@@DarkApostleNoek Counter-insurgency logistics, but in a way, yes. The Tarkin doctrine was asenine. The Empire spent so much time scaring civilians, they kinda forgot how to fight soldiers.
@Matthew Caughey PRECISELY. Here's a bit of irony. Galen Erso developed the Kyber tech that became the power source of the Death Star's superlaser believing that it was an alternative energy program. If the Empire had just gone with that instead of making a superweapon, they could have created billions of jobs and made money rather than wasting it. They could have starved the rebellion of new recruits this way. People also often use cost as an excuse for these substandard TIE variants, but considering the heavy losses, anything effective that cost less than 100 TIE-LNs would have been a wise investment. After all, the starfighter itself was not the only thing that cost money in that equation. They also had to recruit, train, and equip pilots which that costs money a lot of money. The 1st generation of TIE pilots were incredibly skilled and they were wasted on inferior starfighters. In summation, the only 2 things the Imperial military industrial complex did efficiently were incurring unnecessary cost and making enemies where enemies needed not be made.
While that would've worked, to play devils advocate, the Vendators were a symbol of the old Republic and Tie Defenders had the disadvantage of being easy to abscond with, being single seat with a hyperdrive - although they could've made two variants, a standard one without a hyperdrive and even more speed/armour/ordinance in place of the hyperdrive, that would also cost less. And the Thrawn model (with hyperdrive) for proven loyalist to be used with hunter killer teams. But just switching half the production of ISD's to light cruisers would also have worked. Each remaining ISD is assigned a support fleet of between 2 - 8 Arqitens (depending on threat level) to act as _screens for hyperdrive snubfighters,_ and that still leaves a lot to do routine patrols.
@@casbot71 The TIE-Defender had a remote killswitch and the first generation of Imperial TIE pilots was fiercely loyal to the Galactic Empire. That being said, I agree that a local system TIE-Defender variant would have its uses for the greater sub-light speed and loyalty screening purposes you mentioned, but they would also be useful for training and local system security patrol purposes. The Venators(altered to Imperial grey and black) would provide an excellent staging platform for the Short range TIE-Defender variant thus serving as a symbol of order. I also agree with redirecting half of the ISD budget for Arquitens-Class cruisers as they are very efficient. The Proper TIE-Defenders would of course be piloted exclusively by the best of the best and assigned exclusively to Rebel hunting squadrons within battle groups consisting of 1 Venator for maintainence/logistical support, 1 ISD altered to function exclusively as a battleship for anti capital ship engagements, 1 interdictor cruiser to counter hit-and-run tactics, and 4 Arquitens-Class cruisers for anti Starfighter, cruiser, corvette, etc. screening. On an unrelated note, I love the word "abscond". I so rarely get a chance to use it in conversation.😁👍
Same here, I like it and the Gozanti, mainly because they're not simply just redesigned Star Destroyers. I also like them because it shows that the Empire's navy is comprised of more than just Star Destroyers. I wonder, if Lucas had more money when he made the original Star Wars, would he have included more ship types accompanying them or would he still have stuck to just showing us SDs?
Isaac Kim the gap in the front can hold a few ties of various designs but some common issue I see a lot is that there is a a hangar in the ship. Look at it in rebels there is no space big enough for ties to go in that isn’t used for something else
Grand Admiral Thrawn is the one being who could have save the entire Galactic Empire; having all of the greatest weapons in the galaxy doesn't matter if you have a tyrannical bully (Vader), a megalomaniac (Krennic), a sociopath (Tarkin) or a combination of the three (Palpatine) as the leading figure. Edit: What I meant was Thrawn doesn't have fits of bloodlust and/or psychosis; the Thrawn Trilogy noted that Thrawn had a much cooler head than Palpatine and Vader.
Except Palpatine is a genius mastermind, Vader is a wunderkind in battle, and Tarkin is good for keeping the politicians and generals in line. Thrawn is a good war commander like Vader, but he's got no chops for politics. If he had, he could have just injured the New Republic enough to force them into a truce against the Vong, and he could have lived. He was also not smart enough to realize that his assassins' true loyalty was to Vader, not him, and two of Vader's kids serve the other side and would happily turn the Nohgri against him.
@@HolyknightVader999 You confuse tactical genius with being Marry Sue. Problem of the Empire was that it didn't use best people for the job, because tyrant always need to be on the top. Rule "mediocre but loyal" is main disadvantage of most totalitarian dictatorships. Thrawn did get pass exactly because he wasn't interested in politic, but stoping Vongs (and also one of few people who know how to fight them). And it also doesn't change fact that he was absolutely correct regard weakens of Empire's tactic, but it wasn't his problem in long run.
yeah, although it seems he has a larger variant given that an Imperial shuttle can fit inside the front prongs. Still a much more practical flagship for a Moff with limited fueling capabilities than an Imperial-I/II Star Destroyer.
@@farawaygaming_ I mean I'm basing part of my statement on the video this channel just released on Mandalorian ship sizes, and remember, Gideon's ship is called a different class, 456-class IIRC.
With the sudden leap in *planet killing* weapons technology in TROS the issue has been solved. There will be a steady decrease in the _number of inhabited planets._
They already had a fighter sized craft that could go a step above that and blow up entire star systems, as well as missiles that could disintegrate entire planets in legends, so it isn't as silly as it sounds. It was called the sun crusher and was also made of indestructible metal that could take a turbolaser strike without damage.
@@DeathBYDesign666 Why you think that Disney haters has any actual knowledge about Star Wars? I never did see such blind mob in my life and I survived Evangelion fandom 0_0
Ideally I would use the light cruisers with venators acting as a flagship/carrier and instead of regular cheap tie fighters use thrawns tie defenders with a mix of V wings
@@Euripides_Panz Chuck in a Victory at a central location for call-in backup/support and you're good. If there's something out there strong enough to kill a Vic, you're already deep enough in Poodoo an ISD wouldn't cut it.
Same here. It looks mean and menacing while still being far more practical than something like an ISD. Heck, even the Harrower class Dreadnought from the Old Republic days is a better-formatted battlecruiser than the ISD, with its generous hanger bays, several fighter squadrons, a dedicated bomber squadron, heavy guns to deal with other capital ships, and dozens of quad laser turrets for point defense/anti-starfighter use. I would take a scaled-up and modernized Harrower over and ISD any day.
@@TechnoMinarchist And why they should operate as Venator on the first place? ISD was evolution of Venator concept, what was flawed in the principle. Having more TIE's wouldn't solve anything, especially if we speak about shitty basic model. What Empire actually needed was enough ships to prevent Rebellion from forming in the unprotected systems. For that they need gigantic fleet of Arquitens (with support of Gazanti) and lighter Star Destroyers like Quasars, Gladiators and Acclamators. With only small number of Victory and ISD (and those Venators what survived) for those rare cases when something larger would pop-up. Making fleet solely from ISD's was ridiculous (alongside anything larger as ISD was already larger then almost everything in service). Also ISD was infamous from numerous flaws as rushed model. They need replace it anyway (and they did with ISD2 and Resurgent).
@@TheRezro Are you ignoring the first part of my original comment? ISDs wouldn't be used for patrols and peacekeeping. They are war machines designed for major combat events like the Battle of Endor. The ISD on its own doesn't fit the format though for an all out war scenario due to how small its fighter compliment is however, something Venators did not have a problem with.
@@TechnoMinarchist Same as you. As tell that to Empire what actually did use them primarily for projection of the power, when it actually should used as Battlecruiser (what later was the case). Also Venator was gradually armored and its fighter compartment decreased as, most fighters at the time didn't have hyperdrives, so most fights end on short range. Same tactic was used by the Empire, with ISD being superior to Venator here as it could easily destroy most capital ships. Problem was that it completely didn't work against raids (slash tactic used by the Rebellion) as enemy ships disappear before ISD could even launch its small compartment of fighters. Increasing it wouldn't help even slightly. Star Destroyers work more for offence then defense. And as for use with long range fighters why have heavy turbo-lasers then? As such why use ISD frame at all? Such large carrier should be absolutely protected by the large fleet during specific offensive operations (like carriers work IRL). From practical point of view use of dedicated escort carriers like Quasars, would do the job way better.
I think a good imperial fleet would be one ISD as a command ship then some Light imperial ships accompanying and probably a dedicated carrier to escort it and provide fighter/bomber support.
HolyknightVader999 has a solid answer. However, it's more than just that. The Emperor had lots of infiltrators in the Republic and Jedi Order, and this helped them gain valuable intel and lots of worlds. The Empire didn't just do a full-on invasion like everyone thinks. They too used treachery and struck when the time was right.
I'm pretty sure its supposed to be a world war 2 reference for the Blitzkrieg. The Empire was able to push all the way to Coruscant quickly, then they lost after the cold war period. There is a small "Cold War" after France surrenders to the germans, after the Allies hold on and regroup they win.
