Pipe closers and fire protection - new toilet (part 10)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
- Let’s take a look at some of the requirements for fire ratings and fire protection in general, for our UK house extension. We’re looking at fire rated pipe closers / pipe collars, fire doors and of course I’m fitting a fire rated cat flap. This is part 10 in our mini-series about our downstairs w/c and utility room, part of our self-build house extension.
Full playlist - utility room and downstairs loo:
• UTILITY ROOM AND DOWNS...
Full playlist - UK self-build house extension:
• SELF BUILD EXTENSION
Lots of the products I’m using are on here:
www.amazon.co.uk/shop/gosfort...
Have I saved you a few quid? Join the Member Zone to help support the channel:
members.gosforthhandyman.com/
Join the Gosforth Handyman mailing list:
rebrand.ly/ghm-newsletter
Not bothered about extra stuff? Support the channel via Patreon:
/ gosforthhandyman
Official merch including Gosforth Handyman tape measure:
gosforthhandyman.com/shop/
TOOLS & PRODUCTS I USE: gosforthhandyman.com/products...
INSTA: / gosforthhandyman
TWITTER: / gosforthandy
CORRECTIONS: gosforthhandyman.com/correcti...
All content on this channel is exclusively owned by MacLellan Creative Limited. Copyright (c) 2023. All rights reserved.
Fire Stuff Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
01:05 - UK building regulations - fire safety
06:55 - Fitting pipe closers
12:20 - Why so many holes?
14:30 - Fitting more pipe collars
17:32 - Fitting a fire-rated cat flap
25:50 - Final thoughts
#Construction #Extension #Building - Навчання та стиль
I did have to laugh, you spent a lot of time getting the manufactures stickers off the pipes, but then you had to stick those red stickers back on the pipes 😂
You need a linked smoke / heat alarm system so you are alerted the moment a fire has broken out regardless of where it is in the house / garage.
No requirement for this in the garage of an old house though. 🤔
@@GosforthHandyman aye of course. But that's why it's "ok" to have a fire safe room next to a non.
You only need a linked smoke/fire detector in the garage on a new build. For an average 3 bed house that is existing dwelling under 200 square meter.
Category LD3 - Standard life protection for a domestic property
Category LD3 systems feature detectors in all areas that form escape routes from the property. Unlike LD2 systems, LD3 systems do not have to place alarms close to high-risk sources of ignition.
LD3 starting catagory for all new build uk. LD2 for Scotland and NI
L = Life
D = Dwelling
For more information look up
Fire Alarm Categories - A guide to BS5839
That being said, I personally would put a linked smoke alarm in that area. As you have chemicals and tools in that area and could be a potential source of ignition. Call it a garage or not. For me a garage is where you can or could put a vehicle be it Petrol / Diasel / Electric. You may not use it for that use but future owners might.
Keep up the great work Andy. Great to see the cats helping you out
I'm not saying you need one to satisfy the regs. I'm saying you need one in order to know there is a fire in the fire and smoke proof room / garage before it spreads or you come across it. 👍
@@Merlin55611 I agree. Its not a legal requirement in this case but it is prudent.
Omg what a lot of palava for you. Well done for deciphering the various regulations. Thanks for the informative video 😊
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed it. 👍
Firstly, a fire door would generally have 3 fire rated hinges. Couldn’t see the third on your garage door.
Secondly, a raging fire in your garage would quickly burn itself out/starve itself such that the door would remain intact.
Thirdly, Envirograf are a top company to work with, very knowledgeable.
Lastly, yes I’m in this game and kudos for the video. 👌
Great info - cheers! I thought the same for the 3 hinge thing but struggling to find it specified anywhere. Any ideas? 👍
@@GosforthHandyman I tried posting a link to a site with information but the comment was deleted.
Simply put, you should follow the manufacturer’s installation instructions. Fire doors will always have been tested with 3 hinges, sometimes 4. The extra hinge is to support the extra weight of a fire door and to stop the door buckling in a fire. With just 2 hinges, the top hinge is under massive strain and the screws will often fail.
