad if the whole group had gone, because it would have been nearly impossible for a group that size to avoid detection and attack. On the other hand, the orcs also partially achieved their aims. They hit the Fellowship hard and reduced its effective strength by almost two thirds. Their capture of Merry and Pippin and the diversion of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli to pursue them took the initiative, the control of the tempo, away from the Fellowship. The orcs took a lot more casualties, but with their approach to combat, that wasn't so important - their style was more human wave (orc wave) attacks anyway, and they came in such numbers that it demonstrated their command structure was comfortable with heavy losses and prepared for them. They had a lot of orcs, but the Fellowship only had a handful of combatants, and only the men, the elf, and the dwarf were better fighters than the orcs. The hobbits were courageous but would have been very quickly overwhelmed on their own. After that skirmish, it was only the intercession by the Rohirrim, something neither the orcs nor the remnant of the Fellowship could have anticipated, that prevented the orcs making it to Isengard with the two hobbits. Had that happened, Saruman would have learned about Frodo heading into Mordor to destroy the Ring and passed that on to Sauron. So the fact that this didn't end up as a catastrophe was more luck than anything else. Of course, luck often plays a big part in warfare. Helm's Deep: what your brother-in-law called Engagement Area preparation, the Marine Corps would call Intel Prep of the Battlefield. Same thing - choosing your defensive ground, preparing your physical defenses and positioning your troops, analyzing avenues of approach and how you will cover them with combined arms. I'd add that if you had time, you'd set up obstacles to channel the enemy into kill zones to stall their momentum and get maximum effect from your weapons systems. I agree that the defenders failed to set up any kind of obstacles - on the one hand, the orc army was so big it probably wouldn't have made much difference, if any - but they should have tried. Also, it was a catastrophic mistake to overlook the weak point in their defensive system that culvert created. Even without the explosives, the orcs could have gotten through that grate much more easily than the rest of the defenses. That should never have been left so vulnerable, and it should have been covered with ranged weapons well ahead of time. As your sister and brother-in-law pointed out, the defenders didn't really have any indirect fire weapons, and that's baffling for a fortress that they'd been preparing for a long time. They should have had quite a few catapults. I started as a mortarman, so that jumped out at me. I wondered why the defenders waited as long as they did to open fire - that first bowman was clearly in range for an effective shot, so they should all have been firing at that point. Having ranged weapons does you no good if you don't exploit their range. I also wondered about all the soldiers on top of the wall choosing to be armed with long spears, not the most effective weapon for a very short range melee. They'd have been more effective if they'd all had swords and/or axes. Minas Tirith: Where were the eagles that showed up to fight the Nazgul in the last battle? They could really have used them at Minas Tirith. For that matter - why didn't they just have eagles fly Frodo and a couple of people for backup directly to Mount Doom from Rivendell? Of course, that would have made for a lot shorter story.
Your brother in law reminds me of Russell from Up all grown up... something about the hat, collared shirt, and the memorization made me think he'd have all the patches...
Lovely guests, thank you for your service to our country! Honestly, I never thought the fighting in LOTR was realistic at all, but you have changed my mind. I would love y'all's thoughts on he barrel fight in The Hobbit.
Hell the rain would help keep fire assaults at bay. I mean the defenders were holding their own and even winning, until the attackers sent that suicide-bomber troll in to blow out the wall.
USA Veteran a scene not in the movie, death of Sauramon. In the books Treebeard let's the Wizard go. Fellowship runs into the wizard and Wormtounge enroute to Riverdale. Battle of the shire was omitted from the movies, yet a near perfect hobbit ambush on the ruffians. Character development of Froto who does not want to bear arms, and offers Sauramon pitty, like Gandolf. Veterans feel similar weary from battle the return home to relax but find in Thier absence evil has taken over.
So Orcs aren't evil? They're actually Chaotic Audacious. Check! I really like the visceral nature of the battle scenes, especially Helm's Deep. It's over-the-top high fantasy, for sure, but when they're mowing thru the horde on horseback, or even on foot, and bodies are flying left and right, and it has a very solid feel to it, it just works cinematically. And Tolkien's fight scenes are really about the dramatic rather than the militarily accurate. Great video! (I really like your dress too btw.)
Aragorn also had other advantages in a fight. He was a bit of a throwback to the old race of Man in Tolkien's mythology making him stronger, faster, and tougher than a man like Boromir. Aragorn wasn't fully what the ancient Men were, some of them were almost equivalent to the Elves in physical prowess but he was close enough to negate the Uruk-Hai physical advantages, I'd guess. Also, in the book at least, Aragorn was huge.
An historical note on the first part of this video. Do you remember Cyrano de Bergerac? He was a real person. And he did take on a hundred or more opponents --- and won. We don't have any details on how it happened only that it did.
In reality, medieval sieges took a long time, sieges on various keeps, castles and/or fortresses could litteraly take up to several months, the main objective of a siege is to force the defenders into submission by for example to starve them into a surrenders, if the ones laying the siege could commit a siege without risking lives in battle, they would, the army is there to take over the fortress, not to smash it. But that's just how it were.
