I consider the Tuvix episode the ultimate note on transporter tech period; if the "conscious being" is only fully manifest in the "physical body" - then every time someone steps into that chamber and is completely torn apart - murder is committed and a new life is created at the other end (another trek possibility is that the conscious is quantum linked to the physical, then you are just "relinking" a pointer - I feel like IRL is different than either case) search "trek transporter murder"
@@leoismylastname “Execution” used to be a euphemism for killing someone. It also means “the act of performing or accomplishing”. Similarly, “Undertaker” used to mean someone who does (undertakes) a specified action. when a Shakespearean character says, in accepting the challenge of a duel, “I’ll be your undertaker”, no threat of death is implied.
The actress who played Leah Brahms was in the running for Janeway. I can see the memes if she'd gotten it: FLED 70,000 LIGHT YEARS TO GET AWAY FROM GEORDI'S STALKING
Hugh was in two episodes of TNG (three if you count Descent parts I and II separately). I think that qualifies as "recurring". But I agree, Icheb deserved much better.
I grew up hating Kirk's death in Generations. It felt pointless to me.... that he dies on a "nameless" planet that is completely meaningless in the "big picture." But in my later years, I have come to realize that this is almost a perfect synopsis of what Kirk and "old school" Star Trek stand for. It doesn't matter that the Viridian system is some meaningless backwater, home to a pre-warp society. Kirk lays down his life to protect that planet and that society because that is what his morals (and the overall message of Trek) demands. He leaves the "paradise" of the Nexus and pays the ultimate price because that IS who he is. PS- Yes the cabin scene between Kirk and Picard is fantastic, and Picard should have REMEMBERED what Kirk tells him. "Don't let them promote you. Don't let them do ANYTHING to take you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there.... you can make a difference." How much "difference" did ADMIRAL Picard end up making? Exactly. Should have listened, Jean-Luc.
Wasn't it a nod to V when Kirk said he'd always known he'd die alone? Yes, Picard hears his last breaths, but he does meet his end alone in a ditch and apart from his friends.
Without Rikers's Minuet we wouldn't have got Geordie's Leah Brahms & without that we would not have got Reg Barclay - one of the best recurring characters in all of Star Trek.
The Dax thing was a total waste. There was a war. All they had to do was promote her to Commander and give her a ship. Then she could've been gone for episodes at a time. Petty by the producers.
The actress who played the original one left to be on Becker. I agree they didn't need to introduce a useless character as her replacement symbiont. But I'm sure the producers were mad that she quit.
@@michaelmcneely9169 Yeah, no. That's definitely not what happened. They literally explain it in the video itself. Farrell asked for a reduced schedule - moving her to recurring instead of starring. The showrunners (i.e., Berman) said no, didn't re-up her contract, and they killed her off outright. That's why the original commenter said what he did - the recurring status shouldn't have been an issue because there was an easy way to work it. Again, literally explained in the video.
The Tuvix decision is possibly one of my favorite Trek moments. It's a genuine no-win scenario. Janeway basically had to turn off her heart and go completely stone cold to undo the accident. Even more cruelly, I seem to remember Tuvix being "alive" for quite a while before they tore him apart. A story like this hinges entirely on the casting of "the accident", and I really think actor Tom Wright pulled off a minor miracle making him immediately likable. And that really helps make the decision so damned impossible.
Steve Shives made a great video about the Tuvix episode a short while ago: ua-cam.com/video/QRFWqTQ7xJ0/v-deo.html& IMO, it's terrible writing which really hurts Janeway's character. And even more so because it is never ever mentioned again (general problem of VOY). It should never have happened.
I look and everyone is teary eyed kver Tuvix...what about Neelix and Tuvok...they wasnt even able to speak for themselves they were changed without warning or anything and everyone was ok woth this because we got this cutesy new person 😒 #ISupportJaneway lmao!
On paper, the idea of fusing two characters seems silly. But Tom Wright really sells it. Not only does he convince the audience he’s both Tuvok and Neelix, he manages to create a character more likable than the other two. IMO, this is the real reason people hated Janeway’s decision. The fans hated Neelix and Tuvok wasn’t that interesting. The ending forces us to give up a character we like in exchange for two we don’t.
Geordi was kind of stupid about holograms in general. He didn't mean to make the Brahms hologram romantic anymore than he meant to make Moriarty take over the ship.
Everyone in whole galaxy was stupid with the holodeck, especially the writers. You would think after a while someone in the federation would say "hey you know that thing we use mostly for leisure and training exercises that's always breaking and trying to kill us? Maybe we should stop using that".
@@jamesstephens3222 That would have been all fair and well if he didn't project imaginary Brahams on real Leah Brahams who had every right to be creeped out the way he kept acting like he knew her.
@@matzemunz2827 Yeah it's sad that the writers didn't make Tasha a good charakter. At least we later get Worf as a good security chief/tactical officer and Tashas Daugther Sela
Rick Berman's insistence that Generations come out the same calendar year as the series ended is, to me at least, the key reason Generations doesn't work. It's not *AS* bad as a lot of people make it out to be, but it could've been a lot better had the writers been given even just 3 more months to work on the script.
The "killing off" (because that's really what it was) of the Enterprise-D and the Picard/Kirk vs. Soran scenes needed a lot of work. Otherwise it's a pretty good movie. I don't have a problem with Kirk's death as much as I do with what an incompetent bumbling idiot they make Picard look like in setting it up.
I think the Dominion War is just the next morally logical step for the Federation to take in light of the Borg situation - reminds me of what Q said in that episode when referring to the Borg: "If you can't handle a bloody nose, you might as well crawl back into your bed" - the Federation needed to be prepared for war against whatever hostile alien force is out there. If only Q came back to DS9 to remind them (and the fans) about that as foreshadowing
East Meets West Presents the lack of Q throughout the different shows and seasons as a random reoccurring character is far too real. But hey we got Michael Skywalker now
The Dominion War shows the Federation considers their values and freedom to be something worth defending from those who want to destroy them. But the detractors apparently feel it's more noble to simply roll over and allow people to smash your face in with their boot, enslaving the Federation and destroying those values they claim to be important.
Killing Hugh did not "serve its purpose". This moment was empty and devoid of purpose, and that is the very reason why it is so infuriating. This was one of the many moments that ruined Picard for me.
Captain Jonathan Archer faced a similar situation to that of Captain Janeway in "Tuvix": In the Enterprise episode "Similitude", Trip Tucker is severely injured, and requires special treatment if if he is to have any chance for survival. Dr Phlox persuades Captain Archer to create a clone of Trip, who becomes known as Sim. Sim is born, grows up, learns, and is essentially an issue exact copy of Trip Tucker. When the time comes to perform the transplant surgery necessary to save Trip, Dr Phlox discovers Sim will die if he goes through with the procedure. Captain Archer is then faced with the hard decision of whether to let Sim live, or have his old friend Trip come back.
This might have been the best video out of TrekCulture. Well done! (Side Note: I rather enjoy Discovery season 3... not sure why the series gets so much hate in comment sections, now that it's actually going somewhere and no one sits around anymore internally screaming about the lack of spore drives later in the timeline, and the acting is, imo, so much better...or the writing doesn't distract from it now, whichever the case.)
There's actually a religion that is against Discovery. It all began before it came out, as people complained about how Gene's (or whoever drew it) first sketch of a ship for TOS looked too ugly to become the main ship of the series.
No one was offended by jordi making a hologram of an engineer and then falling in love with it at the time the show came out that didn't become a problem until years later when people went completely bat shit crazy
@@ovi071 the torture was definitely pretty harsh. That may be the worst we’ve ever seen in Trek. It’s upsetting because you wanted better for the character. But is definitely makes you understand why Seven wants to kill them.
Sorry, but it's not a bad film at all. I'd argue its the better of the trilogy (Beyond was garbage by comparison, lacking JJ - or whomever's - careful touch). Khan was seductive and chilling in equal measures, Spock gets further depth, that lengthy badass fight at the end? Everything was great.
Changing the Klingon's look in Discovery. Burnham being Spock's step-sister. Picard being a fragile, broken old man in the Picard series where Starfleet hates him... for reasons. Sisko being "magic" and getting his magic friends to wipe out the Dominion fleet in the wormhole (as much as I love DS9, the magic wormhole aliens saving them was ridiculous).
Geordi gets unfair criticism. He didn't even intend to make the Leah hologram, the computer just assumed his intention. All he did was have the computer give it a personality. He worked with the hologram to solve a problem for a couple hours and shared one kiss, initiated by the program. Contrast with Seven, who I've never seen criticized for creating a hologram of a crewmate, with the express intention of sexual exploration, which she carried on an "affair" with for days if not weeks.
In The Lower Decks we learn that holodecks are mostly used only for sex. They have a "biofilter" that has to be cleaned from time to time that's mostly semen.
