Chopin, Scherzo opus 31: Unique evocation of nature when played in early 19th c. tradition
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- Опубліковано 4 лис 2018
- This Chopin Scherzo in B flat Minor, opus 31, in a tempo that reflects more the practice of the early 19th century than the late 19th century approach that we today became attached (and used) to, opens a world full of the most unexpected and touching harmonies, following in a kind of timing to constantly surprise the listener. I hope you'll be able to just sit down, forget all references to standard mainstream performances, close your eyes and passively wait where this epic Scherzo story leads you to. You for sure will be taken on a tour of pure evocation of nature, starting off with huge clouds, announcing a spring storm, coming closer to you over the endless fields full of colorful spring flowers, with butterflies in the most exotic colors painting constant new scenes leaving you wondering how on earth one man could put so much beauty in 15 minutes of your life..
All to say... this is a recording I made way back in 2001, and still today I believe I would have a hard time bringing this piece back to its level it had at the time. I'm kind of... proud of my younger "me" :-).
There is a follow-up story to this, that I'll give you on Wednesday (7.11.2018)
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6:37 Is the most incredible part. When played fast you do not notice the changes in harmony. This part is amazing.
That's also the part where the performances/recordings of most of the famous names of the last 100 years mysteriously do a significant jump in tempo, despite no indication in the score for this.
Equally as significant is the previous section, "espressivo", at 6:09. Because "musicians" intend to play the 6:37 bit so excessively fast, they play the espressivo section far too quickly in my opinion, in order to avoid too significant a jump in tempo. Honestly, I think even Wim plays the espressivo section too quickly (although I believe he recorded this many years ago and would probably have a different mindset now).
Thanks Robert
Agreed! Ever since I heard a recording of Garrick Ohlsson also playing this part slower (in his complete Chopin recordings on CD ... I can't seem to find him playing it here on UA-cam), other pianists just seem to be rushing through the best part. Thank you for posting this interpretation.
Wow! You are not wrong. Delightful.
Presto!
Not being a virtuoso, I always played Chopin at such tempi as this, and thus really enjoyed all the beautiful harmonies and colour that get lost at the so-called 'proper' speeds.
As that music was not written for the top virtuoso of 2020!
I've been playing this scherzo for almost 20 years and I appreciate this recording very much. A faster tempo was always the demand of my teachers. I heard so many things I've simply ignored for a very long time here. Excited to slow it down and rediscover it.
Great!
Presto!
This is remarkable example how tempo can make or break a piece. This a story full of emotions. Deeply moving. For me Chopin has been a trickster with a handful of very beautiful Nocturnes and memorable Etudes. Not anymore. Every piece you've played has been absolutely brilliant at double beat tempo. Thank you.
Thanks!
Wim, this is a very moving performance. I am not sure what I believe about your tempo theories, but I am always willing to listen and learn from you. Thank you.
Thanks David
As Keats said, "Axioms in philosophy are not axioms until they are proved upon our pulses." Whatever healthy doubts we might have about the WBT, I feel like this performance certainly "proves upon my pulses". It is a grand interpretation which brings out many fascinating ideas which are passed over in any other performance I've heard.
It really reflects the romanticism of Chopin
thank you Slu!
And you really hear the dance-like themes better.
This brings so many memories. So beautiful!
Very nice, its nice to wake up to Chopin.
Chopin, a joy to hear it played so clearly while so lyrically Romantic. Thank you Wim! Well done.
Thanks!
This is honestly the best recording of the scherzo I’ve ever heard - the harmonies are truly beautiful and touching when one takes the time to listen to each note.
thank you Matthew!
Great recording Wim.you HAVE to pick up Alan walkers new Chopin biography released this week...It's the single best thing I've ever read about Chopin.
AND the melodies are much better played at a relaxed tempo.
Mister Winters, you made me like Chopin again.
Have you, at some point, stopped liking?
Wim,
I went from having played for about 2 months with a local piano teacher in "little" Lancaster, New York, to an audition with the great Mr. Livingston Gearhart at the University of New York at Buffalo at the age of 15. He wasn't accepting new students because he was retiring; however, he had me audition with Ms. Anne Moot who got me to concert level in one year. There was more to follow ... but I mention this because only two pieces of any great importance have ever made me sob: The Chopin Ballade in G minor, and now THIS ONE! My first tearing episode got me the audition with Mr. Gearhart, which is why I mention that something really big is now on the horizon.
Your playing is impeccable, Wim!!!
Thank you for your channel. Thank you.
Tom
Thomas Hughes wow! It sounds like you have the sensitivity and responsiveness to make a great artist and communicator of this piece. Only some classical pieces can touch the deepest, most sensitive and personal places of an artist’s soul, but getting to the level of technical skill necessary to communicate that to others in a meaningful way can take many years of practice with some “leaving fallow” the piece st times, to return to it with renewed perspective and appreciation. Much luck to you in the years ahead!!
@@dougr.2398 Thank you, Doug.
thanks for sharing Tom!
I also cried listening to Wim's performance. And this hasn't happened to me in years. I stopped playing at 17 due to complications in my life. Now at 64 I'm studying again. Working on Etude 10-12. I think I will work on the Scherzo next. At this tempo I can still play Chopin. Mr. Wim has been a great inspiration to me. Thanks for your narrative. Good luck and good health to you.
I kinda recognize some of the melodies in this piece, so I think i might have heard it before ... But this performance is just on point Wim! The Tempo just feels right and you can hear all of the incredibly beautiful harmony changes.
As often with your performances I can't imagine this piece being played faster that just wouldn't sound right! Give yourself a pat on the back for this recording Wim ;)
Edit: Just listened to Zimerman's performance, whom I used to admire for his Chopin performances ... seriously ... that tempo sounds so ridiculous and after the key change at 5:00 he slows down to your exact tempo Wim which doesn't fit within his performance!! From 6:10 until 6:38 he speeds up a little and after that he is back to his ridiculous tempo ....
Don't get me wrong his performance is incredibly virtuosic and he has a beautiful tone, but after listening to Wim's it simply sounds ridiculous!
Thanks Stefan for sharing your thoughts. It's true also for me, once you are on the 'other side' it is hard if even possible to return, even whit great artists like Zimmerman
make fantasie impromptu at historical tempo.
