Very nice Equipment and clearly quality operation. Having resurfaced literally over 400 LS cylinder heads I have never found a head needing less the .005. Very consistently in the 7-10 range from unknown cores (bulk purchase from major core suppliers) This machine leaves a very nice finish PCD I assume. I don't have that level of machine but with proper Maintenace Setup and operation I get consistent 40 to 45 RA with a korloy rotary carbide inserts. But there is nothing sexier than a sub 20 finish. Nice job !
Yeah, there are quite a few bad ones out there! Yes, it is PCD and a finish in the teens for RA is not required for most applications. But why not do the best you can if you are able to!
@@paragonengines1924 : my cat would disagree with you. But I wouldn't like t try my method on a large cast iron head. Thanks for the feedback, and I won't mention your comment to my cat.
I used a mci d series bus side window with 400 grit contact cemented wet paper to it. I sprayed it with wd40 and go back and fourth and spray it some more. I have done a couple sets of ej20 heads and a pair of Toyota 2gr heads with that method. Works okay. They heads were not screwed up in the first place so I was working with good parts.
In a pinch, it's got to be better than nothing! There are plenty of times you have to work with what you got, I admire the ingenuity to get the job done!
One other thing (and we tested it in the early 1980s with a four-cylinder Suzuki motorcycle head) is that aluminum heads are actually flexible; a "twist" is generally not an issue, as long as it's not too severe. But I always flycut my heads, as the equipment was available. It would be fun to take a scrap LS head and flex it.
Not the least bit uncommon (both aluminum and cast iron cylinder heads from many companies) - nor is it uncommon for them not to have had any gasket issues. The quality of factory spec gaskets is so much higher than most people know, and just how much out-of-flat they'll seal. In addition to that there is something people don't want to hear - engines come right from the factory with block sealer in the water jackets, and have for decades and decades, this takes care of any 'weeping' that can occur if the machining wasn't in spec. I've seen engines with heads and/or decks (was in the business just over ten years) so warped or just plain out of flat that a precision straight-edge wasn't needed to see how bad they were, and this was on stock, normally used engines. The boosted, sprayed and race N/A engines were worse yet. Under boost or spray the SBC was the most common, vithout adding additional cooling added the siamesed exhaust ports heat soaked the head to the point of warping, valve seats 'migrating', and occasionally exhaust valves galling in the guides - reasons why the LS went to the Ford style staggered ports. The Fel-Pro Printo-seal head gasket was developed to seal less that flat decks & heads. Well done using the HAAS VMC for machining, coming from tool & die, and returning after the business, it's not only more universal than purpose built engine machine tools, but more accurate and allow CNC porting should you go in that direction.
@@paragonengines1924 Thanks! Yeah, I'd done it on 'stolen' machine time (nights & weekends in the tool & die shops) for so many years that I finally made it official. I'd made a very good reputation for the business when marital discord sent the busines into the death spiral. My favorite (for out of tolerance) from days of old were 400 SBCs, mains out of line, sometimes cam bores too, decks WAY out of square - they broached decks back then and the machines were already past worn out - and cylinders so out of round you could see shadows from the dips. Every one had a twist to the block, sometimes near .02" front to back. Every single one I've done - I still lend a hand for friends - gets baked, no blast because it's murder cleaning out the beads, jackets cleaned, a half-fill of block filler - no lost cooling, line hone, squared & zero decked, blended oil passages/returns, fitted (scraped if needed) cam bearings, no more than .030" over, a little loose piston to wall, an M55-HV but with the stock pressure spring, and of course honed w/deck plate. I always felt the 4.125" bore was just too big for that casting. The half - fill helped tremendously with the bores and rigidity without hurtin cooling at all. I run a VF-5 for a living now - but I sure miss the business.
The internet said I could buy $14 heads put $12 in them and hit the surface with some 60 grit sand paper and make 1897hp. Hmmm I’m thinking the internet lied. Lol
You forgot that you can take a junkyard LS, without touching it inside feed it 40psi of boost, make 2000hp and have it last forever... (well the AFM might knock the power down while it's active) Or did the internet lie again?
@@paragonengines1924 Well, these guys claim they take 'em right from the Junk Yard and drop 'em in without even opening 'em up, so I'm taking their word for it that the AFM lifters, cam, oil passages are still in place, along with the slightly cheesy tin roller retainers on the rockers, so yeah, you're SUPPOSED TO leave the AFM in place - they do! (or not) 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I use a block deck height gauge to check the low spots on the surface of the head before I start. Then I know pretty close how much I need to take off without multiple passes.
Lots of Faith in that rotational axis you have....very nice work. They likely get it to work with very forgiving head Gasket materials that are soft and all so crap.
Well, I'm well under its working limits. This particular rotary holds up to 435 LBS with a support. It also has an upgraded rotary brake for a 1000 lbs of break torque. I think they just tighten up the head bolts more and call it good!
@@paragonengines1924 The same ra is not the same ra 🤣. Apparently surface finishes changed the game for comp cams and total seal has a lot of cool info on it now also.
You do realise when the head is torqued the deviation will change, also the head will change with heat. It's better to set the block and head back to zero but it's not as critical as some people think. I've done many head gasket jobs where we only machine the head and clean the block. Also plenty of razor blade rebuilds don't blow head gaskets, this is because like I said the alloy will change under bolt tension and heat. It's not possible to know how the tension affects the decks without maybe a computer simulation but it does exist. But yes it's best practice to machine both decks which eliminates any tolerance stacking ect. I bet the end that was further out was the hotter side of the engine and the straighter side was on the water inlet side.
Yes, I do realize that when the head gets torqued down, everything changes. Hence why we torque plate hone every block that we do. But in any application where you are trying to seal pressure between 2 parts, making sure the force is evenly distributed around the opening to be sealed is important. It may have still worked as it was, but we apply the same principals to stock type rebuilds as we do on our 3000HP viper packages. I completely understand that this type of precision isn't required or in everyone's budget, but we provide our services for people who want it done right.
that head had a big crack in it, at 3:38 look at the lower left bolt hole there is a crack that runs towards combustion chamber. 3:40- looks like both center ones are cracked.
There were no cracks in the head. You are picking up a score mark left from debris or a chip. The head was zyglo fluxed and verified there were no cracks before machining!
@@paragonengines1924 the mark was there throughout every pass that it can be seen by the camera, even before the surface cleans up between the 2 chambers on the right. The line extends down into the head bolt bore, so could not have been left by a chip. Furthermore the line is not uniform to the radius of the cutter.
I looked back and can see what you are saying. The line does appear to go down into the head bolt hole, but it is just a line that matches up. The line on the surface does match the 6" radius of the cutter. Sometimes if there is a little silicone or other debris in the water jacket or other holes, it can pick that up on every cut and create what you are seeing. It's also even more noticeable on the video because of how shiny the rest of the deck surface is. We will zyglo flux for cracks anything that is suspect, and this was one of those because of the other damage in the motor. That check did not show any cracks.