2:25 *_Hive mind? Absolute Nothing unison about the Orcs Assault, it is a free for all assault, main objective is whoever wins, gets the hunting trophy_* . *_From a realistic standpoint it is completely plot armour, because let's say generously the Hero stands 6ft at 200lbs a well above average weight and height for era_* . *_Uruk Hai orcs stand on average 6'6" 330lbs of muscle an bone [with variation of course]_* . *_realistic scenario the hero would have surrendered rather than fight a horde, if the horde followed the rules of war, for bargaining for high ranking prisoners_* . *_If not, then the hero would have been dismantled like a wounded fox unsuccessfully fleeing from a Wolf pack_* .
I had some slightly different thoughts based on years of playing Total War and reading up on ancient and medieval warfare. The point about Helm's Deep is that it takes away the numbers advantage because there is a limited area that the attackers can approach from, so it is a very good place to have a fight using that kind of weapon. It's one of my pet peeves with Peter Jackson's adaptation is that he doesn't understand the details of that era of warfare - he has Gandalf etc try to portray that retreating to Helm's Deep as a bad decision, but the flow in the book is very different. Firstly, being mostly cavalry, Rohan wants to meet the enemy on somewhat of an open field but they know they are already outnumbered. There is a small force under the control of a character called Erkenbrand who is trying to stop Saruman's forces at the Fords of the Isen, and this matches perfectly with what Kobe was saying about Engagement Area Development. The Uruk-Hai (and Dunlendings) can only cross in limited numbers which takes away the fact that they have a greater number of troops, and it's impossible to cross the river in a way that lets you set yourself up for defence. As each group of soldiers reach the opposite bank, a cavalry charge would quickly deplete their number, so they couldn't establish a anchor point that would let them set to stop cavalry and allow the rest of the army to join up with them. Theoden's army marches out to reinforce Erkenbrand because despite having the territorial advantage, they were only a small force so any losses were critical. In the book, they meet someone fleeing from the fords and pivot to Helm's Deep as it's their best defensible position, even if it's not ideal for an army that is heavy on cavalry, while Gandalf rides off to see what he can do about the remainder of Erkenbrand's forces. It's desperate, but similar to the battle at Thermopylae, if you can use features like the terrain to protect your flanks, you can limit the number of enemies that can approach and the direction of their attacks. I wish the script had kept to this version - it doesn't make Theoden look like an idiot who doesn't know how to use his army! A flaw in both Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields in the films is that in both times the orcs are given a chance to set themselves in something close to a phalanx formation and charging those with cavalry was almost certain to fail. The first riders in the wedge would die upon the massed spears, and the ones behind would do little better. You had to attack a phalanx from the sides or the rear. In the books, there isn't a dramatic pause before the charge, the charges happen and their into the back of armies that hadn't had time to prepare, partly helped in the Pelennor Fields by the existance of a wall that the army of Mordor had knocked holes in to, and hadn't realised that the Rohirrim could filter through and set themselves up for the charge, so this helps to justify why they are in such poor order as Rohan starts hitting them. If you do a video with Kate and Kobe comparing the books tot he films, I'd be curious if they agreed with me, or what it was I've got wrong.
It's great to have a proper professional analysis. Tolkien was an army officer, so knew what he was writing about. Of course, it's a movie, so spectacle trumps realism, but it's still good to get knowledgeable commentary. One point not mentioned was that, in the battle of Minas Tirith, the city is surrounded by open plain. It should have had farms and fields in which the humans could have put obstacles to delay the orcs in range of their catapults.
An interesting point about the films. I wonder if you might consider the books as well? There were more to the 'plans' of the fighters than the movie portrayed. Cheers 🇬🇧
The battle of Hobbiton was interesting, as well as the ambush of the oliphant column. Also, the ent assault of Isengard had some elements, like the dam breach, that were used to overcome and reduce the defense. And a question: is an ent an armor unit, or heavy infantry?
Killing the enemy does not win battles breaking his morale does 6 Bows do indirect fire Strategy, Operations of the Rohan campaign Helms Deep conrols Sarumans communication line Sarumans forces failed toprotect their back from reinforcements and their morale broke in the end
For anyone interested in the accuracy of the movies and books I highly recommend Brett Devereaux's blog (A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry). He is a professor of ancient military history and has a series on Helm's Deep and one on The Siege on Minas Tirith. Both and entertaining and informative. He has many series critiquing pop culture such as GOT, Total War, and Assassin's creed, among others.
The Ride of the Rohirrim looks very strange when you realize that all the riders have their shields hanging off their saddles during a cavalry charge, especially against archers. I didn't like that they ended the Battle of Pelennor Fields via Ghostbusters in the movie. The Army of the Dead did their duty vanquishing the Corsairs and it was an army of men that is supposed to emerge from those ships. It's as bad as the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep to save the humans. This sort of thing diminished the theme of the coming Age of Men, by removing their agency in these battles.
Yeah the unfortunate extra of the ghost army taking the place of the men of Gondor coming off the ships, is that Gondor also ends up looking like a tiny weak city state rather than an actual kingdom with armies.
@@KarlJeager the movies did so much to diminish the role of Man the fighting. The war vs Saruman and Sauron was about men standing on their own, due to the other races being diminished or disinterested.
I can see why the Rohirrim didn't do any preparation, they keep banging on about how they have no time. But the Uruks have all the time in the world, and they did zero preparation! They could've sat back out of range and shot the crap out of the rohirrim at their leasure. they have ballistas and crossbows, which outrange regular bows. Guess that's why you don't send your army into battle when they were born like... two months ago?
