Religion can be such an emotionally charged topic to discuss and I have come to really appreciate your epistemological integrity. I think you're doing a great job. One of the best talking heads I subscribe to.
Everything is emotion, humanity is emotion; the truth is emotion, the lie is emotion; facts are emotions, the science = the knowledge is emotion, religion is emotion, life is emotion! Hence, everything is emotion! Just to refer to religion as emotion is simply a lie! Humanity is a war!
Human beings should gravitate towards unbiased points of view then we can develop into the extra terrestrials we so desperately want to visit our planet.
Edward Said writes in his book 'Culture and Imperialism': "No one is purely one thing. Labels like Indian, or woman, or Muslim, or American are not more than starting-points, which if followed into actual experience for only a moment are quickly left behind. Imperialism consolidated the mixture of cultures and identities on a global scale. But its worst and most paradoxical gift was to allow people to believe that they were only, mainly, exclusively, white, or Black, or Western, or Oriental. Yet just as human beings make their own history, they also make their cultures and ethnic identities. No one can deny the persisting continuities of long traditions, sustained habitations, national languages, and cultural geographies, but there seems no reason except fear and prejudice to keep insisting on their separation and distinctiveness, as if that was all human life was about. Survival in fact is about the connections between things; in Eliot’s phrase, reality cannot be deprived of the “other echoes [that] inhabit the garden.” It is more rewarding - and more difficult - to think concretely and sympathetically, contrapuntally, about others than only about “us.” But this also means not trying to rule others, not trying to classify them or put them in hierarchies, above all, not constantly reiterating how “our” culture or country is number one (or not number one, for that matter)"
@@harryjervis7434 Based on the above extract. I might be white, you might be black, I might be Christian, you might be Muslim, I might make $100,000 per year, you might make $500 per year, but we both love trains. And so we are both train fans, and our differences do not differentiate us on that fact. But also, if you think of your self as a train loving Muslim, you do not become not Muslim. Colonialism treated the differences as reasons to exclude, not as a reason to improve the whole.
@@LetsTalkReligion Hope you are doing well. Could you do A reserch and make a video on authenticity of Islamic Hadith books in both Sunni and Shia reaching. Thanks
@@littlecousin5630 Thanks brother, I don’t know if they’re hating or questioning but either way I think it’s because of the media showing Saudi Arabia as this horrible place
The resistance from instituional western indologist against such similar criticism wrt Indian subcontinent studies doesn't paint a great picture wrt accommodating the feedback.
Interestingly Europeans and Americans who study Brazil are still called "Brazilianists" in the media and that's generally viewed positively here (at least outside of academia). We generally found it flattering that foreigners would have such an interest and study our culture - specially given something the problematic inferiority complex we seem to have (we usually call this our "mongrel dog syndrome"). I can't help but compare with this and wonder if we just didn't do our own post colonialist critique of academic studies of Brazilian culture.
@@lipidsled Sometimes. Unfortunately many of the current attacks on 'Western' scholarship of Indian religion come from Hindu nationalists who wish to advance their own political agendas by massively distorting Indian history and suppressing legitimate scholarly inquiry. 'Insiders' are not always correct. EVERYone has biases. So this is all a difficult dance that requires patience and honest exchange of ideas.
A Muslim from the middle-east here. I am sure many have written this already. But you do indeed do a great job with all of your videos. keep them coming :)
@Abdul Bin Mohammed PBUH SAW would you please stop writing with codes and single words. Write a normal sentence like a normal person, or stop bothering me.
This was really informative I've heard about Edward said work and his pro palastaine campaign but didn't know it had this much of an impact, great vid.
@@CthonicSoulChicken eh, the impact of Said can’t really be understated, he may be “overrated” (what’s that even mean academically?) but he was majorly influential in social sciences
@@seanbeadles7421 Howard Zim was influential in his sphere, but he was an ahistorical gas-bag. "Overrated" means exactly what it is--particularly within academia. Someone offers an opinion and it happens to be socially and/or politically favorable and it is given more weight and credence than it deserves. To that end, academia itself is "overrated."
I don’t get that criticism of Said either because people ignore how stigmatized his work and really he was in his field during the release of orientalism. I do think a fair criticism is that for a topic as broad as orientalism he focuses only on SWANA (admittedly doing a great job at his analysis), while ignoring South and South East Asia. However, he is Palestinian at a time when the idea of admitting a Palestinian people exist was taboo.
The terms "Orient" and "Occident", generally used in place of "the East" and "the West", actually come from astronomy. The orient is the part of the horizon where the sun first appears in the morning, in the eastern sky, and the occident is the part of the horizon where the sun last appears in the evening, in the western sky. It also had implications in a relgious context by denoting the Western Catholic church from the Eastern Orthodox church, which is why Russia was included as being a part of the Orient. In fact, when the trend of romanticism in music came to Russia in the mid to late 1800's, composers, such as Modest Mussorgsky and Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, took great pride in this distinction. Its odd today to think of their music as being "Oriental", but they strove to distance themselves from "Occidental" music, as it was, and would probably be a little upset to find out their music is often included in the Western classical music canon, since they were interested in creating something distinctly "Russian". An opposite trend also took place in Western romantic music known as "Orientalism" which attempted to simulate sounds from the various diverse regions of the East within the context of the Western musical system (and ranges from hilariously stereotypical to genuinely sincere). This video is a good example of "Orientalism" in Western music. ua-cam.com/video/l_YS3NcvF_4/v-deo.html Great video!
Mussorgsky and Rimsky Korsakov (as well as other members of the so-called "Russian Five") wanted to write music from an non-westernized Russian framework. It was also the general trend of mid-19th century Russian scholarship, which rejected western European cultural ideas in favor of Slavophilia.
thank you so much for addressing biases at the beginning of the video. it's a pet peeve of mine whenever I hear people say they're unbiased. it's better to just address your biases instead of suppressing them.
As far as i see it, it should still be the aim to reduce bias as much as possible while acknowledging that unbiasedness is not achievable. This of course is only possible by first trying to understand ones biases.
The problem is that that easily descends into ad hominem attacks based on a person as opposed to their arguments. Ideas should be evaluated on their individual merits, not on who said them. Yes, arguments could be biased, but if they're untrue, then that should be sufficient grounds to deny them. If you're constantly having to list every possible bias you have, then people won't see your arguments as anything worth considering.
I don't know if people understand what bias is. Your race creates bias. Your gender creates bias. Your sexuality creates bias. Your life experiences as a person in a society is a bias. Ideas and opinions do not come out of thin air. They come from people and every person has biases.
@@emilyonizuka4698 There actually is very little evidence to support that conclusion, though it's taken as gospel almost everywhere. Plus, it's possible to have bias and still conjure completely objective logical arguments.
Another great video man, good job! As a guy from the Middle East I would like to say that you are certainly the best content maker I have seen in the context of explaining Middle Eastern ideologies&belief systems. As an insider with a keen interest in such themes I find you to have good understanding of what you are talking about. Keep up the good work.
Just like you said, I think it's really important to have people from the cultures or religions one is studying to have a voice in the matter because they are the real protagonists and having their perspectives is what will truly bring knowledge, which is the goal of a scholar. Great, great video!
I'm from Egypt, born and raised here in Cairo, I found your channel to best source for learning about the topics you present, I'm learning about the middle east culture from the channel more than I have learned while living in the region. I say you are doing very good work in exploring these topics.
This reminds me of the process by which ethnologists wanting to see local Egyptian dances resorted to hiring sex workers and their gyrations laid the foundations for the concept of belly dancing in the west which would later spread back to the middle east. The stereotypical Egyptian riff comes from a song written by an American about a woman becoming a sexualized belly dancer in Cairo. Also the process by which the west got obsessed with the concept of eastern mysticism leading into trends like pop understandings of Asian religion, the new age movement, and the spread of ahistorical practices like yoga becoming an industry. Basically becoming another arm of the 19th century obsession with any and all supernatural woo .
I'm honestly surprised that people accused you of Orientalism, I've always found your content to be of the post colonial tradition, with a focus on the Islamic world but clearly you have covered numerous other subjects (such as Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc..). Keep up the good work man! Any plans to cover any interesting Jewish subjects soon?
I deeply appreciate this particularly clarifying discussion at this particular moment, but more, I am lifted by your introduction to Edward Said. I've been reading his work since 1984. Many people I know find his writing elegant but his topics baffling. Your channel in all respects is a light in darkness and a light in the fog. Thank you.
Unfabling the East: The Enlightenment's Encounter with Asia by Jürgen Osterhammel is a great follow up to Said's work especially when it comes to non Arab outlooks. I can also recommend The Islamic Enlightenment: The Modern Struggle Between Faith and Reason by Christopher de Bellaigue and Lost Enlightenment: Central Asia's Golden Age from the Arab Conquest to Tamerlane by S. Frederick Starr, Kevin Stillwell, et al
In 16.Century Germans and other European states quoted hungary and serbia as Orient because this Lands we're Part of the ottoman Empire, nobody today would say hungary is Orient.
@@benavraham4397 In french everything eastern is oriental; there are a school that teach all oriental languages ranging from mandarin chinese to russian and arabic
"(...) nobody today would say hungary is Orient." But Germans will always remain 'huns' if they don't align with Western interest - as proven in the writings of VOLTAIRE, calling Frederick the Great a 'champion of enlightenment' and a 'tartar', depending on his shifting alliances...
Excellent video. Thanks Philip. I personally enjoy your videos and I appreciate your professionalism in handling sensitive topic like religion. Keep it up.
I think you're doing a fabulous job, and your channel is my new favorite channel on YT. Thank you for approaching these sensitive topics with courage and care!
Always have thought you’ve done a good job at maintaining a scholarly and objective study of all the subjects you cover. Great vid & keep up the good work
your channel is absolutely my favorite , and without exaggerating, you're one of the smartest persons i've came across on youtube , you jump from one idea to another so fluently , in the past centuries a lot of orientalist painters lived in algiers and across all nord africa , i can tell that their work is masterpiece,that's certainly a positive thing,i am inspired by their work personally , the interior architecture , the art of islamic gardens and how they immortalized the ancient design, clothes... , we lost a lot of our cultural heritage and by looking to their paintings , all the details are back again , since i'm old fashioned , this actually helps me design parts of my home, i'd like to mention too, that a few of them converted to islam across algeria , so i dont know if that had an impact on their vision of the orient, in case the conversion had an impact on their identity, maybe the most famous isabelle eberhardt , keep up you're doing a great work , you certainly understand the MENA region more than a lot of its inhabitants themself
It is ashame people get their info from “Muslim tiktok”/online wahhabist sheikh than this man. He knows more about Islam (with the exception of his Alawite video which imo no one besides alawites can make an accurate video on alawites) than actual Muslims.
Thank you for the explanation. It is true that these scholars were from an era where colonialism was looked upon as a right rather than an evil thing. Our orientalist culture was looked upon as a research object to justify the supremacy of a certain race. We were like the animals that they also researched on.
For anyone looking for a good text criticizing Said's position, check out For Lust Of Knowing: The Orientalists And Their Enemies by Robert Irwin. Obviously, you should also read Said since it's a criticism of his position, and I would say neither writer is entirely right. But their positions are both worth considering.
