Making A Die Holder.... But Better
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- Опубліковано 6 чер 2024
- G'day everyone,
In spite of the fact that I have a lathe that is equipped with a threading leadscrew and a tailstock die holder, I still use my die holder quite often for cutting threads. That is fine, except the standard die holder (and every on that I have come across) is not very well designed. I tend to use 3 screws to hold the dies and I never know which screws are holding when it comes time to remove the die. I always seem to have a screw come loose and drop on the floor.
I think there is a better way of doing this, at least for most non split dies, which is what I use.
In this video I will make a die holder with a similar design to the tap holder/tap wrench that I made last year. I will machine and weld up the body from some 1020 steel and case harden it in the furnace to give it a wear resistant and durable case.
I hope you like the design and like the video.
Mill - Sieg x2.7l
Lathe - Hafco Al 250G
Making A Die Wrench
#machining #diy
Timestamps
0:00 - Intro
2:24 - Machining The Body
6:28 - Machining The Handles
9:59 - Machining The Cap
14:06 - Machining The Locking Pin
15:53 - Heat Treating and Case Hardening
20:16 - Assembly and Testing - Наука та технологія
Nice work. I would suggest threading the handles and the main body together. You can still heat treat them, then assemble with thread locker (the red stuff will never come loose!). This will give you the aesthetics you want without compromising the function. I love to see how much you do with your shop. We also need to take up a collection for you to get a port-a-band saw!
@Walter Wojcik agreed there was no need to weld at all and if he wanted a bandsaw he would have already bought one.
@WalterWojcik I like the thread idea, threading to a shoulder or brazing after heat treat is how I would have built it. I may need to kick off a similar project.
He's discussed why he doesn't have a bandsaw in the past and even did a shop tour video which reinforces the point. Exec brief, his shop looks to be smaller than my bedroom.
He needs a metal cutting miter saw or better, turn a regular miter saw in a metal cutting saw, more than a bandsaw : Less footprint, Cuts cold and dry even the hardened stuff.
My 5000 RPM 10 inch (254mm) miter saw gets regularly fitted with a 7.25" (184mm) or 6.50" (165mm) steel cutting blade (it lowers both cost and the cutter's actual velocity within steel cutting specs for carbide)
@@rolfbjorn9937 A port-a-band goes in storage when not in use (0 footprint), a miter saw begs for a permanent setup. Also a port-a-band can be used on the lathe for parting.
The hack saw is his trademark.
My grandad told me when he was alive “a grinder and paint, makes the welder I ain’t” although painting not really a need here as long as you have good penetration you can always clean up the welds.
a classic!
I haven't watched the whole video yet, so my comments may be a little off. I quite like the split dies, (I have not seen a holder with 5 screws though, only 3). I always use the middle screw to open the die up and just nip the two clamp screws, cut the thread and then test it against the "nut," then start to back out the centre screw and nip up the clamp screws to fit the thread to the nut. The hex die nuts I would only use to clean up an existing thread, certainly not use them to cut a new thread.
There is a type of die which is in two halfs, in a special stock that has taper rails the halfs of the dies slide on. They are the best ones ever, but you just don't see them anymore, I liked the fact you could thread in the middle of a bar just for the hell of it.
Regarding the knurled handles I often find them a bit rough on the skin. What I do to balance this out with the need for increased grip is to turn down the highspots of the knurl after the fact. That makes for a much more comfortable grip, and really classy finish I think.
Hex dies were designed for truing up existing threads, and the middle of the three screws on top of the die holder is intended to open up the die when it is split, to form thread in multiple consecutive deeper passes. My father use to do that in the fiftees, when I was a child.
Like I said in the video I don’t use split dies. And whilst hex dies are meant for chasing threads, we used to have lots of them which I used to years to cut threads from bar stock. I never ran into issues. Granted it was more work around the house stuff (where the thread tolerance isn’t as important) than industrial but it still worked just fine.
A split die is very handy indeed when cutting a thread to go into a worn thread to make it fit well. Pretty much a must when repairing things rather than making all new stuff.
There are hex dies and round dies, rethreading dies and cutting dies, just because its hex shaped does not mean its a rethreading die.
The whole idea and science behind case-hardening is so freakin cool.
If you think carbonizing is cool, check out nitriding
The hex dies are usually thread chasers, not meant to cut a thread from scratch, but a set of them is worth their weight in gold, you cant get a normal die holder on to most in situ studs where you need to clean up a thread, there just isnt enough clearance for the holder to be able to turn.
