The big thing I think people need to remember is that none of this is set in stone. Everything is in flux, everything is subject to change if/when a better idea comes along. Nuanced feedback is exactly what is needed to figure out the best system.
I suspect snubs don't benefit from NAV mode because they don't have quantum drives. The lore we've seen around NAV mode is that it uses your QD, that's why you need to disable shields in that mode. The lack of a real NAV mode is probably also why the merlin has the fastest SCM speed of any ship so far, to compensate.
Snubs are going to be B Tier at best without nav, how combat works now in MM is you fight till you are 2/3rds out of boost then hit nav mode to disengage (terrible gameplay imo) Without that and significantly higher boost speeds in SCM your only option at that point is to die, there isn't the performance window to out fly someone and live.
@@PursauntYapperSnubs should be B tier for combat anyway. Only reason they do well now is the light fighter meta. Once we have proper armor etc, snubs will only be effective against each other and infantry, or when used in swarms against light fighters.
You can never get rid of jousting because people are bad at the game. They hold down W and turn the gun at you. Rinse and repeat. That creates jousting. The only way to stop that is atmosphere and energy loss. People that try that in warthunder run out of energy and are either too slow to turn or fall out of the sky. Impossible in 0 gravity. So jousting will not go away. Also, so glad you mentioned ship armors. Ppl are freaking out and we don’t even have a complete picture.
I was thinking that as well. In flight and there's actually a way to simulate this even in zero G. If you're Pressing W and trying to bank it just creates strain on the frame to the point that you can cause the maneuvering thrusters to overheat and shut down. This could create a severe loss of Power to turn making any move/jousting even harder to maintain. In Sci-Fi shows like Babylon 5 and BSG the Starfury & Raptor dont keep the primary thrust on all the time. They use their thrusters to dictate movement and rapidly use Fly-By-Wire to rapidly maneuvering thrusters shift their momentum while keeping firing angles. The .0 version of the flight model actually had this until they moved to the current 1.0 model we're stuck with now. It made heavier and medium ships formidable due to the weight and thrust. You could maintain velocity and move around where as a lighter fighter would lose velocity in a forward motion making them easier to hit unless they kept their primary thruster active. 1.0 added this BS that made Pressing W a must.
I think I understand what AvengerOne is doing. I believe he realizes since this mechanic is so new and CIG is eager for it to be accepted, that he can maybe sway players opinions to be inline with his own and give feedback to pressure CIG into making changes that will benefit him and what he wants to do in the game. And he will probably succeed, at least in part because the PvP community in SC is comparatively small and many watch his channel. It will be interesting to see how CIG handles it, the type of PvP environment CIG is making is similar to EveOnline. And that game is very tough for newer players who don't join big Organizations immediately or are the type satisfied with staying in High-Security sectors. And like you said, we still have so many other systems coming online later down the road and who knows how that will change things. Honestly surprised no one is even talking about control surfaces, not every ship will have them, so some fighters may purposely take fights into atmospheres to have an advantage. Some are saying heavy fighters are to slow, but again they aren't taking into account maelstrom and heavy armor types so all that will be rebalanced as those systems come online. Then the whole light fighters or interceptors are to slow in comparison to other ships, but how big of a speed advantage should they have, CIG never said they wouldn't continue to balance master modes. So all of it is just noise we should ignore until we get all these systems in our hands and fully understand how it all works together. I for one am tired of CIG having to restart development on various systems every 4 years and would like to see them actually finish a feature fully.
exactly, him an all the orgs constantly bombard spectrum with their prefferd game play request. That is why things are so highly skewed to pvp in general.
Thoughtful take, really glad to see someone on my thought process with armor and what not. I've been feeling through the whole testing process, that the picture is a little too incomplete to give feedback on. In terms of combat balance we have no idea what minimum damage thresholds or armor damage reduction is going to look like. Let alone what the implications of malestrom would be to combat. I kind of wish we had more information to work with but sadly we can only go the speed of the world.
I'm curious now, because ships without a quantum drive do not have nav mode, I imagine going at faster speed in nav mode using the razor LX or the mustang omega would be non issue but I wonder if there would be a difference in SCM speeds between the racing ships like the fury LX , p-72 and their baseline models.
I get the impression he waffles a bit. In parts he clearly states that he prefers the old flight model. But in others he offers the "A1" tuning as a compromise. I maintain that we need to see how it works with all the ships before making any kind of big adjustments.
Speaking as a barely informed observer (having never raced (nor planning to), and not being interested in ship PVP), my understanding is that ship handling is going to change in the future, on account of finally taking the ship's weight into consideration, so what we have _now_ as a result of introducing Master Mode might not necessarily reflect the final result.
The racetracks were also designed for the old flight model. I assumed they would need significant modifications to be tailored for the new flight model. So saying Master Mode is worse is a bit misleading.
@@OddJobEntertainment Simply can't be the case due to the existence of snubs as racers. The merlin and fury were sold as such so there will have to be dedicated maps tailored to their speeds.
As a racer, just throw it in Nav mode and not much has changed... you don't need weapons or shields racing, the capacitor changes if anything provide too much boost now.
Tell me please, how the interceptor can chase and force to stop C2 which is in NAV mode and don't want to start fighting? Is the answer by only ramming?
It's pretty simple. If the interceptor is also in Nav Mode, it chases after the C2 and immediately has guns up upon switching to SCM. It also has the advantage that its shields will charge faster than the C2. You don't wait for weapons to come online like you do with shields. A C2 with no shield is vulnerable.
@@OddJobEntertainment Interceptor wont have nav mode as they wont have a QT drive. Many many fighters will not have a QT drive unless they are designated as LONG RANGE heavy like the Warden or the F8. Players are going to have to rely on QT transporters to get them to areas of interdiction or patrol.
@@OddJobEntertainment However they is just for now. They are not supposed to have a QT drive. It is just a place holder for game dev. This was discussed in 2.0.
Interesting! Snubs not have higher top speed, that kind of makes sense since they don't have a quantum drive and in game lore the extra nav mode speed comes from the quantum drive. Racing ships shouldn't have shields or weapons but should go much faster.
I agree snubs, even those without quantum drives need a nav mode top speed increase comperable to their class. They only thing they shouldn't be able to do is an actual quantum jump. As for master modrs overall, most of the big issues appear to be bugs which have been in the game for a long time and were just never addressed. E.g. backstraifing which I think was named poorly, as it refers to a bug with boost lasting 2x longer when in reverse. Pip spammong, or pip wiggle, is another big one. Which refees to the pilot moving their controlls in such a way as to make the taget marker move wildly off from the prograde vector of the ship. (Meaning its very difficult to know where to shoot for an uninformed player.) I think that applies to other issues as well. There are a lot of bugs in the flight model, and many of them have been there for a long time. Its my belief that these bugs are not well known outside the PvP circles, which have been known to exploit these bugs religiously. As such an even higher skill gap has been created, that shouldn't have been there in the first place. Which creates a further drift between the PvP community and the average player. To be honnest, Avenger doesn't even have an idea of what a normal or new player experiances in the game. I have litterly caught him advising new players to buy and Arrow or Gladius with real money on day 1 before they even know what the game is about, or have an idea how it could change. I get the feeling that to him this game is a combat sim and nothing else. Which is sad because this game is and will be so much more. To be clear im not saying Avengers views are bad ones. Just that he is having troubble seeing outside his experiance. In sports if you spend a long tine honing your craft, you actually want it to be more difficult as this makes those who are dedicated to that field shine more. This is a normal feeling, and its true in any field. That feeling when someone is wowed by your skill is addictive. I feel Avenger may be suffering from withdrawls when playing in the current MM models, where getting killstreaks of 5 or 10 without a scratch are much rarer. His input is definitely valueable, but I think it may be colored by his bias.
I haven't personally seen that from him but if you do any training with the avenger squad they will take you into AC and get you to pick up the free rental gladius if you don't own any other ship. I've never once heard them say to any new player to go buy a ship just to practice. A few seasons and you can just rent the arrow or anything else basically as much as you like in AC
@@PursauntYapper I actually had an arguement with him over this. It was the players first day, and he was asking which ship he should buy. I told him to rent a few ships, and to try them out if he really liked one then he should go with that. Avenger stepped in and told him to just go with the gladdy or arrow. There was a bit of back and forth i'm leaving out, as its been a while, and I dont want to misquote, but that is the general gist of it. It was in the comments of one of his UA-cam videos, I tried to find the video but couldn't remember which it was. If you look long enough you may come across it.
@@OddJobEntertainment yea the issue with jousting really is where someone can't adapt to someone they are fighting, and so they just line up the enemy and throttle. Weapons are useless until they are within range, and it's like horrible for both in that experience because it's like oh okay, now we're playing chicken and have to dodge...
@@OddJobEntertainment So why did CIG them self say the Buc would be real fast in a straight line & crap in any other direction? because its a Interceptor, thats its JOB!
This patch has actually made jousting worse and harder to do as the ships do not have the headroom to lead turn and close distance. Plus with the far longer effective range of weapons fights are happening further apart
Not having MM doesn't mean high barrier of entry... No one really plays DCS, but a tons of people plays War Thunder. War Thunder have a really easy to pick up mouse & keyboard control scheme compared to DCS. In the mean time it also have a relatively grounded flight model that allows most IRL flight tactics.That made the game's flight combat really easy to get into while also have tons of depth. Star Citizen should aim for somewhere like that.
@@OddJobEntertainmentyes it is. But MM is not the only way to fix it. War Thunder proves that, by providing a easy to get into control scheme and gamemode selections. you can maintain a easy entry while still retains flight characteristic complexity. Simultaneously serving entry level players and top PvPers.
I don't feel like cig should do much re-tuning of master modes. I feel like components and engineering should be the way forward. it would give synergy and importance to those other systems and allow players to customize and bond with at least their favorite ships.