@@GeeWhizRS new firedoors are trash cheap crap, our morrisons had a refit , all double doors got replaced that been thre for 20+ years solid wood all fine no problems , the new MODERN fire doors are cheap crap particle bonded board that allowed most of the hinge screws to come loose and slide out
@@GeeWhizRS Agreed - I've visited many properties where a few years after installation, the door begins to sag and come away from the top hinge causing it to catch on the door leaf and come away from the top of the frame, increasing the gap beyond 4mm. @Gosforthhandyman did you fit smoke strips and intumescent seals into the door or frame? the REI30 requirement needs smoke strips and seals - having the fire door only would only meet the requirements of E30. If you've fitted the frame that comes with the door there will normally be a rebate already installed for 11mm strips, otherwise it'll mean taking the door off and routing out the edge of the door!!
To delve deeper down the rabbithole of fire resistance.... fire doors are also supposed to have intumescent hinge pads installed between the hinge and leaf....... they're not expensive but again requires the door to be removed to be installed!
Hey, I keep my car in my garage!! (Ok, so we built a brand new, much wider, electric door garage so that I could do this!) So now you know 1 person who does.😊
Ha yes, I meant more in old 1920's semis. 😁👍
Thanks, I fitted one of these as advised by council building regs fella when converting a house into a couple of flats, couldnt believe that neither the building inspector or surveyor [when I sold the house] actually bothered getting in the loft to check it was there !
What a lot of people forget when fitting intumescent fire collars for pipes is to close the annular space - the gap between the edge of the hole and the edge of the pipe with fire sealant. If not you have no smoke seal…and in most cases it’s the smoke that spreads faster than the actual flames.
👍
I think you covered all the bases Andy.😀👍
Hi Andy. I gave you a wave as I passed by Kenton and will do so again tomorrow on my way South. For what it’s worth, a friend of mine always bought a car small enough to fit in his attached garage. My double is a woodwork shop. If you are interested, tell me how and I’ll send you some pics or a video. You do great work; I especially like your attention to detail. Keep up the good work 🌞
Oh wow - ironically I was down South at the time Ray! Hope you enjoyed your trip up North! Take care. 👍😎
Good video Andy, It is good to have these safety regulations . Having a garage built to the side of your house,items containing flammable fluids ,turps, white spirits or petrol you need this fire protection . This is very useful information thanks for the video take care mate😀👍👍👍
Cheers bud!
@@GosforthHandyman Also with an EV you still have a fire risk, as the battery can still have a malfunction and catch fire, which is hard to put out as it comes with both lots of stored energy and it's own oxidiser in the cells.
I bought the exact same cat flap tunnel a couple of years ago. I also wasn't sure about the idea of the cat flap's own tunnel blocking the curtain, so I used a cat flap that was just a faceplate on either side and I glued it onto the metal flanges, then caulked round the edges to integrate it all into one unit. Wouldn't have bothered if I'd had this video and knew that you could get signed off regardless. There really aren't enough resources on things like this, so thank you!
The cat flap was installed after sign-off so your approach sounds better to me!
Re your final question. Cheap fix: a smoke alarm in the garage.
Oh defo, but not a requirement for regs. 👍
Worth checking the test documentation for the collar you have fitted. These are usually only tested on rigid floors of min 150mm concrete. They are tested for plasterboard partitions but not timber floor penetrations. I assume this is due to the heat intensity below as opposed to horizontally through a wall. I've just had to reject one at a football stadium.
You posed the question as to whether any of these regulations will be altered since there are more electric vehicles now in service. I wouldn't be surprised if the requirements would become more stringent with the adoption of electric cars as a fire in an electric vehicle is much more tenacious than in an ICE vehicle. The amount of water, and other fire-suppressant materials, needed to extinguish an electrical car fire is much greater than for an ICE vehicle.
