The guy who mentioned Korea (the city of Daegu): i'm korean. Daegu lckdwn for 3 days. incomparable to NYC. Koreans msk out of courtesy not bc it works. and before 2020 we mostly have used msks for 1. dust season 2. plastic surgery. we didnt' mask widely until the spike in cases in Daegu (KDCA used that very low spike to panic pple). Even in March 9th 2020, one of the chief scientists in korea did a press conference saying travel restriction was useless. He admitted failure after the 1week Seoul lckdwn - cases already have reached its peak by the time lckdwn was implemented. in fact, KDCA didn't even bother checking koreans in garment industry who had visited Wuhan (a big textile city) in 2019 - there are pple who had ILI (influenza like illness) back in Q4 of 2019, which could indicate wider and earlier seroprevalence in korea already. If you actually lived in Korea, you would know that koreans complied w/ NPI far more in Q1 2022 than in Q1 2020. cases kept rising despite 99% npi compliance. you can literally chart compliance rate and see NPIs never slowed cases. think about it: Q1 2022 - koreans had 99% npi compliance and 98% vx rate. we had the largest mortality and excess mortality in korean's history since the Korean war.
Big fan of Tom and a bitter opponent of Covid policies. I’m really depressed for what happened to Mr. Orrell’s family, and also that we didn’t have a proper debate.
"We did the best we could"...does not hold even a little bit of water. Some of us were following data from Dec/19 and could see clear trends. China, Iran, cruise ships and Italy all clearly showed that the vast majority of the victims were OLDER than the average age of mortality. Young, healthy, victims were so rare, as to be a statistical anomaly. Every day, every bit of data (even the government massaged data) showed this trend again and again. If I could see this, so could they...which means that they KNEW that lockdowns, masks and vax's were not only a waste of time and effort, but counterproductive on a colossal (and criminal) scale. Add to that doctors literally lying to patients by the thousands...and you get a perfect storm of destruction of our faith in government, experts and the medical community.
Yeah man keep this energy. Many of us were following starting late 19 and early 20. This is why it caught me by surprise. I was like whoa...what....wait. But the momentum had taken off and I watched (from CA) in amazement. THEN I saw ppl being smeared for saying lets slow down think about what we are doing.
Yes! I said I fed 2020 that the data didn’t support the propaganda and having seen a few other countries lock down I said I had a feeling American politicians were itching for this opportunity. Every time there is a potential “pandemic” virus from the first SARS, mers, ebola, swine flu, and others the powers always seem to want to take more drastic action, but it never really gets popular enough. But feb 2020 I could feel it coming. This was their chance to pull out their balls and show us how big and powerful their dick is. And they did. But if you actually ignored what they said and just looked at the situation it was clear how over dramatic the entire narrative was and that the data absolutely didn’t support it, and how extremely absurd the lockdowns and other solutions were. This was a crime against humanity all over the globe and it was blatantly obvious from the start.
Condolences to the Orrell family. My heart breaks. The change of plans was handled very well here. That said, Woods destroyed all opposition and was a pleasure to watch.
"Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus to save a union that preserved liberty." Excuse me, what? Subjugating independent states into a union *preserves* liberty? Are you sure about that?
The lady from sweden is not considering many confounders. let's explore: #1. Sweden had [mortality displacement] from 2019. Sweden had very low mortality in 2019 against their expected avg, and thus dxs that should have seen in 2019 had 'harvesting effect' toward 2020 mortality. so the observed excess dxs in Sweden in early months can be explained by mortality displacement due to the low all-cause mortality in the previous year. sweden had the lowest excess in 2019 of all nordic countries. #2. Sweden has always had higher mortality than other nordic countries even before 2020. among the nordic countries, Sweden is the biggest country, has the most flight and transportation connections, most population density, most immigrants, most commerce. #3. If you analyze sweden's mortality by [native vs foreign] born, we see that the highest cv mortality in sweden is seen in [male immigrants, age 65 or older]. and Sweden has the largest immigrants of all nordic countries (in fact i believe is it the top in all europe). (also, i dislike comparing different regions, but if you compare excess asmr of sweden female vs new zealand female, sweden did better.) #4. sweden's [life expectancy estimate] is the highest among nordics. the lady ignores this, and also gets incorrect: sweden had the 2nd lowest excess. not last. so she still needs to explain why two other nordics didn't do better than sweden. #5. we should never forget to compare a nation to its own past years, in order to see justification of panic and excessive policies. Sweden's 2020 had 918 excess dxs per 100k. whereas Sweden's 2015: 923, 2014: 918, 2013: 947, 2012: 976, 2011: 963, 2010: 981 excess dxs per 100k. So Sweden's 2020 should never be seen as 'bloodbath'. Sweden did very well compared to it's owns past. ps. nicargua didnt lckdwn. tanzania, nepal, belarus - all didn't lckdwn and did very well. peru had the harshes lckdwn and did the worst.
