L.V.Beethoven: Sonata in C major op.53 "Waldstein" - Historical Tempo Reconstruction- Alberto Sanna
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Two centuries after Beethoven wrote this amazing Waldstein Sonata, a young Italian pianist with the name of Alberto Sanna decided to investigate on what could have possibly been the idea of tempi of the composer himself had in mind or what could have been the performance practice during the 19th century of this Sonata. After all, it is exactly this sonata that contains that mysterious Prestissimo at the end with the famous "glissando" octaves that everyone seems to find more interesting in keep labeling it as impossible to play instead of solve the 'problem'.
Alberto took the metronome marks for this sonata Czerny gave in his Pianoforte School op.500 and he decided to work on it and to experiment with these new tempi! Even before discovering this channel, he developped the idea that taking two ticks for one might actually solve the whole problem at once. And resulted in a wonderful new piece of music as well.
It took him a few years not only to discover Authentic Sound but also to contact me. And so here we are, happy to give the stage to this young Italian pianist for a beautiful and though 'premiere' of one of the most illustrious works history provided us with.
He described the last movement as a dream... and how nice of an illustration is that! Here's the real power of the WBMP Whole Beat Metronome Practice music becomes so strong and compositions so... advanced. In a way, this rondo announces the impressionists almost one century later...
1:25 - Allegro con brio (H=88)
21:39 - Adagio molto (8=56)
28:23 - Rondo: Allegretto moderato (Q=88)
47:40 - Prestissimo (W=88)
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Welcome everybody to yet another video/recording here on Authentic Sound. Feel free to share your impressions and thoughts with this community. Be inspired by a great community but keep the conversation nice. All we ask for is that you don't hit Enter for a message you would not deliver in real person. It'll make this place even so much better. Here's a quick reminder to our community guideline rules: ua-cam.com/video/MSDc5hRX8hg/v-deo.html
What temperament are you using?
@@Raherin LOL
AuthenticSound this sonata works well at double beat. However, others still don’t seem to make sense.
I don’t quite understand why is the tempo so slow. Sounds great though but, is it a kind of experiment?
@@miguelangelmartinezgonzale9239 Hey Miguel, I wish I could've seen your comment sooner! So this channel is kind of one big experiment if you want to look at it that way, but really it is more like an ongoing research project. Wim and Alberto have been applying something called the WBMP (whole beat metronome practice) which is a method of interpreting metronome markings from before a certain point in the mid-late 19th century. The idea behind this method comes from a lot of historical evidence that supports this, at the very least, as a viable theory. Basically, a lot of mysteries about the music before ~1860(??) can be cleared up nicely by playing it in whole beat. One of the major goals of this channel is to break down some of these mysteries, AND potentially dig out different meanings (through slower tempos) that have been lost over time, because modern performance culture usually boils down to blasting through some composers and absolutely waddling through others- way too much disregard of original metronome markings because they "dont make sense". Well this channel is here to make sense of them!
I cannot imagine now this sonata with any other tempo! Magically, after some minutes of hearing it, it does not seem anymore "too slow".
I don't understand why the tempo is so much slower than every interpretation I have ever heard for the first and third movements but not for the second.
And another thing that I don't understand is this: Arthur Schnabel's interpretation is twice as fast as this one. But Schnabel studied with Leschetizky, who studied with Czerny, who studied with Beethoven. So when did this "duplication of speed" take place? Which of the three decided to play twice as fast as his teacher thought they should play?
47:56
czerny's pianoforte-schule
chapter 4 : The Proper Performance of Beethoven's Works
"the following passage must be played by gliding of the fingers along the keys..."
(glissando, "scheifen im oktave")
"but for those with small hands, to whom the exucution of the passage would be impractical, must be played as follows:
(without doubling of the octave, only the upper voice.)
from the *great rapidity* of the passage, it would not sound thin even played in this way."
The last movement is a REVELATION. Such an incredible interpretation!
Great to read!
I have had an epiphany today! This has completely changed my relationship to Beethoven. Thank you very, very much!
Wow! It's like listening for the first time!
Same was for me :)
Over 50 years ago I had memorized the Waldstein in high school but had the tempi closer to this performance and got criticized for it. Thank you. I feel vindicated!!!
What made you play it slower than the “status quo”?
Thanks Alberto. It takes strength to go against the establishment.
It sounds so right, it's exquisite. It sounds like a real conversation, a sincere and beautiful conversation. It's like I'm hearing the work for the very first time, where has it been hiding. The Fritz has such a beautiful seamless baritone, tenor timbre and such refined clarity.
Thank you :)
The tempo of the first movement makes me wonder if Beethoven began composing this piece while riding a carriage.
That is precisely the image which formed in my mind hearing it. To be sure carriage rides were a bit uneven, bumy yet with smooth places. The passing land scape would add variety to the scene. Horse trots are echoed in the beginning. Those times allowed people to savor music and food and evenings with friends. As to Shakespeare, the plays were a big event with little else to clamor for attention. I am sad at rapid rushed, abreviated performances. Our times are so rushed...lamentable.
Love to watch 2Set. They do love and appreciate music. They are enthusiastically, unashamedly presenting the music's beauty.
They do give the inside knowledge and jokes only a musician who has played in a band or orchestra can appreciate
That is precisely the image which formed in my mind hearing it. To be sure carriage rides were a bit uneven, bumpy yet with smooth places. The passing landscape would add variety to the scene. Horse trots are echoed in the beginning. Those times allowed people to savor music and food and evenings with friends. As to Shakespeare, the plays were a big event with little else to clamor for attention. I am sad at rapid rushed, abreviated performances. Our times are so rushed...lamentable.
