Now I finally understand why Chopin like to notate elaborate runs like that. He could have just note them accordingly to rhythmic timings. It's because at that tempo then only Chopin embellished the void with elaborate runs.
So beautiful... Never want to hear a Chopin piece played in modern tempo ever again.. Thank you so much for all of your amazing content, really appreciate it! :)
Those complaining about it being too slow, did you even realised how much was omitted by professional players with regards to the notes written, the accents, the runs, the ornaments. Maybe it should a little faster, but not double this speed.
It's interesting to consider the tempi and revisiting the metronome markings. However, there is a vast body of evidence that would indicate that this half-tempo approach to interpreting metronome markings is completely inaccurate: gramophone records made from pianists in the lineage stemming from the composers themselves. Many of Liszt's pupils made records - they were taught directly by the composer. Several of Chopin's pupils taught pianists who recorded: Alfred Cortot and Raoul Koczalski are two pianists whose teachers studied directly with Chopin himself. If we want to go further back a bit, the legendary teacher Theodor Leschetizky taught many of the great pianists who recorded in the first half of the 20th century: Artur Schnabel, Benno Moiseiwitsch, Ignaz Friedman, and many others... Leschetizky studied with Czerny, who studied with Beethoven, and when he was a child, Leschetizy performed with Mozart's SON conducting. I can't imagine that anyone who studied with Beethoven, Chopin, and Liszt would not communicate a way to observe the tempo markings since they would have learned this from the composer themselves. And yet not ONE of these performers who made gramophone records interprets at the speed that is found in your videos. Not ONE. There is a 1948 concert recording of Koczalski playing this Chopin Concerto (which ironically in this video is in the solo arrangement by Mikuli, the Chopin pupil whom Koczalski studied with) and he plays at what today might be considered a 'normal' tempo... The interesting thing, however, is that today tempi are in fact slower than they often were with pianists trained in the 19th century: Josef Hofmann's speed in Chopin works (the E-Flat Nocturne is under 4 minutes) is quite legendary, and these were pianists who were trained at the time that these works were relatively new. So where are we to believe that the 'break' from the composer's own approach - given that they taught pupils who then taught other pupils - took place? When not a single pianist born in the 19th century, not one who studied with a Chopin pupil (and we also have recordings by Francis Planté from 1928 - and he had heard Chopin play when he himself was a child) plays with this kind of tempo? Certainly amongst pianists on record there is a range of tempi - that is within the scope of individuality that was the norm amongst musicians of the time - but there is not one recording that I've heard (and I've been studying them for 30 years) that indicates that there is any credence to this approach to reading metronome markings. I'm all for revisiting approaches to looking at the score and commend you for that - it's a large part of what I do (the fact that certain expectations were not marked by composers because it was known at the time that a performer would do it) in my approach to interpretation via historical recordings - but one has to examine the actual 'living' evidence that exists in being able to hear the actual playing by performers who studied in the lineage of the great composers whose works we still revere and perform today.
These recordings reflect a performance tradition that already neglected metronome number indications, especially with records, where it’s cheaper to produce a faster recording. Just because, for example, Clara Schumann’s students recorded pieces in tempi close to the single beat reading, does not mean they used a single beat reading as a starting point. Performances already sped up in the first half of the 19th century, due to demand by audiences. Records reflect only that demand, not a authentic reconstruction of the composers intent
We know that Holst increased the tempo of his music when it was recorded due to limitations of recording equipment. Mars 1926 is recorded far quicker than any reading of the score read suggests. And Jupiter is quicker than it is today too. ua-cam.com/video/lsBdREh9UEw/v-deo.html What would have happened without the then necessary compromises. Just because the orchestra can play it at that tempo and did play it at that tempo does not mean that was the original intention. And maybe Holst was not a 'good' conductor. And despite this recording being 42 minutes, much faster than today's performances, people in the comments section still call it 'dull'. Authentic is 'dull'. And dont forget the planets was originally written for 2 pianos, not orchestra! And playing it at any tempo is very difficult.
The mention of Francis Plante actually favours the authentic tempo argument. His 1928 recording of several Chopin etudes adopted tempi 'a great deal slower than the metronome markings' according to James Methuen-Campbell (Lord Methuen'). Old age has been offered as an explanation of the slow tempi, but the playing was not clumsy at all. Indeed, it was a model of clarity and poetry, and put the erratic but inspired Cortot, who was a lot younger, to shame.
Fact of the matter is, there are so many evidences that also counteract this logic. Many interviews of performers taught by the composers mentioning how they did absolutely everything different from their teachers. Both ways of performing existed at one point at the same time, so both theories are valid.
Il tempo contribuisce a definire la grandezza di un’artista che ha lasciato un segno nella storia e dobbiamo essere orgogliosi per questi esecuzioni.Grazie Maestro per gli ascolti che ci propone.
Herr Weller spielt die meiste Musik in Vollschlag. Obwohl er nur auf zeitgenössischen Instrumenten spielt, ist er damit den Originalen näher als die vielen Vertreter der historisch informierten Aufführungspraxis.
It sounds a bit out of place in this Modern World but at this Pace........the ears can "digest to the heart's content" every Chordal motion, melodic shift...."Impressive".....great work done here, keep up the good work and thanks for your contribution to "the Art of making Good Music".
