So, the children who didn't want to fill out a form because they cannot perceive of using that half an hour due to the fact that even adolescents have a limited ability to project into the future (and this blindness to time is an important feature of ADHD, by the way)... these same children are capable of projecting into the future to see the real, material consequences of things like medically unnecessary double mastectomies as major surgery? Risk of general anaesthetic, adhesions, bleeding...
Steensma points out about detransition, that it’s “a developmental process, to find our you’re on the wrong pathway.” Wouldn’t this point alone be sufficient to end transitioning children? They have significant developmental process yet to go through, they don’t - can’t - know how they will feel even a year down the road much less an entire lifetime. These two people seem quite well-intentioned, even kindly, but their very good intentions put them inside a bubble. And through acting within that bubble, they become monsters.
End transitioning young adults too and anybody who is mentally not sound or stable... there more than enough other social justice movements to for young people to hang their hats on that of far more importance that will make this gender ideology of no significance in anybody's life (like Sadguru says in this interview on Daily show three days ago ua-cam.com/video/akrtCsRkV60/v-deo.html)
GNTRHs (puberty blockers) do not only suppress the growth of primary and secondary sex characteristics, but also have arresting effects on development of the brain and its functional maturity. Specifically, areas responsible for making choices and sound judgement.
@@Gingerblaze Yes. This should be obvious to anyone with even a minimal knowledge of brain development. Yet doctors, who ought to know better, seem not to know or care that they are creating permanent cognitive impairment.
These clinicians (DeVries and Steensman)are truly frightening. At 48:47 in, the provider states that as a psychologist it is not his position to decide whether or not a patient has gender, incongruousness or not. Then how do you justify the treatment arrived at? The surgeons must rely on the psychologist to confirm the need for surgery in these cases, I think. There are no other diagnostic tools.
I'm so glad that I was born 40 years ago and so didn't fall prey to this terrible ideology. Edit: I have ADHD and autism, and am a same-sex attracted woman.
These people are disgusting. They are responsible for so much suffering and harm being done to children around the world. Oh no, a girl is distressed by her puberty. That's... Normal. Tell me a girl who ISN'T distressed by puberty?!
To be fair they did a study. They didn’t tell the world to follow suit and apply some of their methods willy nilly to a child that’s distressed about gender.
What an example of how difficult it is for scientists/doctors to admit to failure. Did the term gender nonconforming or the term "likely homosexual" also not exist?
They will never admit failure. I think many MDs are not capable of that. Dutch society isn't a litigious one, but they probably will never admit wrongdoing just in case someone may want to sue.
BIG props to Stella for calling out the glaring confound inherent in switching from the girl dysphoria scale to the boy one after transition. This is why clinical "research" is very often 100% meaningless unless a there's either a psychometrician or someone as shrewd as Stella on both the research design team *and* one among the peer reviewers.
Absolutely, couldn't believe that! You'd think that the researchers themselves should be that shrewd. It's not exactly complicated to see that that didn't make sense.
I'm not sure I get your - or Stella's point - here: 'gender dysphoria' is defined as "the distress a person experiences due to a mismatch between their gender identity-their personal sense of their own gender-and their sex assigned at birth": if, by transitioning, someone's appearance is more in line with the characteristic of the opposite sex, it seems to me quite obvious that their gender dysphoria is very likely to have improved
@@ivanlondon The problem is a crucial flaw with the psychometric measure itself. After transition, the questions are shifted as if they are addressing the person as their desired sex instead of measuring their baseline complaint/source of distress - the inescapable truth that they are a member of their sex and their distress about that. That 'gender' switch to the questions during or post-transition in itself shows an ideologically-driven skew away from objectivity, an affirmation, by assuming that they have somehow transformed into the opposite sex in a meaningful way. It has ceased to be an objective measuring instrument by becoming a therapeutic tool, and can therefore yield no objectively relevant results. It's quite jarring that the experimenters just gloss over this fact, speaking as a psych student who has designed a psychometric measure and performed statistical analyses on similarly subjective data about 'feelings'. In other words, a dysphoric girl filling in a self-report questionnaire addressing her as if she's a boy now, and how she feels about that idea, by itself is going to predictably act as a) a placebo treatment, that b) may induced euphoria, and so c) can not meaningfully measure anything about the root cause of the distress as it colludes with the delusion that they have indeed changed sex. This is especially relevant when talking about young people as we know they are so so suggestible. Helping young people deny the truth of the body they're in may lift their mood temporarily, but it will wear thin over time as the body continues to assert its sexed reality. There is no way such a measure as described here can begin to predict long-term satisfaction or wellness by having a starting point that denies that they are indeed still female, no matter what physical changes they have observed.
When I hear that phrase, “assigned at birth,” I know the interview will be spiraling off into something not based in reality. Far too much credit and confidence is bestowed on the medical and psychological community. I’m skeptical.
That phrase also drives me nuts! Sex is not assigned at birth! It is something that is determined at conception and observed on ultrasound or at birth by what is evident and present!
And there are many already known. People who aren't happy or detrans are rejected by the ideology.. Interesting the researchers admit actively look at the motivation of de-transitioner.. but simply affirm the transitioners??
I'm really glad you had the courage to do this interview, especially in a situation where there are those keen to misrepresent what you are doing but what planet are these people on? Well, yes, when the outcome isn't good we can't know if they would have had a better life had they not transition but that doesn't change that the fact they have no evidence that this improves people's lives at all. Thanks for a valuable insight into these people.
I can’t help wondering how history will view these two. There is suddenly a big shift at about the one hour mark in their attitude towards their patients/clients, but that could be happenstance and not just being under pressure from Stella and Sasha. There seems to be clutching at straws to justify their position at times, but that could be because activists have extrapolated the meaning of affirmative treatment to mean “no discussion whatsoever” and their claims of having more nuanced views have been disregarded in some clinics. As a girl who was good at maths at university in the 70’s (rare for my location) and as I now understand, was (is) psychologically androgynous so did not fit in at all in my local culture other than to try to wing it by appearing to be fun at parties, I really am glad that this whole nightmare of transitioning was simply unavailable. Teenage girls need depth, understanding and emotional attunement. It really does seem frightening, the apparent gender transitioning railroading that some people are campaigning for.
Their answer for detrans is that one day u might feel this way, another day I might feel that way, anything goes, u might feel trans, then u might not, u might feel gay, u might not bc it’s all always changing. How can they defend that view while also defending making irrevocable changes to the body that will last forever
Incredible, spine chilling interview. I see countless parallels in what is touted here and the trans groom-y tiktok content. Y'all were so courteous and almost gentle in your approach to critical analysis of what these folks were saying, yet still conveying the strong investigative, logical, humane side that we've grown to know in y'all, Sasha and Stella.
My perhaps basic reaction to this discussion is wondering again why we are medicalizing a psychological and sociological condition. I still wonder what gender dysphoria really means and what the treatment really fixes, if anything. The healthiest approach still seems to be about accepting one's body and trying to change society to be more accepting of gender non-conformity. Why are doctors not promoting the healthiest approach? Instead, too many are promoting medicalization and false concepts such as "assigned" sex at birth. I feel we can get lost in the weeds of how medicalization is justified. I tend to be anti-medicalization in general and anti-plastic surgery, etc. But being against medicalization shouldn't be portrayed as being against the liberation of people's gender.
@Eklektika Perhaps, but why isn't changing clothes, haircuts, and taking on different roles enough nowadays? Before medicalization that is what people did. And we cannot change our bodies to really be another sex, so how does the gender dysphoria get fully relieved? I don't have the condition so I don't really understand that part. Also, I don't see someone as really not suffering if they are a lifelong medical patient. I know it is said that some people need this treatment because nothing else works, but I can't help but wonder if that is really true. Even some well-adjusted trans individuals like those from Gender Dysphoria Alliance seem to question it a bit. As I said, I tend to be wary of medicalization of other psychological conditions, for example, depression and anxiety, so I continue that skepticism with gender dysphoria.
What a fabulous opportunity to interview these scientists to understand the context + their perspective. Stella at times I found it frustrating that you interrupted speakers + you appeared unprepared with regards some of the research methodology. But I really admired your ability to side step certain galling comments about the ineffectiveness of psychotherapy on helping with gender dysphoria. Thank you both for this resource!!
Wow! Thanks Sasha and Stella! And thanks to Steesma and De Vries. I think I have to listen to this episode a few more times to fully get an understanding of what was said though. It must be very difficult to unravel this issue especially given the timeline spanning almost 60 years pre and post medical and surgical interventions. Listening to Doctors Susan, Az, Ray, Stephen, Ken and Michael I get the impression that at some point in time the collective conventional wisdom was sidelined at almost the same time as the population presenting got younger and more numerous. This happened at the same time as the growth of social media for kids and young adults. So all of a sudden these lonely nerdy kids find each other online and automatically appeared more knowledgeable than their parents, teachers and even most medical professionals just because they have the vocabulary. Not to get angry or offensive but don't you have to know something about the development of a child's brain to work in this field? Don't you have to know something about child physical development into adulthood before you administer" puberty blockers "?. As euphemistic as it sounds they do what they say, they block growth. And in some cases that treatment is necessary but not on an industrial scale. We find ourselves now , trying to put the genie back into the bottle. Now would be a good time to call a truce. Stop the all the drama and help each other! Can we as older and wiser people given all the stuff we know now do this for each other?
18:36 that comparison to diabetes Diabetes or interventions for other health issues is not comparable to altering your body to appear as the opposite sex to address a psychological issue and as a result struggling to find a partner (because to be frank, most of the population are either straight or homosexual, you're making it incredibly hard on yourself to find a partner who is attracted to your presentation AND your gen* tals, that's just the fact of it, gay men don't want to be with females, lesbians don't want to be with males) and/or still feeling disgust with your gen* tals. The very intervention is exacerbating the problem the patient has, unless they're asexual! Diabetes treatment isn't going to resolve any underlying mental health issues - it's not intended to, it's not sold as performing that function for the patient. Imagine giving an anorexic a gastric bypass with the promise they will feel full and no longer have hunger due to starving themselves AND their self-image will improve. 20 years on, guess what, the anorexic is still crippled with the body dysmorphia & eating disorder, only now with the medical intervention they've changed their body to the point where nothing near a "normal" relationship with eating is possible.