De l'audace, encore de l'audace, et toujours de l'audace! Surprised the following was not mentioned: You do NOT charge cavalry into pike walls (unless you want to lose half your horses); You do NOT charge cavalry into massed infantry (remember how effective infantry squares were in Napoleonic wars?); You do not charge cavalry directly at heavy armored units (or artillery) facing you (remember the charge of the light brigade?); Trebuchets are siege weapons, not defensive weapons. On the plus side, the Ride of the Rohirrim will go down as possibly the greatest cavalry charge in cinematic history, rivaling the charge of the British heavy cavalry in Waterloo, and the charge of the Australians at the Battle of Beersheba in The Lighthorsemen.
This was cool, I thought these were a couple of Tolkien nerds like me and laughed and thought it was a joke, but never judge a book by its cover. Something I didn't hear here was a different angle from the 'westpoint' one. Namely, while Tolkien creates the notion that his cities armies are structured along roman and later southern european lines, he was well versed in nordic literature and vikings had battle plans very similar to first nations. In first nations battles,. from movies we get the idea that there is a 'chief' and like western (and eastern) armies, they simply tell everybody what to do. In most first nation and viking (and tribal, lets face it) 'armies', 'chaos' is VERY intentional AS a battle plan. Braves in first nations tribes do not follow orders, in fact during battles are largely left to develop their own plans, which are fairly organizationally fluid because of course these are extended families which spend most of their time together with largely the same experiences. So the 'leadership' factor in tribal warfare isn't nearly so important as what we have learned in the west, where BlackAdder makes fun of Wellington with that famous joke "don't you think you should have a more developed battle plan than shouting", and Wellington replies "NOOOO". And essentially Gondor and more especially Rohan are essentially just large tribes. So the idea of an organizational plan is difficult to assess because we don't get much information on the actual makeup of the armies. Denethor, sorry, Theoden says at Helms Deep that he 'isn't much use in a siege', likely because they've never BEEN in one. The movies are very different because there is way less in the books, and frankly I gave up on the movies after the first one. As others have said, love your site.
It was an interesting idea but it would have been better to have a real ancient/medieval warfare expert critique the battle scenes rather than comparing essentially medieval warfare with a modern understanding.
I think perhaps your military analysts are a bit _too_ up-to-date and should re-examine the Hundred Years War and the Burgundian Wars for examples of what happens when cavalry try to assault massed pikemen without being in a tank. There's something to be said for the direct influence of Eru Iluvatar, certainly, but it does usually take more than 1 horsepower to make those sorts of forays into a bunch of massive guys in plate armour without being forced to a stop and turned quickly into mince.
I love the LOTR trilogy, but do have problems with some of the battles, like why the fortresses had such poor fortifications just simple ditches would have made it very difficult for the orches to push their seige weapons up against the walls. I also was surprised when riding into battle the riders of Rohan didn't deploy their shields instead charging with spears deployed long before needed. I just watched "The Return of the King" last night I was wrong about them not riding with one hand controlling their horses reigns, but it made no sense deploying spears instead of shields when in orch arrow range. The shields would have been a much better choice until actually engaged in battle. In the areal warfare against the flying Ringwraiths why didn't they build the heavy crossbows like the Romans and Chinese used 2000 years ago, they had the ability to build weapons like that but didn't but did have the more complicated trebuchet's?
Infantry would form tight formations called infantry boxes and hold pikes outwards to defend against cavalry charges. Horses are intelligent animals and if you tried to run through an infantry box with sharp pikes sticking out it would just rear up and toss the rider. Pistols were originally cavalry weapons because they could be fired one handed. Cavalry would either ride around infantry boxes or come up short, fire an arrow or a quick pistol shot before moving sideways.
The riders of Rohan were being pelted with arrows. They had no firearms but did have perfectly good shields hanging on their horses, which would have been much more useful than their lances until at close range. Charging into a mass of long pikes doesn't seem like a good idea for either horse or rider. Archers on horseback would have been the best attack strategy until at least a good number of pike holding orc's were eliminated. This is Hollywood though so suspension of disbelief is the actual battle strategy.
OK, so I'm going to try to apply these principles to the War of Wrath in The Silmarillion. 😉 Both sides are very prepared--the Valar are literally the most powerful beings in Arda (who haven't drained their power by corrupting the earth, unlike Morgoth), and they're accompanied by a massive force of Maiar and Eldar. Morgoth has metric trucktons of orcs, Balrogs, and for the ace up his sleeve, winged dragons. But the Valar clearly have the element of surprise as Morgoth thought he had sundered them from Middle-earth forever. Only by unleashing the dragons did he stand a chance (albeit just briefly). In this sense, the Valar also had audacity--coming over the sea despite supposedly shunning Middle-earth and the exiled Elves. No one had more audacity than Erendil though, first to sail to the West to summon the Valar in the first place, then flying in at the last moment and slaying Ancalogon the Black to turn the tide of battle. Oh, and you want a breach? Ancalagon's dead carcass fell from the sky and destroyed Morgoth's mountaintop lair. Now that's a breach! (I'm sure Jess's sister and brother-in-law can do much better at this than I, though. 😝)
As anyone who read LotR knows, it was the Rohirrim who fought the Uruk-hai. Therefor, taking the move scene this seriously is foolish bc it disrespects Tolkien's experience in WWI. Even if this scene was supposed to be at Helm's Deep, Aragorn is but one of many. Also, in the book, the Uruk-hai were not the only warriors Saurman employed in the battle.