Beautiful! Guitar, bass and viol are my instruments, so the piano repertoire is foriegn, aside from my study at university. This recording reveals beauty to this piece that I was not aware of. Not played to win a competition, but to reveal the beauty of the universe through music.
Thank you Wim for bringing this superb performance to the light.. this Concerto is just soo beautiful.. it is so slavic/folklor/nature like, at the same time being extremaly aristocratic it also is kind of dark/full of sorrow, but still elegant.. almost every pianists i've heard run through this piece like crazy, and the meaning of it is somehow lost imho... After listening to Maestoso when it finished i just closed my eyes and when the Larghetto started after few bars, when the main theme appeared i must tell you guys that i guess the first time since a long time i had shivers and it almost brought tears to my eyes.. such an emotional atomic bomb..Absolutely genius.. I'm writing this comment while listening to Allegro Vivace it suits the whole thing beautifully.. If you listen to this music with proper attention and focus the katharsis feeling must be there after all :) All the best in doing great job with double-beat research, and collaborations ! God bless you all. Greetings from Poland. Cheers !
̶A̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶t̶l̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶t̶ ̶b̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶.̶ Speaking seriously, performing is also psychological. You have to think also in your audience. Who would stand so slow concertos sitting in a concert hall?
Congratulations for the work of you all in preserving the unmeasureable value of truth in classical music! I guess that the Classical world has been contaminated with undue freneticism that has become accepted and thus it forms basis of "crazy" works of breakneck speeds and intranquility. That could explain some excesses of the 20th century output. It is a big shame that people are deprived of listening to pleasureable classical music. If I had a dollar for every lay person who has told me that they don't understand such music because it sounds too intense or harsh when played as it is nowadays...
Naxos and similarly encyclopedic enterprises should find a niche now to promote this rediscovery. And maybe even DG will budge. This has to be welcomed by artists, not derided but seen even as a commercial opportunity.
Hi, do you have the accurate piano sheet for the 2nd movement? Especially the left hand chords played by left hand in the middle part! Thanks a lot !!!
The whole beat theory of the metronome certainly gives us an opening movement here that is consistent with "maestoso." And I can buy the tempo for the larghetto, too. But the last movement is problematic for me, as I don't think "allegro vivace" can be achieved at this tempo. I do understand that "vivace" is not a tempo indicator, and also that I'm not able to hear with 1830 ears, a time when a horse cantering at 12-15 mph was something going pretty darn fast.
The length of this video is quite interesting -- less than 50 minutes. If it really should have been played 2x faster then it should take give or take 25 minutes. Most of current performances are about 35 mins. Maybe the current pianists begin to realize that they're just too fast. Or just unknowingly adhere to Chopin indications most of the time.
Very interesting! (No, not channelling Arte Johnson!).... while a trifle laborious, every note can be followed in the score (just about) and much greater attention can be paid to the Harmony, chromatic sonority and structure of the piece. Of course, the sparkle and scintillation of modern break-neck speed is lacking, but the pace of life, while indeed swifter than we often wish to be aware of, benefits by attention to detail and knowing what one and others are doing!
Sadly, a Pole (Tomasz is the Polish spelling), did not like the third movement, and suggested that this was a Mazurka. Unfortunately for him, only TWO choices exist for the tempo of this piece: M.M. Dott'd Minim = 69 (per beat) or M.M. Dott'd Minim = 69 (per time period), i.e., Halfbeat vs. Wholebeat. Playing this particular Kullak edition, no other interpretations are allowed lest you are playing your own interpretation, history be damned. Thesis: The wholebeat tempo is the only one available to us. Let's compare the tempi, shall we? I found "Mazurka - a renowned dance from Poland | Euromaxx" on UA-cam, which I found to be reputable. If any Poles wish to challenge the tempi of the dances I saw, we'll argue this point first (authenticity is paramount). If not, then we proceed. The four samples I took (see below for the formula I used - challenge it if you will) had "Measures per Minute" (MPM) of between 51.948 and 63.943. In 3/4, the fastest note value was the quaver. There might have been an ornamental semiquaver and a semiquaver rest, which would need to be preserved (notably honoured in the music). I have pulled two Mazurkas from my own library and found these note values to be accurate. The Polish National Anthem - itself a Mazurka - was only 36.309 MPM!!! The third movement of this Chopin Professor Weller played was 34.5 measures per minute. The minimum note values here are triplet quavers, which means that instead of the 6 quavers per measure of the Mazurkas I sampled, this one has NINE! So, how do we compare that? With notes per second. (see formula below) Including the Polish National Anthem and the fastest dance tempi I sampled, the range is: 3.631 - 6.3943 notes per second. The third movement is played at 5.175 notes per second. This is 0.16235 notes per second higher than the average samples. Now, if Wolfgang Weller played this piece at halfbeat, the notes per second would be exactly 10.35 notes per second. I do not imagine that I will see a dancer attempting a Mazurka at this tempo. In fact, find the Polish National Anthem, and hit the 2X button. "Go ahead, make my day". - Clint Eastwood Evaluating tempi by "feel" is subjective, and since an "emotional value" has been placed on a piece of music for whatever reason is the evaluators own, the real "objective" musicologist will look at an historical work this way: By using maths and comparing "apples to apples". I cannot help Tomasz any sooner than I can convince one that happiness and sorrow are "not real"; however, I can convince the truth-seeker who is searching for historical tempi by means of a process. The only conclusion is that this M.M. Dott'd Minim = 69 must be played in wholebeat. Formulary: "Measures per Minute" sampling: n=number of measures; s=number of seconds; then: 60n/s=Measures per Minute. "Notes per Second": M=measures per minute; v=smallest note value; then: Mv/60=Notes per Second.