The Rebels , Especially the Ghost crew were Kanan Jarus ; Jedi knight Ezra bridger : Jedi Pawan knight Hera Syndulla : One of best pilots of era , daughter of Cham Syndulla aka Twilek War leader Sabine Wre. : Mandalorian , Clan Wren daughter , Imperial Weapons designer Chopper : War Criminal , Ex Y wing astromech Ghost : Modified Stealth Frieghter heavy Gunship ,light years better than even the existing Military models Imperial Arquitens : Slower than its predecessor , it's best advantage over enemies tanken away and basically a underpowered Patrol cruiser
Just switching _half the production_ of ISD's to light cruisers would have worked. The Empire then has 12500 ISD's and 475000 Arqitens light cruisers (assuming 38 Arqitens for each ISD). Each remaining ISD is assigned a support fleet of between 2 - 8 Arqitens (depending on threat level) to act as _screens for hyperdrive snubfighters,_ and that still leaves a lot of Arquitens free to do routine patrols. And those ISD's are far more effective as the light cruisers can help them patrol a system by covering the other side of a planet and boxing in ships trying to run.
1:11 "Demilitarisation in a thousand years before the Battle of Yavin (1000 BBY) meant that most *_plants_* were kinda expected to create their own local defense forces or planetary militias." No wonder why the Plantae Kingdom founded the secessionist movement that led to the Clone Wars.
Vader and Thrawn could've saved the empire. Both hated the death star and Vader was actively backing Thrawns defender program. It's also heavily suggested in the last of the new Thrawn trilogy that Vader was actually the one that created the Super Star Destroyers as a concept. I think combined these philosophies complement each other perfectly - small number of giant command ships to replace the unnecessarily large amount of star destroyers while being backed up by a fleet of highly versatile, hyperdrive equipped TIE defenders.
It seems the ideal setup of imperial navy was a modern venator providing large wings of fighters, arquitens for anti fighter, patrol and support, gazanti for light service roles, and some type of long range fighter, like TIE scout or a more cost effective TIE advanced.
The ISD and two venator core of a fleet would have been insane. Make the isd the land vehicle carrier while the venators held the starships. Sprinkle in some arquitens and some light carriers and it’s pretty scary
You forgot to mention one key issue with the light cruiser that led to a lot of them being destroyed at was those turbo lasers. There are quite a few instances where the rebels hit those magazines and the entire ship went down
The green Turbolaser is the most powerful version while the red lasers are the cheaper less powerful version. The blue lasers used by Clone Wars Era was the type that would be more effective against machines but could still be used against organics.
The ISD is still a good platform for a command ship, but I agree they needed more ships of varying roles to expand their reach to a greater degree. This showcases the problems with out of touch centralized command and bureaucrats.
Ngl the Empire should’ve used Separatist Vulture droids replaced Tie fighters since vulture droids were much more agile and were harder shoot down since they didn’t have the same comically large wings like the tie fighter did. But probably the biggest benefit the vulture had was the cost, a vulture droid costed 3X less than a single tie fighter(a vulture droid has price numbering around 20,000 Credits while the tie fighter numbered around 60,000 Credits)
The empire needed numbers as well. One ISD controlling multiple light cruisers. The empire did deploy light cruisers in some cases instead of ISD. But a fleet usually didn’t have these light cruisers only ISD.
for the empire the venator class "star destroyer" or a very similar ship would have been great, since the rebels lacked capital ships, but had a large and experienced starfighter fleet, and the best thing against fighters is a better fighter
It's strange, our move in doctrine towards carriers and subs for that matter. Planes are largely only useful against other planes, subs or other slow moving, relatively thin skinned vehicles (tanks are included, compared to battleships), and civilian targets, which you have to be the lowest form of life to consider that a viable target. They are okay at striking on surface installations, not that there are too many important ones that aren't buried in a bunker. The Graf Spree, a pocket battleship in the mid 20th Century, operating alone, occupied massive amounts of Allied resource and material, because you can't ignore a battleship. The Yamato class battleship occupied a fleet and 5 carriers worth of planes for hours before it was sunk. It was by itself, more or less, and had a crew of just about 2800 versus a carrier like the Nimitz say, which had a crew of 3500. So, not counting the surface fleet and horribly fudging the crew compliment of the actual carriers, 17,500 men to slow 2800, that's what you call effective use of resources. Because you can't ignore a battleship. Each ship has its use, some less glorious than others. Subs attack freighters, harrass shipping and may engage what few targets of opportunity exist, though largely a lot of reconnaissance and faking Doom's Day scenarios, lately. Carriers are mobile airfields, for when you can't establish a less sinkable one. Battleships are command centers, mobile (limited) artillery, ships of the line, very hard to sink with ramming them (or getting close enough to), and large enough they cannot be ignored. The oddity for me, is that we haven't intermixed them on a battle cruiser like the Kiev, where sinking one does not sink your entire air force. Or at least make smaller more defensible carriers. Maybe they Age of the Giants came to an end, but as it would happen based on things I hear, the Age of the Battleship is not quite at an end. Tarkin's reliance on fear is ineffectual. Fear only works if there is alternatives. Put simply, they will do what you ask, to the minimum effect, and only as long as their fear is greater than what they feel they have to lose. Mixed with oppression, you will have a failing state in no time. Fear ultimately only makes enemies. His doctrine relied on these floating citadels to remind everyone who is king. So, making one tumble to the ground, emboldens the dissident. The rebels only ever needed to symbolically sink one, to show the Empire's weakness, to gain a victory. I would just have another one show up and takes its place, but I can be mean. Line ships are not objects of fear, but of defense and a promise of reprisal. They represent the strength of a Navy. But they are hardly an Army or Invulnerable. They have their uses, particularly in occupying your enemies ire and resources. Because in the end, you can't ignore a battleship.
I've been looking at this problem due to being nerd sniped with a "how you you build your imperial fleet using canon prices" and I've come to a similar conclusion. The Tarkin Doctrine was dumb, and really should have been seen for its flaws early on. I do feel a monolitic force is ill advised, even one built around the Arquitens, as awesome as it is. Another thing worth noting is that an Arquitens is 25x the price of a Gozanti, which by itself is enough to keep the peace on a backwater, but certainly would need reinforcement for anything more plot focused. Also if you're purchasing say 100,000 or 1,000,000 cruisers, you probably get to make whatever modifications you need from the beginning rather than having to do them as aftermarket kits, which could significantly increase their sturdiness and firepower. After all until recently, Lockheed Martin has done similar for individual nations purchasing F-16s IRL, and those were for purchases in the dozens or hundreds rather than thousands or millions. A mixed force of capitol ships with smaller cruisers, and with even smaller military upscaled cruisers and patrol vessels probably would be the best in my opinion. Even better if those capitol ships strongly include Venators with a good fighter complement (Say, TIE/ag, TIE/d and TIE/ph focused where possible, as an analogue to the real world F-16, F-15 and F-22)
Agreed, the Arquitens makes so much sense and I like the way it launches it's fighers. Though as a fan of the Gozanti I have to say ... fair points about it's shortcomings. It can only do it's best.
I would assume the ISDs were favored over the Light cruisers due to the fact that ISD's aren't just capital ships, they're mobile Imperial command bases. Each ISD houses essentially an entire army that can subjugate, and police a system. It could house, supply, and re purpose large amounts of starfighters in a relatively short time as opposed to Gozanti's which were super mini carriers. Arquitens were very effective at patrolling and policing obscure, unimportant systems while ISD's made the rounds over rebellious or relatively lawless systems. I think the Empire was just really in need of more Corvette-like ships in their fleet, with a few support ships like the Arquitens to deal with smaller vessels like Blockade runners.
@@thebighurt2495 Well the Empire can't be everywhere at once, so they would have to sacrifice numbers to provide security to as many systems as possible. You get the bang with your buck with an ISD, which housed an entire imperial garrison to occupy a planet. But ISDs were far from useless, they would have been utilized in countless insurrections and ground invasions, with the Battle of Hoth, Mimban, Jedha, as a few examples. Warfare isn't entirely limited by space, so an ISD could theoretically occupy a planet, whereas small cruisers would not with their small troop capacity. This is why as more important planets become, more ISDs are stationed over the planet. The rebellion wasn't afraid of taking on ISD's either, the battle of Scarrif proved that. The real problem is that the Destroyers themselves had awful ship to fighter capabilites, and were overwhelmed easily by the rebel Trench run defense tactic. I think more corvettes would be a more sound instead of mass produced ISD's.