Love to watch 2Set. They do love and appreciate music. They are enthusiastically, unashamedly presenting the music's beauty.
They do give the inside knowledge and jokes only a musician who has played in a band or orchestra can appreciate.
To my ears, there is no doubt that I am hearing, a beautifully composed and performed masterwork ... the emotional impact being due to the slower performance. I’ve noticed something interesting listening to whole beat performances. They sound “just right” to me when I speed them up 25% .... and traditionally performed and rapidly played pieces sound “just right” slowed down 25%. Since I only play for my own enjoyment, I play at speeds that I feel are conveying the emotional impact of the music TO ME .... without regard to ANY metronome markings. Music, to me, speaks to the heart and soul, and really, can any printed tempo ‘dictates’ accurately reflect how each of us should individually feel in OUR hearts and souls.
I have found out, such as setting the right tempo for the Moonlight finale, that the sweet spot is somewhere between common current consensus vs Wim's WB approach.
Thank you Alberto for yet another great performance. This is my favorite sonata, and you have shown me nuances I had never noticed before. The deep silence... the gravity... Bravo!
That fortepiano is a work of art!
Thank you very much!
I cannae stop listening to this. Earth has waited for more than 200 years to hear this piece again. Thank you, Alberto! 👍💕👍
0:00 - Allegro con brio (H=88)
20:10 - Adagio molto (8=56)
26:57 - Rondo: Allegretto moderato (Q=88)
46:15 - Prestissimo (W=88)
I guess there was an intro to this video originally but the timestamps weren't changed. Here's the adjusted timestamps. Hope I got them right.
Thank you so much😀😀
Why is there so much rubato and stopping? This is not how Beethoven would have played this piece. He had a great sense of rhythm and time.
For the first time I heard every note and understood the meaning of dynamic marks in this masterpiece. The preparatory pauses, particularly in mov. 1 are really, really beautiful and reveal the true character and beautiful cantabile in the sonata. Thanks for the wonderful job done!
I am happy you liked this. thank you :)
I thought I knew Beethoven. And I thought I knew this piece. This was totally wrong. Your art was an earthquake. You destroyed old certainties. At the same time, I found a new piece of art somehow - in the Beethoven year 2020. This was so beautiful. You gave me new pictures and new perspectives. Many many thanks for your revelation, Alberto.
I am happy that my version could inspire you :)
At this tempo, I think in my opinion it's more conducive for improvisation to occur freely. When these pieces are played at a blazing speed, one doesn't even have the time to think what's going on as you're off to the next musical phrase in a flurry of notes. I enjoyed this very much, Alberto is a gifted pianist, looking forward to seeing more!
The essence of music is not to hear every single note separately. Some things are written to provide harmonic effects and some things are linked to musical rhetoric. There is no way Beethoven, who was known as a virtuoso, would have written such thing. What do you do then when near to tempo indication he writes "allegro con brio" ?
@@armpiano The harmonic effects were most certainly indeed present in the duel between Steibelt and Beethoven when Steibelt wowed the audience with his improv particularly in the piano bass section which on pianos of that time, had a growl-like sound. It was Beethoven, who after hearing his opponent play, begin to slowly improvise on Steibelt's theme, expanding, varying the dynamics and perhaps altering the tempo as well. My point is, it's fun to hear it as this tempo, which personally to me, allows one to hear more of what's going on. Especially on a period instrument as the one this musical piece was played on. You might be right on what Beethovoeen meant when 'allegro con brio' was mentioned. I'm no musical expert so perhaps more velocity is indeed required.
@@245artist You are perfectly right. Tempo and dynamic inflections were (and still are) part of the musical practice. And that since...very long time. We should not think that Beethoven and Steibelt were the ones who invented it. We have to relate the question of the tempo to the characteristics of the instrument also. You certainly notice that on period instruments the sound decreases faster than on modern ones. For me, that is also one of the reasons why tempo indications are very fast. On the other hand, on modern instruments you can allow yourself to play slower than that because musical declamation will not suffer. That being said, if you listen to 19th century pianists recordings (I.Friedman, Koczalski, Rosenthal, Rachmaninov) you will easily notice that they play even faster than we are used to hear nowadays.
By the way you are right to mention Beethoven-Steibelt. This kind of confrontations were also meant to show virtuosity. Do you really think they played at a tortoise's pace during their confrontations ? I don't think that at all. You can look at Czerny études. They are meant to develop velocity and technical achieving.
If you play at this tempo, you hear everything, that's sure. Often I practice like this. But when you have arpeggios or things like that, you don't need to hear every single note. It's a sort of musical landscape. When you look a landscape, you don't expect to see every single detail. You can distinguish some parts of it but you are just amazed by the general beauty. In music it's the same thing
Thank you :)
I have found myself more hooked with the music; like, when listening to an interesting discourse, you cannot just stop listening. There’s something more engaging and wise in the mixtures of sounds (also, I feel “glued” a few minutes into Mr. Weller’s excellent take on Chopin’s P.C. Nos. 1 & 2). This Sonata sounded to me incomprehensibly distasteful at the usual speeds... always felt that. This take is beautiful! A lot of congratulations and thanks to Alberto and Wim!
