Why the Battle of Unnumbered Tears was such a disaster...
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- Опубліковано 16 гру 2023
- In this video, we look at the reasons why the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (the Nirnaeth Arnoediad) was a complete disaster for the Elves and the Edain.
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Understand that this was written by a man who in real life fought in the Battle of the Somme in WWI where 1.2 million died.
So much loss of life. And for what?
To get General Haig's drinks cabinet three inches closer to Berlin....
Wrong, though this a common misconception. The Battle of the Somme saw a total og 1.2 million casualties. A military casualty is anyone who, for whatever reason, is put out of action. At the Somme we see roughly 300 000 KIA and missing (presumed KIA). The rest of the 900 000 casualties was wounded and POW.
Remember, in most battles, the vast majority of "casualties" are not killed but wounded.
@danielkristiansen2298 true, but over a million casualties and three hundred thousand killed in a battle is a staggering number that is difficult to imagine
@@bodavidson2804 blaming Haig is so old man. the men loved Haig, and the somme had nothing to do with him making decisions
"Appear weak when you are strong, appear strong when you are weak.
Know yourself and know your enemy".
Morgoth read "Art of War". Atleast he planned this campaining well.
He had a lot of time to read during the Siege.
@@DarthGandalfYT
Success Secrets from The Dark Lord. $30 in hardback.
Put it on Santa's List now!
@@alanpennie And now I'm picturing Morgoth wearing a massive pair of sunglasses signing books at an event somewhere. Of course he's enormous, so it's kind of hard for him to use the pen.
@@napoleoncomplex2712Just don't mock him as Hurin did.....
The final stand of Huor and Hurin at the Fen of Serech enabling Turgon and his army to escape is epic. “Though, I look at you with eyes of death, from you and I a new star shall arise, farewell!
I first read that about 36 years ago and still gives me chills. If you haven’t read the Silmarillion do it, you’ll never regret it.
Yep. It's amazing how Huor, a character who appears little and only has a few lines, can be such an important part of the story.
Now that was some biblical passage
How old were you? I tried reading the Silmarillion right after LOTR, when I was 13, and couldn't get through the creation story. Maybe if I'd stuck it out...but also there are SO MANY characters and convoluted events that it might have been too much. It's also obviously written in a very different style than LOTR and the themes are so heavy that I might not have appreciated it as much at that age. I read it ten years later after I had lived and seen some sh*t, and I probably got a lot more out of it than I would have at 13.
Feanor and his sons were idiots. Feanor himself figured it out as he was dying, but never released them from his oath.
Poor Fingon though he still suffered from the hubris of the Noldor he always tried to do well by everyone.
He's definitely one of the most underrated characters in the legendarium.
My view is that even if the Union of Maedhros had not been betrayed; even if they had aid from Doriath and Nargothrond, the best they would have been able to do is reestablish the Siege of Angband. Then, once Morgoth had created winged Dragons, he would have swiftly crushed all his foes.
Yeah, the winged dragons were always going to be a game changer.
Its like putting a band aid on a quickly sinking ship basically
I disagree that the winged dragons would have assured victory for morgoth. sure they would have reaped massive destruction and great casualties, but the advantage would have been mitigated by the presence of the eagles.
I believe that, if the Easterlings had all remained loyal to Maedhros, then maybe the battle would have ended in more of a stalemate, rather than the absolute rout it ended up being.
I think it‘s interesting that in Tolkiens World (from a narrative perspective) that the free peoples are unable to defeat evil even if they all stand together without the help of devine forces both in the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings while in the Second age they seemingly could.
It mainly has to do with how powerful numenor got and the fact that sauron didn't have powerful units like the balrogs and glaurung at his disposal.
@@jonathanredacted3245 well at the time of the last Alliance Numenor had just fallen and the Kingdoms in Exile had only just been established so the Dunedain were definetly not in their best shap and still won rather easily.
To be fair, Morgoth was THEIR fault, Sauron was also their fault but they could at least push down that responsibility to middle-management (The Wizards).
The next Dark Lord that rises is all on the Free People though.
@@maylabrown4584 Yeah, the Valar somehow kinda suck when I think about it, they cause a mess and than leave the free peoples to deal with it.
@@lukasmeier9245 I wouldn't say they won rather easily considering the war basically ended lindon as a proper kingdom and partially depopulated arnor.
How the battle could have gone differently:
1.) Upon Bergen’s arrival to Nargothrond, Finrod counsels patience while he sends letters to Maedhros organizing the Union. Maedhros was typically reasonable so the offer of two silmarils and the chance to redeem the third from Thingol later would have been appealing.
2.) The armies muster. While the Eastern Army will be smaller than in the actual timeline, those losses would be a net win in that the traitorous Easterlings never enter their ranks. Meanwhile, the Western Army would be much stronger with Nargothrond emptying.