@@GimmieTheJimmie "Well the Empire can't be everywhere at once, so they would have to sacrifice numbers to provide security to as many systems as possible" Yes and it is exactly why ISD in that role is dumb idea 0_0 "You get the bang with your buck with an ISD, which housed an entire imperial garrison to occupy a planet" So why not place that garrison ON the planet 0_0 "But ISDs were far from useless, they would have been utilized in countless insurrections and ground invasions, with the Battle of Hoth, Mimban, Jedha, as a few examples" And strawman is made form straw 0_0 "Warfare isn't entirely limited by space, so an ISD could theoretically occupy a planet, whereas small cruisers would not with their small troop capacity" Except it couldn't do few dozens Arquitans could 0_0 "This is why as more important planets become, more ISDs are stationed over the planet" No shit. Not the point 0_0 "The rebellion wasn't afraid of taking on ISD's either, the battle of Scarrif proved that" Yes, because it was shit in that role. Problem is that in most cases they simply didn't need to on the first place. "I think more corvettes would be a more sound instead of mass produced ISD's." So you disagree, but claims literally the same? What?
@@TheRezro Yes, it's possible to not fully agree with someone, sorry if this is a new concept to you. Let's go over your points: "Yes and it is exactly why ISD in that role is dumb idea" Well no. ISD's are made specifically to have the manpower to police other systems, as well as destroy said system if necessary. This isn't something a couple of Arquitens can do. "So why not place that garrison ON the planet" Because the Empire has an entire galaxy to patrol, and having mobile legions to reinforce other areas of the galaxy is pretty sound isn't it? "And strawman is made form straw" I'm not sure if you were calling that statement obvious, or you were calling it a strawman, either of which would not be true. I'm using those examples to reinforce my Idea that ISDs are the figurehead of planetary sieges and battles, each one of those battles I listed had commands and troops issued from an ISD. Again, small cruisers aren't sufficient for this role. "Except it couldn't do few dozens Arquitans could" Except it did? What? Did you not even read the quoted points? Where do you think the Jedha, Tatooine, Hoth, Bespin, and Endor troops came from? A couple of light cruisers? They came from ISD's above the planet, which was my point. "No shit. Not the point" except that is the point, which Is why I said it. ISDs are just very useful utility wise, which is why they increase in presence, instead of a bunch of smaller craft. "Yes, because it was shit in that role. Problem is that in most cases they simply didn't need to on the first place." It was hardly shit in the role of taking on entire alliance fleets. If anything they had their opportunity to shine near the end of the GCW, because the Alliance began to have ships capable of taking on the Imperial navy. But even in scariff, the two ISDs were a stark match for the entire fleet, which is why I advocate for more gunboat craft or corvette in imperial fleets, as the Y wings may not have had a successful bombing run if there were more anti-starfighter compliments. Your unnecessary hostility alongside your blatant incorrect takes made this very frustrating to work with 0_0
@@chrissonofpear1384 That's why i would take several CR-90s and Consulars as well. No single ship is perfect, but two or three ships are better than one.
Thing is with the mass vs. class argument people allways forget that the Mass needs a whole rat tail of support and logistics. Sure you can build a ton of light cruisers for a single imperial star destroyer.. but how do you mantain that fleet? How do you support it? Do you even have the logistic infrastructure available to support such a large amount of vessels? Also large amounts of smaller vessels means lower range of action since these ships cannot carry asmuch supplies and fuel, so you would need to add extra freighters to extend their range of action, wich in turn makes them more vulnerable and slow to react to threats. The rebel alliance had huge issues with this, needing very vulnerable freighters that where sitting ducks when discovered by the empire to support their fleets. Ontop of that not every star system in Star wars has shipyards and space stations capable of servicing larger fleets, most dont even have dedicated spaceports that can service military vessels on planet. A star destroyer can be on mission for months at a time on its own and project enough force to keep a system under control where a large fleet of smaller vessels needs constant resupply. Also larger fleets composed of smaller vessels are much more vulnerable to small hit and run attacks, a tactic mainly employed by the rebel alliance. A couple of starfighters arent much of a threat to a star destroyer (unless theres a protagonist involved) but they sure can cripple or destroy a light cruiser and retreat before the rest of the fleet has a chance to react, especially considering that the imperial light cruisers lacked any star fighter capabilities of their own. Just saying that more but lighter ships = better result is wrong, it allways depends on the circumstances you find yourselfe in. If you have the resources, and the empire had them, it is better to go large. If you dont, like the rebel alliance, its better to invest into smaller but numerical superior forces since the loss of a single vessel wouldnt sting so much despite the higher maintenance cost.
I love he frigates and corvettes of SW. I wish they were utilized more in the movies. It's a lot harder to neutralize ten Arquitens than one ISD....ROGUE ONE taught us that. I wonder how the Battle of Scarif would have gone had there been 6-10 Arquitens and Raiders instead of two ISDs.....
They should have used a combined-arms approach, investing far more heavily in light cruisers and producing more of them than in our timeline, while expanding the size of star destroyers, producing fewer of them so they could serve as military administrative centers for entire systems, used as a last reserve while allowing light cruisers to do the rest of the heavy work. Then, of course. They should have kept the venator design, expanding on it in some cases to store more fighters
The problem with going mainly lots of smaller ships like the Arquitens is that they're easier to permanently disable and destory you could cut apart the imperial navy with sudden surprise bomber rushes and then jump back out an occupation of a planet couldn't be held properly without several of these ships, so take a few out and the rest are forced to retreat and wait for reinforcements An ISD takes A LOT more concentrated fire power to take down, basically a whole rebel cell on a single target Also an IDS's greatest strength is it's ability to deploy ground troops, enough for a single ISD to control most outer rim planets Arquitens can't carry many troops and vehicles so they'd have to escort vulnerable transports that could also be picked off as well forcing a battle group to abandon a planet So while I love the venator, it's not the best ship for the empire's needs though, especially since those ships needed acclimators to make up for lack of group troops since it's focus is on space fighters The empire has to occupy planets, not just hard counter the alliance ship tactics Going this strategy would honestly make it easier for me in Empire at war to conquer planets, I could just pick apart these weak smaller forces with a few Nebulon Bs and some support fighters or just focus on their supporting troop transports with smaller faster ships like corellian gun ships and force them to Abaddon their occupation
this is like boiling down ww2 as "germany shouldn't have built tigers and panthers and focused on Panzer 4s" while it makes some logical sense, it leaves out a much larger logistical issue
@@theuniversedoesntcare More the fanboys. GT just made video about fact that First Order actually did have good tactic and Thrawn is canon. Just he was dead from quite some time. And of course if there would be such character then whiny bitches would complain that Disney rehash ideas. As after all it isn't about what actually is in those movies, but petty dick measuring.
You compared Star Wars capital ships fighting styles as comparable to early 20th century navy battle, I assume you mean like the WW1 Battle of Jutland I would argue that they're more like the early 19th century Battle of Trafalgar and battles before hand in which the opposing ships firing broadsides at each other from only a few hundred feet from each other maximum Although Horatio Nelson was more famous for his "Crossing The T" maneuver than firing broadsides where you saul straight at the enemy ships and fire broadsides as you pass between them as oppose to line formations where you're in parallel lines to each other and fire until one ship is too damaged to continue The Battle of Jutland had the opposing ships over 10 miles from each other using turreted big guns. NOT something you see in Star Wars battles, esp. in the prequels
And carrier fighter doctrine is slowlly becomming outdated. The threats to carriers are becomming longer ranged than the attack range of its fighter wing.
I wouldn't count them out just yet. History has shown tech thought to be "outdated and irrelevant" is actually neither once war actually happens. You need only look at Vietnam for the latest example. We thought the days of dog-fighting were over, and so we had no guns on our planes. The Russians showed us how wrong we were. Carriers are certainly not as safe as they once were, but that only means they must be properly protected, and carefully deployed. Do both, and they still have use. Planes and choppers can do things long range missiles still can't. Also, mark my words, R&D is already working on counters, assuming they don't have highly classified ones already.
Carriers are really expensive to keep in operation, although they are useful for force projection. Honestly, I think that something the size of the ISD should be a carrier, filled with hyperdrive-capable ships and other equipment, and posted a short jump away from the actual fighting. Their value in force projection in this regard would be much higher than their value as a battleship. Let the ships that can maneuver (like cruisers) be filled with guns.
6:18 lol canon says the refitted Consular class frigates are 139m long, while the standard unarmed diplomatic variant is 115.. but both use the exact same hull model..(the Frigate having extra guns and less com dishes)
The problem with the Empire, or one of the problems, was command and control. 38 Arquitens Class Light Cruisers means a far wider flung force to keep control of. I'm not sure that the light cruiser concept would have saved the Empire in the long run given the overall behavior of the Empire and the manner it created it's own enemies. Those Light Cruisers while perfect for patrolling and operating against Rebel cells, also made for perfect Rebel strike teams for hit and run raids. The only thing that could save the Empire in the long run is not being the Empire.
