Let me give you a 300IQ take, starship troopers is a simple story about two species that hate each other and have a hell of a time beating the shit out of one another
"The moral response to aliens crossing your border is not to nuke Mexico City." Ooof. Dont let Netanyahu hear that. He might respond by calling you a Nazi.
Those muzzlemen losers literally went out of their way to attack people who were just attending a concert. Not IDF bases, not people who a could actually shoot back at them if they weren't caught with their pants down, literally Taylor Swift fans. A little different than Jorge looking to mooch parasitically.
I think the big problem is that the 20th and 21st century western mind forces everything to be “left” or “right” (use other terms as necessary) to define the political spectrum, and each phase of evolution/regression is X, Y, or Z. That in mind, starship troopers as a book or movie melts people’s brains because that can’t say it’s Hugo boss or the people’s textile mill 43
Well said. The best thing about Heinlein's novel, perhaps, is that it depicted a culture distant enough from anything in reality that simple labels can't be applied to it yet similar enough to make people uncomfortable in different ways for different reasons.
Can we all just admit this is all Beerhoven's fault? Big Wig Hollyweird director whose bank account is like the death count of his crummy politics ADMITTED he couldn't get past the second chapter before making his conclusions and decided to try and do a botched hit job that backfired so much the Federation is unironically still better than his crummy politics.
I mean ultimately the movie portrays the war in a totally different way than Heinlein had originally intended. Though he never clearly advocated for the militaristic world government found in Starship Troopers, he never disavowed it, to my knowledge. And because of this, people commonly conflate the bugs to the concept of the “massive Chinese communist hoards” that he was very much not a fan of after the Korean War. Again, I think this is in the realm of speculation. Heinlein seemed to advocate for a system where only veterans could vote, and that very system has been out of vogue for a long time. So the movie, whether or not in-universe, criticizes that government as faschistic. I honestly like both the books and the movie, for different reasons.
@@LittkeTM I just checked “HandbookGermany” and they made no mention of that. Only that you must be a citizen, and they haven’t even had conscription for a while.
fascism isn't when military. fascism require complete subjugation to the state. which never happened in startship trooper(not even in the movie). starship tropper is more akin to extreme liberalism and an ideal democracy (evryone indipendetly of race gender mental or physical capabilities is free to consprict and gain the right to vote) with complete freedom to individuals. there is absolutely nothing fascistic about starship troopers.
@@LittkeTM I just checked, and that doesn’t seem like policy in Germany; any adult can vote and they haven’t had conscription in years. Are you saying it’s a popular position there?
I think this movie is an attempt to force an "all war movies are anti war" perspective on the audience. Any anti war/authoritarianism/violence movie whether satirical (E.g. Jojo Rabbit) or super serious (All quiet on the western front) uses some sort of contrast to drive home the point. Innocent kid hurt by war. Young man who gets drafted. Civilians murdered in cold blood. There's always a good guy/bad guy. The St. Chamond tank scene is by itself cool (warhammer kinda way) despite everything else about the war being horrible. We know the allies (good guys) won. The allies kill the Nazis in Jojo Rabbit. Both sides uses extreme violence, difference is good/bad. What Verhoeven did was make an "anti fascist" movie without this contrast. There is no good guy, none of it is real, it's all a propaganda film by the fasicst federation. The problem is that's basically fanfiction. You can't have fictional propaganda without a fictional sincere universe. Most people consume fiction to be immersed, not to perform an english class analysis from a real wolrd perspective. How was it supposed to work without this contrast? Apparently the events and characters are so over the top that they can't be anything but caricatures. Thing is, to many of us, patriotic sci fi world government vs ugly aliens is very normal fiction. So is kids playing "Army" and being interested in guns. It only feels satirical to leftists the same way a movie about going hiking in the woods only feels like horror to a severely agoriphobic person.
That is not what happened, it was launched intentionally at Earth, and there were far more meteors that came afterwards that can't be explained away as a "false flag" or "slight nudge". The meteors became such an issue a space system had to be built to fend the meteor barrage off.
