Fascinating and certainly this is a greener process of getting portable energy to remote areas than a diesel generator would be. Thanks for the educational video. I greatly enjoyed it.
Reformed hydrgen from natural gas, compressed and cooled with lots of electricity, transported to a distribution facility by diesel truck then hauled to site by fossil pickup - what's not to love? But sooo cool.
Love the picture of the Chevy Volt battery on the hydrotec unit. I wonder if they just transplanted a volt battery into that unit, the gen2 volt is almost 20kWh raw capacity.
One thing I would like to hear is their take on using these indoors. Theoretically, these can be operated indoors where a diesel generator cannot, but I'd love to hear what other safety considerations there might be.
50,000 hydrogen forklifts are currently operating indoors in the USA warehouses. Generally, the hydrogen supply is outdoors, so running this hydrogen generator indoors fueled by an outdoor hydrogen supply is, if anything, safer than running a forklift that has hydrogen stored onboard. Interesting point - charging lead acid batteries gives off hydrogen so battery rooms already have hydrogen sensors wired to exhaust fans if there isn't already sufficient ventilation, so handling hydrogen is not a new issue for warehouses.
One thing to remember is that yeah it’s 3.5mwh of storage but you lose about 40% of it going through the fuel cell for the charger. So it’s really 2.1mwh. Tesla had a mobile power pack on a trailer with chargers that was 3mwh and I believe Porsche used a similar setup for there press event. They could have easily brought something like that to a nearby fast charger at night and charged it up for the next days press event.
You're assuming that you always have access to the grid and the grid will always be sufficient. When he said government, think Department of Defense and FEMA.
The cost of producing hydrogen will come down over time, and the ability to make it more cleanly will increase as well. Having something like this that is reasonably quiet (compared to diesel) and not smelly with emissions that won't kill you, makes this an attractive option for this use case. Great Video!
Compared to all the resources needed to get gas/diesel to a gas station? Charging from the grid is more efficient than having tankers deliver to a station even if diesel is the source of power because the delivery of diesel is one location not thousands of smaller gas stations.
We used petrol Engine with 25% efficiency to move around for more than a Century. When renewables reach a certain level we will have so much excess energy, that it doesn't matter if we lose some in conversion if in Exchange we can store as hydrogen.
Thanks Kyle for the interesting tour of the H2 to EV charging station. Why did the GM guy have to greenwash this? 3:12 ".. fuel cells are one of the only mainstream technologies that are *zero* emissions..." I guess he couldn't say, "Yeah we all know fuel cells have terrible efficiency, and 99% of the H2 we get is from dirty generation, but given the limitations of this temporary remote charging situation, this is the best we can do for now."
Notice the key word that was used, fuel cells. The GM guy did not talk about how the hydrogen production process, and the feedstock that goes into it. Kinda shady if you ask me
LFP or better yet Na would seem good for that buffer battery. And this also seems a much better way of using fuel cell and H2 tech than putting them straight into cars. At least in the short term.
SOFC (solid oxide fuel cells) are certainly another alternative for high energy density storage, but the biggest issue is power density. For anything mobile, I think HFC is the better option. For stationary applications such as fuel cell stacks hooked up to a gas line, the SOFC running off of LP or NG would probably be a better option. Especially if the waste heat can be scavenged and there is no use for the potable water that HFC release. Ceres Power has a solution that includes a home electricity generator + water heater that hooks up directly to the home's gas line.
One proposal I’ve seen is a factory built small modular reactor installed near major interstates. The SMR boils water to make steam. The high temperature steam powers a turbine that produces electricity. The steam exhaust, still at high temperature, about 600 C, is fed into a high temperature steam electrolyzer to make hydrogen. The hydrogen generation process (red hydrogen) is about 30% more efficient that room temperature electrolysis.
Hopefully not. Actually a dumb idea. Its literally better to just use natural gas. Like literally worse for the environment than using fossil fuels directly and WAY more expensive.
@@ultrastoat3298 I'm really surprised how people don't know how expensive , wasteful , and terrible it is. The production process has not improved in 50 years and shows no signs of changing . It would be a disaster if it gains popularity . Its far worse than the gripes about oil companies . The "Green hydrogen " hoax requires 100 wind turbines to be replaced with 400 .
@@carholic-sz3qv it’s so easy and fun because hydrogen is so dumb. Use cases for hydrogen are super narrow and yet you’ve got actual con artists (some are felons now 😉) out there promoting it and duping investors and tax payers. At bear minimum, hydrogen is a colossal waste of energy, and will need to be permanently subsidized. So there better be a good reason to subsidize it and a better solution must not already exist. Almost everyone investing in hydrogen today is going to lose their ass on that investment 😂, and it’s continually being proven over and over and over again.
This is great technology, and yes mixing the two energy sources together makes a lot of sense for things like this. I am all for using the most appropriate energy source for the situation, as he said batteries are weight, so makes more sense to generate electricity this way, same for over the road trucks that do long haul, until the battery packs can do a full day drive, then hydrogen for now would make more sense for load capacity and distance driving. Around town and smaller vehicles yes battery is fine. If you take like where I am here in Canada, once you get out of the built up areas, electric vehicles are useless, as no infrastructure to fast charge.
The trailer is just another tube trailer that you see on the road hauling high pressure gas. The end result is may be zero emissions, but the hydrogen gas was likely made from natural gas plant with all of the associated emissions. This is a feel good sleight of hand. I get the military need for remote power generation, but typically the military are not interested in efficiency but more about function.
The advantage of hydrogen is it has 5 times the energy of diesel per pound, but some of that is lost with the heavy steel to hold hold 7000psi. Certainly not as efficient as directly charging an EV from the grid, this PEM fuel cell set up does have some niche use cases for potentially clean portable power.
The problem of hydrogen is the extremely poor volumetric density, at 700bar compensating for efficiency (diesel 30% HFC 60%) hydrogen takes up twice the volume. Also the storage vessels are extremely heavy compared to diesel.
It is not that heavy lol!!! It's mostly carbon fiber reinforced and in the video he even said the trailer is significantly lighter than if it was full with batteries.
