love these conversations. the ecosystem analogy is good, i like using the term "ethos" of an area. after learning about the grading of an area, you are really just using grades to guide you to what level of effort you want to put in. grading is just a guide. and its okay to grade chase, humans are a competitive creature. the problem with siegrest climbs is they tend to break the "norm" and ego, especially of people who think they are entitled to walk up whatever grade. i though the red red was hard but not pink tag. its a good transition between the grades. one last thing is the moonboard is limited by the amount of space you can travel which is why most of the climbs will be scrunchy,flexy,punchy moves where as the normal climbing wall tends to lead towards better real climbing movement.
Gym grades vary so much. In my experience, the more "corporate" the gym, the softer the grading in general. The stiffest grading is always the hole in the wall tiny old school bouldering gyms.
I think the bigger "corpo" gyms tend to grade more softly in order to make progression easier and smoother If people feel like they're constantly progressing and not plateauing, they're more likely to keep coming back
Grading is the eternal discussion of the climbing community! All of the V4s you were on looked like hard V4s to me. But I like the idea of thinking about separate ecosystems… because board climbing feels harder than “regular” climbing to me and gyms certainly vary. So it’s more important to have consistency in each ecosystem - I think Christian brought up that point. I do need to challenge myself more on board climbs… I haven’t done much of it. I was thinking of doing a board climbing video soon with a friend from my gym who’s really strong at it! Definitely enjoyed this video 👍🏻
Thanks so much August! I encourage you to jump on the board at your gym! I'm going to be including more board content while I train hard this summer! Thanks for the feedback 🙌
Real Beginners was my first ever project on the moon board, took me about 5 sessions but I stuck with it and it’s really what got me addicted to the moonboard. My gym now has the 2024 set but next time I’m at the gym that has the 2019 set I’m 100% going to repeat Real Beginners
@@MiguelClimbs Sony killed it on that lens. What gimbal are you using? Thinking of getting gimbal again. Even though I’ve been loving, not having to carry one around since I sold my original ronin.
@@MichaelNgvyen Yeah man why not get a gimbal! I use two, the Weebill 3, and the Crane M3. Big gimbal for big setups, small gimbal for small setups. Although if you go big, wait for the Weebill 3S coming out soon. Heading out to EU for vacation later today and I'll be packing the small guy. 🙂
great discussion and topic miguel! really a major point of talking at the gym. everyones got an opinion on this. love the video dude! i sorta hold outdoor grades as the benchmark for me. gym/board training are quite subjective and are short lived. well the gym climbs as the setters reset walls. outdoors stays consistent. if the grade stands the test of time and traffic from lots of climbers over the years, i think its fairly safe to say its what ever grade its had for that time. Not that some dont get changed, we know that happens, but im talking the majority seem to stay around a grade or a vx/vx kinda grade. how awesome your mom watches all your videos! solid family support bro !
Thanks for the feedback Mike! I agree with you on the outdoor grade consensus. I'm traveling to Europe this summer. Excited to see what V4s in gyms feel like over THERE. Thanks for the constant support!
I love this series format, it is a great way to show your own progression and growth as a climber, and also for your crew. I will start recording my regular sessions at the climbing gym to do the same. Great video as always.
Awesome video man!! At the end of the day I guess it's important to remember to leave your ego at the door, focus on self improvement and don't worry about how much better some people are at climbing. Just be cool and have fun!!
I'm not generally a competitive person so grades for me are just a measure of how is my progression goin, i've sent 3 of what my gym calls a 6C-7A but i'm very convinced our gym has very soft grades but when i tried moonboarding for the first time i was crushed, it took me an entire session to send a 6A+ (The warmup problem), at first i was frustrated since i felt like i was atleast a 6B/+ climber but there are so many factors. In the end i sent it and it remains to this day one of my proudest sends. I had a blast and i'm happy i powered through the frustration. I think it's healthy to get the ego crush every now and then to help us appreciate the climb itself, and not just sending the grade. Awesome video as always Miguel! If i'm ever in vegas i'll be stopping by refuge :D
Grades for me definetly go gym -> moonboard -> outdoors. I can do v7/8 across multiple different gyms, I have gotten two v6 benchmarks on the moonboard and all the v3 benchmarks within a month and a half and outdoors I have only managed a single v5 and a few v4s so far in about 5 trips. The biggest thing to me is just how different the climbing style is between them all. I have friends that are very similar gym grade to me that can't hardly pull on a v3 moonboard problem but have sent v6 outdoors. It is all so incredibly dependent on each persons strengths and weaknesses.