I'm liking where it's at right now. Many other players much better than me say the same. But it's just a fact that a lot of tuning will be needed to make 200+ ships feel special.
That's not racing, that's drifting. If say, Grand Turismo's driving physics model makes drifting the fastest, then everybody would not even take it seriously. Why take seriously star citizen racing when it is basically drift king in space. Something seriously has gone wrong at CIG.
I think the Buc having 5 guns is what the real issue is. it has so much firepower the flight model dont matter. a team of buc will win most time cuz the short time they get guns on target the target dies. the flight dont matter when you outgun the enemy in almost every match up.
It's simply with the current balance Interceptors (bucc) are the new light fighter meta as they have the most performance headroom, speed is life. They have shifted the meta ships from having 2 guns to now 5 😂 the new meta is interceptors because how it flies, more pew is just a bonus. people are going to have a worse time now in the PU when this patch goes live
how i see it, if you cant put in the time to hone youre skills then you should suck at it just like in irl.. i played BF4 for 3 years. first i was terrible, with really bad K/D ratio. after 500 hours use the reset option, and my new overall K/D was really good, no not professional level paid E-sports good. i am not talented and also way to old for that. but i did put in the time to get better, i played Guildwars2 for 4 years, i had multiple characters, some builds where maximized to be PVE some PVP optimal. its time and commitment. you dont want to dog-fight cos you cant put in the hours? okay, mine or haul and hire people that are willing to get good, and let them defend you against other players. the idea that every palyer should have a chance in fighting without skills, is ABSURD.
In a typical game you have a pretty standard bell curve where the majority of players are average skill. So most people are okay at the game. In Star Citizen, if we were to plot the skill distribution, we'd see a big slant toward the high skill range with very little in the average and low skill area. What this would indicate is that unless you're able to reach a significantly higher minimum time investment compared to those games you just mentioned, you will not do well in any metric. You can see this reflected in the scoreboards too. Consistently, I'm seeing 1 player on one or both teams that is lightyears ahead in score, kills, etc. while the rest of the lobby is significantly lower. Master Modes is about lowering the barrier to entry. The ideal is a low barrier and a high ceiling. They've said they're still working towards that, but I don't think it's going to get there until ALL players are providing feedback on it with ALL ships.
I don’t understand how is the current flight model so hard for new players? It took me two training sessions with my org and I fell in love with it. I don’t want any other flight model than the current one.
Well be ready to be mad, cause it is not going to stay this way. Be ready for all fighters with exception of those deemed long range, to not have a QT drive to even catch a ship that does. As it should be, fighters will have to rely on QT transport ships to get to a place to interdict patrol or battle with other ships. The fighter meta will be balanced then.
I haven't heard any commentary on the components game of which no one has had an opportunity to play with because it doesn't yet exist. I'm fine if the master mode speeds exist as a base before player modifications.
This video is already out of date: Check A1 following videos where he goes in deep, VERY, to why this master mode is going to fail terribly. The point is not just "Speed" but how you become a sitting duck in PVP 2v2 or more because you can't manouvre out of your enemy cone of fire: speed is too low compared to to shells, range of weapons too long and weapons are too accurate. Increased dispersion or lower shell speed could help but a small fighter can shot an hammerhead with impunity from afar, being to small to actually being severely hit, while the Ham is big and cover all your dispersion cone. Once shields are done, three or four Gladiuses can easily kill an hammerhead, provided they have the patience to end it. If the heat is too much, anyone of the fighters can riposition, but the Ham cannot! More Armour? Just more time required to do exactly the same. Do I think THIS Master mode has more potential of the Live one? Absolutely NOT! Because it boxes ship in a tiny arcadish box of space, while the Live Mode still lacks mass, acceleration, proper inertia, fuel weight, load out and aerodynamics. If you want to play WW2 Star Wars, get into atmosphere right now, possibly waiting for addition if control surfaces and proper mass.
I'm not saying MM is perfect now either. It needs a lot of adjustment. But if it did not currently bring a speed penalty, would it be all that different from the old model? So at the very least, MM gives the ability to diversify ships through the modes.
It's far too early to be jumping to conclusions... Give it time. There's an infinite amount of balancing that can be done. "Master Modes" is just the latest attempt.
fair enough, but until we see what that means for the Mirai LX, I'm still concerned that this will negatively affect racing. The lore is always adjustable. It's just as easy to say that SCM speed is a limitation of total power plant output being shared with shields and weapons as it is to say it's from having a q-drive.
"...the final thing A1 misses out on is that most players cannot dedicate the amount of time he has to do PvP..." He does "miss out" he BANKS ON IT. Dont forget the dude has a bit of a history. If he didn't think he could be on top he most likely wouldn't be here.
Worth pointing out that the P-52 isn't a racing darling. It's the P-72 that racers oike, and there's no MM version available yet. So no "true" racing ships have been publicly tested yet.
Master Mode is great. I like it. Im no big PVP Player but its way better as atm in PU where u get smacked from a M50 or something braindead that flys with 1,500m/sec around where u cant make anything against it when in a med/heavy fighter
This whole conversation comes at a time that I've basically given up on the PU and my star Citizen enjoyment purely comes from the thrill of flying (and honestly reteaching myself to fly with other control methods also). All I want is a really deep pool to jump into. I don't know how to look like Splen yet but the difference between people like me and him is my primary draw to the game right now. I'm not interested in salvage or moving boxes around on foot with a multitool. I just want to improve at flight models that will take years to master and the more challenge the better.
Totally I'm with you there, gameplay hasn't really changed in so long I try out the new thing and deal with all the bugs and 30k while trying to herd friends for hours to get some fun gameplay. But if I have limited time and want to improve I'm learning how to actually fly. PVE has been zero challenge from the first few weeks of playing (MM currently is even easier PVE which is great for new players, but they need to add in harder AI systems and missions), imo if they want to keep the wider audience for a long time I believe they need a deep system with a high skill ceiling to keep players interested
I m not a top level PVPer is SC. I have a good understanding of the flight model and consider myself a decent pilot. Lack of time prevents me from being a 1%er. I say all that to say I see Avengers point. With master modes I feel I am already close to maxing out what can be done in that mode. I would like more room to grow. I agree that MM is a good idea but it still needs adjusting.
...And, CIG intends to continue "adjusting" Master Modes. They may even scrap it and come up with something else at some point. They're just move the ball closer to the goal.
I understand that that is how it is currently justified, I don't think it's a good idea though. Another lore reason could just as easily be that SCM places a speed limit as a function of your total power plant now being split across the 3 subsystems.
i am 38 year old, back in hte 90's many games where skill based, you could only even finish the game if you did put in the hours, cos they where difficult. i played many games in the Arcade, where we played so we can have the highest scores.. it was always a battle even if you didnt do it in a direct way. well you could play fighting games against others, or racing games. the point is you need talent or many many hours to be even just good in a game, now games are made so even cognitively challenged people can finish them... that is a bad idea. games that cater to the bottom usually suck at the top.. cos there is none.
You're talking largely single player or split screen games where SC is a multi-player game. It's not the same. If you don't make it doable for a general audience, you won't have a game. Low barrier to entry, high ceiling.
@@OddJobEntertainmentThe barrier is low. This past coramor event I got into AC for the first time, reached the Hammerhead wave in pirate swarm in a couple of hours with an Arrow, and got my coin in the same day in Duos. It is not hard to pick up. What CIG is doing is lowering the ceiling, so that the perpetual newbies can take a shot at the good players. So "Low barrier to entry, high ceiling" is not the thing really. It disappoints me to know that this is going where there is not much to look forward in terms of growth. Combat will be just another chore to deal with like everything else. And the "racing stuff" I assume will get reworked eventually. 280 is not racing.
Those older games used difficulty as a crutch to make up for lack of gameplay. What you could do with tech at the time was limited, so they made games harder to lengthen playtime. Games of the time were far more expensive as well, so more time spent was seen as "value." Modern games typically offer far more diverse gameplay/storytelling, so difficulty isn't necessarily a fixed metric. As it relates to multiplayer, I'm not sure what you're ranting about. There's any number of options out there, to include the fighting games you mentioned. _Star_ _Citizen_ will still have an aspirational 'ceiling,' it just isn't very appealing in its current state. That doesn't mean CIG is "catering to the bottom;" they simply have to balance gameplay for the average player, as all games do. They have a vision which the game isn't currently meeting.
Appreciate the vid. Not enough nuance going around lately. Few things... 1. Racers in the old model do fly off axis like that to pre-orient somewhat, but mostly because of trichording, which gave a huge acceleration advantage but is gone now. 2. Jousting is a perfectly legit tactic. Ineffective high speed flybys are not. Flybys became known as "jousting" and that IS basically fixed with MM. Actual jousting is here to stay. 3. The common complaint from experienced fighters, racers, etc, is that MM just isn't nearly as deep or as fun. Fun is subjective, but depth is objectively lessened with MM, especially for racing. Overall it's clearly net positive for the game by making flight more intuitive and simple, but by the same token it also does lower the skill ceiling drastically. My primary gameloop in the PU has been PvP for a while now, and it's definitely much less attractive now. I'm with you though, in hoping all the new systems planned should bring more depth, and do it in the right way, that is in a way that's not primarily reliant on mechanical input muscle memory.
I mean, they're really good. But if I say anyone is the best or try to put a finer point on it, I risk hurting others feelings and I'm not qualified to make those calls. So "fairly talented" will have to do. Lol.
I don't think that top tier dogfighters or even other current skilled players are the focus of master modes. They're looking at the thousands of players who will join the PU after SQ42 comes out. Those players will only have a couple of hundred hours of PVE playtime to hone their skills and won't want to feel like complete newbies when first moving over to SC. At that point physicalized damage for ships should be close to completion and , as is mentioned in this video, they can finally do some tuning with all the pieces to combat in place. Until then CIG will be more concerned about the skill floor than the ceiling.