By far the biggest mistake they did in Sweden in 2020 was that they locked up the elderly in the nursing homes and killed them with excessive medication. Patient couldn't breath, so they gave them morphine, until they died, and not oxygen. They didn't have oxygen in the nursing home, so they gave them morphine instead. All this while being hostage. No one could visit them. This was the official policy - CRAZY!
My numbers for excessive mortality for Sweden for 2020 compared to 2019 was slightly higher. November December was extremely low. If the year had lasted 1 more day, there would have be no excess deaths in 2020. My number for Norway was 400 fewer funerals in 2020 than in 2019 - there was no real epidemic in the streets. My numbers for funerals the US in 2020 were perfectly normal - no excess deaths, or clearly within normal expectations. The excess death rate didn't increase before they started jabbing people.
I hope no Libertarian genuinely believes lockdowns deserve defense. I understand in debates we sometimes take positions for the purpose of discussion. I hope this was the case here.
The funny thing is I think she proves his point completely and. There are so many things that are not being taken into account by these quote unquote experts that they literally have no idea what they're talking about. And yet we completely shut down the whole world when they have no idea what they're talking about. Time doesn't need to take in more data points he doesn't need to take in more aspects of the argument. He's got more than enough to show that what's going on doesn't match up with what the experts say.
Good old U-Toobe has once again felt the need to insert Canada's grossly untrue propaganda about the thing. Stalin and Hitler would have loved this platform.
To the question ''are the measures justified if it was proven beyond doubt that they worked?'' I would say no. Since if these measures make sense then the overwhelming majority of people would follow the guidelines voluntarily.
Think about it in another way. If you fear the virus, you would be happy if people voluntarily went out and conracted it, thus offering you free immunity. So no measures would benefit you personally. I always thought that kids should contract it first, in order to offer immunity to the rest😂😂
I agree with Mr. Woods - Many, millions, were jumping up and down yelling that this is all wrong and were shouted down and silenced/censored beyond belief. We purged our military/LE/medical staff of free thinkers and that is very alarming as now we have a group of yes men and woman in those positions - Yikes!
I have not seen a single doctor or scientist on the lockdown and mask side, even once over the past 4+ years, give an argument half as comprehensive, nuanced, or persuasive as Tom's work on this topic.
Operation warp speed at its finest, your body is the new battlefield, not your safety but everyone else’s, why did mask go away if it only saved one life?
Operation Warp Speed, aside from being government funded was a good thing (cutting red tape so that potentially life saving medicines could be developed in record time), it's just that the product of it shouldn't be mandated. If you want to try it you should be free to do so, if you don't want to take the risks of an experimental new medicine you should also be free to make that choice.
You and me both, brother. They actually sent me messages that they were "worried" about the things I said. Apparently they don't like libertarians or Christians ...no shock there!
It really sucks that the other guy couldn't be there to get spanked by Tom, but when it comes to family one must have their priorities in line. So sad about his granddaughter... I doubt he would have had much fun had he been present. Tom Woods, like most Libertarians are famous for never backing the wrong horse. I can't wait to watch Glen dismantle Doucheowitz! Glen isn't LP, but he sure as hell debates like one.
This was such a wasted opportunity. They should have cancelled the “debate” and rescheduled. The end result here is just another (very good) Woods lecture, but nothing that approaches a dialogue or a valuable exchange that definitively demonstrates one side is correct. And that’s what we needed.
Congratulations on Dr. Woods' book. What strikes me as surprising, in light of the facts, is that so few psychologists have criticized the lockdowns. I did not hear any statement from the APA (American Psychological Association) in this regard, but rather they have remained silent about everything that happened. It is so, but so evident, that the population has been attacked with psychological principles and techniques for torture, that it is difficult not to see it.