@@LegendX2010 LOL I originally had a blurb about DS9 before I edited it out, because while you're totally right IMO, reasonable minds could differ on whether that means holodecks on starfleet ships were mostly used for sex. The Lower Decks establishes clearly that yes, yes they are. But yeah, the fact that all decent people react to holosuite usage on DS9 as declasse, indicates that it was 100% sexual. Gene Rodenberry wanted even more sexualization of the Ferengi than he got btw... but he got a lot.
Well, "killing" Tuvix was really great thing to think about. If I had to make that call, what would I do? Every time I watch that episode, I feel unconfortable knowing what is going to happen... But it is a good way to show us what it means to be captain of a ship. Dealing with hard desicions is a part of the job...
10. Yes, it is a bad movie 9. Not enough fans watched or cared enough about STP to notice Hugh’s death. Those of us that did watch, fully anticipated such disrespect and bad writing. 8. It was more sad than divisive for the fans at the time. 7. Cannot disagree with how fans were and are divided on this, the greatest arc in Trek history. 6. Cannot disagree with how this upset some. 5. Kirk dying wasn’t divisive in itself, it was the lackluster way with which it played out. 4. Fuck STP 3. No one felt negative about this when this episode aired. It’s only when viewing this with modern eyes that Geordi becomes creepy. 2. Fuck “These Are The Voyages!” 1. Cannot disagree here though the argument has increased overtime and was less controversial at the time. However I do disagree with it’s placement at #1 as Janeway’s entire career as Capt is riddled with divisive moments ie: Endgame. Top slot should’ve been All of Kurtzman Era Trek with a special slot for Sarek suddenly advocating for violence over peace in “The Vulcan Hello” as well as several slots reserved for nearly everything Burnham.
RE: "3. No one felt negative about this when this episode aired. It’s only when viewing this with modern eyes that Geordi becomes creepy. " Speak for yourself. I felt it was creepy at the time.
The last point reminded me of the Enterprise episode where they make a clone Trip to harvest his organs in order to save the 'real' Trip. That episode had a warped morality.
@@SNoVa525 Yeup, it is not a bad film at all, it could however, have been a lot, lot better with just a few changes, including reshooting Spocks scream to name just one.
"Well, we're nine entries in, and there's nothing in this list from Voyager. I guess that just goes to show how it's won over all the people who were criticizing it in the--" (sees that Tuvix's death is #1) "Oh..."
when i first watched into darkness, leading up to kirk's death, i was just repeating out loud 'dont do it, dont do it', then the scream happened. i was very disappointed. biggest thing i am surprised wasnt mentioned is discovery's change to klingons. a culture built around warriors that rose up and killed their gods to a god obsessed race
Good list left out the episode where they clone trip on Enterprise. But that was kind of like the whole thing with a tuvix. I probably one of the most divisive things was Discovery changing the look of the Klingons I'm shocked that that wasn't on the list. I love Star Trek Discovery but even I had to say that there was no point in changing what was established look for the Klingons.
I’d say the Trip clone is less divisive as he would not have lived much longer anyway so it was more let him live a week and loose both or do what they did. Tuvix on the other hand would have lived a long time
I agree that janeway did the right thing as both tuvok and neelix both had loved ones but it wouldve been good to see Tuvix longer in a two part episode and let him expand a little bit more wouldve given a lot more oomph when tuvok and neelix were split again or even if both character gained a slight personality change as something they both gained as being part of tuvix making tuvok slightly more easy going gained from neelix and neelix slightly more logical from tuvok
I think the only Trek series I never got into was Enterprise. I get that a lot of people think Star Trek can only be a certain way, but I'm enjoying Discovery and Picard alongside reruns of TNG and DS9. I'm glad they're trying to update the style of storytelling for these new shows, because if you just did the same old format it'd be pretty dull and the similarity of shows like The Orville to that would mean they'd always be walking the line of self parody. These new shows with modern storytelling allow them to create compelling science fiction that reflects our societies' current concerns, as any good sci-fi should.
Enterprise never got the love and even the chance that it desperately needed and rightfully deserved, way too many close-minded and sour fanboys that I have heard at least a few say that they were never going to watch because they didn't want a prequel that would retcon (it didn't) everything that they knew and loved.
It's actually pretty important to note that even Captain Janeway was hesitant about separating Neelix and Tuvok back into individual people, thus ending Tuvix's existence But, she did so anyway as both Neelix and Tuvok had significant others in their lives, Neelix had Kes and Tuvok had T'Prel
The Dominion War was one of the *best* things ever on Star Trek. Kirk's death was the second. Janeway *murdered* Tuvix. "These Are the Voyages" was the *worst* final episode ever, big diservice to the characters and to the actors. They deserved much better.
I remember watching Voyager as a kid and that Tuvix episode came on. I never struggled so hard to determine what I felt was right about a situation like that in all my life. I do believe that was when I realized that Star Trek is supposed to be about more than starship battles and politics. To this day, I applaud those writers and the actors responsible.
No, I think most of the fanbase hates her character and she's the weak link in Discovery. She's the reason a lot of people don't care for Discovery. If people hated Picard or Sisko, that would severely hurt their respective series.
Yeah, I come down on the side of the admiral. Picard struts in like he owns the place after leaving. He hasn't done anything useful in a decade. And he demands that we give him a ship to go off on some half-cocked mission? You could tell that he and the admiral had a bad history together, so honestly speaking it was a totally logical scene.
The deaths of Hugh and Icheb in Picard turned me off to that show. Both of their deaths were poorly written and an insult to the beloved characters built up in their respective shows. Straight up bad writing.
Icheb, as a character, was fridged to give Seven motivation, which on its own is bad writing, but doing it this way also gives *us* a reason to hate his torturers, shows us how precarious a position the XB's are really in, and also conveniently negates ever having to call the original actor back.
@@leandrotami Oh come on. Data was so told to the end it hurt. and remember Time's Arrow: Data wanted to die eventually even back then. That said I didn't care for Icheb, but then again Voyager is the only trek show i'm not sure if I've seen all episodes. Some chars have an impact in very few appearences - Hugh is in 3 episodes of TNG, just one less than Lore.
One thing to note about Tuvix and the splitting him back into two beings. Somehow they ended up with an extra uniform of just the correct size for Neelix?
@@tkeating3 "The holodeck is for porn" meme was best demonstrated in the Orville. OK, it is not technically Star Trek, but it reminded me more of TNG than Discovery or Picard.
Geordi's big mistake was not deleting the Brahms hologram. Or at least reducing it to academic knowledge only. I'm surprised that TOS's Kirk/Uhura kiss and DS9's girl on girl kiss weren't at least on the list. I know that both were fairly divisive.
@@tkeating3 Farther down the list of reply's someone posted: "No one felt negative about this when this episode aired. It’s only when viewing this with modern eyes that Geordi becomes creepy. " To which I replied "Speak for yourself. I felt it was creepy at the time."
That also explains the wink Tripp gives Archer, before he is put into the "medical chamber" way better than just a "hey buddy everythings gone be alright"-wink. Tripp really goes through some shit in those books...
@@Amunre81 i just finished the novel "all the good men do" where Tucker is "killed" (even flashes forward to an older Jake Sisko/Nog going over Holo novels) tucker is undercover and made into a Romulan. its a good read.
Tuvix, was a great episode, I think this solidified (at least in my mind) that Janeway was the best Captain at making the hard decisions and selling her character to the audiences.
Killing Hugh was such a symbol of lazy writing. Just kill someone off to make things interesting cause... yeah cause since GoT and TWD started this, it has to be great right? Right? Riiiiight?
If I recall, Hugh was ALWAYS supposed to die, but in the original version he was going to be offed in the same episode in which he appeared! But everyone loved working with the actor and character so much, they gave him several episodes to work in.
The "Death" of Tuvix was a very big argument between me and my friends. You actually put the death of Trip in better perspective, since I refused to acknowledge the "final" episode of Entirtprise,
I can just repeat a point that Red Letter Media made about Kirk's death. The most revered and decorated officer in Starfleet history and you bury him under a pile of rocks. Not an ideal send off.
...who hate poor writing, disrespecting source material, and volunteer victims who treat the death of characters like a personal attack on their demographic.
I love the morality wrangling of the tuvix episode, and it is an impossible decision, murder the innocent new being or lose two integral members of an established crew. I liked how heavily it weighed on Janeway and how she took responsibility for the decision. That said, it would have been an incredibly bold move to have kept the tuvix character as a way of evolving the crew and show on their journey, perhaps a wasted opportunity, and a good way of having to live with consequences. Voyager was always at its best when grappling with "the correct thing to do is not always the right thing to do" plot lines
I think, there is a novel where they stated, that Trip never was killed. They took advantage of the story around that Riker was on the holodeck and making Trip a Section 31 Agent who infiltrates Romulus
@@Anthyrion You are right. The post-series Enterprise novels "fix" history. The claim is that Trip didn't die and that the history of that time was different. It was Nog who discovered it and went with it to Jake. This enabled them to create a series of novels. The important hing is that the crew of Enterprise thought he was dead the whole time.