My opinion is that CIG is just winging it; we need armor, we need big industrial ships in AC to test at least they thought about including a snub, which shows you exactly what the problem is; the flight model is omnipresent in the game but all CIG seem to care about is the combat side of things... SC is NOT a pure combat game, they tend to forget that. I'm really fed up with their focus on combat without thinking about the collateral damage (like you identified for racing ships). I'm slowly believing everybody at CIG is just interested in combat....
I wouldn't really have a Problem with Master Modes but I love the speed in combat as it is right now, Master Modes just feels to slow for me in combat, I want fast combat, I unironically like it to fight at such high speeds. Im not that good at PvP so i cant comment on the skill celing, but I like the combat as it is right now and after trying Master Modes a few more than 5 times it still feels slow to me. I just prefer the fighting as it is right now. Remember: Speed Is Life
They can raise the top speeds down the road and keep the framework of MM. They probably will have to. But MM and the way it affects ships as a concept I think is a net positive.
The problem is, if you make ships too fast, then combat just becomes a bunch of fly-bys. CIG wants _Star_ _Wars_ / 'WWII in Space.' For that, you need to slow things down/limit top speed.
Yeah A1's view is that of a competitive pvp'er. The game has to be playable for masses. Not sweat lord MLG pvp matches. That stuff happens in even arcade games.
Master modes is boring when it comes to flying, to slow and most flying maneuvers are gone. This is supposed to be a space sim not an arcade so get gud scrub. If they kick the speed up and distance but then master modes will be ok but interceptors are just bid right now why use a light fighter and its easy to kite a multi crew ship
I wonder if the people who like master modes have ever tried a competitive mmo? What do people usely do when they hit max level, well they just finished the tutorial part of the game and now the "real" game starts, so you start to do the end game raids to get better gear. Usually at some point before you get all your bis items, you will want to see what else the game has to offer, and what was that thing that was too hard or u didn't have the gear for? PVP. No matter the mmo a noob is gona get utterly dogged in their "placement matches" and will be put in a lower "ranking". I've played all kinds of mmos, ones where when you pvp nothing is changed and if the other guy is higher level or has better gear, as soon as he looks at you, you die. I've played mmos where the matches are "balanced" and you both get the same stats, you would still get dogged by the better players but you could at least apply some damage and feel like you were doing something or getting better. It was just up to your individual still. I've played competitive shooters, been mostly plat in ow, if I wanted to try diamond and for one season that I really cared t500. (tho by that season ow was already declining so the bar was way lower and it didn't really feel like much if an accomplishment) I like that in Sc it's about skill, if you suck well u suck, if u naturally get it good for you. I've had a cs and been in a nomad, and had 3 "normie" pilots attack me, killed them all, it felt amazing. A1 admits that the bar is too high curry, most people can't spend a jobs worth of time practicing flying in Star Citizen that's obvious. But honestly how many people here have even spent 2 hours in Arena Commander learning the most basic of basic skills?
If the barrier to entry is lower, you will have more PVP players. But if it stays high like it is, then no one will be itching to join. We can do both, have a high ceiling and a low barrier to entry.
Anyone that knows CR games knows he aims for widest audience where everyone has a chance to win if they are persistent. The loss of 'high skill' is code for the loss of their speed exploit on top of combat speeds that are too fast and warned they would be slowing things down. I would say it's more challenging now because you have to be more strategic and situationally aware. Without all the combat systems and physicalized atmo flight model in its a premature point to protest as if this balance is final like A1 was doing. I follow his stuff as he is a good pilot and IRL combat tactician from his military service, but he made a grievous mistake in his vid. He accused CIG of being in a feedback bubble and does not like it when people counter ask if he is not worried he is in a PvP bubble himself. One thing I agreed on though is MM won't fix jousting because that is more a player skill issue and artificially making it impossible does limit the overall combat experience. Even in EvE Online balance meta changed many times through the years and it's an eternal work in progress to balance the ship and game systems available at the time.
I look at the games I play outside of SC. Things are always changing. You never want a meta to stagnate anyway. Destiny 2 tells you each season what weapons will be good or not. It changes EACH season.
A1: You guys suck, get good. You guys don't want to learn and put in the time. Everyone else: Wtf? Dude like didn't think twice before posting his 3 videos..
It's clearly a knee-jerk reaction to the fear that his skill, his 'value,' is decreasing. He's still a top player, but he's no longer quite as 'special' as he once was. No more 1v4 or 1v12. The rest of us don't want to play that. It's just not fun.
A1 is trying to control the culture with his language which is cringe. but the game needs to be accessable and easy Lock and fire should be resident evil console aim assist like i would make the ESP a padlock aim assist so your gimbles track with in the arc but you only need to be facing your target and in the optimal distance / speed to get the best feel. We need PRO-CLASSIC for racing. race snubs don't have Q DRIVES so they should all have unique flight the fury can vert a snub can't so maybe having a RACE META later might be the better choice perfect each ships utility race ships should move like race ships combat ships should move like combat ships the UI is no longer as chunky as it use to be because resolutions in games has improved now all the devs aim for shrinking and stacking as much detail in the game as possble which is bad you wanna keep reactionary alerts as Audio que and center mass of a persons vision
They've lowered the detection range. But compared to the white paper of how stealth is supposed to work, there's still a lot missing. I think MM makes it easier to get there.
Right, but it only has 3x torps intended for larger ships; shoot-and-scoot. It's not going to be effective against small ships. The counter to an Eclipse is a CAP. There will be balance.
The main focus of your argument for racing snubs is weird. The Merlin is the heavier, meant to be slower, fighter version. The P-72 Archimedes is the racing model. Also to the point that a "low-skill" player shouldn't really expect to be able to race seems kind of a weird take in relation to a game. Like I can't drive a a sports car at 300mph in real life but I have games that let me. Plus the nerfed speed is still like 600 mph I think everyone will find a skill challenge somewhere.
The merlin is what's available to test right now. The point I was making is that unlike combat which can't be avoided, racing is entirely optional and should only be attempted by players with enough time to have gotten the necessary skills. New players or those still with low skill don't need to worry about it yet. Get some practice first. The problem currently is that MM brings the racing down so low that even someone as clumsy as I could probably get a decent time. So there's not a lot of room for growth.
My point is your testing the first round of fighters and stating that racing is in danger of being too easy. It's a bit of a stretch, and definitely jumping the gun. For someone who doesn't know that's a fighter and not the racing variant that might change their opinion of your opinion.
Also room to grow shouldn't come at the expense of new player experience. Lots of games cater to the top 10% and then go, "Oh my God! What happened to the other 90% of our players?!"
If we start ignoring feedback of top pvp players with excuse that most people don't have such a high skill then and you even worse you start to entertain idea of tuning and making game into style that fits players with none or shit skills then as a result we will get shit game which is exact opposite of what star citizen was suppose to be :(
Low barrier to entry, high skill ceiling, that's what they're working towards. If we stick with the old flight model, it's inaccessible to most players and that is going to kill your game. Every multiplayer has to make accommodations for lower skill players if they want to survive. Even games like Tarkov, Squad, etc.
At the same time, listening solely to the advice of top tier players may not make for fun/interesting gameplay. It's all about balance. You can flatten the curve and still maintain a rewarding skill-ceiling.
Newtonian physics should apply in space, its a simple concept but one CIG just cannot accept. CR wants ww2 dog fighting in space, maybe a hybrid of control surfaces and thrusters in atmo could be the answer to keep everyone happy, but to me they have dropped the ball on this one HUGE aspect of a space spacey spaceship game and that is that 13 years into this, the flight model should of been the very first thing finalized because of the proven laws of physics in the real world. We've been to the moon a few times under this fact if I recall correctly. We have a sattelite network and the internet because of this FACT don't we? They want immersion, they want to level the skill ceiling (cash new players) they want this they want that, but most of what they want is based in fiction not fact and that breaks down at points and you need the MAGICS from CIG to just fix it all and they can't. Stick with what we know in the real physics of this and make up the fiction in other areas. Out until Pyro, and not a menu choice
I think so many of the SC community are missing Avenger's core point here likely because a lot of the player base does not have much experience with competitive FPS games. The core goal with competitive FPS games (which many don't do right) is to make them easy to learn but hard to master. This satisfies both the new players who won't be good and the hardcore players who will have thousands of hours in the game. What Avenger is trying to say is that right now, Master modes feels like it's just easy to learn but the hard-to-master part is missing. The compromise CIG needs to make is to buff the ships that actually should fly fast so they can reach faster speeds. Adding an artificial speed cap onto every single ship in the game is a bandaid solution that imo, is bad game design. They've had years to balance ship combat and speeds, and master modes in it's current state, is really not sufficient for a game that will (hopefully) last 10+ years. I am not part of the Star Citizen PVP community, this is simply the perspective of someone who has played a lot of competitive multiplayer games.
I understand that perfectly. But throwing MM out before we even really have a chance to try it isn't fair either. If we know the PVP likes the old way, we can add elements back later. But without a way to lower the skill floor, it will remain prohibitive to new players. We need all the ships and mechanics in and we need new players satisfied and then we can look at other elements.
@@OddJobEntertainment Ya I def agree with you, part of the problem is that after years of development, we still don't really know what the core gameplay loops are going to be or how ship combat will work with Maelstrom so it's all speculative balancing rn. But ya, CIG's goal should be to lower the floor but keep the ceiling relatively high. I mostly wrote my comment just because after watching a few opinion videos and reading the comments, it seemed like most ppl were thinking in a binary way where it's either MM or Live model when I'm pretty sure Avenger was arguing for a middle ground. I do think Avenger was wrongly assuming that once MM is finalized and released to live it will stay the same way forever, which I actually don't think is the case.