I felt that if you talked about diabetes treatment and heart disease together it would have made a hell if a lot of sense just as gender relationships and sexuality are related. Gender and diabetes no but obviously gender and relationships and sexuality are intricately related so I understood Stella’s point perfectly.
As a diabetic, if you gave me a treatment that involved amputating my arms because of some novel theory of how diabetes works, and two years later my diabetes had resolved but I had huge regrets and a reduced quality of life and desperately wished I had my arms back, that would absolutely be relevant to assessing whether it was an appropriate and effective treatment. Oh and of course if the surgical procedure killed me, that would also be quite relevant.
I really wonder how this will all shake out, if it will turn out medicalisation was the disaster as it looks to be at the moment to me. They certainly sound confident. I don’t doubt they get to see how happy and “reborn” their patients are, reading between the lines, for them this is all no different to sexual orientation, and like medicalising is no different to accepting someone’s sexuality, and our inner feeling of being a man or a woman is in constant flux for some people the way sexuality is. Sounds really like a wild idea to me, but there you go. If they think of it that way, then that’s got to be an enormous incentive to them. They really believe they are doing the best thing for their patients. Credit to them for being willing to do the interview - it’s felt like very few people in these positions give interviews like this. Though at the end they say they are often doing media interviews, one gets the impression they are not used to defending their ideas around certain things (likely because media has all been coming from the perspective of “This is about understanding LGBT”, and less “Is it right to medicalise kids? What about detransitioners?” etc)
I question this too. It's apparent to me (after meeting some transitioners in my life) that a lot of these persons aren't the "real deal" trans so to speak. Obviously what my friends believe about themselves isn't true, instead they have formulated false beliefs about themselves that are wrapped up in ideology and a need for self esteem. But will these beliefs hold out? Every day load of people believe in things that are bizarre. If you're an athiest I'm sure you would agree that a lot of religious people believe in some wacky things. And these people hold these beliefs as sacred for the rest of their lives! Who knows, these kids might just go on believing forever. I also recall what Az Hakeem said in a previous episode - that the more ASD they are the less likely they are to regret transition. They don't have the self awareness, emotional regulation, or theory of mind to figure out that this isn't what is really going on. Ignorance can truly be bliss.
@@sarahrobinson5121 I think unfortunately where we're heading is probably going to be less and less emphasis on being "trans" and more and more emphasis on wanting to appear androgynous via surgeries & hormones. From listening to these doctors, it seems they're more than happy to move in the direction of "anyone with any negative feeling of any kind around their gender presentation can go for this cosmetic surgery with hormones" I think we're already seeing that with these "non-binary" surgeries girls are having which basically amount to mastectomies and taking T (apparently breasts ARE womanly so not androgynous, but flat chested male-presenting IS androgynous?? It's a bit mind-bending how they square that circle - like, why are male features the "neutral default"?) It all just looks a bit like girls & women trying to "unmake" their own female bodies, and escape into another category. I guess if that's where we're heading, that's where we're heading - maybe if it really becomes a cosmetic movement, they'll leave the kids alone and it will just be young adults wrecking their bodies * sigh * "religious people believe in some wacky things. And these people hold these beliefs as sacred for the rest of their lives! Who knows, these kids might just go on believing forever." - exactly. And if they pivoted to promoting it like that, rather than as "born this way" like sexual orientation, I could accept it. They can believe whatever they want, but the society doesn't then have to enshrine the religious tenants of gender-ology into our laws! That's what's been so terrifying about all this. A religion coming in under the guise of a civil rights movement. RE: ASD and regret - yes, I absolutely wouldn't find this surprising. I wish studies were being done on all this stuff. But tying this to the earlier point, funnily enough it seems people on the autistic spectrum are LESS likely to be religious because religions involve a theory of mind about God. Maybe we're seeing an anti-theory of mind religion here. A religion for people who struggle with understanding how others perceive them.
Nothing will change. We have Republican Governors and AG’s pointing at parents while gender clinics run away with all the money(and donate some to them, of course). This is 💯 on parents, as far as taking necessary steps to protect their kids from falling prey to whatever happens to them that leads to a desperate need to escape their bodies in the first place. I know how most parents operate, and I’m confident in saying hell is more likely to freeze over than that is to happen.
@@L_Martin I agree that this looks like where it's headed - some kind of extreme body modification culture, pick and choose the parts you want. Totally devoid of reality. I think though this is where it might come undone. People in the middle will look at this and realise that it's untethered from reality. I doubt some Happy Clappy documentary will sell normal people on the idea of neutrois people getting their nipples or genitals removed because they believe that they're neither a man or a woman. Especially when you get up close to these people and realise there isn't any foundation for this belief. It's farcical. But we've managed to get this far with non-binary, so I could be wrong. "A religion for people who struggle with understanding how others perceive them." As an atheist I've wondered for a while whether this is where we'd go as a society. Religion without a god. Personally, my litmus test for religions is whether or not they work for someone. I don't care if you believe some wacky ideas if it's working for you. So does this one work? From watching videos of detransitioners I will make a few observations. They might bottom out on the ideology when their lack of functioning catches up with them and the ideology can't prop them up anymore. Some develop social and self awareness and realise that this isn't what was going on. And some just seem to get bored of it and realise they want more in life. There might be a sweet spot in the middle, where they're functional enough to not hit "rock bottom" but not socially aware enough to figure it out. Maybe they're also helped along by a bit of cognitive dissonance and having a "queer" or "counter culture" type community around them. Most religions (that aren't abusive) will try to improve people's functioning and then keep them busy with stable work, family, and community- the big ticket items that hit our psychological needs long term. There are only so many transition steps you can take before you're done. I wonder what will happen when these kids reach their 30s or 40s and their friends in the sub-culture are moving to the suburbs and settling down. Sub-culture by definition will move on. We will write all the essays we can on post-modernism and go to all the conferences and then some bright spark will come up with the next big idea in philosophy and we'll all be applying for grants to write about this latest and greatest idea. Gender ideology will become stayed, maybe it will become mainstream, either way it won't be subversive anymore. Will it last out? Will they jump onto the next thing (when they're 50)? I don't know. These kids give a lot to their belief system. I'd rather pay a 10% tithe and waste my Sundays than get my genitals and nipples removed.
I thought this was a great interview. It’s clear that the researchers have a specific perspective and are focused on the individual/specific outcomes in their work. I remain of the opinion that medical tx for minors should not occur but hearing them speak did help me understand a bit more of where like minded clinicians are coming from. I’ve been nurse and health care administrator for nearly 2 decades and it does remind me that there are well established standards of care in with other more innocuous physical conditions that are still the standard but new research is showing may have not been the best approach for long term health, well being and quality of life. The medical model is very pathology centric. There’s a dx and a narrow tx (ie a pill or a surgery) because that’s what is the easiest to study and implement in our complex healthcare system. It’s often the case that a more nuanced and holistic remedy it’s what’s best as is most certainly the case here. Thank you for your diligent exploration of the subject!
This interview is like discovering the source of the Nile. I found the diabetes analogy a false equivalence. Gender affirming care is like treating cancer with insulin.
If they’re basing puberty blocking on the stories of adult transitioners reflecting back on their own childhood, how do they know the adults are being honest in reflections?
And even if they are being as honest as they possibly could, what of the ways we revise our own personal history due to our own biases, personality? Are these researchers even taking in to account that having gender dysphoria or any body dysmorphic condition means having a mind that obsesses on their preoccupation, that is desperate to dissociate from the ideas that trigger anxiety, and that may have a vested interest in repeating a narrative that anything was better than being the person, or a person in the state that they hated?
Also the adults saying their puberty was distressing were the people who didn’t have their issues resolve on their own. The selection bias is off the charts. The voices of the overwhelming majority of people who’s dysphoria resolved on its own or lessened to an extent are not being heard. The exception is being presented as the rule. If we are to take personal anecdotes as evidence on persistence of gender dysphoria, the anecdotes of those who grew out of it need to be presented in parallel.
I still don't get the rationale for switching the male/female dysphoria scale. How can this give sensible results? Surely, it's quite obvious that the results produced by just switching the scales would always show “improvement” even without any treatment whatsoever. After all, the fact that female dysphoria wouldn't register on a male dysphoria scale must have been the reason for having two scales in the first place. Surely the researchers must have been aware of this. So did the study look at how the results changed after switching the scales after transition COMPARED TO how the results change by just switching the scales without any treatment?
This is the key, because switching the scale is precisely a way of fixing the result of the experiment! I can't believe they didnt press him more on this issue.
@@SkepticalTeacher I think they had to keep the conversation open and still evolving. I could definitely hear Stella champing at the bitt to dig in with this, but I think it was right for them to hold back and let them speak. Sometimes- the hole can just keep on digging itself!
The design of the scales means that swapping the scales automatically improves the score. The scales include items that are about obsession with becoming the target sex ( initially ). When the scale is swapped , for example a trans identified girl can only receive the same score if she is suddenly fixated on wanting to be seen and and have the presentation of a female. That isn't going to be the outcome of even the most catastrophic regret case . The " dysphoria " score will lower in all cases except suddenly feeling obsessed about presenting as the sex they previously struggled with. At the time the study was first published I wrote a letter to a few key people about how a jellybean would produce the same " improvement " if the scale swap was similarly applied. And that being the case, how can a sterilizing intervention then be provided in preference to the jellybean ? And it's worse than just that.. The scale corruption is intentional , and I say this for very specific reasons .. There was another paper ( now buried ) about removing " intersex dysphoria " from the gender dysphoria scale. Which was done under the pretext of protecting intersex people against failure ( nonsense as the scale shouldn't be used on them , even theoretically) . What this removal of relevant items did was removed items regarding distress about ambiguous appearance, and distress about being outside easy social integration into male or female category. It's similar to how the famous Swedish trans study ( the whole cohort one) inappropriately controlled for intermediate factors that might themselves be negative outcomes of gender interventions.