3.) With a stronger force and less time for Morgoth to prepare, the Union would have a fighting chance on the field. They could be pushed to victory one of two ways. The first involving Idril’s gift of foresight. Should she know that victory was achievable, she may have caused Gondolin to send forth its true strength rather than just a tithe to secure victory on the field. The other path involves Luthien. Her character may have wanted to follow Beren into the battle, and had she done so, I believe Thingol would have hastily mustered his strength and come late to the battle with fresh troops, the desire to save his daughter overruling his hatred of the Feanorians.
In short
Never try to win a war with one battle
you can see the influence of the somme in this battle.
This was probably one of the biggest mistakes that the Union made prior to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, they were naive and thought they could defeat Morgoth utterly in one battle, which was impossible.
If you would compare Lotr and Asoiaf you would instantly notice that the battles and wars are on a much greater Scale, which I would explain with the fact that in Lotr the bad guys (Morgoth and Sauron) are godly/angelic beings with the ability to raise massive armies. On the other side the bad guys of Asoiaf (Tywin, Joffrey, Balon) are all Mortal and were able to be deafet with military strength.
In Lotr Morgoth especially after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears was invincible without the involvement from the Valar.
PS: please excuse me for my bad grammar. And to @DarthGandalfYT another wonderful video. Thanks 👍👍
This is absolutely excellent and riveting content. In depth plunges into these battles is the type of content I can't get enough of. And this is the way it's done.
I know I get sucked into these stories like no other lotr content on UA-cam
my battles of unnumbered beers seldom go well
Hell yeah love the 1st age content!
Merry Christmas to you and yours! Thanks for all the awesome videos!!
Another masterpiece from the master DarthGandolf. Thank you good sir
I always considered the battle of unnumbered tears the equivalent of the potential scenario of the Last Alliance losing the battle at Dagorlad. Obviously they didn’t but if they did it’d feel the same way as the battle of unnumbered tears.
What if all the elves went to valinor part one
What if the 7 father's of the dwarf's awekened in Mount cundabad part two
Love this. Thank you
Such a fascinating battle. I do enjoy the lead up to it
I’ve always liked the men of the east. Their armies are unique as honestly as powerful as any other as we’ve seen throughout their history and the mystery that somewhat surrounds them
Sure but the Elves needed to Win battles like that Indefinately, while Morgoth really needed only one, and remember Morgoth has All the Advantages here, Manpower, Firepower, Seemingly Endless resources ect.
By the Battle of Unnumbred Tears the Good Guys were essentially stopping a Big Boulder it can't Lift no matter how much Strength they push back.
So interesting I like to think I know a lot about tolkiens legendarium but the first age is the least I know about great informative video and the silmarillion and children of Húrin was a great read
Two topics that might be interesting:
1. *Why did the massacre at Alqualonde warrant the response of the Valor to wall up Valinor and refuse to help the elves and men for so long?* I know that seems an obvious answer ("because they literally massacred a bunch of people") but its worth remembering that in Valinor, not only can elves speak with their dead friends and relatives in the halls of Mandos, but they can even come back from death even if slain violently or on another contintant, even as Glorfindel did. Meanwhile, they stood back and allowed the Noldor to fight Morgoth alone, which may seem justified...except they allowed the Sindar, Dwarves, and Men to get ground into the dust as well.
2. The fate of the Easterling and other men after the War of Wrath.
IIRC, the Halls of Mandos are not a prison where other Elves can visit the spirits of slain Elves. It's more like a place where each slain Elf can reflect on how well or poorly they lived their lives and if and when Manwë and Mandos decide the time is right, the Elf is re-embodied.
@@istari0 From what I understand, that's not the case, at least not strictly. I was checking watching Red Book and he explained that after Feanor's birth and the death of his mother, Finwe tried asked her to return, and she was the one who refused over and over, preferring the rest of death. Now of course, I'm getting this from a secondary source and I can't remember where he got it from, but he always sources from Tolkien's works. The episode is "The Unnatural Upbringing of Feanor." Also, I'm not sure if he was speaking to her directly, or through a message passed by Mandos and/or his servants.
That said, again, they should be able to return, as evinced by Glorfindel.
the battle of unnumbered tears and fall of gondolin are trully the coolest battles in middle earth`s history
Gwindor has to blame charges against Orcs for rages.
Imagine if the elfs had machine guns. Would they win or lose to the balrogs and the dragons?
Dragons, no, Balrogs, still yes.
@@maylabrown4584Rog and his lads would beg to differ
What if they had lightsabers?
Silmarillion: America Edition where Fingolfin duels Morgoth with an assault rifle instead of a sword.
@@DarthGandalfYT ...Morgoth STILL wins! Fingolfin duels Sauron even with the One Ring? Fingolfin WINS!
Hi, Gandalf!Here's an idea for a video: Where have all the dragons gone?
The thing is, we know that they went extinct, but why and how? They are big and strong, and i doubt that the dwarves could've hunted them all down.