Love it! I find that the difficulty of moonboard problems feel very similar to their outdoor equivalents. That said, this is more true of the gym boulders at the refuge than most gyms!
@@MiguelClimbs 😢 ya man, we out… Planning for a trip back in the fall and many more in the future! Let me know if you’re ever near Denver. Thanks for the support on the vids 🙏
Everybody claims their gym isn't soft.... I gotta say I went to the refuge once and the grades there are def stout compared to even outdoor spots like Joe's valley. Really good setting/ nice workout area.
Dude, your V4s would probably be V3s in my gym :) Haha Just kidding. I never know how they come up with the grades because one week I can do all of the V3s, and the next week, I fall off of half of them. Good video, though. I really like the way you presented the variations. Christian was a cool climber and good addition. I really liked what he brought to the discussion.
Great video, I think like you both agreed on, consistency is super important, especially in a gym setting. I also climb the moon board quite a bit and it is really hard, but again the moon board grades are pretty consistent and consistency is a great way to judge progress in any ecosystem. The real goal is to get fit and send projects outside, all are fun ways to do that.
Great discussion, good little demonstration, will be ranting in a moment about the Moonboard but was in The Refuge for a day about a month and a half ago. Thought the sets were generally good by being consistent movement to movement, and good use of space especially the massive roof. However, the cave area was excellent, especially the left and right flanks of the steep. Moonboard grading is such a joke, especially on the 2017 hold sets. Having open access to the entire kicker greatly benefits taller climbers, significantly reducing how steep the climb actually is until both feet are off. Yeah, the starts are all sits, but not everyone does sit starts equally and these are not the crux of most benchmarks, and the lighting not allowing for designated feet further reduces this accessibility. Plus, the community is hyper-focused on grading, and trying to out sandbag one another leads to this huge variability in grading even for benchmarks. Add to this the fact the holds are not actually identical with some obvious variation in depth and slight changes to set angles. Those are simply the problems for grades, and many Moonboard enthusiasts will come in here to vehemently defend the worst board in the current market. The reality is the Moonboard is a better training tool than most commercial sets, and the value in creating such a system board cannot be overstated because this is only the worst board now that there are other brilliant options following. However, they have not adopted any of the improvements from current boards, mostly changing the hold arrangement. Wish they would improve, you see more and more athletes demonstrating how great the Grasshopper, Tension 2, and Kilter are, and the majority of gyms in my area have Moonboards (there are 5 gyms with them in less than half an hour, and one gym with all 3 layouts, compared to 3 kilters of which 1 is not adjustable, 2 tension and 1 is not adjustable, and 1 grasshopper which is also not adjustable because of thinking of system boards as static angles as per the Moonboard).
Moon & Tension > Median Gym, for sure! Refuge > Median Gym (in my experiences) Moon & Tension > Refuge. Slab grading is a mystery. 😂 Comp-style grading makes no sense to me (just isn’t my style of climbing). Consistency in grading from week to week in a gym is the magic sauce. Love the leap of faith at the end! 🙏 💪 Great vid.
That Siegrist red red is crazy hard! The black hold pink next to it feels like a purple in comparison! Cool episode, always wanted to know what people thought about grading differences.
I personally started climbing about 1 year ago and only climbed indoors. The way my gym grades is solely by colours (no grade for colors). I found this approach allot more „chill“ because the range of difficulty for each color is pretty wide so i never stressed about getting that higher colour. Indoor climbs get their grade in such a short period of time, that i think its pretty unrealistic to give it an exact grade like V3 or 6b+. In my opinion it only really makes sense to give outdoor climbs an exact grade, just due to the fact allot more people climb it and can give their opinion about it.