Hi, I'm also Polish. Could you please share links to recordings you checked? Because 'mazurka' is not really a dance but the term used to call stylized polish dances in a triple time (for example in Chopin's music). As Tomasz Ritter said, there are three dances - 'mazur', 'oberek' (both are performed in a quick tempo) and 'kujawiak' (this is a slow one). I believe that Chopin used one of quicker ones for the last movement of this concerto (in the Concerto in E minor he used 'krakowiak' wchich is also a quick dance in 2/4 time). And when it comes to the Polish National Anthem it is usually a bit slower than a real 'mazur' because it just has to be singable. I'm not going to argue with you, I'm just curious :)
@@mateuszg4815 sure thanks for the feedback. It was a documentary that comes up immediately in a search for mazurka. I am on my phone so I need to get back to my computer first. Still what's the notes per second as you remember the fast mazurka? Do you think the Chopin sounds better 2X? My wife danced them, and she said 69 to the bar in halfbeat is impossible. What are your thoughts? I am very happy you care enough to ask. And I mean this honestly. Thank you.
@@thomashughes4859 of course with this performance I cannot say it sounds bad or unmusical in that tempo but, to be honest, I prefer it to be performed faster because it brings me more acurate emotions and is coherent with my knowledge about mazurkas. I had the opportunity to watch many concerts where the polish folk music was performed by traditional folk musicians and dancers and I also took part in some dance workshops - music was really fast and I cannot agree 69 in halfbeat is impossible, I've danced it in such a tempo :D Mazur and oberek are often really fiery and rapid dances and are supposed to make the crowd more flying than just flowing. I've even heard an anecdote that formerly in countrysides of the Eastern Europe, also in Poland, during parties the dance was treated like a substitute of the alcohol because it was to expensive and people just used to get drunk with the dance :) Here you can see a performance of the Mazur from the 'Straszny dwór' (The Haunted Manor) which is an opera by the other polish composer of the Romantic-era, Stanisław Moniuszko ua-cam.com/video/CflLmcyqtWY/v-deo.html
Tomasz won the 1st International Chopin Competition on Period Instruments, and performed the Concerto in front of an audience with little difficulty, very closely to the tempo written in the score as interpreted in Half Beat. He erroneously categorized it as a form of Mazurka, which it is not in its entirety, its dominant accent is on the first beat-- which is not to say that if it were a Mazurka, it would be indicative of anything. Using a folk dance attributed wrongly to a piece of art music is insufficient to justify overhauling the entire system of metronome readings from the 19th century.
@@mantictac Haven't overhauled a thing. The reverse is in fact what had happened. We know from the pendulum's discovery by Galileo exactly how to read it, and hooking it up to a motion works doesn't change that centuries-old understanding. The halfers overhauled a perfectly metric way of reading exactly the time period of any note value. Thank you for your feedback.
What makes this an historic reconstruction? Because the tempo is incredibly slow? You need only listen to students of Liszt to know what is within the parameters of historical tempi. If you enjoys slow tempi much slower than what is considered average tempi for todays standards as well of the standards of the performers who studied with composers and pianists who studied with composers, fine. Enjoy! But to title these posts as 'historical reconstruction' or 'Beethoven historically accurate tempo' is misleading, irresponsible and without enough factual evidence to support the claim.
Thank you ! I did suppose that it was some form of forte piano; But my interest was whether it was an early Viennese forte piano(say a Fritz or Walter from the first quarter of the 19th Century) , or perhaps a later Mid Century piano by say Pleyel or even Broadwood . I always thought that the "Authentic Sound" alliance would have found it of interest/important to dot such "i"s and "t"s. Don't tell me I have misunderstood ! Regards......& to my ears, a beautiful rendition, by the way! Bill Huband - Herefordshire,England.
Hi Bill, as Roman said it is a Steinway, ca 1975 a nice 'neutral' instrument, wished we had a Pleyel for this and plans are for Wolfgang to come over and record some music on the Erard. But as for now, demonstrating the power of these kinds of musical reconstructions is what is necessary. Having someone like Wolfgang onboard is a huge plus for the 'movement', sure you'l feel the same way!
No. Just no. To certain point I liked to watch your videos, because they hit in the modern, "canon" interpretation and may make someone to think and discuss more. But the nonsense of this case is beyond. The 3rd movement alone destroys the ''theory". Have you (or the performer) ever heard what a Mazurka is? Well, it's a DANCE. And it should be more or less DANCEABLE. It has also some range of characters. It so happens that there are recordings of (some of the last) real Polish countryside musicians of the dances Mazur, Oberek and Kujawiak. They are NOT professionals, no academics, no 'single or double beat theorists'. Just the tradition of playing of simple people. Go listen to them. Anyway, this is only one of hundreds things wrong with this performance but it would take too long. Take care
I thought mazurkas were meant to have a rhythmically active 1st. beat? Is this 3rd. movement really intended to be a mazurka? It sound more like a waltz sometimes.
