I can't help but laugh at the fact that I'm a straight man watching a video of two straight men talking about whether or not straight people should attend pride events
i think the difference between black spaces and queer spaces is that one is, what they call in canada, a visible minority. people of all walks of life can be queer to different degrees. seeing the straight bfs of bi girls at pride means allowing straight men to explore and be comfortable in their masculinity as opposed to feeling like THEY need to conform to heteronormativity. whats the point of pride if its not for everyone who supports the community? sexuality and gender have always been fluid. trying to reinforce an in vs out group only boxes us in further instead of unity
@@danic2514im saying that anybody can be queer, regardless or how they look, so its silly to try and gatekeep based on an outwardly heterosexual couple at pride. black spaces and racial politics have ALWAYS been about the visual appearances of people, which sparks its own discussions about nuance and creating separate spaces for people to feel safe in. basically, i dont think its useful to compare these on the same level since they are very different issues
@@danic2514 I get what you mean but for a lot black we know when someone is black. It's just your skin color but things like hair texture helps us say "oh that's a light skinned black person."
There's also the very necessary mom hugs. There are women who attend who give mom hugs bc there are ppl who come to PRIDE who come from homes they were rejected from. Those women are usually straight allies and provide a necessary comfort to abandoned queer youth.
@@atlassolid5946my mom and dad wore “free mom/dad hugs” at this year’s pride. A gaggle of moms were trying to recruit my dad because he was only one they saw with that shirt, that there was a lack of dad hugs being given out. Unfortunately, it was so hot we couldn’t stay long (we were just doing a lap), or else he would’ve
They won't bother y'all because y'all aren't seen as representations of the patriarchy. Misandry is the norm within the connected communities. I'm glad y'all are able to spread the love though, keep it up.
True, which really sucks because pride out where I live this year was just about exclusively corporate booths saying "we are ok with the gays, here, have some rainbow beads or a pen or something." And cops all over the place. Plus side was we only had one pathetic, sad little protester with 20 signs he was trying to manage by himself...
as a bi guy, i think its a bit strange that people are saying bfs of bi women arent allowed. like, you didnt have a problem with allies before this point
If bisexuals can't participate in LGBTQ pride, then what's the B in LGBTQ for? Lol The only people saying this stuff are terminally online Twitter rats.
Hmmm, so as someone who deals with quite a lot of privilege I can say this was hard for me as well. Please ask yourself how many times you have been somewhere that is uncomfortable for you because PEOPLE HATE YOU. not for anything except who you are. Now consider how many times you have sought to escape this persecutions only to be met with threats inside of your safe space. Hopefully, this is very foreign to you, but not black/brown/queer/disabled communities. CIS HET and particularly YT males are known for their hostility and aggression towards marginalized communities (see capitalisms, imperialism, the system of serfdom in medieval Europe to name a very small few. Please understand why Marginalized communities want peace and safety. SECOND, they would love allies. no one said anything against allies. However, ally does not mean a part of the community. As a non-binary YT person I've been kicked out of black and brown queer spaces which can hurt my feeling, but I'm sure that the feelings of the oppressed identities which felt the need to create such a group are much more intense. long story short maybe being an ally means stay home from pride
LGBT people are happy to see Straight people supporting them at pride, Straight people are happy to see LGBT people being themselves at pride, this is one of those 'issues' that I feel no one cares about outside of the internet.
Yeah, we have to get offline. I'm a CIS straight man and have been attending our city's Pride festivities since 2006. (I should explain, my life long best friend is gay, and invites me.) I live in a Conservative city in Canada. Once a group of men came at me as to why I was there and if I was LGBTQ. My friend had wandered over to talk to some of people she knew and was not around me, but immediately several complete strangers around me came to my defence and the crowd started to "boo" the group of men. They quickly changed course and apologized. My friend found me again later and said, "Did you hear some losers were asking people if they were gay and trying to kick people out?" I just laughed. In over 20 years that was my only issue. 😊🌈 #Pride #solidarity
i used to go to pride as a "straight ally" and now im out as nonbinary and bisexual so f*** anyone who says allies aren't welcome at pride ofc don't bring your bf if he's homophobic... but if he's homophobic and you're bi... don't date him??? break up with him immediately?????????
@@HoneycombProductions, homophobes can treat that like a challenge. You know they’re bragging to their friends later about “converting” or “saving” the bi partner
This kind of attitude is one of the reasons why it took me so long to come out as nonbinary, genderqueer. I lived as bisexual all my life and had people question why I was in straight relationships often. When I started seriously considering my gender shizz 6-7 years ago ( I'm now 34) I was terrified at the idea of my very enthusiastically accepting queer friends not believing me because I'd had such rubbish experiences from the vocal minority of gatekeepers.
Hi, fellow bi here. I just wanted to say I'm sorry that's happened to you. There are so many reasons we might be in "straight" relationships: internalized heteronormativity; a valid preference for one gender; those relationships being easier and better-accepted societally; or just happening to find cool people of the opposite sex to date. That doesn't mean anything about you as a bisexual person. I'm so glad you managed to find your sexuality and gender despite those bigots within our own community. You're right that this gatekeeping attitude is harmful -- we need supportive allies to feel welcome, and we NEED to leave room for questioning people, who may not yet identify as queer, to explore in friendly spaces like Pride without judgment. It can only help our community. Happy pride! ❤
I just started not giving a flying fuck what cringy gatekeepers and the usual straight bigot's think about my pansexuality when it comes to preserving my sanity. There will always be idiots and our spaces aren't devoid of them either. I stopped counting how often I had cool conversations with gay guys I was intimate with who found it nice that me and my girlfriend both were who we are and in a poly relationship. And we both had some really wholesome experiences with other queer people and bonding with them on different levels. At the end of the day you just need to be yourself and find a way to be nice company that works for you and just connect with people if that's your style, or just feel comfortable in your own skin, regardless what some shady bitches say on the internet, just to play who's the bigger victim.
I'm trans and TBH, those kinds of folks didn't help. I'm so fluid about all things that it was hard to even pin down that a lot of my depression was due to gender issues. But I was also scared of being accused of fakery and posing!
Speaking as a bi person, I remember a friend's spouse, a dear friend in their own right, coming out as enby. I was really proud to be one of the people they told first. In my experience, folks whose first reaction to being trusted with something like that, with coming out? They've either forgotten what it was like, or don't understand why we have Pride to begin with.
its sad that here it seems to have become just general left protest rather than pride event. like can we have 1 goddamn day without the cishet whining about the environment or some shit. they have 364 other days of the year, let us have this 1.
A lot of bisexuals have straight partners. Imagine banning them from bringing their partner while others are allowed to? Potentially their co-parent who they might want to share a family day out with? Now that whole household is barred. What does need to change is the attitude of *some* folks to treat it like a zoo, to the extent that an event or space caters more to straight people and more privileged queers. This is definitely a thing that happens. My local Pride has been transphobic and racist, so most of my social circle don't go because it's not for us or invested in our safety
There are so many other ways to encourage respect and self-awareness from cishet guests and facilitate great conversations across experience. Biphobic policies are not the way to that, imo
Like honestly I'd so much rather see either of you at Pride than any Draco Malfoy lookin' Rich Twink. You both make a verb out of allyship, and have honestly done more for our movement than a lot of privileged/complacent LGBTQ+ folks
@@EzraSprouts they are one of the many reasons we give bigots as ammunition to call us lunatics, because we can't just for once work together, instead of playing victimhood olympics online.
Annoying takes all around. My wife and I are agender, they’re bi and I’m ace. You couldn’t tell from looking at us that we’re queer at all. We’ve received this sort of gatekeeping treatment from folks who didn’t know nothing about us, assuming we weren’t queer. Tryna gatekeep queer spaces from anyone other than phobes can be harmful, isn’t worth the risk, and doesn’t have any benefits.
@@andresanguianozuniga6798 cuz it’s better than saying “Wxfe” out loud LMAO we agreed that gendered titles are okay when we’re comfortable with them. Same with “ma’am” and “sir.” Simply more convenient than coming up with some non-gendered, impossible to pronounce title.
One of the things to remember here is that the "straight boyfriend" or the "straight" in general may not... be straight. Going to Pride may awaken something inside them. They may already know they're queer and going to Pride is where they feel seen or are able to discover themselves. On the flip side, no white person goes to a Kendrick show and becomes black. Queerness is a spectrum, and it's very gatekeepy and weird to not allow people to experience the queerness that they may either be suppressing or not realize they even are yet.
Most of the people at pride in my city are straight allies (supportive aunties who wanna get drunk, girls with a gbf, etc), so this online discourse has always felt very silly. But the focus on men and bisexual women is always interesting, as is the assumption that you can tell who’s a cishet man or cis woman just by looking at them 👀
You can't look at a person and know their gender or sexuality. Unless they're being disruptive, they should be allowed to be there. I've gone to Pride with a boyfriend, and I've gone with an ex-girlfriend. I've been bi/pan the whole time, regardless of who I'm dating
When you say, "sexuality," do you mean, "sex,"(e.g. male/female)...or are you referring to innate attraction? FWIW, I would tend to disagree if it's the former(outward sexual signifiers), for the most part...but agree, for obvious reasons, if it's the latter.
no cause I see the hate yall get and as a transmasc bi dude whos about 2 seconds away from robbing my local hospital for hrt im not looking forward to it
@@ianwazowski5607 Freddie Mercury, who went on record as bi, had partners of both genders for years at a time, and got erased so hard everyone remembered him as strictly gay, despite being an international rock god. Marlon Brando and Richard Pryor were openly and vocally lovers who also liked girls, nobody talks about it. Likewise, did you know Cate Blanchett and Anna Paquin are bi? No one seems to. Literally the star of Carol and a voice actress in Euphoria, Rogue in the X-Men movies... But they don't even register as queer to the straights. Bi can mean privileged, sure, but we're also whitewashed in favor of assumptions based on current behavior, or demonized as inherently untrustworthy/more likely to cheat on partners, even now that the HIV/AIDS panic has subsided and bi dudes aren't seen as threats to the purity of afab people.
I’m sorry homie as a straight dude, nobody scared of the gay dudes, never seen one at my mma gym that’s in Chelsea nyc which is basically a gay neighborhood
@@OVO-Adolf you've got your head buried if you think gay men and lesbian women don't engage in that. the community loves muscular/strong people. you ever heard of a bear? or butch lesbians? i know butch women who are bigger and tougher than most cishet people i've ever met.
@@adamtrott78 Literally, he did all that talk not realizing that alot of gay men grow up fighting for thier lives, they will whoop your ass, that fact doesn't change because of this childish mindset that gay = feminine = weak.
This staight are not welcome to lgbta+ spaces doesn't affect only people who are straight and cis. I myself am genderqueer and bisexual, in "straightpassing" realtionship. I have been out and open about it for 17 years, and there has been maybe one time I have been in lgbta+ space without being judged as "cis and straight." "Oh, you straights wouldn't know how it is," said same person tenth time in same evenging after I had, as many times, said that I'm not straight and not even cis. It is not nice to be invalidated and questioned and it definetely doesn't make me feel very welcomed at spaces that are namely meant to include people like me. I get all this enough in straight spaces, thank you very much. I understand that comapanions, friends etc that doesn't know how to behave and might even be homophobic are not wanted. But that is a problem with invidual people, not people in general. My bestfriend is straight woman and she was often with us in gaybars when we were younger, because she was only straight in the group of five people. So is the conclusion here that we all should go in straight bar because she is not welcomed in queer spaces? Or in similar vein, should my cousin who came out as gay when he was 18, gone first time to gay bar alone because I'm too "straightpassing" and his other friends were straight. That is not safe either, because predatory people exist even in queerspaces, unfortunately. So my point is let's not exclude people because of their (assumed) identity and let's keep trying to stop bad behaviour when we see it.
I am straight. I went to pride with my friend and our kids. I went to support her. I went to represent my friend who sadly took his own life 4 years ago because he was unable to accept himself as a gay man. I went to take my kid so that she knows that I will love her regardless of sexuality or gender. I'm thankful that the pride parade in my small corner of the world was an inclusive, safe and accepting place. I'm glad my friend was able to be visible.
I a man discovered chappell roan setting up the olivia rodrigo show. Most of the people working that day including the road crew were straight men. I'm wondering how these people think concerts even happen?
plus they have no way to know if the "man" they're seeing is cis or not. they could (hypothetically) literally be misgendering a transwoman going to chapell roan who just doesn't pass. or someone who is non-binary and amab. people just don't think.
I’m gay, and I think every straight person should go to Pride at least once. At Pride, you get to see queer couples hold hands and openly show affection in mundane ways, just like any other couple, and that is often a very eye-opening and humbling experience for straight people.