The difference in grades is super interesting. A V0 or V1 in Fontainebleau can be pretty damn tricky, whereas a gym V0/V1 is just a straight up ladder that most people could rock up to a gym and do on their first day climbing.
🗽 From the gym in Austria: 3:40 It looks like a (6b) to (6c). The moon board (and the Kilter Board) with all these crimps is also IMO two grades more difficult. .
I think moon is it’s own thing in terms of difficulty and style. I find moon to be 2-3 grades harder than outdoor. I expect to have a similar experience on outdoor V8 (typically send in one session) as a moon V5 or maybe V6
I always thought the refuge grades looked to be about the hardest I’ve seen from any gym. Normal gym < outdoors < hard gyms < kilter < tension < moon. Also though most of the grading variance seems to be in the lower grades and once you’re in that v7-9 range a lot of the imbalance goes away and then v10+ I can see outdoors being the easiest and the boards get incredibly sandbagged and less relevant to outside since the complexity is way lower than real boulders generally
I disagree 😜 For me its: Commercial gym < kilter < moon & outdoor < my gym < Font slabs. I climbed 7B/V8 outdoor and got tossed of a Font 2C 🤣 Another note I made is that commercial gyms tend to get more accurate (closer to outdoor) grades when you get up to V7/V8 and I've heared people say before that the even higher grades usually are more spot on.
The thing that a climbing gym has to represent in grading is a way to keep it pedagogical for its customers. Climbers should, through the grades feel incentivised when to take that next step. And as such, I prefer seperate indoor grading systems than outdoors, so that they can create a larger overlap. If grade A's hardest boulder is harder than 30-40% of the next grades boulder, but also that makes the 30-40% of the next grades boulders easier than the previous. With such an overlap climbers wont feel as plateaued and its also more stress-free for setters to chuck grades around. Grades by nature are very individual, abstract and specifically (in my opinion) hard to use on a 6-week boulder. Don't respect grades, but notice them :)
Totally different climbing styles. I am currently around the same level on the Moonboard and in my gym. I trained in another gym the last 2 months and the grading was 2 grades softer.
Honestly I think grades are pretty hard to determine in general. I honestly don’t even think moonboard is that stiff and honestly find it easier than gym climbs. I get consistently burned off of V4/V5 in the gym but can send V7 on board. Climbing’s all about style and as long as you’re pulling moves u couldn’t the previous session I think you’re chilling
In my experience the moonboard grades are at least 2 higher than 'regular' gym boulders and they could even be more than that when they are highly morphological, meaning some of the cruxes were set by short climbers or really flexible climbers and taller climbers can't even get the positions correctly which makes them like 3 grades higher. I am a V8 gym climber but I have had some moonboard V3's that I straight up couldn't do in an entire session.
I agree, moon feels 2-3 grades harder for me that typical outdoor boulders as well. There are V5s on moon that I’ve tried over multiple sessions and not done. That would not happen on outdoor V5
V-grades in gyms are often soft. It makes people feel happy :) Also, most climbers have a style they are better on. I would say that a Vx climber is somebody that flashes Vx grade 50% of the time, not 100%. You can't say just because you don't climb one V4 flash that you aren't a V4 climber because there is always the chance you have an off day, you are tired, or a boulder doesn't suit your strengths.
@@MiguelClimbs I think one problem is that (outdoor) V grades in the lower range step up very quickly for beginner climbers. For example, there are 14 Font bouldering grades between 4 and 7C but only 10 V grades between V0 and V9. So Font grades have more intermediate steps which is better for beginners. I think because of this gyms in V-grade countries like USA have to rescale to accommodate so that V4 ends up being easier inside than outside.
Oh shit, question of the hour here. I'm going to have to go with B Pump. But I'd love to go back to Tokyo soon. I was definitely weaker when I made that trip out there.
I'll try those moonboard problems later tonight. Typically, my moonboard grade isn't too different from my gym grade. However, I can't finde miguelclimbs on the app. edit: nvm, just found it after resetting all filters.
