As others have stated; extreme defender does not "clog" It breaks bone. It does not deflect on auto glass and its angle of flight does not change through glass. I (at 52 years old) have no reservations in saying " This is the ultimate 9mm round"
As someone with a background in physics I feel compelled to point out that these bullets would not damage ACTUAL tissue beyond the bullet's diameter, the laws physics confirm this... Firstly lets think about hollow points and their expansion. The more energy they dump into the target, by the law of the conservation of energy/momentum, the more force it is applying to the target, and as a result, this loss of energy slows the bullet as the bullet itself damages more tissue. So, if we assumed the mechanism of damage in the bullets works, that resistance-force, redirected as 4 focused perpendicular-vectors, can actually tear/cut gel, and that they are not just stretching gelatin beyond gelatin's extremely low elastic limit (aka tearing point), then an EXPLANATION as to why the bullet isn't slowing-down when doing so is needed. It should he slowing down if it is actually imparting damaging force to the tissue, and the gel is not stretching too much. if perpendicular vectors were damaging the tissue, and again not just stretching it beyond gelatin's extremely low elastic limit*, the bullet would slow down like any hollowpoints does when damag9ng additional tissue. It would have to expend tremendous energy as some kind of unknown terminal ballistics wounding mechanism, such as theorized "jets" of gelatin/tissue/fluid that people say this bullet uses. But if it did that, the amount of energy it would take to creates "jets", or some other mechanism, that is strong enough to CUT FLESH would SLOW the bullet tremendously just as any energy conversion does. If it was cutting tissue, with whatever mechanism the perpendicular vectors are using, it would DECELERATE the bullet tremendously, just as normal resistance in wounding does... this is undeniable physics! The fact this bullet doesn't slow down when producing, what assume to be, tissue damage is evidence that is creating those tears via exploiting the poor elasticity of ballistics gelatin, a material weakness that actual flesh does not have. *About gelatins low elasticity and tensile strength: If you bend block a block of ballistics gel in half, it will tear almost or entirely in half. If you bend or stretch animal tissue in the same ways you will get zero tears. The medium, ballistics gel, was not to test stretching forces created by fluting on the bullet face like these have. Its merely meant to show damage of a physical object has past through a section of it... that's why we know with rifle rounds tested in gelatin you don't count the "permanent stretch cavity" as actual wounding, because though it tore the gel, such stretching doesn’t tear flesh. The xtreme penetrators & defenders are creating small overly stretched focal point in the gelatin that leave marks similar to hollowpoints was their flattened sections pass through the gel. If you took engineering physics (especially if you took a curriculum on thermodynamics), you should understand that if this round was imparting enough force to damage the tissue BEYOND THE DIAMETER OF THE BULLET ITSELF (and just gelatin being gelatin and tearing when it stretches) the bullet not would penetration in the same manner a a FMJ / Ball round. If it was imparting enough force to damage tissue beyond its diameter, it would be the laws of physics, DECELERATE as it expends energy damaging the simulated tissue. Instead you are seeing gelatin stretch due to the shape of the bullet converted head-on resistant forces perpendicular vertical vertices of force expelled at the and of the channels/recesses formed between the screw-driver like blades. And even if you assume this mechanism works, you have to admit the tissue has the ability to stretch without ripping like gelatin... so AT MOST the bullet would create a temporary stretch cavity the length bullet path, bit focused in four perpendicular vertices of forces instead of an equal force in all directions due to the fluking on the bullet. Again stretch cavities do not damage real tissue and if they can, they will slow the bullet by the laws of physics.
@@testing2741 well from what I know the xtreme defender does indeed decelerate a huge amount. I’ve seen them being compared to the xtreme penetrators, (same weight same caliber), only differences being the depth of the bullet fluting; and deceleration is significantly a lot on the defenders. So via your explanation I’m assuming that the xtreme defender fluting is doing tearing and damage as intended. Thank you for putting a scholarly angle on the subject.
@@carlossolis9824 Yep , recognizing the velocity of the Underwood Defender being significantly higher and penetration being less than the slower hollowpoint when shooting into jell through cloth material would mean it's dumping energy more efficiently and with the ability to go through auto glass with little to no deflection would make this round a +P++ . Does anyone have a test of auto glass deflection and penetration with this round ?
Stick a rack of thick ribs in a kevlar vest and a few layers of denim in front of your gel. Your JHP will become a ball round and not penetrate and the Lehigh will be 12-13" into your gel with the same damage. Your test is flawed, this round was designed to be "barrier blind". Realistically, it's barrier 20/10. You can shoot through tempered auto glass without breaking it's trajectory & it certainly won't petal on the glass before it's trajectory is broken. I bought up Underwood +P and +P+ from Midway USA @.$85/round when it was new on the market. My grandfather carries a little Sig P938 in Wyoming up in the mountains on his land and the Extreme Penetrator saved his life from an attacking grizzly. You'd need to mag dump a drum of gold dot's or any JHP to even pray for those results. Lehigh/Underwood are the bee's knee's!!
I carry a mag of this as my reload at work as an armed guard at a school. Our windows are storm windows so I have these if I need to shoot through the windows
I had a gunsmith friend tell me that 90-grain bullets were very accurate in 9 mm's which I have found true. I am more a fan of kinetic energy, so I prefer fast-moving bullets over heavy bullets.
If your struggling to see if Underwood is better or worth it over the Gold Dot let me help you. The Underwood has an extreme advantage over the Gold Dots in almost every way. If you shoot through drywall first into gel Gold Dot will not expand. Not good. The Underwood will pass through drywall and still do the same amount of damage in the gel as if the drywall was not there. The underwood in 9mm (+P 90gr) weighs only 90 grains per round. 90 gr x 14 rounds only weighs 1,530 grains you’ll be carrying with you if you have a CCW all day plus the weight of the gun. So lighter all around is better than heavier. The Gold Dots are 115 gr x 17 rounds = 1955 grains to carry around. Also Since the Underwood Extreme defenders are only 90 grains, when you shoot them you have far less muzzle flip/recoil than 115 grain gold dots. Underwood is almost always less recoil than any other hollow point round out there which results in much faster more accurate follow up shots or double taps. Whatever you shoot through any medium with underwood you almost always get 17” on average penetration depth, even through windshield, 16 gauge steel, drywall, or 2x4. Wound cavitation with Underwood is twice the diameter as gold dot or even HST for that matter. Last, price is only $28 per box. Last week when I checked is had dropped to only $21/ box, even during the fake pandemic. What an awesome company that would drop prices during a pandemic and ammo shortage when all other companies are raising prices.
I have seen the data with the underwood and what convinced me to use it in my EDC is that it's "barrier blind" and I don't mean fabric, this continues to perform like a hollow point after passing through wood, drywall and glass. Hollow points have to be designed to prevent the cavity from filling with debris like ballistic tips, etc. Still you get uneven performance.
I've seen a video from another guntuber that compared this ammo with critical defense. Somehow, when shot through wood, the critical defense' hollowpoint cavity was sufficiently clogged to prevent expansion despite the polymer flex tip intended to prevent that. The overpenetration that ensued was kinda nuts. The xtreme defense seems to be the best 9mm round Ive seen so far. Have you seen anything comparable?
I use Extreme Defense in all my pistols, and Controlled Chaos in my long guns. Hope to avoid trying it on a 2 legged target, but I have confidence that it will perform admirably.
@@rickterrance4981 Not necessarily. Dr. Fackler's estimation of ~2200 fps, and others' around 2000 fps, are limited to ammo/variables then at hand. Projectile velocity, BC, mass, sectional density, and shape all affect whether TSC --> PWC. For instance, a .300 BLK super pushing around 1800-2000 fps out of a 5.5" pistol/SBR will produce rifle wounding within 100-150 yds. An Underwood .458 SOCOM at 1840 fps (same fluted projectile from Lehigh) produces DEVASTING rifle wounding under the presumed magic velocity number: ua-cam.com/video/OVkWPerR6kE/v-deo.html (IraqVeteran8888's video entitled "Underwood Ammo .458 SOCOM").
@@rickterrance4981 I don't agree with that. That's like saying being hit with a baseball bat has no real damage on your body because it was too slow and only temporary damage. It's still going to cause busted blood vessels and hemorrhages and damage.
@@rickterrance4981 THANK YOU! These are just making little micro "permanent stretch cavities" that, if you know how to interpret ballistics gel, are showing the left-over tears from stretching more than gel can handle; and this does not equate to damage in actual tissue - real tissue doesn't rip in half when you bend it, not like bow ballistics gel does. Gelatin is only good for showing where projectiles and objects have passed through it, it is not good for measuring stretch forces AT ALL. These rounds are tricking people by exploiting gelatins inability to stretch like real tissue
Any body ever been shot? I got shot from the side and then from behind while disarming an attacker that was trying to break into my house, I was taking my garbage out when I walked around a corner and was face to face with him. (I was shot by the get away driver) the first shot hit me in the side and wasn’t immediately incapacitating. The second hit me an inch to the right of my L1 vertebrate and the shock totally disrupted my nervous system in ways I didn’t know was possible. My legs buckled and my nerves went completely haywire for a second. They ran to their car and I got up and went inside to call a wambulance.