This is truly amazing! My great grandpa actually was alive when the great tempo change of the 1800's happened. He said that suddenly everyone started playing double tempo for no reason and everything sounded so much worse. Hes actually a big supporter for you and we are actually celebrating his 160th birthday today. Thanks and all the love!
Hahaha
Time don't Exist.
To be honest, I was about to leave the computer, but I have to listen to the end, I just have to...
That was literally breathtaking, there's an authority in the music that just demands your atention.
Great!
I'm admiring the resonant tone of the instrument, the recording, and the performance that is allowed by this tempo in this particular acoustical environment. Exquisite. I also imagine elegant ballroom dancing; after all, it IS a waltz. As commented previously, I also can't leave this performance--not what I came to my computer for. Bravo Maestro und Herr Professor.
Beautiful. It's like I'm hearing it for the first time. Brilliant!
Chopin as you've never heard him before! This took me out of an unpleasant inner dialog triggered by a family visit. I shall listen again when in a more composed state of mind to gather up some more of the magic of this piece. . . . I can hardly imagine it at twice the speed. And following your advice, I shall not even try. . . . I am so proud to be a sponsor even at my meager pensioners rate of support.
Thanks Larry, so thankful for your support!
I've listened to this performance a few times now at various times and each time I listen I hear something new. It's like taking a trip down a familiar road, but discovering things along the way you never noticed before.
Yes, this is one of those familiar pieces. When I was young, I wore out my dad's 8-track tapes of Arthur Rubenstein performances of Chopin Ballades, Waltzes, and Scherzi. This was a performance which I tried to imitate very badly when I learned the piece so many years ago. My teacher found out one day when she walked into the studio and I was playing. She had a fit and we had some words. I continued to work on it in secret and struggled all the way through. It was quite advanced for me at the time, and also I was playing too fast.
With that said, I may revisit this Scherzo at some point in time but take it again at a much more reasonable speed. There are so many highlights and contrasts along the way that get lost when speeding along at freeway speeds.
Thanks for sharing John, we must call soon again
@@AuthenticSound Yes. That would be great. When things aren't so busy for you. :-)
Wow, another one I just had to listen to all the way thru. Thanks
Thanks Steven
This performance made me speechless.
amazing, beautiful, expansive, brilliant
thank you!
The bravura character is still there, but with much more beauty. An ear opener!
Thanks Hans-Martin!
In modern performance the triplets and eighth notes are played like ornamentation; fioritura I think is the word. It's nice to hear them played out to their full value. This is a remarkable work, it can tolerate many different interpretations. You were pretty good in your youth! I'm guessing you were slightly younger than Chopin was when he wrote it. Doubtless you could whip this out today with minimal prep. When it's in your fingers like it was in 2001, it doesn't disappear. I'll probably never play this -- life is too short -- but if I do try it, I'll keep your performance in mind.
Wow. I've never heard anything like this before. Just Wow. I'm nearly speechless.
Thanks!
It is beautiful! Finally the true Chopin!
Bravo yet again Wim! I have played this before at fast tempo, but hearing you playing much slower I hear so many nuance harmonies lost to me! I will pick this piece up again and play it slower and try to incorporate these new findings! The A major section especially resonated with me. Thank you for the upload! Hopefully the g minor ballade will be next!
Hear! Hear! on the Ballade! I am particularly interested in the cut-time "finale" ... WOW! Don't touch that dial! :D
Thanks!
Dank voor de mooie en 'onthullende' uitvoering, Wim.
Dank je voor het luisteren!
When the wave-like figure appeared in the left hand, that's when I became convinced.
Thanks you so much! This clears the mind of all this virtuoso clutter, one has in mind coming from listening (and playing) this amazing piece in a fast-forward-like tempo all the time..... In this sort of "slow?" tempo my mind can follow, my heart and voice can sing along! It´s so beautiful.
thank you for this beautiful recording
BRAVO!! Great Study rendition!! Nature? The lyrical fluidity of this piece, centrally, contrasting with the sudden “fits & starts” of the moody introduction evokes some natural imagery, but to this listener, evokes more the nature of the artist.... depressive and oppressed or oppressive but with a central appreciation and love of life. The slower tempo offers none of the (fever?) pitched excitement of a masterfully expert rendition but is masterful in its accuracy and attention to notewise detail. This enables time for some reflection on the overall structure as well as the dynamics and balance of the hands and harmony that contains and reflects the melodic structure. I particularly noted the double stemmed notes in the left hand and wondered if M. Chopin is simply drawing attention to the potential emphasis or meaning given to these notes (they certainly are not intended to be played by both (or the opposite) hands, as some inverted relative stems might indicate in other composers compositions) or if his intention is only as a “note” for the performer, a secret communication between composer and performer, as if to say “here I am...give me special attention, if you wish”..... anyone have any ideas about that?
this is now by far my favorite interpretation of this piece or perhaps of them all
Thanks!
This is VERY good. Great playing, and the tempo is great IMHO
I've been musically blind until now!
This is Wims way of saying. “You guys still dont believe me?”. If you can do maybe some of Chopins nocturnes people can wake up a little bit.
Jimmy Alderson You can talk on, you know. But the feeling of speed really did change over the years. The first practical steam train in 1807 only reached speeds of 10km/h! 0.62 mph! And people thought that was really fast. In 2007 there was a train that went 574.8 km/u! 357.2 mph! So for them the melodies just sounded very normal. That’s why there was a huge clash between show-offs that played too fast and real musicians/composers that played for the music, not for the show. For example, Brahms, Liszt, Chopin, Alkan... ect.
I did not know the piece before. But having heard some other recordings now, I can't even imagine it to be more speaking, personal and moving than here. Thank you for the wonderful video, I am glad to have heard the Scherzo in this version for the first time. I’m deeply impressed.
Having just finished listening: as we say in American English, "The end justifies the means," meaning, Chopin's climax is all the more powerful at this tempo. Even though I can't play, I so much enjoy your performances and teaching, Herr Maestro et Professor.
thanks Robert
I imagine Otto Klemperer would have played it at this tempo.
or Werner Klemperer even.
This is one of my favorite pieces overall
Finally I can hear Chopinestic music without getting my brain distracted by lightning-speed notes, Thank you Mr. Whim for this beautiful interpretation.
thank you for listening!
!!!AMAZING!!! 💐
Hi Wim
It is like usual a very beautiful rendition of that masterpiece.