@@MiguelClimbs So I did give all three of them a go. Volvo was a flash and I'd say it's on the soft side of V4. Real Beginners was a bit steeper, but still a good V4. Miguel Climbs however, is not a V4 in my book. I don't know what it is, because I couldn't send it this session. The start is fine, but the vertical moves to smaller holds were an issue. Will try again fresh another day, but it's definitely harder than the benchmark V4 problems and even the V5s in my experience do not have that powerful moves to smaller holds.
@@WyandWombat Sick dude thanks so much for trying them! Totally agree with your assessment. It took me like 5 tries to work out the catch on F16. Ok, I'm going to tell Sam Jones that it feels like V5 to other people haha. Thanks again!
Haha dang. But yeah, the grading discussion is a pretty complicated one. We just wanted to share our thoughts. Let me know if you ever come to The Refuge! Curious what you think about our V4s.
@@MiguelClimbs I DO owe Calico Basin a return. A lifetime ago, I phone interviewed John Sherman; & He basically said it's all in fun, a crack on Gill's B Scale, if anything.
Haha. Based on everything I've read, the moonboard sets themselves also differ based upon the set - with the 2016 set being pretty sandbagged, into 2017 set being really sandbagged, into 2019 set being stupidly sandbagged :D. Ofc I can't tell since I've only climbed the 16 set over my years and no access to others. But that's what I think I've heard. Like you'd have to be about 8B+ climber or smth to climb solid 19 set classic 7C kind of rumours :D And the 16 set, the only one I know, myself I would say it is very harsh yes, but it kinda still makes sense to me, there is some logic aye even if it is pretty hard. But these V4s that you climbed looked stupidly hard :D. Now I don't know what set you were climbing, I just know that it wasn't the 16 set :D
Haha we were on the 2019 set! Thanks for commenting. I think I want to do more Moonboarding videos this summer and get stronger 💪. If you ever find a 19 set, jump on!
Id say untill the 7s the rating goes from hardest 16, then 19, then 17. When you get into the 7s. Id say hardest is 19, then 17, then 16. Just my personal opinion.
love these conversations. the ecosystem analogy is good, i like using the term "ethos" of an area. after learning about the grading of an area, you are really just using grades to guide you to what level of effort you want to put in. grading is just a guide. and its okay to grade chase, humans are a competitive creature. the problem with siegrest climbs is they tend to break the "norm" and ego, especially of people who think they are entitled to walk up whatever grade. i though the red red was hard but not pink tag. its a good transition between the grades. one last thing is the moonboard is limited by the amount of space you can travel which is why most of the climbs will be scrunchy,flexy,punchy moves where as the normal climbing wall tends to lead towards better real climbing movement.
Thanks for your input Kadeem! Pinning this comment as I think it's very valuable to this grading discussion 🙌.
Gym grades vary so much. In my experience, the more "corporate" the gym, the softer the grading in general. The stiffest grading is always the hole in the wall tiny old school bouldering gyms.
Yeah totally, but consistency in the gyms weekly grading is key 🗝️
I think the bigger "corpo" gyms tend to grade more softly in order to make progression easier and smoother
If people feel like they're constantly progressing and not plateauing, they're more likely to keep coming back
Had so much fun doing this with you. Video turned out amazing. Thanks again!
Thanks Christian! You're a natural dude 😎. Like Christian's comment if you want to see him in more Sunday Sends 🙌
As always, amazing work Miguel! Total pleasure to be featured again.
🙌 We'll miss seeing your face and fauxhawk in the gym the next few months 💪
Whoa! Thank you ❤
Loved the climb comparisons of the wall and moonboard! Great Sends!
🥰
Grading is the eternal discussion of the climbing community! All of the V4s you were on looked like hard V4s to me. But I like the idea of thinking about separate ecosystems… because board climbing feels harder than “regular” climbing to me and gyms certainly vary. So it’s more important to have consistency in each ecosystem - I think Christian brought up that point. I do need to challenge myself more on board climbs… I haven’t done much of it. I was thinking of doing a board climbing video soon with a friend from my gym who’s really strong at it! Definitely enjoyed this video 👍🏻
Thanks so much August! I encourage you to jump on the board at your gym! I'm going to be including more board content while I train hard this summer! Thanks for the feedback 🙌
Real Beginners was my first ever project on the moon board, took me about 5 sessions but I stuck with it and it’s really what got me addicted to the moonboard. My gym now has the 2024 set but next time I’m at the gym that has the 2019 set I’m 100% going to repeat Real Beginners
Really like Christian's energy! Great vid as usual Miguel
Yeah he was great! Thanks Daniel! 🙌
Awwwwwwwwww, my favorite part of this video was the shoutout to Mom. I love you Leonila!! 💛💛💛
🥰
Great episode. The intro is banging! Love how all the shapes and angles and colours look with a wide lens.