I carry both. In my primary Glock 26, I have the 65 grain + P Xtreme Defender. One of my backup mags. I have the 90 grain. Plus P plus love both the penetration and the velocity
I have hst and also +p 68 for my carry. Hst because it shows bigger initial wounds. Underwood for everything else plus its known for tumbling a few times on slow mo.
Absolutely! Underwood will amaze and Define logic. Most of the ballistics I seen it was consistent all the time regardless of what it was penetrating. Which makes it far superior in my book.
As someone with a background in physics I feel compelled to point out that these bullets would not damage ACTUAL tissue beyond the bullet's diameter, the laws physics confirm this... Firstly lets think about hollow points and their expansion. The more energy they dump into the target, by the law of the conservation of energy/momentum, the more force it is applying to the target, and as a result, this loss of energy slows the bullet as the bullet itself damages more tissue. So, if we assumed the mechanism of damage in the bullets works, that resistance-force, redirected as 4 focused perpendicular-vectors, can actually tear/cut gel, and that they are not just stretching gelatin beyond gelatin's extremely low elastic limit (aka tearing point), then an EXPLANATION as to why the bullet isn't slowing-down when doing so is needed. It should he slowing down if it is actually imparting damaging force to the tissue, and the gel is not stretching too much. if perpendicular vectors were damaging the tissue, and again not just stretching it beyond gelatin's extremely low elastic limit*, the bullet would slow down like any hollowpoints does when damag9ng additional tissue. It would have to expend tremendous energy as some kind of unknown terminal ballistics wounding mechanism, such as theorized "jets" of gelatin/tissue/fluid that people say this bullet uses. But if it did that, the amount of energy it would take to creates "jets", or some other mechanism, that is strong enough to CUT FLESH would SLOW the bullet tremendously just as any energy conversion does. If it was cutting tissue, with whatever mechanism the perpendicular vectors are using, it would DECELERATE the bullet tremendously, just as normal resistance in wounding does... this is undeniable physics! The fact this bullet doesn't slow down when producing, what assume to be, tissue damage is evidence that is creating those tears via exploiting the poor elasticity of ballistics gelatin, a material weakness that actual flesh does not have. *About gelatins low elasticity and tensile strength: If you bend block a block of ballistics gel in half, it will tear almost or entirely in half. If you bend or stretch animal tissue in the same ways you will get zero tears. The medium, ballistics gel, was not to test stretching forces created by fluting on the bullet face like these have. Its merely meant to show damage of a physical object has past through a section of it... that's why we know with rifle rounds tested in gelatin you don't count the "permanent stretch cavity" as actual wounding, because though it tore the gel, such stretching doesn’t tear flesh. The xtreme penetrators & defenders are creating small overly stretched focal point in the gelatin that leave marks similar to hollowpoints was their flattened sections pass through the gel. If you took engineering physics (especially if you took a curriculum on thermodynamics), you should understand that if this round was imparting enough force to damage the tissue BEYOND THE DIAMETER OF THE BULLET ITSELF (and just gelatin being gelatin and tearing when it stretches) the bullet not would penetration in the same manner a a FMJ / Ball round. If it was imparting enough force to damage tissue beyond its diameter, it would be the laws of physics, DECELERATE as it expends energy damaging the simulated tissue. Instead you are seeing gelatin stretch due to the shape of the bullet converted head-on resistant forces perpendicular vertical vertices of force expelled at the and of the channels/recesses formed between the screw-driver like blades. And even if you assume this mechanism works, you have to admit the tissue has the ability to stretch without ripping like gelatin... so AT MOST the bullet would create a temporary stretch cavity the length bullet path, bit focused in four perpendicular vertices of forces instead of an equal force in all directions due to the fluking on the bullet. Again stretch cavities do not damage real tissue and if they can, they will slow the bullet by the laws of physics.
@@testing2741 apparently you need to watch more ballistics tests with this round including tests with meat targets. Many of the tests show without a doubt that there's damage beyond the diameter of the projectile. Most physics are undeniable and proven but physics still require proper calculation and all the factors to be considered. For instance you failed to consider the amount of energy it takes to bend the metal projectile into it's classic mushroom/flower expanded shape. That is a tremendous amount of energy that has little to do with tissue damage. That energy is divided into two parts. The resistance of the tissue that it takes to bend those ears back and the resistance of the metal as it is bending back. Then it's a larger diameter and also has cutting properties. There is also I thing called trauma. The temporary stretch may not do permanent damage in your opinion to tissue but blood vessels are also tissue and they most certainly sustain permanent trauma damage from a projectile of this type beyond the diameter of the projectile. If you don't believe that, 1: you need to watch more videos on the ballistics projectiles of this type. 2: you have to apply your physics to the military use of the 556 round which is no larger in diameter than a 22 cal. There have been billions of rounds fired of 556 that prove that hydrostatic shock is real and produces more damage than just the diameter of the projectile. You need to go back to your calculator and do some figuring because you're missing something in your calculations.
@SilentDiablo exactly! Using the logic of "testing2741": a bowling ball will never be able to make a complete strike it will only knock down the 123 pins. I think he needs a refund on his Physics degree.
I'm not sure why some people call these a gimmick. No way to really know how they would perform in a living mammal without autopsy, but at the very least they would do as well as a traditional HP (wound channel) They don't over penetrate, so they are dumping their energy and the reduced recoil helps with shot placement. With a handgun, shot placement and deep penetration will stop the threat IMO. 1-2 inches of over penetration in gel is no big deal.
The government actually tested these on beef and found out that their performance was vastly superior to every other round. drive.google.com/file/d/1Z6gdk_JdqKkYlUHqABWwb8Bh8dK2rHqo/view
I carry a 3.7" barrel and the Xtreme Defender ammo. With this shorter barrel it does not over penetrate, while still penetrating plenty enough. The XD is barrier blind, which gives it an advantage over the Gold Dot. I would carry the Gold Dot in warmer months (I plan to) but I ONLY carry the Xtreme Defender in the cold months when people are wearing layers or thick, heavy coats and jackets. A typical hollow point often times clogs and acts like a FMJ round and over penetrates in this circumstance. The XD will not over penetrate while still slicing through whatever it needs to get through.
@@TheKalkara131 - That's consistent with what I've seen for Gold Dot barrier tests. No, not "as good" as the XD, but not far behind, and certainly acceptable. However, by pure laws of physics, with the XD being solid copper that does not rely on deformation in order to do it's job (maximum damage while not sacrificing penetration) it is understandable why the XD performs slightly better than the deformation reliant Gold Dot. I will be carrying the Gold Dot this summer as I am going to be shooting out my XD rounds that I've been carrying for almost 3 years. When cold weather comes again I will be buying more of the XD, but switching back to Gold Dot when it gets warm again.
Who’s saying bad things about Underwood? I thought people generally liked their ammo. I’ve shot LOTS of their Ammo in many different calibers with nothing but positive experiences. It’s solid ammo. Like any ammo maker you can have a Lot that’s lower than advertised FPS. Their prices have gotten crappy lately. They’re never likely to go back down either, which sucks. I still have a lot of fun shooting their ammo in .380acp, 9mm, .357sig, .357 Mag, 10mm & .44mag. Oh well.
I finally test-fired these from my Beretta 92 Compact with a 14 lb spring and new shockbuff. They kick more than Underwood's 124 grain +P Speer gold dots which I thought were reasonably stout rounds. The ballistic crack in the range was way more noticeable as well with the 90 grain +p+. Dark orange flash as seen at a well lit shooting range.
Eyy 92c carry gang the rounds just have a built in flash bang. If you want to have fun run the 150gr hst micro out of the 92c. Didn’t have any issue cycling and felt like I was shooting a 32
Synthetic clear gel has a slightly different consistency than organic ballistic gel, so clear gel shows deeper penetration than brown gel would. I've read 20-30% variance. Split the difference and call it 25% discrepancy. Reduce 19.25 in to 14.5 in brown gel.
I'm curious as to why there is such a large discrepancy between this gel and the Knox 10% gel used by Guns&Cars ua-cam.com/video/76TNHmoW1eM/v-deo.html when testing the Xtreme Defender 68gr+P and 90gr. Guns&Cars says that the largest point of PWC was ~2.25"+ wide.
Good stuff, thank you. I use the Underwood +P in my SW Shield 3.1" barrel its supposed to be barrier blind for wood ,clothing and metal also. I do know it stopped my attacker with 1 shot and dropped him in his tracks never moved until Police arrived and lived. Good stuff ill never trust anything else in my Shield. I use HST 124g +p in my Glock 17 4.5" barrel for home defence.
That's awesome to hear! It's a shame that you had to use it, but I'm glad it worked for you. I did a video simulating the FBI Barrier Test using the Underwood and a Gold Dot. Suffice to say, the Underwood was pretty damn good through most barriers
Phil. I’m soo grateful you were able to get out of that situation and let us know your experience with the Underwood in a real life situation. Out of your Shield, we’re you using the 68 or 90 grain +P?