That is not what starshiptroopers is. That's the same brain dead milk iq take that warhammer is a parody of fascism. Its not. The film was made by a guy called Paul verhoven who hated anything right of chairmen Mao. He also did the robocop series and was a commentary about Ronald Regan being a fascist. He hated heinlines book where they were portrayed as the good guys in the conflict and that it had a pro military sentiment. Being pro federation military isn't fascism because it isn't a fascist government. In short Paul lost an intellectual argument with a guy that died in the 60s.
@mortgaming2060 no it wasn't. It is only related to the book in name only. The original verhoven script was called "bug hunt at outpost 9". Execs was like "it has bugs in it like a book I know. Let's call it starship troopers change some names and I'll give you financing and we'll make more money". Verhoven says yes and doesn't read the book at all. He even admits as much.
@@KeithNeilsonand the book isn't a satire of fascism. It's a collection of philosophical essays with a sci-fi war as a back drop. Heinlein just thinking out loud sort to speak. I wouldn't say he was satirizing anything in his book.
Fascism, to me, is when somebody, be it a group or person engages in Fascism in either a political, philosophical, or spiritual way. Fascism. to be more specific, is to me an authoritative political militaristic, or cultural movement led by a totalitarian or dictatorial leader. Ones that values these things above all else; the State, and control, pride, and the people. But each in a specific way. -In Fascism the State is above all else. There is no God there is the State, their is no greater good, there is the state. You don’t exist to better yourself, you exist to serve the state. Sounds like communism actually. -In fascism control is everything. In this sense control is more than power, it’s responsibility, or at least the belief of responsibility. The responsibility to the state and the people. Unlike the left or communists, fascist know and accept that with power comes responsibility. If you want power you must either want or at least accept responsibility. This is a a where the military often comes in. Because they are power incarnate. So the military gets glorified. -In fascism pride means a lot. Pride is the state, but also pride in oneself, pride in your nation, pride in your culture, pride in your people, etc. This is why nationalism is a big part of fascist regimes. -In Fascism, the people are valued. On paper this means the citizens but after pulling back the layers, it goes deeper than that. It encompasses all things involved with the people. Identity, history, nationality, ethnicity, culture, and creed. Just to name a few. It emphasizes the State’s people and vilifies the people not part of the state. A primal “us vs them” mentality. This is also is why the Hitler Youth was created. Hitler himself said the if you control the youth you control the future. And it’s probably the only thing he said that was bull crap but absolute truth. Same as to why Stalin made the Soviet Union’s people loyalty be Stalin First, family Second. By controlling the children the people would forever be in their control. Similar to what the left do now with woke teachers or colleges teaching what to think not how to think. Or how Hitler blame Jews for everything, or the entirety of the Cold War. This is what fascism is *on paper.* In practice these aspects are brought to the worst, most extreme level possible. It seems weird a thing like fascism to be tied to or have aspects more left leaning than right leaning but it makes sense. Mussolini, the father of fascism, was ousted from the Italian socialist party for being to extreme. It’s one of the things that made him create fascism in the first place. The full name of the Nazi party was the National Socialist Party. And that is neither an accident or coincidence. If you took a liberal from the 1930s or 40s, 70-80 years ago, or from 50 years ago in the 70s, or even the 90s, 30 years ago, and compared them the liberals of 2024, the old liberals would look more like conservatives than liberals. I’ve seen this with my parents and grandparents generations, this is a actual thing.
Hm... Could not God not be involved? I would say the biblical and probably Islamic god would be at least close to fascist. God/Jesus being the Hilter or Starlin to the kingdom of god if you will. Although my grasp of fascism is not very good to be fair, so what do I know?
(only watched the movie here). I don't think it's fascist or communist. It's not totally opressive but it's not totally libertarian either. The Earth Federation is just... The Earth Federation. Is this the best form of government? It's not it have it's flaws. But does it helped humanity to stand a chance against the aliens, yep. So let it be.
but of course it is The movie even has a division of guys dressed as the SS (the psychics) but the thing is that the movie is satire propaganda For God's sake it's from the same director as Robocop what did you expect I can't talk about the book because I haven't read it, but I've heard that it is taken more seriously than the movie. but damn "the happy ending" of the movie is that the main characters end up together only because the other potential couples who genuinely love them die horribly.
