I remember when these were used by Northern. Myself and another passenger were talking about how much we liked them (compared to the 150/142 units we usually got) the guard overheard us and said "They might be nice for you but they're shite for us"
For passengers, the Class 180 is better. For drivers, the Class 22x are better. The Class 180 coaches were very nice and they felt like essentially upgraded Mk3s. The only niggle I had as a passenger was the lighting was very bright. The driving cab of a Class 180 is pants because it’s small and has a big partition in the middle of window which ruins the view and ambience. On the other hand, Class 22x cabs are far more spacious, has its own cab door and doesn’t have that silly partition in the middle of the window. But the passenger experience is poor- to be fair, this is partly because of the way the operators have spent very little money on them. They are in dire need of refurbishment particularly the CrossCountry sets. It may surprise you that the Class 22x and Class 180s have the exact same engines. The reason why they sound so different is because one is a diesel electric whereas the other is a hydraulic system.
I used to work as a Guard on these. The ride was very wallowy - you can even see this in the aerial shot at the end, the two carriages rocking around on suspension that was like jelly. As for the toilets, the 180 was worse than a Voyager. Operationally though they were good to work if a little unrefined! I will add they looked good, the styling department did a good job of covering up the mechanical nightmare underneath!
Well yes, ironic that they came into service on the ex-Western Region! Of course, I know there are several classes that do use hydraulic transmission, albeit not advertised as such. I can vaguely remember travelling on the 180 a few times. Not as comfortable as classic MkIII stock HSTs, neither on account of the underfloor engines, nor the ride performance cf the MkIII stock. I guess it’s to do with the fact that I’ve travelled over half a million miles in the latter, but they were rather good overall.
Used to drive these on GWML, very easy to drive, used to love them on the Cheltenham route, ideal for stop start journeys with short station platforms. The engines were mounted on their sides, which caused the oil seals to leak, the train monitoring system used Windows 95 and gave most of the problems. After various software updates they improved in reliability and were pretty good by the time we got rid of them. A lot of problems occurred when you coupled two together, again software issues. The 800's have been far worse to start with, their not so bad now, full of faults, but most are not fateful, so you can still keep moving. It's rare to get a set with all their engines running, there's usually at least one isolated, good once on electric power though. Seating and ride quality was much better on 180's than 800's, Cheers Rich
I'm glad someone else concurs. I drove 180's for 6 months, since then I've been on Voyager and now 800/801. My experiences of 180's was primarily really irritating nigglely faults that were basically untracable at times. The TMS was buggy and had a tendancy of holding onto faults no matter how many times you reset them. Earth leakage was a right pain too, one set spend 99% of it's time tripping random RCD's at random intervals, one time tripping a RCD every time I set my AWS. One also had a tendancy of flooding the track with fire retardant at really inopportune moments. As you said, 800's are pretty faulty at times too, but at least they tend to be traceable, instead of making depot staff threaten to go at them in Basil Fawty mode. My dad being a ex BR driver and retiring in 2011 after driving HST's, class 91's and ending on Pendelinos, still maintains that the 225's were the best thing he ever used. I'm enclined to agree! Fun times eh!
@@sloeginandsleep1170 The 180s are on there last legs I’d say. I work for a TOC who runs them(won’t say which one but there only 2 haha) and it’s everyday faults usually engine related and they are becoming nearly unusable alongside the rattles and vibrations and the general bad ride quality I wonder how long they have left
Nice work Rory. I remember passing them in a morning heading for Hazel Grove. On the first morning after they went back, they were replaced by a pair of 142s. All of a sudden, all the criticisms they got disappeared!!!
Link to where I think this gag originated: ua-cam.com/video/86oqnk--X_A/v-deo.html (it's the FGW 180 training video on faults and failures and "you'll be going nowhere" appears at 1:17.
HST, still my favourite trains. I travelled on many in my University days and I still think they're better than Eurostars and CRH. I shall miss them when they're gone.
I find the 334s a very nice addition to the ScotRail/Strathclyde fleet now at least - more comfortable lower density seating in first and third carriages, especially if using to/from Edinburgh. But as with so many trains in this family, there are engineering shortcomings… All too regularly the squeaking sounds coming from the units (under floor, suspension, coupling, I don’t know enough to know) can ruin one’s comfort on a journey.
I do like the 334 for their ability to serve as a reliable commuter train between Argyll and Bute, through Glasgow and onto Edinburgh. I frequently use it going to Helensburgh from Glasgow. My only gripe is the lack of space for putting a bike (only the handle bar next to the accessible toilet is able to accommodate)
The 180s were a reliability disaster for Hull Trains, but I'm sad to see them go as their seats, in both standard and first, are far more comfortable than the 802s that replaced them.
I remember being booked on a GC class 180 service and it couldn’t go because the radio was broken. Another one a few months later couldn’t run due to something being wrong with the suspension. A further GC class 180 service I got on had a broken window seal on a rainy day so water was dripping into the carriage steadily. While GC/Hull Trains are cheaper operators, Im glad Hull Trains are going for new Hitachi sets and getting rid of the class 180’s to improve reliability and I wish GC would do the same.
Alan Robertson ha ha. I'd love to know exactly who these are ergonomically designed to suit! Even the first class seats are a huge step backwards in terms of comfort.
A brilliant documentary Ruairidh. Thoroughly researched and biased. You missed an opportunity to have a clip of Paul Tyreman saying "you'll be going nowhere" ;-)
I had an interesting experience on a Hull trains class 180 when we went through a very heavy rainstorm at speed and water started coming in through the air conditioning ducts and over the tables & passengers. From the way the crew appeared with rolls of absorbent towels I got the impression this might not have been the first time !
Poor reliability! You're telling me. I once got on one of these 180 sets at Paddington station, which stopped about half a mile out of the station and sat around for a bit before returning back to Paddington,. We hung around for a while there, then re-started the journey only to stop again at the same point half a mile out of Paddington where we were remained for the following FIVE HOURS. I was only travelling to Didcot Parkway, the journey should have taken approx 40-45 minutes. I think in total I was on that train for seven hours. I've flown to America in less time. We never did get any explanation as to what the delay was.