Haha thanks dude. That's the 11mm for ya 🙌
@@MiguelClimbs Sony killed it on that lens. What gimbal are you using? Thinking of getting gimbal again. Even though I’ve been loving, not having to carry one around since I sold my original ronin.
@@MichaelNgvyen Yeah man why not get a gimbal! I use two, the Weebill 3, and the Crane M3. Big gimbal for big setups, small gimbal for small setups. Although if you go big, wait for the Weebill 3S coming out soon. Heading out to EU for vacation later today and I'll be packing the small guy. 🙂
great discussion and topic miguel! really a major point of talking at the gym. everyones got an opinion on this. love the video dude! i sorta hold outdoor grades as the benchmark for me. gym/board training are quite subjective and are short lived. well the gym climbs as the setters reset walls. outdoors stays consistent. if the grade stands the test of time and traffic from lots of climbers over the years, i think its fairly safe to say its what ever grade its had for that time. Not that some dont get changed, we know that happens, but im talking the majority seem to stay around a grade or a vx/vx kinda grade. how awesome your mom watches all your videos! solid family support bro !
Thanks for the feedback Mike! I agree with you on the outdoor grade consensus. I'm traveling to Europe this summer. Excited to see what V4s in gyms feel like over THERE. Thanks for the constant support!
Made the B-roll! 😂 It was nice meeting you man, love the content.
Haha thanks Tyler! 🙌 Good luck in Northern Italy.
I love this series format, it is a great way to show your own progression and growth as a climber, and also for your crew. I will start recording my regular sessions at the climbing gym to do the same. Great video as always.
Thank you bro! 🙌
I am here! Grades and feels definitely vary from gym to gym. Moonboard stuff feels nails to me, but it's gotta be due to my avoidance of overhang.
Welcome back Chad! You get the first comment award today 🥇
Awesome video man!! At the end of the day I guess it's important to remember to leave your ego at the door, focus on self improvement and don't worry about how much better some people are at climbing. Just be cool and have fun!!
Exactly! It's easy to forget that we all got into climbing because it's FUN. Thanks for watching!
You are on a roll Miguel. Another great video from start to finish!
Dang! Thanks dude! You're becoming my favorite commenter of all time 🙌
@@MiguelClimbs 😂😂
I love the vibe and quality of the vids Miguel, keep it up!
Thank you Emil! You da best!
I'm not generally a competitive person so grades for me are just a measure of how is my progression goin, i've sent 3 of what my gym calls a 6C-7A but i'm very convinced our gym has very soft grades but when i tried moonboarding for the first time i was crushed, it took me an entire session to send a 6A+ (The warmup problem), at first i was frustrated since i felt like i was atleast a 6B/+ climber but there are so many factors. In the end i sent it and it remains to this day one of my proudest sends. I had a blast and i'm happy i powered through the frustration. I think it's healthy to get the ego crush every now and then to help us appreciate the climb itself, and not just sending the grade.
Awesome video as always Miguel! If i'm ever in vegas i'll be stopping by refuge :D
Good job sticking with that Moonboard problem! Keep at it bro! You'll be hitting 7As consistently in no time 💪
@@MiguelClimbs Hehe thanks! And yeah i'd love to have a moonboard somewhere close by to train on but the closest one is several towns over
Grades for me definetly go gym -> moonboard -> outdoors. I can do v7/8 across multiple different gyms, I have gotten two v6 benchmarks on the moonboard and all the v3 benchmarks within a month and a half and outdoors I have only managed a single v5 and a few v4s so far in about 5 trips. The biggest thing to me is just how different the climbing style is between them all. I have friends that are very similar gym grade to me that can't hardly pull on a v3 moonboard problem but have sent v6 outdoors. It is all so incredibly dependent on each persons strengths and weaknesses.