I live here in alaska and for a 9mm this round is devastating!!!!🤯 it actually kept up with a 10mm hard cast fmj regular loads on penetration and some people took down 1000 lb. Brown Bears with the 9mm...I love these rounds💯
Try telling fudds about how 9mm is more than capable of taking bear and prepare for a shitshow. You can try and explain how bigger caliber handguns are harder to shoot (from the 1st shot to successive shots) and keep on target, but it's just a waste of time.
@@calcosPR yeah they're capable with the right ammo and some well placed shots but seeing how large they get late fall I'd still prefer a 10mm or 454, Alaska has some of the deadliest animals and can't ever underestimate em or get over confident with just a 9mm, I've seen some take a shot with the .338 n still charge, I'm just saying the Underwood ammo a better chance of small calibers being a more effective defense roumd
@@calcosPR yeah they're capable with the right ammo and some well placed shots but seeing how large they get late fall I'd still prefer a 10mm or 454, Alaska has some of the deadliest animals and can't ever underestimate em or get over confident with just a 9mm, I've seen some take a shot with the .338 n still charge, I'm just saying the Underwood ammo a better chance of small calibers being a more effective defense roumd
@@calcosPR yeah they're capable with the right ammo and some well placed shots but seeing how large they get late fall I'd still prefer a 10mm or 454, Alaska has some of the deadliest animals and can't ever underestimate em or get over confident with just a 9mm, I've seen some take a shot with the .338 n still charge, I'm just saying the Underwood ammo a better chance of small calibers being a more effective defense round
I think that was their penetrator. These are a little different. One of the videos I watched the guy said the brown bear they had heard of, it was 8 shots of the 9mm penetrators and the autopsy couldn't determine which shot was the killing shot.
Everyone talks about the Gold Dot but that Underwood is my go to defense round. It’s absolutely devastating and I haven’t seen anything perform better. The reason you buy the extreme defender is because it’s near barrier blind and doesn’t need to use the projectile to expand in. Car Windshield, dry wall, etc could be a factor in a self defense situation. Underwood for the win!!!
@@Roboticdoughbull3k for sure. Everyone always talks about over penetration but that’s a factor with any projectile unless you never miss!!! I’m also of the belief that you should know what’s beyond your target, but sometimes you have to make split second decisions. In that event surviving and protecting others is the first priority and stopping the threat ensures that. That round does everything well and doesn’t really on bullet expansion. It’s expensive but we’ll worth it. I grab it from Gorilla too.
I load these exact rounds in my shorter barrel carry guns (Hellcat, Glock 43). I load Speer or Federal HST 124 gr or 124gr +P, or Underwood Gold Dot 124gr+P+ in my longer barrel guns. I love Speer. It's also what I load my 357Sig and .45 1911 with. It's just physics. Hollow points have inconsistent expansion and penetration in shorter barrels. You did this test with a G17. A test with 3in barrels would've been different. Thanks for the video!
How does the +p+ underwood do in your hellcat? Any issues? Recoil? I’m considering buying some for mine. I’ve ordered a stronger guide rod/spring in preparation.
.45 super in a 5” barrel makes even better use of it. @1,700 FPS the extra large flutes do bizarrely well in gel. I wish someone would make a UA-cam quality video of it.
I'm going to buy a few boxes of Underwood after this video, you get hollow point damage, but act like a fmj, it's a defensive round that epuld gladly go through glass if it had too, hollow points aren't that great going through glass and perpetrator. All out self defense.
Watched a video where the shooter swore that he had stood on a junk car and shot through the windshield withe the Underwood Ammo and didn't have any deflection of the bullets path into the target on the car seat , he tried a variety of H.P. and they all deflected and missed the target , so taking the ability to defeat barriers and still get the job done it is in a class of it's own , just bought some at 25% off sale for the 4th of July and that defeats the price objection ,it was actually cheaper than the Gold Dot !
I know this is older but I find no reason to use hot loads with this kind of ammo. I just put 68gr 90gr and 115gr standard pressure rounds thru a test myself and they all performed extremely well. Also All 3 ripped right thru 2 different well know level llla soft armor panels. Absolutely insane rounds with a lot of energy dump in the first 12” !
There is a chance that ANY Hollow Point will clog and act more like ball ammo. No expansion, no sizable wound channel, just a straight path through the medium and over penetration. The Underwood is designed not to expand but do excellent penetration and devastating damage without even a question of clogging up and under performing. The only reason I am watching this video is to see more Underwood ammo in action. Go back and watch the slo-mo of the Underwood. That was impressive. The Gold Dot also looked good but only if it never clogs with clothing, sheet rock, plywood, car door, etc.
I have a little stock of personal defense 9mm ammo and I just got a 20 round box of the underwood rounds you go over in this video (90 grain) and a 20 round box of Speer Gold dots. I had about 45 rounds of Federal HST, 50 IMI, and about 15 Hornady critical defense or american gunner I can't remember which. But what I carry in the actual mags in both my 9mm (and I know they say not to do this) is 3 to 5 underwood, then 3 to 5 gold dots, then in my compact (not subcompact) I top it off with the HST's. Since they say most civilian encounters where shots are actually fired are resolved with 2 or 3 shots, it kinda goes without saying the logic how I have my mags loaded. Thanks for the upload! Subbed, and look forward to more content!
What is over penetration? I'm not LE so in self defense if the round pass through the threat it might be a problem. VA has a ban of use of other then lead core so no solid anything else copper, steel. Nice test!
If your state bans anything not lead core, I'd stick with tried and true hollow points. Speer gold dot or Federal HST. Overpenetration is if you hit your target, your bullet may continue onwards through them. Can it happen? Yes, however, in my opinion, people worry about it more than they should. Look around you. As a general rule, there's a whole lot more empty space than human bodies around you at any given time. I have some videos testing overpenetration also
From what I've seen coming from other guntubers, the xtreme defender generally ignores everything up to, and including light barriers such as dry wall, wood, and sheet metal with consistent terminal effects (penetration/cavity) to the target as if they were naked. Meanwhile, hollowpoints generally had the negative habit of getting their cavity clogged, preventing proper expansion after passing through a material at least as dense as wood, causing minimal wound cavity width/possible overpenetration. Military arms channel did this test. The xtreme defender, like full metal jacket rounds, is effectively a barrier-blind round with comparable/superior terminal ballistics to hollowpoints used against a naked target. Also, according to military arms channel, the 90grain +P+ load seems to have enough velocity behind it to at least beat 2A body armor. The round overall seems to be absurdly good to the point I think the only other 9mm bullet worth considering for possible niche use in self defense would be 50 grain liberty civil defense for being slightly more effective VS soft armor such as 3A due to its velocity.
Not so much the clothing clogging up the hollow point as what happens to a hollow point when it hits a hard surface such bone wood glass metal. Etc it will either deform the hollow point or plug it.
I'm planning a follow up to this video, testing the two rounds against barriers. Just have to build and source the materials and find more of the ammo in stock.
@@TheKalkara131 Military arms channel sorta beat you to the punch there, but I would be interested in seeing the 90grain +P+ xtreme defender go head to head against the 50 grain liberty civil defense on 2A and 3A soft body armor, and barriers with ballistic gel behind it. MAC sorta established the xtreme defender put almost every popular hollowpoint to shame in consistency through barriers. ua-cam.com/video/0piGeTVMZWs/v-deo.html Would be more interesting to see something more niche such as the liberty civil defense go up against it with it's abnormally low weight, high velocity, and potential to punch through 3A body armor. Outside of that, the xtreme defender in +P, and +P+ seem to be THE rounds to have.
Earlier HPs presented the risk of clogging with fabric and never expanding. In order to facilitate more reliable expansion, the front end of HP bullets began to be constructed weaker and weaker, like the crumple zones of modern automobiles. But this made them vulnerable to hard barriers, which could just as easily crumple hollow point structures inwardly as they triggered expansion. So some modern JHPs seek to strengthen and reinforce their noses once again, in hopes of finding a happy medium. But these bypass all that by being constructed of a solid hardened material while still achieving an expansion effect without the projectile having to expand, itself.
@@zackzittel7683 Yea I'd be interested in body armor myself. Especially the Liberty Civil Defense and the Fort Scott Munitions. All of thier 9mm and 10mm go through body armor and I'm really eager to see what the 45acp's can do.
There are some evil bastards doing things in body armor lately. I like the barrier blindness of the underwood. They also have a 68 grain and velocity beats armor
Knowing this is a 3+ year old video, I believe those are the old style of XD, and it would be cool to see you revisit this test with the newer version of XD +P+ vs SGD to see if Lehigh have dialed back the penetration and increased the permanent wound channel.
Put the gold dot through real barriers, not cloth. In real situations with denim, drywall, glass or sheet metal the Underwood is beyond better. The gold dot and most other jhp are not barrier blind.