I love your channel. You are doing a fantastic job. You present the subjects very well, clearly, and above all, fairly. I have, and am, learning a vast valuable amount from you. You have enriched my knowledge, therefore my life deeply. Since discovering your channel my outlook has broadened, understanding deepened, and so my life has much improved, and is definitely the better for it. Especially musically. Thank you kindly.
I appreciate this video: To make the argument that humans of European descent cannot study other cultures or have any value makes as much sense as saying those who are not of European descent cannot study or have value to others not in there ethnic groups, such literature as "Oreintinalism".
false equivalency, you have more power to influence the world and how they look at other cultures than other ethnicities who study your culture do. The western canon is widely accepted as "the truth" of course you can study whatever you want but you need to keep that in mind and be sensitive to it.
I love your videos ans this community. It really lets us all take a step back and see the things behind certain mindsets and worldviews of today. And also historical events.
wow, this is incredibly well said. I think anyone who is interested in cultures and lifestyles other than their own (ie. hopefully most people??) should be familiar with these ideas. always think about who's voices are missing, you know?
I think you do a great job! You bring subjects that few know about and bring them to colorful life. I have a feeling that there is some inborn bariar between northern European outlook and Mediterranean outlook that is very hard to penetrate going either way. Nevertheless, it's definitely worthwhile to dimish this bariar, and you are doing a good job of it.
Let's take a culture with which I as an half-Arab and half-German have nothing to do: India. I find it fascinating. I can recognize the horrible caste system but I don't find myself responsible to change the Indian society. I respect the souvereignity of India. (And it is not my duty to bomb other continents untill they do things correctly.
i think the orientalist act wouldn't necessarily be taking tangible actions to end the caste system (not colonialism, but one might have real pragmatic solidarity with dalits, shudra etc), but viewing the caste system as sui generis, unchanging, and motivated entirely by malevolent causes instead of at least in part an organic creation of legitimate historically rooted concerns.
Really? Is genital mutilation done in Africa ok? It's part of their culture so we shouldn't try to change it, right? We should just respect the sovereignity of Somalia.
@@gonzalo9514 And who decides that something is not ok? The west? Why should the rest of the world care what the west has to say about something not partaining to it? Economic sanctions? Well, might makes right until you're on the looser side. So be careful with that.
personally I think all cultures, including western culture should actively pursue the critique and appreciation of strangers. Orientalists generally didn't bomb anyone or anything, they hung out and enjoyed these cultures, albeit with a skewed perspective. The people that bomb and bully want to keep their cultures, and want others, under foot, to keep to their own.. far away!
@@gonzalo9514 No, genitale mutilation on, especially on girls is disgusting, horrible, a nightmare. There are people who travel there to educate uneducated people. What else do you want to do? The problem is if you have the attitude that your culture is more developed or superior and that is what the West does, has done, is still doing.
As a Saudi and muslim living in the "west" colonialist orientalsim is still alive and well. The enlightened west is still trying to dominate us socially and economically. This channel is great though. You do a great job in the way you depict the islamicate world. As a sidenote i personally like orientalist art although I'm well aware of how inaccurate it is
Not really, our societies have changed drastically from the Imperial era, our institutions tend to be more dominated by postmodernist thought. You literally have Salafi masjids all over the West, I would say we are probably too accommodating
@@ryanbowler6212 oh the average folk is more lost than accommodating,, it's not about accommodating or not it's about realising what is what without generalising like a sheep,, why they may accommodate and sometimes may have opinions like yours "too accommodating" because deep down they know there's something good but possibly there's something bad too,, so what's going to break the cycle of confusion and clarify your vision? learning things for what they are and not following the lazy generalising ways of thinking and attacking people with ignorance left and right that doesn't breed nothing but toxic energy..
Another cool one dude. Read Said when I studied Literary Theory & Cultural History at Uni in the late 80's early 90's, as part of a post-colonial studies unit called 'The Empire Writes Back', named after a book of the same name, containing essays by people from newly independent nations saying how it was from their perspective. It opened my eyes to concepts like hegemony.
I am an ethnic Assyrian and my frustration with Edward Said is that he erased the religious and ethnic minorities of the Middle East view the problem from an Arab perspective.
That isn’t really fair to accuse him of around the 70s him calling himself Palestinian and claiming it as an ethnicity was still controversial to western wars. As well don’t you think if he talked about Assyrians he would be accused of speaking over them. You also say religious minorities implying Christians but not all SWANA Christians experience the same thing an Assyrians will not experience the same as a Lebanese Christian or the same as a Palestinian Christian. As well people bring up religious minorities ignoring the people of the same religion don’t automatically get grouped in and treated the same you see this with Shias of all branches in places like Lebanon, Bahrain, Iraq, and Yemen and differing branches of CatholicIsm in SWANA against orthodox christians (you can see this in Lebanon).
Intersting point. I dont think Edward Said erased the identities of minorities. He is simply pointing out to the dangers of allowing a culture/group (believing to be superior) to assume identities for other groups and biasly box them. Let me give you an example of that danger. If you are truly Assyrian, your name wouldn't be Kevin Wahl (a very German last name). What makes you assume a name of that superior culture rather than a pseudo name of your own beautiful language? Equally so, if you are truly Assyrian, who has suffered from inadequate and horrible treatments as a result of the tyranny of the pan arabism, what convinced you to blame Arabs (who have also horrendously suffered from pan arabism)? rather than focusing the responsibility on the murderous regimes; The blame of the Arabs and the muslims to your folks' mistreaemt is an orientalist rhetoric repated by Western media to imply the savagery of "the other", their lack of tolerance and evoke the sense of assurance of their well evolved background and the better civilized religion. In simple Enhlish, the problem of your own point view is the orientlist machine at work. Capech. PS I'm also of christian background from the middle east
I suspect he was inclined from delving into the reality of minorities in the Middle East because he generally romanticized the Ottoman Empire as a scene of organic harmony before imperialist others began intruding on it.
I am always suspicious of people who feel the need to label others and thereby “box the in“. I for one, really appreciate the knowledge you share, and I have a high degree of confidence that you work very hard to organize a balanced perspective.
I do not think of you Filip as an orientalist as you described its meaning (not that I knew this word before). I do know that I have finally found in you a place where i can learn all these things without fearing some agenda to be pushed. Even as a Muslim, I have preferred to learn Islamic history and philosophy from your videos than from any other source I used prior, including Muslim scholars themselves. And it is for the specific reason that your videos give detailed and unbiased information on topics that I find Muslim scholars to be always biased about (in one direction or another). Thanks for that. I did learn from this video that I myself have been guilty of the very behavior that you warn against, dichotomizing humanity as western vs eastern, two grand opposing mindsets. Though perhaps it’s important to note (sadly) that this contemporary, postcolonial world of ours actually HAS that dichotomy built into it, now by both sides and exacerbated by globalization etc. eg. If an Arab and a Vietnamese find themselves in a café surrounded otherwise by white folks, there’s GONNA be a mild sense of nodding at each other in familiarity. How weird is that now that I’ve watched this video.. Actually I’d say that it’s probably BECAUSE of colonialism and orientalism (the bad kind) that this dichotomy exists, and it was probably never intrinsic to the nature of humans in general. And that feels good to know as a takeaway for myself. Thank you for that too! Our prophet once said Seek knowledge from whence it may come, even from China (or from Sweden) and I really appreciate you man. Don’t worry about what the internet says just Do you bro!
I do want to say that ruling groups tried to justify their superiority through ideologies. Kings over peasants, european elites (especially west europeans) on african slaves in the US before emancipation, muslim rulers over the conquered populations, etc. It is a way to naturalize otherwise historic hierarchies to prevent loss of power and assuage any guilt for enforcing domination upon people with equal dignity.
You're an amazing educator. I myself ascribe to Salafi Islam and I really enjoy listening to your explanations while creating Art. Thank you very much.
Good episode Philip, I am horrified but not surprised that you (of all people) have been accused of orientalism, however I note in the comments section plenty of people of many faiths and nationalities who like me really appreciate your work, unfortunately I feel that in getting lost in the labyrinth of Identity politics, many are losing their actual identity to a lot of shallow ideology of categorising, which is exactly the mistake of the orientalists.
I think he does decent work however the video I think he should have never made was on alawites because his sources probably (because those are the only widely available sources on alawites) came from orientalist perspectives. These sources also had articles saying alawites only know called themselves Shias (even though they are the first Syrian Muslims) and just try to peddle anti-Iran conspiracies. As well no one really has access to alawites beliefs outside of alawites (a lot of them especially in Egypt hide that they are Alawite so that should clue you in) I think with that being said the sources he used making that video were orientalist, I do not think he is.
Breh, I showed your video on Advaita vedanta to my mum, who showed it to her Advaita priest and he loved it. I've always felt like your work was very post-colonial and respectful
Great video. I remember being greatly impressed by Saids book when I read it in my mid-twenties. But when I tried to re-read it two decades later I found it almost unbearably wordy and pretentious. I mean, I still think he makes a very good point, it’s just a tough read. I probably should confess that I am by now embarrasingly fond of a lot of the art and literature that Said critizised, very rightly critizised I should say. But still…
I've always felt like Said's critiques were aimed at a very specific, niche community of scholars that held relevance for a brief period of time and place. It's like writing a book about the problem with economics as a whole, when you really have a problem with a small subsection of economic thought. The problem is that the cheerleaders of his works (and Said himself once he got famous from the book) willingly opened the door for this critique to proliferate, and allowed it to pervade Academia in a way that I don't think is necessarily healthy.
People calling you an orientalist are just there to throw smart words around and have fun with cancel culture. The respectful and sensitive way in which you present your content is remarkable.
Great channel and a great episode. After listening to Bildningspoddens episode about Orientalism that came out three weeks ago I can’t deny seeing the similarities, both in structure and information between your episode and theirs. Did you listen to it and if so did it influence you and your approach to this episode?
As someone currently living in ME, I don't think your work is Orientalist at all. I learnt a lot about the culture and the region by watching your videos. Keep up the good work. متشکرم.
The fact that you learn about your region from this secondary source instead of your primary sources says a lot about your cultural subjugation. Unable to learn from his own tradition, always dependant on a foreign intermediary. Whether you think this intermediary is Orientalist or not, it doesn't matter.
@@moroccandeepweb5880 lol, buddy i read alot of primary sources and know my history well, but im not stupid or arrogant enough to think that you can never learn anything from someone just because they speak english and have a white skin.
@@dondovahkiin7899 Well, if that's the case, I am sorry. Certainly, there is a lot to learn from Westerners, especially in terms of methodology, but not at the expense of our heritage. More power to you. سلام از مراكش.
This was a great video, As far as I know, Your takes are usually purely academic, I don't consider you to be holding some sort of agenda against the orient in general.