I played this when I was in Conservatoire myself. Such a beautiful piece.
I love your rendition as it bring a lot of harmony change and explore phrases more deeply. Just amazingly musical!
However, I "agree" with must of your rendition of pieces, some that I played myself with a different view than yours, which is always wonderful to hear somebody with a different view than yours, I think that some of the part of this piece require a faster tempo.
Now, I guess that a lot of people would jump on me saying: "what is the point of playing as fast as you can?!? You just destroying the piece and all those wonderful harmony changes!", and I just want to clarify that when I said faster I don't say as fast as you can.
I think about those beautiful "arabesque" in this Scherzo.
I strongly believe that in Chopin's music and he is not the only composer to do so, some of the different registers are also dramatic effect than a perfect phrasing.
I'm thinking also about those tensions resolutions in the beginning that needs probably a faster resolution to keep the agitators aspect.
But this is purely personal taste if course. I think that a lot of modern pianist play that piece so fast that the triplets sounds like ornaments and obviously it is not the goal either!
Anyway, I prefer this rendition to some of the race horse that I can hear sometimes, that doesn't put Chopin's wonderful mind in the front but the pianist!
+
I’ve never heard this movement before, but everything just sounds right. I just went and listened to a couple modern performances of the piece and it sounds off, like it’s played as fast as they possibly can play it while hitting all the notes. This shows the romanticism of Chopin more than any performance I’ve heard of this.
Excellent as always.
Also, Wim, I’m performing BWV 861 on the clavichord this weekend (with a microphone of course) and I’ve noticed you never really use vibrato on the clavichord, is that simply because Bach would not have used vibrato on the clavichord? Or is your clavichord different so it’s not possible? I’m very new to the clavichord but one was donated to our organ program at Iowa State University so I’m playing it at the end of our organ concert on the 10th and I was wondering if I should use vibrato on some of the longer notes and mainly at the very end of the prelude where it ends on the B natural and most of the other sounds have died off.
I’d love to learn more about the clavichord and how it was meant to be played although I’m aware even in its hayday it was mostly a practice instrument.
Bebung as it's called is one of those things that can be over used and usually is like those opera singers that have to add vibrato to every phrase.
There are other reasons too including the music style played on the larger unfretted instruments, such as Wim's and my own. Bebung also was not commonly used due to stiffer strings and is almost unnoticeable. This is what I was told when I inquired about it a few years go with the guy that built my instrument.
Good luck with your recital and be sure to get used to the instrument. A clavichord is much different, and more difficult to play than any other keyboard instrument and unexpected things can happen if your technique isn't good. You need to play solidly and distinctly, but very relaxed. Your hands, arms and wrists need to be extremely relaxed, and you need to work with arm weight with no stiffness at all anywhere including your shoulders and neck.
If you play stiffly or incorrectly, you'll end up with the clunking sound, which a friend of mine refers to as the sound of a bag of mosquitoes! He was quite surprised how difficult it was to produce a good sound and it took him a bit to get used to the instrument. He's quite an accomplished harpsichordist and organist, and now has a nice modern replica instrument in his "collection of keyboard instruments."
@@Clavichordist I remember being 16 years of age, and a UCSB music student (post graduate) I bumped into at the Renaissance Music Shop in the El Paseo in Santa Barbara referred to the clavichord as a box of flies (mosquito is derivation of the Spanish word for little flies). At that time, I had no access to a clavichord (still haven't), but I intuitively replied, "If this remark is from your personal experience with the instrument, then you were playing it wrong. Check out Griepenkerl's forward to the his edition of J S Bach's organ music. Griepenkerl relates J S Bach's method of playing the keyboard which Forkel taught Griepenkerl after Wilhelm Friedeman Bach taught Forkel." He was surprised by my comment. I've found some harpsichordist can be "pounders;" or clunkers as you described them, and your comments as to relaxation is spot on.
L S. C P E Bach noted that notes (especially longer tied notes) which held should be (played again) struck again. I have seen notes that have ties over measures in modern editions, did not contain the ties in a number of manuscripts (too many to cite). If J S Bach intended for the notes to be silent he wouldn't have written them with longer note values tied to longer note values. I might suggest the following, as you are in the organ program. Play the Eb major Prelude, and the complete BWV 861 on an organ several times on the manuals. It might change your manner of playing when the tones haven't died away. It did in my case when I played the works on harpsichord or piano, I found I couldn't live without the harmonies that were omitted if the notes weren't restruck.
There were 18th century copies of WTC bk 2 which had the word pedal in the bass line (played upon the pedal board) in some the preludes and fugues. The world Clavier pre 1722 (when J S Bach arranged and collected adapted earlier works) had not acquired its late 18th century equivalency of clavichord.
I appreciate both of your input and I will take what you have said to heart, however my main question is would it be “sacreligious” to use vibrato on the last B natural in the Prelude in the 861?
It’s not something I would be doing a lot of, however most people haven’t heard of the instrument and my goal is to demonstrate what it’s capable of, and I wanted to demonstrate, at least a little bit, the vibrato you can use on the fretted Clavichord.
I have been practicing on it a decent amount, and what you said about clunking is not my style. I learned early on with the harpsichord and organ that you only need to press as hard as the pressure it takes to make the note play. Any harder is wasted energy.
So I play with a volume loud enough to be picked up with a mic at the loudest, and barely audible at a pianissimo.
I’m not claiming to be an expert, but the dynamic range, although it’s whole range is quiet, is quite large due to its fretted design.
I also noticed I have to use a more French style fingering to make it comfortable to play (well, as far as organ and harpsichord go it’s French, it’s probably standard in clavichord use) where doing scales you have to go 2-3-2-3 or 3-4-3-4 instead of 1-2-3-4 to avoid hitting the same note twice. It’s quite a learning experience for me and I’m excited to see what else I’ll learn on it.
@@Renshen1957
That's an interesting comment on the flies/mosquitoes. My friend said that on his own without any other references. In his collection of instruments, it seems we tend to do that, he also has a beautiful 1790 Broadwood square piano. He said that was terribly difficult to play too because of the lightness of the early English action. With his clunky clavichord playing and inability to control the light action, thinking about it now makes me wonder if this is related to his heavy harpsichord and organ technique.
