@@grenadegoboom4967 Ah yes, after watching the video he was really doing a lot to brag up ... *checks notes*.... nothing? Instead of posting unhelpful garbage in the comments, you could possibly post a point of view that is in contention with what he is saying along with some supporting evidence. I'm going to be a smug pile of shit and assume though that you too are just a smug pile of shit and will not contribute anything of value to this comment section.
"Ok. Don't buy one." Perhaps the best ending to an EV video ever. And I own 2 EVs. But after looking at the replies to the above comment. I think I need to point out that he is saying don't buy one at your own peril.
@@strredwolf That balance is changing shockingly fast. How many car makers have agreed that internal combustion is over within 3-5 years? (have pledged to stop making IC-Engines)
@@ThompYT A PHEV is a good middle ground, and it's what I use. Most of the time I'm on battery, but when I need to make a longer trip, I've got a reservoir of gas for the ICE. A pure hybrid, without the option to charge the battery, does seem pretty pointless now that PHEVs are a thing.
What I love the most about this video is that Robert is explaining about stuff accordingly yet changing location one after another without missing a point. ♥️. That is dedication and very cool way to make a video
I love your style, clear, funny and just the right amount of sarcasm. I thought I knew most of this stuff, but one thing I learned is the important benefit of 800V vs. 400V. Thanks for doing what you do!
Of all the things my car salesman said that I researched and found to be mostyl inaccurate, the benefits of the 800V battery was totally true. He also was telling me why I should buy the upgrade to support 150kW charging at 400V stations, but in the US most stations capable of anything close to 150kW have 800V support.
Am I an avid viewer of both technology connections and out of spec motoring so I understand most of this already? Yes. Am I going to watch Robert explain it again. Absolutely!
If he thinks things are bad now, wait until the percentage of cars on the road that are EV will be like. When you are drawing 150kw, you are getting a huge amount of power. Now move this up several orders of magnitude and you are using a significant fraction of the power of that entire area. The costs are going to increase ENORMOUSLY and the fast charging will be significantly slower. In a small city, EVs could be consuming a nuclear reactor's worth of electricity.
This video is fantastic. Well thought out, organized, and recorded. Thank you for taking the time to put this together. Just bought a Bolt EUV (I did research and knew its slow level 3 limitations). That said, it is WONDERFUL to drive an electric vehicle. I'm really looking forward to new cars as the technology advances.
Hey look everybody, I found the troll! (It was "Anne Frank Vape Pen" but they mercifully seem to be missing now) And Franklin, congrats! I can't wait to join you in the EV club. If I hadn't have just bought a house, I'd be going for a Bolt as well.
@@ThisIsReMarkable Congratulations on the house! As for the charging time.... Doesn't affect me. I charge at home. I also have a bad thyroid so I imagine I'll just take one of my many naps if I need a long charge on a road trip.
@Anne Frank Vape Pen When EVs can go from 0-100% in three minutes like my gas car and chargers are in every human settlement with no lines, maybe I'll buy one.
I kept my old gas car. The right tool for the right job, my electric is great on my commutes (work construction and my company considers anything under 70 miles each way as "in town") with the city and whatnot but the gas is a way better choice for winter trips to visit family because PA is EXTREMELY LACKING in DCFC. Also if you have driven on snow how does the EUV do with traction control? My Ioniq is useless without snow tires.
@@bwofficial1776 What does a car spend 95% of time doing? Just sitting there. That's time it can spend fueling and an ICE vehicle cannot do that. Is really about what tradeoffs we make and what our priorities are- emissions, cost of ownership (fuel, maintenance), fueling times, etc.
As an EV owner (well, a 2014 nissan leaf, but it counts!) my biggest problem with fast chargers is just how many of them are broken or occupied by gas cars/cars that aren't charging. Absolutely infuriating when you're relying on them
2012 Leaf owner- I never quick charge. I probably have done it 6 times in 8 years of owning the car. If I need to drive farther, I take our F150. Love the leaf though- saves us so much $$. 1 cent per mile.
As an avid EV road tripper, this is a great intro learning video to DC fast charging. Just the practical information and they "why's" that match them. LOVE Plugshare! My favorite DCFC is the Electrify America station at the Corvette museum - you can go across the highway and take your car to lose a couple laps against a corvette, then you can immediately charge back up to do it again!
As an ex electronics tech, these voltage and current numbers are eye watering. It just goes to show even more how impressive hydrocarbons are as a store of energy.
@@cambridgemart2075 lmao bruh look into anything considered a VOC, and then look at a used car (aged emissions control) and its outputs. then think of bad actors who purposely run rich or otherwise extra-pollute
@@cambridgemart2075 NOX CO2 both in sufficient quantities can kill you both are greenhouse gases (ie contribute to global warming because it insulates the planet.
When I was a kid in the 60’s and 70’s I remember my parents planning road trips. How far to the next gas station hotels camp grounds where to eat etc. Everything was thought out ahead of time. We haven’t had to do that for a very long time with the plethora of gas stations hotels etc. Electric car road trips bring us back to those days, at least for now.
In contrast, Alex from Technology Connections did a nice video highlighting the benefits of Level1 and Level2 charging at home. Also worth checking out.
THANK YOU for explaining *why* the EV6's charge curve is so much better than my Model 3! I never realized that the *reason* that the amperage being halved due to the voltage doubling causes the heat to be *quartered*. That makes so much sense!
There is one thing he forgot. That is battery pre conditioning. I have a M3P. If pre conditioned and below 20% it charges over 1000 Mph at first with the curve. In 20 Min it adds 200 miles. Also missing is how the cables are cooled with liquid coolant. This allows the heat that is generated from high amperage to cool off the connection cord.
@@skywave12 CCS charging cables are also liquid-cooled. But yeah, the EV6 and Ionqi 5 not having preconditioning is a major failure on Hyundai/Kia's part.
It's amazing the changes that have happened to you, Robert. From an Android Developer needing to drive close to an hour to work with a hobby of making some videos about interesting cars. To now, where you are one of the best CarTubers out there, you're able to do things like make a EV Sleeper Ford Escape, or convert a school bus into an RV/Car Hauler Franken-bus, or even make videos like this, breaking down incredibly complicated, nuanced, and confusing topics like DC Fast-Charging, giving us more consideration to get an EV or not. Keep on rolling, Robert.
Alec's (multiple) videos about EV charging were informative. They provide a significant amount of information. Your videos tell me what I absolutely need to know in a way that makes it easy to understand. Both are valuable. Your and Alec should find more subjects where he can do a deep dive and you can help us understand. Call it "technology connections for dummies"
I just rewatched Alec's videos. They are mostly focused on home charging installations/recommendations for people new to EV world. His video on DC fast charging is about the technology behind them. What Robert is covering here is a different issue for people with different questions and doubts.
I have experienced Superchargers being out or silently derating the charge current as well, but it's always been limited to one charger or one charging cabinet. Switching from 1A to 1B or 1A to 2A has always fixed the problem unless the entire area is in a power outage.
Great video! I've been driving EV's for 6 years now.. and you explained everything perfectly! It's rare to find an EV video this accurate and clearly explained.
Hopefully by then the charging situation for long distance travel will be simpler. On the other hand EVs like mine with a comically small battery are very easy to live with for daily commute/errands with just plugging it in every night to a regular wall outlet.
@@metromadness2016 Well, you are and you aren't. You'll save a ton of money on fuel and maintenance over the course of the car's lifetime... but at least for now, you'll pay a pretty big premium to buy the car in the first place. So it probably doesn't quite even out today, especially after the major price hikes in recent years. But eventually EV prices will come down to the same level as ICE car prices, and then it'll be a financial no-brainer to buy an EV over an ICE.
@@coredumperror too much money and I hate everything about modern cars. I have nothing against electric cars specifically they’re cool and very fast, but new cars suck and are ugly. Biggest reason is they’re so expensive lol how am I supposed to buy an electric car
agree! I only use AC charging. I'm a bit lucky as my workplace lets me plug the car into the wall all day. I'm told that avoiding DC charging will keep my battery healthier for longer.
@@Turk380 maybe so - but all the electrical engineers with EVs limit even their slow at-home charging to the lowest rate the car will let them, to charge with the lowest possible battery damage.
@@jackthelad9933 It's not AC vs DC charging which makes a difference but rather the charge rate. This distinction doesn't matter with today's charging stations but in the future things might be different. I can imagine cars slow charging via DC from solar panels.
I absolutely love how you ended this video! I'm going to buy a new car sometime this year. It will very likely be an EV. I just need to decide if I'm going to keep my gasser around for those "but sometimes..." situations. I mean, a dealer won't give me any decent money for a 15 year old rusted Honda anyway, so it's a matter of if I feel it's worth keeping it registered and ready to go. But I know that for >=95% of the time, the EV will be less of a hassle for me.
Honestly that outro is so accurate. It's not fair to look at the charging network and go "EVs are useless and stupid and we should just give up on them" but if you don't want to deal with it, fine. If you have access to at-home (or maybe lvl2+ at work) then unless you're doing a road trip, you could very well never use a DC charging station. That said, the charging infrastructure definitely needs a lot of work, and will continue to improve as more and more EVs get out on the roads. (I hope, anyways) Also, Tesla has been saying for _so long_ that they're going to finally open up the supercharging network, how the crap have they _still_ not done that? Get it together, guys.
Thanks for the information. I think I could live with an EV most of the time as a daily driver. Someone needs to start targeting attractions like caves, parks, etc. near interstates and roads to install EV chargers. It would increase the traffic to the attractions and give travelers the opportunity to make their charging time more productive.
Picking up my new Bolt EV this afternoon. I am 100% aware if the issues with it's slower charging capability. Will charge at home 99% of the time, so it will be fine for me.
I’ve owned 2 Bolts (a 2019 EV and a 2022 EUV). They’re brilliant cars. Yes, they DC charge slowly, but if you know this and plan ahead, it’s basically a non-issue. For every other usage, they’re lightyears better than any similar ICE vehicle.
Used a Public Charger for the first time today! When I pulled up, the only available at the time was the Level 2 charger and it would have taken me 4 hours to charge. I gave up after 30 minutes, but luckily, one of the Fast Chargers became available, so I switched and went from 42% to 80% in 22 minutes (2023 KIA Niro EV). Now, once I get my home charger installed in a couple of weeks (Level 2), I'll charge overnight or in the early AM. I won't care if it takes 4 hours at home, I have solar roof panels.