When I read Said's book, I was struck by the fact that it was concerned almost exclusively with the Middle East, and to a lesser extent the broader Muslim world. India and the Far East are barely mentioned. Yet, when the term "Orientalist" began to appear in the 19th Century, it referred primarily to people who studied China, Japan and Korea, places which were vaguely called "The Orient." The scholars who studied that area were fascinated primarily by its art, its languages, and most of all, by its philosophy, which many found very appealing (and many considered superior to and more advanced than Christianity). The scholars who considered themselves "Orientalists" were saturated in the classics of Greek and Roman literature, not with the Bible or Christian doctrine. An educated Englishman was expected to be familiar with the Analects of Confucius, just as he was supposed to know his Plato and Aeschylus. American scholars have a 150-year-long love affair with China, and in the 1920-40s this spilled over into popular culture with the fantastically popular novels of Pearl Buck and Lin Yutang. Even today, if you ask a scholar in Canada or the U.S. where "the Orient" is, they will not think of the Middle East at all. China and Japan are "the Orient". The British presence in India generated a scholarship which was much more tinged with colonialist prejudice. It more or less ignored the domestic culture of India and focused primarily on the complex religious literature of Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism, attracting people who delighted in mysticism and mystery. European mystics like Madame Blavatsky produced synchretic doctrines, and for generations various gurus found admiring followers in Europe and America. When the respected and internationally popular Bengali author Rabindranath Tagore visited Toronto, Canada, he was mobbed by the largest crowd of admirers who had ever assembled in that city for anyone...and his books could be found on the mantlepieces of many ordinary Canadian homes and farm houses (along with the godlike Robbie Burns and Walter Scott). Gradually, the word "Orientalist" came to include the study of every society in Eurasia that was not in the Christian realm of Western Europe, and even Russia (which remained "Oriental" in the minds of people in France, Germany or Britain). But the Middle East was never its main focus. But to Said, "the Orient" only meant the Islamic world, and his narrative of European arrogance turns on the fact that Christianity and Islam have been rival monotheistic and expansionist religions adjacent to each other for thirteen centuries. Within that framework, much of what he says makes sense. The hostility and arrogance is definitely there, even among the very small number of scholars who admired Islam (much as the European scholars of the Middle Ages admired and imitated the Muslim scientists and theologians while remaining hostile to the rival faith). Nor does he notice that most of prejudicial images of the Middle East are no different from the prejudicial images that Protestant scholars attributed to Catholic societies. Said's analysis flounders anywhere east of the Indus, where the images of the Orient held by Europeans and North Americans seldom follow his preconceptions. Nobody was reading Confucius or Mencius under the impression that they were either primitive or salacious, or represented an "other" that had to be conquered and schooled.
Hegel's views of Chinese philosophy are heavily orientalist, and it's not until more recently that Confucius and Mencius have been taken seriously in the West, at least since Liebniz. Moreover there's a fetishized orientalism as much as there is a dismissive orientalism, so even positive portrayals of "the east" can be orientalist insofar as the portrayals are articulated knowingly or unknowingly to fit the agenda of the author (say, spiritualists trying to say the "east" was "more spiritual" which commits erasure on all forms of non-western rationalism)
@@sankarchaya Both Liebniz and Hegel are far earlier than the period I was addressing (the late Victorian and Edwardian eras, when the academic profession of "Orientalist" appeared and universities began to have departments of "Oriental Studies"). My point was that while Said's thesis rings true enough where the Middle East is concerned, it is less convincing in other regions of study. Said focuses almost exclusively on this one region, ignoring everything else --- a pretty good example of a thesis shaped "unknowingly to fit the agenda of the author". Don't get me wrong: Said's work was very important, and he was a fine scholar, but it had some limitations. I agree that many people who consider everything "eastern" to be more "spiritual" are being basically silly ----- there is just as much mysticism in European intellectual history as anywhere else. The entire world is stuffed with mysticism. But most of the serious European scholars of the Far East in the period I refer to were not attracted to its philosophy because they thought it was mystical ---- far from it. They were attracted to it because it seemed to them more rational. They certainly didn't "erase" anything, considering that most of them collaborated with Asian scholars who had exactly the same opinion. Said built up a case in which he looked only at his local experience ---- the background of a centuries-long rivalry between Christianity and Islam --- and expanded it into a generalized cartoon. In short, he invented a kind of "Occidentalism" that strongly resembled the "Orientalism" that he felt he was exposing. Much of what he wrote depended on putting a sinister caste on what amounts to a psychological platitude: everyone's notions of other people who are far away tend to be vague, overgeneralized and prone to error, and are often dismissive or downright contemptuous. One need only talk to a Canadian from Alberta for ten minutes to discover that they have some pretty weird notions of life in Ontario, Quebec, or Newfoundland. And the Newfoundlander or Quebecois has equally strange notions of Alberta. And that is all taking place in one country! In the 19th century, English opinions of the Irish bore a strong resemblance to their opinions of Asians, and often prominent intellectuals used the same arguments and images to diminish and dismiss the Irish as they used with Italian peasants, tribes in the Amazon, or Indian coolies. In the early Meiji Restoration period in Japan, many Japanese scholars and students were eager to study Europe and America, and made great efforts to do so. In the process, they formed some quite peculiar ideas about Europe and America (and these opinions were firmly anchored in an unflinching sense of their own superiority). Said pointed out many things that were worth pointing out, but his work has some weaknesses and inconsistencies. He was, like he himself would no doubt agree, a product of his personal experiences, his time, and his location. As for Hegel, I have never found anything in Hegel that wasn't an incoherent stew of prejudice and mystical rubbish, so it hardly surprises me that his opinions about any culture or region were stupid.
@@philpaine3068 i disagree with you about Hegel, he was a brilliant philosopher even if hard to understand. And one good thing we get from Hegel is a positive understanding of how critique builds intellectual self-awareness that is necessary for grasping towards the truth. but even if he wasn't brilliant he was hugely influential in continental European thought as was his misunderstanding of East Asian thinking. Even aside from his influence he was hardly alone in blatantly reducing East Asian thinking to simplistic tropes, even among those scholars who should have known better. So even if Said's thesis does not apply to academic study of India or China quite as well as the Middle East, I think it still largely applies. Certainly, one can look at British views of Hinduism. Even the idea of Hinduism as such is in some respects an orientalist conception (ironically originating from Muslim understandings). There is not really one religion of Hinduism the way we might say there is a single Catholic church, and the concept serves a way of outsiders to conceive of the interrelated variety of Indian religious traditions that hold some sort of vedic orthodoxy. I think arguably the example of the Irish proves the point actually, as the British certainly had stereotyped and one-sided understandings of the Irish stemming from a top-down administrative viewpoint. They certainly saw the Irish as an "other". I don't think Said's thesis is inconsistent with the idea that Western scholars did this to other, even Western groups too, or that we even may see similar phenomenon within Western states. Certainly one can criticize Western academic tropes like the "noble savage" native Americans on similar lines. But also simplistic narratives about Appalachian whites, African Americans, and various other groups abound. If anything it should only follow from Said's critique of orientalism that other studies potentially suffer the same prejudicial pitfalls. And one could say the same for East Asian views of the West, such as Japanese prejudice about Europeans. If Said's analysis holds about European scholars it SHOULD hold about Japanese scholar's views of Europe, since it's not really a moral failing so much as an epistemic one that emerges out of otherness. Also if I recall a lot of the examples from Said's thinking were francophone as well as anglophone. Orientalism as a study of Middle Eastern cultures as well as just East Asian cultures stems in part from French expansion into the Middle East, especially with Napoleon or the conquest of North Africa, as well as later French and British conquest of Turkish colonies in Africa and the Middle East in the 19th century. So there certainly was an Arab "orient" as well as an east asian "orient" and this is reflected in the academic study of orientalism, even if it is not reflected in lay terminology like "the oriental" referring to East Asia. Also as the video points out Said wasn't saying all orientalist scholarship was necessarily bad or never engaged with East Asian thinking, just that it was not self-aware in how it related to the "other" and this leads to important scholarly oversights and oversimplifications. There are some particularly awful cases, but not all cases need to be particularly awful to be worthy of critique. Certainly, our understanding of, say, Buddhism, Confucianism and Hinduism are richer today thanks to the critique of 19th century research into these traditions, even if some or even much of that older research still had valuable insights. Critique isn't about shitting on everything that came before us, but by constantly developing and revising our theoretical insights to improve our scholarly tradition. Just to be clear its certainly worth critiquing Said as well of course. I don't mean to say otherwise.
as an aside i was initially surprised when i read his work that it did not discuss east asia or india more, but at the same time I also already thought of the studies in a lot of those societies as problematic too
@@sankarchaya They are indeed, but usually in different ways. My only objection to Said's work was that he was a bit tone-deaf to the differences and crammed everything into a preconceived narrative, based on the historical rivalry between Christianity and Islam, which are both "Abrahamic" religions with much the same attitudes about faith, belief, and unbelief. There is no similar grand historical rivalry between Christianity and Buddhism, Daoism, or Confucian philosophy, so the points of contention are different. India was colonized for a long period, with the British usurping the dominant political and social position that Mughal aristocracy had held (so much so that it largely governed India using the Mughal's Persian system of administration). This was very different from both the situation in the Middle East and the situation in the Far East. Let's face it ---- human beings, even with the best of intentions, are not very good at conceptually handling whatever they experience as foreign or exotic, so you can expect cartoon images and half-assed notions to dominate every utterance... including those of brilliant scholars. I live in a country where my far northern First Nations heritage and experience evokes no end of silly generalizations from perfectly intelligent people in Toronto. Enough to make me groan when I hear them. Grow up hunting moose and paddling a canoe every day and you won't always be on the same wavelength as someone who commutes to an office by subway and eats mostly sushi and pizza.
Agreed. The west is still filled with misleading information on the Middle East, and especially Islam. I've taken the time to read the Qur'an and was shocked to see the similarities when it comes to their laws, practices, prophets and so on. As well, as the many differences which makes it interesting to read and study further. Even convincing my mother they worshipped the same God, after she argued with me about it. Lol
They aren't the same God. The fundamental difference is the belief that Jesus was a living son of God, died and was resurrected. This is absolutely nothing like what is in the Quran. You are leading your mother astray with a hobbyist's view of islam. The Quran is only a piece. Read the hadiths and the sunnah as well--without them, reading the Quran is pointless. The hadiths provide the framework for how one is to interpret the Quran. They are essential and are the basis for hardline, orthodox islam as seen in groups like ISIS.
As some who was also educated to be critical of orientalism, I am very sure that you do not falling orientalist scholarship. It's clear to by the specificity of your work, and careful attention to counterfactuals and contextualisation. Your videos when discussing sufism I think really highlight this attention, helping break some of my preconceptions about sufism. Keep up the excellent work.
@@LuiKang043 not really. West and central asia were the “og asians” meanwhile East asia was referred to as orientals and southeast Asians weren’t even considered Asians.
I’ve never understood the “logic” of traveling to a foreign country/continent, realizing those people have their own cultural identity, then deciding it must be fixed at once.
Because relativism is toxic. China has a "cultural identity" and it includes concentration camps. It also matters even more if they want trade with you and you want trade with them.
As if these world police countries like America, England, and France did not prop up Al-Qaeda, Wahhabism, or even try to replace SWANA Christianity with western evangelicalism (best example is in Egypt).