I enjoy the Arquitens as much as the next guy, but honestly I think the Imperial version of the Nebula frigate (not the striped-down and modified Rebel B version) was a more modern and better choice for system patrol and as a picket ship. For bigger guns, the Vindicator cruiser is a nearly perfect replacement for the old and slow Victory SD. In a task force they'd be far more capable than a single ISD, and no doubt cheaper in terms of manpower and cost.
The Rogue One version is a detailed replica of the 2 foot miniature from 1977, with extra details added. The Rebels ones are a carto... I mean, stylistic choice.
This actually makes so much sense. I love the military evolution of star wars (until the sequel trilogy) Before the clone wars planets had to defend themselves with fighters and small cruisers. They didnt have the resources to make and maintain capital ships. This ideology was used in the clone wars. The republic and CIS navy is based off this mindset. It used retrofitted civilian ships, consular, cr90, lukrehulk, munificent and created ships to support a fighter dominated warfare, venator and providence. The republic through the development and use of victory class and probably prototype ISDs found out heavier, stronger ships were more effective in a conventional war. So with the trasition into an empire, with this mindset, they built more and more ISDs. But to have hands on control of the galaxy ISDs were too expensive and resourse intensive. (Even the republic couldn't patrol the entire galaxy) That's were the tarkin doctrine comes in. Control the galaxy through fear. But the tarkin doctire military was ineffective against rebels who use hit and run tactics. This evolution is amazing because you can see the military evolve. As the audience we can nitpick and see why this and that could've been done better, but within the lore, the military evolves using it's own history. The empire didnt know of the rebel threat when it created its military. It only had the clone wars to look to for guidance. A war that could've been prevented/won earlier if it had a heavier hand and stronger ships. Therefore the empire created the tarkin doctire and ISDs.
I agree with your assessment of this Republic design and the distinction of the Republic Navy being a wartime navy and the Imperial Navy being a peacetime/territory holding navy. I wonder how many ISD 38 Arquitens could defeat? Same production cost, similar manpower and resource use as well.
Just completed a game of Star Wars Armada after a long break. Used 6 of those babies split into 2 divisions with Thrawn in command of the squadron... Lets just say they quickly stripped the shields off a winged MC80 in 1 turn
I would agree, but add in some Vindicator Heavy Cruisers (the ship whose hull was the basis for the Interdictor) for some increased firepower where needed. I mean, a Vindicator could be configured to carry as many Ties as a ISD... just doesn't have quite as much firepower, but still more than enough to deal with most of the ships the Rebellion could field
A mix of Aquitens and Broadside cruisers works good in EAW canon story mod, sadly the aquitens moves in range of its turbolaser so I only fire missiles with the broadsides and get rid of fighters with the aquitens. If you could fire missiles without coming closer it would be the perfect ship for all fleets.
Four words: LORONAR STRIKE-CLASS CRUISER. Modular enough to the point where it can be mass-produced and outfitted for different mission profiles. Destructive enough for most jobs.
7:15 The launch system for Tie fighters was also personally designed by Darth Vader - based around the philosophy of _spinning is a good trick._
*_Han: LAUGHS IN MILLENIUM FALCON._*
*_DARTH VADER: "YOU DO NOT KNOW THE POWER OF SPINNING!"_*
The Empire REALLY should have held on to some of their Venators and backed Thrawn's TIE-Defender program.
Use Rebel tactics basically?
@@DarkApostleNoek Counter-insurgency logistics, but in a way, yes. The Tarkin doctrine was asenine. The Empire spent so much time scaring civilians, they kinda forgot how to fight soldiers.
@Matthew Caughey PRECISELY. Here's a bit of irony. Galen Erso developed the Kyber tech that became the power source of the Death Star's superlaser believing that it was an alternative energy program. If the Empire had just gone with that instead of making a superweapon, they could have created billions of jobs and made money rather than wasting it. They could have starved the rebellion of new recruits this way.
People also often use cost as an excuse for these substandard TIE variants, but considering the heavy losses, anything effective that cost less than 100 TIE-LNs would have been a wise investment. After all, the starfighter itself was not the only thing that cost money in that equation. They also had to recruit, train, and equip pilots which that costs money a lot of money. The 1st generation of TIE pilots were incredibly skilled and they were wasted on inferior starfighters.
In summation, the only 2 things the Imperial military industrial complex did efficiently were incurring unnecessary cost and making enemies where enemies needed not be made.
While that would've worked, to play devils advocate, the Vendators were a symbol of the old Republic and Tie Defenders had the disadvantage of being easy to abscond with, being single seat with a hyperdrive - although they could've made two variants, a standard one without a hyperdrive and even more speed/armour/ordinance in place of the hyperdrive, that would also cost less.
And the Thrawn model (with hyperdrive) for proven loyalist to be used with hunter killer teams.
But just switching half the production of ISD's to light cruisers would also have worked.
Each remaining ISD is assigned a support fleet of between 2 - 8 Arqitens (depending on threat level) to act as _screens for hyperdrive snubfighters,_ and that still leaves a lot to do routine patrols.
@@casbot71 The TIE-Defender had a remote killswitch and the first generation of Imperial TIE pilots was fiercely loyal to the Galactic Empire. That being said, I agree that a local system TIE-Defender variant would have its uses for the greater sub-light speed and loyalty screening purposes you mentioned, but they would also be useful for training and local system security patrol purposes. The Venators(altered to Imperial grey and black) would provide an excellent staging platform for the Short range TIE-Defender variant thus serving as a symbol of order.
I also agree with redirecting half of the ISD budget for Arquitens-Class cruisers as they are very efficient.
The Proper TIE-Defenders would of course be piloted exclusively by the best of the best and assigned exclusively to Rebel hunting squadrons within battle groups consisting of 1 Venator for maintainence/logistical support, 1 ISD altered to function exclusively as a battleship for anti capital ship engagements, 1 interdictor cruiser to counter hit-and-run tactics, and 4 Arquitens-Class cruisers for anti Starfighter, cruiser, corvette, etc. screening.
On an unrelated note, I love the word "abscond". I so rarely get a chance to use it in conversation.😁👍
“Along with several inches of plot armor” - Alan 2020
Most powerful armor there is.
Nothing stronger
Nice
Better than Beskar I heard
hmm, Plot Armor vs Rey shields, now that is an evil thought. lol.
The vneck gets deeper with every new video, I just realised omf
The microphone’s probably really heavy
Me to
5 years later
No shirt
Might become Jedi robes
Cosmo 456 why should you even focus on that??? Exposed!!!
Did you just say V-Tec? Honda: Brrrrrrb brrrb brrrrrrrrrb!!!!!
"Defecation always comes before Defection"
- Unknown rebel running away at the battle of Hoth
Sounds like the streets of California is a warning sign
Prevents chaffing.
@@scottmurphy4946 Hilarious, but it isn't as bad as it seems.
Absolutely love the Arquitens! Probably one of the best Star Wars ship designs I've ever seen!
It's pretty neat. I hope the issue with it's length is sorted out as fast as the Hammerhead was, though.
Same here, I like it and the Gozanti, mainly because they're not simply just redesigned Star Destroyers. I also like them because it shows that the Empire's navy is comprised of more than just Star Destroyers. I wonder, if Lucas had more money when he made the original Star Wars, would he have included more ship types accompanying them or would he still have stuck to just showing us SDs?
In Rebels I failed to see how several TIEs managed to exit the mid section of the nose part
Isaac Kim the gap in the front can hold a few ties of various designs but some common issue I see a lot is that there is a a hangar in the ship. Look at it in rebels there is no space big enough for ties to go in that isn’t used for something else
Grand Admiral Thrawn is the one being who could have save the entire Galactic Empire; having all of the greatest weapons in the galaxy doesn't matter if you have a tyrannical bully (Vader), a megalomaniac (Krennic), a sociopath (Tarkin) or a combination of the three (Palpatine) as the leading figure.
Edit: What I meant was Thrawn doesn't have fits of bloodlust and/or psychosis; the Thrawn Trilogy noted that Thrawn had a much cooler head than Palpatine and Vader.
However his achievement never get to its full potential.
Except Palpatine is a genius mastermind, Vader is a wunderkind in battle, and Tarkin is good for keeping the politicians and generals in line. Thrawn is a good war commander like Vader, but he's got no chops for politics. If he had, he could have just injured the New Republic enough to force them into a truce against the Vong, and he could have lived. He was also not smart enough to realize that his assassins' true loyalty was to Vader, not him, and two of Vader's kids serve the other side and would happily turn the Nohgri against him.