I did a SB 383 stroker then bought Aluminum heads from a seller on Ebay. I assumed the heads was fine, but I was really wrong, both heads had been as bad as the head in the video being surfaced. I found out after putting the engine in the truck then doing all the wire hooked up then add coolant and seeing coolant run from under the heads down the block. The heads after the sufficing turned fine but the cost in coolant + new gaskets and time taking the engine back out of the truck was also a nasty job
You must not assume the block is square either. I may be the reason the head was off square. By surfacing the head without making the block square will augment the possibility of blowing a head gasket.
So now what would you have to do about the pushrods…..would the 7.400” still cut the mustard???…..i only ask this cause i have a set of ls3 heads that need to be freshened up, i gotta steal on a 6.0 l96 from ebay that came out of a retired schwans truck , complete with intake and lpg (propane) injectors……i rebuilt the short block with ls3 flat tops and put cheap procomp heads on it…..its still on an engine stand in my garage and ive had good results with the 64cc ls3 procomp heads on my lsa supercharged 370” lq9….you just gotta make sure you dissassmble the chinese heads and give them a once over, and toss out the cheap valve springs and seals and replace with factory GM pieces…….but i think i wanna put the factory ls3/l92 heads on the spare motor because the compression is so high espescailly with a super charger ive literally gotta put a can of race gas concentrate with every fill up to get around 100octane to avoid spark knock…..other than that i have no complaints…..just considering putting the factory gm heads on it and selling the pro comps while they are still new!!!……very informative video by the way….ive gotten away with a plasctic bristle brush on many 5.3’s that i builts for projects that were to be sold with great results…..but on my personal keeper cars im a bit more ocd!!!
Yes, the 7.400" length would work just fine. You don't really need to worry about changing length until you get closer to .030" removed. But I always tell people to check the preload because there can be length differences between the other parts in the valvetrain that may warrant a change in length.
What about heliarc filling the low spots, and milling the minimum? Taking 10thou off a combustion pocket surely builds the CR high… makes for some pinging, I’d think…
Welding a cylinder head is a pretty intensive process because a lot of the times the aluminum is not great quality. Yes, it will increase the CR, but in this case, there was enough dish in the pistons to give us a little wiggle room on desired CR.
Very nice video. But I didn't deck my heads when rebuilding a new engine and they sealed up just fine but maybe I should have and could have increased my CR a bit.
@@paragonengines1924 Well thank you for the subscription. Not many of us engine machine shops left. I think somehow we need to band together. Do you have contact information? I would like to reach out to you. Take care, Ed.
Funny. I have a friend that has a SBE LS tube chassis car uses all TTY bolts over and over and he always told me to deck the heads and push rod clearance.
May be a dumb question here but, how do you know if both heads are the same "height" after surfacing them? Or can you tell? Neat video and awesome process. Thank you
Are you taking small steps just for the video? It would be more efficient to depth check the low spots around that cylinder so that you can just come in with a cut 1thou under the measurement .
Yes, this was to give a visual representation for how far out the surfaces are. I'll usually start by taking off .005" and then check from there. Generally, most heads clean up on the first pass, but its quicker to measure what's left than to check the head for all the low spots.
You didnt see this distorted area before milling? Guess i am missing your point the amount taken off? Is that unusually exvessive? Point taken, most rebuilds need head milling. Maybe I am missing the point.
You can't see it with the naked eye, but you can check with a straight edge and feeler gauges like most shops do. The main reason for the video was to give a broken-down visual view of the distortion of the surface. the amount removed is not abnormal, but the amount of distortion on the surface was excessive.
The block generally comes out under .0002". it's hard to distinguish between machine measuring tolerance and block flatness at that point. Yes, it would, but it is as flat as I can measure.
Curious what that cutter is, is that a custom head with inserts? Also interested to see what kind of speeds and feeds used to get that incredible surface finish
It is a cutter that I made and used some off the shelf holders and a giant shell mill arbor. This head in particular I used a PCD insert running about 4100 SFM and 10 IPM feed. I don't go much over .005" DOC and do a final pass at .0007" DOC for the best finish.
Actually a truck motor with 300K+ miles. The spun the main bearing so bad and put so much heat into the block it cracked the main all the way up to the cam bore! I don't know how you could have driven it that long with the kind of noise it would have been making!
@@paragonengines1924 That's a lot less than I assumed. Totally worth it. So, what all would you do with a junkyard LS3 with 70k miles? Would you disassemble the lower end at all?
@@paragonengines1924Funny, I was just rewatching this video, great timing. Yeah, just a nice street engine to go into a 56 Chevy truck build, target is 525hp.
So just how important is it to face something like this with a facemill that large in diameter oppose to using a more normal facemill? I always see basically flycutters on these Heads.
It came down to ascetics mostly. The automotive industry expects the surface to be one, uniform finish across the surface. The machine is accurate enough to use a smaller fly cutter and do multiple passes and still have gaskets seal, but it doesn't look like it will because of the finish.
I wouldn't say it is common. But the advantage for us is it reduces set up time because we can use the same machine for multiple operations on the heads or blocks without moving to another machine. The surfacing specific machines are very accurate, but they only perform 1 machining operation.
So here's my question, Where do you guys find these out of spec heads?? Every pair of "Well seasoned" LS heads that I've pulled in the last 8 months (20 plus engines) Have all been flat and level. I get it if you're decking them to bump up your compression. But for OEM rebuilds that we see, the only head in the 20+ that wasn't flat. Had smacked hard by a aftermarket (Dome) piston and cracked it. Which made it junk anyway. Maybe you guys are seeing these heads warp in racing engines that are being tunned to perform at extremely high levels. But the everyday LS engines we see aren't having these issues. At least the ones we are working on aren't.
These heads are what customers bring into the shop. This pair for example had one head that cleaned up in about .002". But its partner in the video, wasn't even close to that. They both came off the same 300K+ mile LQ4, so they both lived under the same circumstances, and it didn't have any head gasket issues! When a customer comes in for this service, they want peace of mind, and they don't want to have issues when they get the motor together and running, especially with 15+ PSI of boost!
Right is right, and I'm usually obsessed with exact, But in this situation, I have to say, your both right. Don't tell anyone I said that, I'm afraid some will move the canisters on my countertop, they're all exactly 5.76 in apart.
@@paragonengines1924 Thats fare. We don't deal with any thing other than OEM Daily Drivers and a few N/A Performance gas Pickup Trucks set up for towing trailers. So we "Rarely" see a bad LS head. Even the 20+year old stuff thats 200-K -300-K are seldom out of spec unless they where severally over heated. And even those engines are extremely rare today. Maybe its our clientele??? Or we are just lucky, But until recently. We haven't had a blown up LS engine in the shop. And the 2 we have had where in vehicles that we purchased with the intent of flipping that we where told they had bad engines. However the condition of the vehicle and the price we purchased them for was to good of a deal not to install another engine in them. And we still cleared a minimum of $2-K profit. Even paying ourselves "Family shop rate".Including the purchase a known good engine, And doing a engine swap. We just put together a 2010 Yukon 5.3 (126-K) that was sold with a bad engine. Both the AFM and VVT shit the bed. After deleting both and a cheap BTR cam swap. We don't have $1200.00 (Total) in this SUV. And will be my oldest daughter's first car.