@@georginawhitby1320 It's not just the swapping, either-there's not even a way to know whether the scales are directly comparable! I don't actually know how the numbers work for these specific assessments, but suppose a patient scored a 1.2 on the male scale and a 3.6 on the female scale, does that mean the patient is three times more distressed as a female than as a male? Only if they're perfectly calibrated such that 1.0 units of distress is the same on both scales, AND if the zero point is exactly the same. But that's impossible to know. Consider also if they had simply administered BOTH scales before and after to see what happened. Who's to say that a patient couldn't have gotten WORSE on both scales simultaneously but with a better baseline in their "target" category? The swap hides that effect completely. They compared apples to oranges here, any way you slice it. The results are inconclusive at best.
They talked about having up to a third not continue through for medical transition or people deciding if transition or other options would be best - just so curious what those other options would be - were other services provided for the third of people who didn’t continue on? Is there room to establish treatment options for gender dysphoria that aren’t medical that could be offered and not seen as “conversion therapy”?
Just writing my thoughts as I listen 55:40 really suggesting the tolerance in the UK for e.g. is so much less? 1:01:53 she says ROGD is not a real phenomenon. So, good to know their thinking. 1:06:33 so there are some things that need further study before you can be sure - namely ROGD. But not puberty blockers? Risks of puberty blockers we can be unsure about, but we can just sound confident and hope for the best? 1:12:45 “birth assigned females” - I just don’t get this language. A female is female from birth to death. Why do they keep using male and female as assigned? Are these terms now just as meaningless as man and woman to them? 1:00:27 so adolescence today involves questions like: -Who am I? -Where do I belong? -What is my sexuality? -Does my GENDER IDENTITY match my body?? Framing this like it’s a normal question every kid should be asking themselves is just bizarre to me. No other questioning of your sense of self as a teen involves medicalisation. Pretty incredible interview. They say at the end it was tough in places… ugh I feel a lot of dread about all this, but they do think these kids are being best served with medicalisation.
They sound surprisingly naive at points. The assumption that no one would go through this if it wasn't what was best for them is essentially denying desisters and detrans existence. Especially odd as they say the mechanism for gender dysphoria is unclear and seem at least partially aware of the effect of social media. It's also interesting that their focus seems to be on gender incongruence, largely do the patients feel they look a bit more like their identified gender in a simplistic manner, while in America this seems to be sold to parents as suicide prevention. I can't help but feel that if we are talking about essentially appearance then this is closer to cosmetic surgery than care. In no other circumstances would we accept infertility and inability to have an adult sex life in order to "improve" appearance.
I think Social Media is just a symptom. The TRAs have manipulated legislation to promote this epistemology. The legal framework has required universities, teacher training colleges, hospitals, government instruments like schools to swallow and affirm this world outlook. It's a fad because kids are being taught by adults that this is the nature of reality. People are being spoon fed it and don't have the resources to resist it - so all embracing has the state's influence become.
"Gender Incongruence" is the current ( politically loaded ) European standard term for "gender dysphoria" ( formerly gender identity disorder ). It was developed as a term to reconceptualize the target condition as automatically defining the solution as re-alligning the body to be " congruent " with the identity.
@@georginawhitby1320 I find the shift in terminology really blurs the aims. It seems to me that we were initially attempting to help people with mental health issues but now, under pressure from trans activist groups, we seem to have shifted to a confusing concept where there isn't actually a medical issue to solve and the problem arises simply by identifying as trans. And is solved by transitioning. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it seems almost purposefully confusing. I mean surely there's an argument that non-trans ppl have a degree of gender incongruence so does that mean they could/should start taking hormones or get surgeries if they are "masculine" women or "effeminate" men? I just can't follow the logic. I thought the original argument used to be that these people have a mental illness/distress which is alleviated by certain treatments. It sounds suspiciously like the aim in the research nowadays is just to make people "pass". While at the same time outside of the research parents are being told it's about mental health or giving kids time. It's completely incoherent to me.
They are assuming all these kids can truly give informed consent, and that a child/teenager knows what's best for them. We all know both those things are false. Firstly, scientists hardly scratched the surface of figuring out how puberty blockers affect physically-healthy children, psychologists mostly aren't going to know all that medical scientists know, and kids don't even have the ability to really grasp this info anyways (assuming they would be given this info). Secondly, we all acknowledge that kids and young teens DON'T know what's best for them which is why you need to be 16, 18, or even 20/21 for big decisions in life (despite some of them arguably having lesser consequences than puberty blockers on a healthy body): can't get certain piercings until 16-18, can't get a tattoo under 18, can't drink alcohol under 18 or even 21, can't marry until 18, can't defend your country until 18, can't work as a SWer (where legal) until at least 18, can't drive until 16-18, can't start a business or get a loan until 18, etc. Surely it's easier to dissolve a marriage you rushed into at age 18 or to leave the military if you realise you made a mistake when you signed up, than it is to undo damage to your brain or bones or fertility from puberty blockers or wrong-sex hormones? No sane tattoo artist is going to tattoo the face of an 18 year old, so that back piece or sleeve you got at 18 or 19 can still easily be covered up for a job. If needed, you can get laser removal on any bits that are too close to your hand or neck to be hidden. Can't get a tattoo when you're 11 but you can choose infertility, risk of cognitive issues, risk of bone decline, menopause symptoms, and depression. This world makes 0 sense. These researchers even say some of their patients don't have massive distress, so why trans them, then?
@@billmartins5545 I'm really struggling with what their motivations are. I apparently watched this 7 months ago. Since then I can't get rid of this sensation that they knew they effectively falsified the results by switching the male and female surveys. This has been compounded by another research paper I've seen by De Vries which supposedly shows that post-affirmative care these patients have better sex lives. They do this by taking 20 yr olds ask them to document how many sexual/kissing activities they've had and then thinking back to 18 and saying how many they had. They then compare the numbers and show that sexual activity has gone up. Which you could get from literally any group of 20 yr olds thinking back to had they had less total sex 2 yrs ago. BTW these patients giving oral sex or having anal sex is seen as somehow proof they're happy with their bodies. Then they ask only those who had sex, which is a number way lower than the average, how happy they're with their sex lives but none of the 70% who haven't had sex yet to show how happy they all are with their sex lives. I just don't see how they can't know this is not scientific at all. Do they just have overconfidence in the ability to spot "true trans" (which obviously doesn't exist)? Have they just swallowed a lot of claims about suicidality or that aesthetics will solve mental health and not analyzed them? It's like they're willing to cross all kinds of ethical and scientific lines in order to get kids into affirmative care. I just don't understand why.
Your own Helena appeared in an excellent panel at channel named The Center For Bioethics and Culture Network channel. Colin Wright, Dr. Michael Laidlaw, endocrinologist. Why only 2 studies? Why N = such small numbers. Watch the above channel, The Center For Bioethics and Culture Network, where you can also find the film Trans Mission. REAL SCIENCE.
So, he is responsible for this hugely damaging trend among vulnerable young people, most of who are same-sex attracted, and perhaps also a majority of whom have autism. How progressive! 🤔
He's an ideologue. The nonsense he's spewing is bone chilling. Basically he's happy for these children to self diagnose, completely disregards childhood developmental stages and goes ahead with medical impairment to health and mutilation.
@@SkepticalTeacher Nothing surprises me these days regarding this topic. Mostly, because people espousing it are gender cultists. Their "science" is as much science as scientology is. And the fact they are considered "experts" is just shocking.
Autism is over diagnosed. So is ADHD. Most, or dare I say all, children who experience what is labeled gender dysphoria(aside from pre gay males) have experienced trauma; major trauma. A woman who gets a diagnosis of ASD and ADHD(rather than being diagnosed as a child) most likely is exhibiting traits of narcissism(which many psychologists attribute to ASD), and borderline personality, or complex post traumatic stress, disorder(which many psychologists attribute to ADHD). Narcissism and BPD/C-PTSD result from neglect and seggsual abuse during childhood. ASD and ADHD are actual brain disorders that don’t just pop up, or get worse with age. They’re both quite rare in females anyway. There’s no missing signs of ASD in young children(aside from maybe very high functioning, or previously known as aspergers, in girls, maybe), and there’s certainly no missing signs of ADHD in children. People are born with them. It may be possible for a physical head injury early in childhood, or even later, to mimic symptoms of ADHD, but that’s not the typical course of diagnosis in genuine ADHD.
This interview is so important. I really do think history will remember you both in the end. Also, I hate how this bizarre community uses language. “Affirmative care” “gender assigned at birth” “colon vagina”??? As a woman, I find it so offensive and demeaning to suggest that a body part unique to women, can be applied to a man’s surgically altered colon?? Call it something else, leave our language alone, because that’s not a vagina. Thank you.
Why do I sense these very thoughtful people couldn't even tell us what 'gender' or 'queer' is? Whilst this is literally being propelled by critical theory, an ideology explicitly adverse to objective truth, the notion of having considered 'clinical' practice is absurd.
I can't with these Dutch researchers and their "Yes, there was that thing [that totally invalidates our results and conclusions] but it was the best we could do. It was a clinical a study!" GTFO with that absolute horse crap! These people are well-intentioned but they're ignorant, deluded, incompetent and irresponsible. Yeah, I said it. Always love you Sasha & Stella though!!!
@@ericainches3423 Totally. I actually had to take a few calm-down breaks each time I caught myself stewing instead of listening. I actually listened to this ep over the course of a day.