Yes. Look carefully at all the syncopations. The beggining is closer to kujawiak dance which may be a little misleading, as it is the 'calm version' of Mazurka (usually in minor) - it is not so strongly articulated, but still. But look att the tutti, and all the soli later on. They are different. Something closer to tipical Mazur you find in the A flat Major section. Look at the very finale - not even close to waltz. Although, listening to this performance you could really think that ;)
Sorry to read this had such an emotional impact on you Tomasz. Mazurka or Wals, in any case you have the original MM by Chopin, it is either this tempo or double. In that way, these metronome indications are treasures of information. Even the way dances are danced and played evolved, so for instance known dances as the Walse have seen an increase in tempo as well, read for instance Böhme, Geschichte des Tanzes in Deutschland, 1886.
Hi Tomasz, now we know how rendition of Chopin's concert sounds like after smoking big pot of weed. btw, i enjoy your performance last year during Chopin's piano competition.
1 2 what is the difference between a pianoforte and a fortepiano? (Not a joke, though it might be a “leading question” for one.... ) I’m seriously inquiring.... and can Google later, if necessary
@@dougr.2398 It's a modern term used to mean old, as in antique, or old-style Viennese style pianos that came out of the HIP movement. The term was used interchangeably throughout history from the time the piano was first built. If you think about it, back in the olden days they must've played loud-soft keyboard instruments instead of soft-loud ones as we do today. :-) The original term for was piano e forte according to Cristofori who built the first pianoforte so he should know. I found this out from the Michael Frederick of the Frederick Collection (I must visit there again soon!) www.frederickcollection.org The collection is only an hours drive from my house.
@@dougr.2398 Close... J/K. Historically Informed Performance. Something that started in the 70s and 80s. Out of this movement came squeaky string instruments, and play everything on the harpsichord cuz clavichords don't count. Then there's the performance practices where anything old is anything goes, play everything detached whether it can be that way or not, play only stepped dynamics, and play everything fast.
This is unbearable and makes absolutely no sense, not historically nor musically. Nice tempo for practising... Look at concert programs of those days. Besides there are programs of concerts by Alkan, great friend of Chopin, with the by Alkan annotated timing for each individual piece (also Chopin pieces): normal use of the metronome markings... No reason to believe Alkan would play the pieces of his revered friend Chopin double as fast as Chopin played them.
@@kojiattwood I am unsure if you were forced to listen, friend. If this isn't your cup of tea, try drinking coffee or something a bit stronger. Excruciating is not an approprate word for this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself.
@@kojiattwood You do play the piano so give it a try. Try playing at whole beat. It really doesn't hurt ya know. ;-) Since you think in single-beat (half-beat time), try playing the movements at the actual printed metronome markings an tell us how you did. Let us know and we'll take a look because links posted here, by anyone but a moderator, gets pulled by UA-cam. We'll gladly listen and let you know how accurate your time is. In case you're wondering there's a lot of research going on here into historic tempos and performance practices, and there's still a lot of stuff that's still in the queues to be learned. Music isn't all about speed. That is only a tiny, ever so tiny part of the whole shebang, but unfortunately the only thing people focus on these days. [ Moderator hat on] Just to let you know, we keep any discussion here fact-based and refrain from any ad hominem remarks as explained in the channel's community guidelines. ua-cam.com/video/MSDc5hRX8hg/v-deo.html And if you don't like something about a performance, you might want to watch this excellent video as well on critique... ua-cam.com/video/-Rn07Hb5hJY/v-deo.html [/Moderator hat off]
I love this tempo. U can really savor the music notes. Wish I could play this well.
Now I finally understand why Chopin like to notate elaborate runs like that. He could have just note them accordingly to rhythmic timings. It's because at that tempo then only Chopin embellished the void with elaborate runs.
It makes a lot more musical sense played this way.
This is lovely. The notes are clear. The harmony audible. Since it new to me I cannot comment on tempi. It is very beautiful and restful.
Glad you like it!
So beautiful... Never want to hear a Chopin piece played in modern tempo ever again.. Thank you so much for all of your amazing content, really appreciate it! :)
Agreed! And I cannot now ... I think I'm going to have a sale on 1,000's of worthless CDs!
@@thomashughes4859 You won't be the only person doing that!
@@Rollinglenn HAHA!!!!! Right? I cringe now ... :D
Those complaining about it being too slow, did you even realised how much was omitted by professional players with regards to the notes written, the accents, the runs, the ornaments. Maybe it should a little faster, but not double this speed.
It's interesting to consider the tempi and revisiting the metronome markings. However, there is a vast body of evidence that would indicate that this half-tempo approach to interpreting metronome markings is completely inaccurate: gramophone records made from pianists in the lineage stemming from the composers themselves.
Many of Liszt's pupils made records - they were taught directly by the composer. Several of Chopin's pupils taught pianists who recorded: Alfred Cortot and Raoul Koczalski are two pianists whose teachers studied directly with Chopin himself. If we want to go further back a bit, the legendary teacher Theodor Leschetizky taught many of the great pianists who recorded in the first half of the 20th century: Artur Schnabel, Benno Moiseiwitsch, Ignaz Friedman, and many others... Leschetizky studied with Czerny, who studied with Beethoven, and when he was a child, Leschetizy performed with Mozart's SON conducting.