Lieber Wim, THANKS! Ich bin von der Weiterentwicklung dieses Kanals immer mehr begeistert. Thanks for all you've done until now and for bringing in Alberto; you two are already doing such an incredible job together! Endlich haben wir Zuhörer von diesem Beethoven Jubiläumsjahr was musikalisch gesehen hochwertiges zu erwarten!
Happy to read your comment. thank you for your kindness :)
Eine sehr durchdachte, konsequente und (vor allem in Anbetracht der heutigen Zeit, wo die pure Velozität scheinbar immer noch das erste Qualitätsmerkmal ist) überaus mutige und gelungene Interpretation, für die ich meinem jungen Kollegen aus vollem Herzen gratuliere!
Die Sonate trägt in Frankreich schon immer den Titel l'Aurore - die Morgenröte. In Albertos Interpretation des ersten Satzes hört man an der entsprechenden Stelle (Überleitung zur Reprise) die Sonne aufgehen - "die rosenfingrige Eos", um mit Homer zu sprechen. Die "Glissando"-Stelle am Schluß und die Triller hervorragend gelöst! Ich freue mich jetzt schon sehr auf weitere Einspielungen dieser Art von Alberto Sanna.
Agreed. I had to Google translate, and those were some really great acolades. This channel has so many people of class. I'm happy to belong.
Lieber Wolfgang, ich danke Ihnen für dein super nett Kommentar! und es freut mich dass die Aufnahme ihnen gefallen hat! Ich warte auf ihre nächste Aufnahme auf dem Kanal und ich hoffe, Sie werden viel Beethovens Musik in diesem Jahr spielen!
Behold, the Whole Beat Revolution, redefining the meaning of “virtuosity”. Bravo, Alberto!
Tempo could work, but not with soo much rubato?
I was here for the live, and I'm somewhat divided over this. I enjoyed Alberto's performance for the most part, but sometimes it didn't worked for me, I was lost "between the notes", although Alberto's playing was always very expressive. Some parts were so exciting, I never heard anything like this in a work that is not my favorite sonata btw, with the feeling that the music was created by itself along the way. And sometimes, other parts could have been played a litttle bit faster, at least for me, and this is just my opinion. Anyway, hats off to Mr.Sanna, fantastic playing. Whole or double beat, simply a true great musician.
In the words of Charles-Marie Widor, sometimes the volonté was missing in this interpretation. First mov.`s interpretation is best and is quite similar to Wim`s own interpretation at the clavichord. Mov. 2 is unclear and the third mov. needs better musical elaboration. At some places it is genius, at some parts the volonté is missing.
@@chegadesalzburg I’m curious, what do you mean by “volonté”?
You make Beethoven sound even more Bachian, divine, Bravo!
I have some questions regarding the double beat theory.
1. Wim has almost only made piano works at half tempo. What about other pieces? There are instruments like f.e. the trombone or other wind instruments where you need the air of your lungs. If you have to hold certain notes too long how will your lungs be able to do it? For example Mozart Clarinet Concerto in half tempo. How is the clarinetist going to survive? Or Dichterliebe played at half speed, how will the Singer survive? I am not a singer or a wind player myself but maybe you can answer.
2. Why did students of Liszt like Isaac Albéniz or Frederic Lamond (who have recordings on yt) played in whole beat? If there was a change, Liszt would have known and told his students, but - he didnt! Also pianists like Rachmaninoff and Debussy played in Whole Beat. If there was double beat in the 19th Century why would they change it to whole beat again in the 20th century?
3. If your theory is true, then why is there no real document or example that proves it? You only show examples or proof that you interpret in the way you like so it fits to your theory but where is the document or the documents that prove this? There is no direct evidence what so ever.
What makes me dubious is Beethoven was considered one of the finest virtuosos of his generation (before he had to stop performing). Do we really think he was disinclined to show off that virtuosity by playing so slowly? Maybe it was the best he could do, and human beings have so evolved anatomically since his time that we're capable of playing so much faster? I doubt it.
@@michaelspeir6086 virtuosity meant something very different in his time! he was first and furthermost an excellent improvisario. it was uncommon to play pieces not composed or improvised by himself.
Those are very important questions and need to be addressed and thoroughly investigated. But equally important is the question of what to do with all those 19th-century metronome marks that make no musical sense or are even impossible to realize.
@@michaelspeir6086 I am pretty sure that even the most virtuoso pianist of that time would not go for a 100% increase in tempo when interpreting the sonata. The expressivity is so much more important and only a veryintelligent interpreter can extract that from the notes. It is not about acrobatics but about the creation of rich sound atmospheres and leading consciously a musical narrative. It has nothing necessarily to do with higher tempos and acrobatics but with real cantabile.
To give a really unsatisfactory answer to these questions that have been asked many times over the last couple of years:
1) The evidence can be interpreted both ways.
2)The evidence has been lost over the years.
3) The evidence is yet to be found.
4) The evidence never existed.
My personal theory is that the majority of musicians (including the 99% who don't make a living at it) couldn't care less about some stupid number. They just play for the fun of it.
The most interesting performance of this work I've heard in a long, long time.
I mean, it gains a coherent second movement at these tempos.
And I agree, physically C Major is the hardest key to play in.
Hope this was inspiring :)
I can’t believe what I’m listening to. The first movement lasts over 20 minutes, one loses sense of where one is, and the third movement at this pace is pure agony. Nothing against this young pianist’s playing - it’s the crazy tempo.