"They're killing infants!" "It's fiiiine." Yeah that's the US Army alright. Very interesting video but your family really ought to reconsider being willing agents of imperialism.
Tolkien was a willing agent of imperialism as a pre-1914 cavalry volunteer. If you think you're cleverly scoring cheap shots to lure watching Tolkien fans towards your anti-Americanism, it's too late, they're already Anglophiles.
Grond’s mouth was on fire as a nod to Carcaroth’s mouth burning while attempting to swallow a silmaril
is this in one of Professor Tolkien's letters?
LOVED THIS! Story wise I think it was actually really important that Minas Tirith battle was strategically inferior to Helm’s Deep because they had no real leader - the chaos and sloppiness was on point and they really were relying on the next big miracle to get them through. Love how you guys brought that out!
I appreciate the philosophy of Oxford professor Roel Konijnendijk: Where’s the ditch? Dig a ditch. Finished with the ditch? Dig another one.
Actually, in Roman warfare the building of the fortifications, as mentioned in the “Plan to integrate obstacles” was a huge part. For instance, the battle of Dyrrhachium, where there was a race between the two sides for who could encircle the opponent with a longer wall.
Loved this video, thanks for doing it!
When Aragorn went to the top of the steps, the Uruk-hai were no-longer able to surround him with their superior number, they had to line up and climb to him one by one single file while he waited (battle of Stirling bridge was similar). Great Video as usual.
He gave 'em the ol' Hot Gates, Thermopylea'ing all over those jokers.
Reinforces why Helm's Deep is my favourite of the movie battles - love the desperate last stand feel to the battle and I think they do a great job with the mood. Fun video!
These books would've been a lot shorter if Frodo had had a main battle tank.
I can handle tactical inaccuracies for the sake of the filmic experience, but what gets at me every time I watch lotr is that whenever archers are involved in battle scenes they are given the order “Fire”, which is senseless to a pre-gunpowder scenario.
All of the effort spent on the detail of every sword and button yet no-one looked at the script and thought about wether “Shoot” or “Loose” might have been better?
Really enjoyed your video though, brilliant idea for a critique.
I feel the same way with a lot of pre-firearm movies.
I do give LotR a pass though, just because the idea in the books is that the events are being translated from their common speech to ours. So "fire" isn't what they're actually saying, but it's how we understand it.
I think even today "Fire" is not commonly used as a command. "Shoot" is more common, in order to avoid confusion.
Not to mention the catapult scene when they shout "fire", which to an artillery crew would mean a piece of siege equipment was *on fire*
I don't mind "fire" as much as I mind archers holding their bows drawn for aaaages, especially at Helm's Deep.
Audacity for the win. I’d love to see a breakdown of the Battle of the 5 Armies in the Hobbit book, and to know if there are any real-life battles that are comparable.
There certainly are especially during the 1700s and 1600s, when increased globalization made warfare increasingly world-wide. One thing that comes to mind is the Battle of Blenheim, during the War of the Spanish Succession. In it, 52,000 British, Scottish, Austrian, Dutch, and Prussian soldiers fought against 56,000 French and Bavarians. There was also the Battle of the Nations, also known as the Battle of Leipzig, during the War of the Sixth Coalition, in which Austria, Russia, Sweden, Saxony, and Prussia defeated Napoleon’s France, along with Poland, Italy, Baden, and Saxony. There are more examples of this, but I can’t think of any now.
would love to see a breakdown of the battles in the Hobbit trilogy, especially the Battle of the 5 Armies
Bring those two back for other movie battles, loved it.
Struck by how similar you and your sister talk. Made me look back and see if my sister I do the same and that is true. Loved the content. Hope to see your sister and brother in law again.
Do this again. Totally loved everything about this one.
As an ex-USAF medic 903x0 then shred out to Orthopedic clinic tech, Army Reserve Supply Sergeant, then civilian Intel guy now retired - I found the attempt to explain the battles per current doctrine very interesting.
The tech in the movie is very dark age medium/heavy horse supported by heavy infantry transitioning to medieval (where Heavy Cavalry would dominate in our world) and the absence of aerial support (Giant Eagles air superiority mission against flying reptile air to mud support at the gates of Mordor truly made my blue heart flutter with excitement) overall a factor that could have changed the outcomes at several points.
The Olipphaunts were awesome but the lack of supporting arms let them be attrited by desperate tactics.
This was greatly enjoyed by me.
Shared with others.
Gracias,
Glenn “Zorro” Wilson
I wonder ... were the uruk-hai emerging from the mud pits in the Two Towers newborn baby monster warriors; or were they veteran loyal goblin warriors getting a Captain America style upgrade thanks to Sarumans knowledge of the devices of Sauron (+ magic and stuff). It would explain how these brutes were "born" already knowing how to speak and having names, and knowing what a menu is. So they weren't toddlers after all ... maybe?
This was really fantastic. I turned 58 years old today but this took me immediately back to 30 years ago when I was an almost 30 year old officer in the US Air Force. I have to send this to a few of my friends who will definitely get a kick out of it. Well done, as usual.