@@vannakinder352 first off France is Catholic, so pretending that they tried to replace anything with Evangelicalism is not very intelligent, and secondly, the main people propping up Wahhabism is Saudi Arabia, and third, that propping up by the Saudis'is what led to Al-Qaeda and ISIS
why are you saying again and again that these scholars did not mean to do it but unconsciously did it? No, that ain't the case. I come from a region where when we protested against the Colonizer, The English in course case, we, especially my community, were literally vilified and labelled as "fanatics", "uncultured", and"intolent". We were systematically excluded for hundreds of years. Only those who subscribed to the English ideas and supported them saw any kind of socio-economic mobility. English authors wrote evil things about us, and so many people accepted it; the knowledge produced by the English is still used by other communities to dominate and marginalise us.
You do a great job! - keep doing it ! - don’t let the turkeys get you down….you can only ever be the best version of you - for those off us that appreciate what you do please don’t let somebody else’s critical & uninformed comments stop you.-Blessings on you and your work.
Excellent video! As a "Westerner" from the USA I've always been fascinated with Orientalism especially as an art genre of the 19th and 20th centuries, Jean Leon Gerome being my favorite. Total eye candy and a way to present to a Western audience (which had a growing interest in all things "Oriental" feuled by the archaeological work in Egypt) the exotic (landscapes, daily life etc) and titillating (harem scenes, etc...which of course was exaggerated and tailored for the Western male). Burton's translation of the 1001 Nights was made palatable yet for a Western audience yet retaining a certain amount "naughtiness" to garner interest (aka $$$). Hussain Haddaway's 1990 translation is much more readable and explicit...
Sadiq Jalal al-'Azm's - Orientalism and Orientalism in Reverse is the most interesting reply to Said and the phenomenon of Orientalism I have come across. He points out alot of contradictions in Said's work and deconstructs the artificial mirror between East and West further.
I'm commenting mainly so you'll get more recommended. Your videos make a great background for when I'm painting though - plus even though you're probably not a native in english (neither am I), your pronounciation, accent, speed and intonation make listening to you a very pleasant experience. Hope you'll keep on doing videos as such; even if I'm not fully focused on listening, I still learn a lot because of you.
I've been asking myself : if orientalists portray the "East" as different, how can you tackle it without lacking cultural relativism, or better said without falling into some kind of universalist mindset ? In French sinology there has been a similar debate between JF Jullien and F Billeter and it has left me puzzled. If any of you guys has a thought on the subject, I'd be happy to hear it.
@@94josema Well, I'd be happy to, though I do not know if the books I read on the subject are currently available in an English translation. If not, and if you happen to speak French or German and are willing to give it a try, you should be able to find any of Jean François Billeter's books. Billeter is a Swiss sinologist mostly known for having greatly improved the understanding of the Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu in Wade) in Europe. I recommend reading “Lessons on the Zhuangzi” and “Studies on the Zhuangzi”, in which his explains in depth his methodology concerning the interpretation and translation of ancient chinese texts. He also wrote a more polemical essay entitled “Against François Jullien”, in which he directly and very openly criticizes François Jullien works, accusing him of portraying a mystified and fantasist vision of China. Most of François Jullien’s works on the other hand are available in English. I didn’t read any of his works, so I can’t give any reference in particular. You should know though that he wrote an answer to Billeter’s polemical essay, but I can’t find a translation in English for this one. Both of them are brilliant scholars, so I guess the truth must be somewhere in the middle. Billeter gave an interesting interview in which he sums up the debate, which is available on youtube with English subtitles : ua-cam.com/video/cthAXVJuu_Y/v-deo.html
@@maximebaron254 I'm not a native english speaker, I'm spanish and I can grasp some french if I pay attention or find help with a translator. I already read F. Jullien's The Silent Transformations in spanish and I would like to read Billeter books too, but they are mostly untranslated. If you want to refer to me any other resource in french that would be very helpful too.
The term orient as a reference to the east dates back to maps before the discovery of magnetic north when maps "oriented" the map so that east was facing up.
Orientalism comes from the Latin or Etruscan word: Orient, which means the East. It is simple definition. It relates to Latin cultural countries, including England and English speaking countries, France and Germany and their perspective only.
@@FernandoMendoza-dw8nz Latin meaning Western European culture/civilization as shaped by the lagacy of the Western Roman Empire, Latin (Catholic/Protestant) Christianity, the Renaissance etc. The primary distinctions (in terms of civilizations) would be the West vs the Byzantine/Orthodox Christianity and West vs. the Muslim (Arab/Ottoman/Persian) world. In the 16th-19th centuries Europeans also acquired a certain understanding of civilizations influenced primarily by the cultures of India and China. The Muslim world, India, and China later got to be included in the one big umbrella term of Orient, even long before the Europeans were able to colonize or heavily influence the economies and politics of Asia and North Africa.
@@luciano3270 I know, it's crazy. In the 17th century Poland-Lithuania and Muscovy had their own Oriental neighbour country located on their southern borders - the Crimean Khanate, a land of strange people following strange customs, speaking a strange language, and practicing a surprisingly similar religion (much more similar than we tend to realize today). Border regions are always difficult to categorize. There are no clear borders, only transition zones. Btw, what's it like living in a post-Ottoman, post-communist, liberal democracy?
I very much enjoyed your presentation. As a corrective to Edward Said's book, I would recommend Robert Irwin's 'For Lust of Knowing'. Ironically, Said himself apparently had little respect for Islamic culture, with all its intellectual and social complexity. Perhaps the pursuit of 'post-colonial' studies is itself a recent outgrowth of some very Western, modernist ideas about cultural relativity. But that's another intellectual rabbit hole, of course...
I am a little shocked and a little sad to hear that you have been accused of being an Orientalist. Only a little though. Why, you might ask? The answer to that is more saddening in my perspective than the accusation itself. It seems to me that in our modern times, especially of late, there has been a very huge push in what I will call "segregationist" thinking. What was once thought of as an appalling viewpoint, and rightly so, has become a celebrated virtue. Everyone wants to divide. Everyone wants to live apart. And based on that you, as a European, stand guilty of being a racist simply because you study and speak about something that is not of European origin. No judge, no jury....your place of origin is all the evidence needed. A truly disgusting and backward way of thinking if I've ever seen one. I'm a Muslim from Iraq, not a scholar by any account, but well read I'd like to think. I find the things you speak of fascinating, intellectually stimulating, and more importantly, nuanced and balanced. I've never heard you say anything at all that might come across in any way as based in colonialist thinking. Your videos in fact are quite enlightening on many subjects. The depth of your knowledge is obvious and you are a very credible source of information, at least in my humble opinion. I am sure that those who make this accusation against you see it quite differently. I have a theory as to why. In my life I've met and associated with many people who I believe now would also accuse you of this. Luckily, those relationships have been severed long ago. But what I can see that holds true for nearly all of these types of people are that they are intelligent, angry, and unable to think critically without their thoughts being overrun by emotions. Because of this, they look for simple answers like white man=bad man. They are unable to see beyond this, truly. It comforts them to have easy answers to rather difficult questions. It makes them feel that they have made some kind of personal progress to conquering their demons. They have made none in reality, they are simply succumbing to the same kind of thought as the Orientalists themselves seem to have, except in reverse. It feels good to point fingers and put yourself in the place of superiority. This is what they do. Unfortunately for the world, and I truly mean the entire world, this type of thinking is being encouraged and applauded. Keep doing the good work that you do and don't give in to them. They are a deluded mess, looking for answers in the wrong place and finding none, hence they lash out and make accusations. I would argue that they themselves have become the new racists.
I'm of no religion from the US and I very much like your take and view. I think human is the only race see and that it's not better then the rest of the animal Kingdom we are apart of. We all live on this rock. Glad you're on it with me
Religion can be such an emotionally charged topic to discuss and I have come to really appreciate your epistemological integrity. I think you're doing a great job. One of the best talking heads I subscribe to.
Everything is emotion, humanity is emotion; the truth is emotion, the lie is emotion; facts are emotions, the science = the knowledge is emotion, religion is emotion, life is emotion! Hence, everything is emotion! Just to refer to religion as emotion is simply a lie! Humanity is a war!
@@samantarmaxammadsaciid5156 Wtf are you talking about.
Ditto
Human beings should gravitate towards unbiased points of view then we can develop into the extra terrestrials we so desperately want to visit our planet.
Is English your first language? "Talking head" is a derogatory term. Lol
Edward Said writes in his book 'Culture and Imperialism':
"No one is purely one thing. Labels like Indian, or woman, or Muslim, or American are not more than starting-points, which if followed into actual experience for only a moment are quickly left behind. Imperialism consolidated the mixture of cultures and identities on a global scale. But its worst and most paradoxical gift was to allow people to believe that they were only, mainly, exclusively, white, or Black, or Western, or Oriental. Yet just as human beings make their own history, they also make their cultures and ethnic identities. No one can deny the persisting continuities of long traditions, sustained habitations, national languages, and cultural geographies, but there seems no reason except fear and prejudice to keep insisting on their separation and distinctiveness, as if that was all human life was about. Survival in fact is about the connections between things; in Eliot’s phrase, reality cannot be deprived of the “other echoes [that] inhabit the garden.” It is more rewarding - and more difficult - to think concretely and sympathetically, contrapuntally, about others than only about “us.” But this also means not trying to rule others, not trying to classify them or put them in hierarchies, above all, not constantly reiterating how “our” culture or country is number one (or not number one, for that matter)"
@leeroy Kerr Seems perfectly coherent to me. I'd recommend googling when you come across unfamiliar words. What parts confused you?
@@tomisaacson2762 Can you sumarise ES's point? What's his argument?
@@harryjervis7434 Based on the above extract.
I might be white, you might be black, I might be Christian, you might be Muslim, I might make $100,000 per year, you might make $500 per year, but we both love trains. And so we are both train fans, and our differences do not differentiate us on that fact.
But also, if you think of your self as a train loving Muslim, you do not become not Muslim.
Colonialism treated the differences as reasons to exclude, not as a reason to improve the whole.
@@harryjervis7434😂😊
Well-put. I liked T.S.E metaphor.
If you spin an orientalist scholar around enough times, does he or she become "disoriented"?
Rotfl
Stop it
😂
Well, if he spins too fast then he can get an occident.
I am done with you 😂😂😂😂
A most sensitive and honest presentation. Thank you Filip for addressing this difficult subject. We're lucky to have you here.
Thank you :)
Hey S.OU., another great channel! ☄️
@@LetsTalkReligion Hope you are doing well. Could you do A reserch and make a video on authenticity of Islamic Hadith books in both Sunni and Shia reaching. Thanks
Your commitment to objectivity is appreciated. Another great video
I’m from Saudi Arabia and I learned some stuff about my culture from you that I didn’t know before. I Love your channel 🌹
are you forbiden from asking about your practices at home?
@@veronicarodriguez8094 what do you mean by “practices” you mean prayer ?
SAUDI?
@@BAFREMAUXSOORMALLY yes ? Is that a question 😂?
@@littlecousin5630 Thanks brother, I don’t know if they’re hating or questioning but either way I think it’s because of the media showing Saudi Arabia as this horrible place
It's also relevant for Sinologist as well as other scholars of East Asian Studies
Definitely
The resistance from instituional western indologist against such similar criticism wrt Indian subcontinent studies doesn't paint a great picture wrt accommodating the feedback.
