ESU decoders have the following current limits for their motor circuits: Version 5 XL - 5 amps Version 5 L - 3 amps Version 5 loksound - 1.5 amps Versions 3.5 & 4 loksound - 1.1 amps Version 5 basic & Version 4 standard - 0.9 amps Version 5 Micro & Nano - 0.75 amps The basic and standard ones don't have sound but the Micro & Nano ones do. Micro & Nano are for N scale, XL & L are for 0, 1 and G scales. - Dennis
Very useful video thanks. From the point of view of us steam loco fans I would add that sticking valve gear and poor wheel quartering can greatly affect decoder loading. Yes, I always keep an eye on my Alpha Meter!😁😁
Thanks so much for this excellent explanation of this often difficult to understand topic. Your explanation of what can go wrong (and why) is very clear and your suggestions for mitigation of these risks also very easy to understand. Many, many thanks.
Thank you Eugene for highlighting the power drawing element of decoders, choice and use, which many of us are understandably ignorant about, with potentially costly results! I had a brand new Hornby HST which seemed to function OK on DC with the decoder blanking plate in, but immediately blew my new decoder when I tried to run it through DCC! I of course presumed it was a faulty new decoder out-of-the-box and as the Hornby TTS HST decoders come in twin packs I put the other one in, only for that to immediately blow too! Upon inspection/fault finding I discovered the loco circuit board on the part which housed the 8 pin female socket had blobby soldering on the underside, hidden from view, which was causing a short circuit across two pins. This was the fault. I re-soldered and tested the loco tentatively with a spare non sound DCC decoder and it was then working as it should. Explaining this to the retailer and trying to get a replacement HST TTS twin pack set of decoders from them proved to be challenging to say the least! I had another TTS decoder fail when one of the train's wagons derailed and got trapped, effectively jamming the train in a stationary position. The loco's decoder must have assumed more current was required for the motor, needless to say, it blew. Keep up the great work Eugene, your channel is a 'must view' for me. Regards, Julian.
Hi Euan, You make some interesting observations. However, your decoder cannot be overloaded if your DCC command station is designed to cut out above a certain amperage. For example, if you have a Sprog II, that has a 1 amp PSU, and if you exceed this, then all the trains on your layout stop! The JMRI app tells you the current draw, and you can programme a specific loco not to exceed a specific Amperage, if you use a more powerful PSU. Thanks for uploading.
I've only ever had a couple of decoder failures, and in both cases were TTS decoders. One was caused by a dodgy solder joint on the board and the other was caused by excessive heat build up as it was wrapped in a Hornby standard issue heat shrink tube, maybe this could cause other decoders to blow? What do you think? The only other one i've had is a Bachmann 6 pin decoder get very hot before, but that's about it...
One of my two TTS failures was wrapped in heatshink as well so that's a no no. One failure was a combo of high resistance fan + speed, the other was high resistance rolling stock + speed. Your Bachmann probably had a min of 1 amp threshold so while it might get hot it wouldn't blow. Thanks for sharing.
I've learned the hard way that decoders, particularly sound ones, need a chance to keep cool. If (for example) there's a chance that the decoder could contact anything metal in the loco and short out then the procedure is to put insulation on the metal parts of the loco not the decoder.
@@kiwitrainguy Yep, there's a temptation to wrap up the decoder in insulation to avoid shorts. At least one of my own decoder failures was doing this on an already stressed decoder.
Eugene. Thanks for this. I have connected up an Alpha meter since seeing your video. It was sitting in the box. With a recent purchase I was noticing that the loco was occasionally slowing and then speeding up again. When checking with the meter I see current variability and some spiking up to 0.6amps. What ever it is, intermittent behaviour means sometimes it runs fine in a range of 0.1 to 0.2 amps. Stop the loco and restart and then the variability can start again. Intermittent faults always difficult to diagnose. Any ideas before I sne it back?
Recorded the CV range, then did a autotune. Small decrease in current but then it was running at half the speed of before. Returned the settings to previous. Clearly the DCC variables are trying to overcome an issue. The loco will be going back for an exchange or repair.
@@davew2452 You've done your bit Dave and you have some extra information to provide. Time to hand it off now. These kind of failures can be real time wasters unfortunately.
Excellent video but when looking at the alpha meter it shows volts and amps , so what would we be looking for on the amps rating as a maximum . Cheers.........Peter
Thanks Peter. Assuming the voltage stays in 14.5V-15.5V range then the amps is the focus. If the voltage figure goes out of kilter, you have problem with your DCC controller and you're in a bad place!