I wonder if these researchers are aware of the many social media mechanisms that teenagers use to give one another advice about how to access treatment….namely all the content that is out there that encourages them to lie about their experiences (you’re still valid, they’re just transphobic and won’t give you access to hormones unless you tell them you’ve always felt this way), gives them scripts to essentially perform for clinicians with the goal of transition at any cost. I understand their need to believe their young patients, but at the end of the day it does not sound like they are doing their due diligence to investigate the culture that has sprung up around trans issues and the ways in which young people influence one another. It’s unfortunate. Can someone show them Tumblr and Reddit? 😂
The increase of girls presenting with dysphoria must have some social/bullying aspect. The problem is with society, not the child. Also, gender incongruousness is not, in my own experience, permanent. Again I believe the problem is with society-gender/sex is not "assigned" at birth-gender ROLES are assigned. And these are not one size fits all.
I'm just not enjoying being female. I will never know what life is like as a male, but I think the physical experience is better: no menstruation, risk of unwanted pregnancy and having to deal with birth control. We're also physically weaker, more injury prone making many physical jobs just not possible or not for long (until you inevitably get an injury, just look at how few women have a career in physically demanding jobs and stick around past age 40/for more than five years). I could take testosterone but that harms my health although it would help physical abilities. I was never appealed by pregnancy, I could perhaps imagine being a dad, but not a mum, so I don't have kids. But I'll never be male. But I've accepted that. There's probably advantages to being female, I think social life is easier for us, and I think child rearing comes more natural to many women vs men. Not sure that's worth the physical burden of being female... But in any way, we don't get to choose, so it's best to make the best out of what you are.
55:25 uncritical inclusion of 't' alongside 'lgb' exposes the lack of discernment in the nature of these two groups. One is attracted to the same sex, the other is nothing whatsover to do with sexual orientation and actually denies the relevance of physical sex.
You can stop menstruation using hormonal birth control. There's no need to stop puberty just to stop menstruation. And breast growth must be unpleasant for many even for girls who don't identify as trans, I imagine it would be safer to wear a "sensible" binder than take puberty blockers. And you can have a mastectomy as an adult if that is what you wish.
They also aren’t in touch with the societies this affects, how it affects other people, nothing, I guarantee they live with modern sterile white cabinets
Right off the bat, you could have spent 25 minutes dissecting the misleading "assigned male" rhetoric. I applaud your restraint, since it allowed even more revealing topics to come to the fore!
Please please please pause and question what someone means when they say assigned at birth. Also pointing to puberty blockers as life saving due to increased Rick of suicide should be challenged. Where is the evidence for this? I love you podcast and the work you are doing generally though with your platform I hope the time has come where you can call people out on their misuse of language and distorted facts.
18:50 wtf bro? Diabetes is a physical health issue, it can easily be diagnosed, it's well understood, and there are good treatments. Treatment for diabetes is to ensure the person's blood sugar gets back in normal ranges, and that's what they do, the effects of this treatment can easily be measured. Mood, outlook on life, mental health are NOT part of what diabetes medication treat. Why are you talking about a physical health issue when the issue is a MENTAL health issue that you guys decided needs a physical treatment!? Medical transition is given to people to relieve mental distress, depression, anxiety etc IF these mental issues can somehow be attributed to "gender incongruence". There is nothing wrong with the body. Then you need to look at the mental health of someone to see whether this "treatment" "works". If someone who transitioned to relieve mental health issues is still struggling a lot with their mental health despite years of medical transition, then you should seriously consider that your "treatment" failed
It's frustrating to hear these researchers talk about "nonbinary" and "queer" teens and how they know what it means. NOBODY knows what it means. It just means you're a teen who feels different. So...95% of teens, then.
I bet they are going along with the NB and queer BS because A: they want more patients, and B: if they deny NB exists, they will have to also see that trans is BS, and that means they'd quit these jobs and have to realise how much they hurt children and young people by transing them.
I agree with many opinions here. But from the start I wouldn't have even considered a study like this where the sponsor ( of the long term study), is the company that sells " puberty blockers"!! I wouldn't even read, or I would check every data suspecting the study. I can't trust this study. And why can't other studies be conducted independently, the repeatedly afirrm they are the only ones in the world. Shame on us if we have not pushed for our own studies, doing them in they should be done, randomized, etc. , Enough numbers... Who's given doctors permission to do this without enough evidence?
This is cultural Marxism. When society failed to evolve as Marx predicted people like Georg Luckac and Antonio Gramsci became obsessed with formulating a reason for this (other than Marx was wrong). The idea of False Consciousness turned the tables away from the "oppressors" onto the "oppressed". This reframed Marx's predictions not as a failure of Marx but a failure of the people who should be revolting. This was put down to the stultifying numbing effects of a comfortable life - bought to them through capitalism. Today the emphasis is upon waking up people's true consciousness. The awakening (according to Marxist pedagog Paulo Fereir) begins with exposing and being critical of the norms of the broader society. This cynical culture of blame gives rise to the idea a person's 'true' self is denied them (Freudian Marxism). Consequently, the therapist must look to the oppressed to reveal their true state, stripped of the oppressive cultural baggage placed upon them to conform. Truely a very very cynical theory of reality, it focusses on dismantling social norms, that is, our common values, to bring about Liberation (capital L).
This was a hard listen for me, they are defending this protocol which is flawed in to many ways and they know it. They are to smart to not know it. Terrible
They spoke to them so we could hear them grasp at straws trying to justify what they're responsible for. That's not associating that is a service to all of us. I may have been throwing things at my innocent phone but it wasn't at Stella & Sasha.
@@widerlenspod This series you are presenting to us is sometimes challenging to listen to. However, I am so grateful that you are widening the understanding of the original practices and research which have in part brought us to the point we are at in this moment. It takes courage to put this information out for the public to examine. As Maya Angelo said:” When we know better, we can do better.” My views have gone through multiple transformations as new voices were brought to my attention. Thank you for this critically important interview. Please keep up this essential work.
@@widerlenspod just that you’ve posted articles from Edwards-Leeper, who trained directly under Cohen-Kettenis, and was also a founding member of GeMS in 2007, which was the first pediatric gender clinic in America. She continues to assess children, within one session, and pass them along to endocrinologists and surgeons. Genspect shares her tweets occasionally, as does Aaron K. Was a pediatric Gender clinic necessary in 2007? Was it something Americans were really looking for? I completely understand why you talk to the Doctors from Canada, but Edwards-Leeper is different. It seems as though she wants to appear as cautious, but she doesn’t advocate for exploratory therapy, or at least doesn’t believe in it enough to practice it. I think what Genspect does is wonderful, and I have so much admiration for all who are working so hard on this. If she had some sort of “crisis of faith”, and realized she made a huge mistake by working to bring the Dutch protocol to America, then I can’t understand why she hasn’t at least changed the way she works with gender confused children. It’s not possible to even try to get to the root of a teenager’s problems when you only talk to them for four hours, in one session. It can take months, even years, for a young person to feel comfortable enough with their therapist to divulge information they’ve never told anyone. I understand she’s in Oregon, but if she truly understood how dangerous it is to not just affirm only(“affirm” or “affirmative” is mentioned more times than I can count on her website), but to do such a brief assessment, then how can she continue to do it, in good conscience? There is so much at stake. Within the next five years, the market predicts more young women will be having SRS than young men. Phalloplasty is really not something that can be improved upon. I promise, I’m not on the side of the people(or person) who has been so horrible to you, Genspect parents, and their children, over the last few months. Im just trying to understand why you all would want anything to do with Edwards-Leeper, considering how easy it is to find out about her background. And the Dutch protocol was never meant for females, but at this point in time, I can only imagine the majority of children being put on puberty blockers at age 12-14 are females, not males. So it doesn’t even make sense that she ever would have genuinely believed it was a good idea to try on girls.
The language the Dutch are using is clearly biased and not objective. "Finding out" you're on the wrong developmental pathway. You don't find out. You have a condition, perhaps, and you figure out how to deal with it. But it's very, very rarely the "wrong" pathway.
A lot of these comments project American, Canadian, and British perspective on the Dutch protocol. Do these people think that the Netherlands treats gender dysphoria as a political problem like the UK, the States, and Canada do ?
While I agree that most people who call themselves gender critical refuse to acknowledge that there does exist a very small group of teenagers for whom medical transition is probably the best option, the Dutch protocol was doomed to be a disaster. Don’t mess with puberty. The male bodied people who benefit from transition are also capable of completing puberty and then transitioning, and passing well. Everything about a 12 year old boy is more similar to a 10 year old than a 16 or 17 year old. Peenis size? Check! Prostate size/function? Check! Emotional/social maturity? Check! Ability to pair bond? Check! Take away their puberty and you take away what little chance they have of forming long term relationships(the desire for which is supposedly the key driver in transitioning) with straight men. And while the Dutch protocol never should have existed to begin with, I think it’s understandable that people in other countries don’t really grasp what the intention was, when most children being put on GnRH analogues now are female.
So, the children who didn't want to fill out a form because they cannot perceive of using that half an hour due to the fact that even adolescents have a limited ability to project into the future (and this blindness to time is an important feature of ADHD, by the way)... these same children are capable of projecting into the future to see the real, material consequences of things like medically unnecessary double mastectomies as major surgery? Risk of general anaesthetic, adhesions, bleeding...
Steensma points out about detransition, that it’s “a developmental process, to find our you’re on the wrong pathway.” Wouldn’t this point alone be sufficient to end transitioning children? They have significant developmental process yet to go through, they don’t - can’t - know how they will feel even a year down the road much less an entire lifetime.
These two people seem quite well-intentioned, even kindly, but their very good intentions put them inside a bubble. And through acting within that bubble, they become monsters.
End transitioning young adults too and anybody who is mentally not sound or stable... there more than enough other social justice movements to for young people to hang their hats on that of far more importance that will make this gender ideology of no significance in anybody's life (like Sadguru says in this interview on Daily show three days ago ua-cam.com/video/akrtCsRkV60/v-deo.html)
GNTRHs (puberty blockers) do not only suppress the growth of primary and secondary sex characteristics, but also have arresting effects on development of the brain and its functional maturity. Specifically, areas responsible for making choices and sound judgement.