Tuvix was a mistake by the transporter, not by birth, and this creation didn't have a personal history, but that of both the spliced members. Tuvok and Neelix existed prior with their life histories and thus was the correct path to go.
Gotta say - Benedict Cumberbatch should have just been John Harrison, the European "superman" of the Eugenics Wars (Khan being the Indo-Asian superman counterpart). He could have been discovered in a bunker beneath London in the Section 32 facility's construction excavation which was set up perfectly. It would have meant a Khan storyline for the alternate u. crew, a nod for fans to the Khan story without duplicating it, and would have been an excellent new Trek character. There's just no reason to re-do every. single. thing.
Ah yes, Geordi creates a holographic woman and he's a creep. Seven of Nine creates a holographic Chakotay and makes out with him and down the memory hole it goes (Janeway made a holo-boyfriend too). Also blowing up Vulcan/Romulus was pretty controversial as well as Spock's secret siblings.
I’m of two minds about Dax. I adore Jadzia and I dearly wished things could have been worked out to keep Farrell, but at the same time I love Ezri too, and I like that at the end, Ezri and Julian got together. And I frankly, don’t care what Roddenberry would’ve thought about the Dominion War. It was great, and it’s not like the Federation has never been at war before.
The character Michael Burnham is very divise which is very understandable. She either whispers or screams, she disobeys orders all the time and is always forgiven. She's arrogant and always portrayed as the one who knows exactly what must be done, and then it turns out that she was right. Super irritating.
You forgot the tears... (so many!) and the unhinged expressions. It's as if the character had never come of age on Vulcan! Sonequa Martin-Green deserves better writing.
@@bryanabbott6169 The show is forced. Notice how the background music never stops to allow viewers an opportunity to catch their breath or decide how they feel? I suspect one reason for this and the ADD plotting is so viewers cannot think too much about the writing.
Didn't she start off the show "Vulcan-like"? She was raised Vulcan and was emotionally detached... then became the most emotional officer in Starfleet.
Great list. I completely agree with the ones involving a character’s death (Jadzia, Hugh, Culber, Trip - not so much Kirk though as I didn’t have a connection with The Original Series when I watched Generations, but that’s more unique to my situation than to the divisiveness of the decision). Also the ethical questions of Geordi creating a holographic Leah Brahms and Janeway ‘killing’ Tuvix to bring back Tuvok and Neelix - but I loved both precisely because they raised ethical questions and dilemmas. I also really loved that Admiral Clancy dropped the F-Bomb (more than once!) towards Picard - definitely a “we’re not in Kansas anymore Toto” moment 🤣
You must have missed the concluding part of that sentence. “The only Star Trek main character who has died AND DID NOT RETURN.” Although Trip did die, he’s seen as a hologram. But of course he doesn’t return since it was the final episode. And Yar? What a mess! That dimwit Denise Crosby returns many times to the point of annoyance. First, as alternate timeline Yar, then as her own half-Romulan daughter. Frankly, I thought she never should have returned either. It’s obvious she regretted her decision to leave after TNG became a big hit and wanted to get back to the series in any way she could.
@@startounz While the information about the video you said is correct, your assessment of Denise Crosby's returns to TNG are retarded. Yesterday's Enterprise was a great sendoff for an underused character that was summarily killed off out of pique because Crosby wasn't happy at being underutilized. And Unification was a pleasant surprise of a return for her. Leaving TNG turned out to be a mistake, but given the overall quality of season one it's hard to fault her for looking at it and wanting out.
@@mattrobson3603 It’s really your comment on my assessment that’s retarded. There have been quite a number of instances where an actor or actress wants to quit a show early in its run. Nichelle Nichols herself wanted to quit TOS after season 1, but after meeting Martin King Jr., she decided to stay on as he said she represented a voice and presence for black people on television. And by staying on, she became an iconic character, particularly when she and Shatner participated in TV’s first interracial kiss. If Denise Crosby had simply given TNG some time, they might have given Tasha Yar better character development. She struggled to survive on a war torn colony and eventually became security chief on the Federation’s flagship. We saw a similar character on DS9 with Kira Nerys, who battled to free her homeworld from the Cardassians from a young age, and eventually became the space station’s first officer. And she of course, had significant character development over the show’s 7 seasons. By quitting so early on, Crosby blew it big time. And if you think about it, the death she suffered in season 1 occurred while she was in the line of duty, even though it was deemed senseless. Even though alternate timeline Yar was looking for a more honorable death looking to ride on the Enterprise-C’s historical sacrifice, her death was more of a low note since she became a Romulan’s concubine and ended up being executed after her own daughter betrays her. As for Sela, she was also a low note character, especially since she was never seen after the “Unification” 2-parter. All this mess was the reason Crosby should never have returned to TNG.
Oh. My. God. I just made a harmless comment. And now we have two people calling each other "retarded". In my opinion that's not very Star Trek. It makes me sad.
@@quarryfossick1075 I never intended any flaming. I just didn’t like that insult and needed to let the other guy know how disrespectful he was. Perhaps he’ll know better next time.
Exactly, anyone watching at the time, if they gave it any thought, was going to end with him separate both, because they are in future episodes - but every option was bad, even though I hated Tuvix the thought of if that was me was borderline horrifying (after impatiently waiting for it to happen I felt bad for him, which rated as more divisive IMHO) & Janeway clearly did the best/only she could, including killing him herself because even if you could order someone else to... Only morally grey moment st:voy ever had that didn't feel hollow or forced; Just beautiful Deus Ex...
I always supported Janeway in the Tuvix decision. I don't know how I feel morally about it, but I do know that Neelix and Tuvac were already established as two of her crew members, and thus she acted as a captain should.
I think what they did with Tuvix was justified. I never saw him as his own person, because he was a combination of two different people. He was essentially made out of parts that belonged to other people. How can you justify letting him keep those parts, preventing their actual owners from living as a consequence? He was the direct product of a malfunction/mistake/accident. All Janeway did was correct the mistake. I support her decision 100%. Also, there is no way to know what the long term ramifications of their melding would've resulted in. What happens when the Vulcan horny cycle starts? How would that affect him? Or the generally powerful, violent emotions of vulcans that need to be strictly controlled to keep them from acting out? What if Tuvix steadily lost control of himself? There is no way to know what sort of consequences there would be, the idea that they were fused in a perfect, flawless, and stable way with zero consequence is folly. Also, he didn't "die". His mass is still there, every component that made him who he was is still there and still alive and glad to be restored to normal.
The Leah and Geordie story was even MORE divisive AFTER she discovered the program as Geordie proceeds to gaslight her and she goes along with it. Everything about the two-part story was controversial and probably shouldn't have happened.
I actually have no problem with what happens in "Booby trap". Sure, Geordi should have known better, but the episode starts with him being dumped by the woman he was dating (Kristy/Kirsty, I don't recall her name exactly), so he wasn't in the best state mentally/emotionally. It's not like he outright asked the computer for a holographic version of Leah Brahms, he was surprised when she showed up, things just snowballed from there; and he did stop himself only one kiss too late. I can see that happen to a decent person when they're feeling lonely/rejected. But WOW, when the real Leah showed up (I think the episode was "Galaxy's child") the writers turned Geordi into an outright creep and Leah into an outright bitch. I wonder whether they made her so unsympathetic in order for viewers to side with Geordi? I'm fairly sure any engineer understands that lab conditions are different from work conditions, so her being mad at him for making adjustments is just silly. What isn't silly is her reactions to his creepy behavior towards her, he CLEARLY had romantic expectations, just look at how he reacted when he learned that she is married! And when she finds the holo-program, as you said, he straight up gaslights her. He could've just explained what happened, that he was feeling lonely at the time, that he understands her anger and that he's sincerely sorry... but no. Instead it's spun in a way that makes HER feel bad for calling him out. WHAT THE HELL?! I think one of the reasons why I was okay with "Booby trap" is that the moral implications of creating holographic versions of real people were never really discussed on the show. There was this one episode on DS9 ("Meridian", I think), where Quark tries to get a holographic picture of Kira for a client that wants to have sex with her, and she was understandably apalled by the idea, but on TNG Barclay didn't get in any kind of trouble for beating up and flirting with his senior officers at all. Compared to that, what Geordi "did" was pretty tame.
The problem with using a holographic Lia Braums (sp?) is that having the holographic avatar solve the problem means that the ship’s computer could have resolved the issue without the avatar representation.
The computer didn't solve the problem by itself. It helped, but it was Geordie who ultimately came up with the solution. The avatar certainly motivated him though
So Geordi creates a holographic recreation of himself and pairs it up with Lia’s holo character. Then they can interact in computer speed instead of real world Geordi speed.
@@kerosoldier I still cannot believe how problematic the writing and inconsistent characterizations are on Discovery. And why is it so hyper-emotional? So many tears.