I haven't said this much but it's a point I'll try to further development. Think of the "normal audience" of music in the classical. Mozart and early Beethoven. Mozart and Beethoven played for aristocrats and it wasn't for the art. It was entertainment, people in small groups danced. Others ate while having music. The point is that people did not dress in black, sat somewhere and heard someone play without any sound for an hour or two. It was all for fun, people where loud. Some even saved their entire lives just to go to a performance. That changed later on but think about it, the public wasn't suppose to analyze and and identity the structure. Was there a purpose for the composer to make something that the audience can analyze or just have fun hearing? They weren't educated in music, (there are always some). They just wanted to hear music, lengthy to have the experience.
@El Fogon Del Buen Gusto so you're saying that since a piece like the Waldstein sonata is basically just table or party music, it might as well be slowed down in double tempo to prolong it (Nineteenth Century Muzak?) because nobody in those ignorant times would know the difference!
Er... interesting theory.
@@thenosesdotcom Do you actually understand what I'm saying? Or you just don't. You told me that you don't keep up. Basically you can't analyze the piece (it's part, structure etc) I told you that people did not go to concerts in black clothing to analyze and pay attention. Do you understand or not?
@@thenosesdotcom And yes, many Europeans where pretty ignorant. Do you argue against that? Music theory is the last thing in the minds of common 18 century men and women.
@@fogonpr You are right, I don't understand, so please help me connect the dots between Nineteenth century taste in clothing and metronome tempos. Thanks!
I have recently discovered your channel and have been enjoying it very much. I find your research on tempi to be fascinating and have enjoyed these Beethoven sonatas at slower speeds very much! For me the music, the harmonic language has such a clarity at the slower speeds. Thank you very much!
The phrasing is amazing, the music really comes out!
I am really happy you like it... there is a lot more to come... don't miss it!
Congrats! to the young pianist for having the courage to render the work in this way.
Thank you :)
Thank you all - Alberto, Wim and others in this channel - for rediscovering the proper weight dramatic music deserves instead of treating it as acrobatic racing.
Might I add ever since I began following this channel and the numerous historical evidence for whole beat, I myself, despite being just an amateur dilettante at best, had a go with the Waldstein and other Beethoven sonatas, with very similar results and unfolding much lyrical passages that become mere blurry textures in the rushed tempo tradition...
let more people clean the wax out of their muffled ears and listen to it brand new!
Thank you for being so kind to us! I am glad you liked the recording :)
This is the first time I enjoy this work
I am glad this new version has made you appreciate better this incredible sonata :)
I've never liked this sonata. I've always felt it was too technical with no "beauty". Now I really enjoy listening to this sonata. Thank you!
Dear Winters, are you planing on adding these to Spotify one day? I am so used to your tempo and also your recordings on Clavichord. They are lovely! I would love to listen these recordings also on Spotify :)
Just magnificent! There is so much here that I have never heard before, and which cannot be heard at the usual tempo. Suddenly, the composition becomes a unity. And, ah, the sublime development of the Rondo, instead of the rush and jumble we usually hear.
Whoever respects the mind of the great composer will have now to reckon with this performance.
And now I can look forward to many happy hours listening, re-listening, and contemplating this beautiful piece. Thank you Alberto for bringing it back to life. This is the greatest gift the New Year could have brought!
I am glad you liked this recording! There is a lot more to come :)
Great tempo for practicing and exploring the piece
I can anticipate the sound before it's played😁! Bravo!
thank you! happy to hear that :)
How wonderful! So many new harmonies I've never heard before with the rushed tempos!
@@EdmundoPFN Exactly. A composer would never to my knowledge (especially Beethoven) simply compose beautiful notes, but prescribe a tempo that is ridiculously fast so as to blur the sounds.
@@MaestroTJS What objective criteria do you use to evaluate "how stupid it sounds"?
@@MaestroTJS "It's difficult listening to harmonies when music is been played fast". -Point to the false, it's your homework.
What a journey! 💕🎵💕
Out of curiosity: to those who have heard Glenn Gould's version of Beethoven's Opus 57 - that recording where he played the first movement so slow, that it was (as I recall) almost half-speed. Should we now all be convinced that Gould was the ONLY pianist to get the tempo right? Just wondering....
The first movement will take some getting used to but that Prestissimo at the end is simply marvellous. Congratulations to Alberto Sanna on his wonderful playing.
Yeah, "prestissimo" is a word anyone would use to describe this
This really is exciting! Whatever Beethoven's intentions may have been, this tempo and this interpretation work very well for me - I've always had trouble listening to Beethoven's music at a fast pace: this double-beat interpretation just works fantastically. Bravo, Alberto!
I am happy that you liked this version :) stay tuned...a lot more is about to come
@@albertosanna4539 I'm looking forward for it!
These videos are quite useful. Whenever I want to get an impression of Czerny's tempo suggestions, I just have to play it on 2x speed!
actually it is not! When your premise would be that our reading of the metronome marks is half too slow, you should refrain yourself from using digital techniques to speed it up twice, since it wouldn't proof your point. Instead, you should be playing it twice the speed. But that, as it turns out, is the challenge you would be dealing with for a really long time. Hope this helps :-)
Bravo! ❤❤❤❤❤
At this tempo the music sings I am convinced that was what Beethoven wished.
Brilliante.