Smaug was said to be the last of the great dragons - like everything else magical in Middle-Earth dragons "decayed" after the First Age and became smaller and weaker. Multiple dragons had already been killed by Dwarves and the Éothéod (ancestors of the Rohirrim, when they lived in the far North). After Smaug was taken out the remaining lesser Dragons would have been a tough fight for sure but do-able, even by lesser men, if well-armed and determined.
I think very few survived the War of Wrath.
The Silmarils were just as much to blame for the strife of the First Age as the Valar for leaving Beleriend in the hands of Morgoth prior and during the First Age. The Simarils were poison to Elves, particularly Feonor and his children. Eru and the Valar should've intervened faster then the entire population wouldn't have been culled so terribly. And the consequences of Morgoth wouldn't have been finally dealt with at the end of the Third Age.
Every time I read this chapter, there's a little piece of me that foolishly wishes for a different outcome. Devastating chapter/event.
Damn you Ulfang! 😢
a big key in ancient (pre-firearm) combat are the champions who can swing a battle by defeating the opposing champions. Surround your champions with experienced men. The regular unit just take a defensive stance, preserving the integrity of their units.
here it is a tough one because Morgoth has balrogs, along with trolls and dragons (great worms). Too bad Fingolfin was rash, as he and Feanor probably could have gone one on one with a balrog. The great champions remaining are then Fingon, Turgon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel and perhaps others. These should have held back to see where the balrogs were. even so, a defeat in detail strategy against balrogs would have been tough.
Hey Gandalf, can you talk about the works that influenced Middle earth? Specifically literature that had an influence on Middle earth.
What if celebrimbor send the 16 away like the 3 elven rings
And would the elves destroy the 19 after the last alliance
I think Sauron had the 16 other rings and gived them out to people he wanted to ensnare with the 1 later!
@@skaraturbo Sauron captured the 1st 16 Rings of Power in the opening phase of the War of the Elves and Sauron when he overran Eregion; until then Celebrimbor and the Elves had them.
I never felt like the peopling (or lack thereof) of the lands south and west of Doriath was ever properly explained. It seems like a nice place to live; maybe not a bulwark against a dragon, but definitely against the Orcs that preceded the dragon.
There were a lot of Sindar that lived across Beleriand prior to Morgoth's return, so these lands may have been at least lightly inhabited. But after the First Battle, most Sindar either fled to Doriath or joined with the Noldor in their new lands. As for the Noldor, most of them settled in the north because that's where they could most easily fight Morgoth from.
@@DarthGandalfYT Yes, but those seem like hand-waving explanations on the part of the author. Gondor occupied forward positions relative to Mordor, but didn't concentrate its population in those positions. Of course, he didn't get to finish the book...
Manpower or elfpower?
Melfpower.
Peoplepower
But what do you do when not taking a risk is itself a risk?
Why were the Waindraiders so strong ?
What would happen if Sauron survived the destruction of his ring? Instead of destroying him, it just severely hurt his power, killed the Nazgul and maybe crumpled Barad'durs foundations. Could the west survive if he still endured, just weakened and enraged?
Al-qua-londë.
pretty sure celegorm and curufin ruined EVERYTHING
Morgoth was a Valar and could never be defeated without help from the other Valar.
The Valar let Men. Elves and Dwarves suffer and die for centuries. They were real jerks
None of them were forced to fight Morgoth
@@Crafty_Spiriti mean, they were the ones who let him free after his initial capture
neither doriath nor nargathrond were even close to the most powerful kingdoms at that point in beleriand
What if the Noldor never went back to Middle Earth?
algorithm
Hey dude, Maedhros is pronounced like Maethros, not Maedros. “Dh” makes a “th” sound in Tolkien’s writing, which is similar to Welsh IIRC.
Or more like “My-thros,” not “My-eh-jross” like u said sometimes.
You are wrong, check section f of the appendices, "dh"
Morgoth did nothing wrong (in this battle)
*Sigh*
I have *never* liked the timeline of the Silmarillion. It's too compressed; even the Siege of Angband is too compressed (the "Long" Peace is less than half the length of the Watchful Peace...).
That said, I have always seen the Silmarils as representing a supernatural power of hope for... basically everyone. By Nirnaeth Anoediad, Melkor no longer had all three, thanks to Beren and Lúthien, but the liberated Silmaril was still in Beleriand.
Anyhow, my controversial, related, but tangential, take: but for Beren and Lúthien liberating a Silmaril, Melkor would have eventually won completely - and by which he would have invaded Valinor, and succeeded.
Nah not Valinor, Morgoth Just Wanted Total Domination Of Middle Earth At That Point. An Invasion On Valinor Was Unthinkable For Him By That Point. He Was Too Diminished
@@joshuabutler2717 That is just conjecture
@@joshuabutler2717Tulkas would take care of Morgoth like he did before.