The problem I had with Spock's "KHAN!!" outburst is it doesn't make sense. In the original timeline Kirk and Spock had been friends for decades. Kirk getting emotional over Spock's death reflected that. Spock getting emotional over Kirk's death is weird because they have only been friends for a few years at the time of the death. Someone that spent his live trying to surpress his emotions to suddenly lose his cool and run off on a man hunt is out of character. Killing Hugh had a purpose, even if it was a bad one. Killing Icheb didn't. Seven was already on the warpath, we didn't need Icheb's death at all. Star Trek 6's "Second star to the right, and straight on till morning" would have been the perfect send off for the OS crew. They had to ruin it by putting Kirk, Chekov and Scotty in Generations. Even worse, Scotty was supposed to be Spock but Leonard Nimoy flat out refused. The only good thing about the Leah Brahms story is that Geordie gets called out on it. When they on one hand treat Barclays trip into the holodeck as a sickness then make a romance for one of the main characters, that went too far.
The only thing that DS9 did better (in terms of making the show awesome!) than going to War with the Dominion was the conflict with the Klingons! Peace is the ideal, sure....but it doesn't always work! Glad they finally showed that in Star Trek!
I know this is a divisive opinion, But Star Trek: Into Darkness, is to this day my second favorite Star Trek movie, and one of my favorite science fiction films of all time.
I didn't realize the Leah Brahms hologram was so divisive! I think Geordi's relative innocence and naivete makes it less bad than it could be. If Tom Paris had done something like that, it would have been gross, but then, if Harry Kim had done it, it wouldn't have been so bad either. It was absolutely awkward in how it played out and I don't personally enjoy that scene, but I don't feel strongly about it.
Ehh, someone else pointed out that if we hadn't genocided our competitors on this planet there'd be cro magnons and neanderthals walking about. And almost nobody would have sex with them, so they'd still be around today, and there'd be three kinds of "human" in the world that look a lot different from each other.
Janeway did sadly murder Tuvix but she had no choice when given the opportunity to bring back Tuvok and Nelix. It was very heartbreaking. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t
I liked how the books retconned Trips death. Basically Section 31 faked his death so that he could go undercover. There's even a goosebump inducing scene where an elderly Trip is visiting the Romulan War Memorial on earth and is bumped into by a young child, Jimmy Kirk.
You should really just combine all the Kurtzman and Abrams entries into “Series and movies that emphasize stunning visuals and out of character gotcha moments over good story telling and substance.”
In Geordi's defense he didn't recreate Dr. Brahms to have a romance with it, he created it to figure out a way to save the ship. Since the computer didn't say she was married (which you would think it would because it had access to her files), how was he to know. Plus we wouldn't get that great scene when the real Brahms comes on board. Ultimately in all good things, he ends up with her anyway in the future timeline.
The Orville is the only modern "Star Trek" worth watching. Aside from Seth MacFarlane, apparently no one who has been given the chance to right big budget Star Trek since STE knows what the hell they are doing (not that STE was perfect). It's like they think they can make better Star Trek by pasting on extra flashy bits, lens flare lens flare. Like stitching a fifth leg on a horse will make it a better horse. Screw all the new fangled time lines, bring back Gean Roddenberry cannon.
Pretty solid list. I've always said that Khan SHOULD have been Captain Garth for ST: Into Darkness (a role Cumberbatch could have easily played as well) making him someone Pine's Kirk admired but had to track down and bring in since he had gone mad. Then have the "death" scene be between Spock and Pike having the latter become disfigured as a result of his efforts to save the crew placing him in the Yes / No bulb hover chair.
I love the fact that the Tuvix episode is still being debated to this day. Speaks volume to the people who wrote and executed it
I consider the Tuvix episode the ultimate note on transporter tech period;
if the "conscious being" is only fully manifest in the "physical body" - then every time someone steps into that chamber and is completely torn apart - murder is committed and a new life is created at the other end
(another trek possibility is that the conscious is quantum linked to the physical, then you are just "relinking" a pointer - I feel like IRL is different than either case)
search "trek transporter murder"
I thought it was an allegory of the command decision in the military to kill one to save others.
" 'Executed' it"
@@leoismylastname “Execution” used to be a euphemism for killing someone. It also means “the act of performing or accomplishing”. Similarly, “Undertaker” used to mean someone who does (undertakes) a specified action. when a Shakespearean character says, in accepting the challenge of a duel, “I’ll be your undertaker”, no threat of death is implied.
And well performed, like you really feel for him when nobody helps him.
The actress who played Leah Brahms was in the running for Janeway. I can see the memes if she'd gotten it: FLED 70,000 LIGHT YEARS TO GET AWAY FROM GEORDI'S STALKING
His visor is also totally a screen for watching her with his hidden cameras. If spy tech is tiny now, what do you think Jordi could come up with?
I had such a crush on her from that episode. It would have been very distracting had they cast her as Janeway.
Poor Tuvix , his life would have been a real mix up for sure.
Giordi's crush on Leah Brahms was broken by the real Leah Brahms though
@@michaelmckinnon1591 The crush wasn't the problem. The holodeck version of her was.
Icheb deserved better. At least, Hugh, who wasn't a recurring character like Icheb, got some screen time before he died.
That's for sure.
Hugh's death would have had the same effect on Seven as if he was just another random former Borg drone.
Icheb's the first one that came to mind.
I loved icheb in voyager and I am furious over his offensive death in Picard.
CBS isn't canon anyway, just don't watch it for Trek's sake.
Hugh was in two episodes of TNG (three if you count Descent parts I and II separately). I think that qualifies as "recurring". But I agree, Icheb deserved much better.
I grew up hating Kirk's death in Generations. It felt pointless to me.... that he dies on a "nameless" planet that is completely meaningless in the "big picture." But in my later years, I have come to realize that this is almost a perfect synopsis of what Kirk and "old school" Star Trek stand for. It doesn't matter that the Viridian system is some meaningless backwater, home to a pre-warp society. Kirk lays down his life to protect that planet and that society because that is what his morals (and the overall message of Trek) demands. He leaves the "paradise" of the Nexus and pays the ultimate price because that IS who he is.
PS- Yes the cabin scene between Kirk and Picard is fantastic, and Picard should have REMEMBERED what Kirk tells him. "Don't let them promote you. Don't let them do ANYTHING to take you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there.... you can make a difference." How much "difference" did ADMIRAL Picard end up making? Exactly. Should have listened, Jean-Luc.
Great post, but still Kirk deserve better! Still at least we all know who the better Captain was in that movie! LOL
2265: Captain on the bridge
2371: Bridge on the Captain
"Over A Hundred & Six Years Old, He Hung In There Didn't He?", "Didn't Die Of Old Age Either, A Bridge Fell On Him", "Ouch!". LOL
The "Shatnerverse" novels magically bring him back.
Wasn't it a nod to V when Kirk said he'd always known he'd die alone?
Yes, Picard hears his last breaths, but he does meet his end alone in a ditch and apart from his friends.
Without Rikers's Minuet we wouldn't have got Geordie's Leah Brahms & without that we would not have got Reg Barclay - one of the best recurring characters in all of Star Trek.
The Dax thing was a total waste. There was a war. All they had to do was promote her to Commander and give her a ship. Then she could've been gone for episodes at a time. Petty by the producers.
cough RIck Berman cough
@@JaredLS10 No, they needed to kill her off.
@@Paulafan5 Ah, "Nuh-uh" - the pinnacle of rebuttals.
The actress who played the original one left to be on Becker. I agree they didn't need to introduce a useless character as her replacement symbiont. But I'm sure the producers were mad that she quit.
@@michaelmcneely9169 Yeah, no. That's definitely not what happened. They literally explain it in the video itself.
Farrell asked for a reduced schedule - moving her to recurring instead of starring. The showrunners (i.e., Berman) said no, didn't re-up her contract, and they killed her off outright. That's why the original commenter said what he did - the recurring status shouldn't have been an issue because there was an easy way to work it.
Again, literally explained in the video.
The Tuvix decision is possibly one of my favorite Trek moments. It's a genuine no-win scenario. Janeway basically had to turn off her heart and go completely stone cold to undo the accident. Even more cruelly, I seem to remember Tuvix being "alive" for quite a while before they tore him apart. A story like this hinges entirely on the casting of "the accident", and I really think actor Tom Wright pulled off a minor miracle making him immediately likable. And that really helps make the decision so damned impossible.
I liked Tuvix a lot better than I did Tuvok.
I wish there had been a way to duplicate him and split one of them and having all three. Alas, that was never, ever going to happen.
Steve Shives made a great video about the Tuvix episode a short while ago:
ua-cam.com/video/QRFWqTQ7xJ0/v-deo.html&
IMO, it's terrible writing which really hurts Janeway's character. And even more so because it is never ever mentioned again (general problem of VOY). It should never have happened.
I look and everyone is teary eyed kver Tuvix...what about Neelix and Tuvok...they wasnt even able to speak for themselves they were changed without warning or anything and everyone was ok woth this because we got this cutesy new person 😒 #ISupportJaneway lmao!