While it is interesting to hear the fine details at this slow tempo, I am not convinced that it is authentic. Beethoven’s own tempo marking for the 1st mvmt is Allegro con brio in 4/4 time. The tempo you are playing is not Allegro. At most it is something like “Andante con moto”. I don’t understand how you can justify calling it Allegro. I agree with many here that the slow tempo is often pleasing to listen to. But in my view it is not what Beethoven intended. On the other hand, I agree with you that playing it at twice your tempo, which is how it’s often heard, is not authentic either.
Hi Timothy, that feeling comes because through time we have 'reset' the "tempo feeling" connected to those terms. The MMs however are not affected by similar change, so it's either a tempo meant in single beat or whole beat. In single beat, it will be obvious what the problems are one encounters!
@@AuthenticSound thanks for your reply. I am trying to be open minded, but the idea that we have reset the meaning of these words over time doesn’t make sense to me. “Andante “ is the everyday Italian word for “walking”, so perhaps it’s the only case where the meaning of the word implies a common-sense real-life range of tempo. Are you saying that people in 1800 walked twice as slowly as we do today? On the face of it, this makes no sense to me. Yes, we are living in a much “faster-paced” culture now, but surely not twice as fast!
I always loved this piece at the “usual” tempo (and still do) but this is beautiful as well... wow keep this going!
Thank you for your kind words :)
Bravo complimenti
Thank you for the journey! Landmark interpretation. Beautiful player.
Thank you :)
A profound revelation, yes indeed. A candle-lit pace from a candle-light era. But I wonder how Beethoven would have reacted if he could have heard Claudio Arrau or Valentina Lisitsa. Would he have said what Brahms said went he heard someone else interpreting his music: 'So, it can also be played that way.'
I have always thought that the third movement was played at a ridiculously fast speed, that's why I've always liked Daniel's Barenboim Interpretation the most, and his interpretation is not so far away from this...
3:56 This melody has never been so beautiful before!
it wasn't a melody, before. look what a normal tempo does to a piece
A whole century's recordings has just been shown to be useless. This is just brilliant. First time ever I've enjoyed this sonata
Muito obrigado!
thank you! :)
Disconnecting our own previous emotions and knowledge concerning this famous Sonata and its many performances, from this particular experiment and performance - will help us treat it objectively. However, one should not ignore the problems of this interpretation and realization: no, no, I'm not talking about the reconstruction of the historical tempo, which is really OK for those who accept the theory of the whole-beat-metronome. I'm talking about the exaggeration in using the rubato and pedal which cause in fact a damage to this theory. Young most talented Alberto Sanna is very sensitive and his playing is very beautiful, but he has to learn to plan carefully the use of the rubato and pedal and restrict these means of expression only to the most important moments, in the overall of the piece. Thus, he will not loose the energy of the Sonata and the audience's attention. Anyway - Bravo for this performance and experiment and thanks for this unique upload!
Thank you for your feedback :)
I didn't hear him play with much rubato! But he applies unequal rythms with much taste.
Great!
Thank you :)
This sonata sounds so beautiful in the fortepiano, wow. I really want to hear the "Les Adieux" in the Fritz. Great playing, Alberto!
Thank you Thiago for your kind words. "Les Adieux" will come over the next months :)
Again amazing performance!
Thank you :)
I would like everybody to think about something for a moment regarding establishing any composer's wishes for his composition tempi, taking particular notice of when a specific piece was composed. In the baroque, classical and even romantic period of classical music composition, when the great musical giants of this era were busy doing there composing - Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Schumann, Brahms, and, of course, Beethoven - society had very little to "feast" on entertainment-wise. Think about it: there were no live professional sports or games you could attend, there was no TV or even radio, there were no movies, etc. In short, the only entertainment to be had was live musical concerts (including operas) and live theater. Do you not think that people of that era would milk everything they could to make the music or theater (addictively) last longer? I definitely can believe that musical tempi as per the composer's wishes were slower than the "evolutionary" increased tempi that these compositions of that era are played today. Makes complete sense to me...the longer I have to listen to a Beethoven, etc. composion, the longer I'm in heaven.
I heard this said of Shakespeare's plays as well. People wanted their "money's worth". You speak the reality of the times.
This lunacy seems to be perpetuated through auto suggestion, causing people to fantasize extra-musical explanations to justify the original error. I can't help thinking this is some Jacques Derrida like deconstruction aimed at tearing down western music. Iconoclasm masquerading as revelation.
@@thomashughes4859 A performance of Hamlet with all the lines runs at least five hours. No one today has the patience for that, and ALL of Shakespeares plays are cut, often severely. Yet no one complains that the directors make cuts! Make any changes to Beethoven or Mozart, and holy hell breaks out. Makes no sense at all.
Exactly. I always tell my students that when you went out for an evening back in the 18th and 19th century, you were OUT! It took so long to get properly dressed, then the ride to where you were going was difficult, uncomfortable and probably freezing cold. But you were glad to be out because you didn't have to heat your house for a whole evening. So when you went out, you were out for the evening, and there was no rush to get back into a cold carriage just to get home and stay cold.
@@rand503 I am glad to know we read the right literature or had the same teachers. Thank you.
That was actually v v good ..... I'm now sitting on the fence with this
Happy to hear that! thank you for the kind words
Interesting performance, and emotional in an unusual way, almost like a great lullaby. I can't imagine for a moment that it's what Beethoven had in mind (for example, it would be generous to call the tempo at 47:40 allegretto, let alone prestissimo), but it is quite lovely.