Very possibly! Although you'd still struggle to fit one in this garage though. 🤔
Accesss hatches are the best way to go with boxing in. 😊
I thought you hide so many boxes of biscuits on the top shelf and you are so organised that even the biscuits are sorting by different sizes, #10 and #20....then suddently remembered that's the name of your cat! 😄
😂😂
Big beliver in the belt and braces approach myself Andy👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
👍👍
Thanks for another Interesting video Andy, we're considering a small utility room extension to connect our garage with our house so this would be very relevant. Like many we haven't used the Garage for the car for years but it's full of Gas canisters, flammable liquids and timber so still a fire risk !
Defo! Speak to an architect and get them to check over your plans. 👍
Andy, just for your info. You said the regs do not mention strips and seals on your garage door. The fact that this door is indicated FD30S means FD (fire door), 30 (30minute fire door) S (fitted with strips and seals)
Hope this helps
Paul
Yup good point! I think the 'S' is for Smoke. 👍👍
A garage is a garage no mater what you actually use it for, you would need a change of use to change the regulations that apply. Note just because you don’t keep a car in it doesn’t necessarily change the risk, paint, cleaning products, chemicals, lawn mowers, fuel for garden equipment, motorbikes, scooters etc all are managed under the garage building regulations.
also fire risks in garages with woodworking tools, sawdust, anglegrinder sparks, lawn mowers etc
With regards to 'when is a garage not a garage' I would suggest that if you can reasonably get a car or bike in there then it should be considered a garage even if you only use it as a home gym or store etc. You should consider future uses/owners. The next person that lives in the property may well use it as a garage. If you have replaced the garage door with a personal door or reduced the size to almost nothing I would argue that it is no longer a garage. Anything like that is worth a call to your building control officer.
Yup, I would guess the garage door is key... but what if (for example) you have a 1.5m side lean-to with a roller shutter door. Is that a garage? 🤔
May be you could fit the fire collars to your cats so they are protected?
@@jamest5149 genius
Great job. I'm not sure on all the plumbing rules here in Orlando Florida in the United States. I know the plumbing rules in the United States is different than in the United Kingdom. But you've done an amazing job. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Cheers!
never mind the regs, get interlinked fire alarms
👍👍👍.Thank you
👍👍👍
Regards garages, know a few people keeping a car in one. Know a lot more people keeping other petrol engined devices in them, whether that's motorbikes, lawnmowers, chainsaws, or in my case a portable generator.
Agree that size of single garages in UK is utterly ridiculous though.
Is there clearance for the cat-flap curtain to drop with the screws going through? They're not plastic.
Lol that's a very good point! 🤔
@@GosforthHandyman maybe you could glue the two halves together and then remove the screws once it has cured in place. (unfortunately it would have to be broken out in the event of requiring replacement)
Garage is so because you have a door that opens enough to drive a vehicle through. If you build up the doorway, and have a smaller door, person size, either single or double, and a window, in that old space, then it is no longer a garage, but a regular room, either part of the house or detached.
I think you'd have to apply for planning permission to turn a garage in to a regular room? Not 100%. 🤔
Andy to friends: "Yeah, come on over and we'll hang out in the garage."
Friends standing in 'garage': "We thought that you were going to work on your car. Our mistake."
😄😝😂
You and your huge garages! 😉🤪
yes fire regs should apply to electric cars as they have batteries holding huge amounts of energy in them, and charging cables taking many many amps
I friend of mine spent a fortune on a fancy remote controlled cat flap and to have it fitted in a glass door... cat won't use it. 😂
Classic
😬
Ref Fire plasterboard. Two layers of standard p/board used to provide 30 min fire resistance. Can't see what's changed, but then I haven't looked. Regularly used to encase steel work, garage ceilings etc..... If the fire rated stuff is no more than twice the price then, happy days.
Yup, struggling to find an official answer on this!
Can never get enough #20 biscuits.