A good test I would love to see someone perform would be like a definitive 9mm defense round. Like a standard fbi testing with denim and ballistic gel. Maybe get like 5-10 of the supposed best defensive rounds and see which does the best. Maybe even get some watermelons to see another medium for expansion tests.
Could someone help me can I run these in my Glock 19x and 26. Glock said they don’t recommend it and friends have said it will blow my gun up. Please help.
The issue is that technically there's no standard for +P+ ammunition, so different companies can load them to different pressures. You'd be taking a risk, but your Glocks could probably run them just fine. I've shot them through my G45. If you're really worried about it, just run the +P version.
Last thing I'm going to add great test, but this is why I stopped caring hollow-points. You never know the angle or the shot that you're going to get there for clothing effects that much for in and penetration. You don't know what bones going to do or if you got to go through a door. You cannot predict that penetration at least with the Xtreme Defender you are going to get the same kind of tration with not as much resistance against clothing bone Metals Etc. Have a good night everybody.
Since when is a dollar around expensive for defensive ammo? I seem to remember defensive ammo always running over a dollar a bullet even before the shortage. At least any of the good stuff was.
@@mblake0420 seems to me that defensive ammo was often selling for about 20 or $25 for a box of 20 or 25. I will have to dig up receipts I guess because I bought some Underwood Xtreme Defender before the ammo crisis and during the crisis and it was the same price. And now it is up a couple bucks a box but everything is up right now due to inflation. Thanks Joe😡
@@mblake0420 come on now you know as well as I do a lot of the higher-end defensive ammo only sells in 20 and 25 round boxes. I know you could get it in 50-round boxes of some Brands but a lot of it does not sell that way. Usually it's only the cheaper stuff that sells 50 rounds self defense ammo.
I stick with the underwood, because once you start going through thicker barriers, especially sheet metal(or a material that can cup the top of the round), nearly all tests I've seen result in significant over penetration...like through 2 gel blocks and 1-3 gallons of water. So we are looking at well over 30in of penetration. Even real thick clothing or wood (sometimes) can cause this dramatic over penetration. All the test I have seen with the xtreme defender 90gr, 90gr+p, 90gr+p+ and the 65gr +p+ are totally barrier blind and penetrate between 15-20 inches. If your adversary has up to level IIIa, not 3a ceramic or arSteel, the 2 underwood +p+ will penetrate up to and including IIIa armor. Anyway good first couple of vids, keep it up. You might want to switch over to Parler and Rumbler so you won't be sensored by the bots and snowflakes determining monetization. 👍👍
What's your source on the 90grain +P+ Xtreme Defender beating 3A soft armor? If that's the case, that makes even 50grain liberty civil defense look redundant.
@@zeeg928 I see the markings, but cannot read them. I color coded the whole box by using a red Sharpie for +P+ and blue for +P. That - or I could shoot myself in the hand with both and see which one stings more...
Barriers , people are not just made up of squishy sof to gel , they have bones , also, you're not guaranteed.The shot.You're going to be able to take what if it's to a windshield.What if it's through a door car door medal , you know
While not the brightest bulb in the pack, Kalkara131 spends 10 minutes trashing the XD design before starting the test, then looks for reasons to discredit it’s excellent performance. Bottom line the XD’s are barrier blind and perform 100% of the time vs a 25-30% failure rate of hollow points.
Dude, I'm just an old incandescent, I can't hold a candle to you. I truly aspire to be as bright as angrysheepdog9744, with his illustrious, well thought out, and in depth content. Surely he has a few hundred thousand followers. I do tend to ramble, and this was one of my earliest videos, admittedly. Since this, I've done several videos on the Xtreme Defender and demonstrated that it works very well. It's what I personally carry.
@@TheKalkara131 What can I say your wattage has definitely increased Kakara131, there's hope for you yet. Just saw your 68gr video. Not a big fan of that weight either due to it's instability...maybe at SBR rifle speeds in 357SIG it makes sense. Can't go wrong with 90gr XD in 9mm / 90gr XP .380 for pocket carry. More +'s the better.
$1/round that is cheap! Sure miss the Good Ole days pre-Biden! The Defender round will out-perform the Gold Dot in a windshield test into gel, and probably every other kind of barrier that is solid like drywall, wood, etc. A good strategy would be to leverage Gold Dots as your first couple rounds, then use the Underwood for the rest.
I'm so glad your alright and we'll enough to talk about it, and I agree. My 9mm's would see nothing but HST's or Hydra Shocks for the expansion pedals or even better the +p+ rounds to really make 9mm have a good impact on the intended target.
Oh yeah? Well you annoy me too Humphry. Whiney, bitchy, no content having ass. If you don't like my videos, there's this foreign concept you can embrace: don't watch
As others have stated; extreme defender does not "clog" It breaks bone. It does not deflect on auto glass and its angle of flight does not change through glass. I (at 52 years old) have no reservations in
saying " This is the ultimate 9mm
round"
thats right. And best 45. check out grindhard ammo.
As someone with a background in physics I feel compelled to point out that these bullets would not damage ACTUAL tissue beyond the bullet's diameter, the laws physics confirm this...
Firstly lets think about hollow points and their expansion. The more energy they dump into the target, by the law of the conservation of energy/momentum, the more force it is applying to the target, and as a result, this loss of energy slows the bullet as the bullet itself damages more tissue.
So, if we assumed the mechanism of damage in the bullets works, that resistance-force, redirected as
4 focused perpendicular-vectors, can actually tear/cut gel, and that they are not just stretching gelatin beyond gelatin's extremely low elastic limit (aka tearing point), then an EXPLANATION as to why the bullet isn't slowing-down when doing so is needed. It should he slowing down if it is actually imparting damaging force to the tissue, and the gel is not stretching too much. if perpendicular vectors were damaging the tissue, and again not just stretching it beyond gelatin's extremely low elastic limit*, the bullet would slow down like any hollowpoints does when damag9ng additional tissue. It would have to expend tremendous energy as some kind of unknown terminal ballistics wounding mechanism, such as theorized "jets" of gelatin/tissue/fluid that people say this bullet uses. But if it did that, the amount of energy it would take to creates "jets", or some other mechanism, that is strong enough to CUT FLESH would SLOW the bullet tremendously just as any energy conversion does. If it was cutting tissue, with whatever mechanism the perpendicular vectors are using, it would DECELERATE the bullet tremendously, just as normal resistance in wounding does... this is undeniable physics!
The fact this bullet doesn't slow down when producing, what assume to be, tissue damage is evidence that is creating those tears via exploiting the poor elasticity of ballistics gelatin, a material weakness that actual flesh does not have.
*About gelatins low elasticity and tensile strength:
If you bend block a block of ballistics gel in half, it will tear almost or entirely in half. If you bend or stretch animal tissue in the same ways you will get zero tears.
The medium, ballistics gel, was not to test stretching forces created by fluting on the bullet face like these have. Its merely meant to show damage of a physical object has past through a section of it... that's why we know with rifle rounds tested in gelatin you don't count the "permanent stretch cavity" as actual wounding, because though it tore the gel, such stretching doesn’t tear flesh. The xtreme penetrators & defenders are creating small overly stretched focal point in the gelatin that leave marks similar to hollowpoints was their flattened sections pass through the gel.
If you took engineering physics (especially if you took a curriculum on thermodynamics), you should understand that if this round was imparting enough force to damage the tissue BEYOND THE DIAMETER OF THE BULLET ITSELF (and just gelatin being gelatin and tearing when it stretches) the bullet not would penetration in the same manner a a FMJ / Ball round.
If it was imparting enough force to damage tissue beyond its diameter, it would be the laws of physics, DECELERATE as it expends energy damaging the simulated tissue.
Instead you are seeing gelatin stretch due to the shape of the bullet converted head-on resistant forces perpendicular vertical vertices of force expelled at the and of the channels/recesses formed between the screw-driver like blades. And even if you assume this mechanism works, you have to admit the tissue has the ability to stretch without ripping like gelatin... so AT MOST the bullet would create a temporary stretch cavity the length bullet path, bit focused in four perpendicular vertices of forces instead of an equal force in all directions due to the fluking on the bullet. Again stretch cavities do not damage real tissue and if they can, they will slow the bullet by the laws of physics.
@@testing2741 well from what I know the xtreme defender does indeed decelerate a huge amount. I’ve seen them being compared to the xtreme penetrators, (same weight same caliber), only differences being the depth of the bullet fluting; and deceleration is significantly a lot on the defenders. So via your explanation I’m assuming that the xtreme defender fluting is doing tearing and damage as intended. Thank you for putting a scholarly angle on the subject.
@@carlossolis9824 Yep , recognizing the velocity of the Underwood Defender being significantly higher and penetration being less than the slower hollowpoint when shooting into jell through cloth material would mean it's dumping energy more efficiently and with the ability to go through auto glass with little to no deflection would make this round a +P++ .
Does anyone have a test of auto glass deflection and penetration with this round ?
