On LIRR we had Rs1 , 2s , and 3s . We had no problems at all with them . We also had the Alco C420 high hood s . All these locomotives pulled passenger trains all day long everyday , and used for freight . They were used from the 1950 s to just a couple of years ago they retired or sold them .They did a great job .The C 420 has more pulling power then the EMD GP38
Long Island RR was a big Alco customer . They has RS 1s ,2s ,and RS3s . Also C420 s which they got rid of when they sold the freight part of the RR to Atlantic Freight. They bought a few of the GP38s for their fleet .Long Island also had F3 s in service as power and control cabs.
Actually those were not f3's they were Alco FA's. They had their prime movers removed and replaced with generators. They were used as HEP powere cab control cars, or as the LIRR called them 'power packs". The company did briefly operate a few of a later development of the f3 called the FL9. Theses were originally operated by the metro north who was then in the process of replacing the with the P32dm's. Ironically, the LIRR had got hold of a few of these to power the first order of the new double decker coaches, which its FA power packs could not support, the FL9's had hep. The order was put in before new locomotives were ordered as a test so these were a stopgap till the company decided which locomotives it would buy. Thanks for watching! Please feel free to subscribe if you haven't already!
When the New York and Atlantic took over Freight Service from the Long Island Railroad there were about 8000 car loads a year. Because they give such good service to their shippers they are up to 37,000 car loads a year and the MTA is Amish because now they have lots of freight trains to deal with instead of maybe one a day. The only thing a railroad has to sell is service. I love watching videos where a shipper calls the railroad and within an hour a locomotive comes and receives their empty car so they don't have to pay an extra days rental for it. The roads are so crowded today that it makes sense to reactivate old sidings to companies to help relieve truck traffic on the roads. It is a shame that all of the passenger and Freight traffic is not on the rails where it should be then we would not have to be driving next to monster trucks and we can have a nice enjoyable traveling experience as opposed to crashing in a plane.
I have color slides I took in Kalamazoo, Michigan of several Conrail RS3's in the Roundhouse in 1979, all rebuilt with EMD switcher prime movers, and twin stacks.
Nice work Alco guy, you know your shit. I'm a FM type of guy having grown up with the SP Train Masters screaming past the house on the Peninsula commute trains. The only Alco engines I ever saw in the wild were the S4's SP used at the time as the depot goat in SF. They sounded like were gonna rattle themselves apart. One kind ass old engineer let me and my buddies come into the cab of SP RS32 4005 on the Millbrae local when they were having "beans". He was so cool, let us sit in his seat and wind it up, blow the horn,etc. What a great "Grandpa" kinda guy.
Interesting to note that the railroads that followed ALCo's maintenance practices had less issues. Also, GE helped tarnish the engines with their turbo chargers and amplidyne excitation system. ALCo took the heat for it with the customers, but firmly laid the blame where it was do. While GE resolved the amplidyne system issues, ALCo resolved the turbocharger issue with their own as stated.
8:20 Forging is not the weaker method of making a crankshaft. In fact quite the opposite is true. Cast products are normally weaker than forged ones. The reason being that the forging process tends to toughen the metal while still allowing some flexibility in it. That said, some cast metals can approach the strengths of forged metals and some items that get cast have as their final steps, forging. Examples of where forging produces better result are crankshafts which are forged steel and not cast iron and forged pistons vs cast pistons in Aluminum.
I thought somthing was fishy with the hole casting is better then forging approach. As it turns out, alco made a declaration that considered its casting process to be superior then forging, remember they had just bought M&S and were new to building diesel prime movers. As it turns out, alco made this declaration in response to railroads who's locomotives had failed and were not happy that alco did not forge the crankshafts from the start, to stop them from failing in the first place. The forged crankshafts really didn't help, as the same locomotives had broken crankshafts again within a few months. Had Alco only looked at the bearing saddles and checked them for round and how well in line they were, as they would finally about a year or so later, when the first prototypes of the prime mover were produced, this could have been avoided all together. However, they were in too much of a hurry to get the prime mover into production and paid the price.