Maybe it's my clientele brining me junk! lol But, I'm glad you are able to make some extra coin fixing those! A little hard work and you can have yourself some nice stuff!
The stroke speed is very fast on that Profilometer. You can slow that down and your end up with about an 18-20 finish. What grade insert are you using out of curiosity. Can? holder looks to be a cartridge off of a big facing mill?
I looked through the manual and I don't see any speed adjustment. There is a length adjustment, which is set on the longest setting. It is a PCD insert and the holder is made by baker equipment for surfacing machines.
do you have to deck both head equally. meaning if this head took say .006 to deck and the first only took say .003 would you need take .003 off the first better head to keep the combustion chamber the same?
I got a question for you. So I have an lq4 with oringed block with a receiver groove in the aluminum head. How do you go about decking those? Do you have to recut the groove after everytime or is there usually a tolerance spec where you have some wiggle room if the head wasn't too warped.
If you're only taking off a thou or two, you might be able to get away with it. It depends on how much squish you want the o-ring to push into the gasket. Best practice is to recut the groove to the original depth.
Yes that is possible, in fact even though you don't hear much about it, imo TTY bolts get weak more often than we might think. Any head should retain it's torque specs thru out it's life, and I believe some of these lower quality bolts are junk and don't keep those specs... especially chinese junk. It always pays to use high quality bolts for long term use.
By the name, torque to yield, you are bringing the fastener to its yield point, which is not the best for the life of the fastener. Better to run a fastener that doesn't have to reach yield to do the same amount of work.
It is more important if you are trying to get the most HP out of any engine you can. They may still hold fine, but we are more concerned with making sure every cylinder is contributing equally. Any mismatch in cylinder performance can rob power. Plus, we want to give the best work we can to our customers, so we shoot for perfection in all the machining we do!
I would be interested to know if you were able , between heads and block, to hit a number that allows use of a buyable head gasket to get compression back to spec or did you have to modify the valve seats.
Usually, the process starts with a desired compression ratio. Then we will get the pistons to get us close and mill the heads to make up the difference. We try to keep the quench at a certain number depending on application, and usually that is adjusted with a head gasket. But there are all kinds of different thing we can modify to get the compression we want.
I don't think that engine had been running with the head that way for very long. Don't think it would have run for long periods if it hadn't been taken Apart either.
From the story I was told, the motor had 300K+ miles on it and had spun a bearing. It didn't have any signs of gasket failure, but I agree, it wasn't long for this world!
The industry name is a profilometer. This particular one is made by Mahr and it's called the pocket surf. A required tool if you are doing any kind of precision machining.
What is the absolute maximum that you can take off of an LS cylinder head? The finish that that particular cutting tools is absolutely amazing what speed are you running that and what type of color is it? Also what is the diameter of the piece the cutter is in? Also is something that smooth better or worse for a ceiling surface? I've been told you want a little bit of a texture like some of the cylinder heads come with the cnc lines. Just trying to learn a little? I just bought a Bridgeport. I don't think I can get that kind of speed out of it tho.
I have taken up to .040 off, but it starts to have issues with the intake manifold fitting right. We usually stop at .025". It is running about 4100 SFM at a 10 IPM feed, around 12" diameter with 1500 RPM. Not sure what you mean by color? The smoother the better for modern MLS gaskets! You can do some pretty good work in the bridge port if you have a tight machine and take your time to learn what speeds and feeds work for you. Main thing to do it make sure the setup is as rigid as possible and the machine is still tight.
No such thing as too smooth for MLS gaskets, however, too rough is. I rebuilt a Ford 4.6 modular engine out of a 97 f150 and from the factory the surface was just as rough as cast iron heads, and I know for a fact the engine had never even been taken apart since it was new. Back when they started MLS gaskets manufacturers screwed up and didn't realize how smooth the surface needs to be for MLS gaskets to seal. Copper spray does help for those surfaces, but only one thin layer, anything more is basically useless, especially around the combustion chambers. I ended up resurfacing the heads and the block, as both were just as rough with factory cuts. The heads were not warped at all, but could easily tell how the gaskets lost its hold between the cylinders due to the surface cut. Smoother is always better.
The CNC lines do not tell the story of RA. Most aftermarket Gaskets function with as coarse as a 85 RA (Fel-Pro stock replacement MLS). Some other MFG require lower numbers. The key is to target UNDER the require RA. for the gasket / application. As paragon has clearly done
@@paragonengines1924 it can be amiss depends on conditions and how much money someone is willing to spend on a engine. Copper spray does work, but only for tiny pitting areas where decking could lead to a bottom end rebuild. If all it needs is cleaned up, a head gasket job on a old block, one thin layer of copper spray can save hundreds. The trick is knowing if it will work or not for a particular situation. It's useless around combustion areas, but can work good around water and oil ports. Imo, anytime a deck job is required, the bottom end should also be done if its got a lot of miles. With some pitting and no warpage copper spray can get you out of a high cost job. If it has warpage beyond specs then forget it, even a full can of copper spray won't do it... it's not meant to hold compression and won't.... that's been my two cent experience.
I guess technically you would be correct because the bolts will pull the head flatter. But the bolts really shouldn't have to straighten the head out...
@@paragonengines1924 Awesome, thank you! I am just using CBN and on aluminum, running 900 RPM with the 1/2" dia insert at 4" a minute. I think I can go faster. Many thanks! Mark
The PCD will give you a much nicer finish, but they aren't cheap! The 4000 SFM seems to be a good starting point for both iron and aluminum with the single cutter.
I run the same speed on the iron. Make sure the insert you are using has a sharp edge. Don't use a cutter with a chamfer on the cutting edge, it will only give you trouble!
@@paragonengines1924 get them down to my 317 heads I'm replacing, I had them milled .040 back about 10 years ago, back before I knew anything about ls engines
Likely, if any real power adder was installed that little spot should’ve just ran ok, it probably could’ve pushed the head gasket out at the wrong time and would’ve led to larger problems. At least as far as the guys that say use a straight edge and 60-grit sand paper anyway but, like they say shoulda, coulda, woulda won’t get you down the track every time reliability........ LEAVE THE MACHINE WORK TO THE MACHINISTS and the the wrench turning to the part swappers!!!
I got a bunch of ls heads id like dipped clean and resurfaced. But all my local machine shops are months out. Are you accepting new clients if I can ship my heads to you? Able to ship them back upon completion?
Yes, we are still taking work in. We are able to ship back and forth if needed. But to be honest, we ourselves are a month or 2 out for that kind of work. Give us a call and we can work through the details if you would like!