Yeah totally, thanks so much for chiming in! So many different takes on this discussion, I love it.
Love it! I find that the difficulty of moonboard problems feel very similar to their outdoor equivalents. That said, this is more true of the gym boulders at the refuge than most gyms!
Dude did you skip town already? We didn't get to crush together! Gonna go comment on your Hyperglide vid right now.
@@MiguelClimbs 😢 ya man, we out… Planning for a trip back in the fall and many more in the future! Let me know if you’re ever near Denver. Thanks for the support on the vids 🙏
Everybody claims their gym isn't soft.... I gotta say I went to the refuge once and the grades there are def stout compared to even outdoor spots like Joe's valley. Really good setting/ nice workout area.
Also, I love how the auto captions kept saying “Secret V-Force” instead of Siegrist V4s 😂 Sounds like something that should go on a t-shirt.
Lol good one auto captions! 😂
Dude, your V4s would probably be V3s in my gym :) Haha Just kidding. I never know how they come up with the grades because one week I can do all of the V3s, and the next week, I fall off of half of them. Good video, though. I really like the way you presented the variations. Christian was a cool climber and good addition. I really liked what he brought to the discussion.
Thanks for watching bro! Christian's the best! 🙌
Great video, I think like you both agreed on, consistency is super important, especially in a gym setting. I also climb the moon board quite a bit and it is really hard, but again the moon board grades are pretty consistent and consistency is a great way to judge progress in any ecosystem. The real goal is to get fit and send projects outside, all are fun ways to do that.
Woah I forgot about this video! Thanks for watching! 🙌
Great discussion, good little demonstration, will be ranting in a moment about the Moonboard but was in The Refuge for a day about a month and a half ago. Thought the sets were generally good by being consistent movement to movement, and good use of space especially the massive roof. However, the cave area was excellent, especially the left and right flanks of the steep.
Moonboard grading is such a joke, especially on the 2017 hold sets. Having open access to the entire kicker greatly benefits taller climbers, significantly reducing how steep the climb actually is until both feet are off. Yeah, the starts are all sits, but not everyone does sit starts equally and these are not the crux of most benchmarks, and the lighting not allowing for designated feet further reduces this accessibility. Plus, the community is hyper-focused on grading, and trying to out sandbag one another leads to this huge variability in grading even for benchmarks. Add to this the fact the holds are not actually identical with some obvious variation in depth and slight changes to set angles.
Those are simply the problems for grades, and many Moonboard enthusiasts will come in here to vehemently defend the worst board in the current market. The reality is the Moonboard is a better training tool than most commercial sets, and the value in creating such a system board cannot be overstated because this is only the worst board now that there are other brilliant options following. However, they have not adopted any of the improvements from current boards, mostly changing the hold arrangement.
Wish they would improve, you see more and more athletes demonstrating how great the Grasshopper, Tension 2, and Kilter are, and the majority of gyms in my area have Moonboards (there are 5 gyms with them in less than half an hour, and one gym with all 3 layouts, compared to 3 kilters of which 1 is not adjustable, 2 tension and 1 is not adjustable, and 1 grasshopper which is also not adjustable because of thinking of system boards as static angles as per the Moonboard).
Thanks for the great comment Zachary! Hoping others get a chance to read your take on Moonboard grades because I think you're spot on 🙌
Moon & Tension > Median Gym, for sure!
Refuge > Median Gym (in my experiences)
Moon & Tension > Refuge.
Slab grading is a mystery. 😂 Comp-style grading makes no sense to me (just isn’t my style of climbing).
Consistency in grading from week to week in a gym is the magic sauce.
Love the leap of faith at the end! 🙏 💪
Great vid.
Haha thanks for watching to the end Richard! I HAD to take the leap in front of J-Star! 🫠
Volvo 480 is a fun climb
That Siegrist red red is crazy hard! The black hold pink next to it feels like a purple in comparison! Cool episode, always wanted to know what people thought about grading differences.