"If this remark is from your personal experience with the instrument, then you were playing it wrong. Check out Griepenkerl's forward to the his edition of J S Bach's organ music. Griepenkerl relates J S Bach's method of playing the keyboard which Forkel taught Griepenkerl after Wilhelm Friedeman Bach taught Forkel."
I read that introduction, translated into English of course. It was very enlightening and makes a lot of sense including finger and hand position. The clavichord, having no action to speak of other than a key-fulcrum relationship with the strings, requires the fingers to be on the front of the keys. If one places the fingers inwards, as we do on the modern piano, we will produce an inconsistent tone.
If there's any stiffness anywhere, the tone is inconsistent as well. It's all about striking that perfect balance point on the key to ensure the perfect tone. Wim has truly amazing clavichord technique because he is able to maintain both the relaxation and the hand position.
If you notice this technique carried forward to the early pianos. I thought it was a habit carried over from the clavichord, but it is not as I found out when I played a gorgeous sounding pianoforte from 1790. The sound was that of a clavichord but louder. The music of Mozart and his contemporaries floats about the air rather than hitting the listener in the head. After playing that piano, and others in the collection, I felt as if the modern pianos do this music an injustice because they are so removed from their roots.
Anyway. Wim's performance here is truly amazing. I listened to it again as I replied. :-)
6:37 sounds so perfect at this tempo, thank you for this wonderful recording!
BRAVO! Standing ovation! Deafening applause! Cries of encore!
Thanks!
Incredible how much this Melody combine with an imaginated Landscapes a sequences of Holly nature
I'm deeply touched by your performance.
This recording is very interesting. I must say it's captivating at this tempo.
It's wonderful...
So beautiful.
Thank you! 😊
I never liked this piece before I heard you play it. Great performance
You keep posting pieces that I'm learning! First the revolutionary etude and now this one :) Can you recommend what tempo to play Chopin's etude op 25 no 2? I know you are releasing this information gradually, but I've finished learning it and would like to know.
I'll see what I can do with Chopin, much focus is on Beethoven now! But you can take his own MM, which can be the prime guide for you
Do you plan on publishing an academic paper of these tempo works or so have you already done so?
Hi John, I work closely together with Lorenz Gadient who already published a first book at the famous publisher Katzbichler. Here is a playlist with interviews with him: ua-cam.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWU1zXuo_Qx-YrCCtaJcBiPO.html
Cool daddy!!! 😜😸💥❣
When your daughter says "Cool daddy!!!" - the rest blurs.
These are the greatest compliments a man can ever receive, Wim!
The time this piece was written, would you call it early 19th century? In other words, is this the intended tempo of Chopin? I'm glad for this recording as it offers some "time to reflect" about the piece, and I think overall it is a nice reference point in terms of tempo. I would play some parts a little faster though (definitely not as quick as modern performances though). Anyway thanks, it was really nice to listen to it. Might open up my book of scherzos and give it a shot myself.
It was a calculated guess back in 2001, tomorrow I'll have some new additional thoughts on it
Thank you! I was so hoping you would record the Scherzo's. Any chance of Op.20 in the near future?
I guess Chopin will always be close
What an incredible performance to start my day off with. I listened to it twice through: with eyes closed and reading the score.
The voices really sing in this performances, and they are doing so on top of such delicious harmonies.
You've turned a piece of sparkling joy contrasting with flaming passion into the pendantic ruminations of a dead soul. Fail.
This channel should be called "playing at slow tempi".
with the addition: 'where it is fun to read stupid comments once in a while as well'.
True!
beautiful
Thank you! 😊
Bravo!
Thanks!
Thank you Wim! I have been tormented by all kinds of social noise and fast music based on 440hz recently, and I feel that I am becoming more and more impatient. However, this real expression of Chopin's Scherzo is that I immediately calm down and I'm crying now. Thanks again for bringing this to us!
This makes me want to practice Chopin.
Looking forward to Wednesday’s video! Did I tell you I’ve been given an INCREDIBLE opportunity to practice on a Bösendoerfer instrument?
You must fill us in on the pleasure of practicing on that piano. Bösendorfer pianos are like dark luscious pieces of chocolate. They are a lot smoother and thicker sounding than a Steinway or others which are much crisper sounding. Out of the 24 antiques at the Frederick Collection, I prefer the 1830 Bösendorfer out of nearly all of them. :-)
I too! I have been looking for information on 3/4 and 6/8 since the "common time" "tempo ordinario" vids!!!
I have never played a B. I have played a magnificent Steinway in Texas. WOW! to you!
Thomas Hughes as I have 4 dogs & an ongoing lawsuit with my city (not at all directly about them) practice time will be all the more precious for being difficult to achieve....
John Citron this will be a (practically) brand new piano
@@dougr.2398 YIKES! My family lives in Nacogdoches, but I hang my hat in Mexico! In fact, it's 22:10 local, and I'm blaring Wim's Scherzo right now with the windows open. HAHA!!! The neighbours - IF they're listening at all - will tell me tomorrow morning that the music I was playing was gorgeous! I really love Mexico! No law suits here. :D
Thank goodness for music that doesn’t sound like someone is in a rush. I find some of the emphasised chords could be played more gently and not with the feeling like a hammer has fallen. Let the sonorous notes ring.
Thanks for this. I have always HATED this particular Scherzo precisely because it is always played by pianists as though it were nothing more than a showpiece for virtuosity, devoid of any musicality. It comes off sounding frenetic and misses all the gorgeous harmonies, which no one seems to care about.
great to read Randy, thanks for sharing!
Then you're listening to the wrong pianists. An actual good performance either plays the piece musically well at a high tempo due to the player being very good (Krystian Zimerman), or slows down in order to achieve this (Sokolov often does this, for example on Schubert's impromptu op 90 no 2)
Real melancholy and purity is evidently clear in this version which is Chopin's real style ! However, I would suggest a more Rubato so it can be closer to the Chopin historic heritage passed on by taped records of Chopin's contemporaries and their contemporaries. Thanks and please more of Chopin's pieces !
Wim previously stated that virtually anyone that heard Chopin said that he played strict on tempo. He read letters from his pupils. Therefore today we imagine Chopin playing with much Rubato, however he did not play that way.
@@charlesgaskell5899 OK, but I was telling him that Chopin did not use over Rubato. I wasn't saying that there is no Rubato here.