Very informative video. I have been looking into remote charging systems for EV's myself to evaluate its business opportunity. This hydrogen solution makes a lot of sense. Two things I am missing from your video is cost per Kwh for the EV (should cover investment and cost of Hydrogen) and regulatory issues. Transporting Hydrogen on the roads is regulated differently around the world. The benefits are clear, fast charging in locations that cannot provide it from the grid.
The cost of electricity is the cost of hydrogen plus the amortized cost of the truck plus the amortized cost of the hydrogen trailer plus the amortized cost of the generator plus the cost of the driver(s). The cost per kwh drops the more the equipment is used. This equipment will never be used enough to yield a reasonable cost per kwh but for GM, it is also a beta test for the equipment as well as a sales demonstration. It will be several years before a setup like this can come close to being financially competitive with an of the shelf diesel generator.
Voltage looks to be about right as well. Pack voltage at 100% on a Gen 2 Volt should be like 385-390v, 344 should be about right if it's at a lower state of charge?
All of you are correct that Hydrogen does not make sense right now, but green hydrogen is coming. This is a great way to get high power DC to remote rural locations.
Sounds like something Caterpillar, Bobcat, Volvo, John Deere should be making for remote industrial construction sites. Again cost a the big factor. Whats the r.o.i.?
I'm interested to see dependability at all temperature extremes. Will the Hydrogen system work at -40°F? How about 120°F? How much efficiency do you lose at the extremes?
Kyle, why don't you talk about how hydrogen is more than $25 per kg right now? That is 4 times the cost of a conventional diesel generator for the same amount of energy output.
That's for h2 at a car filling station. To power this they're getting bulk h2 gas from an industrial gas supplier. It's probably still more expensive then running a diesel generator but much less than you pay for h2 at a filling station. The big trailer isn't part of the hydrotec system, its what the h2 supplier brought them to deliver the product.
What happens if one of those ruptured? Will it propagate to surrounding tanks? In the event of accident what would response look like. I think it could make sense for a solution in remote locations.
The hydrogen will be miles up long before any response arrives. Think about how quickly a helium balloon goes up when you let it go. Hydrogen is lighter than helium and it wouldn't have the weight of the balloon slowing it down.
This doesn't make any sense. The hydrogen comes from natural gas. It's cheaper and cleaner to just use a natural gas generator. This is for use in temporary applications so there is no reason to greenwash them. For any permanent application you would just run a power line.
Right, so get a nat gas generator for temp charging solutions. Don't quadruple the inefficiency by adding hydrogen generation and a hydrogen fuel cell.
No it's not, the energy content in the end use is lower than the point of production. Meaning using a natural gas generator, which releases NOx and particulate matter while being even more inefficient than a fuel cell, would increase net emissions even if the hydrogen is reformed from nat gas.
@@visceral_investing even if that's true, you're still looking at the world's most expensive way to make power from natural gas by an order of magnitude. The cost of the fuel cell is insane. The mttf of the fuel cell is terrible. And there's no industry pushing improvements - certainly not like the cell phone industry pushed li ion. Hydrogen has multiple REVOLUTIONARY hurdles to overcome. And hydrogen is chasing a moving, ever-improving target. Hydrogen never had a chance before li ion came along. It has even less of a chance of ever becoming useful now.
Gray Hydrogen doesnt make financial sense let alone the efficiency losses of using solar, wind, hydro etc (renewables) to create clean green Hydrogen. Doesnt make sense not to jut concentrate on direct use of renewables and put money into creating better direct storage solutions. Hydrogen sounds good in theory but its not really even close to being financially viable for joe average to use.
Just fill a shipping container with batteries and fit a couple charging stations to it. Could easily fit 2 MWh of batteries which is a about the same as the capacity of this one including losses in the fuel cells.
Thanks for showing us the current state of hydrogen technology. And I must say, I’m very impressed with the technical knowledge of your audience in knowing the current critical downsides of producing and using hydrogen. Nothing gets past them. 😂
Very cool review. It's definitely an excellent option for clean remote charging applications. On a separate note, when are you planning to do a Cadillac Lyric review as I would appreciate your unbiased perspective?
Thanks for covering new topics related to EVs. Too bad the cost of this set-up is so far out of line with alternatives such that it most likely will never be put to practical use. I note that no mention of cost per kilo-Watt hour is mentioned.
@@brushlessmotoring In addition to being 20x more expensive than charging at home , it also uses 4x more energy. It would much better to use a propane generator.
@@jasavak yup. See my other posts and replies. No disagreement here. Porsche's 2.1MWh battery trailer with 10 DC 350kW chargers probably more what this sort of day needs, one truck an hour is not really useful for a press day of EV driving.
@@brushlessmotoring Ironically , its hard to find anything worse than using hydrogen extracted from NG . Using moonshine would be a better solution . Toyota has been promoting the hydrogen hoax for years to scare people from buying BEV's to protect their hybrid sales . Most people still believe the hoax.
What does it cost money wise and environmentally to fill how and much energy is required to fill that trailer with hydrogen and how many of those trucks can that trailer fill on a charge and how long do the tanks take to fill?
3.5 MW is only enough for about 35 or 50 charging sessions, but paired up with a lower demand grid connection there may be a valid use case for this, for both high demand and remote locations.
@@patriot2314 The logistics in transporting H2 is what I was referencing, and the cost of supporting that transport. 50 sessions will last maybe 3 days in various high use locations, maybe less with some of the massive Installations Tesla has pushed.
@@wzDH106 its not for charging vehicles on the side of the highway..that will be done by superchargers connected to the grid..this is more for work sites that are far from superchargers that would be too expensive to put a dc..think of farmers who might use electric tractors fastcharger..or those building infrastructure in the middle of nowhere..and the logostics arent that off..a single semi could carry two or three of those..which would be enough for a week or two even at a busy sight
@@patriot2314 If they can ever figure out logistics it may be possible. But the costs associated will continue to remain higher compared to a grid connection. A hybrid approach, as mentioned above, may keep costs in check with lower demand grid connections. As it stands right now, it'll take about double the electricity to charge a battery using the H2 loop (creating H2 + creating electricity via the fuel cells) as opposed to charging from the grid direct. Another hybrid setup could include a limited grid connection, or on site renewable generation, backed up with a small battery bank then supplemented with H2 for high demand use cases..... assuming the Hydrogen doesn't escape over the course of the storage.