Defo! 😂
Think of your garage as a manifacturing and repair hub. What health an saftey measures would you put in place if you had employees in your work shop? Its attatched to your family home most fires occure due to electrical faults when many people are asleep. The only regulated openings on doors is fire glass istalation or vents on a cupboard in a communual hallway. Fire doors are usually certified on fire and smoke cat flap will melt and the smoke will rise through it. Sorry if this is not what you want to hear . Would rather you are safe than be unaware of the risks. When is a fire door not a fire door. When you add non fire regulate fittings. Fire rated plaster board is especially designed and its also the finishes that are fire rated. Often doors sold as fire doors are not actually fire doors. Prem doors. Arnold laver. MBP. Rapid fit all have to sell with certification lables after doing a burn test on the doors to prove they meet fire regs. Put smoke and heat detectors in the garage and possibley a motion sensor camera that will help you know whats happening behind the door. May be worth while you doing the fdis online course which will answer all your questions and concerns it would be a great personal development investment for you in the future.
The idea is not to stop a fire but slow down it's progress.
In the case of a fire, you have very little time to get out of a burning building safely. Every second counts.
Defo!
This is very interesting. As you said, not a well covered area & I think you have definitely done more that was probably required.
So is the cat flap a microchip one? We had to upgrade ours to one with a microchip reader to stop the local toms trying to get in during the night.
My garage door to our kitchen (which I put in 30 years ago) has a got a fire door but no auto door closer. I guess I should be looking to add that that to meet current regs. We have a gas pipe in the garage that disappears into the ceiling with a bedroom above & there is no sealing around it. Humm. Thankfully there are no other penetrations into the house from the garage to worry about but it has got me wondering about what type of plasterboard is in the garage ceiling in a 1896 built house - probably just doubled up std board with a skim coat..... This has also got be wondering if the garage is the best place to store our camping gas cylinders?
We have a normal one for the internal door and a microchip one for the external door. Works amazingly well! 👍
This is a good topic.
One point I noticed was the large gap between the fire collar and the extraction fan duct, should the collar not fit almost tight?
Otherwise put an extra strip of the intumescent material in the gap.
My garage connected with the house didn't/doesn't meet the regulations.
The wall dividing the garage from the house didn't extend to the flat roof completely, sorted that out when making a new roof by filling the gap with concrete up to damp membrane level.
Garage ceiling will be boarded up with fire rated plaster board.
Door isn't fire rated, a toilet and a sleeping room!!!!! was built into part of the garage while a car could still be parked in the remaining space.
So the toilet has to go, that habitable room is going to be a work shop, the door is moved to the original separating wall and will be fire rated.
A door opening from the house into that sleeping room had a book shelf fitted in as a "permanent" closure, that opening is to be bricked up, and then all pipe work going trough is/will be metal.
Drains are in the concrete floor.
And this all before a car finally will enter the garage.
A funny note, another security device spotted in the video, an old wooden police baton.
Interesting! The gap isn't that big, might look worse on film... but it's designed to fill the full space so should be fine. 👍
Silly question: What about electric cables? Is intumescent sealer required around the cable?
fire door try to burn that chipboard, you will find it does not burn well, as it is filled with borax (green flame, do not breathe the smoke) as a fire retardant, making it fire resistant. Same for the plaster board, regular gypsum board breaks down with heat, the fire rated ones have fibre filler in them, and also the same fire retardant blended into the board, so it will take longer to burn through. Plus also the paper is impregnated to not sustain burning, keeping it intact for longer.
Can agree on you for buried stuff, especially things that are known to need replacing, like taps, where you are pretty much going to need to replace parts in a few years, yet plumbers and tilers will absolutely bury that tap into the shower, and put the tile to leave 1mm between tile and shaft, no way other than to break tiles to replace a washer. And of course will have used those "end of range special" tiles, which means you cannot ever get a replacement. Has meant I replaced 3 tiles fixing a leak, because I needed to break out to get to the top elbow, and then dig it out of the cement and fix it, then put it back in, and I left that cavity unfilled, just some sealer over the front. 3 tiles, as I had to cut the edges off 4 sides for the outlet, though lucky the top was only a half tile exactly, so used both halves. Lucky I found matching tiles so replacing taps will be easier, have a dozen spares to get down there.