@Gaius Wyrden true
@Gaius Wyrden Yes. We know truth about Lucas from the 80's, you miss your bandwagon 0_0
@@HolyknightVader999 You confuse tactical genius with being Marry Sue. Problem of the Empire was that it didn't use best people for the job, because tyrant always need to be on the top. Rule "mediocre but loyal" is main disadvantage of most totalitarian dictatorships. Thrawn did get pass exactly because he wasn't interested in politic, but stoping Vongs (and also one of few people who know how to fight them). And it also doesn't change fact that he was absolutely correct regard weakens of Empire's tactic, but it wasn't his problem in long run.
The ship save Ashoka people in Clone wars on that Zigerian prison planet
Ahsoka's species is known as the Togruta.
Joshy Boy thx 👍
@@gnarkldarborboe9903 Well, George did like to connect real world issues with Star Wars.
We also see a Zygerrian freighter in TROS...
@@chrissonofpear1384 yes saw that!! I was honestly more excited about that than the main heroes reuniting lmao
Well well well, seems like Moff Gideon has seen this video
I love the imperial version of this ship
yeah, although it seems he has a larger variant given that an Imperial shuttle can fit inside the front prongs. Still a much more practical flagship for a Moff with limited fueling capabilities than an Imperial-I/II Star Destroyer.
@@dr0g_Oakblood i dont think it is larger.. Imperial shuttles are much smaller than you would think
@@farawaygaming_ I mean I'm basing part of my statement on the video this channel just released on Mandalorian ship sizes, and remember, Gideon's ship is called a different class, 456-class IIRC.
@@dr0g_Oakblood oh cool, anyways did u know that the shuttle is a miniature
“3/10 not enough guns” -Palpatine
With the sudden leap in *planet killing* weapons technology in TROS the issue has been solved.
There will be a steady decrease in the _number of inhabited planets._
3 movies from now tie fighters will be able to blow up planets
They already had a fighter sized craft that could go a step above that and blow up entire star systems, as well as missiles that could disintegrate entire planets in legends, so it isn't as silly as it sounds. It was called the sun crusher and was also made of indestructible metal that could take a turbolaser strike without damage.
@@DeathBYDesign666 it had to destabilise a sun.
@@DeathBYDesign666 sounds like disney was wise to make legends not canon lol
@@DeathBYDesign666 Why you think that Disney haters has any actual knowledge about Star Wars? I never did see such blind mob in my life and I survived Evangelion fandom 0_0
Ideally I would use the light cruisers with venators acting as a flagship/carrier and instead of regular cheap tie fighters use thrawns tie defenders with a mix of V wings
Honestly just station a Star Destroyer over Incom's headquarters and tell them to fork it over
I have a soft spot for the Venator Class..
Many people do and i appreciate every last one of us.
The Venator is my love, would gladly serve on one of those.
So?
@@TheRezro Only a Republic Clone Trooper would understand.
@@theuniversedoesntcare Are you stoned? Venator is probably most popular capital ship in entire Star Wars 0_0
The a quote about the carrak light cruiser that fits this.
An ISD cant be everywhere, 10 carraks can.
They were a good ship, tough and powerful enough to kill everything medium cruiser or less-sized.
How about 6 Carracks, 2 Strike-cruisers, a Lancer, and an Escort Carrier?
@@Euripides_Panz Chuck in a Victory at a central location for call-in backup/support and you're good. If there's something out there strong enough to kill a Vic, you're already deep enough in Poodoo an ISD wouldn't cut it.
Yeah, and infravalorated ship
You mean isb
The Arquitens-class is one of my favorite SW ship designs, right up there with Naboo ships.
Same here. It looks mean and menacing while still being far more practical than something like an ISD. Heck, even the Harrower class Dreadnought from the Old Republic days is a better-formatted battlecruiser than the ISD, with its generous hanger bays, several fighter squadrons, a dedicated bomber squadron, heavy guns to deal with other capital ships, and dozens of quad laser turrets for point defense/anti-starfighter use. I would take a scaled-up and modernized Harrower over and ISD any day.
Happy New Years Humanity! We love you and hope you have a great new year!
The dolphins will face our wrath this decade! I know it!
So basically LICs for patrols and ISDs with heavy fighter complements (TIE Defenders) for actual warfare engagements like the Battle of Endor.
So basically, we begin the year with another ship with a length discrepancy..? ( :
Corna 2020 a b**h
Basically LICs for patrols and ISDs with heavy fighter complements (TIE Defenders) for actual warfare engagements like the Battle of Endor.
Using ISD as the carrier is stupid. Resurgent is far better because it actually did have independent Point Defense and was used for offensive purpose.
@@TheRezro Just retrofit the ISDs to have such things. No need to make new platforms. They can already operate as a Venator if you retrofit them.
@@TechnoMinarchist And why they should operate as Venator on the first place? ISD was evolution of Venator concept, what was flawed in the principle. Having more TIE's wouldn't solve anything, especially if we speak about shitty basic model. What Empire actually needed was enough ships to prevent Rebellion from forming in the unprotected systems. For that they need gigantic fleet of Arquitens (with support of Gazanti) and lighter Star Destroyers like Quasars, Gladiators and Acclamators. With only small number of Victory and ISD (and those Venators what survived) for those rare cases when something larger would pop-up. Making fleet solely from ISD's was ridiculous (alongside anything larger as ISD was already larger then almost everything in service). Also ISD was infamous from numerous flaws as rushed model. They need replace it anyway (and they did with ISD2 and Resurgent).
@@TheRezro Are you ignoring the first part of my original comment?
ISDs wouldn't be used for patrols and peacekeeping. They are war machines designed for major combat events like the Battle of Endor.
The ISD on its own doesn't fit the format though for an all out war scenario due to how small its fighter compliment is however, something Venators did not have a problem with.
@@TechnoMinarchist Same as you. As tell that to Empire what actually did use them primarily for projection of the power, when it actually should used as Battlecruiser (what later was the case). Also Venator was gradually armored and its fighter compartment decreased as, most fighters at the time didn't have hyperdrives, so most fights end on short range. Same tactic was used by the Empire, with ISD being superior to Venator here as it could easily destroy most capital ships. Problem was that it completely didn't work against raids (slash tactic used by the Rebellion) as enemy ships disappear before ISD could even launch its small compartment of fighters. Increasing it wouldn't help even slightly. Star Destroyers work more for offence then defense. And as for use with long range fighters why have heavy turbo-lasers then? As such why use ISD frame at all? Such large carrier should be absolutely protected by the large fleet during specific offensive operations (like carriers work IRL). From practical point of view use of dedicated escort carriers like Quasars, would do the job way better.
Watching this after the Mandalorian Season 2 finished... quite prophetic Allen!
Empire: Use big ship, scare many people
Generation Tech: ZeRg RuSh DeM rEbELs
I think a good imperial fleet would be one ISD as a command ship then some Light imperial ships accompanying and probably a dedicated carrier to escort it and provide fighter/bomber support.
Arqitens class light cruiser: I am the savior of the empire !
Lancer class frigate: Yeah, yeah, hold my beer.
Wasn't the lancer a frigate?
@@trianglean806 Well... yes it is :D
*laughs in crusader corvette
@@johnwilliams9179 laughs straight back in Raider corvette
How big was Vitiate's Sith Empire's navy and how did it take so many territories so quickly from the much larger and heavily populated Republic?
This
Thor's Hammer outer rim territories, always 😉👍🏻
Surprise attacks, coordinated military strategy, terror tactics, the Republic's incompetence, and the Emperor's foresight.
HolyknightVader999 has a solid answer. However, it's more than just that. The Emperor had lots of infiltrators in the Republic and Jedi Order, and this helped them gain valuable intel and lots of worlds. The Empire didn't just do a full-on invasion like everyone thinks. They too used treachery and struck when the time was right.
I'm pretty sure its supposed to be a world war 2 reference for the Blitzkrieg. The Empire was able to push all the way to Coruscant quickly, then they lost after the cold war period. There is a small "Cold War" after France surrenders to the germans, after the Allies hold on and regroup they win.
The Arquietns class is one of my favorite ships all time. Looks absolutely stunning and would make sense as an Escort for star destroyers.
1:15 y tho? LMAO? Ever since I've seen fight club, I always look for these!
BTW always loved the channel, keep it going!
Humanity First!
I was wonderig the same thing lol
Happy new decade! My new years resolution is to pay off the massive debt I owe to the Hutt clans.
Good luck
Try not to... ahem... _dissapear_ before you’ve paid it ☺️☺️☺️☺️😈
@@patchworkfellow Looks like that advice might've arrived...a bit too late.