Tesla or BYD should have a larger BESS for homes by now where a car can DC charge from it. Tesla's Powerwall should also see double or more capacity considering that more people have at least two of it per home installation
Voltage looks to be about right as well. Pack voltage at 100% on a Gen 2 Volt should be like 385-390v, 344 should be about right if it's at a lower state of charge?
In most cases where you have access to the grid (even if it’s a smaller connection), you’ll be better off with batteries hooked up to a DCFC. This may make more sense after natural disaster and/or when the grid is completely down in the area.
You need power to make or use hydrogen, if there is no grid its the same as a battery... but the battery can be easily charged with PV while you need way more power to make hydrogen (and you still can't make it yourself.. but you can charge your own battery with solar...) This is way too expensive and inefficient like every use of hydrogen in small appliances.
While there are situations where this would be of use (ex: right after a natural disaster where there's no electricity), I think in 90% of situations, a regular DCFC with a big battery and a smaller electrical grid connection would work just as well if not better. Even if you can only get 50-100 amp service (at 240volts) type of grid connection, let that continuously charge the DCFC battery combo, then it can charge cars via DCFC from the internal battery. That way it'll continuously recharge, where hydrogen you'll periodically have to swap out your hydrogen trailer.
I agree with you, however, it can be an absolute nightmare to get a new utility connection - especially if it will only be temporary. The main holdup with installing DC fast chargers today is the permitting and connection to the local power utility. These trailers would work great for any temporary situation that doesn't last more than a month or two.
Cool, I like it is quiet. If we can get to a point where H2 production is less CO2 (green Hydrogen) this is ideal. I wonder what it is going to take to scale green H2 production and distribution? Does gray hydrogen produce less CO2 than using diesel or gas? I hope so or this is pointless until we get to green or blue hydrogen production.
If hydrogen delivery and filling is easier for these fuel cell devices, I think these could be the fuel station for EV in the short term to take presser off the grid.
@@timogronroos4642 Wow you are right. That would be used up in a day then they would have to travel to the nearest refill location and fuel up every day!!!
Running back and forth to fill up with hydrogen is the same as running back and forth to fill with gas. Wouldn’t a solar and battery setup make more sense? Make power where you are instead of going to get the fuel to make the power where you are.
How small could you make this? Would this be feasible as a range extender? Could it be fit into a solution that is small enough to put on a tongue box or maybe smaller than a toolbox that you would put in the bed of a truck?
Since hydrogen cars exist, I'm guessing what you're saying is possible from a technical standpoint. But, I highly doubt it would make sense economically; if you really want a range extender, a diesel solution would be much cheaper, even though it would pollute more.
@@ab-tf5fl you’re probably right. Are diesel generators more energy dense than regular gas? I run a business and actually I have the predecessor to this truck. The Chevy avalanche my hope would be that 99% of the time I never have to use gas at all. But on the few times that I do need to call greater distance or tow upgrade distance simply don’t have charging option wherever we are camping or working. That I would have back up plan. I’m curious what the smallest and quietest but also most powerful option would be. By the way, I have both accounts, but on this account is where I do videos on my Chevy avalanche.
@@cyclopsvision6370 Ah you are correct, sorry, I had the wrong units, metric... About 2.2lbs of hydrogen! 😁 The last I saw it was $29 in CA. But either way it is very expensive for just less energy content than a gallon of gas, and quite a bit lower than a gallon of #2 diesel. So for all practical use for the average consumer it doesn't work out, and considering the lack of places you can purchase it from, at least right now it is not practical at all. However if you are Chevy, then its fine, because its just a statement for recharging EV's with gray hydrogen and it's not something people would have to do. I guess we can ask Toyota and see the spectacular global sales of the Mirai! 👍
@@justinfowler2857 I know it was a bit of sarcasm there. With only what about 50-60 filling stations in a few metro areas it doesn’t surprise me. I mean they are giving three years of free hydrogen away with each one. 👍
Hydrogen is definitely more expensive than diesel, both in terms of fuel cost and equipment cost. In exchange for the extra cost, you shift the pollution to somewhere where where the event goers don't need to listen to it or breathe it (which still has some value, even if the greenhouse gas impacts are the same). Overall, the cost-benefit calculations probably only make sense if the government either provides huge subsidies to the hydrogen solution and/or bans the diesel alternative. And even then, this could be just a temporary stopgap until battery technology catches up.
4:40 Natural gas? You mean just Water. Slipping the H2 from the O and compressing the H2. It's just water they're using, they want you to think it's some more than that, that's why he said "Natural Gas" - LOL
Cool. That needs a small Solar PV array on it, Either set up as a canopy or just ground mount at a job site, To trickle charge that battery up. I know of 540w cigs that's roughly 1m x 2m. Not bad for something that can be rolled up like a yoga mat.
Cool to see it's possible but the $1/kwh they noted in another review in addition to the hydrogen source likely being mostly natural gas I can't help but feel it's all show and not really practical or green yet. If I was a farmer out in nowhere it would make more sense to me to go solar with a big battery rather than messing around with hydrogen. At least then it's actually green and gives you energy independence in rven more silence. Seems like a quick way to power somehwere and fun to see at least.
Neat science experiment, but synthetic fuels would be way more efficient for tasks like remote construction. And I wonder how it would work in a dirty, dusty environment typically found on construction sites (needing clean air for fuel cells).
Really curious about the safety implications of hydrogen tech like this. I can't help but hear pure hydrogen storage and think Hindenburg. I'm sure there's plenty of modern tech to prevent that kind of thing, but I'd love to hear more about it.
The Hindenburg was literally covered in rocket fuel. The silver coating. Also the Hindenburg was gaseous hydrogen. Hydrogen is generally safer than petrol because if it leaks, it floats towards space. Petrol leaks and pools under the vehicle.
This is pretty neat, but unless the hydrogen is made with renewables instead of NG, it doesn't feel much better than a diesel gen with battery buffer in terms of a portable power station. Total weight I suppose but not sure how often that would be a limiting factor for such a niche item as this. By volume, diesel has a lot of energy density even at a 30-40% conversion rate. There could also be a flow battery future for something like this. Energy density is pretty low currently, but if that significantly improves it could be a good way to transport energy. If it's on a trailer, you could have a fold-out solar canopy to help extend its deployment cycle.