People really need to check their privilege. 1. The "cis" bf might just be trans and straight and passing. 2. This person may be trans and not passing/in the closet/just starting their transition. 3. The cishet man might be a brother or other family member who is there to support someone who feels nervous or doesn't have any queer friends or doesn't usually go to big events and wants family and to ensure their own safety in a big crowd 4. You're assuming that the man isn't bi/pan/omni/aro/ace/etc just because they are in a relationship with someone of the opposite gender 5. This person could be questioning and genuinely feels comfortable in these community spaces 6. This person may be in the closet because of personal safety reasons. (This is something I can personally relate to.) Just because someone isn't advertising their identity does not automatically place them in an out group. 7. This could be a gay man who is just not very flamboyant or "visably gay" and friends with a woman!! And so many more reasons but these are just off the top of my head. If you are fully aware of and comfortable in and with sharing your identity, good for you. I mean that so so genuinely. But others may not have that; they may have had to hide/repress who they were, or still have to because of a family situation or a bad working environment or any other reason, they may not be loud and proud because it is just not their style, but they go to pride the way that some Christians only go to church for Christmas and Easter, to feel connected to that community. It is so bold of people to make these generalizations without any sort of nuance. If you want "queer only" spaces, I'm sure they exist! Pride is not that. Modern pride parades are commercialized by corporations as a means of getting money from the community. This doesn't make pride bad, but it makes it a little less genuine than it would be otherwise. I, for one, am perfectly happy with people coming to pride so long as they are respectful. But that isn't what the tweet is about. The tweet was "leave your cishet man at home".
Also this argument in my experience is just lightly masking misogyny, biphobia, transphobia, and/or aphobia. Every time I've seen someone pushing this they always reveal on of these especially the bi/aphobia. smh
Well said. My two thoughts are basically. 1. If Pride is inclusive and welcoming to all, then the only person who should be unwelcome is somebody trying to hate exclude somebody. 2. Excluding people on the basis of identity that is invisible and hard to prove objectively, is an activity that belongs to the fascists and doesn't belong in a loving community.
I feel like you kind of missed the point. We slipped into a conversation about what ifs when we're talking about cishet men, meaning we're not talking about someone whose closeted or repressed or someone who is trans, we're just talking cishet men. Which brings me to my next point. It's a matter of safety for people. People spent thier lives being terrorized by primarily cishet men, so i can understand why people don't want thier biggest oppressors to be in thier presence when they are in a safespace that while says it's 'open for everyone', is still a place which is for primarily for marginalized groups to feel safe.
with all the violence coming towards the lgbt+ community and the increase in violence surely coming with fascism on the rise in so many countries, this debate feels so tired to me when there are more pressing concerns. Feels like people are stuck on convos from 2018 where in the future pride might be lost period
You have a good point. Really people who support LBGBTQIA+ and oppose political conservatism and fascism need to stick together and not just for a celebration.
It's wild how you y'all covered so much ground in basically a half hour. It's even more crazy that you two smashed through my entire weekend as a stream topic. Firstly I'm a straight black man that attends Pride events. Fully admitting that I am a cis het at Pride. However to clarify I make it about uplifting loved ones. This month is entirely about supporting the family for me. I'm a Portlandian that was raised by a single mom. My upbringing was a bit different though in that my mom has been attending Portland Pride since she was 14 or 15 and she is about to turn 61 this year. She gained the title of "f** hag" in the community even as a 16 year old. Growing up as a kid myself my godfathers were gay and every single year we would attend the Portland Pride parade with me up on their shoulders. As a nearly 32 year old man I have now attended 20 Pride parades and look forward to going again this year. For me the queer community is and always has been incredibly normalized family. When I was little my godfathers and queer aunties were basically my whole support circle backing my mom. These days I attend a monthly all P.O.C. cast drag show called Black Magic and provide my cheers and dollars in support. Balck Magic is the second Saturday of each month and this last Saturday was that day this month. This month in particular was special though not just because it's Pride month, but because Widow Von'Du was in town to perform as well. So I picked up my partner then she and I mobbed downtown to go see the show. We get there nice and early, pay the cover and slide on in. We grab tip money at the bar (show up knowing something and always tip the queens as well as be ready to lose your voice cheering) then we went to a solid spot where by size wasn't going to be a problem, but my lady could still see the show as well. As the club filled up and people chose their standing room as per usual most people were respectful enough not to cut off line of sight so that everyone could enjoy the show. You know, respectful adult behavior. Then four people showed up in two different pairs, but essentially at the same time and just planted themselves both in the path of the performers, but also dead in the line of sight of my partner and four other people. When asked to move one of the guys acted like it was our problem somehow. Then this girl from the other duo decided to cape in on her white savior complex shouting at us that she was "a real ally while you're just trying to harass a gay man out just trying to enjoy Pride". Then steps in to further block the path of the queens and the performances. Mind you I'm straight as fuck, but my partner is pan and both of us were also just out trying to enjoy Pride. More than that though we were standing up for the the club and the people their to put on the show. It was wild to me. We handed our tip money to the hostess informing her that we would be back for the teenth when hopefully white savior complex is dialed back a bit and bounced. It's hard to make sure you're not being the problem as a straight person in queer spaces and I have recognized that my whole life. Taking a beat to make sure that you are showing up correct is the most important thing to being an ally in any direction. On full display Saturday night was both sides of the coin. Myself and others trying to maintain a quality space for black queer entertainment and then the people showing up and quite literally stepping in the way all while screeching about how good an ally they are. For all of the straights attending Pride, we are guests. Make sure you are being a quality guest and not just scream that you definitely are.
As a queer person myself, I've heard more experiences from other queer people about queer people being elitist about pride (typically towards straight-passing bisexuals) than I've heard of cishets acting out at pride events. That said, I've been to many pride events and never encountered either one of those. Pride is generally awesome and I recommend anyone check it out if you haven't before.
Gotta say I think Chappell roan would be unhappy that people are telling others they aren't welcome at her shows because they're cis het. My ex boyfriend is one of the kindest, gentlest men I've ever known. Taught me what real love is and what a man really is and it makes me so sad thinking people don't want him around just because he's cishet. Chappell roan isn't just for white women okay
I'm a 76 y/o gay man, who finally decided to 'come out' in the mid-70s, in my 20s. The first Pride gathering I attended was a joyful gathering of people who were countering the very common vilification of 'queerness' (ANY 'queerness') by showing up in numbers and hopefully showing the world that we could never be 'erased' by the hate of the 'phobes'. For ME, I saw the rainbow flag as all-inclusive; an invitation for anyone who saw themselves as, simply, human empaths. But. Over the years, in increments, I just backed out of what was becoming an in-your-face drag show, and then a commercially motivated tee-shirt/pink triangle patch marketplace. I've always seen myself as just another guy, whose affectional attractions were always other guys, since childhood. I've never understood how anyone who's been vilified, and even brutalized, just for loving someone could buy into ANY prejudice. Straight people who want to show up to support us? PLEASE! Over here - stand next to me. We're brothers & sisters in the family of man/woman. Thanks!
I'm nonbinary and bi. I generally present pretty fem so people assume I'm a cis woman. My last relationship was with a bi man, and we were in a straight passing, obviously, but nobody would know that we are both queer without asking us.
I've been to pride 7 years straight in Atlanta. I love queer people and culture, but I also understand that I am a guest and I don't need to come in their house commenting on how the furniture is arranged.
I agree I don't really have a problem with straights at pride along as their allies but I do however have a problem with straights and even sometimes queer people who act like pride is suppose to be basically a target pride sponsored runway instead of what it was at birth a protest of queer people and allies showing that queer people are here to stay with our expressive cultures and passion for love of one another .
I don't get a say as I've never been to a pride parade. But I have a major fear of not being visably queer enough there. So I hate this yearly debate. I don't see how you're even supposed to flag someone as straight? Vibes? We're not registering anywhere, I hope.
I’ve only ever engaged with edgy teens staffing an event when I go as someone who appears straight/cis because we come with our kids. Everyone else is typically happy to have people there celebrating the cultures/variation and freedom that PRIDE has long been about. Not like they can tell by looking at us if either of us is not totally straight or cis.
This whole discourse only exists because people still associate queerness with an aesthetic, a specific "look". I'm genderfluid, but I don't really pass as a man so I am perceived as a cishet woman. There are many queer men out there who don't look the part and are perceived as cishet men. If the "no str8 ppl allowed" discourse were to ever leave twitter and actually enter the real world, banning those we perceive as straight (bc it's not like gay ppl have a gay ID or something) would exclude so many queer people and would reinforce the divisions that pride exists to abolish
this stuff is why i skipped pride this year. im a nonbinary person but im also an afab person who many people might read as a woman dating a man and... i feel worried that i dont count?
I mean, think of it like this: Would you ask a very passing transfemme who has a boyfriend or husband if she is trans? Would you ask an intersex femme about her genitals? That's why this discourse sucks. Because the whole point is to be proud of who you are and who you love without people running your card. I have seen hella white people at Juneteenth celebrations. Nobody asking them if they have a black adopted kid. Nobody asking if they were adopted by a black family. Nobody asking if they are actually even white! (many white passing black people exist)
The was FD feel’s about June Teenth is exactly how I feels about pride now. I couldn’t care less who shows up to pride because it’s not pride anymore. At least not where I live. I did some basic research on the major sponsors of my local pride parade and the biggest one has constant racial discrimination lawsuits against them, the next biggest is a huge contributor to the pollution of indigenous land, and one of the next biggest ones “laid me off” shortly after I came out as trans. Pride is dead.
Thank you for this discussion. I tend to stay in my little queer bubbles, because it feels the most safe, so it’s really nice to get an outside perspective It is important to keep pride open to everyone (except cops and corps), because not only are we trying to normalize queerness, there may be people who are still in the closet, or questioning, and they need a safe space to figure that out
genuinely this really speaks to why I and most bi women in het relationships don’t bother smh such a shame. we already feel like we’re not welcome so if my partner isn’t welcome… bye i guess lmao I’ll watch the festivities on TikTok 😂
Yeah, being a bi woman who's mostly/only dated men is apparently the worst sin ever. 2 of my ex-bfs were also bi, so they weren't even a "straight bf", but we'd still look like a het couple. My bi female friend & I had some lesbians call us "straight tourists" at a gay bar cos we don't _look_ queer- apparently long hair means you're straight. 🙄 This wasn't just about "straights at pride"- it was very specifically targeted at women/afab people with straight bfs, so there's bi/pan erasure, ace erasure, trans erasure, & probably more, but I wouldn't expect 2 cishet guys to notice it. Just like I wouldn't think of race issues as a white person, & it was definitely important to look at that, but I really feel like they would've benefited from including at least one LGBT+ person.
as a queer person, straight people! you’re welcome at pride! come join and support us! just don’t talk over us. (also, keep in mind you can be trans and straight, polyamorous and straight, kinky and straight, ace/aro and straight, and let’s not forget multigender or genderfluid people who can be both gay and straight at once.)
@@yllyarea4550Some emotionally mature cishet men who are comfortable with their sexuality might be go to an event to support a friend or family. If one of FD sig’s sons ends up queer, would you question his sexuality if he went to an event with his son?
My thing is, yes, Pride should be open to anybody who is or supports queer & trans people. However, if your ONLY engagement with our communities is turning up at Pride, you don’t *actually* care about us, you just want to celebrate in our commodification. If you come to Pride, be prepared to speak up for us wherever & whenever you can! Don’t let your allyship only hold in happy/celebratory moments! (Which isn’t technically how Pride started, but here we are.) And for good measure, I think this should be the case with any other marginalized groups.
honestly when FD said that abt some people have white aunties, and its nuanced, i just heavily agree with that. if theyre cool, bring them, but be damn sure youre not bringing libertarian kevin who says slurs in private. if youre bringing someone you gotta give a hard talking to beforehand, second think that!!!!
Gotta ask what’s the point of pride if it’s not about unity, it’s not some elite club or a VIP lounge. The idea of straight allies participating in pride and supporting the LGBT is the entire reason pride even exists in the first place
respectfully, that is not true at all. Pride as we know it was started by black and trans trailblazers along with other queer people. Most of the “allies” of those times would not dare to participate in queer marches (that’s not to say that there weren’t allies at stone wall or other queer protests but the majority were queer people.) Don’t get it twisted, the allies were never the reason why pride was started and they aren’t the reason why it exists toda (they definitely helped but they weren’t the reason.) to say that they are the reason why pride is celebrated today is extremely disingenuous at best and disrespectful/ tone deaf at worst. With that being said, i don’t think all straight people should be excluded but they have to realize that they are not entitled to queer spaces, especially when they cause so much trouble (typically the straight men being homophobic and disrespectful at pride because their “ally” girlfriend invited him.) straight people are “guests” in the celebration, they do not own the celebration. Should straight allies be included in celebrating? i believe so, but i also understand why people would be against it.
I don't think OP actually gets out much if they're singling out queer people's significant others, which is a different thing than the stereotypical cis het woman inviting herself. There's a kind of brainrot from tumblr where kids would form their own cliques around sexual orientation or gender identity, which spilled out onto twitter. Plus it's not like Pride's been radical for over a decade with it being recuperated into something safe and marketable.
It smells the same as "no kink at pride" but substantially less obvious. I think pride is indeed about unity and barring people who are straight/cis or who are perceived as such cuz they're not "queer enough" is gross. Closeted people exist as well as eggs with cracked, patchey, barely held together shells who arguably need pride the most. Supportive allies are important, too. We need to save the ire for the cops and corpos.