Would double heading reduce the draw on the motor compared to a single loco. i.e a single class 37 sound pulling 10 wagons compared to two class 37s pulling the same train?
If you can speed match the locos pretty closely it certainly should help a lot. I have to admit I've only double headed for prototypical/cosmetic reasons rather than addressing load. Which decoders and which locos will deliver the best results and maximise the pulling capacity is a big question. The running resistance of those wagons and whether inclines are involved are important questions. If you have a need to cater for both, my starting point would be to avoid TTS decoders altogether even if double heading, Would then recommend doing some searches on both UA-cam and Google on double heading including your preferred decoder if you have one. I would definitely prefer double heading to top & tale if load is a consideration. A single Bachmann or Accurascale Class 37 with a factory fitted decoder should be able to handle 10 high resistance wagons with a degree of incline as well and would be preferable to two Railroad Class 37s for example. Two Bachmann or Accurascale Class 37s should be able to handle about anything a typical 00 gauge modeler would throw at them.
@@EuviRail well im doing both n scale and oo. In n scale i'm doing big grades with my american locos so i was just wondering if having multiple units would reduce the strain on inclines. With my oo layout my concern was more so the intial pulling of my accurascale hoppers with resin loads and im trying to prototype some of the heavy iron ore trains to scunthrope and ravenscriag. Since they are quite weighty.
From my experiences. I cannot recommend anything from DCC Concepts/Gaugemaster or anyone that uses the DCC Concepts decoders on their brand. I did a video of this and when I used a DCC Concepts Next 18 on my ScaleTrains Tier 4 GEVO. It went bang! It was luck that it didn't torch my model otherwise I would have had to get another one. The best ones however for quality and robustness are ESU, Dapol and Digitrax. I do N scale but I know Dapol do make a 21pin chip. Digitrax also are worth a try and they are made in the United States. I tried the Hornby HM7000 and I really do dislike them to the point I sold it off and replaced mine with another Dapol. Also the Next18 TXS chips are too fat for most N scale models but it will "just" fit into wide body models like the Class 60 and the Class 47 but only just, They are noisy too! Lenz, Dapol, ESU and Digitrax may cost more than the god awful DCC concepts decoders but they are less likely to go bang and risk torching your locomotive. All the best Peter.
Thanks for sharing Peter. Yeah, the NEXT18 TXSs won't work due to the extra antenna space. I don't have experience with DCC Concepts decoders so thanks for the warning! It's well worth paying the extra if there is any risk of burnout.
Hi Mista, I have no idea as to the Dapol Class 08 current draw I'm afraid. If you have an Alpha Meter I would install a higher power rated non sound decoder first and use it to characterise the loco's power draw starting from the stationary power. I've seen it mentioned that the Dapol Class 8 has separate decoders for the motor and sound? If this is the case you should have no issue.
Hi, from the decoders I've used the main way to limit the power consumption would be to limit the max speed with CV5. It's the higher speeds that killed my two TTS decoders but obviously there are other factors. As per other input in the comments, the Sprog II DCC controller has a mechanism for applying current limited from the controller and this is another way of limiting the damage.
@@EuviRail hi eugene ,maybe, sorry didn't realise youtube would delete a link to a resettable fuse rated at 750ma to save the decoder from frying , great and informative video........tony
Some important additions coming through in the comments which I will collate and add to the description. Thanks to all contributors.
Another great information video 👍 Burning out a TTS decoder is bad enough but blowing an ESU loksound decoder is wallet breaking 😭
That's for sure John. There's also that sinking feeling that at the end of the day you were responsible for it.
@@EuviRail Yes it does hurt more because you can’t blame anyone but yourself 🤣🤣🤣
Another fascinating,well thought out and in depth presentation mate.Very useful, well done.
Thanks Peter
ESU decoders have the following current limits for their motor circuits:
Version 5 XL - 5 amps
Version 5 L - 3 amps
Version 5 loksound - 1.5 amps
Versions 3.5 & 4 loksound - 1.1 amps
Version 5 basic & Version 4 standard - 0.9 amps
Version 5 Micro & Nano - 0.75 amps
The basic and standard ones don't have sound but the Micro & Nano ones do. Micro & Nano are for N scale, XL & L are for 0, 1 and G scales.