Have a soft spot for these trains and remember many a pleasant voyage on them from Hull to London - mainly cause the Hull Trains staff were excellent but they were nice to ride on. I also remember being stranded multiple times when they would fail regularly and I'd end up on a 158 to Doncaster to catch an East Coast HST set
The troublesome tale of the Class 180: "Alstom..." say no more. Isn't it funny how every train that Alstom built was ordered by one TOC and one only, with neither them nor anyone else placing any follow-on orders. The Pendle-leano is the only one that seems to have been a success, with everything else being plagued with technical problems, poor passenger environment, and among the ugliest trains to run. When Hull Trains dropped the Pioneer in favour of second-hand Adelantes, it was a sad day indeed for the line.
Alstom is a big company, and definitely so after recently taking over Bombardier's railway business. On the Continent, it is successful. Alstom used to be the main supplier for electric locomotives here in the Netherlands (adapting types from the 1500V= southern network in France), and is currently delivering our new Intercity EMUs (customised off-the-shelf stock).
Alstom is still in shambles, and they've brought Bombardier down with them. Additionally, the Amtrak variant of the Avelia is experiencing many teething troubles, worsened by the lack of suitable, attainable alternatives for North American high speed trains.
It makes you wonder what choices would be being made now regards what became the 800 and derivatives if one of the earlier HST replacements (180, 220, 221, 222 or something else we did not get) had really hit the mark and found acceptance to a larger number of operators.
These were first introduced on a handful of services between Swansea and Paddington. The biggest trouble with them was that they were too small, so overcrowded. It was rumoured that they would replace the HSTs for a while but gladly they didn’t. Use could certainly be found for them on GWR currently though. Would be ideal for Cardiff to Exeter and Penzance now that the HSTs are on their way out and Azumas are having to be used instead.
Only ever had a couple of trips on these trains between Exeter and London on the aforementioned morning peak service from Plymouth. They were comfortable and compared to the Voyagers quite spacious although I did miss one trip when the set failed at Laira, so a 33% failure rate!! Like too many trains in Britain they were not properly tested before introduction and, compared with say the Class 66 GM locomotives that basically worked off the docks at Newport straight away, suffered too many glitches that should have been sorted out before introduction. More recently I had a trip between Kings Cross and Sunderland on one with Grand Central. The train was packed but still managed to get a comfortable seat and a reasonably quiet trip. It looks like for their niche market the 180 does a good job for GC. Another might have been let down by poor back up and support in their early days.
"Comfortable compared to a Voyager" is setting the bar very low! The Meridian/Pioneers, based on the same platform as the Voyager, were way more comfortable than the Adelante.
Good video, especially as unlike most of your other output I did not already know about it. Got to admit the new EMU and DMU stock, like Sheep, all merge in together to me.
10 of the Class 180 Adelantes are with Grand Central. And 4 are with East Midlands Railway. With the 4 Class 180s that are with EMR to be cascaded to Grand Central as the Class 810 Aurora IETs are to enter service from 2023.
I used to see these everyday, the one I remember the most was called William Shakespeare I think. I never got to ho on one, but a friend of mine went on one to London in October and said it was a hell of a lot better than the 142 Pacers she had been on before.
The main problem with these units was the completely unreliable (and at times completely inoperable) coupling system. FGW had to roster an emergency fitter to be present at every planned instance which was unworkable in the long run. They also had an early tendency to catch fire due to very poor engine tray layout and cooling arrangements.
You'd think after all this time Alstom would know how to make trains that coupled successfully and which did not catch fire. Or is it that they take an 'every expense spared' approach?
Great video. I have a bit of a soft spot for these. Useful trains for secondary destinations where a HST would have been wasted such as Paddington to Worcester or to Newbury. Miles better than the dreaded voyager and with more leg room too. I regularly caught these when commuting from Reading to Paddington.
Thanks for that laconic breeze through the tale of the 180. Class 220 was produced by Bachmann as a OO gauge model. You might like to make a video on modern image trains which have lost the franchise and so on, but can be obtained with some difficulty from eBay in model form!
I've tried the EMR ones and they're not refurbed at all. Very worn down and a bit nasty inside. Worse than the 222s, and even those are pretty beat up inside. I suppose it doesn't make sense to refurb something they intend to replace "soon".
Well TFL refurbed their 315's and some of their 317's despite them being replaced within the next couple of years so to Greater Anglia on most of their trains. Transport For Wales are refurbishing nearly all of their trains despite them being replaced within 2-3 years. Yet GWR trains are in really poor condition despite their infancy and same with GTR just see these videos ua-cam.com/video/gnQzctsRNj4/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/pO3-PIvmlb4/v-deo.html
I can remember using those trains sometimes on the Cheltenham to London Paddington route in 2002/3. They were loud and bouncy and frankly a poor replacement for the class 44 hsts.
Biggest problem I had was trying to replace the HST with smaller 5 car units, with lower seating capacity. Apart from that found them perfectly fine when travelling on them. Would take them over a voyager anyday.
I've been on these 6-8 times now and not once have I had an issue with the trains themselves. Comfy, fast, but I can see how their teething issues muddied their abilities somewhat.
1:46 a correction here, the 334s were built for spt (strathclyde partnership for transport) and not for scotrail, however in 2008 the spt and scotrail franchises were merged
It's a great looking train, and the handful of times I've used them with Grand Central have been comfortable, it's a shame they had such reliability issues and are unlikely to be around for too much longer.