Thank you for creating an excellent video. There are some things I would like to add. 1. DC fast charging shorten the life of the battery. EV batteries are half the price of the vehicle, do you really want to shorten their life? 2. You mentioned that a lot of the charging stations are broken. In large urban cities those charging stations won't last 24 hours before they are vandalized. 3. You said that when you connect to a charging station, don't walk away. Check to see if it is actually fast charging. Ok, but what do you do if it's not fast charging? 4. Most people don't want to be a techno geek to fill their vehicle when away from home. And most people don't what to wait 20 to 60 minutes to get an 80% charge. We will never get the majority of Americans to convert to EVs until these issues are resolved. 5. Who is Kyle Conner?
The reason a lot of charging stations reduce power is they use shared supplies which can't deliver full output to all the charging points at the same time. If there is too much demand, they will de-rate.
I'd like to note also, this is why I avoided the Bolt. I don't think Chevy realized this is going to come back to bite them long term. One might say that the DC fast charging infrastructure is currently lacking, but given time, it's going to explode. The problem with the Bolt is the maximum DC fast charge rate is 50 kW. So it essentially eliminates it as any form of a road-trip car. This may be a small portion of all trips in an automobile, but by not having it, you take out a very important ability that people expect in modern automobiles.
Oh thank goodness, you mentioned our car in your video (Kia Niro EV). No one--including Chargepoint and our insurance company--seems to realize that they exist... Yay, we're not insane! (probably) Great info in this video, much appreciated.
Right there with you. I enjoy these videos, but I’ll never own one of these damn electrotronical contraptions. I understand carburetors, injection pumps, even basic efi stuff. Guess I’m just stuck in the past, and I’m okay with that.
LOVE the last line in this!!! There will come a day I want an EV. That is not today. Please keep updating us on this so maybe the day I want one will get here.
You can also activate those Charge point chargers if your debit/credit card supports tap to pay. But I super agree, they don't tell you that and all the apps are so annoying.
@@kaitlyn__L Yeah, that won't work on the EA chargers or the EVGo ones. Those you need *their* membership card. But chargepoint chargers will kick on with your tap debit/credit card
By far the best style of video on the Tube- finally someone who actually can edit content to be concise informative and a little funny too and yet correct misinformation. Liked and subscribed. Can’t believe it took me this long to find it!
From the UK, a small country by US standards, I basically agree. The charging infra-structure is not there. In fact, chaotic. Drive an EV to work, do the shopping ok; anything else becomes a major chore. It's all about range and how long it takes to 'refuel'. It's also the wrong technology. Hydrogen is the future. But we could also walk and bicycle a lot more. And develop modern, efficient public transport in our towns, cities and regions. Informative stuff though AW. Keep going! Love and peace.
Absolutely on point about EA. Unfortunately they're 75% of the chargers within 200 miles of me. A smartphone is almost a must-have as well, since many of these require an app, have their card reader broken, etc. Other than being broken my biggest complaint about chargers is places that put them in the preferred parking spots right up by the door. Just begs to have an ICE car park there. Put 'em out back, we have lots of time to walk while the car is charging. I have a Bolt, and yeah it's not a road trip car but it's doable. We've done a few trips, just don't be in a hurry and plan on getting lunch or going on a walk to see local sights or something while it charges -- typically 45-60 minutes for 10-80%.
The issue there is running the cable to the charger, companies are cheap and will not spend more than they absolutely have to. Running the cable only a few feet to the nearest parking spot is much cheaper than boring under the entire parking lot.
One of my issues is how many chargers are inaccessible. I’d have to pick between the disabled spot and the charging spot! I don’t see why they don’t just build _most_ of out the way but have one or two in the disabled zone. Heck the EA chargers in this video are basically built like that anyway with the extra space, which I don’t see at chargers over in the UK. I’d be amazed if the disabled spots at that store weren’t right next to those ones in this video, or if they even took a few away for the chargers. Given various statistics say disabled people are like 10-20% of the population, and many are dependent on cars even in places with good public transport infrastructure (and often travel more to appointments and specialists), you’d think the charger companies would want to ensure that segment of the market could use their chargers! And I suppose the EA ones in this video are… if only incidentally.
I just finished renting a Polestar 2 (larger battery pack) here in Australia. Really loved the vehicle. Great performance, easy to drive, loved it all around. The only weird thing was the charge time estimate was completely broken. I was using my 240v/10A household outlet. The car told me it would be charged at 7:30am. I checked at 10am, and it was far from finished. Said the new time was 12:30pm. Checked at 12:30pm... and the time had blown out to 2:30pm. A full SEVEN hour error. And this was slow charging at 2.3kWh where the car doesn't slow down charging.
What would we do without you. your research, is to say the least, extremely thorough. your delivery is easy to follow and amusing . Not only this one which is fabulous for me, because I'm not an EV fan, because now I know as much as I need to know to hold an informed discussion with other folk in my situation. Recently I reccommended your video about thicknessers because like everything you do it was thorough and fabulous. I said this before you are so marketable and I love watching your videos . Well Done
My car fills up overnight without any effort on my part other than plugging it in. I don't care how long it takes because I'm sleeping, and it's always full in the morning. I never have to stop at "fuel stations" and worry about gas prices, nor do I worry about anything said in this video because I drive less than 4 hours per day. Honestly, never *needing* to stop at a gas station is a huge quality of life improvement that you don't realize until you've gone EV, then have to use a gas car. I have saved far more time by skipping gas stations in my daily life, than I lose with the extra/longer stops on road trips. It's a net gain for me.
@Travis Ash Yes, he presented a lot of information in a clear and concise manner. However, he only said not to buy one if you feel that having to keep this information about charging in mind is not appealing.
I love that you are covering these topics in an approachable way. As a former Tesla employee, you're doing a much better job than most employees could. Also, as 2022 bolt owner, I take your jab at its shit-tastic charging speed due to fire go boom on the chin. Still a fucking great daily EV. Damn is good. I hate public DC and AC chargers. These companies need help and need regulations on maintaining them by the F384king company and not the site. BTW very helpful with the battery voltage and Amps. Very helpful.
The charging speed of the bolt really doesn't have anything to do with the battery defects. That's a factor of the onboard hardware (cabling). The software limit to 80% for many cars does.
@@tjsean0308 The retrofit battery pack and changes made due to cell failures and electronic (BMS) to prevent previous issue do not have anything to do with charging speed is correct, but jokes aren't always 100% truthful. however, that does go towards the conversation of nominal pack voltage, amps, and sustained charged rate, which the Bolt kind a sucks nuts at. LVL1&2 charging is best with the Bolt. The Bolt doesn't have a charging limit for 80%, my assumption many CCS vehicles don't due to dual charging ability's. My 2016 KIA Soul did until a 2021 update to BMS opened the battery to 100% access and removed the 80% limit to 92%
Thanks for sharing! I think that last bit at the end is the most important part - the range of EVs are so high these days that they are perfect commuter cars - and most of the people buying them will rarely charge at rapid charging stations - most of the charging can be done at home for daily use!
One thing to add about the Tesla Superchargers, the current V3 units have a liquid cooled cable to increase the current carrying capability while making the cable itself smaller in diameter vs the V2 units. The upcoming V4 Superchargers will take this a step further by combining the cooling tubes and the current conductors into the same cable/tube letting the coolent come directly into contact with conductors.
I really hope that these issues improve over the next five years. Things have definitely changed for the better from five years ago. However, if I bought a car today I absolutely would not buy an EV. I would still buy a car fueled by gasoline. I will be delighted if my answer changes in five years. I always enjoy watching the current state of affairs and it looks like things are coming along. I'm just not ready to buy. That's why I clicked "Like" on this video and keep watching this channel.
honestly, it’s probably the same for me unless and until I can charge in the basement of my building, or if they build a fast charger right next door to my building.
Right now, for those who don't want to deal with the issues Robert mentioned with DC fast charging, a Plug-In Hybrid EV is a fantastic option. If you can charge every day at home or at work, and you don't have an especially long commute (most PHEVs offer 35+ miles of EV range), a PHEV will run fully electric 95% of the time. And you'll have the gasoline engine for when you need to drive longer distances than a daily commute.
Unless you're road tripping all over the country all the time (and be honest with your self there how often you do that) this is mostly a non-issue. It's better to think about it like charging your phone; you occasionally need to do it out but you charge at home every night when you sleep so it's not an issue. That said if you cant charge at home, DO NO BUY AN EV. It would be a miserable experience, and will be so for the foreseeable future.
@@wehooper4 > It would be a miserable experience Not necessarily. If you can charge at work, or at a public level 2 charger that's walking distance from your house, or you live/work near enough to a DC fast charger to use it like a gas station, it'd be fine.
I use an EV every day as a rideshare driver. But I've had difficulty finding how to travel with it. The web site you listed looks great. I think I will take a chance with it and see how well I can travel. Thanks for that.
@@SimuLord I work in tech. The single most popular make in my parking garage is Tesla. So many Teslas. They're not cheap either. Tesla is a tech company that happens to make cars. They're the Apple of the car industry. Proprietary connectors, rabid fans who will defend the poor quality to the death, glitchy software, look unique while being featureless, sells a dull interior as a good thing.
@@Konarcoffee they only do thus in the US (which is 4% of the world’s population). In other countries (Europe for example) they (were forced to) open their charging network to other brands… it’s the same with apple and usb c.
Yours is the best, most comprehensive, coverage of EV charging that I have seen in the past 3 years. Amazing. I think I'll go sign up to your patreon now.
Great video Robert 👍 It's refreshing to here the 'basics' explained in a very clear and informative way. Ideal for folk who are baffled by the numbers, the science and the misinformation that seems to surround the emerging world of EVs. Also, the ending was great! 👍🤣
This is a lot of info-in a very “crash course” format. But very helpful to people who don’t know! I’ve shown a lot of people this video, and they all go “OHHH”. Great work :)
The Kyle reference was priceless. And the presentation was excellent. And A Better Route Planner is awesome. Excellent close too. For my part, I only recommend EVs as a second car. Well, unless the buyer is looking at a Tesla.
I just checked and it seems in Ontario (at least near me) chargers are based on a minute rate. That seems to create an incentive to keep the chargers at lower capacities.
Incredibly informative and clears up a lot of the quirks about it. Haha, and yeah, the very end statement is kinda true - complicated at this time. I imagine a decade from now with better batteries, better charge networks and more unified standards, it will all be a little less complicated.
I've never been stranded even once in a gasoline vehicle, so I don't think getting stranded in an ev even once could be considered "pretty good". That being said, I'm eagerly awaiting the day that EV alternatives are as cheap and reliable as a gas vehicle. Maybe someday we'll have those charging strips like f-zero
I'm not sure that EV are less reliable than gas vehicles. The non-engine part is usually made of the same bits than gas cars so reliability should be the same, and the electric engine and battery side has less parts and so in theory should be more reliable. However you're dead with the "cheap". Save for the Dacia EV in Europe, (and Coda in the US :D ) there aren't many cheap sedan-sized EV I know of. Also one concern of mine is battery life and battery replacement issues. What if my battery pack fails and the car maker says "Sorry, we don't make those batteries anymore AND we do not allow 3rd party batteries in the pack?"