Your design for a die holder is a great idea, but you also gave me one of those "oh dur" moments... I am sick of doing all sorts of weird things to tighten those mongrel screws that take flat head screw drivers in die holders. Usually i grip the outside of them in the vice and twist the whole holder to get some hurt on them. But your quick shot of your lathe holder setup where you mention using allen keys to tighten it... I am going down to the shed right now to see if i can chuck the mongrel screws in the holders and replace them with grub screws that take allen keys...
You can cut the centre slot of the cheap dies. this makes them split dies that allows you to make different cut depths. When cutting harder stock doing in a few passes is essential as cheap dies are quite soft.
Just did a quick bite test and these dies that I use are over 65HRC. Some cheaper carbon steel ones seem to be in the range of 60-65HRC
Well I learned something today. How to add carbon to mild steel so it can be hardened, can't wait to try. Thanks for posting 🙏
clickspring has some stuff about case hardening too
Love the way your lathe work turned out
This build is just to die for
I will see myself out✌️
You don't get to see yourself out after that one, we get to throw you out! Good work. 🤣
I love the design. I was looking for a die holder just like that and never found any. I'm glad that someone who can actually make things thought of it too
When using the original die holder with those holding screws. You can paint the screw threads when the threads are disengaged from the internal diameter of the die holder, without a die in there of course. That way you’ll know what screw is and isn’t backed out. The die holders made now days are so cheap feeling that making a new one that I don’t feel like I’m going to break is on my list of to do’s. Can’t wait to see what you do next.
Nice heavy duty die holder, and good to see the focus on hardening the tool. We shared this video on our homemade tools forum last week 😎
And now I’m scrapping mine and starting again.. thanks hahah !!! 🤝🏽
Interesting tool project, I also liked Lathe. Nice job.
A good design and build - if you put two threaded holes either side of the threaded shaft, you could (optionally) use and adjust your split dies.
Yes I am sure that could definitely work
lovely idea
Woohoo! New video! Thanks!
I legit just built myself one this week. Excited to see what mod your going to put on yours :)
Nicely done! I fully agree on the commercial die holders...
That looks solid af. Nice.
A die holder is one of those quintessential shop projects that everyone should make. You can do it all on your lathe with a little bit of ingenuity in work holding and make it quite well. Get a hold of some tasty chunks and it will 100% come out better than modern tooling that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
Very nice build , love the design ! I'm interested in buying one..
It is good that you show that you are Human in making mistakes I can almost guarantee that most people who make videos edit out mistakes before releasing their video
I think thats a superb way to solve the problem if die holders...great work and the welds weren't that bad, Ive just switched to using flux core (difficulty getting argon co2 mix) and you should see those weld theyre truly embarrassing.
Fluxcore is not great i agree, I assume you know that you need to reverse the polarity with fluxcore?
Otherwise it is really terrible 🙂
@@TRABWorkshop-ri4ql I do thanks, Ive seen the appalling mess that happens when you don't lol bb's everywhere ..its like mining with a welder....it might even work for gouging
I'd grab one, they are excellent
Another killer video, very nice
Nice project.
You have to watch the hex shaped dies back in the day those were made to only chase threads not to cut new threads. I have noticed a lot of them these days are now made to cut threads .
very nice work 😁👍
One thing seen that will end up causing you pain down the road is those exposed M12 threads, slide your finger on that and it's gonna take a chunk of flesh with it, but just shortening the center pin to where the threads aren't exposed would remedy that problem without having to completely remake it.
good solution to a problem!
For your 2.0 design you could taper the handles, that would look nice!
Fantastic work, dude! It looks great! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I made a similar tool, and rather than trashing the looks with a cruddy weld job (at my best) I drilled thru the body and handle and press fit a pin then peened the ends into chamfers I added to the pin hole. Then filed smooth. It works, have to look for the pins, but. And you can drill the thru hole thru the pin and it shouldn’t matter, or offset the pinto just catch the end of the handle.
To be fair, on split button dies, two of the screws in the holder are for increasing the cut depth by compressing the die and one (the pointed grub screw) is for reducing cut depth by widening the button’s split. These are a fine adjustment for the closeness of fit for the threads in a nut or tapped hole.
And REQUIRED
Yes this design is flawed. Using split dies will cut threads too big. The video shows a complete lack of understanding of the process. It's a bit rich to assume you have re invented the wheel.
He knows. He said, he's not using split dies, he has maybe two of them.
@@barmetler Exact, he talked about it at 6:14
@@marley589he literally said, in the video, the holder WONT work for split dies. 😂
I've seen the problem you had with the inserts recently with some cheap parting/grooving inserts where 3 of the ends just crumbled trying to part a piece of 12mm stainless, the 4th worked fine. I assume the WC and binder hadn't been well mixed or sintered properly for those that failed, others in the set seemed fine.