Whenever I see these comments I have to ask who they're talking to. Are you talking about a specific instance of someone you know bringing an unsafe or disrespectful person to a queer space? If so, what's the point of saying this on twitter where the people causing that problem for you probably won't even see it? Are you posting this publicly talking to the general masses because you're seeing people at pride that you're assuming are cishet men? If so, how do you know they're cishet men? There are plenty of gay/bi men, trans men, and masc-presenting nonbinary people who you would never know were queer from looking at them. And even if they are cishet men, is it possible that they just...love and care about queer people? Like, what if that cishet man was raised by gay parents, or actually just really loves and wants to support his bi girlfriend? He's not allowed to celebrate that culture even though he's literally directly involved in it via the people close to him? Also, why are we even talking about this, imo, non-problem when there are gigantic corporations funding pride festivals across the country that are benefitting from literal genocide right now? when was the last time you got this upset about cops and corporate sponsors at pride? who cares about straight men at pride at this point? Identiarianism is so tired :/
you'd be shocked at the deep weird and distorted spaces of queer internet. i stay away from there cuz i be appalled. closest i get to genuine queer spaces online is watching a straight white man react wholesomely to gay memes
Big agree with other commenters that it's telling and bad that the post is targetting bi women's partners in particular and not bi men's possible straight female partners. Very likely and possible a person with op's disposition would see a het passing couple and assume they're either both straight or that the woman is bi and the man is straight based on literally nothing. I really really feel that the post is digging at bi women for not being gay enough more than it is legitimately setting reasonable expectations for Pride. The point that we don't know who's gay and who's not really should be the end of the conversation. As discussed, people who are questioning absolutely should be allowed at Pride, and the first time I went to Pride, everyone in the car was an adult who had never been to Pride before because we were afraid we weren't queer enough (we are none of us straight and I was the only cis person). But also, straight passing couples come in many shades of the rainbow. Perhaps one or both people is bi, perbaps one or both is trans. We can't even have a legitimate conversation about straight people behaving badly if queer people can't grasp this simple reality. In my day, the conversation online was about who should go to gay bars, not who should go to Pride. I guess we have to have the conversation about Pride now that so many gay bars are closing. But ime, Pride is so big and loud and sprawlinf that it's not really as though I know what almost anyone is up to anyway. The gay bar conversation made more sense to me, because it was it's easier for a relatively small group of people to upend the dynamics of the space. Of course at this point I think everyone should go to gay bars just so they get the business. The queer community has this seemingly unending problem of needing to argue over who is really queer enough, who should really be allowed. It's never productive.
As a bi guy who's pretty masculine, and suffers from a lot of internalized shame (grew up in a crazy conservative place), I really don't feel welcome in queer spaces, at all, because of the whole queer Olympics, and the conformity aspect of it. It's like I absolutely have to have piercings, pink hair, and a t-shirt that has some queer slogans and pins, talk a certain way, walk a certain way, like certain kind of music etc... before I'm considered queer enough. For a community that brands itself as so open-minded, it sure seems like I have to jump through a lot of hoops and conform to some general aesthetic before I'm even taken seriously, let alone accepted in the community. And I simply refuse to do that, because that's not me, so at the end of the day I don't show up. Every time I've been in some queer spaces, I'm never even acknowledged as possibly being something else than a straight man, and I'm being stared at like a leper, or then very disrespectfully hit on by drugged up, older gay guys (who want to live their fantasy of corrupting a straight guy). I always hear some variation of "Oh but you wouldn't understand, this is a queer thing", and I never corrected anyone because I'm quite shy. And after some time I just got sick of it all, and said 'f this, I really don't need this kind of bull in my life'...
i got a bunch of n word cards from friends I have no intention of cashing in, can i squeek out a soft a to come or am I out, cause I like the food is all
A lot of queer people speak on straight people as a kind of social class, in a similar way we talk about whiteness as a social class. In that view, I (a straight male) completely understand why some queer people don't want us in there space, the same way we don't invite white people to the cookout.
The thing about pride is that it isn’t even a queer space as much as it is a celebration / march for where we are now and (less so nowadays with pink washing) where we are going. If we were talking about a community space the discourse would make so much more sense because that is a queer space but makes no sense for pride. It’s more it’s weird af to celebrate on your own but if you are in space with queer people you care about and they invite you, what’s wrong with celebrating with them??? We love when our straight family and friends support us
just wanna say being queer is much more fluid than being black vs being white. Also to compare the two kinda erases that’s there’s people who are black and queer at the same time. Understood the sentiment tho.
All respect, I think describing queer folk widely as a less "visible" minority lacks a lot of nuance. And I'm not even referring to queer POC, whose intersectionality is another very legitimate discussion. I'm talking about queer folk who just look _queer._ As a trans guy who came out at an older age, I don't pass. Maybe never will. I am a visible minority. I'm not comparing that to people who experience racialization but I am notably, regardless of expression, 100% clockable as queer. Twice I've been randomly attacked with people yelling trans/gay slurs at me. I personally am fine with cishet folk at Pride. But I think drawing lines between queer events and racial minority events as being differentiated by "visibility" is discounting the lived experiences of many queer folk.
I hear you, as a fellow non-passing trans man who'd look visibly queer in a bag of skittles. What I took people to mean about visible minorities however, is that you can't tell from looking whether someone is outside the LGBTQ+ community as a whole. The context being that any gatekeeping logic doesn't necessarily translate for other marginalised spaces i.e. the coveted "cookout invite". At Pride it'd be rude and intrusive to ask deeply personal info of strangers to justify them being there. It's quite different if my white fruity face turns up to an explicitly black space, for example. It could make people anxious or on edge just in itself - which is understandable given, y'know, everything. So I think that's what people were getting at with the visibility comments, rather than saying all LGBTQ+ folks have the option of blending in
@@EzraSprouts Really valid point. Many queer folk are cishet passing for sure, even if many are not. I guess I am pushing back against the concept that I have the privilege of choosing to blend in. It's some thing I've run into online quite a bit and it's frustrating. (Also in real life I've had a couple of people say I wasn't attacked because of being trans. Even with the attackers shouting slurs. SMH.) I'd also note that I live in a very diverse city in Western Canada. The places I hang are not particularly white. Usually at least a demographically appropriate number of people of colour, 20% or more. But notably, there are very few black folk here. So the specific issues related to that aren't really on my radar. Definitely an area of ignorance for me just because that group is less than 1% of the population in my area.
@CorwinFound so sorry you've had to endure invalidation in the wake of attacks. That's a horrible thing for anyone to say to someone who's survived literal hate crimes, the nerve! And yeah, passing privilege is far from universal and very dangerous for those who lack it. I just don't think that's what was being said here, is all.
If passing as white is a thing with its obvious set of privileges then passing as straight is. There are plenty of people who ended up being of the receiving end of homophobic attacks/abuse BEFORE they even had a sense of their own identity and would be unable to come of as straight even if they tried. Granted being "straight passing" doesn't make anyone less gay as the gay is defined by attraction not appearance. Similarly phenotype is a poor indication of actual ancestry.
i don't have anything valuable to add to the convo lmao, i've never even been to pride, sooo. but as a ❗new Chappell Roan fan❗, i remember i was watching a clip from one of her interviews and she was talking about her experience opening for Olivia Rodrigo and how their fanbases were so different age-wise. she described her audience as 'maximum twink popper energy' (paraphrasing), and this random person got so mad in the comment section saying that he was not a twink, he was a 6-foot tall straight man and he didn't appreciate her generalizing her audience that way. like, was arguing with folks months later in the thread 😂😂 i guess i don't get it because it just doesn't make sense to me to engage with her music, listen past her talking about her experience being a queer woman and discovering that, and then not letting a comment like that slide even if it doesn't apply to you at all. so, maybe don't invite him to the Chappell Roan function. maybe y'all just listen to her Tiny Desk in the car and sing along 😭
You did add something valuable, you added this exceptionally fragile too-straight-to-wipe-his-own-arse 6ft man to the pantheon of ridiculous internet characters who live rent-free in my head. I hope that man tries poppers some day.
I'm q u e e r (sometimes UA-cam doesn't post my comment if I use the actual word). I personally wouldn't mind seeing straight cis people at a pride event, that being said, I understand the sentiment. The f e tish ization of not being straight, for all parts of the lgbtq+ can make some lgbtq+ people feel gawked at or used by people who they don't know their actual intention. That being said, I can't in good faith ask them not to come, because there are people who claim to be cis but are still in the closet due to safety or just not feeling like they're being left out. Its a take I can be empathetic with, but not agree with.
I do feel bad that you guys had such a sympathetic, well thought out and productive conversation about this but I think it doesn’t apply to 99% of this (basically entirely online) discourse because it’s about being shitty to bi women. Pride is a public event, straight people have been universally welcomed, but in this discourse bi women’s boyfriends are specifically singled out to other bi women who are in relationships with men. I am bisexual and so much queer discourse online is literally just pointless infighting with no actual application in reality(while not my experience Lesbians being bashed particularly by bi women in the name of “discourse” is also an issue ). While I think not dismissing the concern outright is honorable I do feel the need to call bullshit on people that raise this issue with pride.
This!! The discourse isn't good faith; it's rooted in bimisogyny and is used an excuse to dunk on bi women, who are usually what the talking points centre around (as opposed the figure of the bigoted cishet man. People have a lot more fun ridiculing and victim blaming bi women, or their idea of bi women, instead)
10:37 yeah, we need to stay connected with our elders bc I’d be damned if you try to play my greats and grands like that. Shoutout to the grandson for coming in QUICK to cut the foolishness.
After living in San Diego and then moving to a very rural red place, there are 2 prides. There's Pride (hardcore) that is the one day for people who are queer to be out and proud and starting an mf Riot. Love that for them. There's also small town Pride (pride lite) that is much more about showing social support, creating space for unity within the larger community, and tends to focus on queer youth. My queerass likes these more tbh, but Both are amazing, and I think the "no straights at pride" discussion changes based on which type of Pride we are talking about ✌🏽🌈
From my experience queer spaces are very accepting to everyone. However If you’re gonna flitch and have looks of disgust or not respect people’s body in those spaces then you are not welcome. Bravo Brothas for having this conversation!!!
As a bi in a straight passing relationship, I got enough of this sentiment at pride that I don't go to pride anymore. So, I'm curious to see what this discussion entails. Y'all both always enlighten me to something.
i think the hostility towards cis het people at pride is understandable, even allies have made me feel extremely uncomfortable about my identity but also as long as they understand they're guests and it's not their event it's fine
No, it's not This idea that the straights are the enemies is so delusional And people that call themselves allies are not on your side, they are just looking for personal validation, of course they would make you feel uncomfortable
18:00 BRO YES: Like I feel like, as someone who tried to work for this, it will serve you, your community, and your journey best if you do it for yourself. Black people have not just survived, but thrived a LOT longer than any white person has been anti-racist, so if you reframe it as purging yourself of beliefs that dont serve you, even as a white person, you can be more successful. Its like dating; if you make yourself better for the sake of a partner and not for the sake of being better, its not gonna stick, always be a performance, and other will be able to tell.
y’all did such a good job covering this conversation, you brought up a lot of intersecting important issues. i’m a mixed queer person, in my opinion allies should be welcomed at pride as long as they don’t center themselves. building relationships with solidarity is always a good thing.
As a white, trans, aromantic, sapphic woman, I got some takes on this. From what both of you have said in various videos, I see a lot of potential for alignment of black sexuality with queer sexuality. If we're talking the policing of sexuality, blackness and queerness intersect on that issue. There is the history of literal policing in both cases, and there is ongoing social policing of the sexuality of trans women and black people (doubly so for black trans women). If we're talking how bodies are either fetishised or viewed as inherently predatory, queerness and blackness intersect on that issue. This is an ongoing issue for trans people and black people (doubly so for black trans women - especially with the economic conditions of black trans women often pushing them into sex work). If we're talking about sexuality being seen as either fetishised or inherently predatory, there are intersections there too. Trans women and same sex relationships are perceived this way, and black histories of sexuality are filled with this. If we're talking sexuality being considered more predisposed towards immorality, infidelity, etc., then bisexuality/pansexuality/etc are viewed in that way, just as black sexuality is. Point being, in a white supremacist world black sexuality is rendered queer. Racism and queerphobia create divides, schisms, but really these liberation struggles should be connected. Cishet allosexual, alloromantic racially marginalised people should be more welcome at pride because the point of pride is to overcome marginalised sexuality/gender. This isn't to subsume blackness in queerness because there is more to both than sexuality and gender. However, I should also draw attention to the straight people at pride thing is also rooted in exclusionary attitudes towards, for instance: straight trans people; straight aspec people; bi/pan/Omni/etc people in het-passing relationships; etc.. Maybe this is a bad take, I expect pushback, and I hope I haven't gone tok far.
I think it's wild to tell a bisexual woman not to bring her loved ones to the event to protest for her rights, or celebrate her community's progress, or learn about her community and it's history.
As much as the half isn't black discourse is online, me and my siblings most definitely had conversations (not even half black lol) about out status as black people. Now ofc this discourse is primarily in white spaces but going to school in Atlanta from a Morehouse family I did have a good number of conversations questioning mine and my families blackness from even pro-black areas like Morehouse/Spelman.