Well, all evidence would suggest this is pretty much what Beethoven had in mind. Allegro and Allegretto do not translate to speed. I can see that being a Presto so Prestissimo isn't so farfetched, especially when considering the fastest rhythms in that section and the octaves etc.
Listening through a microscope. Interesting.
Suggestion to look at Grieg's Holberg suite: the original piano part might also require WBM practice.
I really enjoyed the colorful pedaling choices.
Wow it's like hear it for the first time. The dinamics now are perfect sense. I like this piano, but I rather prefer hear this work in a modern piano. Just my opinion. Again thanks for the inspitation and amazing work both of you.
Thank you! We are glad that you appreciate our work :) It's always refreshing to hear a positive feedback and we are happy we can impact people on the other side of the camera
@@albertosanna4539 you do even now I enjoy a lot more to play my repertoire.
Thank you, i couldnt stand listening to the fast versions anymore
You may not agree with this theory, but it cannot be denied that it is the ONLY one that respects what the author (or his contemporaries) intended. Usually we use the principle "I do as I want because Beethoven, Czerny, Brahms, Chopin, etc. were not able to indicate the tempo". I know how to recognize the correct tempo, they can't!
@@chlorinda4479 no. This theory depends entirely on ONE premises: the statistic! Since the WB theory has a smaller standard deviation than the SB theory, it means that it is mathematically more precise in indicating the metronome marks
@@chlorinda4479 No, I have never talked about performances, but only about metronomic indications
@@chlorinda4479 I try to explain it in a non-engineering way, hoping to be sufficiently understandable. The metronomic indications in SB provide very diversified values: a quarter note of a presto can vary, for example, from 112 to 576 beats per minute. They are very different values. In these cases, it is said to provide scattered values. The WB, on the other hand, provides values ranging from 70 to 125. They are values with less dispersion.
In essence: according to the SB, Beethoven chose the metronomic indications by rolling the dice; according to the WB, however, Beethoven had a precise idea of what the metronomic indication of an adagio (around 28-53), an allegro (around 55-88), a presto (around 70-125), etc. was.
@@chlorinda4479 Of course, all presto movements have been analysed.
The WB figures are not half of the SB because the data tell me that in the ternary figures the time shouldn't be halved, but is divided into three parts. I therefore consider Wim's theory to be a giant leap for mankind, but I think it can be improved
@@chlorinda4479 String Quartet op. 18 no. 3/iv in 6/8
I'm always waiting for a Lied or a duo/trio recording.
It’s a nice performance but his touch is too strong for Viennese 6 octaves piano, I feel....
It's definetely a new instrument for me and I am working to develop a better technique to play on it. stay tuned to see the evolution :)
Alberto Sanna Thank you so much for your reply! I can’t imagine you’re first time with period instrument! Last month I had a opportunity to play original Nannette Streicher and the touch and sound from the instrument was quite a revelation ! And I thought that with too fast tempo, people cannot understand the music from the great instrument!
There’re many “fortepianists” nowadays but I feel that most of them are playing as a same way of playing modern pianos: too strong touch, too fast tempo, no essential and harmonic rubato. I don’t like them. A great Russian fortepianist, who has already retired in the middle of her 30s(!) , said ‘many pianists are playing too fast, too loud : I don’t want to attract audiences with that kind of way’ . She was single beat player but I feel that we are sharing the question.
Wim’ s Video has inspired me as well. I gave up my music carrier for my health reasons ( I received violences against my neck for 3 times at the schools) and I couldn’t play fast, modern instruments are too heavy for me. And I had a doubt about the tempi- why must I play so fast?
I thought that I would never play the music , but thanks to authenticsound, I thought that maybe I can play it again, with historical perspective on tempo and historical instrument. I’m no longer a musician but oneday I want to play again!
I've always said modern pianists play too fast. The many subtle and wonderful harmonies of Mozart are never fully realized at fast tempi. Vacuous virtuosity is given preference over thoughtful interpretation and expression.
Congratulation for the high quality of the performance. I keep following Wim's channel since a few years and I really appreciate the attempt to look for an authentic way to think about romantic and classical music, but after listening to this sonata I personally believe that the whole beat theory can not work because, if it's true that speed is not what gives the composition it's character, it's true that some agogic indications, like "prestissimo", could not be fully expressed by the intention of the player to play with fire but neglecting the energy that the quick notes bring into themself. In other words it's quite impossible in my opinion to communicate the whole pallette of emotions linked with the feeling of excitement without involving a certain amount of dynamism that fast metronome tempos give.
It goes down the throat like sweet Honey and leaves you a heavenly flavour in the mounth. Simply brillant.
Thank you for your beautiful comment :)
@@albertosanna4539 gratzie tannti maestro.
Beautiful performance! And the Fritz piano is sounding wonderful. I also enjoy listening to Wim's performance of this music on clavichord. This might be an interesting topic of discussion: What artistic choices do you make playing on a clavichord compared to a 19th century piano or a 21st century piano? Is it possible to play exactly (or nearly) the same on the different instruments?
Beautifully played but the piece simply does resonate with me on an emotional or spiritual level at this tempo. I also have to wonder about the non metronome tempo descriptions. How, for example, can the last movement be characterized as prestissimo at this tempo? If that is prestissimo what would it sound like at adante? Or the first movement as allegro con brio? Is it possible that Czerny sometimes used single beat and sometimes used double beat? Just a thought.
Fascinating. And what a gorgeous instrument! Much to like here. The allegro is like a conversation, as CC said very well. I'll admit I couldn't adjust to the adagio, where stasis seemed always to be threatening. But I found the prestissimo to be revelatory.