Interestingly Europeans and Americans who study Brazil are still called "Brazilianists" in the media and that's generally viewed positively here (at least outside of academia).
We generally found it flattering that foreigners would have such an interest and study our culture - specially given something the problematic inferiority complex we seem to have (we usually call this our "mongrel dog syndrome").
I can't help but compare with this and wonder if we just didn't do our own post colonialist critique of academic studies of Brazilian culture.
@@Kudouandgin start with: Voices of the Past on UA-cam, they give you both sides
@@lipidsled Sometimes. Unfortunately many of the current attacks on 'Western' scholarship of Indian religion come from Hindu nationalists who wish to advance their own political agendas by massively distorting Indian history and suppressing legitimate scholarly inquiry. 'Insiders' are not always correct. EVERYone has biases. So this is all a difficult dance that requires patience and honest exchange of ideas.
A Muslim from the middle-east here. I am sure many have written this already. But you do indeed do a great job with all of your videos. keep them coming :)
Are u now ?😉
@@uniuni8855 what?
Word @Issam
@@ibrahimkhatib6191 I'm sorry what?
@Abdul Bin Mohammed PBUH SAW would you please stop writing with codes and single words. Write a normal sentence like a normal person, or stop bothering me.
I was literally thinking about looking up orientalism yesterday, what synchronicity!
This was really informative I've heard about Edward said work and his pro palastaine campaign but didn't know it had this much of an impact, great vid.
He's overrated. Robert Irwin is far more objective, though his bias does lean towards the west.
@@CthonicSoulChicken eh, the impact of Said can’t really be understated, he may be “overrated” (what’s that even mean academically?) but he was majorly influential in social sciences
@@seanbeadles7421 Howard Zim was influential in his sphere, but he was an ahistorical gas-bag. "Overrated" means exactly what it is--particularly within academia. Someone offers an opinion and it happens to be socially and/or politically favorable and it is given more weight and credence than it deserves. To that end, academia itself is "overrated."
@@CthonicSoulChicken everything is overrated then and if everything is overrated, nothing is overrated. He is anything but overrated
I don’t get that criticism of Said either because people ignore how stigmatized his work and really he was in his field during the release of orientalism. I do think a fair criticism is that for a topic as broad as orientalism he focuses only on SWANA (admittedly doing a great job at his analysis), while ignoring South and South East Asia. However, he is Palestinian at a time when the idea of admitting a Palestinian people exist was taboo.
The terms "Orient" and "Occident", generally used in place of "the East" and "the West", actually come from astronomy. The orient is the part of the horizon where the sun first appears in the morning, in the eastern sky, and the occident is the part of the horizon where the sun last appears in the evening, in the western sky. It also had implications in a relgious context by denoting the Western Catholic church from the Eastern Orthodox church, which is why Russia was included as being a part of the Orient. In fact, when the trend of romanticism in music came to Russia in the mid to late 1800's, composers, such as Modest Mussorgsky and Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, took great pride in this distinction. Its odd today to think of their music as being "Oriental", but they strove to distance themselves from "Occidental" music, as it was, and would probably be a little upset to find out their music is often included in the Western classical music canon, since they were interested in creating something distinctly "Russian". An opposite trend also took place in Western romantic music known as "Orientalism" which attempted to simulate sounds from the various diverse regions of the East within the context of the Western musical system (and ranges from hilariously stereotypical to genuinely sincere).
This video is a good example of "Orientalism" in Western music.
ua-cam.com/video/l_YS3NcvF_4/v-deo.html
Great video!
Mussorgsky and Rimsky Korsakov (as well as other members of the so-called "Russian Five") wanted to write music from an non-westernized Russian framework. It was also the general trend of mid-19th century Russian scholarship, which rejected western European cultural ideas in favor of Slavophilia.
Anyone who says it's not up to them to be the judge on if they are wrong or misguided has my full attention and respect. Thank you for your videos.
thank you so much for addressing biases at the beginning of the video. it's a pet peeve of mine whenever I hear people say they're unbiased. it's better to just address your biases instead of suppressing them.
As far as i see it, it should still be the aim to reduce bias as much as possible while acknowledging that unbiasedness is not achievable. This of course is only possible by first trying to understand ones biases.
The problem is that that easily descends into ad hominem attacks based on a person as opposed to their arguments. Ideas should be evaluated on their individual merits, not on who said them. Yes, arguments could be biased, but if they're untrue, then that should be sufficient grounds to deny them. If you're constantly having to list every possible bias you have, then people won't see your arguments as anything worth considering.
I don't know if people understand what bias is. Your race creates bias. Your gender creates bias. Your sexuality creates bias. Your life experiences as a person in a society is a bias. Ideas and opinions do not come out of thin air. They come from people and every person has biases.
@@emilyonizuka4698 There actually is very little evidence to support that conclusion, though it's taken as gospel almost everywhere. Plus, it's possible to have bias and still conjure completely objective logical arguments.
@@blakejhonshen2710 I don't think you understand what bias is
Channel like this is a real treasure
Another great video man, good job!
As a guy from the Middle East I would like to say that you are certainly the best content maker I have seen in the context of explaining Middle Eastern ideologies&belief systems. As an insider with a keen interest in such themes I find you to have good understanding of what you are talking about. Keep up the good work.
This is an essential video for this channel. It is insightful and I really appreciate it
Just like you said, I think it's really important to have people from the cultures or religions one is studying to have a voice in the matter because they are the real protagonists and having their perspectives is what will truly bring knowledge, which is the goal of a scholar. Great, great video!
I'm from Egypt, born and raised here in Cairo, I found your channel to best source for learning about the topics you present, I'm learning about the middle east culture from the channel more than I have learned while living in the region. I say you are doing very good work in exploring these topics.
This reminds me of the process by which ethnologists wanting to see local Egyptian dances resorted to hiring sex workers and their gyrations laid the foundations for the concept of belly dancing in the west which would later spread back to the middle east. The stereotypical Egyptian riff comes from a song written by an American about a woman becoming a sexualized belly dancer in Cairo.
Also the process by which the west got obsessed with the concept of eastern mysticism leading into trends like pop understandings of Asian religion, the new age movement, and the spread of ahistorical practices like yoga becoming an industry. Basically becoming another arm of the 19th century obsession with any and all supernatural woo .
I'm from Egypt and first time to learn about this history of belly dancing. Thanks!
Can you give a source for that belly dancing history?
What do you mean by yoga being "ahistorical"?
Excellent, thank you!! I’ve learned a lot and enjoy your channel often!
I'm honestly surprised that people accused you of Orientalism, I've always found your content to be of the post colonial tradition, with a focus on the Islamic world but clearly you have covered numerous other subjects (such as Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc..).
Keep up the good work man!
Any plans to cover any interesting Jewish subjects soon?
When did anyone accused him of anything?
Free Palestine 🇵🇸
@@uniuni8855 lol he merely mentioned Judaism in passing and you felt the need to say this? You really let Israel and Jews live in your head rent free
I’m Palestinian but i gotta say, Sam kinda got you on that one LoL
As a muslims, I've always had a interest with Judaism because in concept the religions are very similar, so it would be cool to see judaism vid
I deeply appreciate this particularly clarifying discussion at this particular moment, but more, I am lifted by your introduction to Edward Said. I've been reading his work since 1984. Many people I know find his writing elegant but his topics baffling. Your channel in all respects is a light in darkness and a light in the fog. Thank you.
Unfabling the East: The Enlightenment's Encounter with Asia by Jürgen Osterhammel is a great follow up to Said's work especially when it comes to non Arab outlooks. I can also recommend The Islamic Enlightenment: The Modern Struggle Between Faith and Reason by Christopher de Bellaigue and Lost Enlightenment: Central Asia's Golden Age from the Arab Conquest to Tamerlane by S. Frederick Starr, Kevin Stillwell, et al
Thank you, muah!
Thank you! More on my to read list.
Thank you for the book recommendations friend
Bello
@alisdair butler are you aware of similar books on South Asia?
I just started re-reading this book today after years! So cool to see you post about it a few hours later
In 16.Century Germans and other European states quoted hungary and serbia as Orient because this Lands we're Part of the ottoman Empire, nobody today would say hungary is Orient.
The Hungarian language is oriental.
@@Ggdivhjkjl How is Hungarian oriental? Sounds facinating! I would have thought that Hungarian is central Asian, more like Mongolian in style.
@@benavraham4397 In french everything eastern is oriental; there are a school that teach all oriental languages ranging from mandarin chinese to russian and arabic
"(...) nobody today would say hungary is Orient."
But Germans will always remain 'huns' if they don't align with Western interest - as proven in the writings of VOLTAIRE, calling Frederick the Great a 'champion of enlightenment' and a 'tartar', depending on his shifting alliances...
@@Ggdivhjkjl no
Excellent video. Thanks Philip.
I personally enjoy your videos and I appreciate your professionalism in handling sensitive topic like religion. Keep it up.
Awesome presentation . We need more voices like yours. 🤙🏽
You are teaching the world brother! Thank You! Keep up the hard work!
"By defining who the other is, we are simultaneously defining who we are"...great thought!
I think you're doing a fabulous job, and your channel is my new favorite channel on YT. Thank you for approaching these sensitive topics with courage and care!
Always have thought you’ve done a good job at maintaining a scholarly and objective study of all the subjects you cover. Great vid & keep up the good work
most excellent introduction, an explanation (of logic), and apologetic conclusion which is indicative of all your work!!!!!!!!! Thank you
This is the first time I heard about it.İ think you are doing great
Glad to be able to introduce you to important topics.
Excellent piece of work. Thank you.
your channel is absolutely my favorite , and without exaggerating, you're one of the smartest persons i've came across on youtube , you jump from one idea to another so fluently , in the past centuries a lot of orientalist painters lived in algiers and across all nord africa , i can tell that their work is masterpiece,that's certainly a positive thing,i am inspired by their work personally , the interior architecture , the art of islamic gardens and how they immortalized the ancient design, clothes... , we lost a lot of our cultural heritage and by looking to their paintings , all the details are back again , since i'm old fashioned , this actually helps me design parts of my home, i'd like to mention too, that a few of them converted to islam across algeria , so i dont know if that had an impact on their vision of the orient, in case the conversion had an impact on their identity, maybe the most famous isabelle eberhardt , keep up you're doing a great work , you certainly understand the MENA region more than a lot of its inhabitants themself
It is ashame people get their info from “Muslim tiktok”/online wahhabist sheikh than this man. He knows more about Islam (with the exception of his Alawite video which imo no one besides alawites can make an accurate video on alawites) than actual Muslims.
I find you and your videos to be very helpful, informative and well balanced. Thank you for your work here.
Thank you for the explanation. It is true that these scholars were from an era where colonialism was looked upon as a right rather than an evil thing. Our orientalist culture was looked upon as a research object to justify the supremacy of a certain race. We were like the animals that they also researched on.
Excellent video as always.
For anyone looking for a good text criticizing Said's position, check out For Lust Of Knowing: The Orientalists And Their Enemies by Robert Irwin. Obviously, you should also read Said since it's a criticism of his position, and I would say neither writer is entirely right. But their positions are both worth considering.