I liked the comparison between Cinematic warfare and Modern warfare.
All three had interesting things to say, as a student of War, I was Impressed.
Though you have dealt with the major battles, all that remains are the Skirmishes.
I would like to hear your opinions on the fight at Balin's Tomb, small unit Tactics.
Sorry for being late to the discussion as only discovered Jess a few months ago
I think the majority point missed here is: military tactics and strategy are all very well and do okay into the story. At the end though, Tolkien wasn't writing strategy and tactics,the was writing a story. The story would have been less satisfying if he had, for example, given time for the defenders to deploy obstacles at Helm's Deep. So we have to keep in mind the arc of the story
Orc doctrine: Run at the other guy and poke him with a pointy stick.
In unofficial official military terminology, Legolas sliding down the stairs on a shield is called a quack bang. It's something so unexpected that the enemy stops for a split second to go "WTF," and disrupts the flow of the battle. Thank Fat Electrician for that term.
Or more scientifically, it's called an Ooda loop.
Thanks for this one! I just discovered your UA-cam channel, and I'm enjoying jumping around among the videos you've accumulated.
I really like this one. I've been a Tolkien lover since I first read The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings as a teenager back in the 1970s. I've re-read the books enough times to be on my fourth or fifth set. Beyond that, I've seen the Peter Jackson films several times. He did a magnificent job, although I have some gripes about changes and omissions.
I'm also a retired Marine officer and have been studying military tactics, operational art, strategy, and grand strategy for fifty years, starting - again - in my teen years playing Avalon Hill and SPI war games with several friends. I've read and reviewed hundreds of books on all aspects of warfare for Goodreads. I started in the infantry, migrated into telecommunications and computers, and spent ten months in a formal school studying command and control systems. I also completed the coursework, by correspondence, for Amphibious Warfare School and the Command and Staff College, and I served as a company commander in the Fleet Marine Force.
I also got quite a bit of experience studying both psychology and systems theory, analyzing problems and resources, and designing and implementing problem-solving systems in my post-military career as a psychotherapist and then as a public health program manager.
So I have some background in common with both your brother in law and your sister.
I would call the fight with the orcs in which Boromir died a meeting engagement. The Fellowship knew the orcs were hunting them, and the orcs knew in general terms where they were, but not precisely, so the two groups were both ready for a fight when they collided. The orcs had the initial initiative but it quickly broke down into a tactical brawl without effective overall direction on either side.
The Fellowship were superior in their individual close range weapons, skills, and coordination; each side had one longer range weapon and operator, someone with a bow on each side. Legolas never really got to make full use of the range of his bow because he was having to fight at such close range - call it the equivalent of an artillery piece having to fire beehive rounds to keep from being overrun.
The orc with the bow was able to use it as a standoff weapon to nullify the skill and better short range armament of Boromir. However, he succumbed to target fixation and enabled Aragorn to close to short range, too close for him to have a chance to use his bow (even if it hadn't been knocked out of his hands.)
The outcome was also mixed.
On the one hand, the Fellowship partially achieved their objective of getting Frodo to the point in his mission where he headed into Mordor - he meant to go alone, which would have been a disaster, but although it was good that Sam went with him, it would probably have been bad if the whole group had gone, because it would have been nearly impossible for a group that size to avoid detection and attack.
On the other hand, the orcs also partially achieved their aims. They hit the Fellowship hard and reduced its effective strength by almost two thirds. Their capture of Merry and Pippin and the diversion of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli to pursue them took the initiative, the control of the tempo, away from the Fellowship.
The orcs took a lot more casualties, but with their approach to combat, that wasn't so important - their style was more human wave (orc wave) attacks anyway, and they came in such numbers that it demonstrated their command structure was comfortable with heavy losses and prepared for them. They had a lot of orcs, but the Fellowship only had a handful of combatants, and only the men, the elf, and the dwarf were better fighters than the orcs. The hobbits were courageous but would have been very quickly overwhelmed on their own.
After that skirmish, it was only the intercession by the Rohirrim, something neither the orcs nor the remnant of the Fellowship could have anticipated, that prevented the orcs making it to Isengard with the two hobbits. Had that happened, Saruman would have learned about Frodo heading into Mordor to destroy the Ring and passed that on to Sauron. So the fact that this didn't end up as a catastrophe was more luck than anything else. Of course, luck often plays a big part in warfare.
Helm's Deep: what your brother-in-law called Engagement Area preparation, the Marine Corps would call Intel Prep of the Battlefield. Same thing - choosing your defensive ground, preparing your physical defenses and positioning your troops, analyzing avenues of approach and how you will cover them with combined arms. I'd add that if you had time, you'd set up obstacles to channel the enemy into kill zones to stall their momentum and get maximum effect from your weapons systems. I agree that the defenders failed to set up any kind of obstacles - on the one hand, the orc army was so big it probably wouldn't have made much difference, if any - but they should have tried. Also, it was a catastrophic mistake to overlook the weak point in their defensive system that culvert created. Even without the explosives, the orcs could have gotten through that grate much more easily than the rest of the defenses. That should never have been left so vulnerable, and it should have been covered with ranged weapons well ahead of time.