Good info on the fire rating! 👍
Train the cats as fire marshals? A little hivis jacket each and a clipboard and they can lower the fire curtain :-)
😂👍
To get a garage to not be a garage it has to be converted under building regs to either a habitable or non-habitable living space (such as a utility). Inspectors discretion beyond that point I suppose. Problem for the reg compilers is if they define it, people will try to find a workaround. Can't win either way really
Yeah, that makes sense. I wonder if they're given any internal guidelines as to what can and can't reasonably be called a garage? 🤔
If you remove the “Garage” door so you can no longer drive a vehicle in, I’m guessing you can no longer classify it as a garage!
Nominal value for pipes/branches is up to 40mm don't need collars/wraps. Table 9 1. But you still need to seal any gaps etc.
Your sink branch didnt require a collar but still good practice to fit one
Are you sure? Table 9.1 sets the maximum nominal size, not minimum. So max 110mm for uPVC. 🤔
Badly written by myself, most BCOs would allow a 40mm branch to pass through without a collar provided fire stop to gaps based on para 9.4 which leads you to Table 9.1
Where can I get one of those PZ2 cold chisels you were using to chip away round the pipe? ;-)
Ha, it's actually a flat-head cold chisel. 😉
Be grateful that your external door is flat and solid, If you were adding a cat flap to a UPVC door or 2 g wood doors with a panel god help you,
re, seeing fire protection not done, how do the regs work with an old building where they didn't apply all those years ago? That is, do they make you comply on an extension but not on the old part of a house?
Quick question- I have a waste pipe that comes into the garage, the joint where the pipe comes down and then flows out is very close to the roof boards and my pip closer will not fit as in your video. .. so the question is with the pipe closer can I put it up into the boards (upside down to how you have done it) or does is need to be down like in your video?
Any help would be much appreciated
A lot of people turn their "garage" into a bedroom - I doubt the council will even know about it.
Possibly!
A genuine question: If the pipe is plastic doesn’t that negate the effectiveness of the collar as it will melt and allow the flames to pass through? Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere.
A fire door isnt a fire door without inrurmesent seals and drop seals for smoke or if has more than 3 mil gap around the door when closed. Crazy door instalers dont use fire regulated foam. A garage with electrics is still a garage especially if it has other than a concreat wall and has been boarded and insulated. Check fdis regs for door certification. fire doors are only fire door if installed by a properly trained fire door installer and should still have the individual fire door sticker either on top or where the intumesent is a must. Hindges packed correctly. Door hinges and must be fire industry approved.
A question on this older video. For ventilation do you use a 100mm collar? Its very hard to find anything in regards to this matter....
Found that the Fire Protection shop does 100mm fire collars for ventilation pvc pipes.
Just for reference for anyone looking. 3 weeks it took me trying to find a source. lol. 2 off 30mm for 1 hour each side. £45 including VAT and delivery from the supplier, £12 cheaper if they are in stock.
The door will only give 30 min fire resistance if fitted correctly otherwise it is useless and won’t last, people don’t understand that fitting of fire doors and door sets is a specialized job and often things are missed jeopardizing the integrity of the door.
You asked about the definition of a garage. I am no expert but I would say if it were possible to keep a car in it - so has a garage door. If there is no garage door maybe it is no longer a garage. I am in the process of buying a house where, I am told, one of the rooms used to be a garage. Where the garage door used to be is now a bay window. Recently has been used as a workshop. Next time I go there I will have a look at the door into this ex-garage from the rest of the house to see if it seems to be fire-rated. I have friends whose ex-garage is now the kitchen. This has been knocked through to other parts of the house so there is absolutely no fire compartmentalisation.