Haha thanks Jimmy!
I personally started climbing about 1 year ago and only climbed indoors. The way my gym grades is solely by colours (no grade for colors). I found this approach allot more „chill“ because the range of difficulty for each color is pretty wide so i never stressed about getting that higher colour. Indoor climbs get their grade in such a short period of time, that i think its pretty unrealistic to give it an exact grade like V3 or 6b+. In my opinion it only really makes sense to give outdoor climbs an exact grade, just due to the fact allot more people climb it and can give their opinion about it.
The difference in grades is super interesting. A V0 or V1 in Fontainebleau can be pretty damn tricky, whereas a gym V0/V1 is just a straight up ladder that most people could rock up to a gym and do on their first day climbing.
Agreed! V0 gym ladders are set so that beginners have a chance at sending haha
Use the start hold on real beginner it helps
🗽 From the gym in Austria: 3:40 It looks like a (6b) to (6c).
The moon board (and the Kilter Board) with all these crimps is also IMO two grades more difficult.
.
Yeah, I'm in Europe at the moment, and the 7a's are tough for me!
Moonboard are the real grades I think, closest to outdoor. For most gyms, grades are soft esp in the lower grades (v1-6).
I think moon is it’s own thing in terms of difficulty and style. I find moon to be 2-3 grades harder than outdoor. I expect to have a similar experience on outdoor V8 (typically send in one session) as a moon V5 or maybe V6
I always thought the refuge grades looked to be about the hardest I’ve seen from any gym.
Normal gym < outdoors < hard gyms < kilter < tension < moon.
Also though most of the grading variance seems to be in the lower grades and once you’re in that v7-9 range a lot of the imbalance goes away and then v10+ I can see outdoors being the easiest and the boards get incredibly sandbagged and less relevant to outside since the complexity is way lower than real boulders generally
Woah great comment Rex! I'll have to ask Ravioli Biceps what he thinks about board V10s next time I see him. Thanks for the feedback 🙌
I disagree 😜
For me its:
Commercial gym < kilter < moon & outdoor < my gym < Font slabs.
I climbed 7B/V8 outdoor and got tossed of a Font 2C 🤣
Another note I made is that commercial gyms tend to get more accurate (closer to outdoor) grades when you get up to V7/V8 and I've heared people say before that the even higher grades usually are more spot on.
The thing that a climbing gym has to represent in grading is a way to keep it pedagogical for its customers. Climbers should, through the grades feel incentivised when to take that next step. And as such, I prefer seperate indoor grading systems than outdoors, so that they can create a larger overlap.
If grade A's hardest boulder is harder than 30-40% of the next grades boulder, but also that makes the 30-40% of the next grades boulders easier than the previous. With such an overlap climbers wont feel as plateaued and its also more stress-free for setters to chuck grades around.
Grades by nature are very individual, abstract and specifically (in my opinion) hard to use on a 6-week boulder.
Don't respect grades, but notice them :)
Excellent points 🙌
Totally different climbing styles. I am currently around the same level on the Moonboard and in my gym. I trained in another gym the last 2 months and the grading was 2 grades softer.
Interesting! Thanks for watching bro!
Hi Miguel's mom!
😂
Honestly I think grades are pretty hard to determine in general. I honestly don’t even think moonboard is that stiff and honestly find it easier than gym climbs. I get consistently burned off of V4/V5 in the gym but can send V7 on board. Climbing’s all about style and as long as you’re pulling moves u couldn’t the previous session I think you’re chilling
Great words of wisdom here. Thanks for stopping by the channel! 🙌
In my experience the moonboard grades are at least 2 higher than 'regular' gym boulders and they could even be more than that when they are highly morphological, meaning some of the cruxes were set by short climbers or really flexible climbers and taller climbers can't even get the positions correctly which makes them like 3 grades higher. I am a V8 gym climber but I have had some moonboard V3's that I straight up couldn't do in an entire session.