As your sister and brother-in-law pointed out, the defenders didn't really have any indirect fire weapons, and that's baffling for a fortress that they'd been preparing for a long time. They should have had quite a few catapults. I started as a mortarman, so that jumped out at me.
I wondered why the defenders waited as long as they did to open fire - that first bowman was clearly in range for an effective shot, so they should all have been firing at that point. Having ranged weapons does you no good if you don't exploit their range.
I also wondered about all the soldiers on top of the wall choosing to be armed with long spears, not the most effective weapon for a very short range melee. They'd have been more effective if they'd all had swords and/or axes.
Minas Tirith: Where were the eagles that showed up to fight the Nazgul in the last battle? They could really have used them at Minas Tirith.
For that matter - why didn't they just have eagles fly Frodo and a couple of people for backup directly to Mount Doom from Rivendell? Of course, that would have made for a lot shorter story.
We really need a throughout analysis of jumping the phalanx in the battle of the five armies
Your brother in law reminds me of Russell from Up all grown up... something about the hat, collared shirt, and the memorization made me think he'd have all the patches...
Lovely guests, thank you for your service to our country! Honestly, I never thought the fighting in LOTR was realistic at all, but you have changed my mind. I would love y'all's thoughts on he barrel fight in The Hobbit.
You and your sister have almost identical voices. It’s awesome.
Hell the rain would help keep fire assaults at bay. I mean the defenders were holding their own and even winning, until the attackers sent that suicide-bomber troll in to blow out the wall.
Awesome! Incisive commentary. And, who would've thought Jess' big sister was Army?
USA Veteran a scene not in the movie, death of Sauramon. In the books Treebeard let's the Wizard go. Fellowship runs into the wizard and Wormtounge enroute to Riverdale. Battle of the shire was omitted from the movies, yet a near perfect hobbit ambush on the ruffians. Character development of Froto who does not want to bear arms, and offers Sauramon pitty, like Gandolf. Veterans feel similar weary from battle the return home to relax but find in Thier absence evil has taken over.
So Orcs aren't evil? They're actually Chaotic Audacious. Check!
I really like the visceral nature of the battle scenes, especially Helm's Deep. It's over-the-top high fantasy, for sure, but when they're mowing thru the horde on horseback, or even on foot, and bodies are flying left and right, and it has a very solid feel to it, it just works cinematically. And Tolkien's fight scenes are really about the dramatic rather than the militarily accurate. Great video! (I really like your dress too btw.)
Aragorn also had other advantages in a fight. He was a bit of a throwback to the old race of Man in Tolkien's mythology making him stronger, faster, and tougher than a man like Boromir. Aragorn wasn't fully what the ancient Men were, some of them were almost equivalent to the Elves in physical prowess but he was close enough to negate the Uruk-Hai physical advantages, I'd guess. Also, in the book at least, Aragorn was huge.
An historical note on the first part of this video. Do you remember Cyrano de Bergerac? He was a real person. And he did take on a hundred or more opponents --- and won. We don't have any details on how it happened only that it did.
They need to return to analyze _The Hobbit,_ _Game of Thrones_ and _Vikings_ battle scenes
In reality, medieval sieges took a long time, sieges on various keeps, castles and/or fortresses could litteraly take up to several months, the main objective of a siege is to force the defenders into submission by for example to starve them into a surrenders, if the ones laying the siege could commit a siege without risking lives in battle, they would, the army is there to take over the fortress, not to smash it. But that's just how it were.
The capture of Merry and Pippin was not a "mission success" as they did not actually capture their HVTs (Hight Value Targets)
Great video
Thanks for your service as well as your insights
Such an awesome channel. I really thought this video was interesting.
2:25 *_Hive mind? Absolute Nothing unison about the Orcs Assault, it is a free for all assault, main objective is whoever wins, gets the hunting trophy_* .
*_From a realistic standpoint it is completely plot armour, because let's say generously the Hero stands 6ft at 200lbs a well above average weight and height for era_* .
*_Uruk Hai orcs stand on average 6'6" 330lbs of muscle an bone [with variation of course]_* .
*_realistic scenario the hero would have surrendered rather than fight a horde, if the horde followed the rules of war, for bargaining for high ranking prisoners_* .
*_If not, then the hero would have been dismantled like a wounded fox unsuccessfully fleeing from a Wolf pack_* .
What I always say is, Why in the world would the keep not have a drawbridge over a chasm to get to the gate?
This was really cool. Maybe battles from the Hobbit and Rings of Power. Or other movies too. I would definitely watch.
I had some slightly different thoughts based on years of playing Total War and reading up on ancient and medieval warfare. The point about Helm's Deep is that it takes away the numbers advantage because there is a limited area that the attackers can approach from, so it is a very good place to have a fight using that kind of weapon. It's one of my pet peeves with Peter Jackson's adaptation is that he doesn't understand the details of that era of warfare - he has Gandalf etc try to portray that retreating to Helm's Deep as a bad decision, but the flow in the book is very different.