@@charlesgaskell5899 No worries
rober Acevedo
Many contemporaries recorded their POVs on how Chopin played the piano. Chopin was strict on tempo YES, but only for students and not when he himself played. What the composers write on the page and what they actually do in performance rarely have anything to do with each other. Let me quote the following:
"IN Mr. Henry T. Finck’s volume on Success in Music and How It Is Won, there is a chapter on “Tempo Rubato,” written by Paderewski. The eminent pianist quotes the well known advice Chopin is said to have given his pupils, namely, to play freely with the right hand, but to keep time with the left. Paderewski labors to show that in many of Chopin’s pieces the left hand did not play the part of a conductor, but “mostly that of a prima donna ;” and, as supplementing this, he repeats the old story that in the opinion of some of his contemporaries, Chopin really could not play in time. THE FOE OF THE METRONOME.". The point is worth looking into. Of course, to begin with, one must differentiate between tempo rubato and an inherent inability to “keep time." [Chopin and the Tempo Rubato, BY J. CUTHBERT HADDEN]
It's therefore important to approach Chopin's pieces with Rubato. I'm not saying Wim's versions are bad at all, in fact I'm a fan of Wim's work. It's a nutshell tip only to go Rubato to sound more Chopinic than colourless robotic playing. It's when written notes and sound records meet up to show how Chopin (really) :/ played.
With Due Respect
@@L4AH4N1889 Of course Chopin should be played with Rubato. I have also heard of the left hand on tempo and the right playing freely. But in any case, Chopin should be played at time, but from time to time with a certain amount of Rubato.
Chopin wasn't a robot, but both Chopin and Liszt agreed that pieces should not be far from the tempo. It does not mean that there is no Rubato when playing them of course.
And yes, Wim's interpretation is very impressive. I like very much.
I don’t know if you are right about the tempo, Wim. But damn, it is a pleasure to hear you play. Another beautiful interpretation.
You should genuinely release an cd with this and the chopin etudes played at the right tempo. This is amazing. Why didnt you upload this earlier?
It takes some courage to stand the heat... I guess age helps :-).
Myself and many others admire you for it. Myself and many others have already been rescued from the opressive, elitist, exclusivist approach to performance, and have gained hope that this art is for all.
@@surgeeo1406 I agree. This performance is amazing and it's the best performance of this Scherzo on youtube. I saw this piece live in Krakow but the pianist played it very fast so it just sounded like Liszt piece. Here, It sounds much better.
"Pianopat" claims that Chopin was not a double beat composer. Is he right or wrong?
I had forgotten what a rush of positive energy this piece could resonate in me. There is a vitality - I guess it could be called an affirmation of the strength and joy within the human spirit. Maybe I am getting too poetic, but one can’t hear this piece and remain unmoved.
Well done Wim. One of the greatest absurdities of the Chopin "tradition" is the tempo of typical performances of each Scherzo. I've been thinking of doing a blog post or something of the title "The lost art of the Chopin scherzo". It's extraordinary that the tradition has become to play the piece at effectively 300+ beats per minute. That's not music. The whole point of musical notation is that it is readable. 3/4 time at 300 BPM is nonsensical.
There are so many clear signs all over this Scherzo, and also with Scherzo No.3, that it should be played at around 160 BPM, and then reducing to 110-130 for the "sostenuto" section.
Thanks!
Nice practice session.
Well, that's one way to ignore all the problems with today's perspective :-)
@@AuthenticSound I'm not ignoring anything, it does sound like a practice session compared to the tempo pianists usually choose.
Hi Wim! Played this piece roughly 4 years ago. Was a disaster, I tried to follow the tempo from Rubinstein's recording. After finding your recording, I've been inspired to play this piece slower. I'm currently trying to play it at your tempo, but I find myself speeding up to the tempo everyone else plays at. For example at the con anima section at 1:37, it's extremely hard for me to keep this "19th century style". I also notice you follow the pedal markings exactly as it is written. I tend to use my own pedaling for piano pieces and just completely disregard pedal markings from the score. At 10:58, I try to follow the pedal markings for the part where the bar starts with the chord gliss followed by eight notes and triplets, but it sounds really dry and awkward.
I also notice that the timbre of your piano in the recording has this "old" feeling to it, different the tone of a performance Steinway grand for example. Do you have any advice for reimagining pieces at a slower tempo? Also the grands I play doesn't have the "plink plank" tone as yours do in this recording. I'm not following your recording to replicate your style down to the last detail, but I find myself unable to play the Scherzo at your tempo, it sounds extremely awkward on a modern piano. Should I even bother with playing the Scherzo slower? Would love to hear any advice you have to give!
best practise for me in such cases of speeding up: clean the table, practice a few times with a metronome and play as dry as possible. Music will come back
AuthenticSound thanks for the advice!
I must admit it feels strange in the beginning, but once it gets going it's really inspiring.
Wim: regarding Beethoven and Czerny in particular, I have transcribed word for word sections from two lectures Schiff gave in 2006 about the Beethoven sonatas. Here are my notes. Hope that these will help shed more light on the subject.
you are serious having transcribed Schiff's lecture...?
@@AuthenticSound only the relevant sections where he talks about Czerny, tempos and Beethoven's metronome. Yes. I wrote it all out for us to consider.
Love it, love it. I have an injury to my right arm I believe caused by playing like a pro, I think If I played like this I would still be playing today. My teachers never once said slow down the tempo? I love the way you see music ain ALL it's stunning subtleties:)
there should be a way to legally prosecute yr teachers for that...
I have to say, this is an excellent study and practice speed, but so much excitement is missing from the bravura performances of my youthful exposure. As one ages, though, thé contemplative life becomes more attractivr
How would a college feel if I played this tempo or an audition?
you'd had to explain something...no option yet I'd say!
Exposition, part 1
0:02
0:33
1:03
1:20
2:17
Exposition, part 2
2:34
3:04
3:32
3:50
4:48
Development, part 1
5:04
5:31
6:09
6:38
Development, part 2
7:09
7:37
8:16
8:44
Development, part 3
9:24
9:41
10:07
10:35
Recapitulation
11:22
11:51
12:20
12:37
13:41
Coda
13:48
14:03
14:26
I also want to say that I mostly agree with your view of the tempo for the music of the past.
But, we have to keep in mind that the sheet printed is the view of the composer on a certain period of time. I'm sure that the composer itself wasn't playing all the time the same way, the exact same rendition.