Alco locomotive products were good reliable locomotives if they were taken care of as they were supposed to be and not abused. Many railroads got 20 years and more service out of locomotives with the 539 as well as the 244 engines. With the declining railroad business these locomotive leases were not picked up when they expired. It used to be a great investment to have a locomotive lease in the steam days because they would use the locomotive for 30 40 50 years. Every Day Working Class People who put money in the bank got money out of these. Between the passenger traffic being siphoned off to the Airlines and the freight traffic being shipped off to the trucks with non-union labor and Gypsy drivers there is no way the railroads can compete with cost. As a railroad started to contract they had less and less need for newer locomotives. Alco locomotives designed and built overseas power many International Railways like of Russia and India. The msr1 was called the diesel that saved Russia because it supplied Russia over the mountains from Iran. Many perfectly good locomotives were scrapped for tax write-off purposes. Many railroads that had three times as many EMD locomotives as alco's the alcoves would suffer from lack of maintenance. Like a Harley shop that will only work on Harleys many railroads concentrated on EMD until General Electric entered the locomotive Market. Many short lines have 244 and 251 engines alcoas and service every day. The only thing different between an Alco locomotive and a general electric locomotive is basically the locomotive engine because all the electrical gear is the same. If all of the bankrupt railroads were giving money to overhaul the locomotives that they had instead of getting credit to buy thousands of brand new ones we would still have many more alco's Fairbanks Morse and Baldwins in service. It should be a crime to scrap a perfectly good locomotive.
One drawback of the Alco RS-2/3 cabs was they were not symmetrical, right to left. The engineer's side had two window panes that opened away from each other; the fireman's side had three panes that slid in one direction. This would come into play when rebuilt units were given chopped noses with the short hood now being designated as the front. Engineers did not like the three-pane windows.
The 2 actually just specifies the bore/stroke of the engine. 9 x 10.5. this is the same reason the 251 has that same 2...it had nothing to do with development work in February. The 41, 44, and 51 signify first production year.
They have proven to be fairly reliable after some initial teething issues with the electrical system. It is odd to hear the 567 exhaust in them if you are use to the 244...
Major differences between rs-2 And rs-3 was the fuel tank was under the cab floor on the rs-2 where the rs-3 had a larger fuel tank between the trucks. I ran a rs-2 for two years on the Palmer switcher and had no problems with the locomotive. Ran smoothly and 1500 horsepower was all we needed. However one deficiency was the cab heater which blew warm air over the engineer leaving the fireman to freeze until the railroad added a portable 72 volt dc heater laying on the floor under the fireman’s seat running off the auxiliary generator. Much better after that was added.
Great video, that really highlighted the technical pros and cons of alco prime movers. Any plans to cover baldwins? I know there 6 axle units had a bad rep but there 4 axle switchers seemed to be better. Perhaps there misunderstood as well.
2 does NOT stand for the month of development; in Alco's parlance, it's the combination of of cylinder bore and stroke. The later 251 had exactly the same bore and stroke as the earlier 241 and 244 engines. The '44' did identify the YEAR of development.
Great video. I look forward to, and appreciate every one of your history uploads. My only wish, is that you could someday upgrade your microphone. again, well done. I really enjoyed the live video footage.
Great information! In the first part of this video, you mentioned correctly that F type cab units ( I am lumping in the Alco FA, and the Baldwin Babyfaces and Sharks) were great for road freights, but were impractical for switching because there was no visibility for the conductor or engineer when making backing moves. Remember that until the 1980's, the conductor road in the caboose with his brakemen and other switch crew. The locomotive crew ( in all locomotives over a certain tonnage) consisted of the engineer and a fireman.
The 244 was not a terrible engine if it was not abused and taken care of properly. There were many railroads that had many Alco locomotives that had 244 engines in them and they got good service out of them and the only reason that they would be sold is because their leashes would expire and with the contraction of railroad business there was less of a need for locomotives. Such an appalling waste of capital. There are many short lines running Alco locomotives both 244 and 251 powered and they get good service out of them as well as getting a bargain of the locomotive. An Alco also gets much much better gas mileage than an EMD.