Thank you for pulling back the curtain on this process. One question I wished you had asked is: as long as H2 is available, why not just use it as fuel to run a conventional generator or even a small turbine, instead of using a fuel cell stack. If you ever get a similar opportunity to talk to an engineer, please ask that question.
OK for charging EVs. HFCV? Nah :/ Unless it's a ship or something similarly large. And I bet it's not green hydrogen in those bottles. Joe Romm used to say "forget hydrogen, forget hydrogen, forget hydrogen".
Hydrogen is hydrogen, by the time it goes into the tank, nobody will know or care how it was produced, they just pound the table claiming hydrogen fuel cells have no emissions
You didn’t ask him how much hydrogen leaks out at 7000 PSI ! Hydrogen molecules are so small there is “NO” known containers that will hold hydrogen in captivity. The only way to captivate hydrogen is to slow down the molecular movement of the hydrogen molecules thus allowing weak molecular bonds to from between the hydrogen and special metals that are absent a valence electron. This means to keep tanks refrigerated or they could turn into a big ball of fire. The refrigeration adds to the cost of using hydrogen as a fuel source. Hydrogen also is a greenhouse gas the unconsumed hydrogen is considered 10 times worse for our environment than anything gasoline and diesel put into the atmosphere right now. Have you ever watch the refueling of an hydrogen tank there is always venting on unconsumed hydrogen during the connection and reconnection process. The vent seem minimal on first looks, but imagine the entire world venting small amounts. This reminds me of when we stopped putting Freon in hair spray. A little bit can go a long way. Please! Stop promoting the use of hydrogen. Letting big business be responsible for the control of a hydrogen supply system is going to produce another Hindenburg, where all the people of the planet will pay the price. Only the wealthy will be able to afford hydrogen because the rare earth element required to make truly green hydrogen comes from one place on the planet 🌍. The price this element will skyrocket if the world jumps on the green hydrogen band wagon. Solar and wind is much more prolific and cheaper, thus reducing reducing the chance of a monopoly. I could bore you the hundreds reasons hydrogen is bad, by now you have already made up yours minds and stopped reading.
I like the idea portable clean energy Since 99% of hydrogen is currently produced from fossil fuels and the 1% of green hydrogen is 3 to 5 times the price of the fossil fuel hydrogen. Not that I like diesel generators but they would still be cleaner then fossil fuel hydrogen power.
Fascinating and certainly this is a greener process of getting portable energy to remote areas than a diesel generator would be. Thanks for the educational video. I greatly enjoyed it.
I think out of spec needs to borrow one of these for…. 10-15 years 😉
Then you would be able to buy a Toyota Mirai for your collection as well.👍
A cool use case for this could be farming where you could drop this trailer right in the field to DCFC tractors, and combines. Really cool stuff!
Reformed hydrgen from natural gas, compressed and cooled with lots of electricity, transported to a distribution facility by diesel truck then hauled to site by fossil pickup - what's not to love? But sooo cool.
Love the picture of the Chevy Volt battery on the hydrotec unit. I wonder if they just transplanted a volt battery into that unit, the gen2 volt is almost 20kWh raw capacity.
One thing I would like to hear is their take on using these indoors. Theoretically, these can be operated indoors where a diesel generator cannot, but I'd love to hear what other safety considerations there might be.
50,000 hydrogen forklifts are currently operating indoors in the USA warehouses. Generally, the hydrogen supply is outdoors, so running this hydrogen generator indoors fueled by an outdoor hydrogen supply is, if anything, safer than running a forklift that has hydrogen stored onboard. Interesting point - charging lead acid batteries gives off hydrogen so battery rooms already have hydrogen sensors wired to exhaust fans if there isn't already sufficient ventilation, so handling hydrogen is not a new issue for warehouses.
YES! I was saying that this is the _exact_ solution that is needed for EV charging in the US.
One thing to remember is that yeah it’s 3.5mwh of storage but you lose about 40% of it going through the fuel cell for the charger. So it’s really 2.1mwh. Tesla had a mobile power pack on a trailer with chargers that was 3mwh and I believe Porsche used a similar setup for there press event. They could have easily brought something like that to a nearby fast charger at night and charged it up for the next days press event.
You're assuming that you always have access to the grid and the grid will always be sufficient. When he said government, think Department of Defense and FEMA.
Thanks for covering the Hydrotec MPG because it's been largely ignored by the EV media for the last year or so that it's been out.
I could definitely see this as a stationary install with four of these units running off a large hydrogen storage tank
I appreciate this video is in HDR!
The cost of producing hydrogen will come down over time, and the ability to make it more cleanly will increase as well. Having something like this that is reasonably quiet (compared to diesel) and not smelly with emissions that won't kill you, makes this an attractive option for this use case. Great Video!
This seems like a stupendously inefficient way to get from A to B but interesting tech.
Compared to all the resources needed to get gas/diesel to a gas station?
Charging from the grid is more efficient than having tankers deliver to a station even if diesel is the source of power because the delivery of diesel is one location not thousands of smaller gas stations.
We used petrol Engine with 25% efficiency to move around for more than a Century. When renewables reach a certain level we will have so much excess energy, that it doesn't matter if we lose some in conversion if in Exchange we can store as hydrogen.
@@simson4tYes, but it will always remain cumbersome.
I think it’s best application would be in disaster recovery areas or job sites (as a replacement for noisy diesel generators)
agreed. this is stupid. a fixed hydrogen refueling station makes more sense. but hydrogen as a fuel source for cars will be a challenge.
Brilliant. Gives a lot of hope for both hydrogen vehicles and EVs.
Home backup would be great. Hydrogen us the future
Commendably clear description. Impressively functional/ effective.
Thanks Kyle for the interesting tour of the H2 to EV charging station.
Why did the GM guy have to greenwash this? 3:12 ".. fuel cells are one of the only mainstream technologies that are *zero* emissions..."