I can't imagine that anyone who studied with Beethoven, Chopin, and Liszt would not communicate a way to observe the tempo markings since they would have learned this from the composer themselves. And yet not ONE of these performers who made gramophone records interprets at the speed that is found in your videos. Not ONE. There is a 1948 concert recording of Koczalski playing this Chopin Concerto (which ironically in this video is in the solo arrangement by Mikuli, the Chopin pupil whom Koczalski studied with) and he plays at what today might be considered a 'normal' tempo... The interesting thing, however, is that today tempi are in fact slower than they often were with pianists trained in the 19th century: Josef Hofmann's speed in Chopin works (the E-Flat Nocturne is under 4 minutes) is quite legendary, and these were pianists who were trained at the time that these works were relatively new.
So where are we to believe that the 'break' from the composer's own approach - given that they taught pupils who then taught other pupils - took place? When not a single pianist born in the 19th century, not one who studied with a Chopin pupil (and we also have recordings by Francis Planté from 1928 - and he had heard Chopin play when he himself was a child) plays with this kind of tempo? Certainly amongst pianists on record there is a range of tempi - that is within the scope of individuality that was the norm amongst musicians of the time - but there is not one recording that I've heard (and I've been studying them for 30 years) that indicates that there is any credence to this approach to reading metronome markings.
I'm all for revisiting approaches to looking at the score and commend you for that - it's a large part of what I do (the fact that certain expectations were not marked by composers because it was known at the time that a performer would do it) in my approach to interpretation via historical recordings - but one has to examine the actual 'living' evidence that exists in being able to hear the actual playing by performers who studied in the lineage of the great composers whose works we still revere and perform today.
These recordings reflect a performance tradition that already neglected metronome number indications, especially with records, where it’s cheaper to produce a faster recording. Just because, for example, Clara Schumann’s students recorded pieces in tempi close to the single beat reading, does not mean they used a single beat reading as a starting point. Performances already sped up in the first half of the 19th century, due to demand by audiences. Records reflect only that demand, not a authentic reconstruction of the composers intent
We know that Holst increased the tempo of his music when it was recorded due to limitations of recording equipment. Mars 1926 is recorded far quicker than any reading of the score read suggests. And Jupiter is quicker than it is today too.
ua-cam.com/video/lsBdREh9UEw/v-deo.html
What would have happened without the then necessary compromises. Just because the orchestra can play it at that tempo and did play it at that tempo does not mean that was the original intention. And maybe Holst was not a 'good' conductor.
And despite this recording being 42 minutes, much faster than today's performances, people in the comments section still call it 'dull'. Authentic is 'dull'.
And dont forget the planets was originally written for 2 pianos, not orchestra! And playing it at any tempo is very difficult.
The mention of Francis Plante actually favours the authentic tempo argument. His 1928 recording of several Chopin etudes adopted tempi 'a great deal slower than the metronome markings' according to James Methuen-Campbell (Lord Methuen'). Old age has been offered as an explanation of the slow tempi, but the playing was not clumsy at all. Indeed, it was a model of clarity and poetry, and put the erratic but inspired Cortot, who was a lot younger, to shame.
@@JaseBach plante in recordins 89 years...
Fact of the matter is, there are so many evidences that also counteract this logic. Many interviews of performers taught by the composers mentioning how they did absolutely everything different from their teachers. Both ways of performing existed at one point at the same time, so both theories are valid.
Il tempo contribuisce a definire la grandezza di un’artista che ha lasciato un segno nella storia e dobbiamo essere orgogliosi per questi esecuzioni.Grazie Maestro per gli ascolti che ci propone.
Please make more Chopin videos ! He's very artistic and deep in feelings ! Thanks
Herr Weller spielt die meiste Musik in Vollschlag. Obwohl er nur auf zeitgenössischen Instrumenten spielt, ist er damit den Originalen näher als die vielen Vertreter der historisch informierten Aufführungspraxis.
It makes so much more sense at this tempo!
No it does not.
It sounds a bit out of place in this Modern World but at this Pace........the ears can "digest to the heart's content" every Chordal motion, melodic shift...."Impressive".....great work done here, keep up the good work and thanks for your contribution to "the Art of making Good Music".
Following the score I kept trying to speed up. Just listening to it was wonderful. Great job. Thanks.
one needs a little time to get rid of hearing habits, totally understandable
There`s just too many details that are missed when played fast. I like this.
Beautiful! Guitar, bass and viol are my instruments, so the piano repertoire is foriegn, aside from my study at university. This recording reveals beauty to this piece that I was not aware of. Not played to win a competition, but to reveal the beauty of the universe through music.
💚
Thank you Wim for bringing this superb performance to the light.. this Concerto is just soo beautiful.. it is so slavic/folklor/nature like, at the same time being extremaly aristocratic it also is kind of dark/full of sorrow, but still elegant.. almost every pianists i've heard run through this piece like crazy, and the meaning of it is somehow lost imho...