Fascists LOVE parody, and fascists HATE satire, because satire implies critical thought. Is the movie Parody or Satire, where satire shows better alternatives, or satire shows a tragic demise, or satire self-critically exposes its lies/fallacies (within drama), while parody is does none of that, and parody generally significantly worse (than satire) for lacking all of those, because it ends up glorifying something to a point,where an anti-hero-glorification can be understood as genuine heroic epic, even it if is not genuine and clearly absurdly exaggerated. Starship troopers is just tragic enough and lying enough (and exposing its lies like incompetent pro-asian propaganda) to be great satire.
"Fascists LOVE parody, and fascists HATE satire, because satire implies critical thought." This is simply codswallop. D'Annunzio was a poet and Mussolini wrote a number of (admittedly dry as hell) satirical political works like "The Cardinal's Mistress." Fascists used satire and parody like they did for everything else (including seemingly apolitical comedy or the like): as weapons to further their ideology. They disliked critical thought when it was directed against them. As for "incompetent pro-Asian propaganda", what? No version of Starship Troopers was stalwartly "anti-Asian." Even in the original book the bugs were specifically modelled after Soviet and Chinese Communism (and to a lesser extent the WWII Japanese "Right Wing Socialist" Fascists) while Rico was originally a Filipino. And if one seriously wants to argue the literally inhuman, genocidal, fanatically anti-individual fascist bugs of the movie verse and its offshoots are standins for Asians, I.... Don't know what to say but that sounds more like a "You" problem. Verhoeven's movie is cutting satire but it's not as well done as Robocop and if you look closely you can start poking holes in it.
@@ollllj its not even parody for the first 2 besides the salutes and uniforms they basically have no real ties to facias ideology they have televised debates real racists wouldn't allow those
book was inspired by the Reagan administration. Robert Heinlein was a hard-core liberal before that, but the Reagan administration got him really thinking. It's really an attempt at a meritocracy more than anything. It's all around asking not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Of course there are downsides to this. Specifically, for me, it would be way too nationalistic, even if Heinlein didnt intend that, I see that becoming a problem. American nationalism is already too much. I personally think we ought to serve God rather than men or country, but in a future or sci-fi context im not opposed to it.
Limited suffrage isn't a feature of any fascist state if defined as those ones that arose in 30's Europe. There was universal suffrage with rigged results, and no elections but not limited suffrage. There's the early US and other countries where you could only vote if you owned land, Canada tied enfranchisement to military service at one point, and Poland which limited it to the nobility. Roman citizenship could be earned via military service for auxillaries and foederatii at times. Just calling things you don't like fascism is dumb. You can critique the ideas Heinlein presented without dumbing it down to an inaccurate label.
As a Tyranids player, the bugs are the good guys
how many legs did you use to type that?
You two just restored my humanity. Thanks for that. Both comments were funny.
@@AE-wv8jd I can neither confirm nor deny how many pairs of legs
Let me give you a 300IQ take, starship troopers is a simple story about two species that hate each other and have a hell of a time beating the shit out of one another
"The moral response to aliens crossing your border is not to nuke Mexico City."
Ooof. Dont let Netanyahu hear that. He might respond by calling you a Nazi.
Those muzzlemen losers literally went out of their way to attack people who were just attending a concert. Not IDF bases, not people who a could actually shoot back at them if they weren't caught with their pants down, literally Taylor Swift fans. A little different than Jorge looking to mooch parasitically.
I think the big problem is that the 20th and 21st century western mind forces everything to be “left” or “right” (use other terms as necessary) to define the political spectrum, and each phase of evolution/regression is X, Y, or Z.
That in mind, starship troopers as a book or movie melts people’s brains because that can’t say it’s Hugo boss or the people’s textile mill 43
Well said. The best thing about Heinlein's novel, perhaps, is that it depicted a culture distant enough from anything in reality that simple labels can't be applied to it yet similar enough to make people uncomfortable in different ways for different reasons.