I guess he couldn't say, "Yeah we all know fuel cells have terrible efficiency, and 99% of the H2 we get is from dirty generation, but given the limitations of this temporary remote charging situation, this is the best we can do for now."
Hydrogen fuel cells are a proven technology, developed more than 20 years ago, but good luck getting hydrogen refills outside of California.
Notice the key word that was used, fuel cells. The GM guy did not
talk about how the hydrogen production process, and the feedstock that goes into it. Kinda shady if you ask me
LFP or better yet Na would seem good for that buffer battery. And this also seems a much better way of using fuel cell and H2 tech than putting them straight into cars. At least in the short term.
SOFC (solid oxide fuel cells) are certainly another alternative for high energy density storage, but the biggest issue is power density. For anything mobile, I think HFC is the better option. For stationary applications such as fuel cell stacks hooked up to a gas line, the SOFC running off of LP or NG would probably be a better option. Especially if the waste heat can be scavenged and there is no use for the potable water that HFC release. Ceres Power has a solution that includes a home electricity generator + water heater that hooks up directly to the home's gas line.
Nothing was ever mentioned of price per KWH for charging the vehicle. How does that compare to a regular DC fast charging system?
TFL asked that and he said about $1 per KWH
@@tomcook8897 Cool ty, must have missed that.
It's pricey, however this is more for niche business uses
One proposal I’ve seen is a factory built small modular reactor installed near major interstates. The SMR boils water to make steam. The high temperature steam powers a turbine that produces electricity. The steam exhaust, still at high temperature, about 600 C, is fed into a high temperature steam electrolyzer to make hydrogen. The hydrogen generation process (red hydrogen) is about 30% more efficient that room temperature electrolysis.
Very cool system. Hopefully they eventually build out a home backup power solution based on this.
Hopefully not. Actually a dumb idea. Its literally better to just use natural gas. Like literally worse for the environment than using fossil fuels directly and WAY more expensive.
@@ultrastoat3298those things actually already exist and they work very well! There are houses in Germany for example with that.
@@ultrastoat3298 why do you always have to talk nonsense about hydrogen!?
@@ultrastoat3298 I'm really surprised how people don't know how expensive , wasteful , and terrible it is. The production process has not improved in 50 years and shows no signs of changing . It would be a disaster if it gains popularity . Its far worse than the gripes about oil companies . The "Green hydrogen " hoax requires 100 wind turbines to be replaced with 400 .
@@carholic-sz3qv it’s so easy and fun because hydrogen is so dumb. Use cases for hydrogen are super narrow and yet you’ve got actual con artists (some are felons now 😉) out there promoting it and duping investors and tax payers. At bear minimum, hydrogen is a colossal waste of energy, and will need to be permanently subsidized. So there better be a good reason to subsidize it and a better solution must not already exist. Almost everyone investing in hydrogen today is going to lose their ass on that investment 😂, and it’s continually being proven over and over and over again.
very cool! I had no idea this was something that was being done....
This is great technology, and yes mixing the two energy sources together makes a lot of sense for things like this. I am all for using the most appropriate energy source for the situation, as he said batteries are weight, so makes more sense to generate electricity this way, same for over the road trucks that do long haul, until the battery packs can do a full day drive, then hydrogen for now would make more sense for load capacity and distance driving. Around town and smaller vehicles yes battery is fine. If you take like where I am here in Canada, once you get out of the built up areas, electric vehicles are useless, as no infrastructure to fast charge.
Sorry that you live in a part of Canada that has no electricity .
The trailer is just another tube trailer that you see on the road hauling high pressure gas. The end result is may be zero emissions, but the hydrogen gas was likely made from natural gas plant with all of the associated emissions. This is a feel good sleight of hand. I get the military need for remote power generation, but typically the military are not interested in efficiency but more about function.
Seconded!
And of course the military could care less about the cost as we all pay for it in the long run anyway, LOL
The advantage of hydrogen is it has 5 times the energy of diesel per pound, but some of that is lost with the heavy steel to hold hold 7000psi. Certainly not as efficient as directly charging an EV from the grid, this PEM fuel cell set up does have some niche use cases for potentially clean portable power.
The problem of hydrogen is the extremely poor volumetric density, at 700bar compensating for efficiency (diesel 30% HFC 60%) hydrogen takes up twice the volume.
Also the storage vessels are extremely heavy compared to diesel.
Paying 7 times the price per energy unit LOL
Hydrogen has 3 times the energy per pound of diesel . However , it uses 4x the amount of electricity to create .
@@jasavak Yes energy density by weight is about 3 times diesel. Thanks for the correction.
It is not that heavy lol!!! It's mostly carbon fiber reinforced and in the video he even said the trailer is significantly lighter than if it was full with batteries.
Great video! I remember hearing about this hydrogen DCFC at another outlet and it was very interesting to see it on film!
Very informative video. I have been looking into remote charging systems for EV's myself to evaluate its business opportunity. This hydrogen solution makes a lot of sense. Two things I am missing from your video is cost per Kwh for the EV (should cover investment and cost of Hydrogen) and regulatory issues. Transporting Hydrogen on the roads is regulated differently around the world. The benefits are clear, fast charging in locations that cannot provide it from the grid.
The cost of electricity is the cost of hydrogen plus the amortized cost of the truck plus the amortized cost of the hydrogen trailer plus the amortized cost of the generator plus the cost of the driver(s). The cost per kwh drops the more the equipment is used. This equipment will never be used enough to yield a reasonable cost per kwh but for GM, it is also a beta test for the equipment as well as a sales demonstration. It will be several years before a setup like this can come close to being financially competitive with an of the shelf diesel generator.
Another good Out of Spec UA-cam.
You asked him if it had an ultium battery. Looking at the graphics, it looks like a Volt battery (T shaped).
Glad to see the return of the circular beard.
Great to see that most comments are skeptical towards hydrogen technology nowadays.
The High voltage battery looked like it was pulled from a GM Volt LOL
Voltage looks to be about right as well. Pack voltage at 100% on a Gen 2 Volt should be like 385-390v, 344 should be about right if it's at a lower state of charge?
Agreed the signature T shape was there on the graphics display
All of you are correct that Hydrogen does not make sense right now, but green hydrogen is coming. This is a great way to get high power DC to remote rural locations.