I assume the popularity of the RS3 with railfans and model railroaders was due to its looks, very different than EMDs and physically smaller when models of both are placed side by side. For years we wanted models of RS3's, and now there is a plethora of them. I like them because they look so different and sleek compared to EMD hoods although the latter are better locomotives to my knowledge.
Just found out about them. These were built by Alco Canadian subsidiary MLW, The Montreal locomotive works. they had a limited production run and were sold to a few countries around the world as export units.
@@alcobufff It's interesting. You could do some redesigns to make it better. my friend CRSR DASH 8-40B bought the Atlas Track Plan and downloaded it. he created some cool designs. check out his SMT Mainline video to see how he helped a friend redo his layout.
You heard right! On Diesels locomotives, back in the day, steam generators were used to heat the coaches. As the coaches, of the time, were designed to used steam from the old steam engines for heat. HEP or head end power, electricity generated by the locomotive, would finally eliminate the need for steam generators, starting some time in the 70's.
@@alcobufff In Tunisia we now have MDU and EMUs but when I was a student and commuting it was a much more interesting period for a railfam like me, we had either trains tracted by EMDs with rear end power generation wagon as well as some old MLW freight locos. Now in the south in the Phosphate mines we use all EMD.
@@alcobufff Steam was also used for air conditioning. Amtrak's Silver Star in March of 1982 was the last train to be converted to HEP use. Amtrak had started converting cars in 1978 to HEP at Beech Grove.
@@alcobufff HEP really killed two birds with one stone. Before HEP, DC electrical was the norm, regardless of how the train was heated. Coaches either had axle generators and batteries for electricity, or stand-alone diesel generators and batteries. HEP replaced all that with 480V AC for heating and everything else.
Too talky and too much time spent on EMD, especially the first four minutes. Part one of the series was also too Gabby, but you'll still get a like and I'll subscribe.
My apologies for the mistake. As it turns out, ALCO itself considered this process weaker or at least that's what it told is customers that were not happy that the company did not do this from the start, in order to avoid the down time. This fix unfortunately, did not solve the issues as it had to do with a block and baring saddle design that was not centered, this was not discovered as the prime mover was rushed into production. Thanks for watching!
It appears Alco was on a roll up until the war effort kinda throwed a monkey wrench to their able to stay or get their engines reliable as the 539T. Theres some people on shapeways site building 539 engines that look the part along with the 251 V12 & V16 versions. Can't wait to get some of these engines for a mechanic servicing the engine of a RS1. KV Models ( I think it's called ) builds a kit that allows the side doors on the hoods to be opened up. Another great informative video on early locomotives . . . BRIAN When on the link I provided below and looking at the 539T, scroll down towards the bottom of the page and there's two more versions of the 539 and several 251's and some EMD engines also. Click on "more from this shop" to see all the engines www.shapeways.com/product/YZAKJBF6F/alco539-body-turbo?optionId=214846605&li=more-from-shop
On LIRR we had Rs1 , 2s , and 3s . We had no problems at all with them . We also had the Alco C420 high hood s . All these locomotives pulled passenger trains all day long everyday , and used for freight . They were used from the 1950 s to just a couple of years ago they retired or sold them .They did a great job .The C 420 has more pulling power then the EMD GP38
Long Island RR was a big Alco customer . They has RS 1s ,2s ,and RS3s . Also C420 s which they got rid of when they sold the freight part of the RR to Atlantic Freight. They bought a few of the GP38s for their fleet .Long Island also had F3 s in service as power and control cabs.
Actually those were not f3's they were Alco FA's. They had their prime movers removed and replaced with generators. They were used as HEP powere cab control cars, or as the LIRR called them 'power packs". The company did briefly operate a few of a later development of the f3 called the FL9. Theses were originally operated by the metro north who was then in the process of replacing the with the P32dm's. Ironically, the LIRR had got hold of a few of these to power the first order of the new double decker coaches, which its FA power packs could not support, the FL9's had hep. The order was put in before new locomotives were ordered as a test so these were a stopgap till the company decided which locomotives it would buy.
Thanks for watching!
Please feel free to subscribe if you haven't already!