On paper, the idea of fusing two characters seems silly. But Tom Wright really sells it. Not only does he convince the audience he’s both Tuvok and Neelix, he manages to create a character more likable than the other two. IMO, this is the real reason people hated Janeway’s decision. The fans hated Neelix and Tuvok wasn’t that interesting. The ending forces us to give up a character we like in exchange for two we don’t.
Geordi was kind of stupid about holograms in general. He didn't mean to make the Brahms hologram romantic anymore than he meant to make Moriarty take over the ship.
Everyone in whole galaxy was stupid with the holodeck, especially the writers. You would think after a while someone in the federation would say "hey you know that thing we use mostly for leisure and training exercises that's always breaking and trying to kill us? Maybe we should stop using that".
And Geordi was not a "creepy stalker person." The dude was just lonely and couldn't get any. So, where do you go to get some, The Holodeck.
@@jamesstephens3222 Yeah, that's fair, if the person he did it with wasn't modeled on a real person.
@@jamesstephens3222 That would have been all fair and well if he didn't project imaginary Brahams on real Leah Brahams who had every right to be creeped out the way he kept acting like he knew her.
"Star Trek : Into Darkness is not a bad film by any means"........there's a phrase you don't hear often.
It's a good popcorn movie, but Star Trek movies shouldn't just be a popcorn movie.
@@Paulafan5 I personally wouldn't even rate it as a popcorn movie....unless we're talking that unpopped corn at the bottom of the bucket? 🤣
Yeah I have to question some of the people from that site! They say some crazy things all the time!
Because it's a lie
nor should you.
Am I trippin' or did they beam Tasha straight into Windows XP 0:26
You Are "Trippin" As Windows XP Wasn't Even A Pipe Dream When Tasha Yar's Death Occurred (1988)
@@kimberly-louisesisko6694 look at 0:26. That's a Win XP Desktop
@@matzemunz2827 Yes but that's how they made her funeral on the holodeck look like back then. Maybe the makers of Windows got inspired from that
yeah... And this joke went beyond as well... I'm old enough to have seen the first run of the later seasons btw
@@matzemunz2827 Yeah it's sad that the writers didn't make Tasha a good charakter. At least we later get Worf as a good security chief/tactical officer and Tashas Daugther Sela
Any fkn five minutes of screen time taken up with Discovery crew hugging each other and crying divides me into a rage and an apoplexy
Oh shut up.
Rick Berman's insistence that Generations come out the same calendar year as the series ended is, to me at least, the key reason Generations doesn't work. It's not *AS* bad as a lot of people make it out to be, but it could've been a lot better had the writers been given even just 3 more months to work on the script.
The "killing off" (because that's really what it was) of the Enterprise-D and the Picard/Kirk vs. Soran scenes needed a lot of work. Otherwise it's a pretty good movie. I don't have a problem with Kirk's death as much as I do with what an incompetent bumbling idiot they make Picard look like in setting it up.
My biggest issue with Picard (besides the overall set styling they strayed away from) was the how Hugh and Icheb were just tossed aside
The Dominion War is some of the best Trek ever.
DS9 is the best star trek ever.
@@kingpin6989 Damn Straight!
I think the Dominion War is just the next morally logical step for the Federation to take in light of the Borg situation - reminds me of what Q said in that episode when referring to the Borg: "If you can't handle a bloody nose, you might as well crawl back into your bed" - the Federation needed to be prepared for war against whatever hostile alien force is out there. If only Q came back to DS9 to remind them (and the fans) about that as foreshadowing
East Meets West Presents the lack of Q throughout the different shows and seasons as a random reoccurring character is far too real. But hey we got Michael Skywalker now
The Dominion War shows the Federation considers their values and freedom to be something worth defending from those who want to destroy them.
But the detractors apparently feel it's more noble to simply roll over and allow people to smash your face in with their boot, enslaving the Federation and destroying those values they claim to be important.
The fact that Ezra Dax was able to come close to rivalling Jadzias popularity with just one season shows what a good character she was.
Ezri.
Killing Hugh did not "serve its purpose". This moment was empty and devoid of purpose, and that is the very reason why it is so infuriating. This was one of the many moments that ruined Picard for me.
Honestly it's just one small step in the right direction. I want to see the darkest Trek universe possible and have it still be Trek.
It also sacrificed potential for shock. Who wouldn't want Hugh zipping around the Galaxy with Jean-Luc whilst waxing philosophical?
Captain Jonathan Archer faced a similar situation to that of Captain Janeway in "Tuvix":
In the Enterprise episode "Similitude", Trip Tucker is severely injured, and requires special treatment if if he is to have any chance for survival. Dr Phlox persuades Captain Archer to create a clone of Trip, who becomes known as Sim. Sim is born, grows up, learns, and is essentially an issue exact copy of Trip Tucker. When the time comes to perform the transplant surgery necessary to save Trip, Dr Phlox discovers Sim will die if he goes through with the procedure. Captain Archer is then faced with the hard decision of whether to let Sim live, or have his old friend Trip come back.
This might have been the best video out of TrekCulture. Well done!
(Side Note: I rather enjoy Discovery season 3... not sure why the series gets so much hate in comment sections, now that it's actually going somewhere and no one sits around anymore internally screaming about the lack of spore drives later in the timeline, and the acting is, imo, so much better...or the writing doesn't distract from it now, whichever the case.)
Because Michael is a space jesus and she pissed all over spock to be held up as better
There's actually a religion that is against Discovery. It all began before it came out, as people complained about how Gene's (or whoever drew it) first sketch of a ship for TOS looked too ugly to become the main ship of the series.
Calling "These are the voyages..." not the high point of the series is, I suggest, being a little...charitable
Was a fairly decent episode but it does make me wonder about TOS charachter Charles Tucker IV
No one was offended by jordi making a hologram of an engineer and then falling in love with it at the time the show came out that didn't become a problem until years later when people went completely bat shit crazy
The death of Icheb was cruel he deserved better, it put me off star trek picard
Icheb’s death at least sets up some things for Seven. It does drive the plot some. Hughs death just kind of... happens.
@@JeremyKShort thats a good point, I think it was more the torture before he died that annoyed me
@@ovi071 the torture was definitely pretty harsh. That may be the worst we’ve ever seen in Trek. It’s upsetting because you wanted better for the character. But is definitely makes you understand why Seven wants to kill them.
The fact that they didn't even bring back the original actor annoyed me
@@marceljohnson9634 you can look it up if your interested, but there were some issues with him that make him largely unemployable in Hollywood now.
TrekCulture and I normally agree on most things.
10: "Into Darkness isn't a bad movie".... WHOH there.
Sorry, but it's not a bad film at all. I'd argue its the better of the trilogy (Beyond was garbage by comparison, lacking JJ - or whomever's - careful touch). Khan was seductive and chilling in equal measures, Spock gets further depth, that lengthy badass fight at the end? Everything was great.
I mean, it's Not a bad Film... on general. It's just a terrible *Star Trek* Film.
Changing the Klingon's look in Discovery. Burnham being Spock's step-sister. Picard being a fragile, broken old man in the Picard series where Starfleet hates him... for reasons. Sisko being "magic" and getting his magic friends to wipe out the Dominion fleet in the wormhole (as much as I love DS9, the magic wormhole aliens saving them was ridiculous).
The Klingons changed their appearance within TOS ffs. They do it all the time.
@@hoodaticus ya but not to looking more like batman then KLINGON. The only thing that really changed before was the foreheads and uniforms
8:56... What about the flower? WHAT ABOUT THE FLOWER!? Tuvix was made of Tuvok, Neelix AND a flower!
Tuvok and Neelix smelled lovely for the rest of Voyager's trip through the Delta Quadrant.
So, Tuvix was a Hippie?^^
All the flower said was "Oh no. Not again!"
@@theblitz9 I feel unreasonably smug after understanding that reference!
Geordi gets unfair criticism. He didn't even intend to make the Leah hologram, the computer just assumed his intention. All he did was have the computer give it a personality. He worked with the hologram to solve a problem for a couple hours and shared one kiss, initiated by the program. Contrast with Seven, who I've never seen criticized for creating a hologram of a crewmate, with the express intention of sexual exploration, which she carried on an "affair" with for days if not weeks.
In The Lower Decks we learn that holodecks are mostly used only for sex. They have a "biofilter" that has to be cleaned from time to time that's mostly semen.
@@hoodaticus I think ds9 beat them to the punch a couple decades ago, making the point clear with Quark's holosuites
@@LegendX2010 LOL I originally had a blurb about DS9 before I edited it out, because while you're totally right IMO, reasonable minds could differ on whether that means holodecks on starfleet ships were mostly used for sex. The Lower Decks establishes clearly that yes, yes they are.
But yeah, the fact that all decent people react to holosuite usage on DS9 as declasse, indicates that it was 100% sexual.
Gene Rodenberry wanted even more sexualization of the Ferengi than he got btw... but he got a lot.
Well, "killing" Tuvix was really great thing to think about. If I had to make that call, what would I do? Every time I watch that episode, I feel unconfortable knowing what is going to happen... But it is a good way to show us what it means to be captain of a ship. Dealing with hard desicions is a part of the job...