- Dennis
Thanks for sharing.
Very useful video thanks. From the point of view of us steam loco fans I would add that sticking valve gear and poor wheel quartering can greatly affect decoder loading. Yes, I always keep an eye on my Alpha Meter!😁😁
Absolutely, steam locos have potentially more modes of increased load/failure due to this apart from not having a fan I guess.
A very interesting video Euvirail!!! Indeed very useful! Thanks for sharing this video. Cheers Onno.
Thanks Onno
Thanks so much for this excellent explanation of this often difficult to understand topic. Your explanation of what can go wrong (and why) is very clear and your suggestions for mitigation of these risks also very easy to understand. Many, many thanks.
You're welcome Adrian
Thank you Eugene for highlighting the power drawing element of decoders, choice and use, which many of us are understandably ignorant about, with potentially costly results!
I had a brand new Hornby HST which seemed to function OK on DC with the decoder blanking plate in, but immediately blew my new decoder when I tried to run it through DCC! I of course presumed it was a faulty new decoder out-of-the-box and as the Hornby TTS HST decoders come in twin packs I put the other one in, only for that to immediately blow too! Upon inspection/fault finding I discovered the loco circuit board on the part which housed the 8 pin female socket had blobby soldering on the underside, hidden from view, which was causing a short circuit across two pins. This was the fault. I re-soldered and tested the loco tentatively with a spare non sound DCC decoder and it was then working as it should. Explaining this to the retailer and trying to get a replacement HST TTS twin pack set of decoders from them proved to be challenging to say the least!
I had another TTS decoder fail when one of the train's wagons derailed and got trapped, effectively jamming the train in a stationary position. The loco's decoder must have assumed more current was required for the motor, needless to say, it blew.
Keep up the great work Eugene, your channel is a 'must view' for me. Regards, Julian.
Thanks Julian and Thanks for sharing your unfortunate experiences.
Hi Euan, You make some interesting observations. However, your decoder cannot be overloaded if your DCC command station is designed to cut out above a certain amperage. For example, if you have a Sprog II, that has a 1 amp PSU, and if you exceed this, then all the trains on your layout stop! The JMRI app tells you the current draw, and you can programme a specific loco not to exceed a specific Amperage, if you use a more powerful PSU. Thanks for uploading.
Thanks for that. The Sprog II looks like a useful piece of kit and a lot cheaper than other DCC options.
Very informative and very useful thank you for sharing 👍
Thanks Clive
That's a great flowchart for anybody doing DCC, this may well be the "go to" video for pain prevention. Not to mention the wallet. Well done.
Thanks Andy
Very nice summary
A really, really informative vid. Clearly explained and very helpful. I learnt a lot. Than you.
Thanks John
I've only ever had a couple of decoder failures, and in both cases were TTS decoders. One was caused by a dodgy solder joint on the board and the other was caused by excessive heat build up as it was wrapped in a Hornby standard issue heat shrink tube, maybe this could cause other decoders to blow? What do you think? The only other one i've had is a Bachmann 6 pin decoder get very hot before, but that's about it...
One of my two TTS failures was wrapped in heatshink as well so that's a no no. One failure was a combo of high resistance fan + speed, the other was high resistance rolling stock + speed. Your Bachmann probably had a min of 1 amp threshold so while it might get hot it wouldn't blow. Thanks for sharing.
I've learned the hard way that decoders, particularly sound ones, need a chance to keep cool.
If (for example) there's a chance that the decoder could contact anything metal in the loco and short out then the procedure is to put insulation on the metal parts of the loco not the decoder.
@@kiwitrainguy Yep, there's a temptation to wrap up the decoder in insulation to avoid shorts. At least one of my own decoder failures was doing this on an already stressed decoder.
Eugene. Thanks for this. I have connected up an Alpha meter since seeing your video. It was sitting in the box.
With a recent purchase I was noticing that the loco was occasionally slowing and then speeding up again. When checking with the meter I see current variability and some spiking up to 0.6amps. What ever it is, intermittent behaviour means sometimes it runs fine in a range of 0.1 to 0.2 amps. Stop the loco and restart and then the variability can start again. Intermittent faults always difficult to diagnose. Any ideas before I sne it back?
Hi Dave, if it's using an ESU decoder, check out the Autotune feature dccwiki.com/LokSound_Auto_Tune
If no joy with this it's a return.