By this logic with master modes just make everything in the game just like master modes, anybody could do any job they felt like and be the best right out the gate, let’s just make SC a live participation trophy simulator since we want to hold everyone’s hands
@OddJobEntertainment The skill-ceiling has to come down _some_ , at least enough to aline ship roles to expectations. Avenger One gave an example of a single Aurora going toe-to-toe with multiple other 'higher tier' ships and coming out ahead. This is *not* what most of us want. The idea that merit can or should surpass ship class to such an extreme breaks immersion and gameplay. You can be 'highly skilled,' but if I pull a gun on a master swordsman, there's a logical expectation that needs to be met.
@@redslate expert Aurora clapping some noob fighter cheeks is a totally fair expectation. Basic skill of using one's ship should be required to make it perform as it's designated role. A noob early jet fightet can totally be shot down by a biplane. Saying an Aurora is a sword & a LF is a gun is a very inaccurate comparison. In fact making entry level ship worthy, in given situations and ways, actually helps with newbie player picking up the fighting skills.
@@RedHornSSS *No* , a _biplane_ on *no* *reasonable* *terms* is shooting down a _fighter_ _jet_ . What are you 8? 🫠 The speed disparity alone would make that unreasonable, let alone the kinematics. The sword analogy isn't far off given the literal in-game analogy is a _hatchback_ vs a _military_ _jet_ . 😳 We're not talking 30min into the game. Average player vs top player: The skill cliff doesn't meet the game's intent, hence the desire to change it. Es todo finito cabrito!
Mastermodes is dog water. It slows us down to lower server load. I don't see any other good reason then that and they probably can't figure out how to make armour or gave up on it so they need other things to try and Ballance the game.....by making it elite dangerous. I'm betting they abandon the game soon
@@OddJobEntertainment market cap. How man individuals and alt accounts exist? To sell to 2 million unique people is about all a space game is really gonna do (look at ED honestly the most successful to date in terms of individual player counts). It's very likely they are there and they know it. Don't get me wrong I hope I'm wrong but I see this game being rushed out and "releasing" this year with alot of empty promises for expanding and fixing it then them just tapering off. If they spend all the money on "development" like they are the moment they stop who pays for the servers? How do they pay for the servers?
@@frogger2011ify They aren't going to release Star Citizen this year. They aren't even close to release, they are still working on the backend tech. Most gameplay systems are still waiting on server meshing and other things before they can even start development. SQ 42 is what they are going to release within a year or so. Sales of that will go into SC. It will also bring new players into the SC which in turn might buy more ships. SC player counts are stagnant because the game isn't done. Most gamers don't play alphas or betas they wait till a game is fully released. THe fact that this game has gotten the numbers it has gotten in a barely playable alpha should tell you how SC and SQ42 will do on full release.
@@frogger2011ify Your lost in your own fantasy if you think your testing the game. They stopped listening to us at around 3.7. Plus they have never said we would have early access to SQ42 even for "testing" proposes. It has always been stated we would get to play it when they fully release it. Because they don't want the story ruined because that is the meat of that game.
the issue is, that "you" dont have the time to put in is a you thing, but others can and if they cant be way better with time compared to others, then it is meaningless to play. sci-fi Space flight MMO whatever you want to call this, has to have a significant gap between noob/i dont have time and i do the work and maximizing my skills. yes people like that should feel like they are Masters, and you white belt.
well. do hauler job or mining, not every one should do dog fighting, just like how we have commercial pilots and fighter pilots, in irl. you can do so many thing in sc in which case you dont need to fly a fighter style ship. so just dont. @@OddJobEntertainment
You are missing the point. Who do you think are attacking those "commercial pilots." - High skill pvpers. Which is someone who has have had to spend hours and hours discord after discord in order to get good. What is not being said is that you have to spend months in order to defend yourself properly. Master modes is NOT a handicap for noobs. You just dontr have to spend weeks in a ship you want to master to have a fighting chance. Keep in mind that the PU is where it matters. You simply have assistance in controlling your ship. A Skilled pilot will ALWAYS win.
The problem is that skill-gap is excessively large. It supercedes ship class/tier/role in many instances. Just look at Avenger One's "Aurora" example; it's ridiculous. If a white belt pulls a gun on a black belt, all the training in the world won't make up for that advantage. Now try several white belts pulling guns...
The time he takes doing another job is the hours he is learning combat. The issue is that it very high ceiling still trumps the hours odd job puts in. So you are saying he should not defend himself when get gets attacked. So why try?
If combat were truly avoidable, then I could see your point. But so long as it is an expectation that I'll need to defend myself in my hauler, PVP needs to be fair. Even if I have an escort, I still need to be able to survive the fight sometimes.
The problem is: "number of hours" shouldn't make a Ford Focus perform like an F-18. That's just poor vision/design. Ditto multiple airframes engaging a single target.
well that's a ship design issue. but mostly comes down on what you see , and the Aurora is not a big ship, aka not easy to hit, cos of its narrow cross section. so its more an individual ship issue.@@redslate
but my original point is about, if you are a hauler, or miner get the dogfighting escort you need to not getting you're self killed. if you chose to want to be a fighter pilot, then you should have to put in the 200-500 hours in arena commander or in game flight, to be a good pilot, cos without that you should be just be okay against PVE (npc fighters) but against seasoned pilots you should not have any chance to win. Avenger one is right, tweek the lightfighters weapon range and the bigger ships bigger guns weapon range, and the travel speed of the projectiles, then the fighters have to come closer to engage, but will be under fire before they are in range, and the shields need a tweak so if lightfighters shoot at it, it wont make to much damage. this is way better then just simply limit speeds, which actually limit the maneuver capability's @@redslate
Got some bad news for you! You think its boring now because of the limited number of ships and I can guarantee you it is not going to matter how many ships are included, it is just so dumbed down, simple even the most brain dead among us are going to get bored of this game mode in short order and that was the number one complain A1 had and he is spot on! Likewise I think you are wrong thinking this mode has more room to grow, it can only grow based on very limited feature set because they have taken away so much of what made this mode work in the first place. There is far more room for adjustment in the current flight model since the game has evolved around what we have. So this idea its more flexible with less is absurd!
Okay, if we pretend for a moment that there were no reduction in speed while in SCM mode, what is the difference in combat capability and form? There isn't a difference but at that point you would still have new modes that enable you to adjust ship performance further. So even if all they do is that, MM does still offer more capability. But I predict that speeds are going to be adjusted heavily after all the ships are in the same system. Right now, MM is balanced based on a handful of ships. No way it stays the same with all 200+ ships doing the same thing.
The current flight model is absolutely terrible overall. Light fighter pilots are upset that they aren’t the meta in MM. I could care less.. ships need a role and that’s what MM is for. It’s not complete and it’s still being built upon. The combat in MM has been the most enjoyable experience so far as a crew and pilot. The current flight model is horrible in comparison because all it does is reward the most nimble ships into a meta. All ships should have their place in the verse in combat, not just light fighters.
That is an extreme take. The other extreme is closer to what we have now: Where 1x Aurora 'Ford Fiesta' takes on 4x Hornets 'Strike Fighters' and trounces them. Those 4x players get jaded and leave the game for good. This happens at-scale, leaving ~500 "elite" PvPers dogfighting each other a few times a week in what is _supposed_ to be a massive, open-world space game.
The only channel I trust to actually talk about Master Modes impressions
That is high praise. I appreciate that. I think Master Modes has good bones and provides a nice framework to build on.
I'm glad someone mentioned that the pvp focused crowd are not the majority of people who want to play the game.
The big thing I think people need to remember is that none of this is set in stone. Everything is in flux, everything is subject to change if/when a better idea comes along. Nuanced feedback is exactly what is needed to figure out the best system.
yup
I suspect snubs don't benefit from NAV mode because they don't have quantum drives. The lore we've seen around NAV mode is that it uses your QD, that's why you need to disable shields in that mode. The lack of a real NAV mode is probably also why the merlin has the fastest SCM speed of any ship so far, to compensate.
merlin has no nav mode?
Snubs are going to be B Tier at best without nav, how combat works now in MM is you fight till you are 2/3rds out of boost then hit nav mode to disengage (terrible gameplay imo)
Without that and significantly higher boost speeds in SCM your only option at that point is to die, there isn't the performance window to out fly someone and live.
@@PursauntYapperSnubs should be B tier for combat anyway. Only reason they do well now is the light fighter meta. Once we have proper armor etc, snubs will only be effective against each other and infantry, or when used in swarms against light fighters.
You can never get rid of jousting because people are bad at the game. They hold down W and turn the gun at you. Rinse and repeat. That creates jousting. The only way to stop that is atmosphere and energy loss. People that try that in warthunder run out of energy and are either too slow to turn or fall out of the sky. Impossible in 0 gravity. So jousting will not go away. Also, so glad you mentioned ship armors. Ppl are freaking out and we don’t even have a complete picture.
I honestly would love SC flight to feel similar to Warthunder flight especially in atmosphere.
I was thinking that as well. In flight and there's actually a way to simulate this even in zero G. If you're Pressing W and trying to bank it just creates strain on the frame to the point that you can cause the maneuvering thrusters to overheat and shut down. This could create a severe loss of Power to turn making any move/jousting even harder to maintain.
In Sci-Fi shows like Babylon 5 and BSG the Starfury & Raptor dont keep the primary thrust on all the time. They use their thrusters to dictate movement and rapidly use Fly-By-Wire to rapidly maneuvering thrusters shift their momentum while keeping firing angles. The .0 version of the flight model actually had this until they moved to the current 1.0 model we're stuck with now. It made heavier and medium ships formidable due to the weight and thrust. You could maintain velocity and move around where as a lighter fighter would lose velocity in a forward motion making them easier to hit unless they kept their primary thruster active. 1.0 added this BS that made Pressing W a must.