Stick a rack of thick ribs in a kevlar vest and a few layers of denim in front of your gel. Your JHP will become a ball round and not penetrate and the Lehigh will be 12-13" into your gel with the same damage. Your test is flawed, this round was designed to be "barrier blind". Realistically, it's barrier 20/10. You can shoot through tempered auto glass without breaking it's trajectory & it certainly won't petal on the glass before it's trajectory is broken. I bought up Underwood +P and +P+ from Midway USA @.$85/round when it was new on the market. My grandfather carries a little Sig P938 in Wyoming up in the mountains on his land and the Extreme Penetrator saved his life from an attacking grizzly. You'd need to mag dump a drum of gold dot's or any JHP to even pray for those results. Lehigh/Underwood are the bee's knee's!!
I carry a mag of this as my reload at work as an armed guard at a school. Our windows are storm windows so I have these if I need to shoot through the windows
I had a gunsmith friend tell me that 90-grain bullets were very accurate in 9 mm's which I have found true. I am more a fan of kinetic energy, so I prefer fast-moving bullets over heavy bullets.
If your struggling to see if Underwood is better or worth it over the Gold Dot let me help you. The Underwood has an extreme advantage over the Gold Dots in almost every way. If you shoot through drywall first into gel Gold Dot will not expand. Not good. The Underwood will pass through drywall and still do the same amount of damage in the gel as if the drywall was not there. The underwood in 9mm (+P 90gr) weighs only 90 grains per round. 90 gr x 14 rounds only weighs 1,530 grains you’ll be carrying with you if you have a CCW all day plus the weight of the gun. So lighter all around is better than heavier. The Gold Dots are 115 gr x 17 rounds = 1955 grains to carry around. Also Since the Underwood Extreme defenders are only 90 grains, when you shoot them you have far less muzzle flip/recoil than 115 grain gold dots. Underwood is almost always less recoil than any other hollow point round out there which results in much faster more accurate follow up shots or double taps. Whatever you shoot through any medium with underwood you almost always get 17” on average penetration depth, even through windshield, 16 gauge steel, drywall, or 2x4. Wound cavitation with Underwood is twice the diameter as gold dot or even HST for that matter. Last, price is only $28 per box. Last week when I checked is had dropped to only $21/ box, even during the fake pandemic. What an awesome company that would drop prices during a pandemic and ammo shortage when all other companies are raising prices.
I have seen the data with the underwood and what convinced me to use it in my EDC is that it's "barrier blind" and I don't mean fabric, this continues to perform like a hollow point after passing through wood, drywall and glass. Hollow points have to be designed to prevent the cavity from filling with debris like ballistic tips, etc. Still you get uneven performance.
I've seen a video from another guntuber that compared this ammo with critical defense. Somehow, when shot through wood, the critical defense' hollowpoint cavity was sufficiently clogged to prevent expansion despite the polymer flex tip intended to prevent that. The overpenetration that ensued was kinda nuts.
The xtreme defense seems to be the best 9mm round Ive seen so far. Have you seen anything comparable?
Exactly. The lehigh/underwood is more reliable to perform under any conditions.
I use Extreme Defense in all my pistols, and Controlled Chaos in my long guns. Hope to avoid trying it on a 2 legged target, but I have confidence that it will perform admirably.
Yes can u imagine them in 45 that's two holes in and out
@@TheRealZJE313 Yep- I rock the Underwood in .45 SUPER. - 120 gr Extreme Defender @1600Fps./700ft/lbs. It's remarkable. It works. Looks a .308 in gel.
I know which one I would pick if my life was in danger.
The temporary wound channel from the Lehigh defense Underwood bullet was more than the gold dot. In the slow mo you can tell.
Yea but keep in mind that tissue affected by the temporary stretch cavity only gets damaged when you have rifle velocity around 2000fps or more.
@@rickterrance4981 Not necessarily. Dr. Fackler's estimation of ~2200 fps, and others' around 2000 fps, are limited to ammo/variables then at hand. Projectile velocity, BC, mass, sectional density, and shape all affect whether TSC --> PWC. For instance, a .300 BLK super pushing around 1800-2000 fps out of a 5.5" pistol/SBR will produce rifle wounding within 100-150 yds. An Underwood .458 SOCOM at 1840 fps (same fluted projectile from Lehigh) produces DEVASTING rifle wounding under the presumed magic velocity number: ua-cam.com/video/OVkWPerR6kE/v-deo.html (IraqVeteran8888's video entitled "Underwood Ammo .458 SOCOM").
@@rickterrance4981 I don't agree with that. That's like saying being hit with a baseball bat has no real damage on your body because it was too slow and only temporary damage.
It's still going to cause busted blood vessels and hemorrhages and damage.
@@rickterrance4981 THANK YOU! These are just making little micro "permanent stretch cavities" that, if you know how to interpret ballistics gel, are showing the left-over tears from stretching more than gel can handle; and this does not equate to damage in actual tissue - real tissue doesn't rip in half when you bend it, not like bow ballistics gel does. Gelatin is only good for showing where projectiles and objects have passed through it, it is not good for measuring stretch forces AT ALL. These rounds are tricking people by exploiting gelatins inability to stretch like real tissue
Any body ever been shot? I got shot from the side and then from behind while disarming an attacker that was trying to break into my house, I was taking my garbage out when I walked around a corner and was face to face with him. (I was shot by the get away driver) the first shot hit me in the side and wasn’t immediately incapacitating. The second hit me an inch to the right of my L1 vertebrate and the shock totally disrupted my nervous system in ways I didn’t know was possible. My legs buckled and my nerves went completely haywire for a second. They ran to their car and I got up and went inside to call a wambulance.
I carry both. In my primary Glock 26, I have the 65 grain + P Xtreme Defender. One of my backup mags. I have the 90 grain. Plus P plus love both the penetration and the velocity
I have hst and also +p 68 for my carry. Hst because it shows bigger initial wounds. Underwood for everything else plus its known for tumbling a few times on slow mo.
Put them through glass, steel, or wooden barrier, and check your results. Underwood will excel.
I'm going to. Already got the video planned.
Absolutely! Underwood will amaze and Define logic.
Most of the ballistics I seen it was consistent all the time regardless of what it was penetrating. Which makes it far superior in my book.
As someone with a background in physics I feel compelled to point out that these bullets would not damage ACTUAL tissue beyond the bullet's diameter, the laws physics confirm this...
Firstly lets think about hollow points and their expansion. The more energy they dump into the target, by the law of the conservation of energy/momentum, the more force it is applying to the target, and as a result, this loss of energy slows the bullet as the bullet itself damages more tissue.
So, if we assumed the mechanism of damage in the bullets works, that resistance-force, redirected as
4 focused perpendicular-vectors, can actually tear/cut gel, and that they are not just stretching gelatin beyond gelatin's extremely low elastic limit (aka tearing point), then an EXPLANATION as to why the bullet isn't slowing-down when doing so is needed. It should he slowing down if it is actually imparting damaging force to the tissue, and the gel is not stretching too much. if perpendicular vectors were damaging the tissue, and again not just stretching it beyond gelatin's extremely low elastic limit*, the bullet would slow down like any hollowpoints does when damag9ng additional tissue. It would have to expend tremendous energy as some kind of unknown terminal ballistics wounding mechanism, such as theorized "jets" of gelatin/tissue/fluid that people say this bullet uses. But if it did that, the amount of energy it would take to creates "jets", or some other mechanism, that is strong enough to CUT FLESH would SLOW the bullet tremendously just as any energy conversion does. If it was cutting tissue, with whatever mechanism the perpendicular vectors are using, it would DECELERATE the bullet tremendously, just as normal resistance in wounding does... this is undeniable physics!
The fact this bullet doesn't slow down when producing, what assume to be, tissue damage is evidence that is creating those tears via exploiting the poor elasticity of ballistics gelatin, a material weakness that actual flesh does not have.
*About gelatins low elasticity and tensile strength:
If you bend block a block of ballistics gel in half, it will tear almost or entirely in half. If you bend or stretch animal tissue in the same ways you will get zero tears.
The medium, ballistics gel, was not to test stretching forces created by fluting on the bullet face like these have. Its merely meant to show damage of a physical object has past through a section of it... that's why we know with rifle rounds tested in gelatin you don't count the "permanent stretch cavity" as actual wounding, because though it tore the gel, such stretching doesn’t tear flesh. The xtreme penetrators & defenders are creating small overly stretched focal point in the gelatin that leave marks similar to hollowpoints was their flattened sections pass through the gel.
If you took engineering physics (especially if you took a curriculum on thermodynamics), you should understand that if this round was imparting enough force to damage the tissue BEYOND THE DIAMETER OF THE BULLET ITSELF (and just gelatin being gelatin and tearing when it stretches) the bullet not would penetration in the same manner a a FMJ / Ball round.
If it was imparting enough force to damage tissue beyond its diameter, it would be the laws of physics, DECELERATE as it expends energy damaging the simulated tissue.