I’m so glad that Fd brought up the point of black pride. We have one in dc in may and that’s exactly the vibe. Black pride is gate kept and protected bc it’s a space that was curated to celebrate black queers and to keep us safe
I live in a rural place, so I haven't been to many Prides. I feel like the Prides I went to are probably very different from the ones others may be used to (especially older queer folk), as theese had a lot of families ("my kid is nonbinary, so the whole family is going"), and again, rural, so everyone knew everyone. It was basically just a show from the community that "we value our queer friends and family" and gave people space to be a little extra gay. So an event like that? Hell yeah, come on over. But I imagine the Pride others may expect, really is meant to be a queer space, without needing to dial it back. So only people within the community, and that can include cis straight people, but those people are rare.
As a bi woman I feel like it's super invalidating to be told that my relationship is not valid or acceptable in our spaces unless it's queer presenting. And I mean that you can visibly see that we're not straight. Like what if my boyfriend is a trans man? But he just doesn't wear visible gear like a pin or whatever? Then that leads to us participating in the same behaviour we find so unacceptable in people who keep denying our, the Queer, communities existence. We cannot, CANNOT, turn into the very people we are trying to change.
As an older 30s gay I have such mixed feelings about this like In theory I really do want everyone to feel included and able to go to pride as long as they respect the space but like I also see how people can feel the opposite and have seen it cause issue but over all the fact we are even having this conversation is in fact a sign of how much progress we’ve made which feels me with optimism
I’m in the Atlanta “area” and the main Atlanta pride parade is actually in mid October which correlates with National coming out day instead of the traditional stonewall riots. That is the one I was mostly complaining about in my other comment. There are so many pride events happening by so many different groups in June so that was what you were talking about. This year the main black pride you are probably talking about is at the end of August beginning of September. Never been to that one myself. There are several black pride events in June too ofc
As a white nb gay, the idea of gatekeeping pride nauseates me. But I’m also firmly in the “you don’t have to experience same-sex attraction to identify as queer” camp. The queer experience is the experience of being marginalized, and having compassion for those who are.
@@moon-pw1bi the term for gay can mean non-woman loving a non-woman. so if you're a *non* woman you can be gay. plus policing other people's identities is not how we get rights.
@@moon-pw1bi im genderfluid and fit under the NB umbrella my very existence is gay, that's the failure of trying to define queer experience through the lens of narrow defs. Stop caring how we relate to a system of gender and sexuality that is an inherent byproduct of the ways in which white supremacist imperialism was enforced on people
I always feel weird at pride because even though I am bi, I'm not out really. Like if someone (unless it's family or ultra religious people I know who aren't friends) asks if I'm straight, I won't lie but I'm straight passing (although I've never had a bf) so ppl don't tend to ask me.
This is the question I had on my mind after last year’s Pride, and I’m a little surprised at the negative reactions from LGBTQ+ in the comments at it being asked. The reality is that *yes* it is better to welcome anyone who wants to come, even if they’re just a random cishet person with no real ties to the LGBTQ+. I think the ideal world for us is one where Pride was just a celebrating of different ways of being human, and you can’t have that while gatekeeping it. For those like me who aren’t completely open about being bi and non-binary I think it’s also important for squashing doubts that we’re valid enough to join. What I wrestle with is that when I’m walking in the parade we’re just being gawked at like animals in a zoo. It’s the day the straights have agreed to allow us to be ourselves without judgement, but for the rest of the 364 days of the year we’re expected to make sure we don’t colour too far outside the lines and make them uncomfortable. They’ll still stand by while trans rights are under attack from legislation all over the world. I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater but I’m tired of cishet folks who don’t grasp that if their reaction to not being invited to Pride is to cease being an ally, *they are part of the problem*. Maybe I’m overthinking this and I’m doing it to myself, but I’m tired.
It’s really brutal that this came to my mind, but with the way our “culture war” is going, having non-marginalized people mixed into a marginalized gathering could potentially act as a protective measure against attackers.
When I see people bein happy and havin fun at pride, regardless of who they are, it makes me really happy. Being at Pride and having a nice time with your friends or family or partner/s or whoever you decided to bring with you is important, because just being there is an act of support in my eyes. By being there and celebrating with everyone else, you are passively making the event larger and more visible, which, I feel is the whole point. To show just how many of us there are, who are queer or trans, or just want to support our community's right to exist freely and happily. I also think it would make a lot of people sad or take the wind out of their sails if they are queer/trans but can't invite their cishet partner, or if they're queer and can't invite their really supportive family member who wants to show up for them. Pride is all about intersectionality, I reckon it should be welcoming to anyone who isn't a bigot.
I mean good luck trying to actually enforce it. Oh no I’m not straight I’m bi with a female lean. Me? Oh no I’m ace. Me? No I’m fluid I’m and I’m just feeling like this today. I mean how can you prove otherwise?
just found this channel; it's very enlightening to hear a black perspective on things! reminds me of this other streamer i know about, WoolieVersus. the whole part you guys said about fighting racism, how it should be for yourself, deconstructing the ideas of race, and not just to pat yourself on the back for helping a minority? i think i'll really be reflecting on that bit for a while, lmao. really makes me think! i think i'll be watching this channel a lot in the future :>
I think the problem is the sense when Pride becomes too straight it isn't gay anymore. And Pride is a corporate brand now. But the dark side is by excluding straights you create an oppressive atmosphere out of "overt-ness" in a culture where the closet is still very real. Even if it's just online discourse, people feel pressured into coming out when they aren't ready, and might fear the idea of Pride instead of coming to it as an open and welcoming space to explore your identity without judgment. I think the answer is something like what Foreign says about white people. The question isn't "how can straights help gay people", but rather "who are gay people," "where have they come from," and "what are they standing for?" And, finally, "what is love?" (The Stonewall Experiment, by Ian Young, 49-52)
I can get where some people are coming from with specifically "don't bring your straight bf to pride". Cishet men and their relationship to bisexual women has a longstanding history of "bisexuality for thee, but not for me" and a decent portion of the time it feels less like they want to support their bisexual partner and more they might even want to pressure them into bisexuality because it's "sexy" for them. Do I think allies should be excluded from pride? Absolutely not. If your man is going to pride, we're all under the assumption he's most likely okay with gay men as well and isn't going to be homophobic while championing lesbianism. What I am saying is with that long history that still continues in a lot of conservative circles today, I understand people being on edge about it. Edit: Since a decent amount of people seem to be confused and taking the words "straight men's relationship to bisexual women" very literally, I am not just talking about a straight man dating a bisexual woman, I am talking about the concept of straight men as a group, and how they have interacted with the concept of bisexual women as a group and how they have often fetishized the idea of the bisexual woman, while being openly homophobic towards queer men because queer men aren't "sexy" to them. Again "bisexuality for thee, but not for me", in this case being "women can be bisexual, but men cannot" Glad we could clear this up!
@@randomusername3873 Considering your username and the fact that I don't think anyone would genuinely miss the point this hard, I'm going to assume this is bait and move on. Goodbye!
as a bisexual person the first part of your paragraph kind of irks me. it is an assumption that we as bisexuals are going to pick a partner of the opposite sex that fetishizes our sexuality… no, if i choose to be with a man i make damn sure he will not be fetishizing my attraction to women.
@@rachelallen4240 As someone who is AFAB, partners who fetishize bisexuality do exist, have been with bisexual people, and I have witnessed it myself. Take, for example, my friend who was a unicorn for a 3way, which the guy was significantly more into. His girlfriend barely talked to them prior to the engagement, and when it actually happened, they essentially had to call it off because the girlfriend was made extremely uncomfortable by the whole ordeal and her boyfriend continued to try and hound them for sex afterwards. How about the republican politician in Florida, Christian Ziegler, who was recently involved in a scandal wherein he arranged a 3way with his wife and friend, only to assault the friend after she rejected him coming by himself because his wife was no longer interested after a previous experience and his friend was really just there for her. This also happens in a significant amount of swinger circles, where men will try to get their wives to engage in bisexual activity for their pleasure, not to encourage their bisexual partners to actually explore their sexuality. If you seriously believe this doesn't happen and that men don't try to pressure women into bisexual activity, or that there aren't straight men who fetishize lesbianism but are openly homophobic towards gay men, I don't know what rock you're hiding under. This has been going on for decades, even lesbians will experience straight men trying to pressure them into bisexuality. Again, does that mean allies shouldn't be allowed? No. Obviously not. There are plenty of straight men who can be normal in queer spaces. Do I understand the hesitation as someone who has been subject to fetishization at the hands of straight men? Yes.
0:12 okay that’s just biphobia and toxic masculinity which is wow. Now I see why there’s a discussion to be had. My cishet as was like ‘I mean idc tell me what to do and I’ll so it’ but that whole tweet is a problem. 😅
Possibly the most online discourse to ever happen lmao. Every year with this shit. Go touch grass people, go outside, enjoy the sun, be with the people. Get off twitter smh
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I can't help but laugh at the fact that I'm a straight man watching a video of two straight men talking about whether or not straight people should attend pride events
ki ko ho.
💀
@@RandroidPrimeI’m just gonna turn triangles into *beep*kin’ squares
i mean like hey at least they got chat its not like two c-list comedians get on a podcast together and talk about "females" or smth
Well, you know what it means. Watch your mouth or else, basically🍿😷
i think the difference between black spaces and queer spaces is that one is, what they call in canada, a visible minority. people of all walks of life can be queer to different degrees. seeing the straight bfs of bi girls at pride means allowing straight men to explore and be comfortable in their masculinity as opposed to feeling like THEY need to conform to heteronormativity. whats the point of pride if its not for everyone who supports the community?
sexuality and gender have always been fluid. trying to reinforce an in vs out group only boxes us in further instead of unity
Exactly
Well said.
What about white passing black people or the white partners of black people? It’s also complicated.
@@danic2514im saying that anybody can be queer, regardless or how they look, so its silly to try and gatekeep based on an outwardly heterosexual couple at pride. black spaces and racial politics have ALWAYS been about the visual appearances of people, which sparks its own discussions about nuance and creating separate spaces for people to feel safe in. basically, i dont think its useful to compare these on the same level since they are very different issues
@@danic2514 I get what you mean but for a lot black we know when someone is black. It's just your skin color but things like hair texture helps us say "oh that's a light skinned black person."
There's also the very necessary mom hugs. There are women who attend who give mom hugs bc there are ppl who come to PRIDE who come from homes they were rejected from. Those women are usually straight allies and provide a necessary comfort to abandoned queer youth.
Dang, that's wonderful :) thanks for sharing that.
that would be something my mom and dad do at our city's pride gatherings! they even have shirts that say "free dad hugs" and "free mom hugs"
@@atlassolid5946my mom and dad wore “free mom/dad hugs” at this year’s pride. A gaggle of moms were trying to recruit my dad because he was only one they saw with that shirt, that there was a lack of dad hugs being given out.
Unfortunately, it was so hot we couldn’t stay long (we were just doing a lap), or else he would’ve
They won't bother y'all because y'all aren't seen as representations of the patriarchy. Misandry is the norm within the connected communities. I'm glad y'all are able to spread the love though, keep it up.
Pride is for everyone, except cops and corpos
And no goddamn gays !!
Corpos celebrate the most tho
the two Cs like in thicc 🫡
True, which really sucks because pride out where I live this year was just about exclusively corporate booths saying "we are ok with the gays, here, have some rainbow beads or a pen or something." And cops all over the place.
Plus side was we only had one pathetic, sad little protester with 20 signs he was trying to manage by himself...
pride is a police riot
as a bi guy, i think its a bit strange that people are saying bfs of bi women arent allowed. like, you didnt have a problem with allies before this point
If bisexuals can't participate in LGBTQ pride, then what's the B in LGBTQ for? Lol
The only people saying this stuff are terminally online Twitter rats.
it's literally just biphobia that's dressed up in "progessive" bigotry
Idk people on Twitter like to be violently biphobic for some reason
as a bi girl, yup its sexism you got it dude!!! happy pride!!! :)
Hmmm, so as someone who deals with quite a lot of privilege I can say this was hard for me as well. Please ask yourself how many times you have been somewhere that is uncomfortable for you because PEOPLE HATE YOU. not for anything except who you are. Now consider how many times you have sought to escape this persecutions only to be met with threats inside of your safe space. Hopefully, this is very foreign to you, but not black/brown/queer/disabled communities. CIS HET and particularly YT males are known for their hostility and aggression towards marginalized communities (see capitalisms, imperialism, the system of serfdom in medieval Europe to name a very small few. Please understand why Marginalized communities want peace and safety.
SECOND, they would love allies. no one said anything against allies. However, ally does not mean a part of the community. As a non-binary YT person I've been kicked out of black and brown queer spaces which can hurt my feeling, but I'm sure that the feelings of the oppressed identities which felt the need to create such a group are much more intense.
long story short maybe being an ally means stay home from pride
“You can’t bring libertarians anywhere” LMAOOOOO
that had me weak lmfao😂😂😂
Trueee!!
It’s kinda true though 😂😂😂
I've never seen this discourse at pride in real life
LGBT people are happy to see Straight people supporting them at pride, Straight people are happy to see LGBT people being themselves at pride, this is one of those 'issues' that I feel no one cares about outside of the internet.
Yeah, we have to get offline. I'm a CIS straight man and have been attending our city's Pride festivities since 2006. (I should explain, my life long best friend is gay, and invites me.)