Ah, the 180s Hull Trains got the worst of the ex FGW sets with doors opening when at line speed and not tripping the interlock, bursting into flames, air con overheating to the point of smoke entering the saloon, 180109 being so bad that it burst into flames, closed the ECML and was sent off for heavy repairs for five months and exploded its Coach C engine the very day it returned to service and, to top it off, 180113 not only caught fire but also flung hydraulic fluid over a distance of several miles which required a complete replacement of the ballast. At one point, it was so bad that HT only had one operational unit and had to suspend operations multiple times - though, to be fair to the company, this is suspected to have been because of the loss of "knowledge" due to the HT fleet of 180s having their maintenance being done at Crofton depot instead of FGW's base at Old Oak Common as previously and so the experience of tinkering with the units to get them working again was gone. In the end, Hull Trains had so many 180s out of action that First Group sent them a pair of HSTs in the internal name Operation Titanic with the sets being nicknamed Jack and Rose for obvious reasons. This was not so much a Hull Trains or First group suggestion but one of the local enthusiast community and it proved to be exceptionally popular so much so that they didn't go until the 802s arrived
As a Reading/Paddington commuter, I preferred these even over the HSTs and they seemed like a good choice for intermediate length routes. I wondered what happened to them.
I went on some of the first services on the GWML from Didcot to London. I think we broke down at least 3 times in 2 weeks. You could tell the train staff had had enough after about 6 months.
I remember the Exeter service as I went on it the first time I ever went to Paddington and back but this was at the very end of there service with fgw (When they were first introduced originally). One thing I do rember though is that they weren't welcomed due to the new seat design in sort of the same way to how the 800s and 802s aren't liked because people are so used to the hsts seats even though the seats are fairly comfy for a 2 hour journey but I wouldn't want to go on one for the full 6 hours
Trust the great Western to go for a diesel hydraulic design when everyone else was using DEMUs for high speed services.... But we know they have history there!
Yikes!!! A scary rollercoaster ride for the Adelante's. Had good memories riding them with Hull Trains, spacious and very comfortable. Have noticed a few times especially walking in-between the coaches, it became very hot almost like the engines was nearly overheating. Nevertheless, they are good units for the ride quality. On my opinion, it'll be a good while before EMR or Grand Central decides to withdraw them.
I dont know if many people know about this but, apparently, the Class 185 actually has the exact same 3-speed transmission as the Class 180s and they somehow still manage to be more reliable than the Adelantes
Personally, I'd like to see the class 180s be transferred to Transport for Wales to help boost capacity on their Cardiff to Holyhead and Swansea to Manchester routes. They currently use mostly class 175s on these services, so I'm sure the class 180s would fit in nicely on these routes.
I always thought they were originally ordered for the (old) Wales and borders franchise before it got reorganised and the 175s and 180s went to First NW and GW - but might be wrong.
@@petereverett1455 The class 175s were for First North Western, who operated services in North West England and the North Wales coast at the time. They then were passed down to Arriva Trains Wales at the franchise reshuffle (which lead to the formation of the current Wales and Borders franchise) and then later passed on to Transport for Wales when they took over the franchise. But none of these operators ever had any class 180s as far as I remember. My thinking was that the 175s and 180s are fairly similar - so, since TfW already have 175s, maybe it'd make sense for them to also have the 180s too?
I was on one of these last year from Derby to Loughborough. Upon getting off the door wouldn't open, almost leaving me in the train. Luckily I decided to run down the train to the other end of the carriage and luckily managed to get off. Very anxious time.
Diesel hydraulic: the engines are mated to a gearbox which then drives the wheels like most road vehicles. Diesel electric: the engines are generators that power electric traction mptors and because electric motors provide instant torque, there is no need for a gearbox. The latter makes more sense with more powerful engines as a gearbox would have difficulty in handling or surviving such huge amounts of torque.
I did not mind them as either a passenger or a employee. Granted they took some getting used to and a big design fault was first class ( Coach D) between standard class ( Coach C & E) when it needed to be in Coach E to be practical . Yes the ride was a bit lively but I prefer it to a Hitachi’s one , However as for seats I still remember the Adelante having the most comfortable of all Millennium era onwards units. Quirks & hiccups yes they had some but in the 9 years I worked for FGW the sets were not that bad .. I had 103 fail on me between Reading & Didcot and the fault was the first time ever it showed it’s self . Twice on two different Adelante’s Door interlocking failures occurred , The last failure what was the last door interlocking failure happened 3 years after the 103 failure between Reading & Didcot , Sometimes I worked units running on 4 out of 5 engines but as a whole for me they were not that bad a units . Think logically at this ... Say you came to do with your car what one Adelante was doing on a FGW Duty going a lot from 0 mph - 125mph and back and all other speeds in between for 16hrs a day say 6 days a week that’s what the Adelante were doing .
I would quite often get that 180 worked 6AM service out of Plymouth in 2005 to get up to Exeter. Don't recall a huge amount wrong with them TBH, not as good as an HST but no worse than a Voyager. May be misremembering it but wasn't that the only service on the timetable at the time that did PLY-PAD in exactly 3 hours with it booked to get in at 9AM? Biggest mistake with all these early 00's trains built to replace HSTs was they were smaller than the trains they were replacing at a time when railway usage was increasing. The great argument that they would simply run sets in multiple and then deliver trains with greater than HST capacity never came to fruition with the limited number of sets available and the limited ability to work the stock to locations where multiple sets were needed. Hence to this day many Voyagers leave Plymouth full and then do two hours up to Bristol before a second set is added. The second set was really needed in Plymouth from the start but it can't be done.
Another cracking video! Shame the comments section had to be quickly trashed with the overly-used phrase "You'll Be Going Nowhere". Isn't it time we called it a day with that bl**dy annoying phrase? So many people seem to lack imagination and creativity that they have to jump on the bandwagon and create a boring, irritating trend (just like most things are boring and irritating in the bland, modern world we live in). Yes, I am fully aware of where that phrase stems from (one of FGW's training videos on the Class 180), but it's boring to see it popping up everywhere nowadays!
Massively factually I correct in terms of the origins of these units, which is fundamental to the continued issues with them. Were never ordered by FGW for Cardiff services, only inherited from NWT when First bought out GWT. It's a mixture of Virgin successfully objecting through moderation of competition that stopped NWT using them, and then the financial meltdown of Alsthom which resulted in them being hugely 'cost engineered' that resulted in the precarious reliability. Neither of these two core issues are ever mentioned in the vid.