I appreciate that! just recently started uploading more so I'm hoping to grow a community of people wanting to see professional machine work done and share information about the proper ways to build high performance engines!
What was the grand total that you took off? About 0.10 or lower? The reason why I asked is because I have a Chevy Aluminum 113 heads 58cc combustion chamber size, and with a flat top piston on a 350ci compression ratio is 10.1 My question is if I cut the heads 10 thousands off how much would it raise my compression ratio? Thanks.
If I remember correctly, I believe it was about .008". Every head is different, but a good rule of thumb is for every .005" removed from the head it will take away about 1CC. Then use that number and calculate to get your desired compression ratio!
I agree, most heads should be machined after being run. Aluminum does have some downsides, but with modern manufacturing and the advantages aluminum has over cast iron, it has become the standard for a reason.
I would not trust most this setup is at best scary there is no mass in the underline of that work so this demonstration could be meaningless it is interesting made me think i have owned machine shop and we were in business for fifteen years and never had a comeback on surfacing the trick is to have as much control as possible and to double check every thing like the video just have QUESTIONS
This is the same type of set up as most surfacing machines run. I actually built it more robust than my dedicated DCM surfacer. Now I completely agree if I was trying to hog a bunch of material or drill large holes, this would not be the set up I would go with. Most of the cuts done with this set up are less than .005". At one point ran a support under the head along the valve cover rail, but it didn't make a difference in surface finish or dimensional accuracy, so I did away with it. let me know what other questions you have, and I'll do my best to answer them!
@@paragonengines1924 it's awesome. I'm not used to CNC in engine shops. Also, I like how it changes the angle and then comes back exactly parallel with the tool again. That's not easy or cheap for the machine to be able to do it.
lmfao yea because we all have those machines in our shed and tons of money are you serious? :LS engines cost a grand. i throw LS heads around like theyre free, knowbody should be doing any machine work to a LS. stuff a cam in it turbo or nos and send it.
No, I don't expect you to have this machine, that's why I'm here to help! But our customers don't what to have to swap motors every weekend with junk yard parts. A little machining and the right parts can save you pulling the motor after every time you put your foot in it!
Very nice Equipment and clearly quality operation. Having resurfaced literally over 400 LS cylinder heads I have never found a head needing less the .005. Very consistently in the 7-10 range from unknown cores (bulk purchase from major core suppliers) This machine leaves a very nice finish PCD I assume. I don't have that level of machine but with proper Maintenace Setup and operation I get consistent 40 to 45 RA with a korloy rotary carbide inserts. But there is nothing sexier than a sub 20 finish. Nice job !
Whatever Ra the gasket calls for imo.
Yeah, there are quite a few bad ones out there! Yes, it is PCD and a finish in the teens for RA is not required for most applications. But why not do the best you can if you are able to!
Outstanding to see inside the process of a high quality professional automotive engine machine shop! Subscribed
Thank you! just trying to give people some insight into what goes into quality machine work!
The last time I flattened a head was for a 2 cylinder outboard, 2 stroke. A glass plate and sandpaper did it.
Nice to have good equipment.
There are plenty of ways to skin the cat! Very smart way to get the job done!
@@paragonengines1924 : my cat would disagree with you.
But I wouldn't like t try my method on a large cast iron head.
Thanks for the feedback, and I won't mention your comment to my cat.
I used a mci d series bus side window with 400 grit contact cemented wet paper to it. I sprayed it with wd40 and go back and fourth and spray it some more. I have done a couple sets of ej20 heads and a pair of Toyota 2gr heads with that method. Works okay. They heads were not screwed up in the first place so I was working with good parts.
In a pinch, it's got to be better than nothing! There are plenty of times you have to work with what you got, I admire the ingenuity to get the job done!
That's one hell of a fly cutter
Custom made to meet our needs!
One other thing (and we tested it in the early 1980s with a four-cylinder Suzuki motorcycle head) is that aluminum heads are actually flexible; a "twist" is generally not an issue, as long as it's not too severe. But I always flycut my heads, as the equipment was available. It would be fun to take a scrap LS head and flex it.
Yep, these do the same and do it a lot under boost. Thats why most aftermarket heads have thicker decks!
Not the least bit uncommon (both aluminum and cast iron cylinder heads from many companies) - nor is it uncommon for them not to have had any gasket issues.
The quality of factory spec gaskets is so much higher than most people know, and just how much out-of-flat they'll seal. In addition to that there is something people don't want to hear - engines come right from the factory with block sealer in the water jackets, and have for decades and decades, this takes care of any 'weeping' that can occur if the machining wasn't in spec.
I've seen engines with heads and/or decks (was in the business just over ten years) so warped or just plain out of flat that a precision straight-edge wasn't needed to see how bad they were, and this was on stock, normally used engines.
The boosted, sprayed and race N/A engines were worse yet. Under boost or spray the SBC was the most common, vithout adding additional cooling added the siamesed exhaust ports heat soaked the head to the point of warping, valve seats 'migrating', and occasionally exhaust valves galling in the guides - reasons why the LS went to the Ford style staggered ports.
The Fel-Pro Printo-seal head gasket was developed to seal less that flat decks & heads.
Well done using the HAAS VMC for machining, coming from tool & die, and returning after the business, it's not only more universal than purpose built engine machine tools, but more accurate and allow CNC porting should you go in that direction.
Couldn't have said it better myself! It's really crazy how much weird stuff you see after doing it for 15+ years!
@@paragonengines1924
Thanks!
Yeah, I'd done it on 'stolen' machine time (nights & weekends in the tool & die shops) for so many years that I finally made it official. I'd made a very good reputation for the business when marital discord sent the busines into the death spiral.
My favorite (for out of tolerance) from days of old were 400 SBCs, mains out of line, sometimes cam bores too, decks WAY out of square - they broached decks back then and the machines were already past worn out - and cylinders so out of round you could see shadows from the dips.
Every one had a twist to the block, sometimes near .02" front to back.
Every single one I've done - I still lend a hand for friends - gets baked, no blast because it's murder cleaning out the beads, jackets cleaned, a half-fill of block filler - no lost cooling, line hone, squared & zero decked, blended oil passages/returns, fitted (scraped if needed) cam bearings, no more than .030" over, a little loose piston to wall, an M55-HV but with the stock pressure spring, and of course honed w/deck plate.
I always felt the 4.125" bore was just too big for that casting.
The half - fill helped tremendously with the bores and rigidity without hurtin cooling at all.
I run a VF-5 for a living now - but I sure miss the business.
The internet said I could buy $14 heads put $12 in them and hit the surface with some 60 grit sand paper and make 1897hp. Hmmm I’m thinking the internet lied. Lol
Well you're right, but this work is for when you want to make 1898hp 👍
You forgot that you can take a junkyard LS, without touching it inside feed it 40psi of boost, make 2000hp and have it last forever...