I live in a Conservative city in Canada. Once a group of men came at me as to why I was there and if I was LGBTQ. My friend had wandered over to talk to some of people she knew and was not around me, but immediately several complete strangers around me came to my defence and the crowd started to "boo" the group of men. They quickly changed course and apologized. My friend found me again later and said, "Did you hear some losers were asking people if they were gay and trying to kick people out?"
I just laughed.
In over 20 years that was my only issue.
😊🌈
#Pride #solidarity
irl no one goes to pride
@@xxx_rotfd_xiii_xii3619 clearly you’ve never been to Atlanta lmao
@@maxkordon Atlanta is gay Mecca every day is pride month there
i used to go to pride as a "straight ally" and now im out as nonbinary and bisexual so f*** anyone who says allies aren't welcome at pride
ofc don't bring your bf if he's homophobic... but if he's homophobic and you're bi... don't date him??? break up with him immediately?????????
i mean i feel like HE wouldn't date HER in that instance
@@HoneycombProductions, homophobes can treat that like a challenge. You know they’re bragging to their friends later about “converting” or “saving” the bi partner
Not the kamala 'do not come' clip 😭
i think of it as a personal commandment to mor taledano-shapiro, MD.
Do not come. 😐
Do not come. 😐
I choked!!
Yes kamala owo
@@princesskittyglitter kamala chokes women
This kind of attitude is one of the reasons why it took me so long to come out as nonbinary, genderqueer.
I lived as bisexual all my life and had people question why I was in straight relationships often.
When I started seriously considering my gender shizz 6-7 years ago ( I'm now 34) I was terrified at the idea of my very enthusiastically accepting queer friends not believing me because I'd had such rubbish experiences from the vocal minority of gatekeepers.
Hi, fellow bi here. I just wanted to say I'm sorry that's happened to you. There are so many reasons we might be in "straight" relationships: internalized heteronormativity; a valid preference for one gender; those relationships being easier and better-accepted societally; or just happening to find cool people of the opposite sex to date. That doesn't mean anything about you as a bisexual person. I'm so glad you managed to find your sexuality and gender despite those bigots within our own community. You're right that this gatekeeping attitude is harmful -- we need supportive allies to feel welcome, and we NEED to leave room for questioning people, who may not yet identify as queer, to explore in friendly spaces like Pride without judgment. It can only help our community. Happy pride! ❤
🩷💜💙
I just started not giving a flying fuck what cringy gatekeepers and the usual straight bigot's think about my pansexuality when it comes to preserving my sanity. There will always be idiots and our spaces aren't devoid of them either. I stopped counting how often I had cool conversations with gay guys I was intimate with who found it nice that me and my girlfriend both were who we are and in a poly relationship. And we both had some really wholesome experiences with other queer people and bonding with them on different levels.
At the end of the day you just need to be yourself and find a way to be nice company that works for you and just connect with people if that's your style, or just feel comfortable in your own skin, regardless what some shady bitches say on the internet, just to play who's the bigger victim.
I'm trans and TBH, those kinds of folks didn't help. I'm so fluid about all things that it was hard to even pin down that a lot of my depression was due to gender issues. But I was also scared of being accused of fakery and posing!
Speaking as a bi person, I remember a friend's spouse, a dear friend in their own right, coming out as enby. I was really proud to be one of the people they told first. In my experience, folks whose first reaction to being trusted with something like that, with coming out? They've either forgotten what it was like, or don't understand why we have Pride to begin with.
It's not about who's invited, it's about the focus of Pride staying on queer joy and struggles. Gatekeeping doesn't serve that purpose
its sad that here it seems to have become just general left protest rather than pride event.
like can we have 1 goddamn day without the cishet whining about the environment or some shit. they have 364 other days of the year, let us have this 1.
A lot of bisexuals have straight partners. Imagine banning them from bringing their partner while others are allowed to? Potentially their co-parent who they might want to share a family day out with? Now that whole household is barred.
What does need to change is the attitude of *some* folks to treat it like a zoo, to the extent that an event or space caters more to straight people and more privileged queers. This is definitely a thing that happens. My local Pride has been transphobic and racist, so most of my social circle don't go because it's not for us or invested in our safety
There are so many other ways to encourage respect and self-awareness from cishet guests and facilitate great conversations across experience. Biphobic policies are not the way to that, imo
Like honestly I'd so much rather see either of you at Pride than any Draco Malfoy lookin' Rich Twink. You both make a verb out of allyship, and have honestly done more for our movement than a lot of privileged/complacent LGBTQ+ folks
@@EzraSproutsthank you!
@@EzraSproutsdon't you know? The activists hate bisexual people for "not being discriminated enough"
@@EzraSprouts they are one of the many reasons we give bigots as ammunition to call us lunatics, because we can't just for once work together, instead of playing victimhood olympics online.
Annoying takes all around. My wife and I are agender, they’re bi and I’m ace. You couldn’t tell from looking at us that we’re queer at all. We’ve received this sort of gatekeeping treatment from folks who didn’t know nothing about us, assuming we weren’t queer. Tryna gatekeep queer spaces from anyone other than phobes can be harmful, isn’t worth the risk, and doesn’t have any benefits.
yuuuuuup
Especially when the people gatekeeping are WHITE queers
Yep, I have same experience as genderqueer and bi.
Wait...if your wife is agender...how do you and they know they are a "wife"?
@@andresanguianozuniga6798 cuz it’s better than saying “Wxfe” out loud LMAO we agreed that gendered titles are okay when we’re comfortable with them. Same with “ma’am” and “sir.” Simply more convenient than coming up with some non-gendered, impossible to pronounce title.
as a pansexual with a trans woman sister i’d very much like to bring my cishet bf to pride with me lol
Don't worry, you can 👍
You can, and if you feel wierd, it helps to wear (or have a sign) with some rainbow/pan or "support trans kids" stuff
go have fun + take care!
Lol, you've submitted the proper paperwork, he can come 😂👍🏾🌈
One of the things to remember here is that the "straight boyfriend" or the "straight" in general may not... be straight. Going to Pride may awaken something inside them. They may already know they're queer and going to Pride is where they feel seen or are able to discover themselves. On the flip side, no white person goes to a Kendrick show and becomes black. Queerness is a spectrum, and it's very gatekeepy and weird to not allow people to experience the queerness that they may either be suppressing or not realize they even are yet.
this. before i realized i was pansexual i went down to pride identifying as a straight ally
Yar!
Most of the people at pride in my city are straight allies (supportive aunties who wanna get drunk, girls with a gbf, etc), so this online discourse has always felt very silly. But the focus on men and bisexual women is always interesting, as is the assumption that you can tell who’s a cishet man or cis woman just by looking at them 👀
You can't look at a person and know their gender or sexuality. Unless they're being disruptive, they should be allowed to be there. I've gone to Pride with a boyfriend, and I've gone with an ex-girlfriend. I've been bi/pan the whole time, regardless of who I'm dating
When you say, "sexuality," do you mean, "sex,"(e.g. male/female)...or are you referring to innate attraction?
FWIW, I would tend to disagree if it's the former(outward sexual signifiers), for the most part...but agree, for obvious reasons, if it's the latter.
Brother as a bisexual masculine appearing person, we catch a stray damn near every year
no cause I see the hate yall get and as a transmasc bi dude whos about 2 seconds away from robbing my local hospital for hrt im not looking forward to it
Honestly I'm just glad it ain't the Reagan era anymore, nobody's claiming we're harbingers of the queerpocalypse in The Strain terms.
You are literally the most privileged ones
Are you anti feminist
@@ianwazowski5607 Freddie Mercury, who went on record as bi, had partners of both genders for years at a time, and got erased so hard everyone remembered him as strictly gay, despite being an international rock god. Marlon Brando and Richard Pryor were openly and vocally lovers who also liked girls, nobody talks about it.
Likewise, did you know Cate Blanchett and Anna Paquin are bi? No one seems to. Literally the star of Carol and a voice actress in Euphoria, Rogue in the X-Men movies... But they don't even register as queer to the straights.
Bi can mean privileged, sure, but we're also whitewashed in favor of assumptions based on current behavior, or demonized as inherently untrustworthy/more likely to cheat on partners, even now that the HIV/AIDS panic has subsided and bi dudes aren't seen as threats to the purity of afab people.
Allies are fine
If your not an ally why are you there?
If youre there to cause trouble, expect hands
THANK YOU!! If you arnt an ally why the hell are you there? I will stand 10 toes down on this!!!!!!!
I’m sorry homie as a straight dude, nobody scared of the gay dudes, never seen one at my mma gym that’s in Chelsea nyc which is basically a gay neighborhood
@@OVO-Adolf you've got your head buried if you think gay men and lesbian women don't engage in that. the community loves muscular/strong people. you ever heard of a bear? or butch lesbians? i know butch women who are bigger and tougher than most cishet people i've ever met.
@@OVO-Adolfhow do you know their sexuality based on how they show up to your mma gym???
@@adamtrott78 Literally, he did all that talk not realizing that alot of gay men grow up fighting for thier lives, they will whoop your ass, that fact doesn't change because of this childish mindset that gay = feminine = weak.
How do we verify who is heterosexual at Pride?
Ask them whether they could recite YMCA.
Need to take out their gay card and show it
yeah. it’s never ok to demand people to out themselves.
Cargo shorts probably
The men who are with their girlfriends
This staight are not welcome to lgbta+ spaces doesn't affect only people who are straight and cis. I myself am genderqueer and bisexual, in "straightpassing" realtionship. I have been out and open about it for 17 years, and there has been maybe one time I have been in lgbta+ space without being judged as "cis and straight."
"Oh, you straights wouldn't know how it is," said same person tenth time in same evenging after I had, as many times, said that I'm not straight and not even cis.
It is not nice to be invalidated and questioned and it definetely doesn't make me feel very welcomed at spaces that are namely meant to include people like me. I get all this enough in straight spaces, thank you very much.
I understand that comapanions, friends etc that doesn't know how to behave and might even be homophobic are not wanted. But that is a problem with invidual people, not people in general.
My bestfriend is straight woman and she was often with us in gaybars when we were younger, because she was only straight in the group of five people. So is the conclusion here that we all should go in straight bar because she is not welcomed in queer spaces?
Or in similar vein, should my cousin who came out as gay when he was 18, gone first time to gay bar alone because I'm too "straightpassing" and his other friends were straight. That is not safe either, because predatory people exist even in queerspaces, unfortunately.
So my point is let's not exclude people because of their (assumed) identity and let's keep trying to stop bad behaviour when we see it.
I am straight. I went to pride with my friend and our kids. I went to support her. I went to represent my friend who sadly took his own life 4 years ago because he was unable to accept himself as a gay man. I went to take my kid so that she knows that I will love her regardless of sexuality or gender. I'm thankful that the pride parade in my small corner of the world was an inclusive, safe and accepting place. I'm glad my friend was able to be visible.
"Why would a man be at Chapell Roan?" We're 10 seconds into the video and I'm about to go nuclear lol.
I a man discovered chappell roan setting up the olivia rodrigo show. Most of the people working that day including the road crew were straight men. I'm wondering how these people think concerts even happen?
plus they have no way to know if the "man" they're seeing is cis or not. they could (hypothetically) literally be misgendering a transwoman going to chapell roan who just doesn't pass. or someone who is non-binary and amab. people just don't think.
good thing the tweet is not sincere and is rage bait
Honestly I’m convinced everything on that platform is both sincere and rage bait lol
Gay, BI, and trans ARE not Man in This lógic jgjgjjkj
I’m gay, and I think every straight person should go to Pride at least once. At Pride, you get to see queer couples hold hands and openly show affection in mundane ways, just like any other couple, and that is often a very eye-opening and humbling experience for straight people.
People really need to check their privilege.
1. The "cis" bf might just be trans and straight and passing.
2. This person may be trans and not passing/in the closet/just starting their transition.
3. The cishet man might be a brother or other family member who is there to support someone who feels nervous or doesn't have any queer friends or doesn't usually go to big events and wants family and to ensure their own safety in a big crowd
4. You're assuming that the man isn't bi/pan/omni/aro/ace/etc just because they are in a relationship with someone of the opposite gender
5. This person could be questioning and genuinely feels comfortable in these community spaces
6. This person may be in the closet because of personal safety reasons. (This is something I can personally relate to.) Just because someone isn't advertising their identity does not automatically place them in an out group.
7. This could be a gay man who is just not very flamboyant or "visably gay" and friends with a woman!!
And so many more reasons but these are just off the top of my head. If you are fully aware of and comfortable in and with sharing your identity, good for you. I mean that so so genuinely. But others may not have that; they may have had to hide/repress who they were, or still have to because of a family situation or a bad working environment or any other reason, they may not be loud and proud because it is just not their style, but they go to pride the way that some Christians only go to church for Christmas and Easter, to feel connected to that community. It is so bold of people to make these generalizations without any sort of nuance.
If you want "queer only" spaces, I'm sure they exist! Pride is not that. Modern pride parades are commercialized by corporations as a means of getting money from the community. This doesn't make pride bad, but it makes it a little less genuine than it would be otherwise.
I, for one, am perfectly happy with people coming to pride so long as they are respectful. But that isn't what the tweet is about. The tweet was "leave your cishet man at home".