Video idea for you - I don't think there is a single decent video on YT about the compagnie internationale des wagons-lits. There is so much content there and I am sure there would be loads of interest.
Used to ride these a lot on the Cotswold line during their first tenure with FGW, they were ok but unreliable, Aircon was either Arctic or Mordor and from the outside fairly loud. Then in their second stint used to get them to London and back very regularly, Aircon worked and the seating layout was much better than the refurbished MK3's. Quite a comfortable train. Won't miss the squeal of their breaks though.
6:50 I think the class 180's are the least of first group's problems. Being from Cornwall, I've only seen the 180's once at Reading in 2005, bloody deafened me and everyone else on the platform with its brake squeal. Luckily I've never riden on one, nor do I ever want to.
Its never good when an internal combustion powered train has a persistent problem with external combustion... Shame really because they're one of the few long distance sets that is compartively comfortable compared to the older IC125 and IC225 units.
It's a good squeal, caused by the brake pad surface being comprised of big copper nuts which reduce glazing build up on the discs. This gives the 180 it's phenominal braking performance.
Alstom really messed things up. These units could have competed with the Voyager and its subsequent derivatives, but their poor reliability killed sales. Meanwhile on SWT they introduced the class 458 Junipers. Very nice trains to travel in but equally poor reliability. Having started its new fleet with Alstom SWT switched loyalty to Siemens for the rest of their medium to long distance fleet. That's a huge order to miss out on, and Alstom pretty much sunk as a UK train supplier.
Thanks for the video, but I was hoping for more technical detail as to why these trains are unreliable and continue to be so? Normally the manufacturer would update parts etc to improve reliability. There’s no mention of any of this.
Remember the first time I came across one, pulled into Horwich Parkway during its Northern Rail days. Didn't have much of an interest in the railways at the time, but I just loved it. Started to do some research into what it was I'd traveled on and started to learn so much it became my hobby. Beautiful machines
125mph and (according to Wikipedia) hydrodynamic braking. I smell overheated oil... I mean: using (diesel-)electric stock, the braking energy could be recuperated (to overhead wires or lately to batteries) or fed to large radiators (like even older American diesel locomotives have).
I remember when these were used by Northern. Myself and another passenger were talking about how much we liked them (compared to the 150/142 units we usually got) the guard overheard us and said "They might be nice for you but they're shite for us"
The same story as the Airbus A380, loved by passengers but not by airlines.
@@leonkernan never knew that, whats the reason behind it xx
For passengers, the Class 180 is better. For drivers, the Class 22x are better. The Class 180 coaches were very nice and they felt like essentially upgraded Mk3s. The only niggle I had as a passenger was the lighting was very bright. The driving cab of a Class 180 is pants because it’s small and has a big partition in the middle of window which ruins the view and ambience.
On the other hand, Class 22x cabs are far more spacious, has its own cab door and doesn’t have that silly partition in the middle of the window. But the passenger experience is poor- to be fair, this is partly because of the way the operators have spent very little money on them. They are in dire need of refurbishment particularly the CrossCountry sets.
It may surprise you that the Class 22x and Class 180s have the exact same engines. The reason why they sound so different is because one is a diesel electric whereas the other is a hydraulic system.
@@leonkernan Maintanence nightmare
@@Wonderkid44 it was expensive to maintain for airlines that had a small number of them, it was fuel thirsty and difficult to fill up with passengers
You know why they were allocated as class 180?
Because when you see one, you turn 180 degrees and catch a HST instead!
👏
Oof!
True.When i'm at Birmingham New St and see a Class 180 at platform 5,I turn to HST 180° and go to P6
LOL.
Nice one
I used to work as a Guard on these. The ride was very wallowy - you can even see this in the aerial shot at the end, the two carriages rocking around on suspension that was like jelly. As for the toilets, the 180 was worse than a Voyager. Operationally though they were good to work if a little unrefined! I will add they looked good, the styling department did a good job of covering up the mechanical nightmare underneath!
It's nice to think that by going for a diesel hydraulic train that didn't really last FGW were honoring the legacy of the BR Western Region
Reminiscent of The Class 42 Warship and Class 52 Western Diesel Hydraulics among other Great Western Diesels Locomotives.
Well yes, ironic that they came into service on the ex-Western Region! Of course, I know there are several classes that do use hydraulic transmission, albeit not advertised as such. I can vaguely remember travelling on the 180 a few times. Not as comfortable as classic MkIII stock HSTs, neither on account of the underfloor engines, nor the ride performance cf the MkIII stock. I guess it’s to do with the fact that I’ve travelled over half a million miles in the latter, but they were rather good overall.
Lucid, engaging commentary and a fascinating history of these handsome looking trains!
Used to drive these on GWML, very easy to drive, used to love them on the Cheltenham route, ideal for stop start journeys with short station platforms. The engines were mounted on their sides, which caused the oil seals to leak, the train monitoring system used Windows 95 and gave most of the problems. After various software updates they improved in reliability and were pretty good by the time we got rid of them. A lot of problems occurred when you coupled two together, again software issues.
The 800's have been far worse to start with, their not so bad now, full of faults, but most are not fateful, so you can still keep moving. It's rare to get a set with all their engines running, there's usually at least one isolated, good once on electric power though.
Seating and ride quality was much better on 180's than 800's,
Cheers Rich
I'm glad someone else concurs. I drove 180's for 6 months, since then I've been on Voyager and now 800/801.
My experiences of 180's was primarily really irritating nigglely faults that were basically untracable at times. The TMS was buggy and had a tendancy of holding onto faults no matter how many times you reset them. Earth leakage was a right pain too, one set spend 99% of it's time tripping random RCD's at random intervals, one time tripping a RCD every time I set my AWS. One also had a tendancy of flooding the track with fire retardant at really inopportune moments.