Yeah, sounds like Moonboard is it's own beast. Thanks for the feedback! 💪
I agree, moon feels 2-3 grades harder for me that typical outdoor boulders as well. There are V5s on moon that I’ve tried over multiple sessions and not done. That would not happen on outdoor V5
Yeah the reach up on Real Beginners V4 is definitely tricky!
Woah thanks for checking out the vid! 🤘
V-grades in gyms are often soft. It makes people feel happy :) Also, most climbers have a style they are better on. I would say that a Vx climber is somebody that flashes Vx grade 50% of the time, not 100%. You can't say just because you don't climb one V4 flash that you aren't a V4 climber because there is always the chance you have an off day, you are tired, or a boulder doesn't suit your strengths.
Thanks for contributing to the discussion Alexei! 🤘
@@MiguelClimbs I think one problem is that (outdoor) V grades in the lower range step up very quickly for beginner climbers. For example, there are 14 Font bouldering grades between 4 and 7C but only 10 V grades between V0 and V9. So Font grades have more intermediate steps which is better for beginners. I think because of this gyms in V-grade countries like USA have to rescale to accommodate so that V4 ends up being easier inside than outside.
Mama V is the best ❤ Love her 🫶
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Which v4s are harder. Refuge or bpump?
Oh shit, question of the hour here. I'm going to have to go with B Pump. But I'd love to go back to Tokyo soon. I was definitely weaker when I made that trip out there.
@@MiguelClimbs if you ever visit chicago, hit me up. 2 movement locations opened up. amazing gyms
They changed the Jonathan v4 to a pink tag v5-6 today 😅
😂 I saw. Sorry for sandbagging it.
I'll try those moonboard problems later tonight. Typically, my moonboard grade isn't too different from my gym grade.
However, I can't finde miguelclimbs on the app.
edit: nvm, just found it after resetting all filters.
Haha sick, can't wait to hear your thoughts 🙌
@@MiguelClimbs So I did give all three of them a go.
Volvo was a flash and I'd say it's on the soft side of V4. Real Beginners was a bit steeper, but still a good V4.
Miguel Climbs however, is not a V4 in my book. I don't know what it is, because I couldn't send it this session. The start is fine, but the vertical moves to smaller holds were an issue. Will try again fresh another day, but it's definitely harder than the benchmark V4 problems and even the V5s in my experience do not have that powerful moves to smaller holds.
@@WyandWombat Sick dude thanks so much for trying them! Totally agree with your assessment. It took me like 5 tries to work out the catch on F16. Ok, I'm going to tell Sam Jones that it feels like V5 to other people haha. Thanks again!
Whenever I can't flash a V4, it must be because it's Comp Style.
Seriously,though - I recently changed gyms, and got knocked down 2 V-Grades
Haha dang. But yeah, the grading discussion is a pretty complicated one. We just wanted to share our thoughts. Let me know if you ever come to The Refuge! Curious what you think about our V4s.
@@MiguelClimbs I DO owe Calico Basin a return. A lifetime ago, I phone interviewed John Sherman; & He basically said it's all in fun, a crack on Gill's B Scale, if anything.
Hi mum!
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Haha. Based on everything I've read, the moonboard sets themselves also differ based upon the set - with the 2016 set being pretty sandbagged, into 2017 set being really sandbagged, into 2019 set being stupidly sandbagged :D. Ofc I can't tell since I've only climbed the 16 set over my years and no access to others. But that's what I think I've heard. Like you'd have to be about 8B+ climber or smth to climb solid 19 set classic 7C kind of rumours :D And the 16 set, the only one I know, myself I would say it is very harsh yes, but it kinda still makes sense to me, there is some logic aye even if it is pretty hard. But these V4s that you climbed looked stupidly hard :D. Now I don't know what set you were climbing, I just know that it wasn't the 16 set :D
Haha we were on the 2019 set! Thanks for commenting. I think I want to do more Moonboarding videos this summer and get stronger 💪. If you ever find a 19 set, jump on!
Id say untill the 7s the rating goes from hardest 16, then 19, then 17. When you get into the 7s. Id say hardest is 19, then 17, then 16. Just my personal opinion.
you gta want it more!! 🙊
Haha I know! Wasn't warmed up enough. Got the send footy eventually though 🙌