@@benbowman6995 Agree. I enjoys WT dogfights immensely. I really don't want the mastermode arbitrarily separating "fighting speed" and "runaway speed"
I think I understand what AvengerOne is doing. I believe he realizes since this mechanic is so new and CIG is eager for it to be accepted, that he can maybe sway players opinions to be inline with his own and give feedback to pressure CIG into making changes that will benefit him and what he wants to do in the game. And he will probably succeed, at least in part because the PvP community in SC is comparatively small and many watch his channel. It will be interesting to see how CIG handles it, the type of PvP environment CIG is making is similar to EveOnline. And that game is very tough for newer players who don't join big Organizations immediately or are the type satisfied with staying in High-Security sectors. And like you said, we still have so many other systems coming online later down the road and who knows how that will change things. Honestly surprised no one is even talking about control surfaces, not every ship will have them, so some fighters may purposely take fights into atmospheres to have an advantage. Some are saying heavy fighters are to slow, but again they aren't taking into account maelstrom and heavy armor types so all that will be rebalanced as those systems come online. Then the whole light fighters or interceptors are to slow in comparison to other ships, but how big of a speed advantage should they have, CIG never said they wouldn't continue to balance master modes. So all of it is just noise we should ignore until we get all these systems in our hands and fully understand how it all works together. I for one am tired of CIG having to restart development on various systems every 4 years and would like to see them actually finish a feature fully.
exactly, him an all the orgs constantly bombard spectrum with their prefferd game play request. That is why things are so highly skewed to pvp in general.
Avenger One saw the skill-curve flattening, saw what makes him 'unique' becoming less valuable, and immediately switched into lobbyist mode.
@@redslate Same for the others sweaty PVP autist..
Thoughtful take, really glad to see someone on my thought process with armor and what not. I've been feeling through the whole testing process, that the picture is a little too incomplete to give feedback on. In terms of combat balance we have no idea what minimum damage thresholds or armor damage reduction is going to look like. Let alone what the implications of malestrom would be to combat. I kind of wish we had more information to work with but sadly we can only go the speed of the world.
I think there's a good foundation here. But it ultimately will be up to seeing how everything else interacts before we really know anything.
I'm curious now, because ships without a quantum drive do not have nav mode, I imagine going at faster speed in nav mode using the razor LX or the mustang omega would be non issue but I wonder if there would be a difference in SCM speeds between the racing ships like the fury LX , p-72 and their baseline models.
I've listened to avenger one...he is not advocating for mastermodes to go.....only that it gets tuned to be have faster scm speeds.
I get the impression he waffles a bit. In parts he clearly states that he prefers the old flight model. But in others he offers the "A1" tuning as a compromise.
I maintain that we need to see how it works with all the ships before making any kind of big adjustments.
Thank you for saying this dude. Even when he's wrong no one listens to the guy and just starts putting words in his mouth
He's advocating for a higher skill gap.
@@DaGhostToast people liek to pathologize high skill players. I've seen this in most if not all games. This happens in apex, destiny 2, cod, etc.
Speaking as a barely informed observer (having never raced (nor planning to), and not being interested in ship PVP), my understanding is that ship handling is going to change in the future, on account of finally taking the ship's weight into consideration, so what we have _now_ as a result of introducing Master Mode might not necessarily reflect the final result.
That among many other things will affect the final product. Only some of those were discussed in the video.
The racetracks were also designed for the old flight model. I assumed they would need significant modifications to be tailored for the new flight model. So saying Master Mode is worse is a bit misleading.
If race ships have the higher nav mode speed, most of what I've shown goes out the window. But until we know, I'm a little nervous.
@@OddJobEntertainment Simply can't be the case due to the existence of snubs as racers. The merlin and fury were sold as such so there will have to be dedicated maps tailored to their speeds.
As a racer, just throw it in Nav mode and not much has changed... you don't need weapons or shields racing, the capacitor changes if anything provide too much boost now.
Tell me please, how the interceptor can chase and force to stop C2 which is in NAV mode and don't want to start fighting? Is the answer by only ramming?
It's pretty simple. If the interceptor is also in Nav Mode, it chases after the C2 and immediately has guns up upon switching to SCM. It also has the advantage that its shields will charge faster than the C2. You don't wait for weapons to come online like you do with shields. A C2 with no shield is vulnerable.
@@OddJobEntertainment Interceptor wont have nav mode as they wont have a QT drive. Many many fighters will not have a QT drive unless they are designated as LONG RANGE heavy like the Warden or the F8.
Players are going to have to rely on QT transporters to get them to areas of interdiction or patrol.
Interceptor does have a quantum drive. The Bucc is an interceptor.
@@OddJobEntertainment However they is just for now. They are not supposed to have a QT drive. It is just a place holder for game dev. This was discussed in 2.0.
Interesting! Snubs not have higher top speed, that kind of makes sense since they don't have a quantum drive and in game lore the extra nav mode speed comes from the quantum drive. Racing ships shouldn't have shields or weapons but should go much faster.
Exactly, so many things will balance out on their own. QT drive ships can out run fighters in NAV mode.
Nice video which ship do you prefer for salvaging
it really just depends on how many friends you have
I agree snubs, even those without quantum drives need a nav mode top speed increase comperable to their class. They only thing they shouldn't be able to do is an actual quantum jump.
As for master modrs overall, most of the big issues appear to be bugs which have been in the game for a long time and were just never addressed. E.g. backstraifing which I think was named poorly, as it refers to a bug with boost lasting 2x longer when in reverse. Pip spammong, or pip wiggle, is another big one. Which refees to the pilot moving their controlls in such a way as to make the taget marker move wildly off from the prograde vector of the ship. (Meaning its very difficult to know where to shoot for an uninformed player.) I think that applies to other issues as well. There are a lot of bugs in the flight model, and many of them have been there for a long time. Its my belief that these bugs are not well known outside the PvP circles, which have been known to exploit these bugs religiously. As such an even higher skill gap has been created, that shouldn't have been there in the first place. Which creates a further drift between the PvP community and the average player.
To be honnest, Avenger doesn't even have an idea of what a normal or new player experiances in the game. I have litterly caught him advising new players to buy and Arrow or Gladius with real money on day 1 before they even know what the game is about, or have an idea how it could change. I get the feeling that to him this game is a combat sim and nothing else. Which is sad because this game is and will be so much more.
To be clear im not saying Avengers views are bad ones. Just that he is having troubble seeing outside his experiance. In sports if you spend a long tine honing your craft, you actually want it to be more difficult as this makes those who are dedicated to that field shine more. This is a normal feeling, and its true in any field. That feeling when someone is wowed by your skill is addictive. I feel Avenger may be suffering from withdrawls when playing in the current MM models, where getting killstreaks of 5 or 10 without a scratch are much rarer. His input is definitely valueable, but I think it may be colored by his bias.
I haven't personally seen that from him but if you do any training with the avenger squad they will take you into AC and get you to pick up the free rental gladius if you don't own any other ship.
I've never once heard them say to any new player to go buy a ship just to practice.
A few seasons and you can just rent the arrow or anything else basically as much as you like in AC
@@PursauntYapper I actually had an arguement with him over this.
It was the players first day, and he was asking which ship he should buy. I told him to rent a few ships, and to try them out if he really liked one then he should go with that. Avenger stepped in and told him to just go with the gladdy or arrow. There was a bit of back and forth i'm leaving out, as its been a while, and I dont want to misquote, but that is the general gist of it.
It was in the comments of one of his UA-cam videos, I tried to find the video but couldn't remember which it was. If you look long enough you may come across it.
@@FrozenKnight21 yeah it's not a great experience for a new player being told to drop $300 on a spaceship nft.
What ship is jousting the most? is it the Buc? The Buc should joust. CIG made it that way for a reason.
Even in a bucc, jousting is bad flight control. Jousting is a skill issue.
@@OddJobEntertainment yea the issue with jousting really is where someone can't adapt to someone they are fighting, and so they just line up the enemy and throttle.
Weapons are useless until they are within range, and it's like horrible for both in that experience because it's like oh okay, now we're playing chicken and have to dodge...
@@OddJobEntertainment So why did CIG them self say the Buc would be real fast in a straight line & crap in any other direction? because its a Interceptor, thats its JOB!
@@OddJobEntertainment Wrong. Jousting is ECACTLY what you want to do in a Bucc.
This patch has actually made jousting worse and harder to do as the ships do not have the headroom to lead turn and close distance.
Plus with the far longer effective range of weapons fights are happening further apart
Not having MM doesn't mean high barrier of entry... No one really plays DCS, but a tons of people plays War Thunder.
War Thunder have a really easy to pick up mouse & keyboard control scheme compared to DCS. In the mean time it also have a relatively grounded flight model that allows most IRL flight tactics.That made the game's flight combat really easy to get into while also have tons of depth. Star Citizen should aim for somewhere like that.
High barrier of entry isn't exclusively dependent on MM, but the barrier to entry currently is very high nonetheless.
@@OddJobEntertainmentyes it is. But MM is not the only way to fix it.
War Thunder proves that, by providing a easy to get into control scheme and gamemode selections. you can maintain a easy entry while still retains flight characteristic complexity. Simultaneously serving entry level players and top PvPers.
I don't feel like cig should do much re-tuning of master modes. I feel like components and engineering should be the way forward. it would give synergy and importance to those other systems and allow players to customize and bond with at least their favorite ships.
I'm liking where it's at right now. Many other players much better than me say the same. But it's just a fact that a lot of tuning will be needed to make 200+ ships feel special.
Armor, weapon rebalance, missile performance, etc. There are so many variables that are not yet determined.
I would like mm if they allow simetric speeds in all axis and give a max scm speeds of 1500m/s and nav speed 20000m/s
Is there an extra zero in that nav speed?
That's not racing, that's drifting. If say, Grand Turismo's driving physics model makes drifting the fastest, then everybody would not even take it seriously. Why take seriously star citizen racing when it is basically drift king in space. Something seriously has gone wrong at CIG.