During Covid free money handouts, the stock markets hit all time highs while most production was locked down because that's where all the money was going for many, which doesn't cause other prices to go up, but the stock prices did go up.
This was great. It’s a shame (and testimony to ongoing hysteria) that there’s a Google/UA-cam Covid-19 label slapped onto this. Echoing prayers for the Orrell family, too. 😞
Ah well it would appear that Reason will not prohibit online viewing of this particular SOHO forum, at least nobody asked for paperwork at this point in the day.
Let's hear it for Gene faithfully presenting a side he presumably disagrees with.
The guy who mentioned Korea (the city of Daegu):
i'm korean. Daegu lckdwn for 3 days. incomparable to NYC. Koreans msk out of courtesy not bc it works. and before 2020 we mostly have used msks for 1. dust season 2. plastic surgery. we didnt' mask widely until the spike in cases in Daegu (KDCA used that very low spike to panic pple).
Even in March 9th 2020, one of the chief scientists in korea did a press conference saying travel restriction was useless. He admitted failure after the 1week Seoul lckdwn - cases already have reached its peak by the time lckdwn was implemented.
in fact, KDCA didn't even bother checking koreans in garment industry who had visited Wuhan (a big textile city) in 2019 - there are pple who had ILI (influenza like illness) back in Q4 of 2019, which could indicate wider and earlier seroprevalence in korea already.
If you actually lived in Korea, you would know that koreans complied w/ NPI far more in Q1 2022 than in Q1 2020. cases kept rising despite 99% npi compliance. you can literally chart compliance rate and see NPIs never slowed cases. think about it: Q1 2022 - koreans had 99% npi compliance and 98% vx rate. we had the largest mortality and excess mortality in korean's history since the Korean war.
Thanks for this excellent comment.
Koreans are hopelessly blue-pilled despite so many govt shenanigans
Big fan of Tom and a bitter opponent of Covid policies. I’m really depressed for what happened to Mr. Orrell’s family, and also that we didn’t have a proper debate.
Prayers for the Orrell family
I'm here for Tom!!!!!!!!!! 🗽🗽🗽
That makes many more of us! Tom 👏
"We did the best we could"...does not hold even a little bit of water. Some of us were following data from Dec/19 and could see clear trends. China, Iran, cruise ships and Italy all clearly showed that the vast majority of the victims were OLDER than the average age of mortality. Young, healthy, victims were so rare, as to be a statistical anomaly. Every day, every bit of data (even the government massaged data) showed this trend again and again.
If I could see this, so could they...which means that they KNEW that lockdowns, masks and vax's were not only a waste of time and effort, but counterproductive on a colossal (and criminal) scale.
Add to that doctors literally lying to patients by the thousands...and you get a perfect storm of destruction of our faith in government, experts and the medical community.
Well said
Yeah man keep this energy. Many of us were following starting late 19 and early 20. This is why it caught me by surprise. I was like whoa...what....wait. But the momentum had taken off and I watched (from CA) in amazement. THEN I saw ppl being smeared for saying lets slow down think about what we are doing.
Yes! I said I fed 2020 that the data didn’t support the propaganda and having seen a few other countries lock down I said I had a feeling American politicians were itching for this opportunity. Every time there is a potential “pandemic” virus from the first SARS, mers, ebola, swine flu, and others the powers always seem to want to take more drastic action, but it never really gets popular enough. But feb 2020 I could feel it coming. This was their chance to pull out their balls and show us how big and powerful their dick is. And they did. But if you actually ignored what they said and just looked at the situation it was clear how over dramatic the entire narrative was and that the data absolutely didn’t support it, and how extremely absurd the lockdowns and other solutions were. This was a crime against humanity all over the globe and it was blatantly obvious from the start.
Destroyed the corporate media and google. Great job Tom
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ TOM WOODS a treasure forever
The GOAT.
Condolences to the Orrell family. My heart breaks. The change of plans was handled very well here. That said, Woods destroyed all opposition and was a pleasure to watch.
It was a blessing to be on Tom's show. I'm glad I got to share my family and friends story. I wish I could've seen a good debate!!
Trust the Science?... More like Trust the Silenced.
"Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus to save a union that preserved liberty." Excuse me, what? Subjugating independent states into a union *preserves* liberty? Are you sure about that?
That assertion was a giant facepalm 🤦♂️
Yeah, it’s a horrible example that is very commonly believed.
“I’ve abandoned free-market principles to save the free-market system” vibes
Sincerest condolences to Brent and the Orrell family. Truly a tragedy. And love to his sweet granddaughter.
The lady from sweden is not considering many confounders. let's explore:
#1. Sweden had [mortality displacement] from 2019. Sweden had very low mortality in 2019 against their expected avg, and thus dxs that should have seen in 2019 had 'harvesting effect' toward 2020 mortality. so the observed excess dxs in Sweden in early months can be explained by mortality displacement due to the low all-cause mortality in the previous year. sweden had the lowest excess in 2019 of all nordic countries.
#2. Sweden has always had higher mortality than other nordic countries even before 2020. among the nordic countries, Sweden is the biggest country, has the most flight and transportation connections, most population density, most immigrants, most commerce.
#3. If you analyze sweden's mortality by [native vs foreign] born, we see that the highest cv mortality in sweden is seen in [male immigrants, age 65 or older]. and Sweden has the largest immigrants of all nordic countries (in fact i believe is it the top in all europe). (also, i dislike comparing different regions, but if you compare excess asmr of sweden female vs new zealand female, sweden did better.)
#4. sweden's [life expectancy estimate] is the highest among nordics. the lady ignores this, and also gets incorrect: sweden had the 2nd lowest excess. not last. so she still needs to explain why two other nordics didn't do better than sweden.
#5. we should never forget to compare a nation to its own past years, in order to see justification of panic and excessive policies. Sweden's 2020 had 918 excess dxs per 100k. whereas Sweden's 2015: 923, 2014: 918, 2013: 947, 2012: 976, 2011: 963, 2010: 981 excess dxs per 100k. So Sweden's 2020 should never be seen as 'bloodbath'. Sweden did very well compared to it's owns past.
ps. nicargua didnt lckdwn. tanzania, nepal, belarus - all didn't lckdwn and did very well. peru had the harshes lckdwn and did the worst.
By far the biggest mistake they did in Sweden in 2020 was that they locked up the elderly in the nursing homes and killed them with excessive medication. Patient couldn't breath, so they gave them morphine, until they died, and not oxygen. They didn't have oxygen in the nursing home, so they gave them morphine instead. All this while being hostage. No one could visit them. This was the official policy - CRAZY!
My numbers for excessive mortality for Sweden for 2020 compared to 2019 was slightly higher. November December was extremely low. If the year had lasted 1 more day, there would have be no excess deaths in 2020. My number for Norway was 400 fewer funerals in 2020 than in 2019 - there was no real epidemic in the streets. My numbers for funerals the US in 2020 were perfectly normal - no excess deaths, or clearly within normal expectations. The excess death rate didn't increase before they started jabbing people.
Imagine that, tyranny works to destroy liberty, but has no general benefit to the people.
I hope no Libertarian genuinely believes lockdowns deserve defense. I understand in debates we sometimes take positions for the purpose of discussion. I hope this was the case here.
Unfortunately, there are.
@@ChimpOnComputerThey're not Libertarian by definition, though they may self-identify.
The funny thing is I think she proves his point completely and. There are so many things that are not being taken into account by these quote unquote experts that they literally have no idea what they're talking about. And yet we completely shut down the whole world when they have no idea what they're talking about. Time doesn't need to take in more data points he doesn't need to take in more aspects of the argument. He's got more than enough to show that what's going on doesn't match up with what the experts say.
What crazy circumstances to have the debate
...I was wondering why no one had been talking about this
Just read ‘Diary of a Psychosis’. I thought it would be enraging, however I found it cathartic. Great book!
Prayers for you all 😢 Thank you so very much for sharing this with U.S.
God's Blessing For You Always 🙏
Good old U-Toobe has once again felt the need to insert Canada's grossly untrue propaganda about the thing. Stalin and Hitler would have loved this platform.
And they've inserted a link to the CDC covid guidance in the US.
3x5 index card of allowable opinion
Shredded
I forgo my normal comment to say thank you to both debators and a wish the absentee debator well and peace in this very difficult time
No Google, your misinformation regarding The Coof isn't accurate
Great job Tom.