So weird how these ships are so good but each rebel episode they destroy countless light cruisers and a SD occasionally
bcos of the "several inches of reinforced plot armor" 8:40
The Rebels , Especially the Ghost crew were
Kanan Jarus ; Jedi knight
Ezra bridger : Jedi Pawan knight
Hera Syndulla : One of best pilots of era , daughter of Cham Syndulla aka Twilek War leader
Sabine Wre. : Mandalorian , Clan Wren daughter , Imperial Weapons designer
Chopper : War Criminal , Ex Y wing astromech
Ghost : Modified Stealth Frieghter heavy Gunship ,light years better than even the existing Military models
Imperial Arquitens : Slower than its predecessor , it's best advantage over enemies tanken away and basically a underpowered Patrol cruiser
"EMPRIE"? You mean... *_EMPIRE._*
*'Judges in Imperial'*
*Defecates in Rebel*
*screaming in republic*
*
Laughs in Separatist
Laughs in *SITH EMPIRE*
A little reminder, the Carrack class light cruiser! A modular design class that could fill a number of roles. (Note, Pre Disney.)
Just switching _half the production_ of ISD's to light cruisers would have worked.
The Empire then has 12500 ISD's and 475000 Arqitens light cruisers (assuming 38 Arqitens for each ISD).
Each remaining ISD is assigned a support fleet of between 2 - 8 Arqitens (depending on threat level) to act as _screens for hyperdrive snubfighters,_ and that still leaves a lot of Arquitens free to do routine patrols.
And those ISD's are far more effective as the light cruisers can help them patrol a system by covering the other side of a planet and boxing in ships trying to run.
Bring in another 2.5k Carracks as squadron flagships and you've got a force capable of tackling anything smaller than an Destroyer.
I'm a fan of the raider class corvette.
Raiders are some beautiful corvettes.
@@TheVeritas1 yes indeed. If I was in the gffa, I'd definitely steal one from the imps and turn it into my personal ship.
@rumsmuggler30 Brilliant for what it does, but _maybe_ not a flagship...
@@patchworkfellow true, but it's my day to day ship so it'll be modified to handle most situations.
That corvette is awesome
Disney should have kept the Legends era Strike and Carrack class cruisers, the Lancet frigates etc.
Carrack, Lancer and especially Gozanti are canon, you imbeciles 0_0
@@TheRezro How? Gozanti, sure. But not the other two.
@@TheRezro insulting people over a nothing issue makes you look foolish, especially when you are wrong
Tartan patrol cruiser standing by.
@@TheRezro Even if they ARE they sure don't show up very much.
the Arquitens is one of my favorite SW ships
ah now i see why Moff Gideon chose this ship
1:11 "Demilitarisation in a thousand years before the Battle of Yavin (1000 BBY) meant that most *_plants_* were kinda expected to create their own local defense forces or planetary militias."
No wonder why the Plantae Kingdom founded the secessionist movement that led to the Clone Wars.
Exactly!
Day of the Triffids all over again...
Vader and Thrawn could've saved the empire. Both hated the death star and Vader was actively backing Thrawns defender program. It's also heavily suggested in the last of the new Thrawn trilogy that Vader was actually the one that created the Super Star Destroyers as a concept. I think combined these philosophies complement each other perfectly - small number of giant command ships to replace the unnecessarily large amount of star destroyers while being backed up by a fleet of highly versatile, hyperdrive equipped TIE defenders.
Happy New Year to Galactic Empire.
It seems the ideal setup of imperial navy was a modern venator providing large wings of fighters, arquitens for anti fighter, patrol and support, gazanti for light service roles, and some type of long range fighter, like TIE scout or a more cost effective TIE advanced.
The ISD and two venator core of a fleet would have been insane. Make the isd the land vehicle carrier while the venators held the starships. Sprinkle in some arquitens and some light carriers and it’s pretty scary
Liked the video, also wanted to say expanded universe forever
You forgot to mention one key issue with the light cruiser that led to a lot of them being destroyed at was those turbo lasers. There are quite a few instances where the rebels hit those magazines and the entire ship went down
Happy new year, gonna celebrate with spice and death sticks
Remember always have a spice buddy in case you get a bad batch.
This doesn’t have nearly enough likes.
here is a topic you might whanna look at: Why do the imperial starships have green blasters, where pritty everybody else in the galaxy uses red ones?
The green Turbolaser is the most powerful version while the red lasers are the cheaper less powerful version. The blue lasers used by Clone Wars Era was the type that would be more effective against machines but could still be used against organics.
Crystals.
More the type of gas used.
The ISD is still a good platform for a command ship, but I agree they needed more ships of varying roles to expand their reach to a greater degree. This showcases the problems with out of touch centralized command and bureaucrats.
Ngl the Empire should’ve used Separatist Vulture droids replaced Tie fighters since vulture droids were much more agile and were harder shoot down since they didn’t have the same comically large wings like the tie fighter did. But probably the biggest benefit the vulture had was the cost, a vulture droid costed 3X less than a single tie fighter(a vulture droid has price numbering around 20,000 Credits while the tie fighter numbered around 60,000 Credits)
I used this ship in empire at war and it was a whole fleet of em. It destroyed.
The empire needed numbers as well.
One ISD controlling multiple light cruisers.
The empire did deploy light cruisers in some cases instead of ISD. But a fleet usually didn’t have these light cruisers only ISD.
Happy new year!
Happy new decade!
Happy new Year
@@GenerationTech you forgot the decade part
Generation Tech wow, didn’t expect you to respond! Love your channel!
Let's hope it's a better decade than the last. That was fairly rough.
for the empire the venator class "star destroyer" or a very similar ship would have been great, since the rebels lacked capital ships, but had a large and experienced starfighter fleet, and the best thing against fighters is a better fighter
It's strange, our move in doctrine towards carriers and subs for that matter. Planes are largely only useful against other planes, subs or other slow moving, relatively thin skinned vehicles (tanks are included, compared to battleships), and civilian targets, which you have to be the lowest form of life to consider that a viable target. They are okay at striking on surface installations, not that there are too many important ones that aren't buried in a bunker.
The Graf Spree, a pocket battleship in the mid 20th Century, operating alone, occupied massive amounts of Allied resource and material, because you can't ignore a battleship.
The Yamato class battleship occupied a fleet and 5 carriers worth of planes for hours before it was sunk. It was by itself, more or less, and had a crew of just about 2800 versus a carrier like the Nimitz say, which had a crew of 3500. So, not counting the surface fleet and horribly fudging the crew compliment of the actual carriers, 17,500 men to slow 2800, that's what you call effective use of resources. Because you can't ignore a battleship.
Each ship has its use, some less glorious than others. Subs attack freighters, harrass shipping and may engage what few targets of opportunity exist, though largely a lot of reconnaissance and faking Doom's Day scenarios, lately. Carriers are mobile airfields, for when you can't establish a less sinkable one. Battleships are command centers, mobile (limited) artillery, ships of the line, very hard to sink with ramming them (or getting close enough to), and large enough they cannot be ignored.
The oddity for me, is that we haven't intermixed them on a battle cruiser like the Kiev, where sinking one does not sink your entire air force. Or at least make smaller more defensible carriers. Maybe they Age of the Giants came to an end, but as it would happen based on things I hear, the Age of the Battleship is not quite at an end.
Tarkin's reliance on fear is ineffectual. Fear only works if there is alternatives. Put simply, they will do what you ask, to the minimum effect, and only as long as their fear is greater than what they feel they have to lose. Mixed with oppression, you will have a failing state in no time. Fear ultimately only makes enemies.
His doctrine relied on these floating citadels to remind everyone who is king. So, making one tumble to the ground, emboldens the dissident.
The rebels only ever needed to symbolically sink one, to show the Empire's weakness, to gain a victory. I would just have another one show up and takes its place, but I can be mean. Line ships are not objects of fear, but of defense and a promise of reprisal. They represent the strength of a Navy. But they are hardly an Army or Invulnerable. They have their uses, particularly in occupying your enemies ire and resources. Because in the end, you can't ignore a battleship.
I've been looking at this problem due to being nerd sniped with a "how you you build your imperial fleet using canon prices" and I've come to a similar conclusion. The Tarkin Doctrine was dumb, and really should have been seen for its flaws early on.
I do feel a monolitic force is ill advised, even one built around the Arquitens, as awesome as it is. Another thing worth noting is that an Arquitens is 25x the price of a Gozanti, which by itself is enough to keep the peace on a backwater, but certainly would need reinforcement for anything more plot focused. Also if you're purchasing say 100,000 or 1,000,000 cruisers, you probably get to make whatever modifications you need from the beginning rather than having to do them as aftermarket kits, which could significantly increase their sturdiness and firepower. After all until recently, Lockheed Martin has done similar for individual nations purchasing F-16s IRL, and those were for purchases in the dozens or hundreds rather than thousands or millions.
A mixed force of capitol ships with smaller cruisers, and with even smaller military upscaled cruisers and patrol vessels probably would be the best in my opinion. Even better if those capitol ships strongly include Venators with a good fighter complement (Say, TIE/ag, TIE/d and TIE/ph focused where possible, as an analogue to the real world F-16, F-15 and F-22)
that clip of the stormtrooper punching baby yoda makes me cry every time 😭
Well "baby" yoda is 2 times older than me.. 🤷🏼♂️
Lego Yoda>baby Yoda
Agreed, the Arquitens makes so much sense and I like the way it launches it's fighers.