When the New York and Atlantic took over Freight Service from the Long Island Railroad there were about 8000 car loads a year. Because they give such good service to their shippers they are up to 37,000 car loads a year and the MTA is Amish because now they have lots of freight trains to deal with instead of maybe one a day. The only thing a railroad has to sell is service. I love watching videos where a shipper calls the railroad and within an hour a locomotive comes and receives their empty car so they don't have to pay an extra days rental for it. The roads are so crowded today that it makes sense to reactivate old sidings to companies to help relieve truck traffic on the roads. It is a shame that all of the passenger and Freight traffic is not on the rails where it should be then we would not have to be driving next to monster trucks and we can have a nice enjoyable traveling experience as opposed to crashing in a plane.
I have color slides I took in Kalamazoo, Michigan of several Conrail RS3's in the Roundhouse in 1979, all rebuilt with EMD switcher prime movers, and twin stacks.
Nice work Alco guy, you know your shit. I'm a FM type of guy having grown up with the SP Train Masters screaming past the house on the Peninsula commute trains. The only Alco engines I ever saw in the wild were the S4's SP used at the time as the depot goat in SF. They sounded like were gonna rattle themselves apart. One kind ass old engineer let me and my buddies come into the cab of SP RS32 4005 on the Millbrae local when they were having "beans". He was so cool, let us sit in his seat and wind it up, blow the horn,etc. What a great "Grandpa" kinda guy.
I love all your videos, attention to detail, history and some humour chucked in too. Rail porn, keep 'em coming.
outstanding! i knew the RS3s had problems but this was an eye opener. thank you.
Yep Alco really laid an egg with the 244 and the rs-3. Thanks for watching!
Interesting to note that the railroads that followed ALCo's maintenance practices had less issues. Also, GE helped tarnish the engines with their turbo chargers and amplidyne excitation system. ALCo took the heat for it with the customers, but firmly laid the blame where it was do. While GE resolved the amplidyne system issues, ALCo resolved the turbocharger issue with their own as stated.
8:20 Forging is not the weaker method of making a crankshaft. In fact quite the opposite is true. Cast products are normally weaker than forged ones. The reason being that the forging process tends to toughen the metal while still allowing some flexibility in it. That said, some cast metals can approach the strengths of forged metals and some items that get cast have as their final steps, forging. Examples of where forging produces better result are crankshafts which are forged steel and not cast iron and forged pistons vs cast pistons in Aluminum.
I thought somthing was fishy with the hole casting is better then forging approach. As it turns out, alco made a declaration that considered its casting process to be superior then forging, remember they had just bought M&S and were new to building diesel prime movers. As it turns out, alco made this declaration in response to railroads who's locomotives had failed and were not happy that alco did not forge the crankshafts from the start, to stop them from failing in the first place. The forged crankshafts really didn't help, as the same locomotives had broken crankshafts again within a few months. Had Alco only looked at the bearing saddles and checked them for round and how well in line they were, as they would finally about a year or so later, when the first prototypes of the prime mover were produced, this could have been avoided all together. However, they were in too much of a hurry to get the prime mover into production and paid the price.
I have an N scale RS3. Cool looking loco
Awesome video of alcos ,,,,thanks for sharing and all alcos are my favoret diesels from the rs-1 to the c-630,,,,,Ken
Thanks! Please feel free to subscribe if you haven't already!
Alco locomotive products were good reliable locomotives if they were taken care of as they were supposed to be and not abused. Many railroads got 20 years and more service out of locomotives with the 539 as well as the 244 engines. With the declining railroad business these locomotive leases were not picked up when they expired. It used to be a great investment to have a locomotive lease in the steam days because they would use the locomotive for 30 40 50 years. Every Day Working Class People who put money in the bank got money out of these. Between the passenger traffic being siphoned off to the Airlines and the freight traffic being shipped off to the trucks with non-union labor and Gypsy drivers there is no way the railroads can compete with cost. As a railroad started to contract they had less and less need for newer locomotives. Alco locomotives designed and built overseas power many International Railways like of Russia and India. The msr1 was called the diesel that saved Russia because it supplied Russia over the mountains from Iran. Many perfectly good locomotives were scrapped for tax write-off purposes. Many railroads that had three times as many EMD locomotives as alco's the alcoves would suffer from lack of maintenance. Like a Harley shop that will only work on Harleys many railroads concentrated on EMD until General Electric entered the locomotive Market. Many short lines have 244 and 251 engines alcoas and service every day. The only thing different between an Alco locomotive and a general electric locomotive is basically the locomotive engine because all the electrical gear is the same. If all of the bankrupt railroads were giving money to overhaul the locomotives that they had instead of getting credit to buy thousands of brand new ones we would still have many more alco's Fairbanks Morse and Baldwins in service. It should be a crime to scrap a perfectly good locomotive.