(well the AFM might knock the power down while it's active)
Or did the internet lie again?
Wait... I'm supposed to leave the AFM installed?? Dang, that's probably why I'm not getting 40 MPG with 1800 HP!
@@paragonengines1924
Well, these guys claim they take 'em right from the Junk Yard and drop 'em in without even opening 'em up, so I'm taking their word for it that the AFM lifters, cam, oil passages are still in place, along with the slightly cheesy tin roller retainers on the rockers, so yeah, you're SUPPOSED TO leave the AFM in place - they do! (or not) 🤣🤣🤣🤣
LS heads are like roaches in the parts yard, if one is trash just grab another one and sell the "marginal" one of Facebook 🥃
Nice work.
Thanks for sharing your process.
Take care, EM.
Thanks 👍
I use a block deck height gauge to check the low spots on the surface of the head before I start.
Then I know pretty close how much I need to take off without multiple passes.
Yes, that works too! This is not the normal way that I machine the heads, it was more to show visually what the distortion of the head looks like.
Lots of Faith in that rotational axis you have....very nice work.
They likely get it to work with very forgiving head Gasket materials that are soft and all so crap.
Well, I'm well under its working limits. This particular rotary holds up to 435 LBS with a support. It also has an upgraded rotary brake for a 1000 lbs of break torque. I think they just tighten up the head bolts more and call it good!
Don't ls us MLS gasket?
@@damnitdang yes
Like seeing the surface finish meter.
I'll make sure to use it in some more videos so you can get a feel for how important surface finishes are!
I would agree! It's very satisfying to see it when it comes into the light!
@@paragonengines1924 The same ra is not the same ra 🤣. Apparently surface finishes changed the game for comp cams and total seal has a lot of cool info on it now also.
You do realise when the head is torqued the deviation will change, also the head will change with heat.
It's better to set the block and head back to zero but it's not as critical as some people think.
I've done many head gasket jobs where we only machine the head and clean the block. Also plenty of razor blade rebuilds don't blow head gaskets, this is because like I said the alloy will change under bolt tension and heat. It's not possible to know how the tension affects the decks without maybe a computer simulation but it does exist.
But yes it's best practice to machine both decks which eliminates any tolerance stacking ect.
I bet the end that was further out was the hotter side of the engine and the straighter side was on the water inlet side.
Yes, I do realize that when the head gets torqued down, everything changes. Hence why we torque plate hone every block that we do. But in any application where you are trying to seal pressure between 2 parts, making sure the force is evenly distributed around the opening to be sealed is important. It may have still worked as it was, but we apply the same principals to stock type rebuilds as we do on our 3000HP viper packages. I completely understand that this type of precision isn't required or in everyone's budget, but we provide our services for people who want it done right.
that head had a big crack in it, at 3:38 look at the lower left bolt hole there is a crack that runs towards combustion chamber. 3:40- looks like both center ones are cracked.
There were no cracks in the head. You are picking up a score mark left from debris or a chip. The head was zyglo fluxed and verified there were no cracks before machining!
3:29 head is clearly cracked between chambers and into head bolt bore and water jacket.
Nice fly cutter btw. I miss running a pair of VF6's
There were no cracks in the head. You might be seeing where a chip left a drag mark.
@@paragonengines1924 the mark was there throughout every pass that it can be seen by the camera, even before the surface cleans up between the 2 chambers on the right. The line extends down into the head bolt bore, so could not have been left by a chip. Furthermore the line is not uniform to the radius of the cutter.
I looked back and can see what you are saying. The line does appear to go down into the head bolt hole, but it is just a line that matches up. The line on the surface does match the 6" radius of the cutter. Sometimes if there is a little silicone or other debris in the water jacket or other holes, it can pick that up on every cut and create what you are seeing. It's also even more noticeable on the video because of how shiny the rest of the deck surface is. We will zyglo flux for cracks anything that is suspect, and this was one of those because of the other damage in the motor. That check did not show any cracks.
Man that machinery is bonkers love it. Love the same Gcode as my little 3d printers (but my 3d printers can't do that to my RB26 heads sadly!!!!!)
Yep! once you know G-code, you can run all kinds of machines!
I did a SB 383 stroker then bought Aluminum heads from a seller on Ebay.
I assumed the heads was fine, but I was really wrong, both heads had been as bad as the head in the video being surfaced.
I found out after putting the engine in the truck then doing all the wire hooked up then add coolant and seeing coolant run from under the heads down the block.
The heads after the sufficing turned fine but the cost in coolant + new gaskets and time taking the engine back out of the truck was also a nasty job
Yeah, got to watch out for that stuff on ebay!
You must not assume the block is square either. I may be the reason the head was off square. By surfacing the head without making the block square will augment the possibility of blowing a head gasket.
Very true! The block was also milled for this build being he didn't want any issues running 15+ psi of boost!
Very nice process!
Thank you!
So now what would you have to do about the pushrods…..would the 7.400” still cut the mustard???…..i only ask this cause i have a set of ls3 heads that need to be freshened up, i gotta steal on a 6.0 l96 from ebay that came out of a retired schwans truck , complete with intake and lpg (propane) injectors……i rebuilt the short block with ls3 flat tops and put cheap procomp heads on it…..its still on an engine stand in my garage and ive had good results with the 64cc ls3 procomp heads on my lsa supercharged 370” lq9….you just gotta make sure you dissassmble the chinese heads and give them a once over, and toss out the cheap valve springs and seals and replace with factory GM pieces…….but i think i wanna put the factory ls3/l92 heads on the spare motor because the compression is so high espescailly with a super charger ive literally gotta put a can of race gas concentrate with every fill up to get around 100octane to avoid spark knock…..other than that i have no complaints…..just considering putting the factory gm heads on it and selling the pro comps while they are still new!!!……very informative video by the way….ive gotten away with a plasctic bristle brush on many 5.3’s that i builts for projects that were to be sold with great results…..but on my personal keeper cars im a bit more ocd!!!
Yes, the 7.400" length would work just fine. You don't really need to worry about changing length until you get closer to .030" removed. But I always tell people to check the preload because there can be length differences between the other parts in the valvetrain that may warrant a change in length.
What about heliarc filling the low spots, and milling the minimum? Taking 10thou off a combustion pocket surely builds the CR high… makes for some pinging, I’d think…
Welding a cylinder head is a pretty intensive process because a lot of the times the aluminum is not great quality. Yes, it will increase the CR, but in this case, there was enough dish in the pistons to give us a little wiggle room on desired CR.
This vid was awesome!
Awesome! Glad you liked it!
Very nice video. But I didn't deck my heads when rebuilding a new engine and they sealed up just fine but maybe I should have and could have increased my CR a bit.
There are plenty of cases where they will seal up fine. But for some the peace of mind is more important!
Thank you I learned a lot from this video.
Glad to hear it!
I just subscribed to your channel.
Have a great day.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks Ed! I subscribed to your channel as well! I appreciate the support!