Funny how any LGBT activism talking point gets imediately thrown away by the same activists
Also this argument in my experience is just lightly masking misogyny, biphobia, transphobia, and/or aphobia. Every time I've seen someone pushing this they always reveal on of these especially the bi/aphobia. smh
😮💨🙌🏾 points were made
Well said. My two thoughts are basically. 1. If Pride is inclusive and welcoming to all, then the only person who should be unwelcome is somebody trying to hate exclude somebody. 2. Excluding people on the basis of identity that is invisible and hard to prove objectively, is an activity that belongs to the fascists and doesn't belong in a loving community.
I feel like you kind of missed the point. We slipped into a conversation about what ifs when we're talking about cishet men, meaning we're not talking about someone whose closeted or repressed or someone who is trans, we're just talking cishet men. Which brings me to my next point. It's a matter of safety for people.
People spent thier lives being terrorized by primarily cishet men, so i can understand why people don't want thier biggest oppressors to be in thier presence when they are in a safespace that while says it's 'open for everyone', is still a place which is for primarily for marginalized groups to feel safe.
I get it, but this kind of discourse is also what makes me, a cis-bisexual man, feel like I'm not welcome at pride.
with all the violence coming towards the lgbt+ community and the increase in violence surely coming with fascism on the rise in so many countries, this debate feels so tired to me when there are more pressing concerns. Feels like people are stuck on convos from 2018 where in the future pride might be lost period
You have a good point. Really people who support LBGBTQIA+ and oppose political conservatism and fascism need to stick together and not just for a celebration.
It's wild how you y'all covered so much ground in basically a half hour. It's even more crazy that you two smashed through my entire weekend as a stream topic.
Firstly I'm a straight black man that attends Pride events. Fully admitting that I am a cis het at Pride. However to clarify I make it about uplifting loved ones. This month is entirely about supporting the family for me. I'm a Portlandian that was raised by a single mom. My upbringing was a bit different though in that my mom has been attending Portland Pride since she was 14 or 15 and she is about to turn 61 this year. She gained the title of "f** hag" in the community even as a 16 year old. Growing up as a kid myself my godfathers were gay and every single year we would attend the Portland Pride parade with me up on their shoulders. As a nearly 32 year old man I have now attended 20 Pride parades and look forward to going again this year. For me the queer community is and always has been incredibly normalized family. When I was little my godfathers and queer aunties were basically my whole support circle backing my mom. These days I attend a monthly all P.O.C. cast drag show called Black Magic and provide my cheers and dollars in support.
Balck Magic is the second Saturday of each month and this last Saturday was that day this month. This month in particular was special though not just because it's Pride month, but because Widow Von'Du was in town to perform as well. So I picked up my partner then she and I mobbed downtown to go see the show. We get there nice and early, pay the cover and slide on in. We grab tip money at the bar (show up knowing something and always tip the queens as well as be ready to lose your voice cheering) then we went to a solid spot where by size wasn't going to be a problem, but my lady could still see the show as well. As the club filled up and people chose their standing room as per usual most people were respectful enough not to cut off line of sight so that everyone could enjoy the show. You know, respectful adult behavior. Then four people showed up in two different pairs, but essentially at the same time and just planted themselves both in the path of the performers, but also dead in the line of sight of my partner and four other people. When asked to move one of the guys acted like it was our problem somehow. Then this girl from the other duo decided to cape in on her white savior complex shouting at us that she was "a real ally while you're just trying to harass a gay man out just trying to enjoy Pride". Then steps in to further block the path of the queens and the performances. Mind you I'm straight as fuck, but my partner is pan and both of us were also just out trying to enjoy Pride. More than that though we were standing up for the the club and the people their to put on the show. It was wild to me. We handed our tip money to the hostess informing her that we would be back for the teenth when hopefully white savior complex is dialed back a bit and bounced.
It's hard to make sure you're not being the problem as a straight person in queer spaces and I have recognized that my whole life. Taking a beat to make sure that you are showing up correct is the most important thing to being an ally in any direction. On full display Saturday night was both sides of the coin. Myself and others trying to maintain a quality space for black queer entertainment and then the people showing up and quite literally stepping in the way all while screeching about how good an ally they are.
For all of the straights attending Pride, we are guests. Make sure you are being a quality guest and not just scream that you definitely are.
This right here
That comparative analogy about 1963-1968 being viewed by the colonial lense as DLC is S-tier
As a queer person myself, I've heard more experiences from other queer people about queer people being elitist about pride (typically towards straight-passing bisexuals) than I've heard of cishets acting out at pride events. That said, I've been to many pride events and never encountered either one of those. Pride is generally awesome and I recommend anyone check it out if you haven't before.
Gotta say I think Chappell roan would be unhappy that people are telling others they aren't welcome at her shows because they're cis het. My ex boyfriend is one of the kindest, gentlest men I've ever known. Taught me what real love is and what a man really is and it makes me so sad thinking people don't want him around just because he's cishet. Chappell roan isn't just for white women okay
I don't see an issue with straight men or women going to pride. As long as they not acting a fool, everyone can enjoy the festivities 🎉
I'm a 76 y/o gay man, who finally decided to 'come out' in the mid-70s, in my 20s. The first Pride gathering I attended was a joyful gathering of people who were countering the very common vilification of 'queerness' (ANY 'queerness') by showing up in numbers and hopefully showing the world that we could never be 'erased' by the hate of the 'phobes'. For ME, I saw the rainbow flag as all-inclusive; an invitation for anyone who saw themselves as, simply, human empaths. But.
Over the years, in increments, I just backed out of what was becoming an in-your-face drag show, and then a commercially motivated tee-shirt/pink triangle patch marketplace. I've always seen myself as just another guy, whose affectional attractions were always other guys, since childhood. I've never understood how anyone who's been vilified, and even brutalized, just for loving someone could buy into ANY prejudice. Straight people who want to show up to support us? PLEASE! Over here - stand next to me. We're brothers & sisters in the family of man/woman.
Thanks!
This was great but then your last statement got me a little worried because you referenced the gender binary. 🤔
@@zetizaharaBro is 76, cut him some slack at least ya Puritan.
I'm nonbinary and bi. I generally present pretty fem so people assume I'm a cis woman. My last relationship was with a bi man, and we were in a straight passing, obviously, but nobody would know that we are both queer without asking us.
COOL!
there’s a ton of stigma around “het-presenting relationships” and it usually boils down to biphobia. keep doing whatever makes yall happy
same here my husband and i look like a storybook trad couple on the outside but we’re both bi asf🏳️🌈
Right. And none of that is information that anyone should feel entitled to.
I've been to pride 7 years straight in Atlanta. I love queer people and culture, but I also understand that I am a guest and I don't need to come in their house commenting on how the furniture is arranged.
I agree I don't really have a problem with straights at pride along as their allies but I do however have a problem with straights and even sometimes queer people who act like pride is suppose to be basically a target pride sponsored runway instead of what it was at birth a protest of queer people and allies showing that queer people are here to stay with our expressive cultures and passion for love of one another .
exactly! Even if you're gay a.f, if you're unsupportive and disruptive, you aren't welcome. It's a protest for everyone supporting the cause.
I don't get a say as I've never been to a pride parade. But I have a major fear of not being visably queer enough there. So I hate this yearly debate. I don't see how you're even supposed to flag someone as straight? Vibes? We're not registering anywhere, I hope.
I’ve only ever engaged with edgy teens staffing an event when I go as someone who appears straight/cis because we come with our kids.
Everyone else is typically happy to have people there celebrating the cultures/variation and freedom that PRIDE has long been about.
Not like they can tell by looking at us if either of us is not totally straight or cis.
oh my godddd, i have been thinking this for the past week xp.
the thing is pride is not for only queer people! it's for allies too!
I promise this is only an online issue no one cares irl you are absolutely welcome
As the most straight-coded bisexual man I totally feel you on the fear of not being visibly queer enough.
This whole discourse only exists because people still associate queerness with an aesthetic, a specific "look". I'm genderfluid, but I don't really pass as a man so I am perceived as a cishet woman. There are many queer men out there who don't look the part and are perceived as cishet men. If the "no str8 ppl allowed" discourse were to ever leave twitter and actually enter the real world, banning those we perceive as straight (bc it's not like gay ppl have a gay ID or something) would exclude so many queer people and would reinforce the divisions that pride exists to abolish
this stuff is why i skipped pride this year. im a nonbinary person but im also an afab person who many people might read as a woman dating a man and... i feel worried that i dont count?
I’m sorry that you felt this way hun, you are part of this community. Being LGBTQ+ doesn’t have a trademarked look or way to be queer. You belong.
I'm sure you can find a welcoming event. Maybe check the groups or reviews out there and look for green flags for you.
You are not afab, you were afab
I mean, think of it like this: Would you ask a very passing transfemme who has a boyfriend or husband if she is trans? Would you ask an intersex femme about her genitals?
That's why this discourse sucks. Because the whole point is to be proud of who you are and who you love without people running your card. I have seen hella white people at Juneteenth celebrations. Nobody asking them if they have a black adopted kid. Nobody asking if they were adopted by a black family. Nobody asking if they are actually even white! (many white passing black people exist)
@@danic2514" I'm also an assigned female at birth person" is what they said. That's not incorrect
The was FD feel’s about June Teenth is exactly how I feels about pride now. I couldn’t care less who shows up to pride because it’s not pride anymore. At least not where I live. I did some basic research on the major sponsors of my local pride parade and the biggest one has constant racial discrimination lawsuits against them, the next biggest is a huge contributor to the pollution of indigenous land, and one of the next biggest ones “laid me off” shortly after I came out as trans. Pride is dead.
Thanks for throwing this back up. Watched part of the livestream but wasn't able to finish it coz I had some errands to run.
I can't say for sure if it's a solely online discourse, but it's definitely narrowed online in ways that make it basically meaningless IRL. Like, which pride are we talking about here? Do we mean protesting in the streets pride or 🏳🌈Pride™🏳🌈, brought to you by ✨Raytheon©✨? Because, like, I don't think cishets even show up to the first one (hell, a lot of cis queers don't show up to the first one) and the second one is the definition of a lost cause already. We can let the cishets have corporate pride it keeps them busy.
I think the problem we're actually angling at is bigotry in queer spaces which, as much as it's not comfortable to acknowledge, isn't a purely cishet issue. Kicking out all the guys wearing button downs over Love is Love tshirts isn't gonna do anything about cis gay transphobia or, like, racist white queers. We need to be better at reacting to behaviour and recognising bigotry, even when it comes from other queer people. A lot of cis gays have no idea what transphobia actually looks like and that goes double for transmisogyny.
Thank you for this discussion. I tend to stay in my little queer bubbles, because it feels the most safe, so it’s really nice to get an outside perspective
It is important to keep pride open to everyone (except cops and corps), because not only are we trying to normalize queerness, there may be people who are still in the closet, or questioning, and they need a safe space to figure that out
genuinely this really speaks to why I and most bi women in het relationships don’t bother smh such a shame. we already feel like we’re not welcome so if my partner isn’t welcome… bye i guess lmao I’ll watch the festivities on TikTok 😂
Yeah, being a bi woman who's mostly/only dated men is apparently the worst sin ever. 2 of my ex-bfs were also bi, so they weren't even a "straight bf", but we'd still look like a het couple. My bi female friend & I had some lesbians call us "straight tourists" at a gay bar cos we don't _look_ queer- apparently long hair means you're straight. 🙄
This wasn't just about "straights at pride"- it was very specifically targeted at women/afab people with straight bfs, so there's bi/pan erasure, ace erasure, trans erasure, & probably more, but I wouldn't expect 2 cishet guys to notice it. Just like I wouldn't think of race issues as a white person, & it was definitely important to look at that, but I really feel like they would've benefited from including at least one LGBT+ person.
it's for everyone. sexuality is a spectrum. we all gay.
as a queer person, straight people! you’re welcome at pride! come join and support us! just don’t talk over us. (also, keep in mind you can be trans and straight, polyamorous and straight, kinky and straight, ace/aro and straight, and let’s not forget multigender or genderfluid people who can be both gay and straight at once.)
Don't get mad when you BFF comes out in 3 years. Why do yall grown ass men wanna go to pride if yall not planning on coming out
Don't get mad when you BFF comes out in 3 years. Why do yall grown ass men wanna go to pride if yall not planning on coming out
Don't get mad when you BFF comes out in 3 years. Why do yall grown ass men wanna go to pride if yall not planning on coming out
Kinky and polyamorous (in themselves) does not make someone part of the queer community. Those can't be in the same sentence as trans or aro/ace
@@yllyarea4550Some emotionally mature cishet men who are comfortable with their sexuality might be go to an event to support a friend or family. If one of FD sig’s sons ends up queer, would you question his sexuality if he went to an event with his son?
Instead of the binary thinking of good and bad we should move towards a helpful v harmful scale
Idk, there is a lot id love to discuss, but its a shame that comment sections are too toxic to bother with.
Comment sections are a terrible place to discuss things because social media platforms boost polarization in comments.