This is such a great video. After my wife got her Mini Se last year and loving it (except the fast-charging on such a small battery), I'm very much looking forward to my Polestar 2 being delivered next month. You hit all the real frustration points while still being positive about the tech (as I am).
I have an EV6 and have done some road trips with it. What's really infuriating about the EA stations is that when they start out working fine, they can still fail in the middle of the charge and when that happens, they start their 10 minute countdown to idle fees.. So far, I've caught it both times (by monitoring the apps) before the 10 minutes was up.
Really helpful overview for beginners, you got as technical as necessary but avoided detail that would overcomplicate it. And for me as experienced EV driver in Europe it was still interesting to see some of the differences between the US and here :)
I have no interest in buying an Electric vehicle. However, i still loved the video. Every time you talk about EVs i learn more about them. Keep up the good work.
Differences in Europe: - Most DC chargers are quite reliable here already, it was hell like 3 years ago. - credit card payments are quite rare here, mostly you use an app or just an RFID tag. - Tesla superchargers are open to all cars, they opened them some time ago and since Teslas in europe already use CCS, it was easy. - Prices vary but have gone up. On chargers over 100kW, minute-based pricing is quite usual, ranging from 30-50 cents per minute, with Ionity being about 0,70c per minute. This varies HUGELY with country, Finland is really cheap, where Sweden and Norway are really expensive. - Atleast in the north, battery heating is incredibly important, because otherwise in the winter you'll be struggling to break 50kW with a car that can do 135kW in the summer.
"Tesla superchargers are open to all cars, they opened them some time ago and since Teslas in europe already use CCS, it was easy." As of a few months ago Tesla had to pause the pilot program because it was running afoul of laws requiring the dispensers to have a display on them showing the price and amount of product dispensed. Tesla superchargers do not have a screen, so naturally they did not comply with that law. it was also a lot easier in Europe because Tesla was required to use the EU standard (J-1772 Type 2, aka "Mennekes") from the start. The US superchargers use a different, proprietary connector and protocol. It won't be easy...
@@Smidge204 Those legal troubles are local to a specific country? Atleast in finland there is no issue, and almost no chargers display their price on them, it's only in the app just like Tesla. And even in Europe, old superchargers use the NACS proprietary plug, with new ones having CCS. Those old superchargers aren't open to the public, since they can't be used by anything else than an old Model S or X
@@MKVD Alright let's get the pedantic part out of the way: They do not use "NACS" in Europe. By definition, "NACS" stands for "North American Charging Standard" and that "standard" didn't even exist until a few months ago. Anyway, back to the important bits. I'm pretty sure the law regarding displays on dispensers was specific to Germany, but I'd have to dig up the old articles to confirm. Dispensers without displays were previously acceptable because it was a closed ecosystem that only Tesla vehicles could use, but opening the network up to the public triggered compliance requirements. I'm sure they're working on a compromise, if the issue isn't resolved already... As for the EU connector type; Back in January 2013 the European Commission set a mandate that **all** EVs sold in the EU must use the J-1772 Type 2 connector, commonly referred to as "Mennekes" after the company that designed it. If there exists any Tesla vehicles or superchargers with the original, proprietary connector, they were in Europe prior to 2013-2014.
@@Smidge204 The mandated Mennekes plug only refers to the ”AC part” of the charging connector, which is why cars like the Nissan Leaf with Chademo for DC charging still exist and are sold in europe. Older Teslas with their proprietary plug can either be retrofitted with a CCS plug by a service center or use an adapter for CCS or even Chademo.
10 to 80% is also done to increase the battery's lifespan. Batteries really don't like being at 0 or 100%, and by not going under 10%, or over 80% you significantly reduce the wear on it (like, by a LOT)
That applies to NMC setups but a lot of EVs are switching to LiFePO4 which at least supposedly tolerates deep cycles without a substantial lifespan penalty (Hyundai's 800V platform uses NMC, Teslas are mixed but moving towards LFP, most Chinese brands use LFP because Chinese battery manufacturers are market leaders in LFP but not that great at NMC batteries etc etc)
@@bosstowndynamics5488 they tolerate it better, but no battery is really truly happy with it. The main difference is NMC battery controllers just add extra padding, so “0%” is actually 10-20%. And LFP just needs less padding (that’s not to guarantee every manufacturer is running them any lower though). Heck in the early Priuses, indicated-0% was actually 50%, and indicated-100% was 60%! So the electric range could’ve been 10x higher, but Toyota wanted to ensure they didn’t die after a couple years. In the second or third generation they increased it to IIRC 30% and 70% which helped, but still.
@@bosstowndynamics5488 That's not true, LiFePo4 are susceptible too to deep charges and discharges. They're just more resilient in general, so even if you abuse them they're gonna last longer than standard Li-Ion... but you're still wasting a few hundred cycles.
@@kaitlyn__L Yeah, I'm going to need a source for that claim about the Prius - first and second gen Priuses at the very least used nickel metal hydride batteries which definitely don't have the same wear characteristics as small cycle loving lithium NMC batteries (NiMH actually prefers having a deep cycle every now and then, older NiCd batteries even required it), and more importantly weigh *a lot* more, so you generally can't afford to leave any capacity on the table. Such a shallow cycle depth would have been very wasteful.
@@bosstowndynamics5488 the claim comes from Big Car’s Prius documentary. Feel free to check it out and leave a comment about it! IIRC he puts references for claims but I cba checking how extensive that goes. He did indeed mention it was NiMH at least. Since I’m aware that lead-acid batteries hate going below 50%, I didn’t question it. Edit; come to think of it I do recall wondering, but then thinking about how most small NiMH cells stop powering devices once they hit 2.2-2.3V, peaking at 2.4-2.5 when fully charged, but their actual discharge state is 2.1V. So most use cases don’t go below… 20%, 30%? But that was all just pondering and back of the napkin stuff, I didn’t look anything up.
Great Video! The presented issues with the chargers were one major factor, why i went with a model 3 sr+ back in 2018 (combined with the lack of alternatives back then)
As much as I really LOVE your channel and videos, I disagree on the 400V/800V discussion! The 400V do not limit the AVERAGE charging power on a car, only mostly the PEAK. But in the end, it comes down on cell chemistry and also mainly actually on how willing the car manufacturer is to torture those cells. It would be easy for e.g. Tesla to roll out an update that doubles the average charging power but then the cells in the battery pack would degrade... A LOT....! Therefore yes, 800V is good to reduce charging losses and eventually provide more MAXIMUM PEAK charge speed but will NOT make your car charge faster on average! Also from your example: actually the Hyundai Ioniq 5's battery is not at 800V, it's at 400-500V. 800V is only used to transfer the energy from the (external) charger to the car but is then stepped down before connecting to the battery. I mean.. think of it the other way: if it plainly had an 800V battery pack and the charger would be directly connected... then even at 50% state of charge (around... 600V then, estimated?) you still could not charge AT ALL on a 400V DC charger. :) And... this is coming from someone who just wants to be part of your explainations and really, REALLY..... R-E-A-L-L-Y LOVES BOTH of your channels and not from some know-it-all-a-hole! :D :)
Erm... Not so much. Nothing you said is technically _wrong_ as far as I'm aware, it's just that none of this happens in a vacuum. _Because_ the higher voltage requires less amperage, it puts less wear and tear on all components, from the transformer to the cable to the battery cells. Therefore a higher-voltage car is almost certain to charge faster. You're correct that the causality isn't "because it's higher voltage it can charge faster", but _functionally_ for the purposes of his video and the information it's trying to portray, that's identical to "because it's higher voltage the amperage is lower at an equivalent charge rate, which means the heat is lower, which means the wear-and-tear is lower, which means the manufacturers of both the car and the charge point can set each to be capable of charging faster, so it will probably charge faster in most cases." Wait... actually, he said all that. So, with the _full_ logic in place, no, Tesla most certainly _could not_ "easily" roll out an update that would double average charging power... _because_ the cells in the battery pack would degrade, and they'd have to upgrade all the charge points with thicker cables and more overbuilt transformers and boosters and other components, and that doesn't sound very easy at all, now, does it? Also, _maybe_ I'm overestimating the average learnedness of a typical human, but I think it's generally understood that the nominal voltage of a battery/charger system is only a broadly general category. An ICE car uses a "12-volt" battery and circuit to run the car's electronics and to start the car. But really, it's a ~12.6 volt battery that drops down to anywhere from 10 to 12 volts depending on how much load it's under, the temperature, its state of charge and health, etc, that is charged by an alternator putting out ~14.4 volts, but... mostly nobody cares. In any case, most (almost all) charge points output whatever voltage the car needs, _up to_ 800 volts, so yes, an 800 volt vehicle can charge at them. If that wasn't the case, then you definitely couldn't charge an Ioniq 5 at a 400 volt station, since its battery runs (depending on exact model and geographical area) anywhere from mid-500's to 700 volts, and if you tried to charge a 400 volt vehicle at an 800 volt charger, it would light itself on fire. xD I _think_ it's the car that's in charge, and tells the charger what it wants. I think. I could be wrong, though.
I think your confused about the Ioniq 5's battery. I actually own one with the 77kWh battery and its actual BMS reported nominal voltage at 100% SOC is 794V(i.e. its a 800V battery). It uses the rear motor/inverter to step up a 400V DC supply to 800V or it can accept 800V directly if the DC charger is capable.
@@barefootalien A few points. :) Yes, less wear and tear, sure, because less charging loss because lost power goes down squared by the current so half the current => quarter the charge loss. Agreed. So less losses with 800V! But that does not at all mean that continuously charging faster is not possible on 400V. A 400V system could very easily supply 200kW continuously(400V/500A continuously! No thicker cables needed.) which no battery pack can take currently. So yeah, 800V is currently NEVER the reason why a car can charge faster, because 400V is currently easily capable of "out-supplying" the battery packs in cars. While, agreed, it would be more efficient at 800V. ;) And also yes, Tesla could easily update the charge curve as proved in the past because there were already "stronger" charging curves in place in the past but they chose to reduce it to reduce degradation on the cells. But that has nothing to do with 400V/800V. Also e.g. the Taycan charges with a very flat curve, yet you can enable a "battery safing charging mode" which strongly "reduces" the charging curve to reduce degradation on the cells. So yeah. Some manufacturers just choose to "be cool now" and let people enjoy more charge speed during early life of the car, others want their cars to last longer. And yes, therefore the car CAN limit the power received as can the charger. I recommend TeslaBjorns youtube video where he got a tour at KemPower charger manufacturer. They explain and showcase these things very well. Yet, big point of what you said regarding stress/wear&tear on the cells with 800V systems... 400V/800V do NOT AFFECT the cells. Li-Ion cells operate at 4.2 - 3.7 Volts. They don't know a thing about 400V or 800V. And the cells itself are where degradation ONLY happens. So degradation has nothing to do with voltage.