As you said, 800's are pretty faulty at times too, but at least they tend to be traceable, instead of making depot staff threaten to go at them in Basil Fawty mode.
My dad being a ex BR driver and retiring in 2011 after driving HST's, class 91's and ending on Pendelinos, still maintains that the 225's were the best thing he ever used. I'm enclined to agree!
Fun times eh!
@@sloeginandsleep1170 The 180s are on there last legs I’d say. I work for a TOC who runs them(won’t say which one but there only 2 haha) and it’s everyday faults usually engine related and they are becoming nearly unusable alongside the rattles and vibrations and the general bad ride quality I wonder how long they have left
Nice work Rory. I remember passing them in a morning heading for Hazel Grove. On the first morning after they went back, they were replaced by a pair of 142s. All of a sudden, all the criticisms they got disappeared!!!
When these trains die, they'll be remembered for "You'll be going nowhere"
We need a 180 named after Paul tyreman!
@@twopityt ?
Quite litually going no where
@@gabri_maybe Class 180180 "Paul Tyreman"
Link to where I think this gag originated: ua-cam.com/video/86oqnk--X_A/v-deo.html (it's the FGW 180 training video on faults and failures and "you'll be going nowhere" appears at 1:17.
Interesting video as usual from Ruairidh. Replacement of the HST's was always going to be difficult as they are a hard act to follow!
HST, still my favourite trains. I travelled on many in my University days and I still think they're better than Eurostars and CRH. I shall miss them when they're gone.
@Chiltern Transport Productions Chinese High Speed railway.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railway_High-speed
Class 334... the units that sat in sidings for a year or more before they solved the problems to allow them to enter service. Worth a story on them.
I find the 334s a very nice addition to the ScotRail/Strathclyde fleet now at least - more comfortable lower density seating in first and third carriages, especially if using to/from Edinburgh. But as with so many trains in this family, there are engineering shortcomings… All too regularly the squeaking sounds coming from the units (under floor, suspension, coupling, I don’t know enough to know) can ruin one’s comfort on a journey.
I love 334s and consider them to be the best trains in Scotland.
I do like the 334 for their ability to serve as a reliable commuter train between Argyll and Bute, through Glasgow and onto Edinburgh.
I frequently use it going to Helensburgh from Glasgow. My only gripe is the lack of space for putting a bike (only the handle bar next to the accessible toilet is able to accommodate)
have you ever heard the tragedy of class 180 Adelante some say it was so unreliable that they were remembered as "you'll be going no where"
Or as Paul Press Tyreman once put it, "you'll be going nowhere'.
The 180s were a reliability disaster for Hull Trains, but I'm sad to see them go as their seats, in both standard and first, are far more comfortable than the 802s that replaced them.
I remember being booked on a GC class 180 service and it couldn’t go because the radio was broken. Another one a few months later couldn’t run due to something being wrong with the suspension. A further GC class 180 service I got on had a broken window seal on a rainy day so water was dripping into the carriage steadily. While GC/Hull Trains are cheaper operators, Im glad Hull Trains are going for new Hitachi sets and getting rid of the class 180’s to improve reliability and I wish GC would do the same.
Yes 802 seats are the pits. Apparently a job lot of ironing boards was going cheap when they built the trains.
Alan Robertson ha ha. I'd love to know exactly who these are ergonomically designed to suit! Even the first class seats are a huge step backwards in terms of comfort.
Josh Wilson will be interesting to see how long GC lasts as an all 180 operator. In the short term, they may not have the cash to fund a replacement.
The 802s are worse than the 700's in terms of seats.
A brilliant documentary Ruairidh. Thoroughly researched and biased.
You missed an opportunity to have a clip of Paul Tyreman saying "you'll be going nowhere" ;-)
I had an interesting experience on a Hull trains class 180 when we went through a very heavy rainstorm at speed and water started coming in through the air conditioning ducts and over the tables & passengers. From the way the crew appeared with rolls of absorbent towels I got the impression this might not have been the first time !
Happened to me on the way from Kings cross to Scarborough, started raining and it started dripping in the cabin
Nice one Rory these 180s were built between 2000 and 2001 in washwood Heath by alstom in Birmingham
Ahh, been waiting for a video on these units, beautiful things and a joy to ride as a passenger yet an engineering nightmare and meme machine
Meme machines going nowhere
Every time I see a class 180, I forget they exist like 30 minutes later
I experience that with 222s as well. :p
I Keep Forgetting That Grand Central Exists.
The only thing I look forward to on a Saturday
Yeeees used to work with these when I first joined the railway. Never clicked on a video so fast 😊 thanks for the content.
Nice to see 'OWN WORK' as credit to many of the video shots. Well done.
Paul Tyreman already said why they are not finding a home. The passengers will be going Nowhere
Poor reliability! You're telling me. I once got on one of these 180 sets at Paddington station, which stopped about half a mile out of the station and sat around for a bit before returning back to Paddington,. We hung around for a while there, then re-started the journey only to stop again at the same point half a mile out of Paddington where we were remained for the following FIVE HOURS. I was only travelling to Didcot Parkway, the journey should have taken approx 40-45 minutes. I think in total I was on that train for seven hours. I've flown to America in less time. We never did get any explanation as to what the delay was.
Because you'll be going nowhere was the delay
You should have contacted Paul. He would have sorted it out.
When they don't get things right from the start, you end up with tales like this.
Have a soft spot for these trains and remember many a pleasant voyage on them from Hull to London - mainly cause the Hull Trains staff were excellent but they were nice to ride on. I also remember being stranded multiple times when they would fail regularly and I'd end up on a 158 to Doncaster to catch an East Coast HST set
Nice, love all the effort you put in :)
The troublesome tale of the Class 180:
"Alstom..." say no more.
Isn't it funny how every train that Alstom built was ordered by one TOC and one only, with neither them nor anyone else placing any follow-on orders. The Pendle-leano is the only one that seems to have been a success, with everything else being plagued with technical problems, poor passenger environment, and among the ugliest trains to run.