Reading Orientalism: Said and the Unsaid by Daniel Varisco is also essential.
@@SouthernGeologist Seems like even ethnologists are not above using puns
I love your channel. You are doing a fantastic job. You present the subjects very well, clearly, and above all, fairly. I have, and am, learning a vast valuable amount from you. You have enriched my knowledge, therefore my life deeply. Since discovering your channel my outlook has broadened, understanding deepened, and so my life has much improved, and is definitely the better for it. Especially musically. Thank you kindly.
I appreciate this video: To make the argument that humans of European descent cannot study other cultures or have any value makes as much sense as saying those who are not of European descent cannot study or have value to others not in there ethnic groups, such literature as "Oreintinalism".
false equivalency, you have more power to influence the world and how they look at other cultures than other ethnicities who study your culture do. The western canon is widely accepted as "the truth"
of course you can study whatever you want but you need to keep that in mind and be sensitive to it.
I love your videos ans this community. It really lets us all take a step back and see the things behind certain mindsets and worldviews of today. And also historical events.
wow, this is incredibly well said. I think anyone who is interested in cultures and lifestyles other than their own (ie. hopefully most people??) should be familiar with these ideas. always think about who's voices are missing, you know?
This was a fabulous way to dip my toes into Orientalism before diving into Said's text. Thanks so much!
I think you do a great job! You bring subjects that few know about and bring them to colorful life. I have a feeling that there is some inborn bariar between northern European outlook and Mediterranean outlook that is very hard to penetrate going either way. Nevertheless, it's definitely worthwhile to dimish this bariar, and you are doing a good job of it.
I like your videos because they are the most objective I've seen. Am middle Eastern
Any plans on talking about Sufi codes of honour in-depth?
Ooooh!
That sounds awesome!
This channel is the bright side of youtube.
Let's take a culture with which I as an half-Arab and half-German have nothing to do:
India. I find it fascinating. I can recognize the horrible caste system but I don't find myself responsible to change the Indian society. I respect the souvereignity of India.
(And it is not my duty to bomb other continents untill they do things correctly.
i think the orientalist act wouldn't necessarily be taking tangible actions to end the caste system (not colonialism, but one might have real pragmatic solidarity with dalits, shudra etc), but viewing the caste system as sui generis, unchanging, and motivated entirely by malevolent causes instead of at least in part an organic creation of legitimate historically rooted concerns.
Really? Is genital mutilation done in Africa ok? It's part of their culture so we shouldn't try to change it, right? We should just respect the sovereignity of Somalia.
@@gonzalo9514 And who decides that something is not ok? The west? Why should the rest of the world care what the west has to say about something not partaining to it? Economic sanctions? Well, might makes right until you're on the looser side. So be careful with that.
personally I think all cultures, including western culture should actively pursue the critique and appreciation of strangers.
Orientalists generally didn't bomb anyone or anything, they hung out and enjoyed these cultures, albeit with a skewed perspective.
The people that bomb and bully want to keep their cultures, and want others, under foot, to keep to their own.. far away!
@@gonzalo9514
No, genitale mutilation on, especially on girls is disgusting, horrible, a nightmare.
There are people who travel there to educate uneducated people. What else do you want to do?
The problem is if you have the attitude that your culture is more developed or superior and that is what the West does, has done, is still doing.
A lot of comments already. You're doing a great job anyway! Keep going!
As a Saudi and muslim living in the "west" colonialist orientalsim is still alive and well. The enlightened west is still trying to dominate us socially and economically. This channel is great though. You do a great job in the way you depict the islamicate world.
As a sidenote i personally like orientalist art although I'm well aware of how inaccurate it is
It definitely has a cool aesthetic.
Not really, our societies have changed drastically from the Imperial era, our institutions tend to be more dominated by postmodernist thought.
You literally have Salafi masjids all over the West, I would say we are probably too accommodating
Well, don't live there? Go back to your home country and nobody will be "colonial" there.
@@Iisheell He won't. Never. That's the funny thing. Racism, Izlamophobia , colonailism and all notwithstanding.
@@ryanbowler6212 oh the average folk is more lost than accommodating,, it's not about accommodating or not it's about realising what is what without generalising like a sheep,, why they may accommodate and sometimes may have opinions like yours "too accommodating" because deep down they know there's something good but possibly there's something bad too,, so what's going to break the cycle of confusion and clarify your vision? learning things for what they are and not following the lazy generalising ways of thinking and attacking people with ignorance left and right that doesn't breed nothing but toxic energy..
Another cool one dude. Read Said when I studied Literary Theory & Cultural History at Uni in the late 80's early 90's, as part of a post-colonial studies unit called 'The Empire Writes Back', named after a book of the same name, containing essays by people from newly independent nations saying how it was from their perspective. It opened my eyes to concepts like hegemony.
I am an ethnic Assyrian and my frustration with Edward Said is that he erased the religious and ethnic minorities of the Middle East view the problem from an Arab perspective.
That isn’t really fair to accuse him of around the 70s him calling himself Palestinian and claiming it as an ethnicity was still controversial to western wars. As well don’t you think if he talked about Assyrians he would be accused of speaking over them. You also say religious minorities implying Christians but not all SWANA Christians experience the same thing an Assyrians will not experience the same as a Lebanese Christian or the same as a Palestinian Christian. As well people bring up religious minorities ignoring the people of the same religion don’t automatically get grouped in and treated the same you see this with Shias of all branches in places like Lebanon, Bahrain, Iraq, and Yemen and differing branches of CatholicIsm in SWANA against orthodox christians (you can see this in Lebanon).
Intersting point. I dont think Edward Said erased the identities of minorities. He is simply pointing out to the dangers of allowing a culture/group (believing to be superior) to assume identities for other groups and biasly box them. Let me give you an example of that danger.
If you are truly Assyrian, your name wouldn't be Kevin Wahl (a very German last name). What makes you assume a name of that superior culture rather than a pseudo name of your own beautiful language? Equally so, if you are truly Assyrian, who has suffered from inadequate and horrible treatments as a result of the tyranny of the pan arabism, what convinced you to blame Arabs (who have also horrendously suffered from pan arabism)? rather than focusing the responsibility on the murderous regimes; The blame of the Arabs and the muslims to your folks' mistreaemt is an orientalist rhetoric repated by Western media to imply the savagery of "the other", their lack of tolerance and evoke the sense of assurance of their well evolved background and the better civilized religion.
In simple Enhlish, the problem of your own point view is the orientlist machine at work.
Capech.
PS I'm also of christian background from the middle east
I suspect he was inclined from delving into the reality of minorities in the Middle East because he generally romanticized the Ottoman Empire as a scene of organic harmony before imperialist others began intruding on it.
Typical pan-Arabist shit
You know he was a palestinian Christian right?
I am always suspicious of people who feel the need to label others and thereby “box the in“. I for one, really appreciate the knowledge you share, and I have a high degree of confidence that you work very hard to organize a balanced perspective.
I do not think of you Filip as an orientalist as you described its meaning (not that I knew this word before). I do know that I have finally found in you a place where i can learn all these things without fearing some agenda to be pushed. Even as a Muslim, I have preferred to learn Islamic history and philosophy from your videos than from any other source I used prior, including Muslim scholars themselves. And it is for the specific reason that your videos give detailed and unbiased information on topics that I find Muslim scholars to be always biased about (in one direction or another). Thanks for that. I did learn from this video that I myself have been guilty of the very behavior that you warn against, dichotomizing humanity as western vs eastern, two grand opposing mindsets. Though perhaps it’s important to note (sadly) that this contemporary, postcolonial world of ours actually HAS that dichotomy built into it, now by both sides and exacerbated by globalization etc. eg. If an Arab and a Vietnamese find themselves in a café surrounded otherwise by white folks, there’s GONNA be a mild sense of nodding at each other in familiarity. How weird is that now that I’ve watched this video.. Actually I’d say that it’s probably BECAUSE of colonialism and orientalism (the bad kind) that this dichotomy exists, and it was probably never intrinsic to the nature of humans in general. And that feels good to know as a takeaway for myself. Thank you for that too! Our prophet once said Seek knowledge from whence it may come, even from China (or from Sweden) and I really appreciate you man. Don’t worry about what the internet says just Do you bro!
My bias leads me to believe you are doing a great job. Thank you
I do want to say that ruling groups tried to justify their superiority through ideologies. Kings over peasants, european elites (especially west europeans) on african slaves in the US before emancipation, muslim rulers over the conquered populations, etc. It is a way to naturalize otherwise historic hierarchies to prevent loss of power and assuage any guilt for enforcing domination upon people with equal dignity.
You're an amazing educator. I myself ascribe to Salafi Islam and I really enjoy listening to your explanations while creating Art. Thank you very much.
Good episode Philip, I am horrified but not surprised that you (of all people) have been accused of orientalism, however I note in the comments section plenty of people of many faiths and nationalities who like me really appreciate your work, unfortunately I feel that in getting lost in the labyrinth of Identity politics, many are losing their actual identity to a lot of shallow ideology of categorising, which is exactly the mistake of the orientalists.
I think he does decent work however the video I think he should have never made was on alawites because his sources probably (because those are the only widely available sources on alawites) came from orientalist perspectives. These sources also had articles saying alawites only know called themselves Shias (even though they are the first Syrian Muslims) and just try to peddle anti-Iran conspiracies. As well no one really has access to alawites beliefs outside of alawites (a lot of them especially in Egypt hide that they are Alawite so that should clue you in) I think with that being said the sources he used making that video were orientalist, I do not think he is.
Excellent honest, factual clear and educational presentation brother.
People like to learn about people, if anything we should be comparing our notes on one another
"(...) we should be comparing our notes on one another (...)"
True.
a much needed discussion. sincere thanks.
Breh, I showed your video on Advaita vedanta to my mum, who showed it to her Advaita priest and he loved it.
I've always felt like your work was very post-colonial and respectful
Keep doing what you do!! Bias has lost control. Academia has a responsibility to inform.
Great video.
I remember being greatly impressed by Saids book when I read it in my mid-twenties. But when I tried to re-read it two decades later I found it almost unbearably wordy and pretentious. I mean, I still think he makes a very good point, it’s just a tough read.
I probably should confess that I am by now embarrasingly fond of a lot of the art and literature that Said critizised, very rightly critizised I should say. But still…
To be fair, I feel that way about many authors.
I've always felt like Said's critiques were aimed at a very specific, niche community of scholars that held relevance for a brief period of time and place. It's like writing a book about the problem with economics as a whole, when you really have a problem with a small subsection of economic thought.
The problem is that the cheerleaders of his works (and Said himself once he got famous from the book) willingly opened the door for this critique to proliferate, and allowed it to pervade Academia in a way that I don't think is necessarily healthy.
Great Video. Make more like this one.
People calling you an orientalist are just there to throw smart words around and have fun with cancel culture. The respectful and sensitive way in which you present your content is remarkable.
You are a wonderful educator.
Great channel and a great episode. After listening to Bildningspoddens episode about Orientalism that came out three weeks ago I can’t deny seeing the similarities, both in structure and information between your episode and theirs.