@@biboKralle It does, though... yes, each cell operates at a low voltage. That's why they're connected in a parralel array of series blocks. As I understand it, when you charge the battery, you are applying more voltage to it, in reverse, than the battery itself produces. Otherwise the battery would just "push back" against the charging voltage, and no reaction would occur. That charging voltage goes through exactly the same sequence of pathways that it did coming out to power the car, so if you over-volt the battery by a factor of two, then each cell gets, say, 10 volts instead of 5, and you most certainly _can_ shorten their lifespan, damage them, light them on fire, or even make them explode. On a less extreme level, if you trickle-charge with just a few hundred millivolts over nominal voltage, the cell charges very slowly, heat is dissipated easily, along with some other effects (crystal deposition patterns, etc depending on battery chemistry), and the cells last a lot longer. If you fast-charge with several volts over nominal per cell, everything happens faster. It generates more heat, and even if it isn't too much heat for the thermal management systems to handle, it still decreases overall lifespan. This is _why_ the charging curve changes longevity. So yes, voltage most certainly does affect deterioration, not least of all because the voltage is one of two things we can actually _control._ It's what drives the current according to V=I²R. Of those three variables, we can control voltage and resistance, but not current. The system has an innate resistance (though we could add more or less with variable resistors in various ways), so mostly what we do to control the flow of current, and thus charge rate, is to control the voltage. So you're right that it's not technically the voltage itself that degrades the cells, but with a direct proportional relationship, it's an equivalent statement.
@@barefootalien Yes, sure you can destory cells with too high voltage. But that is besides the point here! Each cell only sees less than 5V while charging, otherwise you would more or less instantly kill them, as you also said. :) Therefore my bottom line was: 800V does not help with cell degradation, a lower charging speed does. And even on 400V you could charge way faster than is good for the cells.
Thanks for a great video. FYI: Tesla has opened many of their DC chargers for all cars and added CCS charge cables in Norway. I believe this has been done as a test before rolling this out everywhere. Also, you should possibly have mentioned that ambient temperature may effect charge speed.
While you’re correct for Norway none of this applies to the North American situation, yet. And Lately Tesla has been touting its own connector, giving a lot of people the impression they may have changed their mind in terms of offering CCS1 charging at North American Superchargers.
That is a CCS2 connector in Norway (and Australia), not the CCS connector used in the USA. So, Tesla chargers will have to deal with (at least) three different plugs globally.
I would absolutely love an EV. I’m a longtime fan of Formula E, and I’ve been following the EV market for years. I just want actual performance. Every electric car on the market is too fat and their designers give absolutely zero f***s about handling. All I want is something that can rival a good Japanese sports car, like a Honda s2000, Mazda MX-5, or Toyota GT86 (which is what I have as my daily driver). Something about 2000kg, with about 200 bhp at the rear wheels, low center of gravity (which should be super easy with batteries). Heck, I’d be fine with those two numbers creeping up slightly just so the car has a half-decent battery pack size, if that’s the compromise necessary to get something like that on the market. The acceleration of EVs is cool if you’re coming from muscle cars and the like. It looks pretty impressive. But if you, like me, enjoy going sideways at safe, city street speeds, then there is nothing out there that can deliver that, even from people like Lotus or Porsche… presuming you could even afford them. But it seems like all the manufacturers just want to make giant sedans or denial minivans… I mean “crossovers”. At this rate, I’ll probably just get an electric motorcycle before an electric car, if only because those are looking more promising from a performance perspective.
I have seen many of these videos on EV fast charging but non explained the P=I²R before, I knew current was the enemy but you're the first one to say why it's a problem. Excellently explained!
This is a great summary of EV charging! Unfortunately an EV is not an option for me (can't afford one, mostly, but also I can't charge at home or at work and the inrastructer in general here in Germany is trash) but it's still interesting to learn about all the many different options used ^^
@Jehty well it certainly seems to be pretty useless around here in Munich. And judging by my parents' experience (who have two electric cars) with public charging stations I wouldn't want to be entirely dependent on them, which I would have to be.
@Anne Frank Vape Pen get outta here with that 2010 level denialism. Everyone else in the denial game has moved onto “sure it’s bad but is it really our fault?”
@@kaitlyn__L The climate has been changing since there's been a planet. We're coming out of an ice age, things are going to warm up. Plants feed on CO2.
I will send this video to people I know who need that kind of basic information. Your explanation is so good a 8 year old kid will understand. Thank you for good educational content.
I rememeber some years ago there was concern about developing the EV infrastructure. I live in Norway and we have most EV's per capita in the world. But the people that invested in Fast Charging stations complained that they were hardly used, especially out of tourist season. Because with comuting distances you frankly don't need to use one, most EV's can handle 100 miles even in winter without a charge and no stress. So a charge station dosen't have the same demand as a gas pump, using one is just such a rare occurance. Not to mention, workplaces and hotels often provides a home charge point or possibility to plug in the AC adapter, but those aren't really publicly available. So when you actually find yourself in need of one you could be in the worst possible stretch...unless you have a Tesla though...those are damn near everywhere.
Out of curiosity, how does fast charging impact battery life? The big question I have is yeah convenience wise these are great but how does it impact overall battery life + capacity.
@@ChaosSwissroIl Yeah, maybe stop spreading misinformation. The reason your phones battery is negatively affected is mainly due to heating, as it is not very easy to remove heat from your phone, and the battery chemistry in phone batteries is also made to have very high density, at the expense of lifetime (Most phones are changed within 2-4 years). EV's have battery management systems that will monitor the charging and most EV's have active cooling, where coolant is circulated to keep the battery temperature under control. If the battery is very cold, very warm or very low on power or nearly full, the battery charging will be controlled to keep the battery at the optimal charge speed, without damaging it. Yes, Fast charging might be a bit more "damaging" to the batteries, compared to slow charging at home, but most charging is usually done in the driveway or garage, at night, at a slow pace, and then you start off your day with a "full tank". The average user will do 90%+ of their charging at home.
If you stop charging at 80% or so, the effect is basically negligible. If the car has a well tuned battery management system (BMS) then even going to 100% on DCFC will be roughly the same as going to 100% on the much slower AC plug... but it will accomplish that by slowing down charging, hence the whole charging curve thing. The problem is heat, and heat at high state of charge is especially bad. Every car I can think of except the Nissan LEAF has an actively cooled battery pack to mitigate the heat from fast charging, and all vehicles with a competent BMS will reduce charging speed if the pack gets too hot. Car manufacturers understand the problems and take steps to reduce warranty claims :) So go ahead and DCFC whenever you need; not a big deal.
Is the protective cling film still on that display at 1:38? Opportunity for a peel asmr short! 😜 Thanks for the very informative video! Between you and Alec I feel much better more knowledgeable about the angry pixies recharging thing.
I don’t plan on owning an EV for a very long time because I want to keep my current car as long as possible. Despite that, I will watch this video along with every Technology Connections electric-car related video and some other nerdy miscellaneous electric car videos and I will enjoy it.
So the best video about DC fast charging in the US is made by a programmer that turned into a youtube non-mechanic and carpenter. Amazing job!
He fucking nailed it.
Programmer? I need to study my Robert Dunn lore.
You misspelled shill.
@@grenadegoboom4967 Ah yes, after watching the video he was really doing a lot to brag up ... *checks notes*.... nothing? Instead of posting unhelpful garbage in the comments, you could possibly post a point of view that is in contention with what he is saying along with some supporting evidence. I'm going to be a smug pile of shit and assume though that you too are just a smug pile of shit and will not contribute anything of value to this comment section.
@@grenadegoboom4967 🤢🤢
"Ok. Don't buy one." Perhaps the best ending to an EV video ever. And I own 2 EVs.
But after looking at the replies to the above comment. I think I need to point out that he is saying don't buy one at your own peril.
Came to the comments section for this :D
Yeah, the EV market needs to shake out a lot more. I'll probably be going hybrid for my next car.
@@strredwolf That balance is changing shockingly fast. How many car makers have agreed that internal combustion is over within 3-5 years? (have pledged to stop making IC-Engines)
@@strredwolf Hybrids absolutely suck. Either stick to gas and pray the change doesn't happen too fast where you live or just go full EV.
@@ThompYT A PHEV is a good middle ground, and it's what I use. Most of the time I'm on battery, but when I need to make a longer trip, I've got a reservoir of gas for the ICE. A pure hybrid, without the option to charge the battery, does seem pretty pointless now that PHEVs are a thing.
What I love the most about this video is that Robert is explaining about stuff accordingly yet changing location one after another without missing a point. ♥️. That is dedication and very cool way to make a video
and then you learn he did the video in it entirety at every location
Yeah, that was a great job with the scripting and editing. 👍
@@jackass123455 which doesn't mean there are any less dedication or less cool way of doing a video. 🙂
And if you have been driving an EV for long in the greater St. Louis area you recognize each location. 😁
This guy is freaking smart!
I love your style, clear, funny and just the right amount of sarcasm. I thought I knew most of this stuff, but one thing I learned is the important benefit of 800V vs. 400V. Thanks for doing what you do!
Of all the things my car salesman said that I researched and found to be mostyl inaccurate, the benefits of the 800V battery was totally true.
He also was telling me why I should buy the upgrade to support 150kW charging at 400V stations, but in the US most stations capable of anything close to 150kW have 800V support.
Am I an avid viewer of both technology connections and out of spec motoring so I understand most of this already? Yes. Am I going to watch Robert explain it again. Absolutely!
Ditto ditto and absofukinnlutely
I didn't realize he was the guy Alec road tripped with!
Damn right sir.
I feel like Aging wheels brough some nuance to this topic I've never seen other youtubers cover
If he thinks things are bad now, wait until the percentage of cars on the road that are EV will be like.
When you are drawing 150kw, you are getting a huge amount of power. Now move this up several orders of magnitude and you are using a significant fraction of the power of that entire area. The costs are going to increase ENORMOUSLY and the fast charging will be significantly slower. In a small city, EVs could be consuming a nuclear reactor's worth of electricity.
This video is fantastic. Well thought out, organized, and recorded. Thank you for taking the time to put this together.
Just bought a Bolt EUV (I did research and knew its slow level 3 limitations).
That said, it is WONDERFUL to drive an electric vehicle. I'm really looking forward to new cars as the technology advances.
Hey look everybody, I found the troll! (It was "Anne Frank Vape Pen" but they mercifully seem to be missing now)
And Franklin, congrats! I can't wait to join you in the EV club. If I hadn't have just bought a house, I'd be going for a Bolt as well.