I feel like it’s a product of the physics in space. Kinda reminds me of slingshotting in the expanse universe.
I think the Buc having 5 guns is what the real issue is. it has so much firepower the flight model dont matter. a team of buc will win most time cuz the short time they get guns on target the target dies. the flight dont matter when you outgun the enemy in almost every match up.
With the Master Blaster episode, I think they talked about a lot of things that may mitigate that but of course it's all missing tech.
It's simply with the current balance Interceptors (bucc) are the new light fighter meta as they have the most performance headroom, speed is life.
They have shifted the meta ships from having 2 guns to now 5 😂 the new meta is interceptors because how it flies, more pew is just a bonus.
people are going to have a worse time now in the PU when this patch goes live
how i see it, if you cant put in the time to hone youre skills then you should suck at it just like in irl..
i played BF4 for 3 years. first i was terrible, with really bad K/D ratio. after 500 hours use the reset option, and my new overall K/D was really good, no not professional level paid E-sports good.
i am not talented and also way to old for that. but i did put in the time to get better, i played Guildwars2 for 4 years, i had multiple characters, some builds where maximized to be PVE some PVP optimal. its time and commitment. you dont want to dog-fight cos you cant put in the hours? okay, mine or haul and hire people that are willing to get good, and let them defend you against other players. the idea that every palyer should have a chance in fighting without skills, is ABSURD.
In a typical game you have a pretty standard bell curve where the majority of players are average skill. So most people are okay at the game. In Star Citizen, if we were to plot the skill distribution, we'd see a big slant toward the high skill range with very little in the average and low skill area. What this would indicate is that unless you're able to reach a significantly higher minimum time investment compared to those games you just mentioned, you will not do well in any metric. You can see this reflected in the scoreboards too. Consistently, I'm seeing 1 player on one or both teams that is lightyears ahead in score, kills, etc. while the rest of the lobby is significantly lower. Master Modes is about lowering the barrier to entry. The ideal is a low barrier and a high ceiling. They've said they're still working towards that, but I don't think it's going to get there until ALL players are providing feedback on it with ALL ships.
Hiring people to protect you in absurdity. No fighter pilot is going to hang around as you mine a rock.
I don’t understand how is the current flight model so hard for new players? It took me two training sessions with my org and I fell in love with it. I don’t want any other flight model than the current one.
Well be ready to be mad, cause it is not going to stay this way. Be ready for all fighters with exception of those deemed long range, to not have a QT drive to even catch a ship that does. As it should be, fighters will have to rely on QT transport ships to get to a place to interdict patrol or battle with other ships. The fighter meta will be balanced then.
I haven't heard any commentary on the components game of which no one has had an opportunity to play with because it doesn't yet exist. I'm fine if the master mode speeds exist as a base before player modifications.
This video is already out of date: Check A1 following videos where he goes in deep, VERY, to why this master mode is going to fail terribly.
The point is not just "Speed" but how you become a sitting duck in PVP 2v2 or more because you can't manouvre out of your enemy cone of fire: speed is too low compared to to shells, range of weapons too long and weapons are too accurate. Increased dispersion or lower shell speed could help but a small fighter can shot an hammerhead with impunity from afar, being to small to actually being severely hit, while the Ham is big and cover all your dispersion cone. Once shields are done, three or four Gladiuses can easily kill an hammerhead, provided they have the patience to end it. If the heat is too much, anyone of the fighters can riposition, but the Ham cannot!
More Armour? Just more time required to do exactly the same.
Do I think THIS Master mode has more potential of the Live one? Absolutely NOT! Because it boxes ship in a tiny arcadish box of space, while the Live Mode still lacks mass, acceleration, proper inertia, fuel weight, load out and aerodynamics. If you want to play WW2 Star Wars, get into atmosphere right now, possibly waiting for addition if control surfaces and proper mass.
I'm not saying MM is perfect now either. It needs a lot of adjustment. But if it did not currently bring a speed penalty, would it be all that different from the old model? So at the very least, MM gives the ability to diversify ships through the modes.
It's far too early to be jumping to conclusions...
Give it time. There's an infinite amount of balancing that can be done. "Master Modes" is just the latest attempt.
No Nav mode for snubs makes sense because they don't have quantum drives.
fair enough, but until we see what that means for the Mirai LX, I'm still concerned that this will negatively affect racing. The lore is always adjustable. It's just as easy to say that SCM speed is a limitation of total power plant output being shared with shields and weapons as it is to say it's from having a q-drive.
@@OddJobEntertainment maybe they'll have to do some hand waving and call it 'racing mode' so they don't have to add quantum drives
"...the final thing A1 misses out on is that most players cannot dedicate the amount of time he has to do PvP..."
He does "miss out" he BANKS ON IT. Dont forget the dude has a bit of a history. If he didn't think he could be on top he most likely wouldn't be here.
Worth pointing out that the P-52 isn't a racing darling. It's the P-72 that racers oike, and there's no MM version available yet. So no "true" racing ships have been publicly tested yet.
I realize that as well. But that's why I compare to the video I do. Both the same ships to illustrate the difference.
Master Mode is great. I like it. Im no big PVP Player but its way better as atm in PU where u get smacked from a M50 or something braindead that flys with 1,500m/sec around where u cant make anything against it when in a med/heavy fighter
maybe racing class ships could get a bigger bump to max speed under boost? fun video
This whole conversation comes at a time that I've basically given up on the PU and my star Citizen enjoyment purely comes from the thrill of flying (and honestly reteaching myself to fly with other control methods also). All I want is a really deep pool to jump into. I don't know how to look like Splen yet but the difference between people like me and him is my primary draw to the game right now. I'm not interested in salvage or moving boxes around on foot with a multitool. I just want to improve at flight models that will take years to master and the more challenge the better.
Totally I'm with you there, gameplay hasn't really changed in so long I try out the new thing and deal with all the bugs and 30k while trying to herd friends for hours to get some fun gameplay.
But if I have limited time and want to improve I'm learning how to actually fly. PVE has been zero challenge from the first few weeks of playing (MM currently is even easier PVE which is great for new players, but they need to add in harder AI systems and missions), imo if they want to keep the wider audience for a long time I believe they need a deep system with a high skill ceiling to keep players interested
I m not a top level PVPer is SC. I have a good understanding of the flight model and consider myself a decent pilot. Lack of time prevents me from being a 1%er. I say all that to say I see Avengers point. With master modes I feel I am already close to maxing out what can be done in that mode. I would like more room to grow. I agree that MM is a good idea but it still needs adjusting.
"I don't have to time to be the best but I'd like to maintain the option." 😜
@@TheMrcomics I will never be the best but I would like room to get better than I am now.
...And, CIG intends to continue "adjusting" Master Modes. They may even scrap it and come up with something else at some point. They're just move the ball closer to the goal.
YES he is wrong. who listens to that sweaty edge lord. He wants to have the advantage because of his HRS in the high speed combat he has been playing.
Note: ships without a quantum drive can not use nav mode
I understand that that is how it is currently justified, I don't think it's a good idea though. Another lore reason could just as easily be that SCM places a speed limit as a function of your total power plant now being split across the 3 subsystems.
@@OddJobEntertainment I don’t agree with the decision either was just making sure to relay the info just in case
i am 38 year old, back in hte 90's many games where skill based, you could only even finish the game if you did put in the hours, cos they where difficult. i played many games in the Arcade, where we played so we can have the highest scores.. it was always a battle even if you didnt do it in a direct way. well you could play fighting games against others, or racing games.
the point is you need talent or many many hours to be even just good in a game, now games are made so even cognitively challenged people can finish them...
that is a bad idea. games that cater to the bottom usually suck at the top.. cos there is none.
You're talking largely single player or split screen games where SC is a multi-player game. It's not the same. If you don't make it doable for a general audience, you won't have a game. Low barrier to entry, high ceiling.
@@OddJobEntertainmentThe barrier is low. This past coramor event I got into AC for the first time, reached the Hammerhead wave in pirate swarm in a couple of hours with an Arrow, and got my coin in the same day in Duos. It is not hard to pick up. What CIG is doing is lowering the ceiling, so that the perpetual newbies can take a shot at the good players. So "Low barrier to entry, high ceiling" is not the thing really. It disappoints me to know that this is going where there is not much to look forward in terms of growth. Combat will be just another chore to deal with like everything else.
And the "racing stuff" I assume will get reworked eventually. 280 is not racing.
Those older games used difficulty as a crutch to make up for lack of gameplay. What you could do with tech at the time was limited, so they made games harder to lengthen playtime. Games of the time were far more expensive as well, so more time spent was seen as "value." Modern games typically offer far more diverse gameplay/storytelling, so difficulty isn't necessarily a fixed metric.
As it relates to multiplayer, I'm not sure what you're ranting about. There's any number of options out there, to include the fighting games you mentioned. _Star_ _Citizen_ will still have an aspirational 'ceiling,' it just isn't very appealing in its current state. That doesn't mean CIG is "catering to the bottom;" they simply have to balance gameplay for the average player, as all games do. They have a vision which the game isn't currently meeting.
Appreciate the vid. Not enough nuance going around lately. Few things...
1. Racers in the old model do fly off axis like that to pre-orient somewhat, but mostly because of trichording, which gave a huge acceleration advantage but is gone now.
2. Jousting is a perfectly legit tactic. Ineffective high speed flybys are not. Flybys became known as "jousting" and that IS basically fixed with MM. Actual jousting is here to stay.
3. The common complaint from experienced fighters, racers, etc, is that MM just isn't nearly as deep or as fun. Fun is subjective, but depth is objectively lessened with MM, especially for racing.
Overall it's clearly net positive for the game by making flight more intuitive and simple, but by the same token it also does lower the skill ceiling drastically. My primary gameloop in the PU has been PvP for a while now, and it's definitely much less attractive now. I'm with you though, in hoping all the new systems planned should bring more depth, and do it in the right way, that is in a way that's not primarily reliant on mechanical input muscle memory.