It is like recording a live jazz interpretation of a standard. It is always the same on the recording but never really the same when played even by the same musicians. The sheet was the recording of the time.
It's today's "classical" musicians who play the same pieces the same way. Except for the exception, like Trifonov for exemple...
What's the historically accurate reason for skipping the Eb Minor harmony on the 2nd to last page? Was it not in the autograph or something like that?
No offence meant but it reads "Presto" and you play it at a Minuetto tempo...
Actually the scherzo has the same movement as the fast minuet (and the waltz).
“Another source is Beethoven’s favorite pupil, Carl Czerny, whom many of you will know through his terrible etudes. They are very useful but probably to learn scales and passages. Anyway, probably Czerny was a magnificent musician but contrary to many of my colleagues, I judge his witness opinions with great caution. He had left us two editions about the correct performance of Beethoven’s keyboard works, subscribing all the works with metronome marks and detailed instructions. These metronome marks are 20 years later completely different. I mean, which Czerny should I believe? “
[From the first lecture that Schiff gave concerning all the Beethoven sonatas. These lectures are archived both in UA-cam and on the Guardian website, which is where I have taken these notes. Here is the link.]
download.guardian.co.uk/sys-audio/Arts/Culture/2006/10/31/SonataFminorop2no1.mp3
Concerning the Hammerklavier sonata, opening bars and the troublesome tempo, Schiff says:
“Let me try to be more clear. This is the only sonata that we have Beethoven’s metronome marks. Now, the metronome is this silly ticking instrument that tries to tell you to play in time. But, as we said before, Beethoven was really concerned that he could no longer play, that he wanted to be sure that people played his music correctly. He gave metronome marks to this sonata, which are incredibly fast. To the first movement [Schiff plays the first few bars.] The minim equals 138 . It’s virtually unplayable. And everybody agrees that it is virtually unplayable. But people said that yes, it is unplayable because Beethoven’s metronome was wrong. And let’s ignore Beethoven’s metronome and play it like this: [Schiff plays it half the speed or close to it]. And that’s the way most of you know this sonata. Admit it! And you know, Beethoven writes “Allegro, tempo ordinario”. It’s “Alla Breva”. You count two in a bar. [He sings the two ways one could play the opening bars, one very fast the other half speed]. Even my great idol, Edwin Fischer writes in his lovely book about Beethoven Sonatas, that “….this metronome mark is completely wrong…”
Schiff then recounts a story that he (at that time) had very recently had the opportunity to turn on Beethoven’s own metronome and he said that it works!
Now Schiff says what is probably the most important point about Beethoven’s intended metronome markings for this piece. He says “Why I spend so much time on such detail like metronome marks…..is….metronome marks don’t make music. And Beethoven said that I give these metronome marks but they are actually valid for the first bar of the piece.” (As an aside, this is not 100% accurate, because the opening fan fair, played at a very fast speed is made up of more than one bar of music. The fan fair, I do believe covers at least two bars; but Schiff has made Beethoven’s point clear, I think. Schiff then plays the entire opening section at full tempo and it is very fast.
I am not sure that Schiff actually returns to a slower pace after the complete opening fan fair, as Beethoven as quoted by Schiff seems to indicate. He continues to play the opening section at full throttle. We are left wondering if Schiff has chosen a tempo that accurately mirrors Beethoven’s chosen metronome markings or not? The other issue that I have raised before is that Beethoven was at that time of composition, probably really functionally deaf. That might not have been such a big influence on his tempo choices because as a musical master he knew exactly what he intended in all his music and we should believe that his metronome markings are to be taken at face value.
The lecture on the Hammerklavier, part one, can be found here:
download.guardian.co.uk/sys-audio/Arts/Culture/2006/12/13/03-29_bflatmaj_op106.mp3
czerny was very consistent with his mm for Beethoven, also compared to moscheles but of course they were humans after all
@@AuthenticSound Schiff indicates otherwise and specifically says that Czery altered the metronome markings for Beethoven's works in his second edition. I take it that Schiff knows what he is talking about and so we should consider his point.
It's a misconception that composers know best what tempos are appropriate for their pieces. I like this performance by Wim Winters very much and think it proves that Chopin's compositions should be played much slower than what Chopin himself had in mind. Kullak was thinking along the same lines as me already in the late 19th century.
@@chlorinda4479 I think that it would be correct to say that 80 is much slower than 96. A little slower would be something like 90. But note that I didn't claim that Kullak wanted much slower tempos. What I said concerning him was something very vague. Furthermore, I don't think that this particular performance by mr. Winters is in half tempo of what you hear normally. My guess would be maybe 20 % slower, which would be a Kullak type of tempo reduction, but I haven't measured at all. A reduction of normal tempos with 50 % would be too great of a tempo reduction for my taste in many cases.
Actually if you count the individual beats of 3/4 you feel a presto beat.
Don't forget that the note value also determines speed. Considering that it doesn't feel like a presto, closer to an allegretto.
That's exactly true + the presto's at those days were not meant to be as fast as possible, they were a step further from allegro
@@classicalhero7 It's a very good point classicalhero7. An example of this would be Chopin Etude No.3; in 2/4 time, typical performances are like 30 BPM, but it needs to be that slow to deliver the stated 'lento'.
In the case of the Scherzos however, setting the 'presto' tempo based on note-values or character creates so many problems throughout the whole piece - so so many places where it's like "this really should not be played this quickly". In addition to that, what is very telling is what some people have said with regards this piece:
Schumann on the piece: "...so overflowing with tenderness, boldness, love and contempt". To me, that is far more appropriate at WIm's tempo.
With the opening 'sotto voce' section, Von Lenz (Chopin student) said: "For Chopin it was never questioning enough, never soft enough, never vaulted (tombe) enough. It must be a charnel-house."
A "charnel-house" (a chamber containing skeletons). That is very telling language. At the typical tempo of this piece, the opening just does not sound like a skeleton chamber. It sounds more like a race or a fight. At Wim's tempo here, all of a sudden one can be like "wow, now that sounds like a skeleton chamber".
So overall classicalher7, I would say that is seems like composers, or certainly Chopin, did not stick to a strict rule for setting the tempo with regards note-values or on the other hand sound character.