@@ThisIsReMarkable Congratulations on the house!
As for the charging time.... Doesn't affect me. I charge at home. I also have a bad thyroid so I imagine I'll just take one of my many naps if I need a long charge on a road trip.
@Anne Frank Vape Pen When EVs can go from 0-100% in three minutes like my gas car and chargers are in every human settlement with no lines, maybe I'll buy one.
I kept my old gas car. The right tool for the right job, my electric is great on my commutes (work construction and my company considers anything under 70 miles each way as "in town") with the city and whatnot but the gas is a way better choice for winter trips to visit family because PA is EXTREMELY LACKING in DCFC.
Also if you have driven on snow how does the EUV do with traction control? My Ioniq is useless without snow tires.
@@bwofficial1776 What does a car spend 95% of time doing? Just sitting there. That's time it can spend fueling and an ICE vehicle cannot do that.
Is really about what tradeoffs we make and what our priorities are- emissions, cost of ownership (fuel, maintenance), fueling times, etc.
This guy knows what he's talking about. He explains better than any I've seen
As an EV owner (well, a 2014 nissan leaf, but it counts!) my biggest problem with fast chargers is just how many of them are broken or occupied by gas cars/cars that aren't charging. Absolutely infuriating when you're relying on them
Especially in a leaf, because Chademo chargers are so much more rare than CCS
I would block them in.
Most ICEing incidents are imo political statements from uneducated assholes.
I'm sure a towing company would love the business of a contract with an EV charging network
2012 Leaf owner- I never quick charge. I probably have done it 6 times in 8 years of owning the car. If I need to drive farther, I take our F150. Love the leaf though- saves us so much $$. 1 cent per mile.
As an avid EV road tripper, this is a great intro learning video to DC fast charging. Just the practical information and they "why's" that match them. LOVE Plugshare! My favorite DCFC is the Electrify America station at the Corvette museum - you can go across the highway and take your car to lose a couple laps against a corvette, then you can immediately charge back up to do it again!
As an ex electronics tech, these voltage and current numbers are eye watering. It just goes to show even more how impressive hydrocarbons are as a store of energy.
If you ignore the whole “planet-destroying, toxic emissions thing” hydrocarbon fuels are pretty awesome.
@@ouch1011 What toxic emissions?
@@cambridgemart2075 lmao bruh look into anything considered a VOC, and then look at a used car (aged emissions control) and its outputs. then think of bad actors who purposely run rich or otherwise extra-pollute
@@cambridgemart2075 NOX CO2 both in sufficient quantities can kill you both are greenhouse gases (ie contribute to global warming because it insulates the planet.
@@imakedookie But fossil fuel powered vehicles don't emit VOCs, so what's your point?
When I was a kid in the 60’s and 70’s I remember my parents planning road trips. How far to the next gas station hotels camp grounds where to eat etc. Everything was thought out ahead of time. We haven’t had to do that for a very long time with the plethora of gas stations hotels etc. Electric car road trips bring us back to those days, at least for now.
In contrast, Alex from Technology Connections did a nice video highlighting the benefits of Level1 and Level2 charging at home. Also worth checking out.
THANK YOU for explaining *why* the EV6's charge curve is so much better than my Model 3! I never realized that the *reason* that the amperage being halved due to the voltage doubling causes the heat to be *quartered*. That makes so much sense!
There is one thing he forgot. That is battery pre conditioning. I have a M3P. If pre conditioned and below 20% it charges over 1000 Mph at first with the curve. In 20 Min it adds 200 miles. Also missing is how the cables are cooled with liquid coolant. This allows the heat that is generated from high amperage to cool off the connection cord.
@@skywave12 CCS charging cables are also liquid-cooled. But yeah, the EV6 and Ionqi 5 not having preconditioning is a major failure on Hyundai/Kia's part.
It's amazing the changes that have happened to you, Robert.
From an Android Developer needing to drive close to an hour to work with a hobby of making some videos about interesting cars.
To now, where you are one of the best CarTubers out there, you're able to do things like make a EV Sleeper Ford Escape, or convert a school bus into an RV/Car Hauler Franken-bus, or even make videos like this, breaking down incredibly complicated, nuanced, and confusing topics like DC Fast-Charging, giving us more consideration to get an EV or not.
Keep on rolling, Robert.
Alec's (multiple) videos about EV charging were informative. They provide a significant amount of information.
Your videos tell me what I absolutely need to know in a way that makes it easy to understand.
Both are valuable. Your and Alec should find more subjects where he can do a deep dive and you can help us understand. Call it "technology connections for dummies"
I just rewatched Alec's videos. They are mostly focused on home charging installations/recommendations for people new to EV world. His video on DC fast charging is about the technology behind them. What Robert is covering here is a different issue for people with different questions and doubts.
I can't even begin to comprehend the amount of time and research this video took.
Probably the most straightforward video for understanding how EV charging works. Thanks!
I have experienced Superchargers being out or silently derating the charge current as well, but it's always been limited to one charger or one charging cabinet. Switching from 1A to 1B or 1A to 2A has always fixed the problem unless the entire area is in a power outage.
Great video! I've been driving EV's for 6 years now.. and you explained everything perfectly! It's rare to find an EV video this accurate and clearly explained.
Even though I won't own an EV for probably atleast another decade this was still very interesting and most of all informative. Great!
I won't own because there not really saving no money owning one.
Why do you think it'll take so long for you to own an EV?
Hopefully by then the charging situation for long distance travel will be simpler. On the other hand EVs like mine with a comically small battery are very easy to live with for daily commute/errands with just plugging it in every night to a regular wall outlet.
@@metromadness2016 Well, you are and you aren't. You'll save a ton of money on fuel and maintenance over the course of the car's lifetime... but at least for now, you'll pay a pretty big premium to buy the car in the first place. So it probably doesn't quite even out today, especially after the major price hikes in recent years. But eventually EV prices will come down to the same level as ICE car prices, and then it'll be a financial no-brainer to buy an EV over an ICE.
@@coredumperror too much money and I hate everything about modern cars. I have nothing against electric cars specifically they’re cool and very fast, but new cars suck and are ugly.
Biggest reason is they’re so expensive lol how am I supposed to buy an electric car
I love it!
agree! I only use AC charging. I'm a bit lucky as my workplace lets me plug the car into the wall all day. I'm told that avoiding DC charging will keep my battery healthier for longer.
unless you drive a LEAF you'll never notice it... unless you keep the car for 20 years or more or something
@@Turk380 maybe so - but all the electrical engineers with EVs limit even their slow at-home charging to the lowest rate the car will let them, to charge with the lowest possible battery damage.
@@jackthelad9933 It's not AC vs DC charging which makes a difference but rather the charge rate. This distinction doesn't matter with today's charging stations but in the future things might be different. I can imagine cars slow charging via DC from solar panels.
@@eDoc2020 interesting. Thanks.
I absolutely love how you ended this video!
I'm going to buy a new car sometime this year. It will very likely be an EV. I just need to decide if I'm going to keep my gasser around for those "but sometimes..." situations. I mean, a dealer won't give me any decent money for a 15 year old rusted Honda anyway, so it's a matter of if I feel it's worth keeping it registered and ready to go. But I know that for >=95% of the time, the EV will be less of a hassle for me.
Honestly that outro is so accurate. It's not fair to look at the charging network and go "EVs are useless and stupid and we should just give up on them" but if you don't want to deal with it, fine.
If you have access to at-home (or maybe lvl2+ at work) then unless you're doing a road trip, you could very well never use a DC charging station.
That said, the charging infrastructure definitely needs a lot of work, and will continue to improve as more and more EVs get out on the roads. (I hope, anyways)
Also, Tesla has been saying for _so long_ that they're going to finally open up the supercharging network, how the crap have they _still_ not done that? Get it together, guys.
I cannot believe you packed so much knowledge and information into 18 minutes. Thank you for this video, this was a lot of good things to know.
he's great at that the mans a magician
Thanks for the information. I think I could live with an EV most of the time as a daily driver.
Someone needs to start targeting attractions like caves, parks, etc. near interstates and roads to install EV chargers. It would increase the traffic to the attractions and give travelers the opportunity to make their charging time more productive.
Picking up my new Bolt EV this afternoon. I am 100% aware if the issues with it's slower charging capability. Will charge at home 99% of the time, so it will be fine for me.
I’ve owned 2 Bolts (a 2019 EV and a 2022 EUV). They’re brilliant cars. Yes, they DC charge slowly, but if you know this and plan ahead, it’s basically a non-issue. For every other usage, they’re lightyears better than any similar ICE vehicle.
Charge it each night you should be fine.
@@metromadness2016 That is my plan.
Used a Public Charger for the first time today! When I pulled up, the only available at the time was the Level 2 charger and it would have taken me 4 hours to charge. I gave up after 30 minutes, but luckily, one of the Fast Chargers became available, so I switched and went from 42% to 80% in 22 minutes (2023 KIA Niro EV). Now, once I get my home charger installed in a couple of weeks (Level 2), I'll charge overnight or in the early AM. I won't care if it takes 4 hours at home, I have solar roof panels.
Thank you for creating an excellent video.
There are some things I would like to add.
1. DC fast charging shorten the life of the battery. EV batteries are half the price of the vehicle, do you really want to shorten their life?
2. You mentioned that a lot of the charging stations are broken. In large urban cities those charging stations won't last 24 hours before they are vandalized.
3. You said that when you connect to a charging station, don't walk away. Check to see if it is actually fast charging. Ok, but what do you do if it's not fast charging?
4. Most people don't want to be a techno geek to fill their vehicle when away from home. And most people don't what to wait 20 to 60 minutes to get an 80% charge. We will never get the majority of Americans to convert to EVs until these issues are resolved.
5. Who is Kyle Conner?
The reason a lot of charging stations reduce power is they use shared supplies which can't deliver full output to all the charging points at the same time. If there is too much demand, they will de-rate.
I'd like to note also, this is why I avoided the Bolt. I don't think Chevy realized this is going to come back to bite them long term. One might say that the DC fast charging infrastructure is currently lacking, but given time, it's going to explode. The problem with the Bolt is the maximum DC fast charge rate is 50 kW. So it essentially eliminates it as any form of a road-trip car. This may be a small portion of all trips in an automobile, but by not having it, you take out a very important ability that people expect in modern automobiles.
I 100% agree
@@agingwheels I got a reply from Robert!
(Faint's like a girl at a Frank Sinatra concert...)
Oh thank goodness, you mentioned our car in your video (Kia Niro EV). No one--including Chargepoint and our insurance company--seems to realize that they exist... Yay, we're not insane! (probably) Great info in this video, much appreciated.