Instead you are seeing gelatin stretch due to the shape of the bullet converted head-on resistant forces perpendicular vertical vertices of force expelled at the and of the channels/recesses formed between the screw-driver like blades. And even if you assume this mechanism works, you have to admit the tissue has the ability to stretch without ripping like gelatin... so AT MOST the bullet would create a temporary stretch cavity the length bullet path, bit focused in four perpendicular vertices of forces instead of an equal force in all directions due to the fluking on the bullet. Again stretch cavities do not damage real tissue and if they can, they will slow the bullet by the laws of physics.
@@testing2741 apparently you need to watch more ballistics tests with this round including tests with meat targets.
Many of the tests show without a doubt that there's damage beyond the diameter of the projectile.
Most physics are undeniable and proven but physics still require proper calculation and all the factors to be considered.
For instance you failed to consider the amount of energy it takes to bend the metal projectile into it's classic mushroom/flower expanded shape. That is a tremendous amount of energy that has little to do with tissue damage. That energy is divided into two parts. The resistance of the tissue that it takes to bend those ears back and the resistance of the metal as it is bending back. Then it's a larger diameter and also has cutting properties.
There is also I thing called trauma.
The temporary stretch may not do permanent damage in your opinion to tissue but blood vessels are also tissue and they most certainly sustain permanent trauma damage from a projectile of this type beyond the diameter of the projectile.
If you don't believe that, 1: you need to watch more videos on the ballistics projectiles of this type.
2: you have to apply your physics to the military use of the 556 round which is no larger in diameter than a 22 cal.
There have been billions of rounds fired of 556 that prove that hydrostatic shock is real and produces more damage than just the diameter of the projectile.
You need to go back to your calculator and do some figuring because you're missing something in your calculations.
@SilentDiablo exactly! Using the logic of "testing2741": a bowling ball will never be able to make a complete strike it will only knock down the 123 pins.
I think he needs a refund on his Physics degree.
I'm not sure why some people call these a gimmick. No way to really know how they would perform in a living mammal without autopsy, but at the very least they would do as well as a traditional HP (wound channel) They don't over penetrate, so they are dumping their energy and the reduced recoil helps with shot placement. With a handgun, shot placement and deep penetration will stop the threat IMO. 1-2 inches of over penetration in gel is no big deal.
The government actually tested these on beef and found out that their performance was vastly superior to every other round. drive.google.com/file/d/1Z6gdk_JdqKkYlUHqABWwb8Bh8dK2rHqo/view
I carry a 3.7" barrel and the Xtreme Defender ammo. With this shorter barrel it does not over penetrate, while still penetrating plenty enough. The XD is barrier blind, which gives it an advantage over the Gold Dot. I would carry the Gold Dot in warmer months (I plan to) but I ONLY carry the Xtreme Defender in the cold months when people are wearing layers or thick, heavy coats and jackets. A typical hollow point often times clogs and acts like a FMJ round and over penetrates in this circumstance. The XD will not over penetrate while still slicing through whatever it needs to get through.
I've compared the two in a simulated FBI barrier test. The Xtreme Defender is the one I said won but the gold dot didn't do bad
@@TheKalkara131 - That's consistent with what I've seen for Gold Dot barrier tests. No, not "as good" as the XD, but not far behind, and certainly acceptable.
However, by pure laws of physics, with the XD being solid copper that does not rely on deformation in order to do it's job (maximum damage while not sacrificing penetration) it is understandable why the XD performs slightly better than the deformation reliant Gold Dot. I will be carrying the Gold Dot this summer as I am going to be shooting out my XD rounds that I've been carrying for almost 3 years. When cold weather comes again I will be buying more of the XD, but switching back to Gold Dot when it gets warm again.
Who’s saying bad things about Underwood? I thought people generally liked their ammo. I’ve shot LOTS of their Ammo in many different calibers with nothing but positive experiences. It’s solid ammo. Like any ammo maker you can have a Lot that’s lower than advertised FPS. Their prices have gotten crappy lately. They’re never likely to go back down either, which sucks. I still have a lot of fun shooting their ammo in .380acp, 9mm, .357sig, .357 Mag, 10mm & .44mag. Oh well.
You gave your opinion before viewing the slow motion? I have both and I prefer the underwood for where I live.
I record the videos mostly at one time. Even if I looked at the slomo on my phone, it's a lot less telling on a 6" screen than a 27".
I finally test-fired these from my Beretta 92 Compact with a 14 lb spring and new shockbuff. They kick more than Underwood's 124 grain +P Speer gold dots which I thought were reasonably stout rounds. The ballistic crack in the range was way more noticeable as well with the 90 grain +p+. Dark orange flash as seen at a well lit shooting range.
I just bought some for my 92 also. I got over exited and also order 2200 more rounds in +p
Eyy 92c carry gang the rounds just have a built in flash bang. If you want to have fun run the 150gr hst micro out of the 92c. Didn’t have any issue cycling and felt like I was shooting a 32
Synthetic clear gel has a slightly different consistency than organic ballistic gel, so clear gel shows deeper penetration than brown gel would. I've read 20-30% variance. Split the difference and call it 25% discrepancy. Reduce 19.25 in to 14.5 in brown gel.
This would be absolutely correct and all the more reason to use this ammo, 100% barrier blind and 100% fail proof to preform
I'm curious as to why there is such a large discrepancy between this gel and the Knox 10% gel used by Guns&Cars ua-cam.com/video/76TNHmoW1eM/v-deo.html when testing the Xtreme Defender 68gr+P and 90gr. Guns&Cars says that the largest point of PWC was ~2.25"+ wide.
Good stuff, thank you. I use the Underwood +P in my SW Shield 3.1" barrel its supposed to be barrier blind for wood ,clothing and metal also. I do know it stopped my attacker with 1 shot and dropped him in his tracks never moved until Police arrived and lived.
Good stuff ill never trust anything else in my Shield. I use HST 124g +p in my Glock 17 4.5" barrel for home defence.
That's awesome to hear! It's a shame that you had to use it, but I'm glad it worked for you. I did a video simulating the FBI Barrier Test using the Underwood and a Gold Dot. Suffice to say, the Underwood was pretty damn good through most barriers
Phil. I’m soo grateful you were able to get out of that situation and let us know your experience with the Underwood in a real life situation. Out of your Shield, we’re you using the 68 or 90 grain +P?
I really believe this would be great for short barrel guns!!
I live here in alaska and for a 9mm this round is devastating!!!!🤯 it actually kept up with a 10mm hard cast fmj regular loads on penetration and some people took down 1000 lb. Brown Bears with the 9mm...I love these rounds💯
Try telling fudds about how 9mm is more than capable of taking bear and prepare for a shitshow.
You can try and explain how bigger caliber handguns are harder to shoot (from the 1st shot to successive shots) and keep on target, but it's just a waste of time.
@@calcosPR yeah they're capable with the right ammo and some well placed shots but seeing how large they get late fall I'd still prefer a 10mm or 454, Alaska has some of the deadliest animals and can't ever underestimate em or get over confident with just a 9mm, I've seen some take a shot with the .338 n still charge, I'm just saying the Underwood ammo a better chance of small calibers being a more effective defense roumd
@@calcosPR yeah they're capable with the right ammo and some well placed shots but seeing how large they get late fall I'd still prefer a 10mm or 454, Alaska has some of the deadliest animals and can't ever underestimate em or get over confident with just a 9mm, I've seen some take a shot with the .338 n still charge, I'm just saying the Underwood ammo a better chance of small calibers being a more effective defense roumd
@@calcosPR yeah they're capable with the right ammo and some well placed shots but seeing how large they get late fall I'd still prefer a 10mm or 454, Alaska has some of the deadliest animals and can't ever underestimate em or get over confident with just a 9mm, I've seen some take a shot with the .338 n still charge, I'm just saying the Underwood ammo a better chance of small calibers being a more effective defense round
I think that was their penetrator. These are a little different. One of the videos I watched the guy said the brown bear they had heard of, it was 8 shots of the 9mm penetrators and the autopsy couldn't determine which shot was the killing shot.
Everyone talks about the Gold Dot but that Underwood is my go to defense round. It’s absolutely devastating and I haven’t seen anything perform better. The reason you buy the extreme defender is because it’s near barrier blind and doesn’t need to use the projectile to expand in. Car Windshield, dry wall, etc could be a factor in a self defense situation. Underwood for the win!!!
That's it, barrier blind for penetration of obstruction or obstacles in overcoming the potential bad guy and likewise bear 🐻 able.
@@Roboticdoughbull3k for sure. Everyone always talks about over penetration but that’s a factor with any projectile unless you never miss!!! I’m also of the belief that you should know what’s beyond your target, but sometimes you have to make split second decisions. In that event surviving and protecting others is the first priority and stopping the threat ensures that. That round does everything well and doesn’t really on bullet expansion. It’s expensive but we’ll worth it. I grab it from Gorilla too.
I load these exact rounds in my shorter barrel carry guns (Hellcat, Glock 43). I load Speer or Federal HST 124 gr or 124gr +P, or Underwood Gold Dot 124gr+P+ in my longer barrel guns. I love Speer. It's also what I load my 357Sig and .45 1911 with. It's just physics. Hollow points have inconsistent expansion and penetration in shorter barrels. You did this test with a G17. A test with 3in barrels would've been different. Thanks for the video!