@@EuviRail Thanks Eugene. Will give that a go.
Recorded the CV range, then did a autotune. Small decrease in current but then it was running at half the speed of before. Returned the settings to previous. Clearly the DCC variables are trying to overcome an issue. The loco will be going back for an exchange or repair.
@@davew2452 You've done your bit Dave and you have some extra information to provide. Time to hand it off now. These kind of failures can be real time wasters unfortunately.
Excellent video but when looking at the alpha meter it shows volts and amps , so what would we be looking for on the amps rating as a maximum . Cheers.........Peter
Thanks Peter. Assuming the voltage stays in 14.5V-15.5V range then the amps is the focus. If the voltage figure goes out of kilter, you have problem with your DCC controller and you're in a bad place!
Would double heading reduce the draw on the motor compared to a single loco. i.e a single class 37 sound pulling 10 wagons compared to two class 37s pulling the same train?
If you can speed match the locos pretty closely it certainly should help a lot. I have to admit I've only double headed for prototypical/cosmetic reasons rather than addressing load. Which decoders and which locos will deliver the best results and maximise the pulling capacity is a big question. The running resistance of those wagons and whether inclines are involved are important questions. If you have a need to cater for both, my starting point would be to avoid TTS decoders altogether even if double heading, Would then recommend doing some searches on both UA-cam and Google on double heading including your preferred decoder if you have one. I would definitely prefer double heading to top & tale if load is a consideration. A single Bachmann or Accurascale Class 37 with a factory fitted decoder should be able to handle 10 high resistance wagons with a degree of incline as well and would be preferable to two Railroad Class 37s for example. Two Bachmann or Accurascale Class 37s should be able to handle about anything a typical 00 gauge modeler would throw at them.
@@EuviRail well im doing both n scale and oo. In n scale i'm doing big grades with my american locos so i was just wondering if having multiple units would reduce the strain on inclines. With my oo layout my concern was more so the intial pulling of my accurascale hoppers with resin loads and im trying to prototype some of the heavy iron ore trains to scunthrope and ravenscriag. Since they are quite weighty.
An video thankyou for the tips and information brilliant thankyou again
Thanks Mark
From my experiences. I cannot recommend anything from DCC Concepts/Gaugemaster or anyone that uses the DCC Concepts decoders on their brand. I did a video of this and when I used a DCC Concepts Next 18 on my ScaleTrains Tier 4 GEVO. It went bang! It was luck that it didn't torch my model otherwise I would have had to get another one. The best ones however for quality and robustness are ESU, Dapol and Digitrax. I do N scale but I know Dapol do make a 21pin chip. Digitrax also are worth a try and they are made in the United States. I tried the Hornby HM7000 and I really do dislike them to the point I sold it off and replaced mine with another Dapol. Also the Next18 TXS chips are too fat for most N scale models but it will "just" fit into wide body models like the Class 60 and the Class 47 but only just, They are noisy too! Lenz, Dapol, ESU and Digitrax may cost more than the god awful DCC concepts decoders but they are less likely to go bang and risk torching your locomotive.
All the best
Peter.
Thanks for sharing Peter. Yeah, the NEXT18 TXSs won't work due to the extra antenna space. I don't have experience with DCC Concepts decoders so thanks for the warning! It's well worth paying the extra if there is any risk of burnout.
Would the TXS decoder survive in a Dapol 0 gauge Class 08?
Hi Mista, I have no idea as to the Dapol Class 08 current draw I'm afraid. If you have an Alpha Meter I would install a higher power rated non sound decoder first and use it to characterise the loco's power draw starting from the stationary power. I've seen it mentioned that the Dapol Class 8 has separate decoders for the motor and sound? If this is the case you should have no issue.
hi great video just one question does changing cv,s affect these values at all for example lowering voltage limits etc
Hi, from the decoders I've used the main way to limit the power consumption would be to limit the max speed with CV5. It's the higher speeds that killed my two TTS decoders but obviously there are other factors. As per other input in the comments, the Sprog II DCC controller has a mechanism for applying current limited from the controller and this is another way of limiting the damage.
is there any reason you keep deleting my message ?
I just haven't seen it. It's not in my Held for Review folder either. Is there a link or something in it that UA-cam might be getting upset about?
@@EuviRail hi eugene ,maybe, sorry didn't realise youtube would delete a link to a resettable fuse rated at 750ma to save the decoder from frying , great and informative video........tony