As a non EV driver I find this video very informative and the information well presented. Thanks!
Right there with you. I enjoy these videos, but I’ll never own one of these damn electrotronical contraptions. I understand carburetors, injection pumps, even basic efi stuff. Guess I’m just stuck in the past, and I’m okay with that.
LOVE the last line in this!!! There will come a day I want an EV. That is not today. Please keep updating us on this so maybe the day I want one will get here.
You can also activate those Charge point chargers if your debit/credit card supports tap to pay.
But I super agree, they don't tell you that and all the apps are so annoying.
I was hoping that would be the case, since that’s what that symbol is supposed to mean. Nice to see confirmation though
@@kaitlyn__L Yeah, that won't work on the EA chargers or the EVGo ones. Those you need *their* membership card.
But chargepoint chargers will kick on with your tap debit/credit card
@@play_stationer I see! Thanks.
By far the best style of video on the Tube- finally someone who actually can edit content to be concise informative and a little funny too and yet correct misinformation.
Liked and subscribed.
Can’t believe it took me this long to find it!
From the UK, a small country by US standards, I basically agree. The charging infra-structure is not there. In fact, chaotic.
Drive an EV to work, do the shopping ok; anything else becomes a major chore.
It's all about range and how long it takes to 'refuel'.
It's also the wrong technology. Hydrogen is the future.
But we could also walk and bicycle a lot more. And develop modern, efficient public transport in our towns, cities and regions.
Informative stuff though AW. Keep going!
Love and peace.
Extremely well done explanation of ev charging. The best video I've seen on ev charging. 👍
Absolutely on point about EA. Unfortunately they're 75% of the chargers within 200 miles of me. A smartphone is almost a must-have as well, since many of these require an app, have their card reader broken, etc. Other than being broken my biggest complaint about chargers is places that put them in the preferred parking spots right up by the door. Just begs to have an ICE car park there. Put 'em out back, we have lots of time to walk while the car is charging. I have a Bolt, and yeah it's not a road trip car but it's doable. We've done a few trips, just don't be in a hurry and plan on getting lunch or going on a walk to see local sights or something while it charges -- typically 45-60 minutes for 10-80%.
The issue there is running the cable to the charger, companies are cheap and will not spend more than they absolutely have to. Running the cable only a few feet to the nearest parking spot is much cheaper than boring under the entire parking lot.
One of my issues is how many chargers are inaccessible. I’d have to pick between the disabled spot and the charging spot!
I don’t see why they don’t just build _most_ of out the way but have one or two in the disabled zone. Heck the EA chargers in this video are basically built like that anyway with the extra space, which I don’t see at chargers over in the UK. I’d be amazed if the disabled spots at that store weren’t right next to those ones in this video, or if they even took a few away for the chargers.
Given various statistics say disabled people are like 10-20% of the population, and many are dependent on cars even in places with good public transport infrastructure (and often travel more to appointments and specialists), you’d think the charger companies would want to ensure that segment of the market could use their chargers!
And I suppose the EA ones in this video are… if only incidentally.
I just finished renting a Polestar 2 (larger battery pack) here in Australia. Really loved the vehicle. Great performance, easy to drive, loved it all around.
The only weird thing was the charge time estimate was completely broken. I was using my 240v/10A household outlet. The car told me it would be charged at 7:30am. I checked at 10am, and it was far from finished. Said the new time was 12:30pm. Checked at 12:30pm... and the time had blown out to 2:30pm. A full SEVEN hour error. And this was slow charging at 2.3kWh where the car doesn't slow down charging.
Such impressive film work. A seamless script filmed in a half dozen locations at once.
What would we do without you. your research, is to say the least, extremely thorough. your delivery is easy to follow and amusing . Not only this one which is fabulous for me, because I'm not an EV fan, because now I know as much as I need to know to hold an informed discussion with other folk in my situation. Recently I reccommended your video about thicknessers because like everything you do it was thorough and fabulous. I said this before you are so marketable and I love watching your videos . Well Done
My car fills up overnight without any effort on my part other than plugging it in. I don't care how long it takes because I'm sleeping, and it's always full in the morning. I never have to stop at "fuel stations" and worry about gas prices, nor do I worry about anything said in this video because I drive less than 4 hours per day.
Honestly, never *needing* to stop at a gas station is a huge quality of life improvement that you don't realize until you've gone EV, then have to use a gas car. I have saved far more time by skipping gas stations in my daily life, than I lose with the extra/longer stops on road trips. It's a net gain for me.
I never thought I would want an EV but your videos have answered a lot of my questions and have me thinking about my next purchase being an EV.
Hands down the best video out there, if you want to dive deeper into the technical details of how charging works.
Absolutely fantastic video. You and Alec are doing a great service with the information you are presenting. Love the channel. Keep it up!
He threw a lot of figures at you very quickly and then said don't buy an EV !
I think he was a bit smug.
@Travis Ash Yes, he presented a lot of information in a clear and concise manner. However, he only said not to buy one if you feel that having to keep this information about charging in mind is not appealing.
I know all this, but I think this was all very well explained. Perhaps the best overall explanation available anywhere.
I love the work that went into scripting this video. As the info flows naturally, the sites change from one to the next.
Fun stuff!
I love that you are covering these topics in an approachable way. As a former Tesla employee, you're doing a much better job than most employees could.
Also, as 2022 bolt owner, I take your jab at its shit-tastic charging speed due to fire go boom on the chin. Still a fucking great daily EV. Damn is good.
I hate public DC and AC chargers. These companies need help and need regulations on maintaining them by the F384king company and not the site.
BTW very helpful with the battery voltage and Amps. Very helpful.
The charging speed of the bolt really doesn't have anything to do with the battery defects. That's a factor of the onboard hardware (cabling). The software limit to 80% for many cars does.
@@tjsean0308 The retrofit battery pack and changes made due to cell failures and electronic (BMS) to prevent previous issue do not have anything to do with charging speed is correct, but jokes aren't always 100% truthful. however, that does go towards the conversation of nominal pack voltage, amps, and sustained charged rate, which the Bolt kind a sucks nuts at. LVL1&2 charging is best with the Bolt. The Bolt doesn't have a charging limit for 80%, my assumption many CCS vehicles don't due to dual charging ability's. My 2016 KIA Soul did until a 2021 update to BMS opened the battery to 100% access and removed the 80% limit to 92%
Thanks for sharing! I think that last bit at the end is the most important part - the range of EVs are so high these days that they are perfect commuter cars - and most of the people buying them will rarely charge at rapid charging stations - most of the charging can be done at home for daily use!
One thing to add about the Tesla Superchargers, the current V3 units have a liquid cooled cable to increase the current carrying capability while making the cable itself smaller in diameter vs the V2 units. The upcoming V4 Superchargers will take this a step further by combining the cooling tubes and the current conductors into the same cable/tube letting the coolent come directly into contact with conductors.
This is the most informative video on electric cars I've ever seen. Magnificent job, man!
Last statement of the video... Pure gold!
European Teslas use CCS and most of the superchargers are open to other ev's too, but they are quite expensive.
Important to note that it's CCS Type 2 in Europe rather than CCS Type 1, as the Type 2 AC connector supports three phase.
I really hope that these issues improve over the next five years. Things have definitely changed for the better from five years ago. However, if I bought a car today I absolutely would not buy an EV. I would still buy a car fueled by gasoline. I will be delighted if my answer changes in five years. I always enjoy watching the current state of affairs and it looks like things are coming along. I'm just not ready to buy. That's why I clicked "Like" on this video and keep watching this channel.
The government is using this to scam people into believing there are environmental benefits that do not exist.
honestly, it’s probably the same for me unless and until I can charge in the basement of my building, or if they build a fast charger right next door to my building.
Right now, for those who don't want to deal with the issues Robert mentioned with DC fast charging, a Plug-In Hybrid EV is a fantastic option. If you can charge every day at home or at work, and you don't have an especially long commute (most PHEVs offer 35+ miles of EV range), a PHEV will run fully electric 95% of the time. And you'll have the gasoline engine for when you need to drive longer distances than a daily commute.
Unless you're road tripping all over the country all the time (and be honest with your self there how often you do that) this is mostly a non-issue. It's better to think about it like charging your phone; you occasionally need to do it out but you charge at home every night when you sleep so it's not an issue.
That said if you cant charge at home, DO NO BUY AN EV. It would be a miserable experience, and will be so for the foreseeable future.
@@wehooper4
> It would be a miserable experience
Not necessarily. If you can charge at work, or at a public level 2 charger that's walking distance from your house, or you live/work near enough to a DC fast charger to use it like a gas station, it'd be fine.
Glad I stayed to the end because the “OK don’t buy one” is an idea and framing I’d love to see/hear so much more.
WOW! Amazingly done. Concise, fast, filled with excellent information. You go!
I use an EV every day as a rideshare driver. But I've had difficulty finding how to travel with it. The web site you listed looks great. I think I will take a chance with it and see how well I can travel. Thanks for that.
Living and working in Seattle, I'm solidly convinced that 90 percent of Tesla Model 3s are sold to Uber drivers.
@@SimuLord there are benefits to going EV for ride share... for sure.
@@SimuLord I work in tech. The single most popular make in my parking garage is Tesla. So many Teslas. They're not cheap either. Tesla is a tech company that happens to make cars. They're the Apple of the car industry. Proprietary connectors, rabid fans who will defend the poor quality to the death, glitchy software, look unique while being featureless, sells a dull interior as a good thing.
@@bwofficial1776 man I hate tesla too but the cars are pretty cool. built badly though.
having sold teslas previously and not really needing to know too much about the DC-Fast system, this video is extremely informative
Does it also make you realize that Tesla hurts EV adoption massively by creating a walled garden system of chargers??
@@Konarcoffee they only do thus in the US (which is 4% of the world’s population). In other countries (Europe for example) they (were forced to) open their charging network to other brands… it’s the same with apple and usb c.
Yours is the best, most comprehensive, coverage of EV charging that I have seen in the past 3 years. Amazing. I think I'll go sign up to your patreon now.
This is one of the best EV-related UA-cam videos Ive seen. Thanks!
Is that charging unit from a Chevy Volt or from a Coda that got it from a Chevy Volt that you omitted mentioning because it simplifies things? 😁
"This charger is from a Chevy volt, and i got it from my dead codas butt" no idea if true but funny to imagine
@@Kahrak the volt used the same delphi charger as the coda
Man I love your sense of humor. Really enjoyed your closing statement XD
Great video Robert 👍
It's refreshing to here the 'basics' explained in a very clear and informative way. Ideal for folk who are baffled by the numbers, the science and the misinformation that seems to surround the emerging world of EVs.