When Hull Trains dropped the Pioneer in favour of second-hand Adelantes, it was a sad day indeed for the line.
Alstom is a big company, and definitely so after recently taking over Bombardier's railway business. On the Continent, it is successful. Alstom used to be the main supplier for electric locomotives here in the Netherlands (adapting types from the 1500V= southern network in France), and is currently delivering our new Intercity EMUs (customised off-the-shelf stock).
This just means Derby will be shut within 10 years guaranteed, once they’ve built the HS2 sets
the Pendolinos did have problems as well (I forget what now), they're just the most "ironed out" Alstom units.
Alstom is still in shambles, and they've brought Bombardier down with them. Additionally, the Amtrak variant of the Avelia is experiencing many teething troubles, worsened by the lack of suitable, attainable alternatives for North American high speed trains.
Imagine they could have dominated like the class 800 family if not for reliability
Good video 👍
you'll be going nowhere
It makes you wonder what choices would be being made now regards what became the 800 and derivatives if one of the earlier HST replacements (180, 220, 221, 222 or something else we did not get) had really hit the mark and found acceptance to a larger number of operators.
These were first introduced on a handful of services between Swansea and Paddington. The biggest trouble with them was that they were too small, so overcrowded. It was rumoured that they would replace the HSTs for a while but gladly they didn’t. Use could certainly be found for them on GWR currently though. Would be ideal for Cardiff to Exeter and Penzance now that the HSTs are on their way out and Azumas are having to be used instead.
Only ever had a couple of trips on these trains between Exeter and London on the aforementioned morning peak service from Plymouth. They were comfortable and compared to the Voyagers quite spacious although I did miss one trip when the set failed at Laira, so a 33% failure rate!!
Like too many trains in Britain they were not properly tested before introduction and, compared with say the Class 66 GM locomotives that basically worked off the docks at Newport straight away, suffered too many glitches that should have been sorted out before introduction.
More recently I had a trip between Kings Cross and Sunderland on one with Grand Central. The train was packed but still managed to get a comfortable seat and a reasonably quiet trip. It looks like for their niche market the 180 does a good job for GC.
Another might have been let down by poor back up and support in their early days.
"Comfortable compared to a Voyager" is setting the bar very low! The Meridian/Pioneers, based on the same platform as the Voyager, were way more comfortable than the Adelante.
We need a Class 180 named after Paul Tyreman
Good video, especially as unlike most of your other output I did not already know about it. Got to admit the new EMU and DMU stock, like Sheep, all merge in together to me.
Have you talked about the Pacer's much? I recall they were only meant to be a stopgap, but ended up serving for more than thirty years.
yeah i think in his 158 video he said that pacers was suppost to be an interate measure Until more DMU Designs were made
10 of the Class 180 Adelantes are with Grand Central. And 4 are with East Midlands Railway. With the 4 Class 180s that are with EMR to be cascaded to Grand Central as the Class 810 Aurora IETs are to enter service from 2023.
One thing's for sure, they're good looking machines.
I used to see these everyday, the one I remember the most was called William Shakespeare I think. I never got to ho on one, but a friend of mine went on one to London in October and said it was a hell of a lot better than the 142 Pacers she had been on before.
The main problem with these units was the completely unreliable (and at times completely inoperable) coupling system. FGW had to roster an emergency fitter to be present at every planned instance which was unworkable in the long run. They also had an early tendency to catch fire due to very poor engine tray layout and cooling arrangements.
You'd think after all this time Alstom would know how to make trains that coupled successfully and which did not catch fire. Or is it that they take an 'every expense spared' approach?
@@richardclarke376 It's more like being built to costomer spec.
@@johnmccallum8512 that combined with a non-existent engineering support system for customers following purchase.
Great video. I have a bit of a soft spot for these. Useful trains for secondary destinations where a HST would have been wasted such as Paddington to Worcester or to Newbury. Miles better than the dreaded voyager and with more leg room too. I regularly caught these when commuting from Reading to Paddington.
Out of all British trains, this is certainly one of them.
I totally agree HST may also be a DMU but at least they had class and were "reliable " after all their years in service
Thanks for that laconic breeze through the tale of the 180. Class 220 was produced by Bachmann as a OO gauge model. You might like to make a video on modern image trains which have lost the franchise and so on, but can be obtained with some difficulty from eBay in model form!
I've tried the EMR ones and they're not refurbed at all. Very worn down and a bit nasty inside. Worse than the 222s, and even those are pretty beat up inside. I suppose it doesn't make sense to refurb something they intend to replace "soon".
Well TFL refurbed their 315's and some of their 317's despite them being replaced within the next couple of years so to Greater Anglia on most of their trains. Transport For Wales are refurbishing nearly all of their trains despite them being replaced within 2-3 years. Yet GWR trains are in really poor condition despite their infancy and same with GTR just see these videos ua-cam.com/video/gnQzctsRNj4/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/pO3-PIvmlb4/v-deo.html
I can remember using those trains sometimes on the Cheltenham to London Paddington route in 2002/3. They were loud and bouncy and frankly a poor replacement for the class 44 hsts.
43,not 44
Biggest problem I had was trying to replace the HST with smaller 5 car units, with lower seating capacity.
Apart from that found them perfectly fine when travelling on them. Would take them over a voyager anyday.
I've been on these 6-8 times now and not once have I had an issue with the trains themselves. Comfy, fast, but I can see how their teething issues muddied their abilities somewhat.
1:46 a correction here, the 334s were built for spt (strathclyde partnership for transport) and not for scotrail, however in 2008 the spt and scotrail franchises were merged
Class 180 full detail in just 4 WORDS: YOU'LL BE GOING NOWHERE
Fun fact: 4 words, 4 likes
It's a great looking train, and the handful of times I've used them with Grand Central have been comfortable, it's a shame they had such reliability issues and are unlikely to be around for too much longer.