Calling Splen a fairly talented racer is like saying Warren Buffett is pretty well off.
I mean, they're really good. But if I say anyone is the best or try to put a finer point on it, I risk hurting others feelings and I'm not qualified to make those calls. So "fairly talented" will have to do. Lol.
I don't think that top tier dogfighters or even other current skilled players are the focus of master modes. They're looking at the thousands of players who will join the PU after SQ42 comes out. Those players will only have a couple of hundred hours of PVE playtime to hone their skills and won't want to feel like complete newbies when first moving over to SC. At that point physicalized damage for ships should be close to completion and , as is mentioned in this video, they can finally do some tuning with all the pieces to combat in place. Until then CIG will be more concerned about the skill floor than the ceiling.
Yes, exactly. Get the floor lower and then get the ceiling back up. This game needs to appeal to millions.
My opinion is that CIG is just winging it; we need armor, we need big industrial ships in AC to test at least they thought about including a snub, which shows you exactly what the problem is; the flight model is omnipresent in the game but all CIG seem to care about is the combat side of things... SC is NOT a pure combat game, they tend to forget that. I'm really fed up with their focus on combat without thinking about the collateral damage (like you identified for racing ships). I'm slowly believing everybody at CIG is just interested in combat....
Almost feels the development of MM is driven by the need to finish SQ42 more than the need to make SC flight good.
I wouldn't really have a Problem with Master Modes but I love the speed in combat as it is right now, Master Modes just feels to slow for me in combat, I want fast combat, I unironically like it to fight at such high speeds. Im not that good at PvP so i cant comment on the skill celing, but I like the combat as it is right now and after trying Master Modes a few more than 5 times it still feels slow to me. I just prefer the fighting as it is right now. Remember: Speed Is Life
They can raise the top speeds down the road and keep the framework of MM. They probably will have to. But MM and the way it affects ships as a concept I think is a net positive.
The problem is, if you make ships too fast, then combat just becomes a bunch of fly-bys. CIG wants _Star_ _Wars_ / 'WWII in Space.' For that, you need to slow things down/limit top speed.
SC still has a long way to go to make ppl see that not every citizen has to be a fighter pilot, or a pilot at all for that matter
We need those options to exist first. But I don't think combat and spaceflight are entirely avoidable.
yes, come and be my hurricane gunner
Not all jousting is bad. Just the high speed one. And MM fixes that.
Yeah A1's view is that of a competitive pvp'er. The game has to be playable for masses. Not sweat lord MLG pvp matches. That stuff happens in even arcade games.
it's not mutually exclusive. A1 even advocates for changes that will make Turret gameplay better in his vids.
Asbysmal?
oh man, totally missed that. I guess someone did read that after all. lol abysmal
snubs do not get NAV mode. because NAV mode is tied to having a Quantum Drive. atleast currently.
Master modes is boring when it comes to flying, to slow and most flying maneuvers are gone. This is supposed to be a space sim not an arcade so get gud scrub. If they kick the speed up and distance but then master modes will be ok but interceptors are just bid right now why use a light fighter and its easy to kite a multi crew ship
You got screwed if you purchased a snub racer with real money. You cannot go to nav mode so you can't use the maximum speed in game.
I think they need to revisit that part for sure.
I wonder if the people who like master modes have ever tried a competitive mmo? What do people usely do when they hit max level, well they just finished the tutorial part of the game and now the "real" game starts, so you start to do the end game raids to get better gear. Usually at some point before you get all your bis items, you will want to see what else the game has to offer, and what was that thing that was too hard or u didn't have the gear for? PVP. No matter the mmo a noob is gona get utterly dogged in their "placement matches" and will be put in a lower "ranking". I've played all kinds of mmos, ones where when you pvp nothing is changed and if the other guy is higher level or has better gear, as soon as he looks at you, you die. I've played mmos where the matches are "balanced" and you both get the same stats, you would still get dogged by the better players but you could at least apply some damage and feel like you were doing something or getting better. It was just up to your individual still. I've played competitive shooters, been mostly plat in ow, if I wanted to try diamond and for one season that I really cared t500. (tho by that season ow was already declining so the bar was way lower and it didn't really feel like much if an accomplishment) I like that in Sc it's about skill, if you suck well u suck, if u naturally get it good for you. I've had a cs and been in a nomad, and had 3 "normie" pilots attack me, killed them all, it felt amazing. A1 admits that the bar is too high curry, most people can't spend a jobs worth of time practicing flying in Star Citizen that's obvious. But honestly how many people here have even spent 2 hours in Arena Commander learning the most basic of basic skills?
If the barrier to entry is lower, you will have more PVP players. But if it stays high like it is, then no one will be itching to join. We can do both, have a high ceiling and a low barrier to entry.
Anyone that knows CR games knows he aims for widest audience where everyone has a chance to win if they are persistent. The loss of 'high skill' is code for the loss of their speed exploit on top of combat speeds that are too fast and warned they would be slowing things down. I would say it's more challenging now because you have to be more strategic and situationally aware.
Without all the combat systems and physicalized atmo flight model in its a premature point to protest as if this balance is final like A1 was doing. I follow his stuff as he is a good pilot and IRL combat tactician from his military service, but he made a grievous mistake in his vid. He accused CIG of being in a feedback bubble and does not like it when people counter ask if he is not worried he is in a PvP bubble himself. One thing I agreed on though is MM won't fix jousting because that is more a player skill issue and artificially making it impossible does limit the overall combat experience. Even in EvE Online balance meta changed many times through the years and it's an eternal work in progress to balance the ship and game systems available at the time.
I look at the games I play outside of SC. Things are always changing. You never want a meta to stagnate anyway. Destiny 2 tells you each season what weapons will be good or not. It changes EACH season.
@@OddJobEntertainment I wished CIG had mixed up things more often. It would have reduced the shock response to MM some I think.
A1: You guys suck, get good. You guys don't want to learn and put in the time.
Everyone else: Wtf?
Dude like didn't think twice before posting his 3 videos..
It's clearly a knee-jerk reaction to the fear that his skill, his 'value,' is decreasing. He's still a top player, but he's no longer quite as 'special' as he once was.
No more 1v4 or 1v12.
The rest of us don't want to play that. It's just not fun.
A1 is trying to control the culture with his language which is cringe.
but the game needs to be accessable and easy
Lock and fire should be resident evil console aim assist
like i would make the ESP a padlock aim assist
so your gimbles track with in the arc but you only need to be facing your target and in the optimal distance / speed to get the best feel.
We need PRO-CLASSIC for racing. race snubs don't have Q DRIVES so they should all have unique flight
the fury can vert a snub can't so maybe having a RACE META later might be the better choice
perfect each ships utility
race ships should move like race ships
combat ships should move like combat ships
the UI is no longer as chunky as it use to be because resolutions in games has improved now all the devs aim for shrinking and stacking as much detail in the game as possble which is bad you wanna keep reactionary alerts as Audio que and center mass of a persons vision
I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling with UI.
Stealth is already insanely strong. Eclipse coming up to 600m before being visible is insane. Most players never see you coming :)
They've lowered the detection range. But compared to the white paper of how stealth is supposed to work, there's still a lot missing. I think MM makes it easier to get there.
Right, but it only has 3x torps intended for larger ships; shoot-and-scoot. It's not going to be effective against small ships. The counter to an Eclipse is a CAP. There will be balance.
The main focus of your argument for racing snubs is weird. The Merlin is the heavier, meant to be slower, fighter version. The P-72 Archimedes is the racing model. Also to the point that a "low-skill" player shouldn't really expect to be able to race seems kind of a weird take in relation to a game. Like I can't drive a a sports car at 300mph in real life but I have games that let me. Plus the nerfed speed is still like 600 mph I think everyone will find a skill challenge somewhere.
The merlin is what's available to test right now.
The point I was making is that unlike combat which can't be avoided, racing is entirely optional and should only be attempted by players with enough time to have gotten the necessary skills. New players or those still with low skill don't need to worry about it yet. Get some practice first. The problem currently is that MM brings the racing down so low that even someone as clumsy as I could probably get a decent time. So there's not a lot of room for growth.
My point is your testing the first round of fighters and stating that racing is in danger of being too easy. It's a bit of a stretch, and definitely jumping the gun. For someone who doesn't know that's a fighter and not the racing variant that might change their opinion of your opinion.
Also room to grow shouldn't come at the expense of new player experience. Lots of games cater to the top 10% and then go, "Oh my God! What happened to the other 90% of our players?!"
If we start ignoring feedback of top pvp players with excuse that most people don't have such a high skill then and you even worse you start to entertain idea of tuning and making game into style that fits players with none or shit skills then as a result we will get shit game which is exact opposite of what star citizen was suppose to be :(
Low barrier to entry, high skill ceiling, that's what they're working towards. If we stick with the old flight model, it's inaccessible to most players and that is going to kill your game. Every multiplayer has to make accommodations for lower skill players if they want to survive. Even games like Tarkov, Squad, etc.
At the same time, listening solely to the advice of top tier players may not make for fun/interesting gameplay. It's all about balance.
You can flatten the curve and still maintain a rewarding skill-ceiling.
Newtonian physics should apply in space, its a simple concept but one CIG just cannot accept. CR wants ww2 dog fighting in space, maybe a hybrid of control surfaces and thrusters in atmo could be the answer to keep everyone happy, but to me they have dropped the ball on this one HUGE aspect of a space spacey spaceship game and that is that 13 years into this, the flight model should of been the very first thing finalized because of the proven laws of physics in the real world. We've been to the moon a few times under this fact if I recall correctly. We have a sattelite network and the internet because of this FACT don't we? They want immersion, they want to level the skill ceiling (cash new players) they want this they want that, but most of what they want is based in fiction not fact and that breaks down at points and you need the MAGICS from CIG to just fix it all and they can't. Stick with what we know in the real physics of this and make up the fiction in other areas. Out until Pyro, and not a menu choice
I think so many of the SC community are missing Avenger's core point here likely because a lot of the player base does not have much experience with competitive FPS games. The core goal with competitive FPS games (which many don't do right) is to make them easy to learn but hard to master. This satisfies both the new players who won't be good and the hardcore players who will have thousands of hours in the game. What Avenger is trying to say is that right now, Master modes feels like it's just easy to learn but the hard-to-master part is missing.