@@paragonengines1924 Well thank you for the subscription.
Not many of us engine machine shops left.
I think somehow we need to band together.
Do you have contact information?
I would like to reach out to you.
Take care, Ed.
Funny. I have a friend that has a SBE LS tube chassis car uses all TTY bolts over and over and he always told me to deck the heads and push rod clearance.
May be a dumb question here but, how do you know if both heads are the same "height" after surfacing them? Or can you tell?
Neat video and awesome process.
Thank you
There are certain machined points that you can check (head bolt flats, rocker bosses, etc.) and compare between the 2 heads.
See, it was kind of a no brainer question.
Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving
Happy Thanksgiving to you too!
Are you taking small steps just for the video? It would be more efficient to depth check the low spots around that cylinder so that you can just come in with a cut 1thou under the measurement .
Yes, this was to give a visual representation for how far out the surfaces are. I'll usually start by taking off .005" and then check from there. Generally, most heads clean up on the first pass, but its quicker to measure what's left than to check the head for all the low spots.
Frankenstein for the win
They do make some nice stuff! May not be in everyone's budget though!
You didnt see this distorted area before milling?
Guess i am missing your point the amount taken off? Is that unusually exvessive?
Point taken, most rebuilds need head milling.
Maybe I am missing the point.
You can't see it with the naked eye, but you can check with a straight edge and feeler gauges like most shops do. The main reason for the video was to give a broken-down visual view of the distortion of the surface. the amount removed is not abnormal, but the amount of distortion on the surface was excessive.
What do you get for flatness? With such a large cutter any spindle tram error would cup the center, no?
The block generally comes out under .0002". it's hard to distinguish between machine measuring tolerance and block flatness at that point. Yes, it would, but it is as flat as I can measure.
what kind of insert are you using :) Looks great
1/2" CBN for blocks and PCD for aluminum.
Curious what that cutter is, is that a custom head with inserts? Also interested to see what kind of speeds and feeds used to get that incredible surface finish
It is a cutter that I made and used some off the shelf holders and a giant shell mill arbor. This head in particular I used a PCD insert running about 4100 SFM and 10 IPM feed. I don't go much over .005" DOC and do a final pass at .0007" DOC for the best finish.
@@paragonengines1924 4100- interesting.. i thought that thing was flying!
The reason why it was still able to run is because the block deck is probably just as warped but in the opposite direction So it was able to seal
You're probably not wrong! I didn't check the block that went with these heads because it cracked the main saddle, so no reason to look at it!
@@paragonengines1924 ah. Rip that block
@@paragonengines1924 hold up, an LS cracked in the main saddle? Race engine im assuming correct?
Actually a truck motor with 300K+ miles. The spun the main bearing so bad and put so much heat into the block it cracked the main all the way up to the cam bore! I don't know how you could have driven it that long with the kind of noise it would have been making!
@@paragonengines1924 oh wow yikes. No rod bearing spun?
Very nice! How much should this process cost?
We charge $170 to do a pair of heads up to .030".
@@paragonengines1924 That's a lot less than I assumed. Totally worth it. So, what all would you do with a junkyard LS3 with 70k miles? Would you disassemble the lower end at all?
@@billdane12345 Depends on what you are going to do with it?
@@paragonengines1924Funny, I was just rewatching this video, great timing. Yeah, just a nice street engine to go into a 56 Chevy truck build, target is 525hp.
So just how important is it to face something like this with a facemill that large in diameter oppose to using a more normal facemill? I always see basically flycutters on these Heads.
It came down to ascetics mostly. The automotive industry expects the surface to be one, uniform finish across the surface. The machine is accurate enough to use a smaller fly cutter and do multiple passes and still have gaskets seal, but it doesn't look like it will because of the finish.
Is it typical for someone to use a Hass for even head resurfacing? I'm sure it's incredibly accurate compared to most shops work
I wouldn't say it is common. But the advantage for us is it reduces set up time because we can use the same machine for multiple operations on the heads or blocks without moving to another machine. The surfacing specific machines are very accurate, but they only perform 1 machining operation.
Is the cutter actually slowing down troughout the cut or is it some wierd camera artifact?
The frame rate of the camera matches the rotation of the cutter for a moment. It stays at 1500 RPM the entire cut!
aka aliasing
I guess it's okay to tip the head over like that between passes? I'd have thought it would be important to leave it in position.
The way I have tested it the rotary will return within .0001". It does have play, but the program is set up to compensate for that.
@@paragonengines1924 oh wow, that’s amazing.
Does the block also need to be checked so the head sits flat on it?
Yes, the block should also be checked for flatness!
So here's my question, Where do you guys find these out of spec heads?? Every pair of "Well seasoned" LS heads that I've pulled in the last 8 months (20 plus engines) Have all been flat and level. I get it if you're decking them to bump up your compression. But for OEM rebuilds that we see, the only head in the 20+ that wasn't flat. Had smacked hard by a aftermarket (Dome) piston and cracked it. Which made it junk anyway. Maybe you guys are seeing these heads warp in racing engines that are being tunned to perform at extremely high levels. But the everyday LS engines we see aren't having these issues. At least the ones we are working on aren't.
These heads are what customers bring into the shop. This pair for example had one head that cleaned up in about .002". But its partner in the video, wasn't even close to that. They both came off the same 300K+ mile LQ4, so they both lived under the same circumstances, and it didn't have any head gasket issues! When a customer comes in for this service, they want peace of mind, and they don't want to have issues when they get the motor together and running, especially with 15+ PSI of boost!
Right is right, and I'm usually obsessed with exact, But in this situation, I have to say, your both right. Don't tell anyone I said that, I'm afraid some will move the canisters on my countertop, they're all exactly 5.76 in apart.
I won't tell anyone, only for the sake of your canisters.
@@paragonengines1924 Thats fare. We don't deal with any thing other than OEM Daily Drivers and a few N/A Performance gas Pickup Trucks set up for towing trailers. So we "Rarely" see a bad LS head. Even the 20+year old stuff thats 200-K -300-K are seldom out of spec unless they where severally over heated. And even those engines are extremely rare today. Maybe its our clientele??? Or we are just lucky, But until recently. We haven't had a blown up LS engine in the shop. And the 2 we have had where in vehicles that we purchased with the intent of flipping that we where told they had bad engines. However the condition of the vehicle and the price we purchased them for was to good of a deal not to install another engine in them. And we still cleared a minimum of $2-K profit. Even paying ourselves "Family shop rate".Including the purchase a known good engine, And doing a engine swap. We just put together a 2010 Yukon 5.3 (126-K) that was sold with a bad engine. Both the AFM and VVT shit the bed. After deleting both and a cheap BTR cam swap. We don't have $1200.00 (Total) in this SUV. And will be my oldest daughter's first car.
Maybe it's my clientele brining me junk! lol But, I'm glad you are able to make some extra coin fixing those! A little hard work and you can have yourself some nice stuff!
spinning that tool up just slowed Earth rotation a bit...