Though as a fan of the Gozanti I have to say ... fair points about it's shortcomings. It can only do it's best.
A englarged Arquitens which can carry and additional few fighters. Lets say 6. Two cruisers and you can muster a Defender squadron.
Indeed. Only being able to carry 3 TIE interceptors is not good enough. More fighters are better, especially good fighters like TIE defenders.
3 Interceptors, yes, or two miniature Sentinel shuttles - (based on observed 200 metre length)
Tight fit at present.
Something I just noticed what's with house plant image at 1:15? Otherwise great video :)
Yo what why is that there?
Victory class would be a good substitute, keep fear but be less resource intensive and faster and more practical
Plus a shit load of missiles that could be used against fighters.
I love the Vic. It's my favorite Imp ship.
@@thebighurt2495 simple elegant, and able to do everything ISD does, but for less
Wasn't the VSD slower at sublight than the ISD?
@@dylanlewis5113 the Victory 1 yes, the 2 have new engines
My new favorite ship, the "Sports" Warship, R-Spec Package. Gideon's got taste!
I would assume the ISDs were favored over the Light cruisers due to the fact that ISD's aren't just capital ships, they're mobile Imperial command bases. Each ISD houses essentially an entire army that can subjugate, and police a system. It could house, supply, and re purpose large amounts of starfighters in a relatively short time as opposed to Gozanti's which were super mini carriers. Arquitens were very effective at patrolling and policing obscure, unimportant systems while ISD's made the rounds over rebellious or relatively lawless systems. I think the Empire was just really in need of more Corvette-like ships in their fleet, with a few support ships like the Arquitens to deal with smaller vessels like Blockade runners.
The problem is the Rebs knew to hit where the ISDs WEREN'T, so the ISDs were just avoided entirely and weren't that useful in the end.
@@thebighurt2495 Well the Empire can't be everywhere at once, so they would have to sacrifice numbers to provide security to as many systems as possible. You get the bang with your buck with an ISD, which housed an entire imperial garrison to occupy a planet. But ISDs were far from useless, they would have been utilized in countless insurrections and ground invasions, with the Battle of Hoth, Mimban, Jedha, as a few examples. Warfare isn't entirely limited by space, so an ISD could theoretically occupy a planet, whereas small cruisers would not with their small troop capacity. This is why as more important planets become, more ISDs are stationed over the planet. The rebellion wasn't afraid of taking on ISD's either, the battle of Scarrif proved that. The real problem is that the Destroyers themselves had awful ship to fighter capabilites, and were overwhelmed easily by the rebel Trench run defense tactic. I think more corvettes would be a more sound instead of mass produced ISD's.
Not enough fighters though. And at 8 times smaller, can't take much damage,
@@GimmieTheJimmie "Well the Empire can't be everywhere at once, so they would have to sacrifice numbers to provide security to as many systems as possible"
Yes and it is exactly why ISD in that role is dumb idea 0_0
"You get the bang with your buck with an ISD, which housed an entire imperial garrison to occupy a planet"
So why not place that garrison ON the planet 0_0
"But ISDs were far from useless, they would have been utilized in countless insurrections and ground invasions, with the Battle of Hoth, Mimban, Jedha, as a few examples"
And strawman is made form straw 0_0
"Warfare isn't entirely limited by space, so an ISD could theoretically occupy a planet, whereas small cruisers would not with their small troop capacity"
Except it couldn't do few dozens Arquitans could 0_0
"This is why as more important planets become, more ISDs are stationed over the planet"
No shit. Not the point 0_0
"The rebellion wasn't afraid of taking on ISD's either, the battle of Scarrif proved that"
Yes, because it was shit in that role. Problem is that in most cases they simply didn't need to on the first place.
"I think more corvettes would be a more sound instead of mass produced ISD's."
So you disagree, but claims literally the same? What?
@@TheRezro Yes, it's possible to not fully agree with someone, sorry if this is a new concept to you. Let's go over your points: "Yes and it is exactly why ISD in that role is dumb idea" Well no. ISD's are made specifically to have the manpower to police other systems, as well as destroy said system if necessary. This isn't something a couple of Arquitens can do. "So why not place that garrison ON the planet" Because the Empire has an entire galaxy to patrol, and having mobile legions to reinforce other areas of the galaxy is pretty sound isn't it? "And strawman is made form straw" I'm not sure if you were calling that statement obvious, or you were calling it a strawman, either of which would not be true. I'm using those examples to reinforce my Idea that ISDs are the figurehead of planetary sieges and battles, each one of those battles I listed had commands and troops issued from an ISD. Again, small cruisers aren't sufficient for this role. "Except it couldn't do few dozens Arquitans could" Except it did? What? Did you not even read the quoted points? Where do you think the Jedha, Tatooine, Hoth, Bespin, and Endor troops came from? A couple of light cruisers? They came from ISD's above the planet, which was my point. "No shit. Not the point" except that is the point, which Is why I said it. ISDs are just very useful utility wise, which is why they increase in presence, instead of a bunch of smaller craft. "Yes, because it was shit in that role. Problem is that in most cases they simply didn't need to on the first place." It was hardly shit in the role of taking on entire alliance fleets. If anything they had their opportunity to shine near the end of the GCW, because the Alliance began to have ships capable of taking on the Imperial navy. But even in scariff, the two ISDs were a stark match for the entire fleet, which is why I advocate for more gunboat craft or corvette in imperial fleets, as the Y wings may not have had a successful bombing run if there were more anti-starfighter compliments. Your unnecessary hostility alongside your blatant incorrect takes made this very frustrating to work with 0_0
Great video and I love the design of this ship. Love your content
I would certainly take the Arquitens Light cruiser, along with several CR-90s and Consulars.
I think the power of the Arquitens may be overstated though, Particularly with it's length issues.
@@chrissonofpear1384 That's why i would take several CR-90s and Consulars as well. No single ship is perfect, but two or three ships are better than one.
Yes, a nice balanced force.
Empire: litterally dying
Some random light cruiser: aight imma save the empire
Is the same ship that moff Gideon used or was on
It would be nice if you compared Imperial Light cruiser vs Moff gideon's light cruiser sometime.
Why was there a random plant that flashed on the screen?
@D S yh, at like 1:15, pause your video
@D S ik, I was playing along
Thing is with the mass vs. class argument people allways forget that the Mass needs a whole rat tail of support and logistics. Sure you can build a ton of light cruisers for a single imperial star destroyer.. but how do you mantain that fleet? How do you support it? Do you even have the logistic infrastructure available to support such a large amount of vessels?
Also large amounts of smaller vessels means lower range of action since these ships cannot carry asmuch supplies and fuel, so you would need to add extra freighters to extend their range of action, wich in turn makes them more vulnerable and slow to react to threats. The rebel alliance had huge issues with this, needing very vulnerable freighters that where sitting ducks when discovered by the empire to support their fleets.
Ontop of that not every star system in Star wars has shipyards and space stations capable of servicing larger fleets, most dont even have dedicated spaceports that can service military vessels on planet. A star destroyer can be on mission for months at a time on its own and project enough force to keep a system under control where a large fleet of smaller vessels needs constant resupply.
Also larger fleets composed of smaller vessels are much more vulnerable to small hit and run attacks, a tactic mainly employed by the rebel alliance. A couple of starfighters arent much of a threat to a star destroyer (unless theres a protagonist involved) but they sure can cripple or destroy a light cruiser and retreat before the rest of the fleet has a chance to react, especially considering that the imperial light cruisers lacked any star fighter capabilities of their own.
Just saying that more but lighter ships = better result is wrong, it allways depends on the circumstances you find yourselfe in. If you have the resources, and the empire had them, it is better to go large. If you dont, like the rebel alliance, its better to invest into smaller but numerical superior forces since the loss of a single vessel wouldnt sting so much despite the higher maintenance cost.
I love he frigates and corvettes of SW. I wish they were utilized more in the movies. It's a lot harder to neutralize ten Arquitens than one ISD....ROGUE ONE taught us that. I wonder how the Battle of Scarif would have gone had there been 6-10 Arquitens and Raiders instead of two ISDs.....
*Shakes your hand, with that which stole Sin's heart.* Bless you, child.
*Rebels see Imperial Light Cruiser spam, responds with Assault Frigate/Corellian Gunship combo*
*Imperials* : " Wait, that's illegal.
They should have used a combined-arms approach, investing far more heavily in light cruisers and producing more of them than in our timeline, while expanding the size of star destroyers, producing fewer of them so they could serve as military administrative centers for entire systems, used as a last reserve while allowing light cruisers to do the rest of the heavy work. Then, of course. They should have kept the venator design, expanding on it in some cases to store more fighters
Easily my favourite space dorito.