Thank you :) happy to read that
i like the tempo but i dislike the rubtos Alberto is doing. Rubatos in this case shouldn't be that frequent, and should be more subtle.
They should be more subtle? According to who? This interpretation is very close to the rubato from the baroque period (or more precisely the 'rythmes inégaux').
The octave glissandi were never an impossibility on the relevant instruments. The notion of glissando technique being a cheap way to play very fast was invented in the early 20th C. Beethoven used glissando as merely a different technique compared to wrist articulation. The notation he used was a common one for glissando at the time (the word "glissando" hadn't been coined yet). So the glissandi have nothing to do with double vs. single beat.
octave glissandi, people talk about it, but it does not exist, how would you technically do that? If it were possible (and not have cut your fingers off), the action of a Viennese piano would be damaged. What Czerny mentions is a loose wrist in order to simulate a kind of legato in these octaves, only possible at this tempo.
@@AuthenticSound of course it exists, and did back then. The Viennese action allowed it effortlesly (compared to the English, for instance), helped by its key dip, width, weight, and chamfering. Only in the second half of the 19C did the action become too heavy for some types of glissandi (as can be evidenced, amongst others, by composers putting certain types of glissandi in ossia).
It's the first time that I really understand the musical sense of this sonata. Before, when I listen to performances by other "mainstream" artiste, all that I can discern is a blur of cascading notes. This is especially so in the first movement. At this reconstructed tempo I am actually able to follow along with the score, while with other recordings, this is impossible because everything is moving so fast and one can't really follow with the score and constantly loses their place if they were not very familiar with the piece. One other observation is that Alberto is able to turn the pages without the help of a page turner. I think that before Liszt, the pianists also had to turn their own pages--which is quite practical with WBMP.
I am glad this version made sense to you. thank you for your comment :)
Just the most fabulous interpretation I have ever heard!!! Great work, Alberto! You are the future of classical music. The "ahem" ... shhhh (record companies) had better "retool" and "retool" QUICKLY!
stop scrolling. shut up and listen
Fantastic, I loved!
Thank you :) I am happy to hear that
It's been three years since I've heard this sonata for the first time in this tempo. At first it was a shock, but even then it sounded beautiful. Now, I can't stand the "normal" tempo, it's too fast, everything sounds so sloppy. This legendary performance has totally changed me.
This one performance is all the proof I would ever need to be convinced that the whole beat theory is correct.
Quite possibly these are the tempi Czerny used. If Czerny's use of metronome markings was consistent, Wim makes a strong case, but it is very unclear how long this practice persisted during the 19th century.
The recorded performance of Frederic Lamond gives us a strong indication of how the Waldstein was played by some of the most important pianists of the 19th century.
Frederic Lamond (1868-1948) was a major pianist, before Schnabel he was considered the major authority on performance of Beethoven's sonatas. He was a pupil of Max Schwarz, who had been a pupil of von Bulow and Liszt, he then studied with von Bulow and Clara Schumann before becoming one of Liszt's last pupils. He also studied Brahm's piano works with the composer.
Not only was he the editor of the Breitkopf & Hartel edition of Beethoven's sonatas, but we also have some recordings including the Waldstein sonata. Lamond give crotchet = 168, exactly the same as von Bulow (Czerny gives minim = 88 and Schnabel crotchet = 176 which is equivalent to Czerny). Listening to Lamond's recording (ua-cam.com/video/VwMqQkkm9Aw/v-deo.html) it is evident that he starts with 168, with rallentandos in places e.g. for the second subject, he more or less follows this tempo. Since Beethoven sonatas were the core repertoire in the second half of the 19th century, this has to be a performance that is steeped in the tradition of some of the 19th century's most influential musicians. Lamond would have studied Beethoven sonatas with these important teachers. We know that on introduction to Liszt (via von Bulow) that Lamond played the Hammerklavier, which he had already worked on with von Bulow, however we do not have a recording.
The evidence shows that Lamond played at the single beat indications of his editions (but not the Hammerklavier, where his edition retains Beethoven's indications) and very much suggests that he is playing at a tempo that reflects his teachers' practice.
fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic_Lamond
(This comment is an edited version of a comment I put on one of the community pages, but is better offored for discussion here)
That practice did not exist. Please people, don't believe this nonsense. It has no historical fundament. I'm using historical sources and I never found such information
@@armpiano What practice, what information and what historical sources? We have editions of Beethoven sonatas from von Bulow, Lamond and others; we have a few recordings of Lamond; we have some of the old instruments themselves and the upper limit of speed for repeated notes doe not require sources other than the instruments themselves. Then there are Czerny's and Beethoven's metronome marks, but I doubt there is any historical evidence to suggest that pianists were playing more slowly and not faster as the status of professional pianists grow during the 19th century.
I am not sure what you are trying to argue, but I would have expected to find some references somewhere to to confusion over metronome markings and I would also have expected metronome marks to be both playable and musical. Any historical evidence either way needs to be considered on its merits.
@@martinbennett2228 Then you should listen A.Staier's recording of Beethoven trios and you'll find out that not only the mechanical repetition of these instruments is not a problem but these tempi fit very well to the character of the pieces and musical properties of these instruments. The difficulty of these tempi doesn't mean they are false. They are extremely difficult and require a real technicality but virtuosity is part of the performance.
I'm talking about historical documents that prove this idea that tempo indications should be divided by two.