@@Gingerblaze Yes. This should be obvious to anyone with even a minimal knowledge of brain development. Yet doctors, who ought to know better, seem not to know or care that they are creating permanent cognitive impairment.
These clinicians (DeVries and Steensman)are truly frightening. At 48:47 in, the provider states that as a psychologist it is not his position to decide whether or not a patient has gender, incongruousness or not. Then how do you justify the treatment arrived at? The surgeons must rely on the psychologist to confirm the need for surgery in these cases, I think. There are no other diagnostic tools.
More surgeons in this field should read Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein.
20 minutes in and my thoughts went straight to frankenstien. These people are monsters imo
I'm so glad that I was born 40 years ago and so didn't fall prey to this terrible ideology.
Edit: I have ADHD and autism, and am a same-sex attracted woman.
These people are disgusting. They are responsible for so much suffering and harm being done to children around the world.
Oh no, a girl is distressed by her puberty. That's... Normal. Tell me a girl who ISN'T distressed by puberty?!
Haven't listened yet!!!! I can't wait!!!!!!
To be fair they did a study. They didn’t tell the world to follow suit and apply some of their methods willy nilly to a child that’s distressed about gender.
What an example of how difficult it is for scientists/doctors to admit to failure.
Did the term gender nonconforming or the term "likely homosexual" also not exist?
They will never admit failure. I think many MDs are not capable of that. Dutch society isn't a litigious one, but they probably will never admit wrongdoing just in case someone may want to sue.
BIG props to Stella for calling out the glaring confound inherent in switching from the girl dysphoria scale to the boy one after transition. This is why clinical "research" is very often 100% meaningless unless a there's either a psychometrician or someone as shrewd as Stella on both the research design team *and* one among the peer reviewers.
Absolutely, couldn't believe that! You'd think that the researchers themselves should be that shrewd. It's not exactly complicated to see that that didn't make sense.
I'm not sure I get your - or Stella's point - here: 'gender dysphoria' is defined as "the distress a person experiences due to a mismatch between their gender identity-their personal sense of their own gender-and their sex assigned at birth": if, by transitioning, someone's appearance is more in line with the characteristic of the opposite sex, it seems to me quite obvious that their gender dysphoria is very likely to have improved
@@ivanlondon The problem is a crucial flaw with the psychometric measure itself. After transition, the questions are shifted as if they are addressing the person as their desired sex instead of measuring their baseline complaint/source of distress - the inescapable truth that they are a member of their sex and their distress about that. That 'gender' switch to the questions during or post-transition in itself shows an ideologically-driven skew away from objectivity, an affirmation, by assuming that they have somehow transformed into the opposite sex in a meaningful way. It has ceased to be an objective measuring instrument by becoming a therapeutic tool, and can therefore yield no objectively relevant results. It's quite jarring that the experimenters just gloss over this fact, speaking as a psych student who has designed a psychometric measure and performed statistical analyses on similarly subjective data about 'feelings'.
In other words, a dysphoric girl filling in a self-report questionnaire addressing her as if she's a boy now, and how she feels about that idea, by itself is going to predictably act as a) a placebo treatment, that b) may induced euphoria, and so c) can not meaningfully measure anything about the root cause of the distress as it colludes with the delusion that they have indeed changed sex. This is especially relevant when talking about young people as we know they are so so suggestible. Helping young people deny the truth of the body they're in may lift their mood temporarily, but it will wear thin over time as the body continues to assert its sexed reality. There is no way such a measure as described here can begin to predict long-term satisfaction or wellness by having a starting point that denies that they are indeed still female, no matter what physical changes they have observed.
@@ivanlondongender dysphoria is a symptom of other issues
When I hear that phrase, “assigned at birth,” I know the interview will be spiraling off into something not based in reality. Far too much credit and confidence is bestowed on the medical and psychological community. I’m skeptical.
That phrase also drives me nuts! Sex is not assigned at birth! It is something that is determined at conception and observed on ultrasound or at birth by what is evident and present!
Want to thank the researchers for coming on, it's even more illuminating for a lot of us than I think they realise
If one person regrets destroying their body then the whole process should be shut down until more research is done.
And there are many already known. People who aren't happy or detrans are rejected by the ideology..
Interesting the researchers admit actively look at the motivation of de-transitioner.. but simply affirm the transitioners??
I'm really glad you had the courage to do this interview, especially in a situation where there are those keen to misrepresent what you are doing but what planet are these people on? Well, yes, when the outcome isn't good we can't know if they would have had a better life had they not transition but that doesn't change that the fact they have no evidence that this improves people's lives at all. Thanks for a valuable insight into these people.
Shocking interview. They have not been paying attention. I’m even more wary now.
I can’t help wondering how history will view these two. There is suddenly a big shift at about the one hour mark in their attitude towards their patients/clients, but that could be happenstance and not just being under pressure from Stella and Sasha. There seems to be clutching at straws to justify their position at times, but that could be because activists have extrapolated the meaning of affirmative treatment to mean “no discussion whatsoever” and their claims of having more nuanced views have been disregarded in some clinics.
As a girl who was good at maths at university in the 70’s (rare for my location) and as I now understand, was (is) psychologically androgynous so did not fit in at all in my local culture other than to try to wing it by appearing to be fun at parties, I really am glad that this whole nightmare of transitioning was simply unavailable. Teenage girls need depth, understanding and emotional attunement. It really does seem frightening, the apparent gender transitioning railroading that some people are campaigning for.
Their answer for detrans is that one day u might feel this way, another day I might feel that way, anything goes, u might feel trans, then u might not, u might feel gay, u might not bc it’s all always changing. How can they defend that view while also defending making irrevocable changes to the body that will last forever
Incredible, spine chilling interview. I see countless parallels in what is touted here and the trans groom-y tiktok content. Y'all were so courteous and almost gentle in your approach to critical analysis of what these folks were saying, yet still conveying the strong investigative, logical, humane side that we've grown to know in y'all, Sasha and Stella.
One of the most important podcasts on the subject ever. I wonder if Stella and Sasha's excellent interview didn't topple the Dutch Protocol
My perhaps basic reaction to this discussion is wondering again why we are medicalizing a psychological and sociological condition. I still wonder what gender dysphoria really means and what the treatment really fixes, if anything. The healthiest approach still seems to be about accepting one's body and trying to change society to be more accepting of gender non-conformity. Why are doctors not promoting the healthiest approach? Instead, too many are promoting medicalization and false concepts such as "assigned" sex at birth. I feel we can get lost in the weeds of how medicalization is justified. I tend to be anti-medicalization in general and anti-plastic surgery, etc. But being against medicalization shouldn't be portrayed as being against the liberation of people's gender.
@Eklektika Perhaps, but why isn't changing clothes, haircuts, and taking on different roles enough nowadays? Before medicalization that is what people did. And we cannot change our bodies to really be another sex, so how does the gender dysphoria get fully relieved? I don't have the condition so I don't really understand that part. Also, I don't see someone as really not suffering if they are a lifelong medical patient. I know it is said that some people need this treatment because nothing else works, but I can't help but wonder if that is really true. Even some well-adjusted trans individuals like those from Gender Dysphoria Alliance seem to question it a bit. As I said, I tend to be wary of medicalization of other psychological conditions, for example, depression and anxiety, so I continue that skepticism with gender dysphoria.
They make their living from perpetuating distress in order to study it.
Because you can't make money from people who have accepted and are content with their body... Is all about pharma bucks.
What a fabulous opportunity to interview these scientists to understand the context + their perspective. Stella at times I found it frustrating that you interrupted speakers + you appeared unprepared with regards some of the research methodology. But I really admired your ability to side step certain galling comments about the ineffectiveness of psychotherapy on helping with gender dysphoria. Thank you both for this resource!!
Wow! Thanks Sasha and Stella! And thanks to Steesma and De Vries.
I think I have to listen to this episode a few more times to fully get an understanding of what was said though.
It must be very difficult to unravel this issue especially given the timeline spanning almost 60 years pre and post medical and surgical interventions.
Listening to Doctors Susan, Az, Ray, Stephen, Ken and Michael I get the impression that at some point in time the collective conventional wisdom was sidelined at almost the same time as the population presenting got younger and more numerous. This happened at the same time as the growth of social media for kids and young adults. So all of a sudden these lonely nerdy kids find each other online and automatically appeared more knowledgeable than their parents, teachers and even most medical professionals just because they have the vocabulary.
Not to get angry or offensive but don't you have to know something about the development of a child's brain to work in this field?
Don't you have to know something about child physical development into adulthood before you administer" puberty blockers "?.
As euphemistic as it sounds they do what they say, they block growth.
And in some cases that treatment is necessary but not on an industrial scale. We find ourselves now , trying to put the genie back into the bottle.
Now would be a good time to call a truce. Stop the all the drama and help each other!
Can we as older and wiser people given all the stuff we know now do this for each other?
18:36 that comparison to diabetes
Diabetes or interventions for other health issues is not comparable to altering your body to appear as the opposite sex to address a psychological issue and as a result struggling to find a partner (because to be frank, most of the population are either straight or homosexual, you're making it incredibly hard on yourself to find a partner who is attracted to your presentation AND your gen* tals, that's just the fact of it, gay men don't want to be with females, lesbians don't want to be with males) and/or still feeling disgust with your gen* tals. The very intervention is exacerbating the problem the patient has, unless they're asexual! Diabetes treatment isn't going to resolve any underlying mental health issues - it's not intended to, it's not sold as performing that function for the patient.
Imagine giving an anorexic a gastric bypass with the promise they will feel full and no longer have hunger due to starving themselves AND their self-image will improve. 20 years on, guess what, the anorexic is still crippled with the body dysmorphia & eating disorder, only now with the medical intervention they've changed their body to the point where nothing near a "normal" relationship with eating is possible.
That's how they see gender non-conformity. We're a disease to them.
I felt that if you talked about diabetes treatment and heart disease together it would have made a hell if a lot of sense just as gender relationships and sexuality are related. Gender and diabetes no but obviously gender and relationships and sexuality are intricately related so I understood Stella’s point perfectly.