It’s still wasteful, green or not.
Holy crap! That trailer is a 7000 psi BOMB💣💥
Just like a traffic jam with multiple Toyota Mirai hydrogen cars.
I like how you ask pointed questions and don't fall into the greenwashing BS.
I love the signs that say zero emissions H2. We all know that it’s grey hydrogen. With twice the CO2 emissions than gasoline equivalent.
Based on the picture on the display of this generator and stating it's around 20Kw I wonder if they're using a Chevy Volt battery in there.
The picture on the screen shows what looks like a Volt pack.
Sounds like something Caterpillar, Bobcat, Volvo, John Deere should be making for remote industrial construction sites. Again cost a the big factor. Whats the r.o.i.?
I would love to work with you to build my towable super compact solar array!
Please take note; the hydrogen supplied to this DCFC has embedded carbon emissions of 11-14kg for every kg of hydrogen supplied.
I'm interested to see dependability at all temperature extremes. Will the Hydrogen system work at -40°F? How about 120°F? How much efficiency do you lose at the extremes?
ua-cam.com/video/BXr2kCl8h1E/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/oWBvu56t49E/v-deo.html
It would be nice to have hydrogen portable power generator in future to replace noisy gas generator
Extreme E racing is powered by similar equipment. Interesting 👍
Kyle, why don't you talk about how hydrogen is more than $25 per kg right now? That is 4 times the cost of a conventional diesel generator for the same amount of energy output.
That's for h2 at a car filling station. To power this they're getting bulk h2 gas from an industrial gas supplier. It's probably still more expensive then running a diesel generator but much less than you pay for h2 at a filling station. The big trailer isn't part of the hydrotec system, its what the h2 supplier brought them to deliver the product.
Seems like a good idea,but its huge,and I'm guessing expensive as hell let alone the cost of hydrogen in general
What happens if one of those ruptured? Will it propagate to surrounding tanks? In the event of accident what would response look like. I think it could make sense for a solution in remote locations.
in the event of an accident, it's just hydrogen, it can just disappear into the air harmlessly
@@cyclopsvision6370, only if it does not get ignited...
@@michaels3003 The flames will be far over your head.
The hydrogen will be miles up long before any response arrives. Think about how quickly a helium balloon goes up when you let it go. Hydrogen is lighter than helium and it wouldn't have the weight of the balloon slowing it down.
This doesn't make any sense. The hydrogen comes from natural gas. It's cheaper and cleaner to just use a natural gas generator. This is for use in temporary applications so there is no reason to greenwash them. For any permanent application you would just run a power line.
Yes this is mainly for temporary charging or other energy needs locations
💯
Right, so get a nat gas generator for temp charging solutions. Don't quadruple the inefficiency by adding hydrogen generation and a hydrogen fuel cell.
No it's not, the energy content in the end use is lower than the point of production. Meaning using a natural gas generator, which releases NOx and particulate matter while being even more inefficient than a fuel cell, would increase net emissions even if the hydrogen is reformed from nat gas.
@@visceral_investing even if that's true, you're still looking at the world's most expensive way to make power from natural gas by an order of magnitude. The cost of the fuel cell is insane. The mttf of the fuel cell is terrible. And there's no industry pushing improvements - certainly not like the cell phone industry pushed li ion. Hydrogen has multiple REVOLUTIONARY hurdles to overcome. And hydrogen is chasing a moving, ever-improving target. Hydrogen never had a chance before li ion came along. It has even less of a chance of ever becoming useful now.
Gray Hydrogen doesnt make financial sense let alone the efficiency losses of using solar, wind, hydro etc (renewables) to create clean green Hydrogen. Doesnt make sense not to jut concentrate on direct use of renewables and put money into creating better direct storage solutions. Hydrogen sounds good in theory but its not really even close to being financially viable for joe average to use.
What is the variable cost per kWh producing electricity this way?
That is the question! It is way more expensive!
Just fill a shipping container with batteries and fit a couple charging stations to it. Could easily fit 2 MWh of batteries which is a about the same as the capacity of this one including losses in the fuel cells.
23:30 answered that question
@@br67alex Cost of batteries vs. the inherent inefficiency of taking electricity to make the hydrogen to make the electricity again.
@@zapfanzapfan Batteries will be recycled 99%, which would make lifetime cost of them much lower.
Kyle buy one!
Thanks for showing us the current state of hydrogen technology.
And I must say, I’m very impressed with the technical knowledge of your audience in knowing the current critical downsides of producing and using hydrogen.
Nothing gets past them. 😂
The comments would have been a lot different only a few years ago.
Very cool review. It's definitely an excellent option for clean remote charging applications. On a separate note, when are you planning to do a Cadillac Lyric review as I would appreciate your unbiased perspective?
Thanks for covering new topics related to EVs. Too bad the cost of this set-up is so far out of line with alternatives such that it most likely will never be put to practical use. I note that no mention of cost per kilo-Watt hour is mentioned.
$1-$2 per kWh based on $15 to $30 per kg.
@@brushlessmotoring In addition to being 20x more expensive than charging at home , it also uses 4x more energy. It would much better to use a propane generator.
@@jasavak yup. See my other posts and replies. No disagreement here. Porsche's 2.1MWh battery trailer with 10 DC 350kW chargers probably more what this sort of day needs, one truck an hour is not really useful for a press day of EV driving.
@@brushlessmotoring Ironically , its hard to find anything worse than using hydrogen extracted from NG . Using moonshine would be a better solution . Toyota has been promoting the hydrogen hoax for years to scare people from buying BEV's to protect their hybrid sales . Most people still believe the hoax.
What does it cost money wise and environmentally to fill how and much energy is required to fill that trailer with hydrogen and how many of those trucks can that trailer fill on a charge and how long do the tanks take to fill?
So um why not just make a hydrogen fuel cell version of the shilverdo BEV? Like cut out the middle man?
3.5 MW is only enough for about 35 or 50 charging sessions, but paired up with a lower demand grid connection there may be a valid use case for this, for both high demand and remote locations.
35 to 50 charging sessions is 'only'..thats a lot of charging sessions
@@patriot2314
The logistics in transporting H2 is what I was referencing, and the cost of supporting that transport. 50 sessions will last maybe 3 days in various high use locations, maybe less with some of the massive Installations Tesla has pushed.