That is one of the downsides, sorry everyone.
Is that a shop made cutter or something off the shelf? And, just a standard 4th axis with a riser?
I custom made it for my needs. It is a standard HRT 310 on a 3" riser block.
Should the other head be machined to match?
Yes, they should be as close to each other as possible so both sides of the engine match compression.
The stroke speed is very fast on that Profilometer. You can slow that down and your end up with about an 18-20 finish. What grade insert are you using out of curiosity. Can? holder looks to be a cartridge off of a big facing mill?
I looked through the manual and I don't see any speed adjustment. There is a length adjustment, which is set on the longest setting. It is a PCD insert and the holder is made by baker equipment for surfacing machines.
What is that massive fly cutter you're using? I've never seen such a crazy big fly cutter in a CAT 40 spindle before
It is something that I custom made for my needs. It is modeled after some of the others I've seen on the market.
do you have to deck both head equally. meaning if this head took say .006 to deck and the first only took say .003 would you need take .003 off the first better head to keep the combustion chamber the same?
Generally, yes. And that is exactly what I did for this pair. First one cleaned up around .003" and had to go back in to match this one.
I got a question for you. So I have an lq4 with oringed block with a receiver groove in the aluminum head. How do you go about decking those? Do you have to recut the groove after everytime or is there usually a tolerance spec where you have some wiggle room if the head wasn't too warped.
If you're only taking off a thou or two, you might be able to get away with it. It depends on how much squish you want the o-ring to push into the gasket. Best practice is to recut the groove to the original depth.
Well it's aluminum and alloy, subject to distortion pretty easily.
Yes, aluminum is more prone than cast iron, but this was a little worse than usual!
Possibly caused by TTY bolts losing their torque?
Yes that is possible, in fact even though you don't hear much about it, imo TTY bolts get weak more often than we might think. Any head should retain it's torque specs thru out it's life, and I believe some of these lower quality bolts are junk and don't keep those specs... especially chinese junk. It always pays to use high quality bolts for long term use.
Possibly, but its more common for there to be an overheating situation or uneven cooling that causes a warp like this had.
By the name, torque to yield, you are bringing the fastener to its yield point, which is not the best for the life of the fastener. Better to run a fastener that doesn't have to reach yield to do the same amount of work.
@@paragonengines1924 Yes, but the head would still need the clearance to actually be able warp. I'd say it was a bit of both on this one.
how important is it deck the block if the heads where that far out of spec and still holding
It is more important if you are trying to get the most HP out of any engine you can. They may still hold fine, but we are more concerned with making sure every cylinder is contributing equally. Any mismatch in cylinder performance can rob power. Plus, we want to give the best work we can to our customers, so we shoot for perfection in all the machining we do!
I would be interested to know if you were able , between heads and block, to hit a number that allows use of a buyable head gasket to get compression back to spec or did you have to modify the valve seats.
Usually, the process starts with a desired compression ratio. Then we will get the pistons to get us close and mill the heads to make up the difference. We try to keep the quench at a certain number depending on application, and usually that is adjusted with a head gasket. But there are all kinds of different thing we can modify to get the compression we want.
I don't think that engine had been running with the head that way for very long. Don't think it would have run for long periods if it hadn't been taken Apart either.
From the story I was told, the motor had 300K+ miles on it and had spun a bearing. It didn't have any signs of gasket failure, but I agree, it wasn't long for this world!
The knock sensor is not calibrated fine enough and that's actually detonation beat in the head to death
Very well could be, who know what kind of gas and if the sensors were even working!
I got to know the name of the device you put on the head to check the smoothness I assume that’s what that’s for
The industry name is a profilometer. This particular one is made by Mahr and it's called the pocket surf. A required tool if you are doing any kind of precision machining.
I’ve taken .015” off and the guy ran them at the drag strip with a Chinebay turbo lol.
I bet that baby went 5.0 in the 1/8th, them China snails are wicked!
What is the absolute maximum that you can take off of an LS cylinder head? The finish that that particular cutting tools is absolutely amazing what speed are you running that and what type of color is it? Also what is the diameter of the piece the cutter is in? Also is something that smooth better or worse for a ceiling surface? I've been told you want a little bit of a texture like some of the cylinder heads come with the cnc lines. Just trying to learn a little? I just bought a Bridgeport. I don't think I can get that kind of speed out of it tho.
I have taken up to .040 off, but it starts to have issues with the intake manifold fitting right. We usually stop at .025". It is running about 4100 SFM at a 10 IPM feed, around 12" diameter with 1500 RPM. Not sure what you mean by color? The smoother the better for modern MLS gaskets! You can do some pretty good work in the bridge port if you have a tight machine and take your time to learn what speeds and feeds work for you. Main thing to do it make sure the setup is as rigid as possible and the machine is still tight.
No such thing as too smooth for MLS gaskets, however, too rough is. I rebuilt a Ford 4.6 modular engine out of a 97 f150 and from the factory the surface was just as rough as cast iron heads, and I know for a fact the engine had never even been taken apart since it was new. Back when they started MLS gaskets manufacturers screwed up and didn't realize how smooth the surface needs to be for MLS gaskets to seal. Copper spray does help for those surfaces, but only one thin layer, anything more is basically useless, especially around the combustion chambers. I ended up resurfacing the heads and the block, as both were just as rough with factory cuts. The heads were not warped at all, but could easily tell how the gaskets lost its hold between the cylinders due to the surface cut. Smoother is always better.
The CNC lines do not tell the story of RA. Most aftermarket Gaskets function with as coarse as a 85 RA (Fel-Pro stock replacement MLS). Some other MFG require lower numbers. The key is to target UNDER the require RA. for the gasket / application. As paragon has clearly done
I say if you need copper spray to make an MLS gasket seal, that something is amiss.
@@paragonengines1924 it can be amiss depends on conditions and how much money someone is willing to spend on a engine. Copper spray does work, but only for tiny pitting areas where decking could lead to a bottom end rebuild. If all it needs is cleaned up, a head gasket job on a old block, one thin layer of copper spray can save hundreds. The trick is knowing if it will work or not for a particular situation. It's useless around combustion areas, but can work good around water and oil ports. Imo, anytime a deck job is required, the bottom end should also be done if its got a lot of miles. With some pitting and no warpage copper spray can get you out of a high cost job. If it has warpage beyond specs then forget it, even a full can of copper spray won't do it... it's not meant to hold compression and won't.... that's been my two cent experience.
Is this a LS issue or any aluminum head?
Can be on any cylinder head, even cast iron. It's always good to check if not deck them so you have a fresh sealing surface for the new gaskets.
What was that last tool you took a measurement with?
He said... and you can read every bit of writing on it. Time to engage your brain and sort it out.
It's a profilometer. used to measure surface finish of materials.
@@paragonengines1924 thank you for that! I appreciate your answer. Not familiar with such a tool I'll look into it
You're welcome!