Firstly, being mostly cavalry, Rohan wants to meet the enemy on somewhat of an open field but they know they are already outnumbered. There is a small force under the control of a character called Erkenbrand who is trying to stop Saruman's forces at the Fords of the Isen, and this matches perfectly with what Kobe was saying about Engagement Area Development. The Uruk-Hai (and Dunlendings) can only cross in limited numbers which takes away the fact that they have a greater number of troops, and it's impossible to cross the river in a way that lets you set yourself up for defence. As each group of soldiers reach the opposite bank, a cavalry charge would quickly deplete their number, so they couldn't establish a anchor point that would let them set to stop cavalry and allow the rest of the army to join up with them. Theoden's army marches out to reinforce Erkenbrand because despite having the territorial advantage, they were only a small force so any losses were critical. In the book, they meet someone fleeing from the fords and pivot to Helm's Deep as it's their best defensible position, even if it's not ideal for an army that is heavy on cavalry, while Gandalf rides off to see what he can do about the remainder of Erkenbrand's forces. It's desperate, but similar to the battle at Thermopylae, if you can use features like the terrain to protect your flanks, you can limit the number of enemies that can approach and the direction of their attacks. I wish the script had kept to this version - it doesn't make Theoden look like an idiot who doesn't know how to use his army!
A flaw in both Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields in the films is that in both times the orcs are given a chance to set themselves in something close to a phalanx formation and charging those with cavalry was almost certain to fail. The first riders in the wedge would die upon the massed spears, and the ones behind would do little better. You had to attack a phalanx from the sides or the rear. In the books, there isn't a dramatic pause before the charge, the charges happen and their into the back of armies that hadn't had time to prepare, partly helped in the Pelennor Fields by the existance of a wall that the army of Mordor had knocked holes in to, and hadn't realised that the Rohirrim could filter through and set themselves up for the charge, so this helps to justify why they are in such poor order as Rohan starts hitting them.
If you do a video with Kate and Kobe comparing the books tot he films, I'd be curious if they agreed with me, or what it was I've got wrong.
I’d love to see an analysis on the barrel scene from The Hobbit 😂🙌🏻
It's great to have a proper professional analysis. Tolkien was an army officer, so knew what he was writing about. Of course, it's a movie, so spectacle trumps realism, but it's still good to get knowledgeable commentary. One point not mentioned was that, in the battle of Minas Tirith, the city is surrounded by open plain. It should have had farms and fields in which the humans could have put obstacles to delay the orcs in range of their catapults.
Denethor was busy
An interesting point about the films.
I wonder if you might consider the books as well? There were more to the 'plans' of the fighters than the movie portrayed.
Cheers 🇬🇧
The battle of Hobbiton was interesting, as well as the ambush of the oliphant column. Also, the ent assault of Isengard had some elements, like the dam breach, that were used to overcome and reduce the defense.
And a question: is an ent an armor unit, or heavy infantry?
I would say heavy infantry. They don't have the mobility to be armor.
Killing the enemy does not win battles breaking his morale does
6 Bows do indirect fire
Strategy, Operations of the Rohan campaign
Helms Deep conrols Sarumans communication line
Sarumans forces failed toprotect their back from reinforcements and their morale broke in the end
For anyone interested in the accuracy of the movies and books I highly recommend Brett Devereaux's blog (A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry). He is a professor of ancient military history and has a series on Helm's Deep and one on The Siege on Minas Tirith. Both and entertaining and informative. He has many series critiquing pop culture such as GOT, Total War, and Assassin's creed, among others.
Great video
If they were Denethor, what would Godor do to prepare for Nazgul attacks?
The Ride of the Rohirrim looks very strange when you realize that all the riders have their shields hanging off their saddles during a cavalry charge, especially against archers. I didn't like that they ended the Battle of Pelennor Fields via Ghostbusters in the movie. The Army of the Dead did their duty vanquishing the Corsairs and it was an army of men that is supposed to emerge from those ships. It's as bad as the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep to save the humans. This sort of thing diminished the theme of the coming Age of Men, by removing their agency in these battles.
Yeah the unfortunate extra of the ghost army taking the place of the men of Gondor coming off the ships, is that Gondor also ends up looking like a tiny weak city state rather than an actual kingdom with armies.
@@KarlJeager the movies did so much to diminish the role of Man the fighting. The war vs Saruman and Sauron was about men standing on their own, due to the other races being diminished or disinterested.
Another one i dont think i ever saw
You should havr them back for the battles in the Hobbit Trilogy...
Nothing beats Balls Deep
I can see why the Rohirrim didn't do any preparation, they keep banging on about how they have no time. But the Uruks have all the time in the world, and they did zero preparation! They could've sat back out of range and shot the crap out of the rohirrim at their leasure. they have ballistas and crossbows, which outrange regular bows. Guess that's why you don't send your army into battle when they were born like... two months ago?
De l'audace, encore de l'audace, et toujours de l'audace!
Surprised the following was not mentioned:
You do NOT charge cavalry into pike walls (unless you want to lose half your horses);
You do NOT charge cavalry into massed infantry (remember how effective infantry squares were in Napoleonic wars?);
You do not charge cavalry directly at heavy armored units (or artillery) facing you (remember the charge of the light brigade?);
Trebuchets are siege weapons, not defensive weapons.
On the plus side, the Ride of the Rohirrim will go down as possibly the greatest cavalry charge in cinematic history, rivaling the charge of the British heavy cavalry in Waterloo, and the charge of the Australians at the Battle of Beersheba in The Lighthorsemen.