I believe batteries in electric cars can spontaneously combust so garage fire regulations may need to continue after the death of the internal combustion engine.
I can't remember the exact width of our garage door but I'd be very surprised if we could fit an average car through. But yes, as you say - perhaps if there's no garage door it's not a garage. But then you'd need to define what a garage door is. 😆
@@GosforthHandyman There has to be a degree of pragmatism. You won't be there forever. Could it reasonably be used as a garage by the next occupant? If it's had a "change of use permission" and been bricked/windowed up, then probably no. If it's still got a garage door of some kind that could reasonably provide access, then yes. How wide does the door need to be to get our motorbikes in? ;)
Further to your point about batteries... we have a large home battery setup in the utility room.......... nothing to cover that......... yet................
Won't the two metal screws that attach the catflap halves together stop the roll of material dropping fully should it ever get the opportunity to come into use? Plus, I'd be concerned that with that contraption there, you've now closed off the last exit of resort for the cats should a fire occur, you've effectively stopped them being able to get out of the burning house.
I think this is where theory meets reality unfortunately 🤔. All a bit of a mystery but it's full certified... apparently! The cats would be long gone though - no way they'd go anywhere near a burning garage. 👍
The other one is fixing fire collars with plastic plugs and screws….the plugs burn and the collar falls off
Defo!
council houses used to have outhouses joined to the kitchen for storing fuel etc , can claim its a accessible outhouse
👍
I think the door is made with fire resistive adhesives. The 30 mins is for you to get out, not the fire dept to get in. 30 mins is quite minimal, be grateful you don't have to deal with 1 1/2 hour requirements.
Absolutely!
I'd say, a garage is a building which allows a car to be driven into. A garage door or a gate would be a good indication of such purpose.
What width though? You'd struggle to fit a car in ours. 🤔
@@GosforthHandyman Reliant Robin? 142cm? 😅
Kinda like, why is a room upstairs a bedroom even if theirs no bed.
Kinda!
Intended use.
If you'd like to have a chat about fire safety, then feel free to reach out. I work for a fire engineering consultancy, with a passive fire protection division, we'd love to some collaborative work.
Cheers for the offer! 👍
All those made in UK stickers remind me of this scene from The IT Crowd:
ua-cam.com/users/clipUgkxm7NGwz-NjjzmbC8pLu3OfjPxU4fx6en2
😂😂
Don't you have to have a smoke alarm in the garage ?
No requirement for a smoke Detector in a garage
It would more likely be a heat detector if you were to have one. It depends on size and type of the property. Check out part B of the regs but off the top of my head I don't think you need one in a regular arrangement in a regular house. Of course, regs are the minimum requirements. Good to do more to improve safety if reasonable.
@@peterwhiteside4817 there is for new builds
Great to see current practice. Surely a hole for any pipe, plastic or copper, needs to be fire sealed. Although the copper pipe wont melt heat/flame and smoke can get through.
@alanjones3873 Sealed with intumescent sealant... but don't think they need a pipe collar.
fire rated materials is just extra tax and income for the system
🤔
Cutting a hole in the door will make it ineffective and render it useless. Not saying this to have a go Iam just informing you.
I fit fire door for a living
You can get them made with holes cut out to your specs
Dunno, this is certified for that very purpose... apparently! 👍
My garage, like most of them, is full of junk.
I think most are! 😂
Mines full of junk and motorcycles
I don’t want to do the obvious joke about “cooked chicken nuggets” but...... sorry Andy
The poor test Tuesday rig in the background all unloved and unused 😢
😢😢 It will come back!!
I'm sure this video was very interesting was unable to hear what was being said due to the music, why have music when talking.
I like the music. 👍
music only in stop motion bits plese, not when youre talking
Please stop calling your workshop passageway a garage.
If you can't park a vehicle in it, it's not a garage.
id say its more of an attached outhouse , a non liveable space part of the houses structure that also does not house automobiles
By the regs at the moment, it's a garage! 😂