What datum surface are you working off of? How out is it?
The Z datum would be the deck surface. It was about .006" before it cleaned up.
"How it can still run and be that far out"
It wasn't that far out until it was disassembled..
I guess technically you would be correct because the bolts will pull the head flatter. But the bolts really shouldn't have to straighten the head out...
Dang. What is tour SFPM or RPM and radius.
Which insert are you running?
Thanks,
Mark
It's running about 4100 SFM, 1500 RPM on a 12" diameter. The aluminum uses PCD and I have a CBN for iron.
@@paragonengines1924 Awesome, thank you!
I am just using CBN and on aluminum, running 900 RPM with the 1/2" dia insert at 4" a minute. I think I can go faster.
Many thanks!
Mark
@@paragonengines1924 How fast on the iron?
I was getting sparks at 900 RPM...
The PCD will give you a much nicer finish, but they aren't cheap! The 4000 SFM seems to be a good starting point for both iron and aluminum with the single cutter.
I run the same speed on the iron. Make sure the insert you are using has a sharp edge. Don't use a cutter with a chamfer on the cutting edge, it will only give you trouble!
I just got my 823 heads back, 23 took .020 off
That will get you some compression!
@@paragonengines1924 get them down to my 317 heads I'm replacing, I had them milled .040 back about 10 years ago, back before I knew anything about ls engines
.040" is a lot, I'm sure that intake was a little tough to get on!
@@paragonengines1924 I'm 6 foot 7. 320 lbs. It went on, I didn't ask. Lmao
@@paragonengines1924 I calculate on my lq4 with stock Pistons, my compression is around 9.96
Likely, if any real power adder was installed that little spot should’ve just ran ok, it probably could’ve pushed the head gasket out at the wrong time and would’ve led to larger problems. At least as far as the guys that say use a straight edge and 60-grit sand paper anyway but, like they say shoulda, coulda, woulda won’t get you down the track every time reliability........ LEAVE THE MACHINE WORK TO THE MACHINISTS and the the wrench turning to the part swappers!!!
I personally prefer a motor that when I put my foot in it, I'm not wondering if it's the last time!
I personally prefer a motor that when I put my foot in it, I'm not puckered up hoping this is the last time!
What are you programming with?
I use fusion 360 for everything that I don't write the g-code out myself.
@@paragonengines1924 ok that's cool. Just curious. This is my first video. Will be checking back
Awesome! I appreciate the support!
what kind of insert did you use?
The blocks and iron heads we use a 1/2" CBN, and the aluminum heads get a 1/2" PCD. We only run a single cutter, even though I built it to have 2.
I want to see you machine it so flat that it seals without head gaskets. 😉
I would need a lapping table to make that happen!
@@paragonengines1924 I'd like to see that. Always been fascinated by being able to wring two gauge blocks together.
It is common on small aircraft engines, so I know it can be done!
I got a bunch of ls heads id like dipped clean and resurfaced. But all my local machine shops are months out. Are you accepting new clients if I can ship my heads to you? Able to ship them back upon completion?
Yes, we are still taking work in. We are able to ship back and forth if needed. But to be honest, we ourselves are a month or 2 out for that kind of work. Give us a call and we can work through the details if you would like!
how do you only have 33 subs
I appreciate that! just recently started uploading more so I'm hoping to grow a community of people wanting to see professional machine work done and share information about the proper ways to build high performance engines!
I mean a good MLS head gasket does wonders
No kidding!
Every real builder knows..... have the heads machined. Yes the gasket will seal it, but why chance it. Machine it and build it
Just because you can get away with it doesn't mean you should!
@@paragonengines1924 ain't that what I said? Machine it and build it?
Yes! I was agreeing with you!
What was the grand total that you took off? About 0.10 or lower? The reason why I asked is because I have a Chevy Aluminum 113 heads 58cc combustion chamber size, and with a flat top piston on a 350ci compression ratio is 10.1 My question is if I cut the heads 10 thousands off how much would it raise my compression ratio? Thanks.
If I remember correctly, I believe it was about .008". Every head is different, but a good rule of thumb is for every .005" removed from the head it will take away about 1CC. Then use that number and calculate to get your desired compression ratio!
@@paragonengines1924 Thanks
Don't worry I decked the pistons .010 on my wet stones 😂🍺
Nice! Make sure they have a nice sharp edge around the top lol
what? no tool change? lol just kidding, nice job
HAH! My Haas sales rep came by and said, "that is quite a cutter you have in there... make sure you don't do an automatic tool change!"
The blocks always need the deck face doing too. The factory machining is awful
Yep! They all need to get checked in my opinion!
lay it on a belt sander and send it. spending to much money.
Why use a belt sander? Hit it with a razor blade, slap a used gasket on there and put the boost to it!
Almost all aluminum heads need to be decked after use. Aluminum sucks.
I agree, most heads should be machined after being run. Aluminum does have some downsides, but with modern manufacturing and the advantages aluminum has over cast iron, it has become the standard for a reason.
i like to mill the shit out of it and then stack head gaskets to get the compression i want.
Going to have to try that on the next build lol
I would not trust most this setup is at best scary there is no mass in the underline of that work so this demonstration could be meaningless it is interesting made me think i have owned machine shop and we were in business for fifteen years and never had a comeback on surfacing the trick is to have as much control as possible and to double check every thing like the video just have QUESTIONS
This is the same type of set up as most surfacing machines run. I actually built it more robust than my dedicated DCM surfacer. Now I completely agree if I was trying to hog a bunch of material or drill large holes, this would not be the set up I would go with. Most of the cuts done with this set up are less than .005". At one point ran a support under the head along the valve cover rail, but it didn't make a difference in surface finish or dimensional accuracy, so I did away with it. let me know what other questions you have, and I'll do my best to answer them!
Get a coyote and no need to remove heads 😂
Yeah! I have heard they have those "run-for-life" heads that never need to be repaired! lol
Every ls build is see on here, they just slap the head back on... smh
Thats why I wanted to show why you shouldn't do that!
That's the fanciest machine I ever seen for resurfacing a cylinder head
Not only fancy but accurate!
@@paragonengines1924 it's awesome. I'm not used to CNC in engine shops. Also, I like how it changes the angle and then comes back exactly parallel with the tool again. That's not easy or cheap for the machine to be able to do it.
all that technology and you still need a skilled human to (at least) call the shots.... go figure.
One job that AI hasn't taken over... yet.
Itsss fine got another 400k on her
If it weren't for the spun main, it would probably still be going!
lmfao yea because we all have those machines in our shed and tons of money are you serious? :LS engines cost a grand. i throw LS heads around like theyre free, knowbody should be doing any machine work to a LS. stuff a cam in it turbo or nos and send it.
No, I don't expect you to have this machine, that's why I'm here to help! But our customers don't what to have to swap motors every weekend with junk yard parts. A little machining and the right parts can save you pulling the motor after every time you put your foot in it!