Also, the ending was great! 👍🤣
This is a lot of info-in a very “crash course” format. But very helpful to people who don’t know! I’ve shown a lot of people this video, and they all go “OHHH”. Great work :)
The Kyle reference was priceless. And the presentation was excellent. And A Better Route Planner is awesome. Excellent close too. For my part, I only recommend EVs as a second car. Well, unless the buyer is looking at a Tesla.
What was the joke? I heard it but didn't understand it.
@@tomcardale5596 Kyle Conner, Out of Spec reviews, who regularly pushes EVs to the point that he's pushing them up to the charger.
@@TKevinBlanc thanks :)
I just checked and it seems in Ontario (at least near me) chargers are based on a minute rate.
That seems to create an incentive to keep the chargers at lower capacities.
You won't really be using those anyway (at least if you charge at home)
This was an awesome video man, love the style, love the detail, all in all good job
You have, hands down, the best way to explain absolutely everything.
Incredibly informative and clears up a lot of the quirks about it. Haha, and yeah, the very end statement is kinda true - complicated at this time. I imagine a decade from now with better batteries, better charge networks and more unified standards, it will all be a little less complicated.
I've never been stranded even once in a gasoline vehicle, so I don't think getting stranded in an ev even once could be considered "pretty good". That being said, I'm eagerly awaiting the day that EV alternatives are as cheap and reliable as a gas vehicle. Maybe someday we'll have those charging strips like f-zero
I'm not sure that EV are less reliable than gas vehicles. The non-engine part is usually made of the same bits than gas cars so reliability should be the same, and the electric engine and battery side has less parts and so in theory should be more reliable.
However you're dead with the "cheap". Save for the Dacia EV in Europe, (and Coda in the US :D ) there aren't many cheap sedan-sized EV I know of.
Also one concern of mine is battery life and battery replacement issues. What if my battery pack fails and the car maker says "Sorry, we don't make those batteries anymore AND we do not allow 3rd party batteries in the pack?"
You nailed the video and I love the pace of all your video's. Thank you.
This is such a great video. After my wife got her Mini Se last year and loving it (except the fast-charging on such a small battery), I'm very much looking forward to my Polestar 2 being delivered next month. You hit all the real frustration points while still being positive about the tech (as I am).
Great video
I have an EV6 and have done some road trips with it. What's really infuriating about the EA stations is that when they start out working fine, they can still fail in the middle of the charge and when that happens, they start their 10 minute countdown to idle fees.. So far, I've caught it both times (by monitoring the apps) before the 10 minutes was up.
Wow that’s awful. Idle fees should be for wilful overstaying ONLY
Does the app at least give you a notification when that happens?
@@Ruffhouse789 I don't think so. The app for the car will let me know that charging has stopped.
Perfect ending for the perpetually unhappy anti ev brigadiers ‘don’t buy one’
Really helpful overview for beginners, you got as technical as necessary but avoided detail that would overcomplicate it. And for me as experienced EV driver in Europe it was still interesting to see some of the differences between the US and here :)
I have no interest in buying an Electric vehicle. However, i still loved the video. Every time you talk about EVs i learn more about them. Keep up the good work.
Differences in Europe:
- Most DC chargers are quite reliable here already, it was hell like 3 years ago.
- credit card payments are quite rare here, mostly you use an app or just an RFID tag.
- Tesla superchargers are open to all cars, they opened them some time ago and since Teslas in europe already use CCS, it was easy.
- Prices vary but have gone up. On chargers over 100kW, minute-based pricing is quite usual, ranging from 30-50 cents per minute, with Ionity being about 0,70c per minute. This varies HUGELY with country, Finland is really cheap, where Sweden and Norway are really expensive.
- Atleast in the north, battery heating is incredibly important, because otherwise in the winter you'll be struggling to break 50kW with a car that can do 135kW in the summer.
Europe is really the best market for an EV, plenty chargers that work, and relatively small distances compared to the US.
"Tesla superchargers are open to all cars, they opened them some time ago and since Teslas in europe already use CCS, it was easy."
As of a few months ago Tesla had to pause the pilot program because it was running afoul of laws requiring the dispensers to have a display on them showing the price and amount of product dispensed. Tesla superchargers do not have a screen, so naturally they did not comply with that law.
it was also a lot easier in Europe because Tesla was required to use the EU standard (J-1772 Type 2, aka "Mennekes") from the start. The US superchargers use a different, proprietary connector and protocol. It won't be easy...
@@Smidge204 Those legal troubles are local to a specific country? Atleast in finland there is no issue, and almost no chargers display their price on them, it's only in the app just like Tesla. And even in Europe, old superchargers use the NACS proprietary plug, with new ones having CCS. Those old superchargers aren't open to the public, since they can't be used by anything else than an old Model S or X
@@MKVD Alright let's get the pedantic part out of the way: They do not use "NACS" in Europe. By definition, "NACS" stands for "North American Charging Standard" and that "standard" didn't even exist until a few months ago.
Anyway, back to the important bits.
I'm pretty sure the law regarding displays on dispensers was specific to Germany, but I'd have to dig up the old articles to confirm. Dispensers without displays were previously acceptable because it was a closed ecosystem that only Tesla vehicles could use, but opening the network up to the public triggered compliance requirements. I'm sure they're working on a compromise, if the issue isn't resolved already...
As for the EU connector type; Back in January 2013 the European Commission set a mandate that **all** EVs sold in the EU must use the J-1772 Type 2 connector, commonly referred to as "Mennekes" after the company that designed it. If there exists any Tesla vehicles or superchargers with the original, proprietary connector, they were in Europe prior to 2013-2014.
@@Smidge204 The mandated Mennekes plug only refers to the ”AC part” of the charging connector, which is why cars like the Nissan Leaf with Chademo for DC charging still exist and are sold in europe. Older Teslas with their proprietary plug can either be retrofitted with a CCS plug by a service center or use an adapter for CCS or even Chademo.
10 to 80% is also done to increase the battery's lifespan. Batteries really don't like being at 0 or 100%, and by not going under 10%, or over 80% you significantly reduce the wear on it (like, by a LOT)
That applies to NMC setups but a lot of EVs are switching to LiFePO4 which at least supposedly tolerates deep cycles without a substantial lifespan penalty (Hyundai's 800V platform uses NMC, Teslas are mixed but moving towards LFP, most Chinese brands use LFP because Chinese battery manufacturers are market leaders in LFP but not that great at NMC batteries etc etc)
@@bosstowndynamics5488 they tolerate it better, but no battery is really truly happy with it. The main difference is NMC battery controllers just add extra padding, so “0%” is actually 10-20%. And LFP just needs less padding (that’s not to guarantee every manufacturer is running them any lower though).
Heck in the early Priuses, indicated-0% was actually 50%, and indicated-100% was 60%! So the electric range could’ve been 10x higher, but Toyota wanted to ensure they didn’t die after a couple years. In the second or third generation they increased it to IIRC 30% and 70% which helped, but still.
@@bosstowndynamics5488 That's not true, LiFePo4 are susceptible too to deep charges and discharges. They're just more resilient in general, so even if you abuse them they're gonna last longer than standard Li-Ion... but you're still wasting a few hundred cycles.
@@kaitlyn__L Yeah, I'm going to need a source for that claim about the Prius - first and second gen Priuses at the very least used nickel metal hydride batteries which definitely don't have the same wear characteristics as small cycle loving lithium NMC batteries (NiMH actually prefers having a deep cycle every now and then, older NiCd batteries even required it), and more importantly weigh *a lot* more, so you generally can't afford to leave any capacity on the table. Such a shallow cycle depth would have been very wasteful.
@@bosstowndynamics5488 the claim comes from Big Car’s Prius documentary. Feel free to check it out and leave a comment about it! IIRC he puts references for claims but I cba checking how extensive that goes. He did indeed mention it was NiMH at least. Since I’m aware that lead-acid batteries hate going below 50%, I didn’t question it.
Edit; come to think of it I do recall wondering, but then thinking about how most small NiMH cells stop powering devices once they hit 2.2-2.3V, peaking at 2.4-2.5 when fully charged, but their actual discharge state is 2.1V. So most use cases don’t go below… 20%, 30%? But that was all just pondering and back of the napkin stuff, I didn’t look anything up.
Very good summary. Snappy. Gets what you need to know out way quicker than any of the sources that I learned this crap from. Thanks.
Great Video!
The presented issues with the chargers were one major factor, why i went with a model 3 sr+ back in 2018 (combined with the lack of alternatives back then)
YAYE!! He is back
As much as I really LOVE your channel and videos, I disagree on the 400V/800V discussion!
The 400V do not limit the AVERAGE charging power on a car, only mostly the PEAK. But in the end, it comes down on cell chemistry and also mainly actually on how willing the car manufacturer is to torture those cells. It would be easy for e.g. Tesla to roll out an update that doubles the average charging power but then the cells in the battery pack would degrade... A LOT....!
Therefore yes, 800V is good to reduce charging losses and eventually provide more MAXIMUM PEAK charge speed but will NOT make your car charge faster on average!
Also from your example: actually the Hyundai Ioniq 5's battery is not at 800V, it's at 400-500V. 800V is only used to transfer the energy from the (external) charger to the car but is then stepped down before connecting to the battery.
I mean.. think of it the other way: if it plainly had an 800V battery pack and the charger would be directly connected... then even at 50% state of charge (around... 600V then, estimated?) you still could not charge AT ALL on a 400V DC charger. :)
And... this is coming from someone who just wants to be part of your explainations and really, REALLY..... R-E-A-L-L-Y LOVES BOTH of your channels and not from some know-it-all-a-hole! :D :)
Erm... Not so much. Nothing you said is technically _wrong_ as far as I'm aware, it's just that none of this happens in a vacuum. _Because_ the higher voltage requires less amperage, it puts less wear and tear on all components, from the transformer to the cable to the battery cells. Therefore a higher-voltage car is almost certain to charge faster. You're correct that the causality isn't "because it's higher voltage it can charge faster", but _functionally_ for the purposes of his video and the information it's trying to portray, that's identical to "because it's higher voltage the amperage is lower at an equivalent charge rate, which means the heat is lower, which means the wear-and-tear is lower, which means the manufacturers of both the car and the charge point can set each to be capable of charging faster, so it will probably charge faster in most cases."
Wait... actually, he said all that.
So, with the _full_ logic in place, no, Tesla most certainly _could not_ "easily" roll out an update that would double average charging power... _because_ the cells in the battery pack would degrade, and they'd have to upgrade all the charge points with thicker cables and more overbuilt transformers and boosters and other components, and that doesn't sound very easy at all, now, does it?