Did you listen to it and if so did it influence you and your approach to this episode?
Amazing video, refreshing perspective
As someone currently living in ME, I don't think your work is Orientalist at all. I learnt a lot about the culture and the region by watching your videos. Keep up the good work.
متشکرم.
The fact that you learn about your region from this secondary source instead of your primary sources says a lot about your cultural subjugation. Unable to learn from his own tradition, always dependant on a foreign intermediary. Whether you think this intermediary is Orientalist or not, it doesn't matter.
@@moroccandeepweb5880 lol, buddy i read alot of primary sources and know my history well, but im not stupid or arrogant enough to think that you can never learn anything from someone just because they speak english and have a white skin.
@@dondovahkiin7899 Well, if that's the case, I am sorry. Certainly, there is a lot to learn from Westerners, especially in terms of methodology, but not at the expense of our heritage. More power to you.
سلام از مراكش.
Your video was extremely helpful. Thank you!
This was a great video, As far as I know, Your takes are usually purely academic, I don't consider you to be holding some sort of agenda against the orient in general.
As usual, very enlightening
When I read Said's book, I was struck by the fact that it was concerned almost exclusively with the Middle East, and to a lesser extent the broader Muslim world. India and the Far East are barely mentioned. Yet, when the term "Orientalist" began to appear in the 19th Century, it referred primarily to people who studied China, Japan and Korea, places which were vaguely called "The Orient." The scholars who studied that area were fascinated primarily by its art, its languages, and most of all, by its philosophy, which many found very appealing (and many considered superior to and more advanced than Christianity). The scholars who considered themselves "Orientalists" were saturated in the classics of Greek and Roman literature, not with the Bible or Christian doctrine. An educated Englishman was expected to be familiar with the Analects of Confucius, just as he was supposed to know his Plato and Aeschylus. American scholars have a 150-year-long love affair with China, and in the 1920-40s this spilled over into popular culture with the fantastically popular novels of Pearl Buck and Lin Yutang. Even today, if you ask a scholar in Canada or the U.S. where "the Orient" is, they will not think of the Middle East at all. China and Japan are "the Orient".
The British presence in India generated a scholarship which was much more tinged with colonialist prejudice. It more or less ignored the domestic culture of India and focused primarily on the complex religious literature of Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism, attracting people who delighted in mysticism and mystery. European mystics like Madame Blavatsky produced synchretic doctrines, and for generations various gurus found admiring followers in Europe and America. When the respected and internationally popular Bengali author Rabindranath Tagore visited Toronto, Canada, he was mobbed by the largest crowd of admirers who had ever assembled in that city for anyone...and his books could be found on the mantlepieces of many ordinary Canadian homes and farm houses (along with the godlike Robbie Burns and Walter Scott). Gradually, the word "Orientalist" came to include the study of every society in Eurasia that was not in the Christian realm of Western Europe, and even Russia (which remained "Oriental" in the minds of people in France, Germany or Britain). But the Middle East was never its main focus.
But to Said, "the Orient" only meant the Islamic world, and his narrative of European arrogance turns on the fact that Christianity and Islam have been rival monotheistic and expansionist religions adjacent to each other for thirteen centuries. Within that framework, much of what he says makes sense. The hostility and arrogance is definitely there, even among the very small number of scholars who admired Islam (much as the European scholars of the Middle Ages admired and imitated the Muslim scientists and theologians while remaining hostile to the rival faith). Nor does he notice that most of prejudicial images of the Middle East are no different from the prejudicial images that Protestant scholars attributed to Catholic societies. Said's analysis flounders anywhere east of the Indus, where the images of the Orient held by Europeans and North Americans seldom follow his preconceptions. Nobody was reading Confucius or Mencius under the impression that they were either primitive or salacious, or represented an "other" that had to be conquered and schooled.
Hegel's views of Chinese philosophy are heavily orientalist, and it's not until more recently that Confucius and Mencius have been taken seriously in the West, at least since Liebniz. Moreover there's a fetishized orientalism as much as there is a dismissive orientalism, so even positive portrayals of "the east" can be orientalist insofar as the portrayals are articulated knowingly or unknowingly to fit the agenda of the author (say, spiritualists trying to say the "east" was "more spiritual" which commits erasure on all forms of non-western rationalism)
@@sankarchaya Both Liebniz and Hegel are far earlier than the period I was addressing (the late Victorian and Edwardian eras, when the academic profession of "Orientalist" appeared and universities began to have departments of "Oriental Studies"). My point was that while Said's thesis rings true enough where the Middle East is concerned, it is less convincing in other regions of study. Said focuses almost exclusively on this one region, ignoring everything else --- a pretty good example of a thesis shaped "unknowingly to fit the agenda of the author". Don't get me wrong: Said's work was very important, and he was a fine scholar, but it had some limitations. I agree that many people who consider everything "eastern" to be more "spiritual" are being basically silly ----- there is just as much mysticism in European intellectual history as anywhere else. The entire world is stuffed with mysticism. But most of the serious European scholars of the Far East in the period I refer to were not attracted to its philosophy because they thought it was mystical ---- far from it. They were attracted to it because it seemed to them more rational. They certainly didn't "erase" anything, considering that most of them collaborated with Asian scholars who had exactly the same opinion. Said built up a case in which he looked only at his local experience ---- the background of a centuries-long rivalry between Christianity and Islam --- and expanded it into a generalized cartoon. In short, he invented a kind of "Occidentalism" that strongly resembled the "Orientalism" that he felt he was exposing. Much of what he wrote depended on putting a sinister caste on what amounts to a psychological platitude: everyone's notions of other people who are far away tend to be vague, overgeneralized and prone to error, and are often dismissive or downright contemptuous. One need only talk to a Canadian from Alberta for ten minutes to discover that they have some pretty weird notions of life in Ontario, Quebec, or Newfoundland. And the Newfoundlander or Quebecois has equally strange notions of Alberta. And that is all taking place in one country! In the 19th century, English opinions of the Irish bore a strong resemblance to their opinions of Asians, and often prominent intellectuals used the same arguments and images to diminish and dismiss the Irish as they used with Italian peasants, tribes in the Amazon, or Indian coolies. In the early Meiji Restoration period in Japan, many Japanese scholars and students were eager to study Europe and America, and made great efforts to do so. In the process, they formed some quite peculiar ideas about Europe and America (and these opinions were firmly anchored in an unflinching sense of their own superiority). Said pointed out many things that were worth pointing out, but his work has some weaknesses and inconsistencies. He was, like he himself would no doubt agree, a product of his personal experiences, his time, and his location. As for Hegel, I have never found anything in Hegel that wasn't an incoherent stew of prejudice and mystical rubbish, so it hardly surprises me that his opinions about any culture or region were stupid.
@@philpaine3068 i disagree with you about Hegel, he was a brilliant philosopher even if hard to understand. And one good thing we get from Hegel is a positive understanding of how critique builds intellectual self-awareness that is necessary for grasping towards the truth. but even if he wasn't brilliant he was hugely influential in continental European thought as was his misunderstanding of East Asian thinking. Even aside from his influence he was hardly alone in blatantly reducing East Asian thinking to simplistic tropes, even among those scholars who should have known better. So even if Said's thesis does not apply to academic study of India or China quite as well as the Middle East, I think it still largely applies. Certainly, one can look at British views of Hinduism. Even the idea of Hinduism as such is in some respects an orientalist conception (ironically originating from Muslim understandings). There is not really one religion of Hinduism the way we might say there is a single Catholic church, and the concept serves a way of outsiders to conceive of the interrelated variety of Indian religious traditions that hold some sort of vedic orthodoxy.
I think arguably the example of the Irish proves the point actually, as the British certainly had stereotyped and one-sided understandings of the Irish stemming from a top-down administrative viewpoint. They certainly saw the Irish as an "other". I don't think Said's thesis is inconsistent with the idea that Western scholars did this to other, even Western groups too, or that we even may see similar phenomenon within Western states. Certainly one can criticize Western academic tropes like the "noble savage" native Americans on similar lines. But also simplistic narratives about Appalachian whites, African Americans, and various other groups abound. If anything it should only follow from Said's critique of orientalism that other studies potentially suffer the same prejudicial pitfalls. And one could say the same for East Asian views of the West, such as Japanese prejudice about Europeans. If Said's analysis holds about European scholars it SHOULD hold about Japanese scholar's views of Europe, since it's not really a moral failing so much as an epistemic one that emerges out of otherness.
Also if I recall a lot of the examples from Said's thinking were francophone as well as anglophone. Orientalism as a study of Middle Eastern cultures as well as just East Asian cultures stems in part from French expansion into the Middle East, especially with Napoleon or the conquest of North Africa, as well as later French and British conquest of Turkish colonies in Africa and the Middle East in the 19th century. So there certainly was an Arab "orient" as well as an east asian "orient" and this is reflected in the academic study of orientalism, even if it is not reflected in lay terminology like "the oriental" referring to East Asia.
Also as the video points out Said wasn't saying all orientalist scholarship was necessarily bad or never engaged with East Asian thinking, just that it was not self-aware in how it related to the "other" and this leads to important scholarly oversights and oversimplifications. There are some particularly awful cases, but not all cases need to be particularly awful to be worthy of critique. Certainly, our understanding of, say, Buddhism, Confucianism and Hinduism are richer today thanks to the critique of 19th century research into these traditions, even if some or even much of that older research still had valuable insights. Critique isn't about shitting on everything that came before us, but by constantly developing and revising our theoretical insights to improve our scholarly tradition.
Just to be clear its certainly worth critiquing Said as well of course. I don't mean to say otherwise.
as an aside i was initially surprised when i read his work that it did not discuss east asia or india more, but at the same time I also already thought of the studies in a lot of those societies as problematic too
@@sankarchaya They are indeed, but usually in different ways. My only objection to Said's work was that he was a bit tone-deaf to the differences and crammed everything into a preconceived narrative, based on the historical rivalry between Christianity and Islam, which are both "Abrahamic" religions with much the same attitudes about faith, belief, and unbelief. There is no similar grand historical rivalry between Christianity and Buddhism, Daoism, or Confucian philosophy, so the points of contention are different. India was colonized for a long period, with the British usurping the dominant political and social position that Mughal aristocracy had held (so much so that it largely governed India using the Mughal's Persian system of administration). This was very different from both the situation in the Middle East and the situation in the Far East. Let's face it ---- human beings, even with the best of intentions, are not very good at conceptually handling whatever they experience as foreign or exotic, so you can expect cartoon images and half-assed notions to dominate every utterance... including those of brilliant scholars. I live in a country where my far northern First Nations heritage and experience evokes no end of silly generalizations from perfectly intelligent people in Toronto. Enough to make me groan when I hear them. Grow up hunting moose and paddling a canoe every day and you won't always be on the same wavelength as someone who commutes to an office by subway and eats mostly sushi and pizza.
Great teaching Brother Holm. Enjoyed it!
Doing an amazing Job I love your content dude :) ❣️✨
Continue to enjoy your talks. Your wisdom highly exceeds your years. (Suppose that could be considered ageism.)
Agreed.