My thing is, yes, Pride should be open to anybody who is or supports queer & trans people. However, if your ONLY engagement with our communities is turning up at Pride, you don’t *actually* care about us, you just want to celebrate in our commodification. If you come to Pride, be prepared to speak up for us wherever & whenever you can! Don’t let your allyship only hold in happy/celebratory moments! (Which isn’t technically how Pride started, but here we are.) And for good measure, I think this should be the case with any other marginalized groups.
honestly when FD said that abt some people have white aunties, and its nuanced, i just heavily agree with that. if theyre cool, bring them, but be damn sure youre not bringing libertarian kevin who says slurs in private. if youre bringing someone you gotta give a hard talking to beforehand, second think that!!!!
Gotta ask what’s the point of pride if it’s not about unity, it’s not some elite club or a VIP lounge. The idea of straight allies participating in pride and supporting the LGBT is the entire reason pride even exists in the first place
respectfully, that is not true at all. Pride as we know it was started by black and trans trailblazers along with other queer people. Most of the “allies” of those times would not dare to participate in queer marches (that’s not to say that there weren’t allies at stone wall or other queer protests but the majority were queer people.) Don’t get it twisted, the allies were never the reason why pride was started and they aren’t the reason why it exists toda (they definitely helped but they weren’t the reason.) to say that they are the reason why pride is celebrated today is extremely disingenuous at best and disrespectful/ tone deaf at worst. With that being said, i don’t think all straight people should be excluded but they have to realize that they are not entitled to queer spaces, especially when they cause so much trouble (typically the straight men being homophobic and disrespectful at pride because their “ally” girlfriend invited him.) straight people are “guests” in the celebration, they do not own the celebration. Should straight allies be included in celebrating? i believe so, but i also understand why people would be against it.
I don't think OP actually gets out much if they're singling out queer people's significant others, which is a different thing than the stereotypical cis het woman inviting herself. There's a kind of brainrot from tumblr where kids would form their own cliques around sexual orientation or gender identity, which spilled out onto twitter. Plus it's not like Pride's been radical for over a decade with it being recuperated into something safe and marketable.
They literally said it it in the videos. To provide a safe space for the lgbt community.
Yah, Pride has always been for allies as well. I don't know how one tweet can make you think this is blanket ideology
It smells the same as "no kink at pride" but substantially less obvious. I think pride is indeed about unity and barring people who are straight/cis or who are perceived as such cuz they're not "queer enough" is gross. Closeted people exist as well as eggs with cracked, patchey, barely held together shells who arguably need pride the most. Supportive allies are important, too. We need to save the ire for the cops and corpos.
Whenever I see these comments I have to ask who they're talking to. Are you talking about a specific instance of someone you know bringing an unsafe or disrespectful person to a queer space? If so, what's the point of saying this on twitter where the people causing that problem for you probably won't even see it? Are you posting this publicly talking to the general masses because you're seeing people at pride that you're assuming are cishet men? If so, how do you know they're cishet men? There are plenty of gay/bi men, trans men, and masc-presenting nonbinary people who you would never know were queer from looking at them. And even if they are cishet men, is it possible that they just...love and care about queer people? Like, what if that cishet man was raised by gay parents, or actually just really loves and wants to support his bi girlfriend? He's not allowed to celebrate that culture even though he's literally directly involved in it via the people close to him? Also, why are we even talking about this, imo, non-problem when there are gigantic corporations funding pride festivals across the country that are benefitting from literal genocide right now? when was the last time you got this upset about cops and corporate sponsors at pride? who cares about straight men at pride at this point? Identiarianism is so tired :/
Thank you so much for this comment. The the other comments were just so not it
Preach!! :>
This isn't a real argument that people have
you'd be shocked at the deep weird and distorted spaces of queer internet. i stay away from there cuz i be appalled. closest i get to genuine queer spaces online is watching a straight white man react wholesomely to gay memes
@@SunshineTheLoverwe love one topic he’s great
Big agree with other commenters that it's telling and bad that the post is targetting bi women's partners in particular and not bi men's possible straight female partners. Very likely and possible a person with op's disposition would see a het passing couple and assume they're either both straight or that the woman is bi and the man is straight based on literally nothing. I really really feel that the post is digging at bi women for not being gay enough more than it is legitimately setting reasonable expectations for Pride.
The point that we don't know who's gay and who's not really should be the end of the conversation. As discussed, people who are questioning absolutely should be allowed at Pride, and the first time I went to Pride, everyone in the car was an adult who had never been to Pride before because we were afraid we weren't queer enough (we are none of us straight and I was the only cis person). But also, straight passing couples come in many shades of the rainbow. Perhaps one or both people is bi, perbaps one or both is trans. We can't even have a legitimate conversation about straight people behaving badly if queer people can't grasp this simple reality.
In my day, the conversation online was about who should go to gay bars, not who should go to Pride. I guess we have to have the conversation about Pride now that so many gay bars are closing. But ime, Pride is so big and loud and sprawlinf that it's not really as though I know what almost anyone is up to anyway. The gay bar conversation made more sense to me, because it was it's easier for a relatively small group of people to upend the dynamics of the space. Of course at this point I think everyone should go to gay bars just so they get the business.
The queer community has this seemingly unending problem of needing to argue over who is really queer enough, who should really be allowed. It's never productive.
As a bi guy who's pretty masculine, and suffers from a lot of internalized shame (grew up in a crazy conservative place), I really don't feel welcome in queer spaces, at all, because of the whole queer Olympics, and the conformity aspect of it.
It's like I absolutely have to have piercings, pink hair, and a t-shirt that has some queer slogans and pins, talk a certain way, walk a certain way, like certain kind of music etc... before I'm considered queer enough. For a community that brands itself as so open-minded, it sure seems like I have to jump through a lot of hoops and conform to some general aesthetic before I'm even taken seriously, let alone accepted in the community. And I simply refuse to do that, because that's not me, so at the end of the day I don't show up.
Every time I've been in some queer spaces, I'm never even acknowledged as possibly being something else than a straight man, and I'm being stared at like a leper, or then very disrespectfully hit on by drugged up, older gay guys (who want to live their fantasy of corrupting a straight guy). I always hear some variation of "Oh but you wouldn't understand, this is a queer thing", and I never corrected anyone because I'm quite shy. And after some time I just got sick of it all, and said 'f this, I really don't need this kind of bull in my life'...
@@jonirischx8925 I'm really sorry you've experienced that.
7:04 FD's villain arc begins 💀💀💀
I think you mean hero arc
this has such similar energy to 'july is gay wrath month' and i support it
i got a bunch of n word cards from friends I have no intention of cashing in, can i squeek out a soft a to come or am I out, cause I like the food is all
"We lost him" *leans back"
@@jadejackson1509🤨
having someone else's laugh as a soundboard button is actually gold
we need the cishet ally boys for the straight trans girlies, this is so sad ;-;
A lot of queer people speak on straight people as a kind of social class, in a similar way we talk about whiteness as a social class. In that view, I (a straight male) completely understand why some queer people don't want us in there space, the same way we don't invite white people to the cookout.
The thing about pride is that it isn’t even a queer space as much as it is a celebration / march for where we are now and (less so nowadays with pink washing) where we are going. If we were talking about a community space the discourse would make so much more sense because that is a queer space but makes no sense for pride. It’s more it’s weird af to celebrate on your own but if you are in space with queer people you care about and they invite you, what’s wrong with celebrating with them??? We love when our straight family and friends support us
@@lindensalter6713 that's a great point.
just wanna say being queer is much more fluid than being black vs being white. Also to compare the two kinda erases that’s there’s people who are black and queer at the same time. Understood the sentiment tho.
All respect, I think describing queer folk widely as a less "visible" minority lacks a lot of nuance. And I'm not even referring to queer POC, whose intersectionality is another very legitimate discussion. I'm talking about queer folk who just look _queer._
As a trans guy who came out at an older age, I don't pass. Maybe never will. I am a visible minority. I'm not comparing that to people who experience racialization but I am notably, regardless of expression, 100% clockable as queer. Twice I've been randomly attacked with people yelling trans/gay slurs at me.
I personally am fine with cishet folk at Pride. But I think drawing lines between queer events and racial minority events as being differentiated by "visibility" is discounting the lived experiences of many queer folk.
I hear you, as a fellow non-passing trans man who'd look visibly queer in a bag of skittles. What I took people to mean about visible minorities however, is that you can't tell from looking whether someone is outside the LGBTQ+ community as a whole. The context being that any gatekeeping logic doesn't necessarily translate for other marginalised spaces i.e. the coveted "cookout invite". At Pride it'd be rude and intrusive to ask deeply personal info of strangers to justify them being there. It's quite different if my white fruity face turns up to an explicitly black space, for example. It could make people anxious or on edge just in itself - which is understandable given, y'know, everything. So I think that's what people were getting at with the visibility comments, rather than saying all LGBTQ+ folks have the option of blending in
@@EzraSprouts Really valid point. Many queer folk are cishet passing for sure, even if many are not. I guess I am pushing back against the concept that I have the privilege of choosing to blend in. It's some thing I've run into online quite a bit and it's frustrating. (Also in real life I've had a couple of people say I wasn't attacked because of being trans. Even with the attackers shouting slurs. SMH.)
I'd also note that I live in a very diverse city in Western Canada. The places I hang are not particularly white. Usually at least a demographically appropriate number of people of colour, 20% or more. But notably, there are very few black folk here. So the specific issues related to that aren't really on my radar. Definitely an area of ignorance for me just because that group is less than 1% of the population in my area.
@CorwinFound so sorry you've had to endure invalidation in the wake of attacks. That's a horrible thing for anyone to say to someone who's survived literal hate crimes, the nerve! And yeah, passing privilege is far from universal and very dangerous for those who lack it. I just don't think that's what was being said here, is all.
If passing as white is a thing with its obvious set of privileges then passing as straight is. There are plenty of people who ended up being of the receiving end of homophobic attacks/abuse BEFORE they even had a sense of their own identity and would be unable to come of as straight even if they tried. Granted being "straight passing" doesn't make anyone less gay as the gay is defined by attraction not appearance. Similarly phenotype is a poor indication of actual ancestry.
Yes its not that everybody is invisable its that some( like me) are.
i don't have anything valuable to add to the convo lmao, i've never even been to pride, sooo.
but as a ❗new Chappell Roan fan❗, i remember i was watching a clip from one of her interviews and she was talking about her experience opening for Olivia Rodrigo and how their fanbases were so different age-wise. she described her audience as 'maximum twink popper energy' (paraphrasing), and this random person got so mad in the comment section saying that he was not a twink, he was a 6-foot tall straight man and he didn't appreciate her generalizing her audience that way. like, was arguing with folks months later in the thread 😂😂
i guess i don't get it because it just doesn't make sense to me to engage with her music, listen past her talking about her experience being a queer woman and discovering that, and then not letting a comment like that slide even if it doesn't apply to you at all.
so, maybe don't invite him to the Chappell Roan function. maybe y'all just listen to her Tiny Desk in the car and sing along 😭
You did add something valuable, you added this exceptionally fragile too-straight-to-wipe-his-own-arse 6ft man to the pantheon of ridiculous internet characters who live rent-free in my head. I hope that man tries poppers some day.
I'm q u e e r (sometimes UA-cam doesn't post my comment if I use the actual word). I personally wouldn't mind seeing straight cis people at a pride event, that being said, I understand the sentiment.
The f e tish ization of not being straight, for all parts of the lgbtq+ can make some lgbtq+ people feel gawked at or used by people who they don't know their actual intention.
That being said, I can't in good faith ask them not to come, because there are people who claim to be cis but are still in the closet due to safety or just not feeling like they're being left out.
Its a take I can be empathetic with, but not agree with.
I do feel bad that you guys had such a sympathetic, well thought out and productive conversation about this but I think it doesn’t apply to 99% of this (basically entirely online) discourse because it’s about being shitty to bi women. Pride is a public event, straight people have been universally welcomed, but in this discourse bi women’s boyfriends are specifically singled out to other bi women who are in relationships with men. I am bisexual and so much queer discourse online is literally just pointless infighting with no actual application in reality(while not my experience Lesbians being bashed particularly by bi women in the name of “discourse” is also an issue ). While I think not dismissing the concern outright is honorable I do feel the need to call bullshit on people that raise this issue with pride.
This!! The discourse isn't good faith; it's rooted in bimisogyny and is used an excuse to dunk on bi women, who are usually what the talking points centre around (as opposed the figure of the bigoted cishet man. People have a lot more fun ridiculing and victim blaming bi women, or their idea of bi women, instead)
10:37 yeah, we need to stay connected with our elders bc I’d be damned if you try to play my greats and grands like that. Shoutout to the grandson for coming in QUICK to cut the foolishness.
After living in San Diego and then moving to a very rural red place, there are 2 prides. There's Pride (hardcore) that is the one day for people who are queer to be out and proud and starting an mf Riot. Love that for them. There's also small town Pride (pride lite) that is much more about showing social support, creating space for unity within the larger community, and tends to focus on queer youth. My queerass likes these more tbh, but Both are amazing, and I think the "no straights at pride" discussion changes based on which type of Pride we are talking about ✌🏽🌈
From my experience queer spaces are very accepting to everyone. However If you’re gonna flitch and have looks of disgust or not respect people’s body in those spaces then you are not welcome. Bravo Brothas for having this conversation!!!