Also, _maybe_ I'm overestimating the average learnedness of a typical human, but I think it's generally understood that the nominal voltage of a battery/charger system is only a broadly general category. An ICE car uses a "12-volt" battery and circuit to run the car's electronics and to start the car. But really, it's a ~12.6 volt battery that drops down to anywhere from 10 to 12 volts depending on how much load it's under, the temperature, its state of charge and health, etc, that is charged by an alternator putting out ~14.4 volts, but... mostly nobody cares.
In any case, most (almost all) charge points output whatever voltage the car needs, _up to_ 800 volts, so yes, an 800 volt vehicle can charge at them. If that wasn't the case, then you definitely couldn't charge an Ioniq 5 at a 400 volt station, since its battery runs (depending on exact model and geographical area) anywhere from mid-500's to 700 volts, and if you tried to charge a 400 volt vehicle at an 800 volt charger, it would light itself on fire. xD
I _think_ it's the car that's in charge, and tells the charger what it wants. I think. I could be wrong, though.
I think your confused about the Ioniq 5's battery. I actually own one with the 77kWh battery and its actual BMS reported nominal voltage at 100% SOC is 794V(i.e. its a 800V battery). It uses the rear motor/inverter to step up a 400V DC supply to 800V or it can accept 800V directly if the DC charger is capable.
@@barefootalien A few points. :)
Yes, less wear and tear, sure, because less charging loss because lost power goes down squared by the current so half the current => quarter the charge loss. Agreed. So less losses with 800V!
But that does not at all mean that continuously charging faster is not possible on 400V. A 400V system could very easily supply 200kW continuously(400V/500A continuously! No thicker cables needed.) which no battery pack can take currently. So yeah, 800V is currently NEVER the reason why a car can charge faster, because 400V is currently easily capable of "out-supplying" the battery packs in cars.
While, agreed, it would be more efficient at 800V. ;)
And also yes, Tesla could easily update the charge curve as proved in the past because there were already "stronger" charging curves in place in the past but they chose to reduce it to reduce degradation on the cells. But that has nothing to do with 400V/800V.
Also e.g. the Taycan charges with a very flat curve, yet you can enable a "battery safing charging mode" which strongly "reduces" the charging curve to reduce degradation on the cells. So yeah. Some manufacturers just choose to "be cool now" and let people enjoy more charge speed during early life of the car, others want their cars to last longer.
And yes, therefore the car CAN limit the power received as can the charger.
I recommend TeslaBjorns youtube video where he got a tour at KemPower charger manufacturer. They explain and showcase these things very well.
Yet, big point of what you said regarding stress/wear&tear on the cells with 800V systems...
400V/800V do NOT AFFECT the cells. Li-Ion cells operate at 4.2 - 3.7 Volts. They don't know a thing about 400V or 800V. And the cells itself are where degradation ONLY happens. So degradation has nothing to do with voltage.
@@biboKralle It does, though... yes, each cell operates at a low voltage. That's why they're connected in a parralel array of series blocks.
As I understand it, when you charge the battery, you are applying more voltage to it, in reverse, than the battery itself produces. Otherwise the battery would just "push back" against the charging voltage, and no reaction would occur.
That charging voltage goes through exactly the same sequence of pathways that it did coming out to power the car, so if you over-volt the battery by a factor of two, then each cell gets, say, 10 volts instead of 5, and you most certainly _can_ shorten their lifespan, damage them, light them on fire, or even make them explode.
On a less extreme level, if you trickle-charge with just a few hundred millivolts over nominal voltage, the cell charges very slowly, heat is dissipated easily, along with some other effects (crystal deposition patterns, etc depending on battery chemistry), and the cells last a lot longer. If you fast-charge with several volts over nominal per cell, everything happens faster. It generates more heat, and even if it isn't too much heat for the thermal management systems to handle, it still decreases overall lifespan. This is _why_ the charging curve changes longevity.
So yes, voltage most certainly does affect deterioration, not least of all because the voltage is one of two things we can actually _control._ It's what drives the current according to V=I²R. Of those three variables, we can control voltage and resistance, but not current. The system has an innate resistance (though we could add more or less with variable resistors in various ways), so mostly what we do to control the flow of current, and thus charge rate, is to control the voltage.
So you're right that it's not technically the voltage itself that degrades the cells, but with a direct proportional relationship, it's an equivalent statement.
@@barefootalien Yes, sure you can destory cells with too high voltage. But that is besides the point here!
Each cell only sees less than 5V while charging, otherwise you would more or less instantly kill them, as you also said. :)
Therefore my bottom line was: 800V does not help with cell degradation, a lower charging speed does.
And even on 400V you could charge way faster than is good for the cells.
Awesome video. Buying an EV out here in the EU and so brushing up on the info. Great video to watch to get all the info you need and none of the BS.
Absolutely loved this video. The ending was the cherry on top.
Thanks for a great video.
FYI: Tesla has opened many of their DC chargers for all cars and added CCS charge cables in Norway. I believe this has been done as a test before rolling this out everywhere.
Also, you should possibly have mentioned that ambient temperature may effect charge speed.
While you’re correct for Norway none of this applies to the North American situation, yet. And Lately Tesla has been touting its own connector, giving a lot of people the impression they may have changed their mind in terms of offering CCS1 charging at North American Superchargers.
That is a CCS2 connector in Norway (and Australia), not the CCS connector used in the USA. So, Tesla chargers will have to deal with (at least) three different plugs globally.
I would absolutely love an EV. I’m a longtime fan of Formula E, and I’ve been following the EV market for years. I just want actual performance.
Every electric car on the market is too fat and their designers give absolutely zero f***s about handling. All I want is something that can rival a good Japanese sports car, like a Honda s2000, Mazda MX-5, or Toyota GT86 (which is what I have as my daily driver). Something about 2000kg, with about 200 bhp at the rear wheels, low center of gravity (which should be super easy with batteries). Heck, I’d be fine with those two numbers creeping up slightly just so the car has a half-decent battery pack size, if that’s the compromise necessary to get something like that on the market.
The acceleration of EVs is cool if you’re coming from muscle cars and the like. It looks pretty impressive. But if you, like me, enjoy going sideways at safe, city street speeds, then there is nothing out there that can deliver that, even from people like Lotus or Porsche… presuming you could even afford them.
But it seems like all the manufacturers just want to make giant sedans or denial minivans… I mean “crossovers”. At this rate, I’ll probably just get an electric motorcycle before an electric car, if only because those are looking more promising from a performance perspective.
This has been the best way someone has explained this good job Robert
I have seen many of these videos on EV fast charging but non explained the P=I²R before, I knew current was the enemy but you're the first one to say why it's a problem. Excellently explained!
best ending. 🤓
Good. More charging for us.
This is a great summary of EV charging! Unfortunately an EV is not an option for me (can't afford one, mostly, but also I can't charge at home or at work and the inrastructer in general here in Germany is trash) but it's still interesting to learn about all the many different options used ^^
The charging infrastructure is definitely not trash.
Sure, it could be better, but it's already definitely usable.
@Jehty well it certainly seems to be pretty useless around here in Munich. And judging by my parents' experience (who have two electric cars) with public charging stations I wouldn't want to be entirely dependent on them, which I would have to be.
@Anne Frank Vape Pen it is natural, within natural levels.
@Anne Frank Vape Pen get outta here with that 2010 level denialism. Everyone else in the denial game has moved onto “sure it’s bad but is it really our fault?”
@@kaitlyn__L The climate has been changing since there's been a planet. We're coming out of an ice age, things are going to warm up. Plants feed on CO2.
I will send this video to people I know who need that kind of basic information. Your explanation is so good a 8 year old kid will understand. Thank you for good educational content.
Fantastic explanations that I couldn’t find anywhere else. Thank you!
Tesla receiving Billions of tax payers' money in government support and not opening up their super chargers is a total BS.
Your awesome dude love your content
You deserve an award for explaining this. Thank you.
I rememeber some years ago there was concern about developing the EV infrastructure.
I live in Norway and we have most EV's per capita in the world.
But the people that invested in Fast Charging stations complained that they were hardly used, especially out of tourist season.
Because with comuting distances you frankly don't need to use one, most EV's can handle 100 miles even in winter without a charge and no stress.
So a charge station dosen't have the same demand as a gas pump, using one is just such a rare occurance.
Not to mention, workplaces and hotels often provides a home charge point or possibility to plug in the AC adapter, but those aren't really publicly available.
So when you actually find yourself in need of one you could be in the worst possible stretch...unless you have a Tesla though...those are damn near everywhere.
Out of curiosity, how does fast charging impact battery life? The big question I have is yeah convenience wise these are great but how does it impact overall battery life + capacity.
@@ChaosSwissroIl Yeah, maybe stop spreading misinformation.
The reason your phones battery is negatively affected is mainly due to heating, as it is not very easy to remove heat from your phone, and the battery chemistry in phone batteries is also made to have very high density, at the expense of lifetime (Most phones are changed within 2-4 years).
EV's have battery management systems that will monitor the charging and most EV's have active cooling, where coolant is circulated to keep the battery temperature under control. If the battery is very cold, very warm or very low on power or nearly full, the battery charging will be controlled to keep the battery at the optimal charge speed, without damaging it.
Yes, Fast charging might be a bit more "damaging" to the batteries, compared to slow charging at home, but most charging is usually done in the driveway or garage, at night, at a slow pace, and then you start off your day with a "full tank". The average user will do 90%+ of their charging at home.
If you stop charging at 80% or so, the effect is basically negligible. If the car has a well tuned battery management system (BMS) then even going to 100% on DCFC will be roughly the same as going to 100% on the much slower AC plug... but it will accomplish that by slowing down charging, hence the whole charging curve thing.
The problem is heat, and heat at high state of charge is especially bad. Every car I can think of except the Nissan LEAF has an actively cooled battery pack to mitigate the heat from fast charging, and all vehicles with a competent BMS will reduce charging speed if the pack gets too hot. Car manufacturers understand the problems and take steps to reduce warranty claims :)
So go ahead and DCFC whenever you need; not a big deal.
Is the protective cling film still on that display at 1:38? Opportunity for a peel asmr short! 😜
Thanks for the very informative video! Between you and Alec I feel much better more knowledgeable about the angry pixies recharging thing.
How did you post 19 minutes ago, when the video was posted a minute ago? youtube is sooo broken! >
@@hardimchard Timey-wimey weird things happening. 😆
Wiibbly wobbly UA-cam
@@hardimchard How do people still not know about videos being posted early to patreon?
I just found your channel! EXCELLENT explanation of charging. Also, I am in STL! Glad to see another STL EV owner!!
Also, an avid viewer of Out of Spec.
I don’t plan on owning an EV for a very long time because I want to keep my current car as long as possible. Despite that, I will watch this video along with every Technology Connections electric-car related video and some other nerdy miscellaneous electric car videos and I will enjoy it.