The west is still filled with misleading information on the Middle East, and especially Islam. I've taken the time to read the Qur'an and was shocked to see the similarities when it comes to their laws, practices, prophets and so on. As well, as the many differences which makes it interesting to read and study further.
Even convincing my mother they worshipped the same God, after she argued with me about it. Lol
Islam is a Abrahamic religion.
@@janerkenbrack3373 Yes, I know this but I can see how my comment looks like it sits outside of that. Thank you
@@HeWhoShams what Jan means is, "they have alot of things in common with Abrahamic religions" could have been worded better :)
@@harishthethird Facts, my fault.
They aren't the same God. The fundamental difference is the belief that Jesus was a living son of God, died and was resurrected. This is absolutely nothing like what is in the Quran. You are leading your mother astray with a hobbyist's view of islam. The Quran is only a piece. Read the hadiths and the sunnah as well--without them, reading the Quran is pointless. The hadiths provide the framework for how one is to interpret the Quran. They are essential and are the basis for hardline, orthodox islam as seen in groups like ISIS.
As some who was also educated to be critical of orientalism, I am very sure that you do not falling orientalist scholarship. It's clear to by the specificity of your work, and careful attention to counterfactuals and contextualisation. Your videos when discussing sufism I think really highlight this attention, helping break some of my preconceptions about sufism.
Keep up the excellent work.
The orient is the east. They used to have maps with the east in the place of the north. Thus it is the way you orient the map.
Yup before then the only people who were known as “Asians” were central asians now they hijack the term asian
@@eliza1826 not sure about """"hijacking"""" buddy, as the whole continent (including what is called the Far East) is called Asia. 🤷♂️
@@LuiKang043 not really. West and central asia were the “og asians” meanwhile East asia was referred to as orientals and southeast Asians weren’t even considered Asians.
You're doing awesome job 👏
Drinking game: take a shot every time he says "problematic".
There's a lot to unpack in this statement.
That's a pretty problematic mindset.
I’m really getting a lot out of your videos. Thank you.
I’ve never understood the “logic” of traveling to a foreign country/continent, realizing those people have their own cultural identity, then deciding it must be fixed at once.
Because relativism is toxic. China has a "cultural identity" and it includes concentration camps. It also matters even more if they want trade with you and you want trade with them.
@@CthonicSoulChicken and taking the vital organs out of living "orientals!"
@@htoodoh5770 akaThe Doctrine of Discovery. It was an imperialistic justification for colonialism just and doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
As if these world police countries like America, England, and France did not prop up Al-Qaeda, Wahhabism, or even try to replace SWANA Christianity with western evangelicalism (best example is in Egypt).
@@vannakinder352 first off France is Catholic, so pretending that they tried to replace anything with Evangelicalism is not very intelligent, and secondly, the main people propping up Wahhabism is Saudi Arabia, and third, that propping up by the Saudis'is what led to Al-Qaeda and ISIS
Peace and blessings 🙏... I appreciate the humility and pace your delivery be on point ..
why are you saying again and again that these scholars did not mean to do it but unconsciously did it? No, that ain't the case. I come from a region where when we protested against the Colonizer, The English in course case, we, especially my community, were literally vilified and labelled as "fanatics", "uncultured", and"intolent". We were systematically excluded for hundreds of years. Only those who subscribed to the English ideas and supported them saw any kind of socio-economic mobility. English authors wrote evil things about us, and so many people accepted it; the knowledge produced by the English is still used by other communities to dominate and marginalise us.
what religiion?
You do a great job! - keep doing it ! - don’t let the turkeys get you down….you can only ever be the best version of you - for those off us that appreciate what you do please don’t let somebody else’s critical & uninformed comments stop you.-Blessings on you and your work.
Excellent video!
As a "Westerner" from the USA I've always been fascinated with Orientalism especially as an art genre of the 19th and 20th centuries, Jean Leon Gerome being my favorite. Total eye candy and a way to present to a Western audience (which had a growing interest in all things "Oriental" feuled by the archaeological work in Egypt) the exotic (landscapes, daily life etc) and titillating (harem scenes, etc...which of course was exaggerated and tailored for the Western male).
Burton's translation of the 1001 Nights was made palatable yet for a Western audience yet retaining a certain amount "naughtiness" to garner interest (aka $$$). Hussain Haddaway's 1990 translation is much more readable and explicit...
What a gem of a video. Thanks!
Sadiq Jalal al-'Azm's - Orientalism and Orientalism in Reverse is the most interesting reply to Said and the phenomenon of Orientalism I have come across. He points out alot of contradictions in Said's work and deconstructs the artificial mirror between East and West further.
Thank youuu for this! Will check it out
I'm commenting mainly so you'll get more recommended. Your videos make a great background for when I'm painting though - plus even though you're probably not a native in english (neither am I), your pronounciation, accent, speed and intonation make listening to you a very pleasant experience. Hope you'll keep on doing videos as such; even if I'm not fully focused on listening, I still learn a lot because of you.
I've been asking myself : if orientalists portray the "East" as different, how can you tackle it without lacking cultural relativism, or better said without falling into some kind of universalist mindset ? In French sinology there has been a similar debate between JF Jullien and F Billeter and it has left me puzzled. If any of you guys has a thought on the subject, I'd be happy to hear it.
Hello, this is interesting to me. Could you recommend me readings on this debate? Thank you.
@@94josema Well, I'd be happy to, though I do not know if the books I read on the subject are currently available in an English translation. If not, and if you happen to speak French or German and are willing to give it a try, you should be able to find any of Jean François Billeter's books.
Billeter is a Swiss sinologist mostly known for having greatly improved the understanding of the Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu in Wade) in Europe. I recommend reading “Lessons on the Zhuangzi” and “Studies on the Zhuangzi”, in which his explains in depth his methodology concerning the interpretation and translation of ancient chinese texts. He also wrote a more polemical essay entitled “Against François Jullien”, in which he directly and very openly criticizes François Jullien works, accusing him of portraying a mystified and fantasist vision of China.
Most of François Jullien’s works on the other hand are available in English. I didn’t read any of his works, so I can’t give any reference in particular. You should know though that he wrote an answer to Billeter’s polemical essay, but I can’t find a translation in English for this one.
Both of them are brilliant scholars, so I guess the truth must be somewhere in the middle. Billeter gave an interesting interview in which he sums up the debate, which is available on youtube with English subtitles : ua-cam.com/video/cthAXVJuu_Y/v-deo.html
@@maximebaron254 I'm not a native english speaker, I'm spanish and I can grasp some french if I pay attention or find help with a translator. I already read F. Jullien's The Silent Transformations in spanish and I would like to read Billeter books too, but they are mostly untranslated. If you want to refer to me any other resource in french that would be very helpful too.
The term orient as a reference to the east dates back to maps before the discovery of magnetic north when maps "oriented" the map so that east was facing up.
Exactly so why do they consider “oriental” as offensive again? They legit hijacked the term asian
@@eliza1826 Who are "they"? Do you actually know these people by name or just a figment.
@@dorkanderson4963 the westerners idiot, that’s the ones who gave them the names.
Orientalism comes from the Latin or Etruscan word: Orient, which means the East. It is simple definition. It relates to Latin cultural countries, including England and English speaking countries, France and Germany and their perspective only.
Germany? I can England cuz the Empire and all that but Germany?
@@FernandoMendoza-dw8nz Latin meaning Western European culture/civilization as shaped by the lagacy of the Western Roman Empire, Latin (Catholic/Protestant) Christianity, the Renaissance etc. The primary distinctions (in terms of civilizations) would be the West vs the Byzantine/Orthodox Christianity and West vs. the Muslim (Arab/Ottoman/Persian) world. In the 16th-19th centuries Europeans also acquired a certain understanding of civilizations influenced primarily by the cultures of India and China.
The Muslim world, India, and China later got to be included in the one big umbrella term of Orient, even long before the Europeans were able to colonize or heavily influence the economies and politics of Asia and North Africa.
@@pawel198812 a century ago all the Balkans were considered "orient".. hello from Romania
@@luciano3270 I know, it's crazy. In the 17th century Poland-Lithuania and Muscovy had their own Oriental neighbour country located on their southern borders - the Crimean Khanate, a land of strange people following strange customs, speaking a strange language, and practicing a surprisingly similar religion (much more similar than we tend to realize today). Border regions are always difficult to categorize. There are no clear borders, only transition zones.
Btw, what's it like living in a post-Ottoman, post-communist, liberal democracy?
@@pawel198812 neo-communism with balkan flavor ))))
Excellent video. Thank you for spreading knowledge about this subject.
I very much enjoyed your presentation. As a corrective to Edward Said's book, I would recommend Robert Irwin's 'For Lust of Knowing'. Ironically, Said himself apparently had little respect for Islamic culture, with all its intellectual and social complexity. Perhaps the pursuit of 'post-colonial' studies is itself a recent outgrowth of some very Western, modernist ideas about cultural relativity. But that's another intellectual rabbit hole, of course...
You're good bro, very informative and very academic.
Don't sweat the haters.
I am a little shocked and a little sad to hear that you have been accused of being an Orientalist. Only a little though. Why, you might ask? The answer to that is more saddening in my perspective than the accusation itself. It seems to me that in our modern times, especially of late, there has been a very huge push in what I will call "segregationist" thinking. What was once thought of as an appalling viewpoint, and rightly so, has become a celebrated virtue. Everyone wants to divide. Everyone wants to live apart. And based on that you, as a European, stand guilty of being a racist simply because you study and speak about something that is not of European origin. No judge, no jury....your place of origin is all the evidence needed. A truly disgusting and backward way of thinking if I've ever seen one. I'm a Muslim from Iraq, not a scholar by any account, but well read I'd like to think. I find the things you speak of fascinating, intellectually stimulating, and more importantly, nuanced and balanced. I've never heard you say anything at all that might come across in any way as based in colonialist thinking. Your videos in fact are quite enlightening on many subjects. The depth of your knowledge is obvious and you are a very credible source of information, at least in my humble opinion. I am sure that those who make this accusation against you see it quite differently. I have a theory as to why. In my life I've met and associated with many people who I believe now would also accuse you of this. Luckily, those relationships have been severed long ago. But what I can see that holds true for nearly all of these types of people are that they are intelligent, angry, and unable to think critically without their thoughts being overrun by emotions. Because of this, they look for simple answers like white man=bad man. They are unable to see beyond this, truly. It comforts them to have easy answers to rather difficult questions. It makes them feel that they have made some kind of personal progress to conquering their demons. They have made none in reality, they are simply succumbing to the same kind of thought as the Orientalists themselves seem to have, except in reverse. It feels good to point fingers and put yourself in the place of superiority. This is what they do. Unfortunately for the world, and I truly mean the entire world, this type of thinking is being encouraged and applauded. Keep doing the good work that you do and don't give in to them. They are a deluded mess, looking for answers in the wrong place and finding none, hence they lash out and make accusations. I would argue that they themselves have become the new racists.
I'm of no religion from the US and I very much like your take and view. I think human is the only race see and that it's not better then the rest of the animal Kingdom we are apart of. We all live on this rock. Glad you're on it with me
Very well said.
As a fellow believer, I agree
Very well said
Very informative video, learned something new today. Thanks!