After listening to Maestoso when it finished i just closed my eyes and when the Larghetto started after few bars, when the main theme appeared i must tell you guys that i guess the first time since a long time i had shivers and it almost brought tears to my eyes.. such an emotional atomic bomb..Absolutely genius..
I'm writing this comment while listening to Allegro Vivace it suits the whole thing beautifully..
If you listen to this music with proper attention and focus the katharsis feeling must be there after all :)
All the best in doing great job with double-beat research, and collaborations !
God bless you all.
Greetings from Poland.
Cheers !
Very pleasing and Warm sound, the tempo show Other perspective for the piece. Very nice
Absolutely awesome!!!
Thanks!!
Thanks!
thank you!
Thank you!
It's way too slow for me. But nevertheless, interesting experiment.
̶A̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶t̶l̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶t̶ ̶b̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶.̶ Speaking seriously, performing is also psychological. You have to think also in your audience. Who would stand so slow concertos sitting in a concert hall?
@@gruatremi have you heard the name of director Hans Knappertbusch?
Omg I loved the 2nd movement!
Congratulations for the work of you all in preserving the unmeasureable value of truth in classical music! I guess that the Classical world has been contaminated with undue freneticism that has become accepted and thus it forms basis of "crazy" works of breakneck speeds and intranquility. That could explain some excesses of the 20th century output. It is a big shame that people are deprived of listening to pleasureable classical music. If I had a dollar for every lay person who has told me that they don't understand such music because it sounds too intense or harsh when played as it is nowadays...
The interesting part, though, is that speeding seems to be a natural component of information consolidation and repetition.
Naxos and similarly encyclopedic enterprises should find a niche now to promote this rediscovery. And maybe even DG will budge. This has to be welcomed by artists, not derided but seen even as a commercial opportunity.
amazing!
Everything makes sense in these tempos! Every phrase lasts just as long as composer thought
Hi, do you have the accurate piano sheet for the 2nd movement? Especially the left hand chords played by left hand in the middle part! Thanks a lot !!!
you'll find it on IMSLP!
The whole beat theory of the metronome certainly gives us an opening movement here that is consistent with "maestoso." And I can buy the tempo for the larghetto, too. But the last movement is problematic for me, as I don't think "allegro vivace" can be achieved at this tempo. I do understand that "vivace" is not a tempo indicator, and also that I'm not able to hear with 1830 ears, a time when a horse cantering at 12-15 mph was something going pretty darn fast.
Hi Gregory, the last movement is in a tempo that would be a slow Waltz
@@tifsa Finally someone points out the obvious...
Good practicing tempo.
rubinsteinway lol
6:55
its actual nice to hear the voicings for this ....sometimes there's a argument for slowing down
The length of this video is quite interesting -- less than 50 minutes. If it really should have been played 2x faster then it should take give or take 25 minutes. Most of current performances are about 35 mins. Maybe the current pianists begin to realize that they're just too fast. Or just unknowingly adhere to Chopin indications most of the time.
indeed there is no such thing as a 'single beat' practice, that will remain a theoretical concept forever
Otto Neitzel (1852-1920) - Chopin: Piano Concerto no.2, mov 3 (abridged arranged excerpt): ua-cam.com/video/_uChzq8CxZ8/v-deo.html
Here is Cortot playing it at or near the MM tempo. ua-cam.com/video/V6PblZpG-2o/v-deo.html
Much love to y'all
Only for Chopin.
Very interesting! (No, not channelling Arte Johnson!).... while a trifle laborious, every note can be followed in the score (just about) and much greater attention can be paid to the Harmony, chromatic sonority and structure of the piece. Of course, the sparkle and scintillation of modern break-neck speed is lacking, but the pace of life, while indeed swifter than we often wish to be aware of, benefits by attention to detail and knowing what one and others are doing!
Reading along with this is a bit like attending a Master Class!! Very rich in détail and nuances!
This is very nice! Are you the one playing the piece in this video?
Sadly, a Pole (Tomasz is the Polish spelling), did not like the third movement, and suggested that this was a Mazurka.
Unfortunately for him, only TWO choices exist for the tempo of this piece: M.M. Dott'd Minim = 69 (per beat) or M.M. Dott'd Minim = 69 (per time period), i.e., Halfbeat vs. Wholebeat. Playing this particular Kullak edition, no other interpretations are allowed lest you are playing your own interpretation, history be damned.
Thesis: The wholebeat tempo is the only one available to us.
Let's compare the tempi, shall we?
I found "Mazurka - a renowned dance from Poland | Euromaxx" on UA-cam, which I found to be reputable. If any Poles wish to challenge the tempi of the dances I saw, we'll argue this point first (authenticity is paramount). If not, then we proceed.
The four samples I took (see below for the formula I used - challenge it if you will) had "Measures per Minute" (MPM) of between 51.948 and 63.943. In 3/4, the fastest note value was the quaver. There might have been an ornamental semiquaver and a semiquaver rest, which would need to be preserved (notably honoured in the music). I have pulled two Mazurkas from my own library and found these note values to be accurate. The Polish National Anthem - itself a Mazurka - was only 36.309 MPM!!!
The third movement of this Chopin Professor Weller played was 34.5 measures per minute. The minimum note values here are triplet quavers, which means that instead of the 6 quavers per measure of the Mazurkas I sampled, this one has NINE!