This was cool, I thought these were a couple of Tolkien nerds like me and laughed and thought it was a joke, but never judge a book by its cover. Something I didn't hear here was a different angle from the 'westpoint' one. Namely, while Tolkien creates the notion that his cities armies are structured along roman and later southern european lines, he was well versed in nordic literature and vikings had battle plans very similar to first nations. In first nations battles,. from movies we get the idea that there is a 'chief' and like western (and eastern) armies, they simply tell everybody what to do. In most first nation and viking (and tribal, lets face it) 'armies', 'chaos' is VERY intentional AS a battle plan. Braves in first nations tribes do not follow orders, in fact during battles are largely left to develop their own plans, which are fairly organizationally fluid because of course these are extended families which spend most of their time together with largely the same experiences.
So the 'leadership' factor in tribal warfare isn't nearly so important as what we have learned in the west, where BlackAdder makes fun of Wellington with that famous joke "don't you think you should have a more developed battle plan than shouting", and Wellington replies "NOOOO". And essentially Gondor and more especially Rohan are essentially just large tribes. So the idea of an organizational plan is difficult to assess because we don't get much information on the actual makeup of the armies. Denethor, sorry, Theoden says at Helms Deep that he 'isn't much use in a siege', likely because they've never BEEN in one. The movies are very different because there is way less in the books, and frankly I gave up on the movies after the first one. As others have said, love your site.
I never lost a battle. Never won one either.
The redhead is very attractive
Very interesting
It was an interesting idea but it would have been better to have a real ancient/medieval warfare expert critique the battle scenes rather than comparing essentially medieval warfare with a modern understanding.
I think perhaps your military analysts are a bit _too_ up-to-date and should re-examine the Hundred Years War and the Burgundian Wars for examples of what happens when cavalry try to assault massed pikemen without being in a tank. There's something to be said for the direct influence of Eru Iluvatar, certainly, but it does usually take more than 1 horsepower to make those sorts of forays into a bunch of massive guys in plate armour without being forced to a stop and turned quickly into mince.
I love the LOTR trilogy, but do have problems with some of the battles, like why the fortresses had such poor fortifications just simple ditches would have made it very difficult for the orches to push their seige weapons up against the walls. I also was surprised when riding into battle the riders of Rohan didn't deploy their shields instead charging with spears deployed long before needed. I just watched "The Return of the King" last night I was wrong about them not riding with one hand controlling their horses reigns, but it made no sense deploying spears instead of shields when in orch arrow range. The shields would have been a much better choice until actually engaged in battle. In the areal warfare against the flying Ringwraiths why didn't they build the heavy crossbows like the Romans and Chinese used 2000 years ago, they had the ability to build weapons like that but didn't but did have the more complicated trebuchet's?
Infantry would form tight formations called infantry boxes and hold pikes outwards to defend against cavalry charges. Horses are intelligent animals and if you tried to run through an infantry box with sharp pikes sticking out it would just rear up and toss the rider. Pistols were originally cavalry weapons because they could be fired one handed. Cavalry would either ride around infantry boxes or come up short, fire an arrow or a quick pistol shot before moving sideways.
The riders of Rohan were being pelted with arrows. They had no firearms but did have perfectly good shields hanging on their horses, which would have been much more useful than their lances until at close range. Charging into a mass of long pikes doesn't seem like a good idea for either horse or rider. Archers on horseback would have been the best attack strategy until at least a good number of pike holding orc's were eliminated. This is Hollywood though so suspension of disbelief is the actual battle strategy.
Ok. The indoctrination is strong with this one. These are not droids you are looking for
OK, so I'm going to try to apply these principles to the War of Wrath in The Silmarillion. 😉
Both sides are very prepared--the Valar are literally the most powerful beings in Arda (who haven't drained their power by corrupting the earth, unlike Morgoth), and they're accompanied by a massive force of Maiar and Eldar. Morgoth has metric trucktons of orcs, Balrogs, and for the ace up his sleeve, winged dragons.
But the Valar clearly have the element of surprise as Morgoth thought he had sundered them from Middle-earth forever. Only by unleashing the dragons did he stand a chance (albeit just briefly). In this sense, the Valar also had audacity--coming over the sea despite supposedly shunning Middle-earth and the exiled Elves. No one had more audacity than Erendil though, first to sail to the West to summon the Valar in the first place, then flying in at the last moment and slaying Ancalogon the Black to turn the tide of battle.
Oh, and you want a breach? Ancalagon's dead carcass fell from the sky and destroyed Morgoth's mountaintop lair. Now that's a breach!
(I'm sure Jess's sister and brother-in-law can do much better at this than I, though. 😝)
As anyone who read LotR knows, it was the Rohirrim who fought the Uruk-hai. Therefor, taking the move scene this seriously is foolish bc it disrespects Tolkien's experience in WWI. Even if this scene was supposed to be at Helm's Deep, Aragorn is but one of many. Also, in the book, the Uruk-hai were not the only warriors Saurman employed in the battle.
"They're killing infants!" "It's fiiiine."
Yeah that's the US Army alright. Very interesting video but your family really ought to reconsider being willing agents of imperialism.
Orc lover.
Tolkien was a willing agent of imperialism as a pre-1914 cavalry volunteer. If you think you're cleverly scoring cheap shots to lure watching Tolkien fans towards your anti-Americanism, it's too late, they're already Anglophiles.
what bollocks ...... no disrespect but pffft...