Marijo Vojak she made a bad call imo
10. Yes, it is a bad movie
9. Not enough fans watched or cared enough about STP to notice Hugh’s death. Those of us that did watch, fully anticipated such disrespect and bad writing.
8. It was more sad than divisive for the fans at the time.
7. Cannot disagree with how fans were and are divided on this, the greatest arc in Trek history.
6. Cannot disagree with how this upset some.
5. Kirk dying wasn’t divisive in itself, it was the lackluster way with which it played out.
4. Fuck STP
3. No one felt negative about this when this episode aired. It’s only when viewing this with modern eyes that Geordi becomes creepy.
2. Fuck “These Are The Voyages!”
1. Cannot disagree here though the argument has increased overtime and was less controversial at the time. However I do disagree with it’s placement at #1 as Janeway’s entire career as Capt is riddled with divisive moments ie: Endgame.
Top slot should’ve been All of Kurtzman Era Trek with a special slot for Sarek suddenly advocating for violence over peace in “The Vulcan Hello” as well as several slots reserved for nearly everything Burnham.
RE: "3. No one felt negative about this when this episode aired. It’s only when viewing this with modern eyes that Geordi becomes creepy. " Speak for yourself. I felt it was creepy at the time.
The last point reminded me of the Enterprise episode where they make a clone Trip to harvest his organs in order to save the 'real' Trip. That episode had a warped morality.
"Into Darkness is not a bad film..." Gonna have to stop you right there.
yeah my thoughts exactly!
Kinda weird that different people can have different opinions.
It's clearly never happened before.
@@SNoVa525 Yeup, it is not a bad film at all, it could however, have been a lot, lot better with just a few changes, including reshooting Spocks scream to name just one.
@@NoFormalTraining absolutely!
@@SNoVa525 Kinda weird that some people know what poking fun is and some don't.
tuvix will never be forgotten
"Well, we're nine entries in, and there's nothing in this list from Voyager. I guess that just goes to show how it's won over all the people who were criticizing it in the--"
(sees that Tuvix's death is #1)
"Oh..."
when i first watched into darkness, leading up to kirk's death, i was just repeating out loud 'dont do it, dont do it', then the scream happened. i was very disappointed.
biggest thing i am surprised wasnt mentioned is discovery's change to klingons. a culture built around warriors that rose up and killed their gods to a god obsessed race
Good list left out the episode where they clone trip on Enterprise. But that was kind of like the whole thing with a tuvix. I probably one of the most divisive things was Discovery changing the look of the Klingons I'm shocked that that wasn't on the list. I love Star Trek Discovery but even I had to say that there was no point in changing what was established look for the Klingons.
I’d say the Trip clone is less divisive as he would not have lived much longer anyway so it was more let him live a week and loose both or do what they did.
Tuvix on the other hand would have lived a long time
Janeway did the right thing by killing Tuvix because Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips had long term contracts.
Touché
I agree that janeway did the right thing as both tuvok and neelix both had loved ones but it wouldve been good to see Tuvix longer in a two part episode and let him expand a little bit more wouldve given a lot more oomph when tuvok and neelix were split again or even if both character gained a slight personality change as something they both gained as being part of tuvix making tuvok slightly more easy going gained from neelix and neelix slightly more logical from tuvok
And Tuvok had a fanbase.
@@NoFormalTraining solid Neelix burn.
No.
I think the only Trek series I never got into was Enterprise. I get that a lot of people think Star Trek can only be a certain way, but I'm enjoying Discovery and Picard alongside reruns of TNG and DS9. I'm glad they're trying to update the style of storytelling for these new shows, because if you just did the same old format it'd be pretty dull and the similarity of shows like The Orville to that would mean they'd always be walking the line of self parody. These new shows with modern storytelling allow them to create compelling science fiction that reflects our societies' current concerns, as any good sci-fi should.
Enterprise never got the love and even the chance that it desperately needed and rightfully deserved, way too many close-minded and sour fanboys that I have heard at least a few say that they were never going to watch because they didn't want a prequel that would retcon (it didn't) everything that they knew and loved.
It's actually pretty important to note that even Captain Janeway was hesitant about separating Neelix and Tuvok back into individual people, thus ending Tuvix's existence
But, she did so anyway as both Neelix and Tuvok had significant others in their lives, Neelix had Kes and Tuvok had T'Prel
The Dominion War was one of the *best* things ever on Star Trek. Kirk's death was the second. Janeway *murdered* Tuvix. "These Are the Voyages" was the *worst* final episode ever, big diservice to the characters and to the actors. They deserved much better.
I remember watching Voyager as a kid and that Tuvix episode came on. I never struggled so hard to determine what I felt was right about a situation like that in all my life. I do believe that was when I realized that Star Trek is supposed to be about more than starship battles and politics. To this day, I applaud those writers and the actors responsible.
Kirk controlled a bridge and died under one.. Damn..
Season 1 Michael Burnham, that was fairly divisive.
Yeah, I thought they were trying to rectify her character in season 3, but after a few episodes she's back to being the 'bestest evar'.
No, I think most of the fanbase hates her character and she's the weak link in Discovery. She's the reason a lot of people don't care for Discovery. If people hated Picard or Sisko, that would severely hurt their respective series.
This comment is needlessly verbose. It can be distilled down to two words - Michael Burnham.
@@Phreddy666 😆😅
It's only divisive between the show-runners and most of the audience.
Yeah, I come down on the side of the admiral. Picard struts in like he owns the place after leaving. He hasn't done anything useful in a decade. And he demands that we give him a ship to go off on some half-cocked mission? You could tell that he and the admiral had a bad history together, so honestly speaking it was a totally logical scene.
No. Considering HOW many times he saved the ufp. He had the right. Picard the series is just terrible
Considering how many ships Riker was able to summon up on a moment's notice, should've been easy to give Picard just one to command.
The deaths of Hugh and Icheb in Picard turned me off to that show. Both of their deaths were poorly written and an insult to the beloved characters built up in their respective shows. Straight up bad writing.
Icheb, as a character, was fridged to give Seven motivation, which on its own is bad writing, but doing it this way also gives *us* a reason to hate his torturers, shows us how precarious a position the XB's are really in, and also conveniently negates ever having to call the original actor back.
Also Picard. And Data! They killed four classic characters in just one season
@@leandrotami Oh come on. Data was so told to the end it hurt. and remember Time's Arrow: Data wanted to die eventually even back then.
That said I didn't care for Icheb, but then again Voyager is the only trek show i'm not sure if I've seen all episodes. Some chars have an impact in very few appearences - Hugh is in 3 episodes of TNG, just one less than Lore.
One thing to note about Tuvix and the splitting him back into two beings. Somehow they ended up with an extra uniform of just the correct size for Neelix?
I actually chuckled because they made so much of the flowers being the cause.
Then when they beamed them apart, not flowers on the bed.
No, no . no... the computer created the Leah Brahms hologram! Not Geordi.
True, but Geordi then smootched her. That was the weird part.
@@jfess1911 Yeah, weird and creepy... and he had the gall to lecture Reg
@@tkeating3 "The holodeck is for porn" meme was best demonstrated in the Orville. OK, it is not technically Star Trek, but it reminded me more of TNG than Discovery or Picard.
Geordi's big mistake was not deleting the Brahms hologram. Or at least reducing it to academic knowledge only.
I'm surprised that TOS's Kirk/Uhura kiss and DS9's girl on girl kiss weren't at least on the list. I know that both were fairly divisive.
@@tkeating3 Farther down the list of reply's someone posted: "No one felt negative about this when this episode aired. It’s only when viewing this with modern eyes that Geordi becomes creepy. " To which I replied "Speak for yourself. I felt it was creepy at the time."
Great video. How about a follow up of events that were hugely controversial at the time, but which would not even be noticed (by most) today.
in the Enterprise novels leading to the Earth Romulan war, Tripp was in fact "killed" so as to be under cover, as a disguised Vulcan.
That also explains the wink Tripp gives Archer, before he is put into the "medical chamber" way better than just a "hey buddy everythings gone be alright"-wink.
Tripp really goes through some shit in those books...
@@Amunre81 i just finished the novel "all the good men do" where Tucker is "killed" (even flashes forward to an older Jake Sisko/Nog going over Holo novels) tucker is undercover and made into a Romulan. its a good read.
Tuvix, was a great episode, I think this solidified (at least in my mind) that Janeway was the best Captain at making the hard decisions and selling her character to the audiences.
You should make the most NON divisive star trek moments. Like kirk yelling khaaaan!!
Killing Hugh was such a symbol of lazy writing.
Just kill someone off to make things interesting cause... yeah cause since GoT and TWD started this, it has to be great right?
Right?
Riiiiight?
If I recall, Hugh was ALWAYS supposed to die, but in the original version he was going to be offed in the same episode in which he appeared! But everyone loved working with the actor and character so much, they gave him several episodes to work in.