As a diabetic, if you gave me a treatment that involved amputating my arms because of some novel theory of how diabetes works, and two years later my diabetes had resolved but I had huge regrets and a reduced quality of life and desperately wished I had my arms back, that would absolutely be relevant to assessing whether it was an appropriate and effective treatment.
Oh and of course if the surgical procedure killed me, that would also be quite relevant.
I really wonder how this will all shake out, if it will turn out medicalisation was the disaster as it looks to be at the moment to me. They certainly sound confident. I don’t doubt they get to see how happy and “reborn” their patients are, reading between the lines, for them this is all no different to sexual orientation, and like medicalising is no different to accepting someone’s sexuality, and our inner feeling of being a man or a woman is in constant flux for some people the way sexuality is. Sounds really like a wild idea to me, but there you go.
If they think of it that way, then that’s got to be an enormous incentive to them. They really believe they are doing the best thing for their patients.
Credit to them for being willing to do the interview - it’s felt like very few people in these positions give interviews like this. Though at the end they say they are often doing media interviews, one gets the impression they are not used to defending their ideas around certain things (likely because media has all been coming from the perspective of “This is about understanding LGBT”, and less “Is it right to medicalise kids? What about detransitioners?” etc)
I question this too. It's apparent to me (after meeting some transitioners in my life) that a lot of these persons aren't the "real deal" trans so to speak. Obviously what my friends believe about themselves isn't true, instead they have formulated false beliefs about themselves that are wrapped up in ideology and a need for self esteem.
But will these beliefs hold out? Every day load of people believe in things that are bizarre. If you're an athiest I'm sure you would agree that a lot of religious people believe in some wacky things. And these people hold these beliefs as sacred for the rest of their lives! Who knows, these kids might just go on believing forever.
I also recall what Az Hakeem said in a previous episode - that the more ASD they are the less likely they are to regret transition. They don't have the self awareness, emotional regulation, or theory of mind to figure out that this isn't what is really going on. Ignorance can truly be bliss.
@@sarahrobinson5121 I think unfortunately where we're heading is probably going to be less and less emphasis on being "trans" and more and more emphasis on wanting to appear androgynous via surgeries & hormones. From listening to these doctors, it seems they're more than happy to move in the direction of "anyone with any negative feeling of any kind around their gender presentation can go for this cosmetic surgery with hormones"
I think we're already seeing that with these "non-binary" surgeries girls are having which basically amount to mastectomies and taking T (apparently breasts ARE womanly so not androgynous, but flat chested male-presenting IS androgynous?? It's a bit mind-bending how they square that circle - like, why are male features the "neutral default"?)
It all just looks a bit like girls & women trying to "unmake" their own female bodies, and escape into another category. I guess if that's where we're heading, that's where we're heading - maybe if it really becomes a cosmetic movement, they'll leave the kids alone and it will just be young adults wrecking their bodies * sigh *
"religious people believe in some wacky things. And these people hold these beliefs as sacred for the rest of their lives! Who knows, these kids might just go on believing forever." - exactly. And if they pivoted to promoting it like that, rather than as "born this way" like sexual orientation, I could accept it. They can believe whatever they want, but the society doesn't then have to enshrine the religious tenants of gender-ology into our laws! That's what's been so terrifying about all this. A religion coming in under the guise of a civil rights movement.
RE: ASD and regret - yes, I absolutely wouldn't find this surprising. I wish studies were being done on all this stuff. But tying this to the earlier point, funnily enough it seems people on the autistic spectrum are LESS likely to be religious because religions involve a theory of mind about God. Maybe we're seeing an anti-theory of mind religion here. A religion for people who struggle with understanding how others perceive them.
Nothing will change. We have Republican Governors and AG’s pointing at parents while gender clinics run away with all the money(and donate some to them, of course). This is 💯 on parents, as far as taking necessary steps to protect their kids from falling prey to whatever happens to them that leads to a desperate need to escape their bodies in the first place. I know how most parents operate, and I’m confident in saying hell is more likely to freeze over than that is to happen.
@@L_Martin I agree that this looks like where it's headed - some kind of extreme body modification culture, pick and choose the parts you want. Totally devoid of reality. I think though this is where it might come undone. People in the middle will look at this and realise that it's untethered from reality. I doubt some Happy Clappy documentary will sell normal people on the idea of neutrois people getting their nipples or genitals removed because they believe that they're neither a man or a woman. Especially when you get up close to these people and realise there isn't any foundation for this belief. It's farcical. But we've managed to get this far with non-binary, so I could be wrong.
"A religion for people who struggle with understanding how others perceive them." As an atheist I've wondered for a while whether this is where we'd go as a society. Religion without a god.
Personally, my litmus test for religions is whether or not they work for someone. I don't care if you believe some wacky ideas if it's working for you. So does this one work?
From watching videos of detransitioners I will make a few observations. They might bottom out on the ideology when their lack of functioning catches up with them and the ideology can't prop them up anymore. Some develop social and self awareness and realise that this isn't what was going on. And some just seem to get bored of it and realise they want more in life.
There might be a sweet spot in the middle, where they're functional enough to not hit "rock bottom" but not socially aware enough to figure it out. Maybe they're also helped along by a bit of cognitive dissonance and having a "queer" or "counter culture" type community around them.
Most religions (that aren't abusive) will try to improve people's functioning and then keep them busy with stable work, family, and community- the big ticket items that hit our psychological needs long term.
There are only so many transition steps you can take before you're done. I wonder what will happen when these kids reach their 30s or 40s and their friends in the sub-culture are moving to the suburbs and settling down.
Sub-culture by definition will move on. We will write all the essays we can on post-modernism and go to all the conferences and then some bright spark will come up with the next big idea in philosophy and we'll all be applying for grants to write about this latest and greatest idea. Gender ideology will become stayed, maybe it will become mainstream, either way it won't be subversive anymore. Will it last out? Will they jump onto the next thing (when they're 50)?
I don't know. These kids give a lot to their belief system. I'd rather pay a 10% tithe and waste my Sundays than get my genitals and nipples removed.
I thought this was a great interview. It’s clear that the researchers have a specific perspective and are focused on the individual/specific outcomes in their work. I remain of the opinion that medical tx for minors should not occur but hearing them speak did help me understand a bit more of where like minded clinicians are coming from. I’ve been nurse and health care administrator for nearly 2 decades and it does remind me that there are well established standards of care in with other more innocuous physical conditions that are still the standard but new research is showing may have not been the best approach for long term health, well being and quality of life. The medical model is very pathology centric. There’s a dx and a narrow tx (ie a pill or a surgery) because that’s what is the easiest to study and implement in our complex healthcare system. It’s often the case that a more nuanced and holistic remedy it’s what’s best as is most certainly the case here. Thank you for your diligent exploration of the subject!
This interview is like discovering the source of the Nile.
I found the diabetes analogy a false equivalence. Gender affirming care is like treating cancer with insulin.
I just listened to you on Boyce’s channel talking about this episode. So here I am thank you for all of the good work
If they’re basing puberty blocking on the stories of adult transitioners reflecting back on their own childhood, how do they know the adults are being honest in reflections?
And even if they are being as honest as they possibly could, what of the ways we revise our own personal history due to our own biases, personality? Are these researchers even taking in to account that having gender dysphoria or any body dysmorphic condition means having a mind that obsesses on their preoccupation, that is desperate to dissociate from the ideas that trigger anxiety, and that may have a vested interest in repeating a narrative that anything was better than being the person, or a person in the state that they hated?
Also the adults saying their puberty was distressing were the people who didn’t have their issues resolve on their own. The selection bias is off the charts. The voices of the overwhelming majority of people who’s dysphoria resolved on its own or lessened to an extent are not being heard. The exception is being presented as the rule. If we are to take personal anecdotes as evidence on persistence of gender dysphoria, the anecdotes of those who grew out of it need to be presented in parallel.
I still don't get the rationale for switching the male/female dysphoria scale. How can this give sensible results?
Surely, it's quite obvious that the results produced by just switching the scales would always show “improvement” even without any treatment whatsoever.
After all, the fact that female dysphoria wouldn't register on a male dysphoria scale must have been the reason for having two scales in the first place.
Surely the researchers must have been aware of this.
So did the study look at how the results changed after switching the scales after transition COMPARED TO how the results change by just switching the scales without any treatment?
This is the key, because switching the scale is precisely a way of fixing the result of the experiment! I can't believe they didnt press him more on this issue.
@@SkepticalTeacher I think they had to keep the conversation open and still evolving. I could definitely hear Stella champing at the bitt to dig in with this, but I think it was right for them to hold back and let them speak. Sometimes- the hole can just keep on digging itself!
We analyzed this switch in great depth in our post-series discussion episode (will come out at the end of the series in a few weeks)
The design of the scales means that swapping the scales automatically improves the score. The scales include items that are about obsession with becoming the target sex ( initially ). When the scale is swapped , for example a trans identified girl can only receive the same score if she is suddenly fixated on wanting to be seen and and have the presentation of a female. That isn't going to be the outcome of even the most catastrophic regret case . The " dysphoria " score will lower in all cases except suddenly feeling obsessed about presenting as the sex they previously struggled with.
At the time the study was first published I wrote a letter to a few key people about how a jellybean would produce the same " improvement " if the scale swap was similarly applied. And that being the case, how can a sterilizing intervention then be provided in preference to the jellybean ?
And it's worse than just that.. The scale corruption is intentional , and I say this for very specific reasons .. There was another paper ( now buried ) about removing " intersex dysphoria " from the gender dysphoria scale. Which was done under the pretext of protecting intersex people against failure ( nonsense as the scale shouldn't be used on them , even theoretically) . What this removal of relevant items did was removed items regarding distress about ambiguous appearance, and distress about being outside easy social integration into male or female category.
It's similar to how the famous Swedish trans study ( the whole cohort one) inappropriately controlled for intermediate factors that might themselves be negative outcomes of gender interventions.