Can we all just admit this is all Beerhoven's fault? Big Wig Hollyweird director whose bank account is like the death count of his crummy politics ADMITTED he couldn't get past the second chapter before making his conclusions and decided to try and do a botched hit job that backfired so much the Federation is unironically still better than his crummy politics.
Short answer: No.
Long answer. Hell no.
What’s the medium answer?
@@equitesloricatus6035 So no.
I mean ultimately the movie portrays the war in a totally different way than Heinlein had originally intended. Though he never clearly advocated for the militaristic world government found in Starship Troopers, he never disavowed it, to my knowledge. And because of this, people commonly conflate the bugs to the concept of the “massive Chinese communist hoards” that he was very much not a fan of after the Korean War. Again, I think this is in the realm of speculation. Heinlein seemed to advocate for a system where only veterans could vote, and that very system has been out of vogue for a long time. So the movie, whether or not in-universe, criticizes that government as faschistic. I honestly like both the books and the movie, for different reasons.
It's only out of vogue in the United States. It's a common feature of democratic republics elsewhere, including modern Germany.
@@LittkeTM I just checked “HandbookGermany” and they made no mention of that. Only that you must be a citizen, and they haven’t even had conscription for a while.
fascism isn't when military.
fascism require complete subjugation to the state.
which never happened in startship trooper(not even in the movie).
starship tropper is more akin to extreme liberalism and an ideal democracy (evryone indipendetly of race gender mental or physical capabilities is free to consprict and gain the right to vote)
with complete freedom to individuals.
there is absolutely nothing fascistic about starship troopers.
@@hawoaliahmed6996 🤦♂️
@@LittkeTM I just checked, and that doesn’t seem like policy in Germany; any adult can vote and they haven’t had conscription in years. Are you saying it’s a popular position there?
IQ 200 Take......its a tropey movie about shooting aliens from space, but its cliche and way too dumbed down to be worth discussion.....
I think this movie is an attempt to force an "all war movies are anti war" perspective on the audience. Any anti war/authoritarianism/violence movie whether satirical (E.g. Jojo Rabbit) or super serious (All quiet on the western front) uses some sort of contrast to drive home the point. Innocent kid hurt by war. Young man who gets drafted. Civilians murdered in cold blood. There's always a good guy/bad guy. The St. Chamond tank scene is by itself cool (warhammer kinda way) despite everything else about the war being horrible. We know the allies (good guys) won. The allies kill the Nazis in Jojo Rabbit. Both sides uses extreme violence, difference is good/bad.
What Verhoeven did was make an "anti fascist" movie without this contrast. There is no good guy, none of it is real, it's all a propaganda film by the fasicst federation. The problem is that's basically fanfiction. You can't have fictional propaganda without a fictional sincere universe. Most people consume fiction to be immersed, not to perform an english class analysis from a real wolrd perspective. How was it supposed to work without this contrast? Apparently the events and characters are so over the top that they can't be anything but caricatures.
Thing is, to many of us, patriotic sci fi world government vs ugly aliens is very normal fiction. So is kids playing "Army" and being interested in guns. It only feels satirical to leftists the same way a movie about going hiking in the woods only feels like horror to a severely agoriphobic person.
I still like the theory that the whole war started is cause a rock bumped into their ship while not on course and went to earth
That is not what happened, it was launched intentionally at Earth, and there were far more meteors that came afterwards that can't be explained away as a "false flag" or "slight nudge". The meteors became such an issue a space system had to be built to fend the meteor barrage off.
It is a satire and a depiction of fascism and it's methods , there are no good guys in that movie
The humans are the good guys.
They are litterally us.
That is not what starshiptroopers is. That's the same brain dead milk iq take that warhammer is a parody of fascism. Its not. The film was made by a guy called Paul verhoven who hated anything right of chairmen Mao. He also did the robocop series and was a commentary about Ronald Regan being a fascist. He hated heinlines book where they were portrayed as the good guys in the conflict and that it had a pro military sentiment. Being pro federation military isn't fascism because it isn't a fascist government. In short Paul lost an intellectual argument with a guy that died in the 60s.