Solidarity is lost to some of our fellow humans.
As a bi in a straight passing relationship, I got enough of this sentiment at pride that I don't go to pride anymore.
So, I'm curious to see what this discussion entails. Y'all both always enlighten me to something.
Same I have only been single at queer spaces but dont go anymore cause the way they talked about other bi people infront of me.
i think the hostility towards cis het people at pride is understandable, even allies have made me feel extremely uncomfortable about my identity but also as long as they understand they're guests and it's not their event it's fine
No, it's not
This idea that the straights are the enemies is so delusional
And people that call themselves allies are not on your side, they are just looking for personal validation, of course they would make you feel uncomfortable
18:00 BRO YES: Like I feel like, as someone who tried to work for this, it will serve you, your community, and your journey best if you do it for yourself. Black people have not just survived, but thrived a LOT longer than any white person has been anti-racist, so if you reframe it as purging yourself of beliefs that dont serve you, even as a white person, you can be more successful.
Its like dating; if you make yourself better for the sake of a partner and not for the sake of being better, its not gonna stick, always be a performance, and other will be able to tell.
y’all did such a good job covering this conversation, you brought up a lot of intersecting important issues. i’m a mixed queer person, in my opinion allies should be welcomed at pride as long as they don’t center themselves. building relationships with solidarity is always a good thing.
As a white, trans, aromantic, sapphic woman, I got some takes on this. From what both of you have said in various videos, I see a lot of potential for alignment of black sexuality with queer sexuality.
If we're talking the policing of sexuality, blackness and queerness intersect on that issue. There is the history of literal policing in both cases, and there is ongoing social policing of the sexuality of trans women and black people (doubly so for black trans women). If we're talking how bodies are either fetishised or viewed as inherently predatory, queerness and blackness intersect on that issue. This is an ongoing issue for trans people and black people (doubly so for black trans women - especially with the economic conditions of black trans women often pushing them into sex work). If we're talking about sexuality being seen as either fetishised or inherently predatory, there are intersections there too. Trans women and same sex relationships are perceived this way, and black histories of sexuality are filled with this. If we're talking sexuality being considered more predisposed towards immorality, infidelity, etc., then bisexuality/pansexuality/etc are viewed in that way, just as black sexuality is.
Point being, in a white supremacist world black sexuality is rendered queer. Racism and queerphobia create divides, schisms, but really these liberation struggles should be connected. Cishet allosexual, alloromantic racially marginalised people should be more welcome at pride because the point of pride is to overcome marginalised sexuality/gender. This isn't to subsume blackness in queerness because there is more to both than sexuality and gender.
However, I should also draw attention to the straight people at pride thing is also rooted in exclusionary attitudes towards, for instance: straight trans people; straight aspec people; bi/pan/Omni/etc people in het-passing relationships; etc..
Maybe this is a bad take, I expect pushback, and I hope I haven't gone tok far.
I think it's wild to tell a bisexual woman not to bring her loved ones to the event to protest for her rights, or celebrate her community's progress, or learn about her community and it's history.
As much as the half isn't black discourse is online, me and my siblings most definitely had conversations (not even half black lol) about out status as black people. Now ofc this discourse is primarily in white spaces but going to school in Atlanta from a Morehouse family I did have a good number of conversations questioning mine and my families blackness from even pro-black areas like Morehouse/Spelman.
I’m so glad that Fd brought up the point of black pride. We have one in dc in may and that’s exactly the vibe. Black pride is gate kept and protected bc it’s a space that was curated to celebrate black queers and to keep us safe
I live in a rural place, so I haven't been to many Prides. I feel like the Prides I went to are probably very different from the ones others may be used to (especially older queer folk), as theese had a lot of families ("my kid is nonbinary, so the whole family is going"), and again, rural, so everyone knew everyone. It was basically just a show from the community that "we value our queer friends and family" and gave people space to be a little extra gay.
So an event like that? Hell yeah, come on over. But I imagine the Pride others may expect, really is meant to be a queer space, without needing to dial it back. So only people within the community, and that can include cis straight people, but those people are rare.
As a bi woman I feel like it's super invalidating to be told that my relationship is not valid or acceptable in our spaces unless it's queer presenting. And I mean that you can visibly see that we're not straight. Like what if my boyfriend is a trans man? But he just doesn't wear visible gear like a pin or whatever? Then that leads to us participating in the same behaviour we find so unacceptable in people who keep denying our, the Queer, communities existence. We cannot, CANNOT, turn into the very people we are trying to change.
As an older 30s gay I have such mixed feelings about this like In theory I really do want everyone to feel included and able to go to pride as long as they respect the space but like I also see how people can feel the opposite and have seen it cause issue but over all the fact we are even having this conversation is in fact a sign of how much progress we’ve made which feels me with optimism
I welcome all allies at Pride. Numbers give us strength.
I’m in the Atlanta “area” and the main Atlanta pride parade is actually in mid October which correlates with National coming out day instead of the traditional stonewall riots. That is the one I was mostly complaining about in my other comment. There are so many pride events happening by so many different groups in June so that was what you were talking about. This year the main black pride you are probably talking about is at the end of August beginning of September. Never been to that one myself. There are several black pride events in June too ofc
As a white nb gay, the idea of gatekeeping pride nauseates me. But I’m also firmly in the “you don’t have to experience same-sex attraction to identify as queer” camp. The queer experience is the experience of being marginalized, and having compassion for those who are.
genuine question. how can you be non binary and gay simultaneously??
@@moon-pw1bi the term for gay can mean non-woman loving a non-woman. so if you're a *non* woman you can be gay. plus policing other people's identities is not how we get rights.
@@lintheelf gay can also mean women loving women. are they both correct? cause at this point it sounds like being gay can mean anything
@@moon-pw1bi im genderfluid and fit under the NB umbrella my very existence is gay, that's the failure of trying to define queer experience through the lens of narrow defs. Stop caring how we relate to a system of gender and sexuality that is an inherent byproduct of the ways in which white supremacist imperialism was enforced on people
Thanks for enlightenment: I haven't yet been able to simplify so correctly as I am a guest with gays.
I always feel weird at pride because even though I am bi, I'm not out really. Like if someone (unless it's family or ultra religious people I know who aren't friends) asks if I'm straight, I won't lie but I'm straight passing (although I've never had a bf) so ppl don't tend to ask me.
This is the question I had on my mind after last year’s Pride, and I’m a little surprised at the negative reactions from LGBTQ+ in the comments at it being asked.
The reality is that *yes* it is better to welcome anyone who wants to come, even if they’re just a random cishet person with no real ties to the LGBTQ+. I think the ideal world for us is one where Pride was just a celebrating of different ways of being human, and you can’t have that while gatekeeping it.
For those like me who aren’t completely open about being bi and non-binary I think it’s also important for squashing doubts that we’re valid enough to join.
What I wrestle with is that when I’m walking in the parade we’re just being gawked at like animals in a zoo. It’s the day the straights have agreed to allow us to be ourselves without judgement, but for the rest of the 364 days of the year we’re expected to make sure we don’t colour too far outside the lines and make them uncomfortable. They’ll still stand by while trans rights are under attack from legislation all over the world.
I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater but I’m tired of cishet folks who don’t grasp that if their reaction to not being invited to Pride is to cease being an ally, *they are part of the problem*.
Maybe I’m overthinking this and I’m doing it to myself, but I’m tired.
It’s really brutal that this came to my mind, but with the way our “culture war” is going, having non-marginalized people mixed into a marginalized gathering could potentially act as a protective measure against attackers.
When I see people bein happy and havin fun at pride, regardless of who they are, it makes me really happy. Being at Pride and having a nice time with your friends or family or partner/s or whoever you decided to bring with you is important, because just being there is an act of support in my eyes. By being there and celebrating with everyone else, you are passively making the event larger and more visible, which, I feel is the whole point. To show just how many of us there are, who are queer or trans, or just want to support our community's right to exist freely and happily. I also think it would make a lot of people sad or take the wind out of their sails if they are queer/trans but can't invite their cishet partner, or if they're queer and can't invite their really supportive family member who wants to show up for them. Pride is all about intersectionality, I reckon it should be welcoming to anyone who isn't a bigot.
What’s the Johnny/Nebula thing that evoked such laughter?
I mean good luck trying to actually enforce it. Oh no I’m not straight I’m bi with a female lean. Me? Oh no I’m ace. Me? No I’m fluid I’m and I’m just feeling like this today. I mean how can you prove otherwise?
Great discussion, thanks!
In a conservative area it's great to have everyone's support.
just found this channel; it's very enlightening to hear a black perspective on things! reminds me of this other streamer i know about, WoolieVersus. the whole part you guys said about fighting racism, how it should be for yourself, deconstructing the ideas of race, and not just to pat yourself on the back for helping a minority? i think i'll really be reflecting on that bit for a while, lmao. really makes me think! i think i'll be watching this channel a lot in the future :>
Come if invited but know your place.
June may only be one month, but the discourse is everlasting 😭
I think the problem is the sense when Pride becomes too straight it isn't gay anymore. And Pride is a corporate brand now. But the dark side is by excluding straights you create an oppressive atmosphere out of "overt-ness" in a culture where the closet is still very real. Even if it's just online discourse, people feel pressured into coming out when they aren't ready, and might fear the idea of Pride instead of coming to it as an open and welcoming space to explore your identity without judgment.
I think the answer is something like what Foreign says about white people. The question isn't "how can straights help gay people", but rather "who are gay people," "where have they come from," and "what are they standing for?" And, finally, "what is love?" (The Stonewall Experiment, by Ian Young, 49-52)
I missed this because UA-cam has decided not to display this channel in my subscription list!
Thank you foreign!
I can get where some people are coming from with specifically "don't bring your straight bf to pride". Cishet men and their relationship to bisexual women has a longstanding history of "bisexuality for thee, but not for me" and a decent portion of the time it feels less like they want to support their bisexual partner and more they might even want to pressure them into bisexuality because it's "sexy" for them.
Do I think allies should be excluded from pride? Absolutely not. If your man is going to pride, we're all under the assumption he's most likely okay with gay men as well and isn't going to be homophobic while championing lesbianism. What I am saying is with that long history that still continues in a lot of conservative circles today, I understand people being on edge about it.
Edit: Since a decent amount of people seem to be confused and taking the words "straight men's relationship to bisexual women" very literally, I am not just talking about a straight man dating a bisexual woman, I am talking about the concept of straight men as a group, and how they have interacted with the concept of bisexual women as a group and how they have often fetishized the idea of the bisexual woman, while being openly homophobic towards queer men because queer men aren't "sexy" to them. Again "bisexuality for thee, but not for me", in this case being "women can be bisexual, but men cannot" Glad we could clear this up!
This is true, men also tend to abuse bisexual women the most because they are perceiving deviancy in them.
As if the implication that there something wrong with a opposite sex relationship between a bisexual and a straight person is not disturbing
@@randomusername3873 Considering your username and the fact that I don't think anyone would genuinely miss the point this hard, I'm going to assume this is bait and move on. Goodbye!
as a bisexual person the first part of your paragraph kind of irks me. it is an assumption that we as bisexuals are going to pick a partner of the opposite sex that fetishizes our sexuality… no, if i choose to be with a man i make damn sure he will not be fetishizing my attraction to women.
@@rachelallen4240 As someone who is AFAB, partners who fetishize bisexuality do exist, have been with bisexual people, and I have witnessed it myself.
Take, for example, my friend who was a unicorn for a 3way, which the guy was significantly more into. His girlfriend barely talked to them prior to the engagement, and when it actually happened, they essentially had to call it off because the girlfriend was made extremely uncomfortable by the whole ordeal and her boyfriend continued to try and hound them for sex afterwards. How about the republican politician in Florida, Christian Ziegler, who was recently involved in a scandal wherein he arranged a 3way with his wife and friend, only to assault the friend after she rejected him coming by himself because his wife was no longer interested after a previous experience and his friend was really just there for her. This also happens in a significant amount of swinger circles, where men will try to get their wives to engage in bisexual activity for their pleasure, not to encourage their bisexual partners to actually explore their sexuality.
If you seriously believe this doesn't happen and that men don't try to pressure women into bisexual activity, or that there aren't straight men who fetishize lesbianism but are openly homophobic towards gay men, I don't know what rock you're hiding under. This has been going on for decades, even lesbians will experience straight men trying to pressure them into bisexuality.
Again, does that mean allies shouldn't be allowed? No. Obviously not. There are plenty of straight men who can be normal in queer spaces. Do I understand the hesitation as someone who has been subject to fetishization at the hands of straight men? Yes.
". . . We are straight, we are men, but we are black."
LGBTQ+ community: "Close enough."
I know this is a serious topic and, as a queer person, I seriously appreciate the discussion, but I also really wanna say that's nice Les Paul.
0:12 okay that’s just biphobia and toxic masculinity which is wow. Now I see why there’s a discussion to be had.
My cishet as was like ‘I mean idc tell me what to do and I’ll so it’ but that whole tweet is a problem. 😅
Possibly the most online discourse to ever happen lmao. Every year with this shit. Go touch grass people, go outside, enjoy the sun, be with the people. Get off twitter smh
Be with the people? That's not always possible if you don't have friends.