Besides I myself tries Czerny's and Moscheles' metronome indications and they work very well. If it doesn't work, may be one should wander if he or she uses the right technical approach in order to achieve that quality of execution.
Speaking of the supposed problem of the repetition on these instruments... it is absolutely not a problem at all, and by the way there are very few passages in Beethoven piano music where he uses repeated notes. The way should Beethoven (or any other composer) put "allegro con brio" at the beginning of a movement if he wanted that to be played in slow motion ? And what is the point of putting a tempo indication if what he meant is the half of that indication ??? That is absolute nonsense for me. By the way, how do you proceed to divide the tempo by two in cases like 6/8, 9/8 ?
You want historical arguments. The you should listen to Koczalski's and Rosenthal's recordings. They both studied Chopin's music with Mikuli (most famous pupil of Chopin who published Chopin's work also with tempo indications) and these two pianists play Chopin's études in the exact tempo indicated by Chopin. So you think Mikuli would have forgotten to teach them such an important thing if, as you claim, all metronome indications should be divided by two ? I don't believe that at all ! You listen to Friedman also.
Personally I prefer to listen to these genius musicians and prefer to practice for technical and musical achievement instead of developing doubtful theories over things that are not historically and factually provable.
Arman Grigorian so you agree with Martin?
@@armpiano Since I have discovered that Wim is surreptitiously suppressing even reasoned critical comments, I am increasingly sceptical of his whole enterprise. However, i still think he plays Bach on the clavichord very well and has raised a genuine issue with Czerny's tempi.
Beautiful!
Thank you :)
@@albertosanna4539 your welcome! I love classical music and I appreciate the work you guys are doing. Here is a book recommendation that deals with a different type of controversy.. "The Great Controversy" by Ellen G White. If you want to read it on your phone you can find it for free on the app store, just look for Egw writings. :)
Actually sounds really good. Second movement is still a bit too slow in tempo for me.
Thank you :) happy you like it
I think anyone can tell, unless they are lying to themselves, that this tempo doesn’t work. There is no melody in the last movement played at that speed. No melody and no virtuosity, and the effect of the piece is gone.
Yes, we're liars... thank you for your much appreciated reply Frederic.
The effect of this piece is gone... Are you insinuating that you know what effect this piece should have? Or is it the effect do YOU like the piece to have. Don’t get it twisted, you didn’t write this piece, if what Beethoven wanted is nothing like you expected it to be, it will still be the real interpretation of this piece.
Love this speed❤️ I enjoyed this very much.. You’re the Best❤️
Beautiful third movement !!
Thank you :)
Thank you very much to you and your team for dedicating yourself to such an interesting topic! I enjoy all
of your videos and especially the recordings! Also this one sounds so much more natural than the standard recordings of the piece and i feel this is the way it was played by Beethoven himself.. it really carries the feeling of the time in it was written!
Happy to read that this version made sense to you. We hope it has been a revelatory experience :) Stay tuned for more
Omg I’ve been looking for this, didnt know you guys already made it!! Thanks so much Alberto, your playing is gorgeous as ever- was it fun for you?
It was a lot of fun! I am planning to record it again with the original pedalings at moscheles tempi!
(Alberto)
@@AuthenticSound BIG WOW, im so excited now hahahaha! I am absolutely obsessed with this piece, one of few pieces that I think I like in just about any tempo as long as the pulse is there! I'm burning with curiosity now, cannot wait to hear it in Moscheles tempi!
The beginning really sounds like it was played by hitting tree trunks with a stone!!!!
I like it a lot.
Thank you :)
This sounds awesome when you you set playback speed to 2x, well done
Your WMPB sort of destroys the image(s) we have of the classical period of music - and also romantic. When you study music history, it seems that music strangely lags behind the other arts and culture in general in a way that doesn't really seems to make sense.
Suddenly, when (classical and romantic) music is viewed through the scope of WBMP, it begins to fall in line with the history and culture. The age of enlightenment, science, humanism, revolution. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and others cease to be these wind up mechanical machines but living, breathing people and music. Chopin and Liszt are no longer these extravagant, flashy shows of senseless passionate abandon but rather truly contemplative, introspective, heroic, philosophical, spiritual story tellers who share what is important and interesting to them.
that is very well said, thank you!
I think good pianist like Emil Gilels transport all findings discovered here also, but with less erratic speed changes and at full speed.
fortepiano is the besrt type of piano. i love it's bright sound compared to the more modern piano
Bravo! Glad you did this. I've worked on this particular sonata for years, and I could never understand it. Not only is it difficult technically, but it's exhausting! By the end of the last movement, you are emotionally spent -- it is impossible to maintain the high energy that.a fast play demands.
Worse, I have found that so much is lost when played at the 'traditional' tempo. You simply cannot hear the abrupt or subtle chord changes, and the counterpoint in the last movement is nearly all lost. Why would Beethovan write such music if he knew no one would ever be able to hear it, except piano students first learning it?
I too realized that it sounds and plays much better at a slower tempo. It's really 'common musical sense.'!
Thank you for your kind words (Alberto)
It is incredibly difficult to listen to this and to know that all these years of hearing Beethoven played at faster tempos were actually a lie. I can't enjoy this the same way at all. 😢
Be a little patient. A language is not learned overnight. We are finally letting these pieces speak.
You have absolutely no reason to feel sorry since this theory isn't true.
Listen to music at any speed you like but try to find information outside of this channel.