@@thegrizzly9740 have you actually watched the movie?
@@AllHailDiskordiasounds like he has, have you read the book?
@@codyayo6158 the book is vastly different from the movie, and i was talking about the Verhoeven movie
One need only view The Politics of Starship Troopers, it is the only body of work one needs in comprehending the book and film.
IQ 200 Take: The federation is fascist and they're the good guys.
What do you think this is? The Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40k?
@@horrorfan117
It's a hegemonic empire, not fascist.
“A Film…” bullshit it’s a fucking book men. One of the greatest
you realize the movie is a satire of the book?
@@mortgaming2060Which itself was a satire of fascism...
The book was more of a critique of the current US military policy than it was satire. The movie was a satire of the book.
@mortgaming2060 no it wasn't. It is only related to the book in name only. The original verhoven script was called "bug hunt at outpost 9". Execs was like "it has bugs in it like a book I know. Let's call it starship troopers change some names and I'll give you financing and we'll make more money". Verhoven says yes and doesn't read the book at all. He even admits as much.
@@KeithNeilsonand the book isn't a satire of fascism. It's a collection of philosophical essays with a sci-fi war as a back drop. Heinlein just thinking out loud sort to speak. I wouldn't say he was satirizing anything in his book.
Fascism, to me, is when somebody, be it a group or person engages in Fascism in either a political, philosophical, or spiritual way. Fascism. to be more specific, is to me an authoritative political militaristic, or cultural movement led by a totalitarian or dictatorial leader. Ones that values these things above all else; the State, and control, pride, and the people. But each in a specific way.
-In Fascism the State is above all else. There is no God there is the State, their is no greater good, there is the state. You don’t exist to better yourself, you exist to serve the state. Sounds like communism actually.
-In fascism control is everything. In this sense control is more than power, it’s responsibility, or at least the belief of responsibility. The responsibility to the state and the people. Unlike the left or communists, fascist know and accept that with power comes responsibility. If you want power you must either want or at least accept responsibility. This is a a where the military often comes in. Because they are power incarnate. So the military gets glorified.
-In fascism pride means a lot. Pride is the state, but also pride in oneself, pride in your nation, pride in your culture, pride in your people, etc. This is why nationalism is a big part of fascist regimes.
-In Fascism, the people are valued. On paper this means the citizens but after pulling back the layers, it goes deeper than that. It encompasses all things involved with the people. Identity, history, nationality, ethnicity, culture, and creed. Just to name a few. It emphasizes the State’s people and vilifies the people not part of the state. A primal “us vs them” mentality. This is also is why the Hitler Youth was created. Hitler himself said the if you control the youth you control the future. And it’s probably the only thing he said that was bull crap but absolute truth. Same as to why Stalin made the Soviet Union’s people loyalty be Stalin First, family Second. By controlling the children the people would forever be in their control. Similar to what the left do now with woke teachers or colleges teaching what to think not how to think. Or how Hitler blame Jews for everything, or the entirety of the Cold War.
This is what fascism is *on paper.* In practice these aspects are brought to the worst, most extreme level possible.
It seems weird a thing like fascism to be tied to or have aspects more left leaning than right leaning but it makes sense. Mussolini, the father of fascism, was ousted from the Italian socialist party for being to extreme. It’s one of the things that made him create fascism in the first place. The full name of the Nazi party was the National Socialist Party. And that is neither an accident or coincidence. If you took a liberal from the 1930s or 40s, 70-80 years ago, or from 50 years ago in the 70s, or even the 90s, 30 years ago, and compared them the liberals of 2024, the old liberals would look more like conservatives than liberals. I’ve seen this with my parents and grandparents generations, this is a actual thing.
Hm... Could not God not be involved? I would say the biblical and probably Islamic god would be at least close to fascist. God/Jesus being the Hilter or Starlin to the kingdom of god if you will. Although my grasp of fascism is not very good to be fair, so what do I know?
(only watched the movie here).