@@AuthenticSound I noticed that there are some triplet formations that are 12 notes per second ... I'd say that's a pretty good presto! :D
Besides which, the Italian word for "as fast as possible" is Prestissimo.
Well played!, would you be interested in recording some of the works of Carl Filtsch? , he was one of Chopins students, if you know him. Thank you for your answer.
Hi Raphael, thanks for the suggestion, I don't know his music have made a note of this!
Didn't you know about his music, or about his very short life?.
Presto!! Soon!! Quickly! Broaden your sight
Try 1 bpm per bar
yes! Play that :-)
Wow This interpretation is so unique, so sentimental. Thank you this recording!
Glad you enjoyed it!
So how do you know what tempo Chopin used for this piece? There's no metronome mark like in the Etudes, only the word "Presto"; how do you know the difference between "Presto" in the early 19th century and "Presto" nowadays?
That's an interesting question that at the time of the recording I wouldn"t have an answer for explicitly related to a MM. you can however reconstruct the context based on notation or similar pieces. Tomorrow I'll have a nice update on this.
What about Scherzo n.1? In Paderewski edition the tempo is h.=120!
That is an original Chopin mark btw. It is still 'fast' in whole beat
Interesting interpretation. I never heard this scherzo played in this tempo. I don’t like this scherzo played too fast. I actually liked it in this tempo that you played.
Please please play some of Chopin's Nocturnes
Chopin is coming next year as Beethoven is this year!
I've come across a few Chopin videos played at what seems approximately half the usual tempo, and I gather there is some theory, some evidence, behind this, but I haven't so far read enough detail on this to find it clear. I have to say that, musically, these half-tempo performances do not convince me, and do seem to drag; but one could argue (and I couldn't deny it at this point) that that may be merely because I have had a life-time of being used to the now-traditional tempi, and have built up a whole mental image of Chopin (or of any composer) based around them.
This theory seems to be saying we now play Chopin about twice as fast as we should. Does that apply to all composers of the era, or just Chopin? And just the fast pieces like Etudes and Scherzi, or also slow ones like the Nocturnes?
Whether I could get to like the slower tempi, even if I became intellectually convinced they were correct, I am far from sure about. But I am curious about this, and wonder if anyone who knows could please direct me to a clear explanation of this, and an idea of what the supporting evidence is. I have read bits here and there, but they weren't clear enough for me to understand. And there was a whole video which seemed to explain it, but it was in German, which I do not understand.
One explanation I read on another video went into complicated detail about whether a beat of a metronome should be counted as a "to and fro" swing (two audible ticks), or just a "to" or a "fro" (one tick) - but I couldn't quite follow the ins and outs of that; and, besides, it seemed irrelevant anyway, because if a piece has written on it (for example) "crotchet = 120", then that means you play at a tempo so that 120 crotchets' worth of the music lasts one minute. Metronome markings on music don't refer to a single or double tick on a metronome; they always refer to a specific note value like a crotchet or quaver or minim, etc. That doesn't seem to allow any room for ambiguity to me, assuming that you take the given marking as accurate. Given that, it didn't seem to me to matter whether you deemed the metronome's beat to be a full swing or just half a swing - what counts is the number of the specified note value in the printed music that fill one minute.
Can anyone please explain, or point me to a web page or document that explains it clearly?
Thank you.
in fact, restoring Chopin or contemporaries to what I believe was the historical context of tempi, does NOT mean we are gonna play half tempo compared to what is known today. We very seldom hear pieces performed in single beat. So, in both ways, when we take the MM serious, a correction needs to be done!
We have several hundreds if not thousand metronom marks from composers all across the 19th and sometimes even 20th century which are out of reach for any pianist no matter how skilled.This includes:Beethovens own marking,Chopins,Czernys markings for Beethoven sonatas,Hummels own markings,Schumanns and so on.The consensus in modern musicology is that:their metronoms were broken,they were striving for an unachievable ideal,they were joking or pianos at this time made it possible to perform in this outragous speeds.
The double beat theory says that there is a systematical error in how we read these metronom marks.
The metronom was used like older pendulum device.Crochet=120 would last two audible ticks,were every tick equals one eight note,since two eight note equal one crochet.I hope that is understandable because i am not an nativ english speaker.
@@AuthenticSound Well... a couple I came across were pretty close to half-speed; so those where what I was referring to there. Parts of this performance seem to be roughly half the tempo I usually hear; and I also came across a performance of the Etude Op. 10, no. 1 which was about half-speed. In fact, I think that video was the one where I encountered the discussion of metronomes I didn't really understand properly.
Did Chopin often provide metronome markings for his compositions? I'm sure I've seen them, but of course they could be added by some editor.
When you talk about a single beat in connection with this piece, are you talking about a crotchet or a dotted minim (a whole bar)? Technically a crotchet would be a beat, but at least in the faster tempo normally used now, probably the dotted minim would be perceived as the beat. Indeed, most passages in the Chopin Scherzi fall into 4-bar phrases, which would make the music sound like 4 compound beats in the bar - as if it were written in 12/8 time.
I think, more important than debating single/double-beat, is to learn about Tempo Ordinario. There is at least one video on this channel about it, but the basic concept is, the choice of note types, time signature, and the density of each music, already imply a narrow range of tempos for it, and the Metronome Marks bypass this system, for those who do not understand it. This is my current understanding, and I may be wrong.
@@kefka34 I would be interested to read more about this, as the views of the matter you give are not ones I have ever encountered. I must admit to having doubts about it.
What evidence is there, for instance, that composers would be joking when choosing their metronome markings? The idea does sound outlandish - which composer would risk misrepresenting their musical intentions for all time just for the sake of making a joke (not that I can see any joke in putting in deliberately misleading instructions, anyway)? And if we consider various composers, isn't it stretching things a bit to hypothesize that all their metronomes were broken? (I have heard that possibility only with Beethoven, but apparently it was uncertain with him.)
Outrageous speeds are a subjective matter of opinion: clearly some pianists can achieve them, so they might not be outrageous on that count, and not an "unachievable" ideal - and no-one ever said these were easy pieces to play. Outrageous as to musical effect? Again, subjective. Rightly or wrongly, I am accustomed to higher speeds in many pieces like the one on this page, and I do find the slower speed here dragging. The same with the Etude, Op. 10, no. 1 I mentioned before - if we can attach any significance to personal opinion about the speed, I find that the slower tempo reduces that Etude to resembling a student's mechanical exercise.