So, how do we compare that? With notes per second. (see formula below) Including the Polish National Anthem and the fastest dance tempi I sampled, the range is: 3.631 - 6.3943 notes per second. The third movement is played at 5.175 notes per second. This is 0.16235 notes per second higher than the average samples. Now, if Wolfgang Weller played this piece at halfbeat, the notes per second would be exactly 10.35 notes per second. I do not imagine that I will see a dancer attempting a Mazurka at this tempo. In fact, find the Polish National Anthem, and hit the 2X button. "Go ahead, make my day". - Clint Eastwood
Evaluating tempi by "feel" is subjective, and since an "emotional value" has been placed on a piece of music for whatever reason is the evaluators own, the real "objective" musicologist will look at an historical work this way: By using maths and comparing "apples to apples".
I cannot help Tomasz any sooner than I can convince one that happiness and sorrow are "not real"; however, I can convince the truth-seeker who is searching for historical tempi by means of a process.
The only conclusion is that this M.M. Dott'd Minim = 69 must be played in wholebeat.
Formulary:
"Measures per Minute" sampling: n=number of measures; s=number of seconds; then: 60n/s=Measures per Minute.
"Notes per Second": M=measures per minute; v=smallest note value; then: Mv/60=Notes per Second.
Hi, I'm also Polish. Could you please share links to recordings you checked? Because 'mazurka' is not really a dance but the term used to call stylized polish dances in a triple time (for example in Chopin's music). As Tomasz Ritter said, there are three dances - 'mazur', 'oberek' (both are performed in a quick tempo) and 'kujawiak' (this is a slow one). I believe that Chopin used one of quicker ones for the last movement of this concerto (in the Concerto in E minor he used 'krakowiak' wchich is also a quick dance in 2/4 time). And when it comes to the Polish National Anthem it is usually a bit slower than a real 'mazur' because it just has to be singable. I'm not going to argue with you, I'm just curious :)
@@mateuszg4815 sure thanks for the feedback. It was a documentary that comes up immediately in a search for mazurka. I am on my phone so I need to get back to my computer first. Still what's the notes per second as you remember the fast mazurka? Do you think the Chopin sounds better 2X? My wife danced them, and she said 69 to the bar in halfbeat is impossible. What are your thoughts? I am very happy you care enough to ask. And I mean this honestly. Thank you.
@@thomashughes4859 of course with this performance I cannot say it sounds bad or unmusical in that tempo but, to be honest, I prefer it to be performed faster because it brings me more acurate emotions and is coherent with my knowledge about mazurkas. I had the opportunity to watch many concerts where the polish folk music was performed by traditional folk musicians and dancers and I also took part in some dance workshops - music was really fast and I cannot agree 69 in halfbeat is impossible, I've danced it in such a tempo :D Mazur and oberek are often really fiery and rapid dances and are supposed to make the crowd more flying than just flowing. I've even heard an anecdote that formerly in countrysides of the Eastern Europe, also in Poland, during parties the dance was treated like a substitute of the alcohol because it was to expensive and people just used to get drunk with the dance :)
Here you can see a performance of the Mazur from the 'Straszny dwór' (The Haunted Manor) which is an opera by the other polish composer of the Romantic-era, Stanisław Moniuszko ua-cam.com/video/CflLmcyqtWY/v-deo.html
Tomasz won the 1st International Chopin Competition on Period Instruments, and performed the Concerto in front of an audience with little difficulty, very closely to the tempo written in the score as interpreted in Half Beat. He erroneously categorized it as a form of Mazurka, which it is not in its entirety, its dominant accent is on the first beat-- which is not to say that if it were a Mazurka, it would be indicative of anything. Using a folk dance attributed wrongly to a piece of art music is insufficient to justify overhauling the entire system of metronome readings from the 19th century.
@@mantictac Haven't overhauled a thing. The reverse is in fact what had happened. We know from the pendulum's discovery by Galileo exactly how to read it, and hooking it up to a motion works doesn't change that centuries-old understanding. The halfers overhauled a perfectly metric way of reading exactly the time period of any note value. Thank you for your feedback.
10:1 Like ratio! Wim, your audience is 90% class! Great work, Professor Weller!
What makes this an historic reconstruction? Because the tempo is incredibly slow? You need only listen to students of Liszt to know what is within the parameters of historical tempi. If you enjoys slow tempi much slower than what is considered average tempi for todays standards as well of the standards of the performers who studied with composers and pianists who studied with composers, fine. Enjoy! But to title these posts as 'historical reconstruction' or 'Beethoven historically accurate tempo' is misleading, irresponsible and without enough factual evidence to support the claim.
Thank you ! I did suppose that it was some form of forte piano; But my interest was whether
it was an early Viennese forte piano(say a Fritz or Walter from the first quarter of the 19th Century) , or perhaps a later Mid Century piano by say Pleyel or even Broadwood . I always
thought that the "Authentic Sound" alliance would have found it of interest/important to
dot such "i"s and "t"s. Don't tell me I have misunderstood !
Regards......& to my ears, a beautiful rendition, by the way!
Bill Huband - Herefordshire,England.
It's a Steinway
@@reflechant
Thank you.....As I suspected! - so much for "Authentic Sound" !