@@wzDH106 its not for charging vehicles on the side of the highway..that will be done by superchargers connected to the grid..this is more for work sites that are far from superchargers that would be too expensive to put a dc..think of farmers who might use electric tractors fastcharger..or those building infrastructure in the middle of nowhere..and the logostics arent that off..a single semi could carry two or three of those..which would be enough for a week or two even at a busy sight
@@patriot2314
If they can ever figure out logistics it may be possible. But the costs associated will continue to remain higher compared to a grid connection. A hybrid approach, as mentioned above, may keep costs in check with lower demand grid connections. As it stands right now, it'll take about double the electricity to charge a battery using the H2 loop (creating H2 + creating electricity via the fuel cells) as opposed to charging from the grid direct.
Another hybrid setup could include a limited grid connection, or on site renewable generation, backed up with a small battery bank then supplemented with H2 for high demand use cases..... assuming the Hydrogen doesn't escape over the course of the storage.
I hope you didn't use an ICE truck to get that storage trailer there....
Tesla or BYD should have a larger BESS for homes by now where a car can DC charge from it. Tesla's Powerwall should also see double or more capacity considering that more people have at least two of it per home installation
Hydrogen sounds great… unless you actually understand chemistry and physics 🤣🤣🤣
It almost looks like battery pack is from a volt.
Picture on that menu is the Volt battery, wonder if they just stuck Volt battery modules in it.
Voltage looks to be about right as well. Pack voltage at 100% on a Gen 2 Volt should be like 385-390v, 344 should be about right if it's at a lower state of charge?
In most cases where you have access to the grid (even if it’s a smaller connection), you’ll be better off with batteries hooked up to a DCFC.
This may make more sense after natural disaster and/or when the grid is completely down in the area.
You need power to make or use hydrogen, if there is no grid its the same as a battery... but the battery can be easily charged with PV while you need way more power to make hydrogen (and you still can't make it yourself.. but you can charge your own battery with solar...) This is way too expensive and inefficient like every use of hydrogen in small appliances.
I'm not focused on "green". I want the cheapest price. Cost must be part of the "efficiency" equation. If not, it's incomplete.
If you want low cost hydrogen is never an option.
While there are situations where this would be of use (ex: right after a natural disaster where there's no electricity), I think in 90% of situations, a regular DCFC with a big battery and a smaller electrical grid connection would work just as well if not better. Even if you can only get 50-100 amp service (at 240volts) type of grid connection, let that continuously charge the DCFC battery combo, then it can charge cars via DCFC from the internal battery. That way it'll continuously recharge, where hydrogen you'll periodically have to swap out your hydrogen trailer.
Exactly.
I agree with you, however, it can be an absolute nightmare to get a new utility connection - especially if it will only be temporary. The main holdup with installing DC fast chargers today is the permitting and connection to the local power utility. These trailers would work great for any temporary situation that doesn't last more than a month or two.
Delivery by diesel on demand.
The battery icon on the display looks just like a chevy volt battery
Cool, I like it is quiet. If we can get to a point where H2 production is less CO2 (green Hydrogen) this is ideal. I wonder what it is going to take to scale green H2 production and distribution? Does gray hydrogen produce less CO2 than using diesel or gas? I hope so or this is pointless until we get to green or blue hydrogen production.
If hydrogen delivery and filling is easier for these fuel cell devices, I think these could be the fuel station for EV in the short term to take presser off the grid.
How often do you need to charge the trailer?
3,5 MW said in the video, count from there. 3500kW/77kW (Tesla Model 3) = 45 times
@@timogronroos4642 Wow you are right. That would be used up in a day then they would have to travel to the nearest refill location and fuel up every day!!!
Running back and forth to fill up with hydrogen is the same as running back and forth to fill with gas. Wouldn’t a solar and battery setup make more sense? Make power where you are instead of going to get the fuel to make the power where you are.
How small could you make this? Would this be feasible as a range extender? Could it be fit into a solution that is small enough to put on a tongue box or maybe smaller than a toolbox that you would put in the bed of a truck?
Since hydrogen cars exist, I'm guessing what you're saying is possible from a technical standpoint. But, I highly doubt it would make sense economically; if you really want a range extender, a diesel solution would be much cheaper, even though it would pollute more.
Bad idea, forget it. Expensive, heavy and would cost 7 times more than just go and charge your battery at home.
You're better off converting your truck to hydrogen combustion at that point.
@@ab-tf5fl you’re probably right. Are diesel generators more energy dense than regular gas? I run a business and actually I have the predecessor to this truck. The Chevy avalanche my hope would be that 99% of the time I never have to use gas at all. But on the few times that I do need to call greater distance or tow upgrade distance simply don’t have charging option wherever we are camping or working. That I would have back up plan. I’m curious what the smallest and quietest but also most powerful option would be. By the way, I have both accounts, but on this account is where I do videos on my Chevy avalanche.
Hold on, are they using a Chevrolet Volt battery?
At over $30/liter for hydrogen, diesel is much more affordable, along with the generators! With gray hydrogen, you might as well use diesel again. 🤠👍
$30 / liter? I thought hydrogen is sold by weight. The last time I check, hydrogen was selling for $25 / kg in California
@@cyclopsvision6370 Ah you are correct, sorry, I had the wrong units, metric... About 2.2lbs of hydrogen! 😁 The last I saw it was $29 in CA. But either way it is very expensive for just less energy content than a gallon of gas, and quite a bit lower than a gallon of #2 diesel. So for all practical use for the average consumer it doesn't work out, and considering the lack of places you can purchase it from, at least right now it is not practical at all. However if you are Chevy, then its fine, because its just a statement for recharging EV's with gray hydrogen and it's not something people would have to do. I guess we can ask Toyota and see the spectacular global sales of the Mirai! 👍
@@Chris_In_TexasYou can probably count on one hand the number of Mirai cars sold worldwide.