@@georginawhitby1320 It's not just the swapping, either-there's not even a way to know whether the scales are directly comparable! I don't actually know how the numbers work for these specific assessments, but suppose a patient scored a 1.2 on the male scale and a 3.6 on the female scale, does that mean the patient is three times more distressed as a female than as a male? Only if they're perfectly calibrated such that 1.0 units of distress is the same on both scales, AND if the zero point is exactly the same. But that's impossible to know. Consider also if they had simply administered BOTH scales before and after to see what happened. Who's to say that a patient couldn't have gotten WORSE on both scales simultaneously but with a better baseline in their "target" category? The swap hides that effect completely.
They compared apples to oranges here, any way you slice it. The results are inconclusive at best.
Glad you did this episode, but these people are so misguided. Their use of gender ideology terms is a red flag too.
So these two think that if society changes due to social media, their job is to just shrug and treat the results?
They talked about having up to a third not continue through for medical transition or people deciding if transition or other options would be best - just so curious what those other options would be - were other services provided for the third of people who didn’t continue on? Is there room to establish treatment options for gender dysphoria that aren’t medical that could be offered and not seen as “conversion therapy”?
Please keep pushing stella and sasha. Fantastic work
Just writing my thoughts as I listen
55:40 really suggesting the tolerance in the UK for e.g. is so much less?
1:01:53 she says ROGD is not a real phenomenon. So, good to know their thinking.
1:06:33 so there are some things that need further study before you can be sure - namely ROGD. But not puberty blockers? Risks of puberty blockers we can be unsure about, but we can just sound confident and hope for the best?
1:12:45 “birth assigned females” - I just don’t get this language. A female is female from birth to death. Why do they keep using male and female as assigned? Are these terms now just as meaningless as man and woman to them?
1:00:27 so adolescence today involves questions like:
-Who am I?
-Where do I belong?
-What is my sexuality?
-Does my GENDER IDENTITY match my body??
Framing this like it’s a normal question every kid should be asking themselves is just bizarre to me. No other questioning of your sense of self as a teen involves medicalisation.
Pretty incredible interview. They say at the end it was tough in places… ugh I feel a lot of dread about all this, but they do think these kids are being best served with medicalisation.
They sound surprisingly naive at points. The assumption that no one would go through this if it wasn't what was best for them is essentially denying desisters and detrans existence. Especially odd as they say the mechanism for gender dysphoria is unclear and seem at least partially aware of the effect of social media.
It's also interesting that their focus seems to be on gender incongruence, largely do the patients feel they look a bit more like their identified gender in a simplistic manner, while in America this seems to be sold to parents as suicide prevention. I can't help but feel that if we are talking about essentially appearance then this is closer to cosmetic surgery than care. In no other circumstances would we accept infertility and inability to have an adult sex life in order to "improve" appearance.
I think Social Media is just a symptom. The TRAs have manipulated legislation to promote this epistemology. The legal framework has required universities, teacher training colleges, hospitals, government instruments like schools to swallow and affirm this world outlook.
It's a fad because kids are being taught by adults that this is the nature of reality. People are being spoon fed it and don't have the resources to resist it - so all embracing has the state's influence become.
"Gender Incongruence" is the current ( politically loaded ) European standard term for "gender dysphoria" ( formerly gender identity disorder ). It was developed as a term to reconceptualize the target condition as automatically defining the solution as re-alligning the body to be " congruent " with the identity.
@@georginawhitby1320 I find the shift in terminology really blurs the aims.
It seems to me that we were initially attempting to help people with mental health issues but now, under pressure from trans activist groups, we seem to have shifted to a confusing concept where there isn't actually a medical issue to solve and the problem arises simply by identifying as trans. And is solved by transitioning. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it seems almost purposefully confusing.
I mean surely there's an argument that non-trans ppl have a degree of gender incongruence so does that mean they could/should start taking hormones or get surgeries if they are "masculine" women or "effeminate" men?
I just can't follow the logic. I thought the original argument used to be that these people have a mental illness/distress which is alleviated by certain treatments. It sounds suspiciously like the aim in the research nowadays is just to make people "pass". While at the same time outside of the research parents are being told it's about mental health or giving kids time. It's completely incoherent to me.
They are assuming all these kids can truly give informed consent, and that a child/teenager knows what's best for them. We all know both those things are false. Firstly, scientists hardly scratched the surface of figuring out how puberty blockers affect physically-healthy children, psychologists mostly aren't going to know all that medical scientists know, and kids don't even have the ability to really grasp this info anyways (assuming they would be given this info). Secondly, we all acknowledge that kids and young teens DON'T know what's best for them which is why you need to be 16, 18, or even 20/21 for big decisions in life (despite some of them arguably having lesser consequences than puberty blockers on a healthy body): can't get certain piercings until 16-18, can't get a tattoo under 18, can't drink alcohol under 18 or even 21, can't marry until 18, can't defend your country until 18, can't work as a SWer (where legal) until at least 18, can't drive until 16-18, can't start a business or get a loan until 18, etc. Surely it's easier to dissolve a marriage you rushed into at age 18 or to leave the military if you realise you made a mistake when you signed up, than it is to undo damage to your brain or bones or fertility from puberty blockers or wrong-sex hormones? No sane tattoo artist is going to tattoo the face of an 18 year old, so that back piece or sleeve you got at 18 or 19 can still easily be covered up for a job. If needed, you can get laser removal on any bits that are too close to your hand or neck to be hidden. Can't get a tattoo when you're 11 but you can choose infertility, risk of cognitive issues, risk of bone decline, menopause symptoms, and depression. This world makes 0 sense. These researchers even say some of their patients don't have massive distress, so why trans them, then?
@@billmartins5545 I'm really struggling with what their motivations are. I apparently watched this 7 months ago. Since then I can't get rid of this sensation that they knew they effectively falsified the results by switching the male and female surveys.
This has been compounded by another research paper I've seen by De Vries which supposedly shows that post-affirmative care these patients have better sex lives. They do this by taking 20 yr olds ask them to document how many sexual/kissing activities they've had and then thinking back to 18 and saying how many they had. They then compare the numbers and show that sexual activity has gone up. Which you could get from literally any group of 20 yr olds thinking back to had they had less total sex 2 yrs ago.
BTW these patients giving oral sex or having anal sex is seen as somehow proof they're happy with their bodies.
Then they ask only those who had sex, which is a number way lower than the average, how happy they're with their sex lives but none of the 70% who haven't had sex yet to show how happy they all are with their sex lives.
I just don't see how they can't know this is not scientific at all. Do they just have overconfidence in the ability to spot "true trans" (which obviously doesn't exist)? Have they just swallowed a lot of claims about suicidality or that aesthetics will solve mental health and not analyzed them? It's like they're willing to cross all kinds of ethical and scientific lines in order to get kids into affirmative care. I just don't understand why.
And THIS is what we are basing the mutilation of minors body’s on??? This is bonkers!
Your own Helena appeared in an excellent panel at channel named The Center For Bioethics and Culture Network channel. Colin Wright, Dr. Michael Laidlaw, endocrinologist. Why only 2 studies? Why N = such small numbers. Watch the above channel, The Center For Bioethics and Culture Network, where you can also find the film Trans Mission. REAL SCIENCE.
So, he is responsible for this hugely damaging trend among vulnerable young people, most of who are same-sex attracted, and perhaps also a majority of whom have autism. How progressive! 🤔
He's an ideologue. The nonsense he's spewing is bone chilling. Basically he's happy for these children to self diagnose, completely disregards childhood developmental stages and goes ahead with medical impairment to health and mutilation.
@@adlernewman I notice that the other comment, which was also critical, has been deleted. There was nothing remotely offensive about it.
@@SkepticalTeacher Nothing surprises me these days regarding this topic. Mostly, because people espousing it are gender cultists. Their "science" is as much science as scientology is. And the fact they are considered "experts" is just shocking.
@@SkepticalTeacher The UA-cam filter will often auto delete comments if they include certain words. Channel owners have no control over that.
Autism is over diagnosed. So is ADHD. Most, or dare I say all, children who experience what is labeled gender dysphoria(aside from pre gay males) have experienced trauma; major trauma. A woman who gets a diagnosis of ASD and ADHD(rather than being diagnosed as a child) most likely is exhibiting traits of narcissism(which many psychologists attribute to ASD), and borderline personality, or complex post traumatic stress, disorder(which many psychologists attribute to ADHD). Narcissism and BPD/C-PTSD result from neglect and seggsual abuse during childhood. ASD and ADHD are actual brain disorders that don’t just pop up, or get worse with age. They’re both quite rare in females anyway. There’s no missing signs of ASD in young children(aside from maybe very high functioning, or previously known as aspergers, in girls, maybe), and there’s certainly no missing signs of ADHD in children. People are born with them. It may be possible for a physical head injury early in childhood, or even later, to mimic symptoms of ADHD, but that’s not the typical course of diagnosis in genuine ADHD.
'medical steps not so easy to reverse'...no you can't stick body parts back on. These people are shockingly blase.
This interview is so important. I really do think history will remember you both in the end. Also, I hate how this bizarre community uses language. “Affirmative care” “gender assigned at birth” “colon vagina”??? As a woman, I find it so offensive and demeaning to suggest that a body part unique to women, can be applied to a man’s surgically altered colon?? Call it something else, leave our language alone, because that’s not a vagina. Thank you.
Thank you
I feel the manipulation and defensive is deep with these 2.
Why do I sense these very thoughtful people couldn't even tell us what 'gender' or 'queer' is? Whilst this is literally being propelled by critical theory, an ideology explicitly adverse to objective truth, the notion of having considered 'clinical' practice is absurd.
I can't with these Dutch researchers and their "Yes, there was that thing [that totally invalidates our results and conclusions] but it was the best we could do. It was a clinical a study!" GTFO with that absolute horse crap! These people are well-intentioned but they're ignorant, deluded, incompetent and irresponsible. Yeah, I said it. Always love you Sasha & Stella though!!!