How does the +p+ underwood do in your hellcat? Any issues? Recoil? I’m considering buying some for mine. I’ve ordered a stronger guide rod/spring in preparation.
This is why I use Underwood 90g +P. Did y'all see how that gell block opened up❓😳
The 45acp with 3 inch barrel would make good use of this design
.45 super in a 5” barrel makes even better use of it. @1,700 FPS the extra large flutes do bizarrely well in gel. I wish someone would make a UA-cam quality video of it.
Thanks for the test. That Underwood seems decent
Use these in my carry 9mm and .380. After seeing the gel tests, I went with these.
I'm going to buy a few boxes of Underwood after this video, you get hollow point damage, but act like a fmj, it's a defensive round that epuld gladly go through glass if it had too, hollow points aren't that great going through glass and perpetrator. All out self defense.
The test I saw on their channel they got 18" out of a G19.
Polycase is the same concept, but with 65gr polymer/copper matrix bullet (1900pfs). Much lighter than standard for EDC.
Watched a video where the shooter swore that he had stood on a junk car and shot through the windshield withe the Underwood Ammo and didn't have any deflection of the bullets path into the target on the car seat , he tried a variety of H.P. and they all deflected and missed the target , so taking the ability to defeat barriers and still get the job done it is in a class of it's own , just bought some at 25% off sale for the 4th of July and that defeats the price objection ,it was actually cheaper than the Gold Dot !
I know this is older but I find no reason to use hot loads with this kind of ammo. I just put 68gr 90gr and 115gr standard pressure rounds thru a test myself and they all performed extremely well. Also All 3 ripped right thru 2 different well know level llla soft armor panels. Absolutely insane rounds with a lot of energy dump in the first 12” !
There is a chance that ANY Hollow Point will clog and act more like ball ammo. No expansion, no sizable wound channel, just a straight path through the medium and over penetration. The Underwood is designed not to expand but do excellent penetration and devastating damage without even a question of clogging up and under performing. The only reason I am watching this video is to see more Underwood ammo in action. Go back and watch the slo-mo of the Underwood. That was impressive. The Gold Dot also looked good but only if it never clogs with clothing, sheet rock, plywood, car door, etc.
Check out the FBI test I did of these two. Underwood did better I think, but both were impressive.
How’s the recoil? I’m buying for 3.5 barrel
awesome editing.
Thank you for slowing down the shots!
Underwood is the best round currently available. The tried and true, and still more than adequate, but they are not it’s equal. Thanks for the video
I have a little stock of personal defense 9mm ammo and I just got a 20 round box of the underwood rounds you go over in this video (90 grain) and a 20 round box of Speer Gold dots. I had about 45 rounds of Federal HST, 50 IMI, and about 15 Hornady critical defense or american gunner I can't remember which. But what I carry in the actual mags in both my 9mm (and I know they say not to do this) is 3 to 5 underwood, then 3 to 5 gold dots, then in my compact (not subcompact) I top it off with the HST's. Since they say most civilian encounters where shots are actually fired are resolved with 2 or 3 shots, it kinda goes without saying the logic how I have my mags loaded. Thanks for the upload! Subbed, and look forward to more content!
What is over penetration? I'm not LE so in self defense if the round pass through the threat it might be a problem. VA has a ban of use of other then lead core so no solid anything else copper, steel. Nice test!
If your state bans anything not lead core, I'd stick with tried and true hollow points. Speer gold dot or Federal HST. Overpenetration is if you hit your target, your bullet may continue onwards through them. Can it happen? Yes, however, in my opinion, people worry about it more than they should. Look around you. As a general rule, there's a whole lot more empty space than human bodies around you at any given time. I have some videos testing overpenetration also
@@TheKalkara131 Thank you
I carry the Lehigh in my 19 never had to depend on them but I have 100% confidence that if I ever have to depend on them that I won’t be disappointed
I'd agree. As soon as I can find them in stock again, I'm going to do some barrier tests on them also.
Wonder how much difference thicker material would make? Like leather, wool or a thick foil?
From what I've seen coming from other guntubers, the xtreme defender generally ignores everything up to, and including light barriers such as dry wall, wood, and sheet metal with consistent terminal effects (penetration/cavity) to the target as if they were naked.
Meanwhile, hollowpoints generally had the negative habit of getting their cavity clogged, preventing proper expansion after passing through a material at least as dense as wood, causing minimal wound cavity width/possible overpenetration.
Military arms channel did this test. The xtreme defender, like full metal jacket rounds, is effectively a barrier-blind round with comparable/superior terminal ballistics to hollowpoints used against a naked target. Also, according to military arms channel, the 90grain +P+ load seems to have enough velocity behind it to at least beat 2A body armor.
The round overall seems to be absurdly good to the point I think the only other 9mm bullet worth considering for possible niche use in self defense would be 50 grain liberty civil defense for being slightly more effective VS soft armor such as 3A due to its velocity.
Have you tried the 68 grain extreme penetrator 9mm ? It moves at almost 2000 FPS! One hell of a 9mm round.
I have not. Pretty sure I have a slomo video of a 115gr zipping straight through two blocks of ballistics gel, didn't know they made a 68gr.
Not so much the clothing clogging up the hollow point as what happens to a hollow point when it hits a hard surface such bone wood glass metal. Etc it will either deform the hollow point or plug it.
I'm planning a follow up to this video, testing the two rounds against barriers. Just have to build and source the materials and find more of the ammo in stock.
@@TheKalkara131
Military arms channel sorta beat you to the punch there, but I would be interested in seeing the 90grain +P+ xtreme defender go head to head against the 50 grain liberty civil defense on 2A and 3A soft body armor, and barriers with ballistic gel behind it.
MAC sorta established the xtreme defender put almost every popular hollowpoint to shame in consistency through barriers.
ua-cam.com/video/0piGeTVMZWs/v-deo.html
Would be more interesting to see something more niche such as the liberty civil defense go up against it with it's abnormally low weight, high velocity, and potential to punch through 3A body armor.
Outside of that, the xtreme defender in +P, and +P+ seem to be THE rounds to have.
@@mghegotagun I'll add the Liberty to what I want to test, but it's the same issue as the Underwood, finding it in stock somewhere for not $2 a round.
Earlier HPs presented the risk of clogging with fabric and never expanding. In order to facilitate more reliable expansion, the front end of HP bullets began to be constructed weaker and weaker, like the crumple zones of modern automobiles. But this made them vulnerable to hard barriers, which could just as easily crumple hollow point structures inwardly as they triggered expansion. So some modern JHPs seek to strengthen and reinforce their noses once again, in hopes of finding a happy medium.
But these bypass all that by being constructed of a solid hardened material while still achieving an expansion effect without the projectile having to expand, itself.
.45 super in a 5” barrel @1,700 FPS the extra large flutes do bizarrely well in gel. I wish someone would make a UA-cam quality video of it.
Alaskan Ballistics has a few 45 Super videos. He has a few 45 Super vs 10mm as well.
@@357Franknitty I know, but no extreme defender 45super on the youtube. Gel, body armor ect
@@zackzittel7683 Yea I'd be interested in body armor myself. Especially the Liberty Civil Defense and the Fort Scott Munitions. All of thier 9mm and 10mm go through body armor and I'm really eager to see what the 45acp's can do.
Yep- I rock the Underwood in .45 SUPER. - 120 gr Extreme Defender @1600Fps./700ft/lbs. It's remarkable. It works. Looks a .308 in gel.
@@johndoe-td2xd I get 1800-1830 in a 5”
What was the velocity of the two?
There are some evil bastards doing things in body armor lately. I like the barrier blindness of the underwood. They also have a 68 grain and velocity beats armor
Knowing this is a 3+ year old video, I believe those are the old style of XD, and it would be cool to see you revisit this test with the newer version of XD +P+ vs SGD to see if Lehigh have dialed back the penetration and increased the permanent wound channel.
I can look into it, no promises if or when I'll get to it. I didn't even know they redid the bullet type.
Price went up on them too ( of course)
Cheapest Underwood right now is $1.17 + shipping!
Put the gold dot through real barriers, not cloth. In real situations with denim, drywall, glass or sheet metal the Underwood is beyond better. The gold dot and most other jhp are not barrier blind.
Already planning on it. I'll reserve my opinions until after I do my further tests.
I expect that Underwood extreme defender would perform equally in summer and winter, when clothing becomes a factor with JHP.
Check out the FBI Barrier Test I did for this
A good test I would love to see someone perform would be like a definitive 9mm defense round. Like a standard fbi testing with denim and ballistic gel. Maybe get like 5-10 of the supposed best defensive rounds and see which does the best. Maybe even get some watermelons to see another medium for expansion tests.
Well, I've done a couple FBI barrier penetration tests, and one of the stages includes cloth material.
Could someone help me can I run these in my Glock 19x and 26. Glock said they don’t recommend it and friends have said it will blow my gun up. Please help.