I still don't see the relevance of the double beat theory with two audible ticks - as I said before, the metronome markings in scores do not specify beats as so many ticks on the metronome; they simply refer to a specific note value like a crotchet, and say so many per minute? How is that ambiguous and so subjecting to being misinterpreted so drastically? 120 crotchets per minute (or whatever) is absolutely precise, so how can anyone get that wrong? 120 per minute is 120 per minute, and that's all there is to it. Given that, can you explain how the double beat theory affects that and changes the tempo?
If what you say is the consensus of modern musicology, then how come I have never heard even a hint of it in a life of interest in piano music?
Very dramatic and romantic piece, do you want to make a new Chopin recording on one of your new pianofortes?. You should deserve as much attention as an pianist as some Barenboim, or Lang Lang out there, as a pianist. Should I write in english, or in German?.
Thank you so much! I will do some Chopin on the pianofortes, but as for the Frenzel I struggling with tuning it, it is stable but o so sensitive, will make some videos about it
Ich vermute dass nicht viele Menschen hier können Deutsch verstehen. Es ist besser auf Englisch zu schreiben. Bist du Deutsche?
Ich verstehe Deutsch ganz gut, sprech es mit Fehler
rober Acevedo ja, ich bin Deutscher. Ich schrieb die Frage nur, weil ich mir unsicher war, weil ich einmal auf eine auf Deutsch gestellte Frage eine Antwort von ihm bekam, die zum Teil Deutsch & zum Teil Englisch war.
Danke, nun weiß ich Bescheid. Wissen Sie, ob Ihr neues Pianoforte noch vor 2019 fertig sein wird?, Ich bin gespannt....
Very beautiful performance, nice singing tone. However, I don't feel the tempo as "Presto" here... Of course, I'm used to faster tempi.
I'd agree. I could maybe call this 'allegro', but more likely 'andante', tbh.
I don't know if it should be played at modern tempo, but it could afford to be a touch faster and still retain the same feel.
our sense of presto has changed, back then it was a next step from allegro. Remember Saint-Saens writing early 20th c. that what was an allegro for his time, was a presto in Mozart/beethoven's time.
klop422 people walk much faster compared to times before. Back then it was all about elegance and nobility. It was european culture. NOT AMERICAN CULTURE! Fast cars fast like fast money fast work.
AuthenticSound agreed. They never had racecars back in the day ;) haha
@@jostephenz3260 As a Brit, I don't really listen to music with an American mindset.
That said, I didn't say that this was wrong either. I just said that this could afford to be played a touch faster while keeping the same feel. True, I'm conditioned to modern tempi, but another 2.5% won't harm anything.
I do enjoy the simple clarity. The musical effect is actually that I am a more patient listener now that the music is more patiently paced.
I'm kind of worried to start imagining Wagner in double-beat though- think of the 'Ring' Cycle!😖
I don't know but I can imagine Wagner did not undergo that strong effect of speeding up
For comparison with modern tempo playing (Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli):
ua-cam.com/video/bnwR25wNYY4/v-deo.html
Shocking, but you can see double beat is convincing and not twice as longer as single beat (though Michelangeli slows down a lot during some passages).
This can't really be called a double-beat tempo, since there's no metronome marking to compare against.
I found this on UA-cam: ua-cam.com/video/fcV3P6zS30Q/v-deo.html
Raoul Koczalski (1884-1948), piano (Chopin's Pleyel 1847)
Live recording from the concert celebrating the 138th anniversary of
Chopin's birth, 1948-02-21 (the Pompeian Hall, Belweder Palace, Warsaw)
@ Nocturne in D-flat major, Op. 27 No. 2
@ Waltz in E-flat major, Op. 18
@ Berceuse in D-flat major, Op. 57
And the following comments:
Michael McDowell
3 years ago
Liszt, Alkan, and the novelist Andre Gide all made remarks to the effect that Chopin is usually played too fast and too loud, and playing like this tends to give those remarks credence.
And
Philippe Fritsch
2 years ago
Who ever had a chance to hear a Pleyel instrument of that period in its original state (hammer heads, felt etc), will be impressed by the beauty, flexibility and profoundness of timbre. Treble is as clear and singing as the bass, which is not the case by Erard pianos of the time. It obviously takes the right pianist for making it sound. A Pleyel piano will not sound if it's not approached with utmost delicacy, unlike a modern grand that requires muscular strength even for playing "piano". We may hope that in a few years from now, similar materials will be again available as the ones used by Pleyel before 1849. Not only materials were different, but even the tension of felt on hammer heads was pretty lower than we may think. (Researches are on their way.)
And
Jan -
11 months ago
Pleyel was the brand of pianos Chopin preffered, not for their price, wich is not lower than that of other makers, but for their silvery sonority and their light touch ("Pleyel's pianos are the last word in perfection" he wrote once in a letter ). They were perfectly suited for his melodius style, but of course time doesn't leave pianos unaffected.
Wieland Hartwich
2 months ago
.....Chopin highly praised the Pleyel instruments. They were, as he put it, the non plus ultra, the best pianos to be found.
(The latter to comments to a Steinway fan, who was put in his place for his ludicrous comments.)
@@jorislejeune The timings for Eliah were for the original, un-revised original version as reported. However, Mendelssohn's comments on the performance at the venue was a complaint that another work (by Handel) to fill if I recall the last 30 minutes of the program. I have worked on the timing which coincide somewhat with the revised version and performances for single beat.
Now the question is, since Eliah was almost a posthumous publication in Germany, and as I do believe that metrical double beat co-existed with single beat MM, who is the source of the MM markings? The original manuscript of the UK 1846 performance, is in the Library of Birmingham, with some corrections by the copyist and Mendelssohn, but there are no MM indications in the score that the organist used. Although published in the same year as his death (I do not know the date), Mendelssohn had suffered from poor health in the final year of his life, and the added stress of the loss of his sister Fanny was another factor. So we are back to square one as to the single beat MM origins. I am unaware (but one might exist) of the revised score autograph existence.
A historical footnote, among the pallbearers at Mendelssohns funeral were Moscheles, Schumann and Niels Gade. The service was held in Paulinerkirche, Leipzig, the church J S Bach was director of music for "festal" (holiday) services in 1723−25. The East German Communists regime dynamited the church in the mid 1960's.