Have Captain Harriman fix the problem and get killed. Have Kirk take command of Enterprise B.
Ain't gonna lie, I cried when Hugh died 😢😢😢
The "Death" of Tuvix was a very big argument between me and my friends.
You actually put the death of Trip in better perspective, since I refused to acknowledge the "final" episode of Entirtprise,
I can just repeat a point that Red Letter Media made about Kirk's death. The most revered and decorated officer in Starfleet history and you bury him under a pile of rocks. Not an ideal send off.
Nobody hates Star Trek as much as Star Trek fans.
Edit: I'm a Trekkie too obviously.
...who hate poor writing, disrespecting source material, and volunteer victims who treat the death of characters like a personal attack on their demographic.
How dare they have high standards and expect some level of continuity?! lol.
Our standards are too high... that may be why I also watch Star Wars. 😆
@@joermnyc
Lol...cause they've done such a good job there too! 😄
@@Paulafan5
Right!?
I love the morality wrangling of the tuvix episode, and it is an impossible decision, murder the innocent new being or lose two integral members of an established crew. I liked how heavily it weighed on Janeway and how she took responsibility for the decision. That said, it would have been an incredibly bold move to have kept the tuvix character as a way of evolving the crew and show on their journey, perhaps a wasted opportunity, and a good way of having to live with consequences. Voyager was always at its best when grappling with "the correct thing to do is not always the right thing to do" plot lines
Always cool to see another Sean making great content
A top ten couples in Starfleet history could be seriously intresting please!
Picard and Q is the love that dare not speak its name....
Killing Dax and Killing Trip still makes me so angry and sad. NOO! not fair! Stop! But killing Tuvix is a hairflip, good of Janway!
Ah, "Dax" (symbiont) did not die.
They killed Trip twice.
Don't forget.
And for all we know the history was mistaken and TNG history didn't understand it was a clone Trip that died.
Killing her character off at least makes sense. Killing off Trip was just to to try and draw some emotion from the audience in a cheap way.
I think, there is a novel where they stated, that Trip never was killed. They took advantage of the story around that Riker was on the holodeck and making Trip a Section 31 Agent who infiltrates Romulus
@@Anthyrion You are right.
The post-series Enterprise novels "fix" history. The claim is that Trip didn't die and that the history of that time was different.
It was Nog who discovered it and went with it to Jake.
This enabled them to create a series of novels.
The important hing is that the crew of Enterprise thought he was dead the whole time.
Tuvix was a mistake by the transporter, not by birth, and this creation didn't have a personal history, but that of both the spliced members. Tuvok and Neelix existed prior with their life histories and thus was the correct path to go.
Looks like Neelix got autocorrected to Netflix... 😂
@@joermnyc LOL! Corrected now ;)
Gotta say - Benedict Cumberbatch should have just been John Harrison, the European "superman" of the Eugenics Wars (Khan being the Indo-Asian superman counterpart). He could have been discovered in a bunker beneath London in the Section 32 facility's construction excavation which was set up perfectly. It would have meant a Khan storyline for the alternate u. crew, a nod for fans to the Khan story without duplicating it, and would have been an excellent new Trek character. There's just no reason to re-do every. single. thing.
Ah yes, Geordi creates a holographic woman and he's a creep. Seven of Nine creates a holographic Chakotay and makes out with him and down the memory hole it goes (Janeway made a holo-boyfriend too).
Also blowing up Vulcan/Romulus was pretty controversial as well as Spock's secret siblings.
Star Wars did it right. First blow up the planet, then 30 years later inclufe it in a video game.
Janeway didnt kill Tuvix tho. She just used the transporter lol. And Neelix and Tuvok was happy to be back so suck it Tuvix.
Id stick Neelix back into the transporter,..hes worse than Jar Jar Binks
Tuvix is just one of the millions of Deaths Janeway was responsible for.
It is funny though. They managed to accidentally duplicate Riker, but couldn't find a way to duplicate Tuvok and Neelix and keep Tuvix.
@@ZyferWarriorPrime How would Janeway be able to feed to thirst for blood though?
Transporters don't kill people: people kill people.
I loved the Dominion War arc myself, it was different and that was what the "Star Trek" franchise needed.
I’m of two minds about Dax. I adore Jadzia and I dearly wished things could have been worked out to keep Farrell, but at the same time I love Ezri too, and I like that at the end, Ezri and Julian got together.
And I frankly, don’t care what Roddenberry would’ve thought about the Dominion War. It was great, and it’s not like the Federation has never been at war before.
One of the best videos you've done
The character Michael Burnham is very divise which is very understandable. She either whispers or screams, she disobeys orders all the time and is always forgiven. She's arrogant and always portrayed as the one who knows exactly what must be done, and then it turns out that she was right. Super irritating.
It's almost sickening.
That, and inserting her into a well-known pre-existing character's family/history in an attempt to make the character more likeable/sympathetic.
You forgot the tears... (so many!) and the unhinged expressions. It's as if the character had never come of age on Vulcan! Sonequa Martin-Green deserves better writing.
@@bryanabbott6169 The show is forced. Notice how the background music never stops to allow viewers an opportunity to catch their breath or decide how they feel? I suspect one reason for this and the ADD plotting is so viewers cannot think too much about the writing.
Didn't she start off the show "Vulcan-like"? She was raised Vulcan and was emotionally detached... then became the most emotional officer in Starfleet.
Picard fans: HOW DARE YOU DROP AN FBOMB IN TREK
Voyager fans: ...You do know what Leonardo's frequent exclamation of "che cazzo?" means, riiiiight?
Great list. I completely agree with the ones involving a character’s death (Jadzia, Hugh, Culber, Trip - not so much Kirk though as I didn’t have a connection with The Original Series when I watched Generations, but that’s more unique to my situation than to the divisiveness of the decision). Also the ethical questions of Geordi creating a holographic Leah Brahms and Janeway ‘killing’ Tuvix to bring back Tuvok and Neelix - but I loved both precisely because they raised ethical questions and dilemmas. I also really loved that Admiral Clancy dropped the F-Bomb (more than once!) towards Picard - definitely a “we’re not in Kansas anymore Toto” moment 🤣
"Jadzia is to date the only star trek main character who has died."
Moments earlier:
Yar dies.
Moments later:
Trip dies.
You must have missed the concluding part of that sentence. “The only Star Trek main character who has died AND DID NOT RETURN.” Although Trip did die, he’s seen as a hologram. But of course he doesn’t return since it was the final episode. And Yar? What a mess! That dimwit Denise Crosby returns many times to the point of annoyance. First, as alternate timeline Yar, then as her own half-Romulan daughter. Frankly, I thought she never should have returned either. It’s obvious she regretted her decision to leave after TNG became a big hit and wanted to get back to the series in any way she could.
@@startounz While the information about the video you said is correct, your assessment of Denise Crosby's returns to TNG are retarded. Yesterday's Enterprise was a great sendoff for an underused character that was summarily killed off out of pique because Crosby wasn't happy at being underutilized. And Unification was a pleasant surprise of a return for her. Leaving TNG turned out to be a mistake, but given the overall quality of season one it's hard to fault her for looking at it and wanting out.
@@mattrobson3603 It’s really your comment on my assessment that’s retarded. There have been quite a number of instances where an actor or actress wants to quit a show early in its run. Nichelle Nichols herself wanted to quit TOS after season 1, but after meeting Martin King Jr., she decided to stay on as he said she represented a voice and presence for black people on television. And by staying on, she became an iconic character, particularly when she and Shatner participated in TV’s first interracial kiss.
If Denise Crosby had simply given TNG some time, they might have given Tasha Yar better character development. She struggled to survive on a war torn colony and eventually became security chief on the Federation’s flagship. We saw a similar character on DS9 with Kira Nerys, who battled to free her homeworld from the Cardassians from a young age, and eventually became the space station’s first officer. And she of course, had significant character development over the show’s 7 seasons.
By quitting so early on, Crosby blew it big time. And if you think about it, the death she suffered in season 1 occurred while she was in the line of duty, even though it was deemed senseless. Even though alternate timeline Yar was looking for a more honorable death looking to ride on the Enterprise-C’s historical sacrifice, her death was more of a low note since she became a Romulan’s concubine and ended up being executed after her own daughter betrays her. As for Sela, she was also a low note character, especially since she was never seen after the “Unification” 2-parter. All this mess was the reason Crosby should never have returned to TNG.
Oh. My. God.
I just made a harmless comment. And now we have two people calling each other "retarded".
In my opinion that's not very Star Trek.
It makes me sad.
@@quarryfossick1075 I never intended any flaming. I just didn’t like that insult and needed to let the other guy know how disrespectful he was. Perhaps he’ll know better next time.
You realize, Dominic Keating played Malcolm Reed, not Trip, right?
Goddammit, I don't know when I'd wear them but I want the seemingly well tailored star fleet uniforms you rock.
Tuvix was Janeway's Kobayashi Maru. But she made the right choice.
Needs of the many...