Regarding the knurling, I make a grip for a product and I diamond knurl it but I always run a single cut file over the knurl to knock off the sharp peaks that are often formed. Still grippy but far more comfortable to hold for longer periods as it doesn't tend to chew up ones hand.
Hey there, got a little advice for u in terms of working with carbite inserts on interrupted cuts. Usually carbite inserts tempt to hold longer if u crank up the cutting speed and slow down the feedrate to aprox 0,06-0.08mm, this secures lower knocks on the cutting edge because wenn the feedrate is high, the force of reentering the material is too much for the cutting edge. In terms of depth of cut, u do not have to worry but remember its always besser for the cutting radius to be fully engaged (depth of cut should be higher than the radius of the tool-especally when roughting)
Greetings from a full time mechanic from germany:)
Great job as we say in the UK !! would love to purchase one depending on price & shipping (Disabled Ex-Engineer) Love all your content what I have watched so far !! keep up the great content.
Nice work - I have trouble with arthritis on skinny handles so repurpose an old broom handle boring out to fit over std handles.
Geat project. I just made the this old Tony tap wrench I made a video on it. But I would love to make this thing too some drawings would come in handy! Thanks for the video and have a great day
You could make an insert with dimple that is offset for the handle to push against. That way you could screw down on the dimples in the die. Use a slot that doesn't go through on each side of the dimple to stop it spinning and not allow it to push through.
Yes you certainly could. I was thinking about making the pin eccentric and raise it up to align with the dimple. But given how well it worked with the slot, I don’t think it was necessary
I have offset handle die holders they work great and you always know witch side is up/out, function over form when it comes to tools. More up front planning on the bore then drill the cross holes. Cross bores are the worst on tools.
Ooof, that moment when the work is thrown, the tool is chipped, and I just made some new scrap. I feel that.
I find that 3 jaw on the mini lathes notorious for having parts slip.
Hello All, From The UK👋
Hello from the USA
Very nice effort! I’d maybe lengthen the part that covers the thread, but it’s a handsome thing.
Cutting a thread on a manual lathe is sometimes a bit challenging. The perfect solution is an ELS. The version of Maxim Kachurovskiy even makes it possible to set stopping points right and left. Then there is no risk to crash the cutter into a shoulder. I have built one (ELS2 version) and come along with absolutely no die in my workshop. It can also be used as a power feed that stops at a shoulder. No more abuse for vernier calipers to mark a part :-)
Man i need to make all these thread tools. Wonder if i can make adapters for using one tool for each size die
Awsome work mate, I bought a lathe a few months back and have made a fair amount of tools following your vids, I would love a drawing of this die wrench if available. Cheers for the vid mate ✌️
A fun way to not have the welds would be to temperature fit them where the parts are slightly less than 0 clearance, and you heat the die holder and cool the handle.... then smash them together. I've seen one where they coarse threaded the parts and did that too.
I would have just loktited them in after the hardening process.
You should make a small rotary table it will benefit the welds you do
I think it came out pretty great! That's a heavy duty die holder for sure, waaaay better than those crappy thin-section cast ones from cheapo kits. Might be worth shortening the clamping pin a bit though, to engage a few more turns on that thread?
I too love the simplicity of the tool, but I also feel that you should have added a compression screw for making the adjustable depth of cut. Really helps with starting and finishing nice threads.
You can always add one if you’re using split dies. Cheers
@@artisanmakes thanks to you, this is my "advanced" tool goal. Love your content, it really helps lay out a starting point and what is possible. Greetings from Canada 🌞
Hi love the die holder would love set of plans. 😊
Looks nice! I was thinking it might be “okay” with just some locktight instead of the welds, but that probably wouldn’t hold, and certainly wouldn’t allow any post heat treatment. And like you say- it’s not going anywhere, and it’ll function well! Someday I‘ll step out of my woodworking comfort zone and get into hobby metal work- kind of opposite of you!
Комментарий в поддержку канала и ролика, а также труда мастера
Love your videos , you mentioned the welds on the tool holder looked rough . Could you clean them up in the lathe ? Or the welds to hard to turn down in the lathe ?
Accommodating those split dies should be fairly simple, just mill a slot in them for the pin to engage. Since you don't have many it should be a simple process.
If you decide to make a more complicated tool in the future it would be cool to include ball detents to engage the dimples. Not terribly necessary, but they would give a satisfying snap fit, and assuming it's made with grub screws on the outside to hold the spring and ball you could always tighten them down for even more grip if ever needed
if you need to machine parts on OD with holes, just clamp a pice of pipe and press it to the pipe with a live center. face up the pipe first.