Exactly... this was a difficult one to listen too without yelling at the computer...
It’s like they didn’t work with any endocrinologists at all. It feels like common sense that messing with puberty would cause big problems.
@@katieandnick4113 YES! That's the seminal problem here, isn't it!
@@ericainches3423 Totally. I actually had to take a few calm-down breaks each time I caught myself stewing instead of listening. I actually listened to this ep over the course of a day.
I wonder if these researchers are aware of the many social media mechanisms that teenagers use to give one another advice about how to access treatment….namely all the content that is out there that encourages them to lie about their experiences (you’re still valid, they’re just transphobic and won’t give you access to hormones unless you tell them you’ve always felt this way), gives them scripts to essentially perform for clinicians with the goal of transition at any cost. I understand their need to believe their young patients, but at the end of the day it does not sound like they are doing their due diligence to investigate the culture that has sprung up around trans issues and the ways in which young people influence one another. It’s unfortunate. Can someone show them Tumblr and Reddit? 😂
The increase of girls presenting with dysphoria must have some social/bullying aspect. The problem is with society, not the child. Also, gender incongruousness is not, in my own experience, permanent. Again I believe the problem is with society-gender/sex is not "assigned" at birth-gender ROLES are assigned. And these are not one size fits all.
I'm just not enjoying being female. I will never know what life is like as a male, but I think the physical experience is better: no menstruation, risk of unwanted pregnancy and having to deal with birth control. We're also physically weaker, more injury prone making many physical jobs just not possible or not for long (until you inevitably get an injury, just look at how few women have a career in physically demanding jobs and stick around past age 40/for more than five years). I could take testosterone but that harms my health although it would help physical abilities. I was never appealed by pregnancy, I could perhaps imagine being a dad, but not a mum, so I don't have kids. But I'll never be male. But I've accepted that. There's probably advantages to being female, I think social life is easier for us, and I think child rearing comes more natural to many women vs men. Not sure that's worth the physical burden of being female... But in any way, we don't get to choose, so it's best to make the best out of what you are.
55:25 uncritical inclusion of 't' alongside 'lgb' exposes the lack of discernment in the nature of these two groups.
One is attracted to the same sex, the other is nothing whatsover to do with sexual orientation and actually denies the relevance of physical sex.
You can stop menstruation using hormonal birth control. There's no need to stop puberty just to stop menstruation. And breast growth must be unpleasant for many even for girls who don't identify as trans, I imagine it would be safer to wear a "sensible" binder than take puberty blockers. And you can have a mastectomy as an adult if that is what you wish.
They sound delusional. I suggest putting them to work in a way that puts them in touch with the material world working with real things
They also aren’t in touch with the societies this affects, how it affects other people, nothing, I guarantee they live with modern sterile white cabinets
Did they attend the conference that they were invited to regarding detrans people?
Right off the bat, you could have spent 25 minutes dissecting the misleading "assigned male" rhetoric. I applaud your restraint, since it allowed even more revealing topics to come to the fore!
Please please please pause and question what someone means when they say assigned at birth. Also pointing to puberty blockers as life saving due to increased Rick of suicide should be challenged. Where is the evidence for this? I love you podcast and the work you are doing generally though with your platform I hope the time has come where you can call people out on their misuse of language and distorted facts.
18:50 wtf bro? Diabetes is a physical health issue, it can easily be diagnosed, it's well understood, and there are good treatments. Treatment for diabetes is to ensure the person's blood sugar gets back in normal ranges, and that's what they do, the effects of this treatment can easily be measured. Mood, outlook on life, mental health are NOT part of what diabetes medication treat. Why are you talking about a physical health issue when the issue is a MENTAL health issue that you guys decided needs a physical treatment!? Medical transition is given to people to relieve mental distress, depression, anxiety etc IF these mental issues can somehow be attributed to "gender incongruence". There is nothing wrong with the body. Then you need to look at the mental health of someone to see whether this "treatment" "works". If someone who transitioned to relieve mental health issues is still struggling a lot with their mental health despite years of medical transition, then you should seriously consider that your "treatment" failed
It's frustrating to hear these researchers talk about "nonbinary" and "queer" teens and how they know what it means. NOBODY knows what it means. It just means you're a teen who feels different. So...95% of teens, then.
I bet they are going along with the NB and queer BS because A: they want more patients, and B: if they deny NB exists, they will have to also see that trans is BS, and that means they'd quit these jobs and have to realise how much they hurt children and young people by transing them.
I agree with many opinions here. But from the start I wouldn't have even considered a study like this where the sponsor ( of the long term study), is the company that sells " puberty blockers"!! I wouldn't even read, or I would check every data suspecting the study. I can't trust this study. And why can't other studies be conducted independently, the repeatedly afirrm they are the only ones in the world. Shame on us if we have not pushed for our own studies, doing them in they should be done, randomized, etc. , Enough numbers... Who's given doctors permission to do this without enough evidence?
They said very little about sexual orientation as differentiated from gender presentation.
This is cultural Marxism. When society failed to evolve as Marx predicted people like Georg Luckac and Antonio Gramsci became obsessed with formulating a reason for this (other than Marx was wrong).
The idea of False Consciousness turned the tables away from the "oppressors" onto the "oppressed".
This reframed Marx's predictions not as a failure of Marx but a failure of the people who should be revolting.
This was put down to the stultifying numbing effects of a comfortable life - bought to them through capitalism.
Today the emphasis is upon waking up people's true consciousness.
The awakening (according to Marxist pedagog Paulo Fereir) begins with exposing and being critical of the norms of the broader society.
This cynical culture of blame gives rise to the idea a person's 'true' self is denied them (Freudian Marxism).
Consequently, the therapist must look to the oppressed to reveal their true state, stripped of the oppressive cultural baggage placed upon them to conform.
Truely a very very cynical theory of reality, it focusses on dismantling social norms, that is, our common values, to bring about Liberation (capital L).
This was a hard listen for me, they are defending this protocol which is flawed in to many ways and they know it. They are to smart to not know it. Terrible
Why do you all associate with one of the people responsible for what we’re seeing now? I just don’t get it. I can see through her; why can’t you?
What do you mean by "associate"? Have you listened to the interview?
They spoke to them so we could hear them grasp at straws trying to justify what they're responsible for. That's not associating that is a service to all of us. I may have been throwing things at my innocent phone but it wasn't at Stella & Sasha.
@@widerlenspod This series you are presenting to us is sometimes challenging to listen to. However, I am so grateful that you are widening the understanding of the original practices and research which have in part brought us to the point we are at in this moment. It takes courage to put this information out for the public to examine. As Maya Angelo said:” When we know better, we can do better.” My views have gone through multiple transformations as new voices were brought to my attention. Thank you for this critically important interview. Please keep up this essential work.
@@widerlenspod just that you’ve posted articles from Edwards-Leeper, who trained directly under Cohen-Kettenis, and was also a founding member of GeMS in 2007, which was the first pediatric gender clinic in America. She continues to assess children, within one session, and pass them along to endocrinologists and surgeons. Genspect shares her tweets occasionally, as does Aaron K. Was a pediatric Gender clinic necessary in 2007? Was it something Americans were really looking for? I completely understand why you talk to the Doctors from Canada, but Edwards-Leeper is different. It seems as though she wants to appear as cautious, but she doesn’t advocate for exploratory therapy, or at least doesn’t believe in it enough to practice it. I think what Genspect does is wonderful, and I have so much admiration for all who are working so hard on this. If she had some sort of “crisis of faith”, and realized she made a huge mistake by working to bring the Dutch protocol to America, then I can’t understand why she hasn’t at least changed the way she works with gender confused children. It’s not possible to even try to get to the root of a teenager’s problems when you only talk to them for four hours, in one session. It can take months, even years, for a young person to feel comfortable enough with their therapist to divulge information they’ve never told anyone. I understand she’s in Oregon, but if she truly understood how dangerous it is to not just affirm only(“affirm” or “affirmative” is mentioned more times than I can count on her website), but to do such a brief assessment, then how can she continue to do it, in good conscience? There is so much at stake. Within the next five years, the market predicts more young women will be having SRS than young men. Phalloplasty is really not something that can be improved upon. I promise, I’m not on the side of the people(or person) who has been so horrible to you, Genspect parents, and their children, over the last few months. Im just trying to understand why you all would want anything to do with Edwards-Leeper, considering how easy it is to find out about her background. And the Dutch protocol was never meant for females, but at this point in time, I can only imagine the majority of children being put on puberty blockers at age 12-14 are females, not males. So it doesn’t even make sense that she ever would have genuinely believed it was a good idea to try on girls.
The language the Dutch are using is clearly biased and not objective. "Finding out" you're on the wrong developmental pathway. You don't find out. You have a condition, perhaps, and you figure out how to deal with it. But it's very, very rarely the "wrong" pathway.
These people are dangerous quacks. Not you and Sasha
A lot of these comments project American, Canadian, and British perspective on the Dutch protocol.
Do these people think that the Netherlands treats gender dysphoria as a political problem like the UK, the States, and Canada do ?
While I agree that most people who call themselves gender critical refuse to acknowledge that there does exist a very small group of teenagers for whom medical transition is probably the best option, the Dutch protocol was doomed to be a disaster. Don’t mess with puberty. The male bodied people who benefit from transition are also capable of completing puberty and then transitioning, and passing well. Everything about a 12 year old boy is more similar to a 10 year old than a 16 or 17 year old. Peenis size? Check! Prostate size/function? Check! Emotional/social maturity? Check! Ability to pair bond? Check! Take away their puberty and you take away what little chance they have of forming long term relationships(the desire for which is supposedly the key driver in transitioning) with straight men. And while the Dutch protocol never should have existed to begin with, I think it’s understandable that people in other countries don’t really grasp what the intention was, when most children being put on GnRH analogues now are female.
However the Netherlands ‘treats’ gender dysphoria, political or not, the method is a disaster for most children.