To the question ''are the measures justified if it was proven beyond doubt that they worked?''
I would say no. Since if these measures make sense then the overwhelming majority of people would follow the guidelines voluntarily.
Think about it in another way. If you fear the virus, you would be happy if people voluntarily went out and conracted it, thus offering you free immunity. So no measures would benefit you personally. I always thought that kids should contract it first, in order to offer immunity to the rest😂😂
I agree with Mr. Woods - Many, millions, were jumping up and down yelling that this is all wrong and were shouted down and silenced/censored beyond belief. We purged our military/LE/medical staff of free thinkers and that is very alarming as now we have a group of yes men and woman in those positions - Yikes!
Tom Woods is the best. I wish he was my older brother.
If he was my older brother, my parents would say things like, "Why can't you be more like Tom?" 🤣
I have not seen a single doctor or scientist on the lockdown and mask side, even once over the past 4+ years, give an argument half as comprehensive, nuanced, or persuasive as Tom's work on this topic.
Operation warp speed at its finest, your body is the new battlefield, not your safety but everyone else’s, why did mask go away if it only saved one life?
Operation Warp Speed, aside from being government funded was a good thing (cutting red tape so that potentially life saving medicines could be developed in record time), it's just that the product of it shouldn't be mandated. If you want to try it you should be free to do so, if you don't want to take the risks of an experimental new medicine you should also be free to make that choice.
Reminder the U.S. Government soends $205,000 a SECOND.
New York had the worst outcomes due to COVID of jurisdictions of its size.
Not surprising, S hole cities producing S hole results.
UA-cam censors comments on every channel.
You and me both, brother. They actually sent me messages that they were "worried" about the things I said.
Apparently they don't like libertarians or Christians ...no shock there!
At least it's not Reddit
They don't give me a reason, and I still get notifications.
YT censors are 100% S&E!
There are forbidden words you are not allowed to use.😷
"In sweden social distancing is the norm"
I have work 4 years in Sweden I don't there is significant difference with other countries.
It really sucks that the other guy couldn't be there to get spanked by Tom, but when it comes to family one must have their priorities in line. So sad about his granddaughter...
I doubt he would have had much fun had he been present. Tom Woods, like most Libertarians are famous for never backing the wrong horse.
I can't wait to watch Glen dismantle Doucheowitz! Glen isn't LP, but he sure as hell debates like one.
Antony Fauci: "Maybe they were doing things outdors." -> That's hilarious.
This was such a wasted opportunity. They should have cancelled the “debate” and rescheduled. The end result here is just another (very good) Woods lecture, but nothing that approaches a dialogue or a valuable exchange that definitively demonstrates one side is correct. And that’s what we needed.
It's better to postpone this forum and have an actual debate with another real expert.
"Its time to set fire to the index card of allowable opinion".
Me and my group were sitting behind the guy with the parrot. What a great parrot!
WOODS WOODS WOODS
2:46 should have been trimmed from this.
Yeah what was that woman prattle?
2:44 Starts here
Congratulations on Dr. Woods' book. What strikes me as surprising, in light of the facts, is that so few psychologists have criticized the lockdowns. I did not hear any statement from the APA (American Psychological Association) in this regard, but rather they have remained silent about everything that happened.
It is so, but so evident, that the population has been attacked with psychological principles and techniques for torture, that it is difficult not to see it.
the guy with the bird on his shoulder...NYC people.
Ian Anderson is a member of MENSA, for what it’s worth.
During Covid free money handouts, the stock markets hit all time highs while most production was locked down because that's where all the money was going for many, which doesn't cause other prices to go up, but the stock prices did go up.
This was great. It’s a shame (and testimony to ongoing hysteria) that there’s a Google/UA-cam Covid-19 label slapped onto this. Echoing prayers for the Orrell family, too. 😞
Ah well it would appear that Reason will not prohibit online viewing of this particular SOHO forum, at least nobody asked for paperwork at this point in the day.
55:50
Gene has a perfect 10/10 old man shuffle
Shout out bird guy
just the tip of the iceberg...
1:24:55 "would we look back on 2020 as just a bad flu season.."
If cov had been the one to have happened in 1918 no one would have noticed