For a moment I thought the cap part you made was going to fail a second time in the lathe
the welds look solid enough, to make a part like that pretty you have to use a rotator or be some kind of welding machine
Can you chuck the holder in the lathe by one handle at a time to clean up the welds?
Extra screws are for split dies. That set comes with fixed dies... manufacturer is clueless, likely, to the purpose of that die holder and just made a facsimile without the detail. That (and this is if you believe wives' tales online) or you have the option to cut your die along the groove, and make it into a split die. Never done it myself, don't see how that'd work out if the tolerances are as loose as they usually are with these things (cheap ones).
Hex dies are not for cutting threads, they're for chasing threads.
And back on the subject of split dies and the split die holder tool, the reason you want those thumb screws is because you want minute steps in the cut, more or less to have fix. In a split die situation, the main thumb screw is to split the die apart (with the other thumb screws backed out). Generally speaking, you use them to match the thread of an existing component by closing or opening the die over an existing screw. The two back thumbscrews are for keeping the die from moving as you do the adjustments. For a fixed die, you only need the main thumbscrew, so in that set, you can remove all those thumbscrews and replace the main one with a grubscrew and a hex key to match (for sleekness if you feel the screwdriver is hampering your style).
Just some stuff i heard over the years. I've used the split dies only for the explicit purpose of matching existing threads (so far), never for normal thread cutting. Too finicky for that.
This is a good promotional video for HAFCO and their range of obnoxiously noisy lathes
5/5!
would have been nice to turn the holder again after welding. Facing the faces and turn the rest between centers with the ball turning jig. it would have given the now flat sides a slight radius.
I know the chuck key was just in the tailstock; however, it still gave me a little anxiety. Great work as always. I am from India, and yours and Blondihacks' videos are the two always on my Sunday morning schedule.
Look and see if Kase n it is available to you good product for skinning parts blessings to you 😊😊
@ 10:45 You'll knock your eye out with that chuck key. 😂 😂
BOOGA!
Why didn't you chuck the handles up in the lathe after welding them, and cut a fillet where the body and handle meets.
Yeah, I would have cleaned the welds a little. Or just thread the connection point to the die holder and loctite it.
@@_Jester_ Yes the body looked thick enough to take threaded handles. As you say, slap on some loctite and they should be good to go.
I didn’t think people would react the way that they are to them. The welds really don’t bother me a whole lot and I was more focused on making sure the tool would actually work. By the time I thought about cleaning them up it was already case hardened
I'd be interested in buying a die holder though I'm not sure whether I have the budget to pay what your time is worth. Maybe $150 plus shipping would be my limit which I understand is not a lot for a custom tool.
Otherwise, digital plans also sound good.
I can't use the round ones, no room. I use the hex ones with a socket that is plugged so the die is visible. A T handle drives the socket.
Hi there. Why didn't you make it a press fit vs. welding it? Since it's not under critical loads most likely? Edit: my idea wouldn't work, it would pop out. Oops.
But, your tools, your design. Which, btw, I love to watch you create, so good!
Cheers 👍💪✌
15:50 I would knock off the edge for the smaller hole. It doesn't matter and it would be nicer.
Maybe I would make it bigger. It would not affect the function.
I got the same crappy kit a while ago and broke the the die holder
The solution was $10 at the swap meet for an old Australian made die holder
Where to buy one? Superb videos by the way!
I loved this but I don’t like the idea of leaving the chuck key in the tail stock chuck it worries me a little 😮
"Hex dies" are called Chasing or Rethreading Dies they are as their name implies for Chasing Threads _not_ Cutting them! And while technically you can cut threads with Chasing Dies that's not what they were designed to do, just like you can use Wrench as a Hammer but that's not what it's designed to do so its not going to work as well.
Also the "extra" screws on tap handles are for Adjusting the cutting depth of split dies not for securing it to the tap handle. 👍👍
I don’t see how they are any different to a carbon steel split die. I see them sold by a lot of manufacturers and they are not advertised as thread chasing. I’ve used them plenty and whilst not hss quality, they do the job.
For years I used hex dies in the old workshop, granted for stuff where the tolerance was less important on the threads. This is years before I bought the lathes and mills. I think context is an important factor there. Never caused us any issues there, even if the profile was imperfect.
I also said in the video, I don’t use split dies. I don’t need to, the threads can make with the normal button dies are well within spec for the stuff I do. Cheers
RE: Welding of round objects,
Maybe a new project, rotary welding clamp with variable speed 😄
👍👍👌👌
Question, does the weld also case harden? From what I understand it's a different kind of steel
All of the common steel filler rods will case harden. How well will depend on weather you introduce any impurities into the weld.