You'll be going nowhere
Hi mezzie
Hi Mezzie
@@Trainspotting_Mayhem hi TM
Hi Mezzie
Hi mezzie
Remember when Mainstream TV Documentaries were as well done as this?
Another brilliant, informative and intelligent as always.
Ah, the 180s
Hull Trains got the worst of the ex FGW sets with doors opening when at line speed and not tripping the interlock, bursting into flames, air con overheating to the point of smoke entering the saloon, 180109 being so bad that it burst into flames, closed the ECML and was sent off for heavy repairs for five months and exploded its Coach C engine the very day it returned to service and, to top it off, 180113 not only caught fire but also flung hydraulic fluid over a distance of several miles which required a complete replacement of the ballast. At one point, it was so bad that HT only had one operational unit and had to suspend operations multiple times - though, to be fair to the company, this is suspected to have been because of the loss of "knowledge" due to the HT fleet of 180s having their maintenance being done at Crofton depot instead of FGW's base at Old Oak Common as previously and so the experience of tinkering with the units to get them working again was gone.
In the end, Hull Trains had so many 180s out of action that First Group sent them a pair of HSTs in the internal name Operation Titanic with the sets being nicknamed Jack and Rose for obvious reasons. This was not so much a Hull Trains or First group suggestion but one of the local enthusiast community and it proved to be exceptionally popular so much so that they didn't go until the 802s arrived
So that why the HST's were in Hull a couple of years ago.
@@thesquad-airsoftgamingnerf9643 Yeah, pretty much... It was a good time when they turned up and the service could operate a skeleton timetable
Would've been cool to see the 67's blasting down the Great Western.
67s are pretty cool
ua-cam.com/video/Y_NRU7gMygA/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/j-aRZjYrNBE/v-deo.html
My friend travelled on one, from London to Sunderland....it caught fire, just before Thirsk!
As a Reading/Paddington commuter, I preferred these even over the HSTs and they seemed like a good choice for intermediate length routes. I wondered what happened to them.
I went on some of the first services on the GWML from Didcot to London. I think we broke down at least 3 times in 2 weeks. You could tell the train staff had had enough after about 6 months.
Worked on these at Alstom birmingham and recognise some fellow workers - some good memories 🤗
I remember the Exeter service as I went on it the first time I ever went to Paddington and back but this was at the very end of there service with fgw (When they were first introduced originally). One thing I do rember though is that they weren't welcomed due to the new seat design in sort of the same way to how the 800s and 802s aren't liked because people are so used to the hsts seats even though the seats are fairly comfy for a 2 hour journey but I wouldn't want to go on one for the full 6 hours
I remember the 180s doing Paddington to Exeter I remember them sitting in Exeter for a while
@@SionsTrainVideos same lol
@@pat_ross55 i like 180s. Lol
Trust the great Western to go for a diesel hydraulic design when everyone else was using DEMUs for high speed services....
But we know they have history there!
Yikes!!! A scary rollercoaster ride for the Adelante's. Had good memories riding them with Hull Trains, spacious and very comfortable. Have noticed a few times especially walking in-between the coaches, it became very hot almost like the engines was nearly overheating. Nevertheless, they are good units for the ride quality. On my opinion, it'll be a good while before EMR or Grand Central decides to withdraw them.
I dont know if many people know about this but, apparently, the Class 185 actually has the exact same 3-speed transmission as the Class 180s and they somehow still manage to be more reliable than the Adelantes
*IT WILL BE GOING NOWHERE*
You forgot to mention. When Hull trains are obtained a unit they hired special mechanics who were able to correct these trains
Grand Central seems to be doing well with the 180s. They look especially sharp in GC livery.
Most new liveries look pretty bland nowadays but Grand Central sure isn't one of them.
Grand central are cancelling services everyday
Excellent once again
The EMR sets run to Sheffield from St Pancras.
Personally, I'd like to see the class 180s be transferred to Transport for Wales to help boost capacity on their Cardiff to Holyhead and Swansea to Manchester routes. They currently use mostly class 175s on these services, so I'm sure the class 180s would fit in nicely on these routes.
I always thought they were originally ordered for the (old) Wales and borders franchise before it got reorganised and the 175s and 180s went to First NW and GW - but might be wrong.
@@petereverett1455 The class 175s were for First North Western, who operated services in North West England and the North Wales coast at the time. They then were passed down to Arriva Trains Wales at the franchise reshuffle (which lead to the formation of the current Wales and Borders franchise) and then later passed on to Transport for Wales when they took over the franchise. But none of these operators ever had any class 180s as far as I remember.
My thinking was that the 175s and 180s are fairly similar - so, since TfW already have 175s, maybe it'd make sense for them to also have the 180s too?
I was on one of these last year from Derby to Loughborough. Upon getting off the door wouldn't open, almost leaving me in the train. Luckily I decided to run down the train to the other end of the carriage and luckily managed to get off. Very anxious time.
Great video yet again 👍
How does a direct hydraulic diesel train work compared to diesel electric?
Maybe it doesn't bode well, and it shows!
Like an old fashioned automatic transmission
Catches on fire more often.
Diesel hydraulic: the engines are mated to a gearbox which then drives the wheels like most road vehicles. Diesel electric: the engines are generators that power electric traction mptors and because electric motors provide instant torque, there is no need for a gearbox. The latter makes more sense with more powerful engines as a gearbox would have difficulty in handling or surviving such huge amounts of torque.
@@MajorKlanga Would you call the circulation of hydraulic oil by a pump driving a liquid motor a gearbox?
Worth mentioning that Hull Trains had such bad reliability issues with the Adelantes, at one time they didn't have a single unit in service.
3:00 My ultimate fan
I did not mind them as either a passenger or a employee.
Granted they took some getting used to and a big design fault was first class ( Coach D) between standard class ( Coach C & E) when it needed to be in Coach E to be practical .
Yes the ride was a bit lively but I prefer it to a Hitachi’s one , However as for seats I still remember the Adelante having the most comfortable of all Millennium era onwards units.