The issue is that technically there's no standard for +P+ ammunition, so different companies can load them to different pressures. You'd be taking a risk, but your Glocks could probably run them just fine. I've shot them through my G45. If you're really worried about it, just run the +P version.
Really similar to Black hills Honey badger
Last thing I'm going to add great test, but this is why I stopped caring hollow-points. You never know the angle or the shot that you're going to get there for clothing effects that much for in and penetration. You don't know what bones going to do or if you got to go through a door. You cannot predict that penetration at least with the Xtreme Defender you are going to get the same kind of tration with not as much resistance against clothing bone Metals Etc. Have a good night everybody.
So what do you carry instead of hollow-points? FMJ? Frangibles?
Lehigh defense Underwood Xtreme Defender 90 grain and 68 grain the solid copper
Hey you.
@@flintrocks Everyone else but you understood by implication that he was now carrying Underwood bullets. 🤡
Before commenting on "alleged velocity", you should chronograph it. I get 10fps over stated velocity out of my Glock 17.
This guy is a TALKER. Fast forward to 7:30.
Since when is a dollar around expensive for defensive ammo?
I seem to remember defensive ammo always running over a dollar a bullet even before the shortage. At least any of the good stuff was.
50 cents, you where buying wrong
@@mblake0420 seems to me that defensive ammo was often selling for about 20 or $25 for a box of 20 or 25.
I will have to dig up receipts I guess because I bought some Underwood Xtreme Defender before the ammo crisis and during the crisis and it was the same price.
And now it is up a couple bucks a box but everything is up right now due to inflation.
Thanks Joe😡
@@steveh7108 you buy by the 50 for 30 bucks
@@mblake0420 come on now you know as well as I do a lot of the higher-end defensive ammo only sells in 20 and 25 round boxes.
I know you could get it in 50-round boxes of some Brands but a lot of it does not sell that way. Usually it's only the cheaper stuff that sells 50 rounds self defense ammo.
@@steveh7108 hst, gold dot everything else is a gimmick or over priced
When u doing video of 45 Xtreme penetrator or Defender?
As soon as I get a 45 ACP handgun that isn't a Hi Point haha
@@TheKalkara131 ok.
Good head to head test,ED took it.
Are these the ones with the gold primer or chrome colored?
Wth?
Nice test how you make the gel test kit
It's from Clear Ballistics
The defence round can penetrate 3a body Kevlar.
11:36 I prefer Underwood Xtreme Defender because it's reloadable/reusable.
Nice I have these in 45 but the Xtreme penetrator
I stick with the underwood, because once you start going through thicker barriers, especially sheet metal(or a material that can cup the top of the round), nearly all tests I've seen result in significant over penetration...like through 2 gel blocks and 1-3 gallons of water. So we are looking at well over 30in of penetration. Even real thick clothing or wood (sometimes) can cause this dramatic over penetration. All the test I have seen with the xtreme defender 90gr, 90gr+p, 90gr+p+ and the 65gr +p+ are totally barrier blind and penetrate between 15-20 inches. If your adversary has up to level IIIa, not 3a ceramic or arSteel, the 2 underwood +p+ will penetrate up to and including IIIa armor. Anyway good first couple of vids, keep it up. You might want to switch over to Parler and Rumbler so you won't be sensored by the bots and snowflakes determining monetization. 👍👍
I think you are confusing the Penetrator with the Extreme Defender.
What's your source on the 90grain +P+ Xtreme Defender beating 3A soft armor? If that's the case, that makes even 50grain liberty civil defense look redundant.
@@JohnLloydScharf No sir, he is correct. The penetrators are clearing 30" of gel and even more.
Do a 9 major test
Edit: Good review bub.
I can't find underwood ammo anywhere. I mean I have about 350 rounds.. Every day I check the website with no luck.
midwayusa 20$ for 20 rounds right now just ordered 60 rounds
Lookout Now: they are in stock now
Lol the balloon it made and just deflated all that gas out with the underwood defender
Can anyone tell me how to distinguish the +P from the +P+ round when out of the box? I could find no markings. TIA.
Bottom of the bullet
@@zeeg928 I believe you, but would need an electron microscope to read it.
@@thomasjohnson6808 wish I could send a pic of what im lookin at
@@zeeg928 I see the markings, but cannot read them. I color coded the whole box by using a red Sharpie for +P+ and blue for +P. That - or I could shoot myself in the hand with both and see which one stings more...
@@thomasjohnson6808 right after ther R in luger .. But good Idea 🤣🤣
Extreme Defender is +P 90 grain 1475 ft per second I think extreme penetrator is the +P+ ammo
Underwood makes both penetrator and defender in +p+.
@@TheKalkara131 yes the penetrator is the +P+ the defender is a +P
go to their website they literally +P+ Xtreme Defenders just bought some.
@@SoWavvyy just bought some yesterday to refresh our carry pistols, +P+ these things are pricey.
@@USMCPFC1 Cheaper than Buffalo bore’s awful shipping price
The clear gel isn’t as precise at the knox gel! Take 1 to 2 inches off of the penetration in clear gel.
Barriers , people are not just made up of squishy sof to gel , they have bones , also, you're not guaranteed.The shot.You're going to be able to take what if it's to a windshield.What if it's through a door car door medal , you know
@@frankmarks5890 I've done a simulated fbi barrier test with this load
While not the brightest bulb in the pack, Kalkara131 spends 10 minutes trashing the XD design before starting the test, then looks for reasons to discredit it’s excellent performance. Bottom line the XD’s are barrier blind and perform 100% of the time vs a 25-30% failure rate of hollow points.
Dude, I'm just an old incandescent, I can't hold a candle to you. I truly aspire to be as bright as angrysheepdog9744, with his illustrious, well thought out, and in depth content. Surely he has a few hundred thousand followers.
I do tend to ramble, and this was one of my earliest videos, admittedly. Since this, I've done several videos on the Xtreme Defender and demonstrated that it works very well. It's what I personally carry.
@@TheKalkara131 What can I say your wattage has definitely increased Kakara131, there's hope for you yet. Just saw your 68gr video. Not a big fan of that weight either due to it's instability...maybe at SBR rifle speeds in 357SIG it makes sense. Can't go wrong with 90gr XD in 9mm / 90gr XP .380 for pocket carry. More +'s the better.
I have this in +p I haven't shot it yet
Underwood uses a glock 19 for their velocity tests in 9mm
The LeHigh performed superior to the Gold Dot. You just won’t say it do I will. The Underwood destroyed that gel block.
WHY ARE YOU SHOOTING UNDERWOOD IN THIS DROUGHT. That is basically gold right now..
7:15 if your here to see a test and not hear dude ramble and ramble.on
There's already timestamps but thanks
$1/round that is cheap! Sure miss the Good Ole days pre-Biden!
The Defender round will out-perform the Gold Dot in a windshield test into gel, and probably every other kind of barrier that is solid like drywall, wood, etc.
A good strategy would be to leverage Gold Dots as your first couple rounds, then use the Underwood for the rest.
best ammo, I couldn't find it for less than 2 dollars a round.
Use ammoseek.com
I got shot in the head by a 9mm hollow point and still here. This round might have had more impact on me.
Shit, you're a lucky man. Did the round glance off your skull or something?
@@TheKalkara131 it fully expanded but just didn't do the job
Play the lotto🙏😂
Lol badass
I'm so glad your alright and we'll enough to talk about it, and I agree. My 9mm's would see nothing but HST's or Hydra Shocks for the expansion pedals or even better the +p+ rounds to really make 9mm have a good impact on the intended target.
It's barrier blind and it acts like a boat propeller in soft tissue.
Dude you’re using plus P plus what do you expect
7:15. 10:05
Excited for my box to get here brosef 😅
Check out my short MK2 review 👊🏼
Most gun manufacturers do not recommend you use +P+ !!! Will void warrantys
That’s one way to clear the weapon lol
Alright it's bugging me, I don't remember this video much at all. What do you mean??
@@TheKalkara131 dry firing down the table haha. Not judging I just thought it was funny. Everyone has their own ways
I hate brass. Rather have nickel or aluminum
So... Sort of like a giant overpressured, overpriced CNC machined copper screwdriver bit round that pretends not to be a light for caliber FMJ?
28.50 now lmao
Throw a jacket etc. or a fatty in front of the the gold dot and see what you get. Lehigh for me all the way.
As soon as I can find more +P+ Lehigh in stock, I'm going to compare these two against the barriers used in the FBI ammo tests.
@@TheKalkara131
Roger that!
This video could be 10 minutes shorter if you wouldn't keep repeating the same information. Try just saying it once.
Oh I'm sorry, would you like a refund?
Buh-bye Harry. You've been voted off the island.
Harry is a 🤡
@@TheKalkara131 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
This dude annoys me.
Oh yeah? Well you annoy me too Humphry. Whiney, bitchy, no content having ass. If you don't like my videos, there's this foreign concept you can embrace: don't watch
Good test. But you really ought to move ammo boxes off table and line of fire first.
these were made for revolvers and that is why most semi auto cant handle it...that is why they say dont feed it a steady diet of it 😁
7:15. 10:05