I don't think it's fascist or communist. It's not totally opressive but it's not totally libertarian either. The Earth Federation is just... The Earth Federation. Is this the best form of government? It's not it have it's flaws. But does it helped humanity to stand a chance against the aliens, yep. So let it be.
but of course it is
The movie even has a division of guys dressed as the SS (the psychics)
but the thing is that the movie is satire propaganda
For God's sake it's from the same director as Robocop
what did you expect
I can't talk about the book because I haven't read it, but I've heard that it is taken more seriously than the movie.
but damn "the happy ending" of the movie is that the main characters end up together only because the other potential couples who genuinely love them die horribly.
I always thought it was just a good silly action film
In the end, this might be the IQ 1000 take.
The last take was quite… Unexpected.
And why are you trying to assign IQ to those who express takes?
To be funny.
Fascists LOVE parody, and fascists HATE satire, because satire implies critical thought.
Is the movie Parody or Satire, where satire shows better alternatives, or satire shows a tragic demise, or satire self-critically exposes its lies/fallacies (within drama), while parody is does none of that, and parody generally significantly worse (than satire) for lacking all of those, because it ends up glorifying something to a point,where an anti-hero-glorification can be understood as genuine heroic epic, even it if is not genuine and clearly absurdly exaggerated.
Starship troopers is just tragic enough and lying enough (and exposing its lies like incompetent pro-asian propaganda) to be great satire.
"Fascists LOVE parody, and fascists HATE satire, because satire implies critical thought."
This is simply codswallop. D'Annunzio was a poet and Mussolini wrote a number of (admittedly dry as hell) satirical political works like "The Cardinal's Mistress." Fascists used satire and parody like they did for everything else (including seemingly apolitical comedy or the like): as weapons to further their ideology. They disliked critical thought when it was directed against them.
As for "incompetent pro-Asian propaganda", what? No version of Starship Troopers was stalwartly "anti-Asian." Even in the original book the bugs were specifically modelled after Soviet and Chinese Communism (and to a lesser extent the WWII Japanese "Right Wing Socialist" Fascists) while Rico was originally a Filipino. And if one seriously wants to argue the literally inhuman, genocidal, fanatically anti-individual fascist bugs of the movie verse and its offshoots are standins for Asians, I.... Don't know what to say but that sounds more like a "You" problem.
Verhoeven's movie is cutting satire but it's not as well done as Robocop and if you look closely you can start poking holes in it.
Book. Almost the furthest thing from.
Film. No, but closer than the book.
Helldiver's. Yes.
i get the very same impression that Helldivers is just Parody.
@@ollllj its not even parody for the first 2 besides the salutes and uniforms they basically have no real ties to facias ideology they have televised debates real racists wouldn't allow those
book was inspired by the Reagan administration. Robert Heinlein was a hard-core liberal before that, but the Reagan administration got him really thinking. It's really an attempt at a meritocracy more than anything. It's all around asking not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
Of course there are downsides to this. Specifically, for me, it would be way too nationalistic, even if Heinlein didnt intend that, I see that becoming a problem. American nationalism is already too much. I personally think we ought to serve God rather than men or country, but in a future or sci-fi context im not opposed to it.
What debate? The movie is an antifascist adaptation of a fascist book. In both cases word of god.
This. I’m surprised so many people don’t see it that way.
The book wasn't fascistic, and the movie retained too much of the core story from to book to fascistic as well.
… Yes. Yeah, they are fascist. Pretty cut and dry.
Why comment if you aren't going to watch the video? And don't say you did because he addresses it in the video.
The film portrays a fascist state, yes, does not mean it is itself fascist.
@@LittkeTM I wasn’t addressing any claim, just answering the title of the video. I know that he acknowledges them as Fascist
Fascism is when trenchcoats and eagles
Limited suffrage isn't a feature of any fascist state if defined as those ones that arose in 30's Europe. There was universal suffrage with rigged results, and no elections but not limited suffrage. There's the early US and other countries where you could only vote if you owned land, Canada tied enfranchisement to military service at one point, and Poland which limited it to the nobility. Roman citizenship could be earned via military service for auxillaries and foederatii at times. Just calling things you don't like fascism is dumb.
You can critique the ideas Heinlein presented without dumbing it down to an inaccurate label.