The filet is mild steel of some type so it’ll case harden. But the layer is so thin here that it probably doesn’t cause any issues to the weld itself
If be interested in making my own. I'll supper size it though! Not anywhere near as concerned about a die snapping as a tap... You should weld them though (your additions) ya only get better with practice. I mean this is artisan makes right? Worst case you can practice grinding the welds down before hardening!
At 21:42, you mention brazing vs welding. If you braze before case hardening, won't the brazing go away or become contaminated during heating + CO gas, while case hardening? If you do the brazing after case hardening, won't the heat from brazing damage the case hardening or the case hardening interfere with the adhesion of the braze? Chicken or egg with the brazing step? Why not just practice a little bit more, give yourself a couple of fillets to weld against and grind down the worst of the high spots? Maybe you could get away with just straight fusion welding without filler rod? Maybe make up some custom filler rod rings and then do a fusion type of process with a ring of filler material in the fillet gap?? Thanks for this video.
I think if I was going to braze it, I wouldn’t use mild steel as the die wrench. I’d want something that has a bit more toughness to begin with. Maybe 1045 steel
question: does it gives the same reasult using sodium BIcarbonate instead sodium carbonate for raising carbon content process? since bicarbonate is easier to find
It has been a while since I looked at the specific paper referring to it, but from memory I don’t think it would work or work as effectively. You need the carbon monoxide for it to work. And I don’t believe that is produced by sodium bicarbonate
Please do make your drawing(s) available for download! Thumbs up!
been here long time, miss lathe mods on lil red. But l would never buy another. Or the junk mill. But l get by for velomobiles. 3 major machine shops close by ive know since 87'.
Nice work. But I wonder, why weld or braze the handles in place? You could just cut some threads and screw them in, could you not?
With that design, once you have the pin hole, there wasn’t enough material once you add the threads. After the fact, I did some testing and by shrinking the pin and swapping the material for a higher tensile steel, yes you could thread it
Have a look how Inheritance Machining made his tap wrench. For next design you could start in the same manner making the whole thing one piece and then use milling machine to machine down the flats and recess that hods the button die. That way you would avoid any welding and make the part much stronger.
You mean like the one he made which he showed multiple times throughout the video 🤦♂
@@qantse he welded his handles on, the other design makes it al from a single piece of bar stock. 2 competely different methods.
Tap holder vs die holder@@Dalbayob69
If you are talking about the one I made last year, yes it is made from a solid piece of steel. No welding needed
Думаю, что loctite и резьбовое соединение, в данном случае, были бы лучше чем сварка.
Don't they make HSS inserts for carbide holders?
Allegedly they do but I’ve never seen them for sale anywhere
I want one
Now why didn't I think of this. 🤔
It was all going so well until you welded the handles in place. As others suggest, threading them would look neater. Die holders with multiple screws are there for a reason. For split dies, and better die gripping when cutting larger threads.
All aesthetics.
Like I said in the video I don’t use split dies and if I can get away with cutting M12 with one holding pin, I’m going to keep doing it that way
I vaguely remember Abom79 saying hex dies are for chasing threads and round dies are for cutting new threads. I'd never question that man when it comes to machining.
They are. If you look them up they're sold and advertised as Chasing or Rethreading Dies. You Dan technically cut threads with them but they'll never be as good as threads made with dedicated split button thread dies.
All solid dies are for chasing threads, hex or round.
If I didn't hear it from Adam (Abom79) I would've assumed hex dies would be more suited to cutting fresh threads given the shape of them being kind of impossible to slip in a die holder as opposed to round dies. But it actually makes sense split dies would be more suited to cutting new threads given the ability to fine tune. I only know what I learn here on UA-cam tho, as far as machining. I don't know any actual skilled/knowledgeable machinist types in real life.
If I had more than 3 change gears for my tiny old lathe, I'd learn how to single point
I am interested, How much are the materials for something like this?
$10 maybe. The rest is just time spent on the lathe
@@artisanmakes The one that came with the kit is terrible screws and handles loosen grip when tapping and using die.
drawings would be great!
Drawings Please! Thank-you - Mike.
I'm assuming you can't do a threaded connection on the handle because the hollow one with the pin would be too thin, but you could do that on the other side. Nicely done otherwise. A round file does wonders for making you a better welder
Yes, not with this particular set up, I tested it and the threads snapped. I did find after the fact that shrinking the pin diameter and swapping the material to medium tensile steel provided enough strength to thread it