Exactly, anyone watching at the time, if they gave it any thought, was going to end with him separate both, because they are in future episodes - but every option was bad, even though I hated Tuvix the thought of if that was me was borderline horrifying (after impatiently waiting for it to happen I felt bad for him, which rated as more divisive IMHO) & Janeway clearly did the best/only she could, including killing him herself because even if you could order someone else to... Only morally grey moment st:voy ever had that didn't feel hollow or forced; Just beautiful Deus Ex...
Another great video! I feel like arguing with everyone now ha ha Ha
I always supported Janeway in the Tuvix decision. I don't know how I feel morally about it, but I do know that Neelix and Tuvac were already established as two of her crew members, and thus she acted as a captain should.
Pretty sure Terra Prime part 2 is the final episode of Enterprise....
;)
R.i.p Jadzia!! 👍🏻😎🖤
Voyager didn't shy away from the heavy stuff. The episode where Neelix lost his faith is another example of "going there".
Great Job Buddy! 👍🏼
I think what they did with Tuvix was justified.
I never saw him as his own person, because he was a combination of two different people. He was essentially made out of parts that belonged to other people. How can you justify letting him keep those parts, preventing their actual owners from living as a consequence?
He was the direct product of a malfunction/mistake/accident. All Janeway did was correct the mistake. I support her decision 100%.
Also, there is no way to know what the long term ramifications of their melding would've resulted in. What happens when the Vulcan horny cycle starts? How would that affect him? Or the generally powerful, violent emotions of vulcans that need to be strictly controlled to keep them from acting out? What if Tuvix steadily lost control of himself? There is no way to know what sort of consequences there would be, the idea that they were fused in a perfect, flawless, and stable way with zero consequence is folly.
Also, he didn't "die". His mass is still there, every component that made him who he was is still there and still alive and glad to be restored to normal.
8:25 Why mention Dominic Keating's opinion? Who cares?
Shouldn't it be Connor Trinneer's?
Very well done, kudos...
The Leah and Geordie story was even MORE divisive AFTER she discovered the program as Geordie proceeds to gaslight her and she goes along with it. Everything about the two-part story was controversial and probably shouldn't have happened.
I actually have no problem with what happens in "Booby trap". Sure, Geordi should have known better, but the episode starts with him being dumped by the woman he was dating (Kristy/Kirsty, I don't recall her name exactly), so he wasn't in the best state mentally/emotionally. It's not like he outright asked the computer for a holographic version of Leah Brahms, he was surprised when she showed up, things just snowballed from there; and he did stop himself only one kiss too late. I can see that happen to a decent person when they're feeling lonely/rejected.
But WOW, when the real Leah showed up (I think the episode was "Galaxy's child") the writers turned Geordi into an outright creep and Leah into an outright bitch. I wonder whether they made her so unsympathetic in order for viewers to side with Geordi? I'm fairly sure any engineer understands that lab conditions are different from work conditions, so her being mad at him for making adjustments is just silly. What isn't silly is her reactions to his creepy behavior towards her, he CLEARLY had romantic expectations, just look at how he reacted when he learned that she is married! And when she finds the holo-program, as you said, he straight up gaslights her. He could've just explained what happened, that he was feeling lonely at the time, that he understands her anger and that he's sincerely sorry... but no. Instead it's spun in a way that makes HER feel bad for calling him out. WHAT THE HELL?!
I think one of the reasons why I was okay with "Booby trap" is that the moral implications of creating holographic versions of real people were never really discussed on the show. There was this one episode on DS9 ("Meridian", I think), where Quark tries to get a holographic picture of Kira for a client that wants to have sex with her, and she was understandably apalled by the idea, but on TNG Barclay didn't get in any kind of trouble for beating up and flirting with his senior officers at all. Compared to that, what Geordi "did" was pretty tame.
The problem with using a holographic Lia Braums (sp?) is that having the holographic avatar solve the problem means that the ship’s computer could have resolved the issue without the avatar representation.
The computer didn't solve the problem by itself. It helped, but it was Geordie who ultimately came up with the solution. The avatar certainly motivated him though
So Geordi creates a holographic recreation of himself and pairs it up with Lia’s holo character. Then they can interact in computer speed instead of real world Geordi speed.
If Becker had been there, Reggie would still be alive !
#1. The *entire* show of Star Trek: Discovery...
Yeah but did you enjoy enterprise????
@@thec695 I did. Better writing and cast
@@kerosoldier I still cannot believe how problematic the writing and inconsistent characterizations are on Discovery. And why is it so hyper-emotional? So many tears.
@@thec695 meh, it was so-so.
@@michaelmoraga2926 also...why so much pandering? Its all about diversity and representation.
The problem I had with Spock's "KHAN!!" outburst is it doesn't make sense. In the original timeline Kirk and Spock had been friends for decades. Kirk getting emotional over Spock's death reflected that. Spock getting emotional over Kirk's death is weird because they have only been friends for a few years at the time of the death. Someone that spent his live trying to surpress his emotions to suddenly lose his cool and run off on a man hunt is out of character. Killing Hugh had a purpose, even if it was a bad one. Killing Icheb didn't. Seven was already on the warpath, we didn't need Icheb's death at all. Star Trek 6's "Second star to the right, and straight on till morning" would have been the perfect send off for the OS crew. They had to ruin it by putting Kirk, Chekov and Scotty in Generations. Even worse, Scotty was supposed to be Spock but Leonard Nimoy flat out refused. The only good thing about the Leah Brahms story is that Geordie gets called out on it. When they on one hand treat Barclays trip into the holodeck as a sickness then make a romance for one of the main characters, that went too far.
The only thing that DS9 did better (in terms of making the show awesome!) than going to War with the Dominion was the conflict with the Klingons! Peace is the ideal, sure....but it doesn't always work! Glad they finally showed that in Star Trek!
I know this is a divisive opinion, But Star Trek: Into Darkness, is to this day my second favorite Star Trek movie, and one of my favorite science fiction films of all time.
I didn't realize the Leah Brahms hologram was so divisive! I think Geordi's relative innocence and naivete makes it less bad than it could be. If Tom Paris had done something like that, it would have been gross, but then, if Harry Kim had done it, it wouldn't have been so bad either. It was absolutely awkward in how it played out and I don't personally enjoy that scene, but I don't feel strongly about it.
What about a video on “Star Trek Races whose physical features changed over time or multiple series”?
Ehh, someone else pointed out that if we hadn't genocided our competitors on this planet there'd be cro magnons and neanderthals walking about. And almost nobody would have sex with them, so they'd still be around today, and there'd be three kinds of "human" in the world that look a lot different from each other.
Janeway did sadly murder Tuvix but she had no choice when given the opportunity to bring back Tuvok and Nelix. It was very heartbreaking.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t
Tuvix still exists as part of each character so he's not "dead". Horrible choice for number one.
@@Paulafan5 sorry that’s too metaphysical. He is dead. He was a separate entity and now is gone.
I liked how the books retconned Trips death. Basically Section 31 faked his death so that he could go undercover. There's even a goosebump inducing scene where an elderly Trip is visiting the Romulan War Memorial on earth and is bumped into by a young child, Jimmy Kirk.
You should really just combine all the Kurtzman and Abrams entries into “Series and movies that emphasize stunning visuals and out of character gotcha moments over good story telling and substance.”
Re: 'Spock Scream"... "There are those who love this moment." If that isn't a statement on the decline of society, I don't know what is.
Into Darkness should be ERASED from every Star Trek Timeline
I loved it. If you see the movie as a techno remix of an old classic it's... absolutely perfect.
@@hoodaticus No.... Pls
The absolutely most divisive moment is....whenever any new movie or series comes out.....
Wow. Number 10 was an okay.... But number nine got me wanting to watch then you really brought it home with number one!
Sheer Farking Hubris is my favourite part.
In Geordi's defense he didn't recreate Dr. Brahms to have a romance with it, he created it to figure out a way to save the ship. Since the computer didn't say she was married (which you would think it would because it had access to her files), how was he to know. Plus we wouldn't get that great scene when the real Brahms comes on board. Ultimately in all good things, he ends up with her anyway in the future timeline.
The Orville is the only modern "Star Trek" worth watching. Aside from Seth MacFarlane, apparently no one who has been given the chance to right big budget Star Trek since STE knows what the hell they are doing (not that STE was perfect). It's like they think they can make better Star Trek by pasting on extra flashy bits, lens flare lens flare. Like stitching a fifth leg on a horse will make it a better horse. Screw all the new fangled time lines, bring back Gean Roddenberry cannon.
@ 8:41 I almost forgot how hot T'Pol was
Almost :P
Pretty solid list. I've always said that Khan SHOULD have been Captain Garth for ST: Into Darkness (a role Cumberbatch could have easily played as well) making him someone Pine's Kirk admired but had to track down and bring in since he had gone mad. Then have the "death" scene be between Spock and Pike having the latter become disfigured as a result of his efforts to save the crew placing him in the Yes / No bulb hover chair.