Hi Bill, as Roman said it is a Steinway, ca 1975 a nice 'neutral' instrument, wished we had a Pleyel for this and plans are for Wolfgang to come over and record some music on the Erard. But as for now, demonstrating the power of these kinds of musical reconstructions is what is necessary. Having someone like Wolfgang onboard is a huge plus for the 'movement', sure you'l feel the same way!
Wich Pianoforte ??
Kind of Édard, think...
No. Just no. To certain point I liked to watch your videos, because they hit in the modern, "canon" interpretation and may make someone to think and discuss more. But the nonsense of this case is beyond. The 3rd movement alone destroys the ''theory". Have you (or the performer) ever heard what a Mazurka is? Well, it's a DANCE. And it should be more or less DANCEABLE. It has also some range of characters. It so happens that there are recordings of (some of the last) real Polish countryside musicians of the dances Mazur, Oberek and Kujawiak. They are NOT professionals, no academics, no 'single or double beat theorists'. Just the tradition of playing of simple people. Go listen to them.
Anyway, this is only one of hundreds things wrong with this performance but it would take too long. Take care
One of the best Chopin players ever.😊
I thought mazurkas were meant to have a rhythmically active 1st. beat? Is this 3rd. movement really intended to be a mazurka? It sound more like a waltz sometimes.
Yes. Look carefully at all the syncopations. The beggining is closer to kujawiak dance which may be a little misleading, as it is the 'calm version' of Mazurka (usually in minor) - it is not so strongly articulated, but still. But look att the tutti, and all the soli later on. They are different. Something closer to tipical Mazur you find in the A flat Major section. Look at the very finale - not even close to waltz. Although, listening to this performance you could really think that ;)
Sorry to read this had such an emotional impact on you Tomasz. Mazurka or Wals, in any case you have the original MM by Chopin, it is either this tempo or double. In that way, these metronome indications are treasures of information. Even the way dances are danced and played evolved, so for instance known dances as the Walse have seen an increase in tempo as well, read for instance Böhme, Geschichte des Tanzes in Deutschland, 1886.
Hi Tomasz, now we know how rendition of Chopin's concert sounds like after smoking big pot of weed. btw, i enjoy your performance last year during Chopin's piano competition.
First Runner Up!
Please - what is the instrument ?
1 2 what is the difference between a pianoforte and a fortepiano? (Not a joke, though it might be a “leading question” for one.... ) I’m seriously inquiring.... and can Google later, if necessary
@@dougr.2398 It's a modern term used to mean old, as in antique, or old-style Viennese style pianos that came out of the HIP movement.
The term was used interchangeably throughout history from the time the piano was first built. If you think about it, back in the olden days they must've played loud-soft keyboard instruments instead of soft-loud ones as we do today. :-)
The original term for was piano e forte according to Cristofori who built the first pianoforte so he should know. I found this out from the Michael Frederick of the Frederick Collection (I must visit there again soon!) www.frederickcollection.org The collection is only an hours drive from my house.
John Citron HIP movement? This was LONG before Elvis!! Or Health Insurance Plans!!!(aka extortion! :) )
@@dougr.2398 Close... J/K. Historically Informed Performance. Something that started in the 70s and 80s. Out of this movement came squeaky string instruments, and play everything on the harpsichord cuz clavichords don't count. Then there's the performance practices where anything old is anything goes, play everything detached whether it can be that way or not, play only stepped dynamics, and play everything fast.
John Citron £0£!! & :-O
This is unbearable and makes absolutely no sense, not historically nor musically. Nice tempo for practising... Look at concert programs of those days. Besides there are programs of concerts by Alkan, great friend of Chopin, with the by Alkan annotated timing for each individual piece (also Chopin pieces): normal use of the metronome markings... No reason to believe Alkan would play the pieces of his revered friend Chopin double as fast as Chopin played them.
Great @ 1.25x
The 3rd movement was particularly excruciating at this "tempo"
@@kojiattwood I am unsure if you were forced to listen, friend. If this isn't your cup of tea, try drinking coffee or something a bit stronger. Excruciating is not an approprate word for this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself.
@@thomashughes4859 not to worry, I'm not a complete masochist. Stopped after two minutes 😁😀
@@kojiattwood That's why she dumped you!
@@kojiattwood You do play the piano so give it a try. Try playing at whole beat. It really doesn't hurt ya know. ;-)
Since you think in single-beat (half-beat time), try playing the movements at the actual printed metronome markings an tell us how you did. Let us know and we'll take a look because links posted here, by anyone but a moderator, gets pulled by UA-cam. We'll gladly listen and let you know how accurate your time is.
In case you're wondering there's a lot of research going on here into historic tempos and performance practices, and there's still a lot of stuff that's still in the queues to be learned. Music isn't all about speed. That is only a tiny, ever so tiny part of the whole shebang, but unfortunately the only thing people focus on these days.
[ Moderator hat on]
Just to let you know, we keep any discussion here fact-based and refrain from any ad hominem remarks as explained in the channel's community guidelines.
ua-cam.com/video/MSDc5hRX8hg/v-deo.html
And if you don't like something about a performance, you might want to watch this excellent video as well on critique...
ua-cam.com/video/-Rn07Hb5hJY/v-deo.html
[/Moderator hat off]
Historically it may be correct. And that's all.