Quirks & hiccups yes they had some but in the 9 years I worked for FGW the sets were not that bad ..
I had 103 fail on me between Reading & Didcot and the fault was the first time ever it showed it’s self .
Twice on two different Adelante’s Door interlocking failures occurred , The last failure what was the last door interlocking failure happened 3 years after the 103 failure between Reading & Didcot , Sometimes I worked units running on 4 out of 5 engines but as a whole for me they were not that bad a units .
Think logically at this ...
Say you came to do with your car what one Adelante was doing on a FGW Duty going a lot from 0 mph - 125mph and back and all other speeds in between for 16hrs a day say 6 days a week that’s what the Adelante were doing .
1:48 Pleasant surprise to see my local SWT/SWR station!
I still think the 180s look futuristic, especially in the Grand Central livery
I would quite often get that 180 worked 6AM service out of Plymouth in 2005 to get up to Exeter. Don't recall a huge amount wrong with them TBH, not as good as an HST but no worse than a Voyager. May be misremembering it but wasn't that the only service on the timetable at the time that did PLY-PAD in exactly 3 hours with it booked to get in at 9AM? Biggest mistake with all these early 00's trains built to replace HSTs was they were smaller than the trains they were replacing at a time when railway usage was increasing. The great argument that they would simply run sets in multiple and then deliver trains with greater than HST capacity never came to fruition with the limited number of sets available and the limited ability to work the stock to locations where multiple sets were needed. Hence to this day many Voyagers leave Plymouth full and then do two hours up to Bristol before a second set is added. The second set was really needed in Plymouth from the start but it can't be done.
Thanks for this; I used to travel on the Adelante services a lot between Paddington & Cardiff, and often wondered what became of them!
Yes, they’re back
Another cracking video!
Shame the comments section had to be quickly trashed with the overly-used phrase "You'll Be Going Nowhere". Isn't it time we called it a day with that bl**dy annoying phrase? So many people seem to lack imagination and creativity that they have to jump on the bandwagon and create a boring, irritating trend (just like most things are boring and irritating in the bland, modern world we live in).
Yes, I am fully aware of where that phrase stems from (one of FGW's training videos on the Class 180), but it's boring to see it popping up everywhere nowadays!
Easily one of the nicest MU sets on UK rails. Shame they never caught on. All the latest stuff is back breakingly uncomfortable.
Massively factually I correct in terms of the origins of these units, which is fundamental to the continued issues with them.
Were never ordered by FGW for Cardiff services, only inherited from NWT when First bought out GWT.
It's a mixture of Virgin successfully objecting through moderation of competition that stopped NWT using them, and then the financial meltdown of Alsthom which resulted in them being hugely 'cost engineered' that resulted in the precarious reliability.
Neither of these two core issues are ever mentioned in the vid.
Video idea for you - I don't think there is a single decent video on YT about the compagnie internationale des wagons-lits. There is so much content there and I am sure there would be loads of interest.
Used to ride these a lot on the Cotswold line during their first tenure with FGW, they were ok but unreliable, Aircon was either Arctic or Mordor and from the outside fairly loud.
Then in their second stint used to get them to London and back very regularly, Aircon worked and the seating layout was much better than the refurbished MK3's. Quite a comfortable train. Won't miss the squeal of their breaks though.
6:50 I think the class 180's are the least of first group's problems.
Being from Cornwall, I've only seen the 180's once at Reading in 2005, bloody deafened me and everyone else on the platform with its brake squeal. Luckily I've never riden on one, nor do I ever want to.
The Adelante's cab looks like a knight's helmet.
Its never good when an internal combustion powered train has a persistent problem with external combustion... Shame really because they're one of the few long distance sets that is compartively comfortable compared to the older IC125 and IC225 units.
As soon as the 458 was mentioned I knew why the high unreliability was a problem
Before watching this... I hope that the comical and excruciatingly loud screech these buggers make when coming to a halt is mentioned!
It's a good squeal, caused by the brake pad surface being comprised of big copper nuts which reduce glazing build up on the discs. This gives the 180 it's phenominal braking performance.
Alstom really messed things up. These units could have competed with the Voyager and its subsequent derivatives, but their poor reliability killed sales. Meanwhile on SWT they introduced the class 458 Junipers. Very nice trains to travel in but equally poor reliability. Having started its new fleet with Alstom SWT switched loyalty to Siemens for the rest of their medium to long distance fleet. That's a huge order to miss out on, and Alstom pretty much sunk as a UK train supplier.
WHEN they work ... they're lovely to work on and drive!
Not lovely because you'll be going nowhere
@@TheArkamedBat Never had a problem with them ... Comfortable to drive and little fuss when they make it off depot
I drive both 222's and 180's, and I get more problems with 222's. Whilst the cab is not quite as luxurious as a 222, they handle a lot better.
Were they not originally ordered for FNW Euston - Holyhead services, which never went ahead?
Update for you, Gen on the ground is that the 180's will be leaving EMR in May 2023.
EMR 180s are due to go back to Angel Trains in the May timetable change
The 180s are now at EMR
Thanks for the video, but I was hoping for more technical detail as to why these trains are unreliable and continue to be so? Normally the manufacturer would update parts etc to improve reliability. There’s no mention of any of this.
Remember the first time I came across one, pulled into Horwich Parkway during its Northern Rail days. Didn't have much of an interest in the railways at the time, but I just loved it. Started to do some research into what it was I'd traveled on and started to learn so much it became my hobby. Beautiful machines
ATP deserves a video in itself. The system is about to be replaced by an inferior one.
AWS is the inferior one?
@@TheArkamedBat TPWS+
@@EdgyNumber1 That too
Will you do a video about the new mk5 sleeper?
125mph and (according to Wikipedia) hydrodynamic braking. I smell overheated oil...
I mean: using (diesel-)electric stock, the braking energy could be recuperated (to overhead wires or lately to batteries) or fed to large radiators (like even older American diesel locomotives have).