@@justinfowler2857 I know it was a bit of sarcasm there. With only what about 50-60 filling stations in a few metro areas it doesn’t surprise me. I mean they are giving three years of free hydrogen away with each one. 👍
Hydrogen is definitely more expensive than diesel, both in terms of fuel cost and equipment cost. In exchange for the extra cost, you shift the pollution to somewhere where where the event goers don't need to listen to it or breathe it (which still has some value, even if the greenhouse gas impacts are the same).
Overall, the cost-benefit calculations probably only make sense if the government either provides huge subsidies to the hydrogen solution and/or bans the diesel alternative. And even then, this could be just a temporary stopgap until battery technology catches up.
4:40 Natural gas? You mean just Water. Slipping the H2 from the O and compressing the H2. It's just water they're using, they want you to think it's some more than that, that's why he said "Natural Gas" - LOL
Lol not all H2 is made from splitting water via water electrolysis. He said natural gas, because, that's how some H2 is produced
@@Mac10943 still not 100% true Mac. Water is Natural Gas...
@@buzzdean7756 Bro what 😂
Then why not go full Hydrogen instead of battery EV .
A Tesla being charged by hydrogen powered generator plant. Elon would have a thermal runaway. 😂😂😂😂
Cool. That needs a small Solar PV array on it, Either set up as a canopy or just ground mount at a job site, To trickle charge that battery up. I know of 540w cigs that's roughly 1m x 2m. Not bad for something that can be rolled up like a yoga mat.
Cool to see it's possible but the $1/kwh they noted in another review in addition to the hydrogen source likely being mostly natural gas I can't help but feel it's all show and not really practical or green yet. If I was a farmer out in nowhere it would make more sense to me to go solar with a big battery rather than messing around with hydrogen. At least then it's actually green and gives you energy independence in rven more silence. Seems like a quick way to power somehwere and fun to see at least.
It is more profitable.
NEXT LEVEL!
Again 🙄
Neat science experiment, but synthetic fuels would be way more efficient for tasks like remote construction. And I wonder how it would work in a dirty, dusty environment typically found on construction sites (needing clean air for fuel cells).
Really curious about the safety implications of hydrogen tech like this. I can't help but hear pure hydrogen storage and think Hindenburg. I'm sure there's plenty of modern tech to prevent that kind of thing, but I'd love to hear more about it.
The Hindenburg was literally covered in rocket fuel. The silver coating. Also the Hindenburg was gaseous hydrogen. Hydrogen is generally safer than petrol because if it leaks, it floats towards space. Petrol leaks and pools under the vehicle.
Yeah that isn’t fast charging at all. Somehow this needs to be able to do 250 kw not 60-70kw to be practical. But love the idea.
This is pretty neat, but unless the hydrogen is made with renewables instead of NG, it doesn't feel much better than a diesel gen with battery buffer in terms of a portable power station. Total weight I suppose but not sure how often that would be a limiting factor for such a niche item as this. By volume, diesel has a lot of energy density even at a 30-40% conversion rate.
There could also be a flow battery future for something like this. Energy density is pretty low currently, but if that significantly improves it could be a good way to transport energy. If it's on a trailer, you could have a fold-out solar canopy to help extend its deployment cycle.
This is the future of hydrogen! Convert fuel stations to hydrogen and DCFC. Trucks come and dump hydrogen, passenger vehicles come and charge.
Bomb on wheels.
All powered vehicles are a bomb on wheels under the wrong circumstances.
Thank you for pulling back the curtain on this process. One question I wished you had asked is: as long as H2 is available, why not just use it as fuel to run a conventional generator or even a small turbine, instead of using a fuel cell stack. If you ever get a similar opportunity to talk to an engineer, please ask that question.
That’s cool
OK for charging EVs. HFCV? Nah :/ Unless it's a ship or something similarly large. And I bet it's not green hydrogen in those bottles. Joe Romm used to say "forget hydrogen, forget hydrogen, forget hydrogen".
Hydrogen is hydrogen, by the time it goes into the tank, nobody will know or care how it was produced, they just pound the table claiming hydrogen fuel cells have no emissions
You didn’t ask him how much hydrogen leaks out at 7000 PSI ! Hydrogen molecules are so small there is “NO” known containers that will hold hydrogen in captivity. The only way to captivate hydrogen is to slow down the molecular movement of the hydrogen molecules thus allowing weak molecular bonds to from between the hydrogen and special metals that are absent a valence electron. This means to keep tanks refrigerated or they could turn into a big ball of fire. The refrigeration adds to the cost of using hydrogen as a fuel source. Hydrogen also is a greenhouse gas the unconsumed hydrogen is considered 10 times worse for our environment than anything gasoline and diesel put into the atmosphere right now. Have you ever watch the refueling of an hydrogen tank there is always venting on unconsumed hydrogen during the connection and reconnection process. The vent seem minimal on first looks, but imagine the entire world venting small amounts. This reminds me of when we stopped putting Freon in hair spray. A little bit can go a long way. Please! Stop promoting the use of hydrogen. Letting big business be responsible for the control of a hydrogen supply system is going to produce another Hindenburg, where all the people of the planet will pay the price. Only the wealthy will be able to afford hydrogen because the rare earth element required to make truly green hydrogen comes from one place on the planet 🌍. The price this element will skyrocket if the world jumps on the green hydrogen band wagon. Solar and wind is much more prolific and cheaper, thus reducing reducing the chance of a monopoly. I could bore you the hundreds reasons hydrogen is bad, by now you have already made up yours minds and stopped reading.
I like the idea portable clean energy
Since 99% of hydrogen is currently produced from fossil fuels and the 1% of green hydrogen is 3 to 5 times the price of the fossil fuel hydrogen. Not that I like diesel generators but they would still be cleaner then fossil fuel hydrogen power.
Nice!
And of course what is the cost per kWh?
No questions about Tesla connector? Why only CCS?
I take this will charge Tesla and Ford vehicles too, thanks to GM Adopting NACS!
Too bad they haven't integrated a water electrolyzing solution yet.
They us Pim Particles!!!
I wish UA-cam would give the user an option to turn off HDR, I can’t stand it but I understand some people might like it.
Kyle, that would be called a hybrid. A hybrid pickup for long huals towing is about the ONLY hybrid that should be on the road.
50kW of very expensive and polluting charging… why not just use 400V lines with battery buffers?
Looks pretty inefficient to me.