The compromise CIG needs to make is to buff the ships that actually should fly fast so they can reach faster speeds. Adding an artificial speed cap onto every single ship in the game is a bandaid solution that imo, is bad game design. They've had years to balance ship combat and speeds, and master modes in it's current state, is really not sufficient for a game that will (hopefully) last 10+ years.
I am not part of the Star Citizen PVP community, this is simply the perspective of someone who has played a lot of competitive multiplayer games.
I understand that perfectly. But throwing MM out before we even really have a chance to try it isn't fair either. If we know the PVP likes the old way, we can add elements back later. But without a way to lower the skill floor, it will remain prohibitive to new players. We need all the ships and mechanics in and we need new players satisfied and then we can look at other elements.
@@OddJobEntertainment Ya I def agree with you, part of the problem is that after years of development, we still don't really know what the core gameplay loops are going to be or how ship combat will work with Maelstrom so it's all speculative balancing rn. But ya, CIG's goal should be to lower the floor but keep the ceiling relatively high. I mostly wrote my comment just because after watching a few opinion videos and reading the comments, it seemed like most ppl were thinking in a binary way where it's either MM or Live model when I'm pretty sure Avenger was arguing for a middle ground. I do think Avenger was wrongly assuming that once MM is finalized and released to live it will stay the same way forever, which I actually don't think is the case.
By this logic with master modes just make everything in the game just like master modes, anybody could do any job they felt like and be the best right out the gate, let’s just make SC a live participation trophy simulator since we want to hold everyone’s hands
Nope. Not what was said at all. Lower the barrier to entry, keep the skill ceiling high. We can do both.
I don't even like MM but that's a jump of logic
@OddJobEntertainment The skill-ceiling has to come down _some_ , at least enough to aline ship roles to expectations.
Avenger One gave an example of a single Aurora going toe-to-toe with multiple other 'higher tier' ships and coming out ahead. This is *not* what most of us want. The idea that merit can or should surpass ship class to such an extreme breaks immersion and gameplay.
You can be 'highly skilled,' but if I pull a gun on a master swordsman, there's a logical expectation that needs to be met.
@@redslate expert Aurora clapping some noob fighter cheeks is a totally fair expectation. Basic skill of using one's ship should be required to make it perform as it's designated role. A noob early jet fightet can totally be shot down by a biplane.
Saying an Aurora is a sword & a LF is a gun is a very inaccurate comparison. In fact making entry level ship worthy, in given situations and ways, actually helps with newbie player picking up the fighting skills.
@@RedHornSSS *No* , a _biplane_ on *no* *reasonable* *terms* is shooting down a _fighter_ _jet_ . What are you 8? 🫠 The speed disparity alone would make that unreasonable, let alone the kinematics. The sword analogy isn't far off given the literal in-game analogy is a _hatchback_ vs a _military_ _jet_ . 😳
We're not talking 30min into the game. Average player vs top player: The skill cliff doesn't meet the game's intent, hence the desire to change it. Es todo finito cabrito!
Mastermodes is dog water. It slows us down to lower server load. I don't see any other good reason then that and they probably can't figure out how to make armour or gave up on it so they need other things to try and Ballance the game.....by making it elite dangerous. I'm betting they abandon the game soon
Oh come on, 600 million dollars is a good reason to at least keep going. This game is a cash cow. It's not going to get dropped.
@@OddJobEntertainment market cap. How man individuals and alt accounts exist? To sell to 2 million unique people is about all a space game is really gonna do (look at ED honestly the most successful to date in terms of individual player counts). It's very likely they are there and they know it. Don't get me wrong I hope I'm wrong but I see this game being rushed out and "releasing" this year with alot of empty promises for expanding and fixing it then them just tapering off. If they spend all the money on "development" like they are the moment they stop who pays for the servers? How do they pay for the servers?
@@frogger2011ify They aren't going to release Star Citizen this year. They aren't even close to release, they are still working on the backend tech. Most gameplay systems are still waiting on server meshing and other things before they can even start development.
SQ 42 is what they are going to release within a year or so. Sales of that will go into SC. It will also bring new players into the SC which in turn might buy more ships.
SC player counts are stagnant because the game isn't done. Most gamers don't play alphas or betas they wait till a game is fully released. THe fact that this game has gotten the numbers it has gotten in a barely playable alpha should tell you how SC and SQ42 will do on full release.
@@midriffzero zero chance that sq42 is any father along then the pu dude...we are the testers....I think your lost to the spin
@@frogger2011ify Your lost in your own fantasy if you think your testing the game. They stopped listening to us at around 3.7.
Plus they have never said we would have early access to SQ42 even for "testing" proposes. It has always been stated we would get to play it when they fully release it. Because they don't want the story ruined because that is the meat of that game.
the issue is, that "you" dont have the time to put in is a you thing, but others can and if they cant be way better with time compared to others, then it is meaningless to play.
sci-fi Space flight MMO whatever you want to call this, has to have a significant gap between noob/i dont have time and i do the work and maximizing my skills. yes people like that should feel like they are Masters, and you white belt.
Low barrier to entry, high ceiling. That's the goal. We had the high ceiling, and we can work back to that. But we need a lower barrier to entry.
well. do hauler job or mining, not every one should do dog fighting, just like how we have commercial pilots and fighter pilots, in irl. you can do so many thing in sc in which case you dont need to fly a fighter style ship. so just dont.
@@OddJobEntertainment
You are missing the point. Who do you think are attacking those "commercial pilots." - High skill pvpers. Which is someone who has have had to spend hours and hours discord after discord in order to get good. What is not being said is that you have to spend months in order to defend yourself properly. Master modes is NOT a handicap for noobs. You just dontr have to spend weeks in a ship you want to master to have a fighting chance. Keep in mind that the PU is where it matters. You simply have assistance in controlling your ship. A Skilled pilot will ALWAYS win.
The problem is that skill-gap is excessively large. It supercedes ship class/tier/role in many instances. Just look at Avenger One's "Aurora" example; it's ridiculous.
If a white belt pulls a gun on a black belt, all the training in the world won't make up for that advantage. Now try several white belts pulling guns...
the white belt needs training so he becomes a black belt. @@redslate
in sc, if you are not willing to do the hours, then be a hauler, a miner, a gunner on a bigger ship, and dont do fighter pilot missions.. period.
The time he takes doing another job is the hours he is learning combat. The issue is that it very high ceiling still trumps the hours odd job puts in.
So you are saying he should not defend himself when get gets attacked. So why try?
If combat were truly avoidable, then I could see your point. But so long as it is an expectation that I'll need to defend myself in my hauler, PVP needs to be fair. Even if I have an escort, I still need to be able to survive the fight sometimes.
The problem is: "number of hours" shouldn't make a Ford Focus perform like an F-18. That's just poor vision/design. Ditto multiple airframes engaging a single target.
well that's a ship design issue.
but mostly comes down on what you see , and the Aurora is not a big ship, aka not easy to hit, cos of its narrow cross section. so its more an individual ship issue.@@redslate
but my original point is about, if you are a hauler, or miner get the dogfighting escort you need to not getting you're self killed.
if you chose to want to be a fighter pilot, then you should have to put in the 200-500 hours in arena commander or in game flight, to be a good pilot, cos without that you should be just be okay against PVE (npc fighters) but against seasoned pilots you should not have any chance to win. Avenger one is right, tweek the lightfighters weapon range and the bigger ships bigger guns weapon range, and the travel speed of the projectiles, then the fighters have to come closer to engage, but will be under fire before they are in range, and the shields need a tweak so if lightfighters shoot at it, it wont make to much damage. this is way better then just simply limit speeds, which actually limit the maneuver capability's @@redslate
Got some bad news for you! You think its boring now because of the limited number of ships and I can guarantee you it is not going to matter how many ships are included, it is just so dumbed down, simple even the most brain dead among us are going to get bored of this game mode in short order and that was the number one complain A1 had and he is spot on! Likewise I think you are wrong thinking this mode has more room to grow, it can only grow based on very limited feature set because they have taken away so much of what made this mode work in the first place. There is far more room for adjustment in the current flight model since the game has evolved around what we have. So this idea its more flexible with less is absurd!
Okay, if we pretend for a moment that there were no reduction in speed while in SCM mode, what is the difference in combat capability and form? There isn't a difference but at that point you would still have new modes that enable you to adjust ship performance further. So even if all they do is that, MM does still offer more capability. But I predict that speeds are going to be adjusted heavily after all the ships are in the same system. Right now, MM is balanced based on a handful of ships. No way it stays the same with all 200+ ships doing the same thing.
Git gud nerd
The current flight model is absolutely terrible overall. Light fighter pilots are upset that they aren’t the meta in MM. I could care less.. ships need a role and that’s what MM is for. It’s not complete and it’s still being built upon. The combat in MM has been the most enjoyable experience so far as a crew and pilot. The current flight model is horrible in comparison because all it does is reward the most nimble ships into a meta. All ships should have their place in the verse in combat, not just light fighters.
That is an extreme take.
The other extreme is closer to what we have now: Where 1x Aurora 'Ford Fiesta' takes on 4x Hornets 'Strike Fighters' and trounces them. Those 4x players get jaded and leave the game for good. This happens at-scale, leaving ~500 "elite" PvPers dogfighting each other a few times a week in what is _supposed_ to be a massive, open-world space game.