That was great. Good good work on the detailed credits.
Thanks!
One drawback of the Alco RS-2/3 cabs was they were not symmetrical, right to left. The engineer's side had two window panes that opened away from each other; the fireman's side had three panes that slid in one direction. This would come into play when rebuilt units were given chopped noses with the short hood now being designated as the front. Engineers did not like the three-pane windows.
The 2 actually just specifies the bore/stroke of the engine. 9 x 10.5. this is the same reason the 251 has that same 2...it had nothing to do with development work in February. The 41, 44, and 51 signify first production year.
The PC/CR RS3M's were rebuilt in DeWitt, NY.
Hence they were called "DeWitt Geeps."
They have proven to be fairly reliable after some initial teething issues with the electrical system. It is odd to hear the 567 exhaust in them if you are use to the 244...
Major differences between rs-2 And rs-3 was the fuel tank was under the cab floor on the rs-2 where the rs-3 had a larger fuel tank between the trucks. I ran a rs-2 for two years on the Palmer switcher and had no problems with the locomotive. Ran smoothly and 1500 horsepower was all we needed. However one deficiency was the cab heater which blew warm air over the engineer leaving the fireman to freeze until the railroad added a portable 72 volt dc heater laying on the floor under the fireman’s seat running off the auxiliary generator. Much better after that was added.
Great video, that really highlighted the technical pros and cons of alco prime movers. Any plans to cover baldwins? I know there 6 axle units had a bad rep but there 4 axle switchers seemed to be better. Perhaps there misunderstood as well.
2 does NOT stand for the month of development; in Alco's parlance, it's the combination of of cylinder bore and stroke. The later 251 had exactly the same bore and stroke as the earlier 241 and 244 engines. The '44' did identify the YEAR of development.
Great video. I look forward to, and appreciate every one of your history uploads. My only wish, is that you could someday upgrade your microphone. again, well done. I really enjoyed the live video footage.
Hmm I think the problem had to do with the sound volume on the clips and the transitions. I will do my best to improve this for the next part.
Now I know why my AHM HO RS units never ran well....they were really prototypical.
Great information! In the first part of this video, you mentioned correctly that F type cab units ( I am lumping in the Alco FA, and the Baldwin Babyfaces and Sharks) were great for road freights, but were impractical for switching because there was no visibility for the conductor or engineer when making backing moves. Remember that until the 1980's, the conductor road in the caboose with his brakemen and other switch crew. The locomotive crew ( in all locomotives over a certain tonnage) consisted of the engineer and a fireman.
GM also convinced congress that they and they alone should be producing diesels during the war limiting other manufacturers research and development
interisting i am modeling a tourist railroad and i want to justify having rebuild one-off designs like the GPRS20-3 (a frankenstein of a GP20 and RS3)
While the 244 prime mover was terrible, the locomotives that used it are some of my favorites.
The 244 was not a terrible engine if it was not abused and taken care of properly. There were many railroads that had many Alco locomotives that had 244 engines in them and they got good service out of them and the only reason that they would be sold is because their leashes would expire and with the contraction of railroad business there was less of a need for locomotives. Such an appalling waste of capital. There are many short lines running Alco locomotives both 244 and 251 powered and they get good service out of them as well as getting a bargain of the locomotive. An Alco also gets much much better gas mileage than an EMD.
What ever happened to weirton steel alcp lovomotive switchers?
Alco
Those are solid bearings on that one unit, not journal bearings. Roller bearings, because of their location, are also journal bearings.
The BL2 was a modified F3 variant.
Not an FT.
Different prime movers.