The problem with going mainly lots of smaller ships like the Arquitens is that they're easier to permanently disable and destory
you could cut apart the imperial navy with sudden surprise bomber rushes and then jump back out
an occupation of a planet couldn't be held properly without several of these ships, so take a few out and the rest are forced to retreat and wait for reinforcements
An ISD takes A LOT more concentrated fire power to take down, basically a whole rebel cell on a single target
Also an IDS's greatest strength is it's ability to deploy ground troops, enough for a single ISD to control most outer rim planets
Arquitens can't carry many troops and vehicles so they'd have to escort vulnerable transports that could also be picked off as well forcing a battle group to abandon a planet
So while I love the venator, it's not the best ship for the empire's needs though, especially since those ships needed acclimators to make up for lack of group troops since it's focus is on space fighters
The empire has to occupy planets, not just hard counter the alliance ship tactics
Going this strategy would honestly make it easier for me in Empire at war to conquer planets, I could just pick apart these weak smaller forces with a few Nebulon Bs and some support fighters
or just focus on their supporting troop transports with smaller faster ships like corellian gun ships and force them to Abaddon their occupation
this is like boiling down ww2 as "germany shouldn't have built tigers and panthers and focused on Panzer 4s"
while it makes some logical sense, it leaves out a much larger logistical issue
I’ve been wondering, is that Carbonight Han in your background, just a poster or is it 3D ???
I always had love the Arquitens, its one of my favorite frigates on Star Wars, and I'm glad that they got a bigger role in Cannon
I wish Thrawn or atleast a Thrawn like character had been in the new trilogy.
In such case Resistance wouldn't have any chance to survive.
Disney refuses to adapt.
@@theuniversedoesntcare More the fanboys. GT just made video about fact that First Order actually did have good tactic and Thrawn is canon. Just he was dead from quite some time. And of course if there would be such character then whiny bitches would complain that Disney rehash ideas. As after all it isn't about what actually is in those movies, but petty dick measuring.
Happy New Year, Generation Tech! 🎊🎊
Looking forward to your content this year!
You compared Star Wars capital ships fighting styles as comparable to early 20th century navy battle, I assume you mean like the WW1 Battle of Jutland
I would argue that they're more like the early 19th century Battle of Trafalgar and battles before hand in which the opposing ships firing broadsides at each other from only a few hundred feet from each other maximum Although Horatio Nelson was more famous for his "Crossing The T" maneuver than firing broadsides where you saul straight at the enemy ships and fire broadsides as you pass between them as oppose to line formations where you're in parallel lines to each other and fire until one ship is too damaged to continue
The Battle of Jutland had the opposing ships over 10 miles from each other using turreted big guns. NOT something you see in Star Wars battles, esp. in the prequels
Great video also happy new year
Who's here after The Mandalorian S2 E4?
Me
Thanks for having content on New Years Day!
Would the venator be a better capital ship to fight the rebellion?
I want to say yes, but they'd just equip the Ven with a TIE swarm and make it moot.
Gotta admit, the Arquitens looked pretty slick in Republic red and grey (6.00)
His v neck is bigger than the whole ship
V neck resembled the star destroyers
One of my favourite ships! Well done.
And carrier fighter doctrine is slowlly becomming outdated. The threats to carriers are becomming longer ranged than the attack range of its fighter wing.
I wouldn't count them out just yet. History has shown tech thought to be "outdated and irrelevant" is actually neither once war actually happens. You need only look at Vietnam for the latest example. We thought the days of dog-fighting were over, and so we had no guns on our planes. The Russians showed us how wrong we were.
Carriers are certainly not as safe as they once were, but that only means they must be properly protected, and carefully deployed. Do both, and they still have use. Planes and choppers can do things long range missiles still can't. Also, mark my words, R&D is already working on counters, assuming they don't have highly classified ones already.
Carriers are really expensive to keep in operation, although they are useful for force projection. Honestly, I think that something the size of the ISD should be a carrier, filled with hyperdrive-capable ships and other equipment, and posted a short jump away from the actual fighting. Their value in force projection in this regard would be much higher than their value as a battleship. Let the ships that can maneuver (like cruisers) be filled with guns.
That moments when Star Wars draws parallels to real
6:18 lol canon says the refitted Consular class frigates are 139m long, while the standard unarmed diplomatic variant is 115.. but both use the exact same hull model..(the Frigate having extra guns and less com dishes)
Most plants were kind of expected to create their own planetary defense force.
Alan is a Dark side sith master that we all been looking for😂
The problem with the Empire, or one of the problems, was command and control. 38 Arquitens Class Light Cruisers means a far wider flung force to keep control of. I'm not sure that the light cruiser concept would have saved the Empire in the long run given the overall behavior of the Empire and the manner it created it's own enemies. Those Light Cruisers while perfect for patrolling and operating against Rebel cells, also made for perfect Rebel strike teams for hit and run raids.
The only thing that could save the Empire in the long run is not being the Empire.
I enjoy the Arquitens as much as the next guy, but honestly I think the Imperial version of the Nebula frigate (not the striped-down and modified Rebel B version) was a more modern and better choice for system patrol and as a picket ship. For bigger guns, the Vindicator cruiser is a nearly perfect replacement for the old and slow Victory SD. In a task force they'd be far more capable than a single ISD, and no doubt cheaper in terms of manpower and cost.
I hate the super long necks of the ISD in rebels, makes me hate my own favorite sci-fi ship
They look far better in rogue one
The Rogue One version is a detailed replica of the 2 foot miniature from 1977, with extra details added. The Rebels ones are a carto... I mean, stylistic choice.
Also, the ramming of one of those bridge towers allowed me to ah, scale this cruiser...
Defective Deification and subsequent Defection... >~< Galactic toilet humor... 0~o Ya gotta love that... ^~^
Alan, is your chest cold?
Alan sounds like he was up all night bringing in the new year.
The real ship that could’ve saved the empire is the x wing
Too bad Capitalism struck, huh?
What do you mean?
foxhound963 as my friend told me
They squandered a ship like the x wing over the tie
This actually makes so much sense. I love the military evolution of star wars (until the sequel trilogy) Before the clone wars planets had to defend themselves with fighters and small cruisers. They didnt have the resources to make and maintain capital ships. This ideology was used in the clone wars. The republic and CIS navy is based off this mindset. It used retrofitted civilian ships, consular, cr90, lukrehulk, munificent and created ships to support a fighter dominated warfare, venator and providence. The republic through the development and use of victory class and probably prototype ISDs found out heavier, stronger ships were more effective in a conventional war. So with the trasition into an empire, with this mindset, they built more and more ISDs. But to have hands on control of the galaxy ISDs were too expensive and resourse intensive. (Even the republic couldn't patrol the entire galaxy) That's were the tarkin doctrine comes in. Control the galaxy through fear. But the tarkin doctire military was ineffective against rebels who use hit and run tactics.
This evolution is amazing because you can see the military evolve. As the audience we can nitpick and see why this and that could've been done better, but within the lore, the military evolves using it's own history. The empire didnt know of the rebel threat when it created its military. It only had the clone wars to look to for guidance. A war that could've been prevented/won earlier if it had a heavier hand and stronger ships. Therefore the empire created the tarkin doctire and ISDs.
I bet Generation Tech won’t respond to this
Your bet is correct.
I agree with your assessment of this Republic design and the distinction of the Republic Navy being a wartime navy and the Imperial Navy being a peacetime/territory holding navy. I wonder how many ISD 38 Arquitens could defeat? Same production cost, similar manpower and resource use as well.
Can I just point out Alan pronounces everything horribly wrong
Just completed a game of Star Wars Armada after a long break.
Used 6 of those babies split into 2 divisions with Thrawn in command of the squadron... Lets just say they quickly stripped the shields off a winged MC80 in 1 turn
I would agree, but add in some Vindicator Heavy Cruisers (the ship whose hull was the basis for the Interdictor) for some increased firepower where needed. I mean, a Vindicator could be configured to carry as many Ties as a ISD... just doesn't have quite as much firepower, but still more than enough to deal with most of the ships the Rebellion could field
Pot plant at 1.15 white Circular pot, black stand, indoor broad leaf house plant.. I finally nailed the pause lol
A mix of Aquitens and Broadside cruisers works good in EAW canon story mod, sadly the aquitens moves in range of its turbolaser so I only fire missiles with the broadsides and get rid of fighters with the aquitens.
If you could fire missiles without coming closer it would be the perfect ship for all fleets.
Four words: LORONAR STRIKE-CLASS CRUISER. Modular enough to the point where it can be mass-produced and outfitted for different mission profiles. Destructive enough for most jobs.
Yas!
@@theuniversedoesntcare Good to see I'm not the only one who knows about the Strike Cruiser.