I assume the popularity of the RS3 with railfans and model railroaders was due to its looks, very different than EMDs and physically smaller when models of both are placed side by side. For years we wanted models of RS3's, and now there is a plethora of them. I like them because they look so different and sleek compared to EMD hoods although the latter are better locomotives to my knowledge.
Don't forget that snorty alco growl!
Thanks for watching, fee free to sub if you have not already!
do a re build vid!
please?
I’m kind of disappointed you didn’t mention the hammerhead RS 3 that the Lehigh Valley (later Conrail) had.
We had them in nsw Australia they where rsc3
Just found out about them. These were built by Alco Canadian subsidiary MLW, The Montreal locomotive works. they had a limited production run and were sold to a few countries around the world as export units.
@@alcobufff and in my home state all up 3 are saved 1 in nsw the other 2 in wa
I have some General Motors and alco ho scale models if you need footage.
I would also very much like to help.
Thanks for the offer. I'll let you know if I need any footage of models.
I enjoy the story comparison. However, your layout looks disorganized. Do you have a track plan and a method of use for your railroad?
My layout was built 30 plus years ago. This and lack of space, are the reasons for the unusual track plan.
@@alcobufff It's interesting. You could do some redesigns to make it better. my friend CRSR DASH 8-40B bought the Atlas Track Plan and downloaded it. he created some cool designs. check out his SMT Mainline video to see how he helped a friend redo his layout.
Southern. railroad had many RS1, 2,3 and 11.
Forging cranks weaker than casting? Not in automotive high performance.
Did you say steam generator? On a Diesel loco?
You heard right! On Diesels locomotives, back in the day, steam generators were used to heat the coaches. As the coaches, of the time, were designed to used steam from the old steam engines for heat. HEP or head end power, electricity generated by the locomotive, would finally eliminate the need for steam generators, starting some time in the 70's.
@@alcobufff In Tunisia we now have MDU and EMUs but when I was a student and commuting it was a much more interesting period for a railfam like me, we had either trains tracted by EMDs with rear end power generation wagon as well as some old MLW freight locos. Now in the south in the Phosphate mines we use all EMD.
@@alcobufff Steam was also used for air conditioning. Amtrak's Silver Star in March of 1982 was the last train to be converted to HEP use. Amtrak had started converting cars in 1978 to HEP at Beech Grove.
@@alcobufff HEP really killed two birds with one stone. Before HEP, DC electrical was the norm, regardless of how the train was heated. Coaches either had axle generators and batteries for electricity, or stand-alone diesel generators and batteries. HEP replaced all that with 480V AC for heating and everything else.
Too talky and too much time spent on EMD, especially the first four minutes. Part one of the series was also too Gabby, but you'll still get a like and I'll subscribe.
Highhood
Alcoholic
Damn you talk to fast
Southern prefer the RS units over Gp7
Slow Down. This is being done by a speed reader with Not Good Audio. Love the Alco but not the video.
Is it bias against Alco when they had so many problems? I think not. Alco lost out because they didn’t have competitive product.
Forged crankshafts are stronger than cast ones, NOT weaker.
My apologies for the mistake. As it turns out, ALCO itself considered this process weaker or at least that's what it told is customers that were not happy that the company did not do this from the start, in order to avoid the down time. This fix unfortunately, did not solve the issues as it had to do with a block and baring saddle design that was not centered, this was not discovered as the prime mover was rushed into production.
Thanks for watching!
It appears Alco was on a roll up until the war effort kinda throwed a monkey wrench to their able to stay or get their engines reliable as the 539T. Theres some people on shapeways site building 539 engines that look the part along with the 251 V12 & V16 versions. Can't wait to get some of these engines for a mechanic servicing the engine of a RS1. KV Models ( I think it's called ) builds a kit that allows the side doors on the hoods to be opened up. Another great informative video on early locomotives . . . BRIAN When on the link I provided below and looking at the 539T, scroll down towards the bottom of the page and there's two more versions of the 539 and several 251's and some EMD engines also. Click on "more from this shop" to see all the engines
www.shapeways.com/product/YZAKJBF6F/alco539-body-turbo?optionId=214846605&li=more-from-shop