TV-shows and movies that are shown or mentioned in the video in order of appearance with timestamps: Love to hate you (00:00), Her private life (0:10), Psychopath Diary (0:15), Love in Spring (0:25), Glitch (0:40), Nevertheless (0:45), Love in Spring (1:00), Love in contract (1:04), Choco Milk Shake (1:10), The Eight Sense (1:13), Choco Milk Shake (Characters are from "How to ruin housewarming party" 1:19), True Beauty (1:26), Run on (1:32), Heavy Snow (1:46), Semantic Error (1:56), Mine (2:15), Strong Woman Do Bong Soon (2:30), Semantic Error (2:53), Glitch (3:06), Top Management (3:27), Kill me heal me (3:51), Mine (4:04), Love with flaws (4:24), Vincenzo (4:48), The Eight Sense (4:58), The boy next door (5:14), Vincenzo (7:00), Kill me Heal me (8:16), Strong Woman Do Bong Soon (8:30), Kill me heal me (8:38), Squid Game (8:49), Double Patty (9:18), Swarm (10:00), Narcos (10:03), Breaking Bad (10:06), Narcos (10:11), Squid Game (10:14), Choco Milk Shake (10:18), Strong Woman Do Bong Soon (10:24), Her private life (11:51), Glitch (12:12), Nevertheless (13:00), The Eight Sense (14:01), Semantic Error (14:21) Blueming (14:40), Somebody (15:19)
The thing is... nevertheless is essentially adult. It has so many steamy scenes but a simple kiss between the lesbian couple was too much? It makes me wonder.
Yes! Somebody has the exact same problem - it has essentially softcore p*rn strainght sex scenes, and all the lesbian couple gets to do it cuddle in oversized t-shirt (and this is the first time two women sleeping with each other was implied at all). K-dramas are super hesitant about showing queer women do anything even remotely suggestive, gay men get steamy kisses and makeout session in bed, lesbians are allowed to touch hands. I really hope this goes away, but at this point just having lgbt charachters that are complex is such a huge step!
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Yeah! That was what kept me going. But it totally felt like a blow when it turned out to be nothing but smiles and hugs. Their story was pretty sweet friends to lovers and we were robbed 😭
Funny, isn't it?Straight couples are given basically sex on platter but two women kissing makes people cover their innocent eyes from such "depravity"... The sad part is that this isn't even much of only a Kdrama issue. In my country, for example, while there might be LGBT representation and even couples in soap operas/novelas...sigh...it is _SO_ common for-whenever there is a LGBT couple-for them to ONLY kiss ONCE and even that is an "IF(they might kiss)". What?They showed straight couples making out?That isn't a problem. They showed violence?That isn't a problem. They showed the worst sides of humanity?That isn't a problem. They showed a LGBT couple kissing?OMG!That's awful!Let's all discuss this in social medias and demand for a censorship against such horrifying displays on TV! -.- Lord give me patience, because if you give me strength I'll kill those homophobes. The fact that they seem to ignore this is a hude display of ignorance and/or hipocrisy to me. Wish they stopped treating queer couples like they're the worst that can be shown in a show/soap opera, as if they're not deserving of being given the same attention and acceptance as straight couples in those works of fiction.
I agree with every single one. Especially with nevertheless, i felt like their relationship was very obvious and not a queerbaiting one. It's unfortunate that they had to cut out the kiss scene, but i was WAYY too happy to even care cause it was one of the best gay representations in kdramas in a while.
Yes!! The acting of the girls was on point and I found the progression of their love story natural and realistic... I was still happy for this representation of a lesbian couple in a kdrama!! I also skipped all the main couple scenes cause they were toxic af lol
Even though it's not a main character, I really loved the deptiction of Cho-Hui as a lesbian character in Hometown Cha-Cha-Cha. She doesn't get the romance storyline, that is true, but her love (or better, past love) for Hwa-Jeong is more than aknowleged and not used as a joke: it's really seriously taken, and more than gratiously accepted. She's an all around positive character, to the point that when she first appeared she was the "so perfect I can't hide my envy" character in Hwa-Jeong's arc. Another example I'd like to bring, to make this video really about the LGBT community (more than just LGB) is Hyun-Yi in Itaewon Class. It surprised me so much to see an openly and positively trans character in a k-drama!
Another two k-dramas with trans/gender non-conforming characters were The Killers Shopping list and Mad for each other, I am planning to make a separate video about how the plot handles these characters :)
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Nice! I can't wait to see it, the only other drama with an openly trans character I've seen was You Raise Me Up, but the representation there is a bit more on the joke-y and stereotypical side (with some bad case of dead naming from the main character that thankfully gets addressed), but is overall a positive character, demonstrating to be an amazing friend over and over again.
Yes! It annoys me when people mentioned SWDBS as one of their favourites and don't acknowledge how offensive the gay stereotyping is (and the repetitive and annoying toilet humour, but that's personal taste)
SWDBS is popular because Park Hyung Sik and Park Bo Young have such great chemistry, but the rest of the show is not that good to be honest. And both these actors have made good k-dramas since that are way better
@K-drama Research Institute Thing is every one of those not-great dramas on the left side of the chart is hyped to hell and back by actual lgbt people which adds another interesting dimension to things - what do audiences make of it, or what is the Queer, Feminist Affect of the drama. Also whether BL or not many of the most questionable and disappointing representations are created by lgbt people themselves, rather than the assumed “straight women and fangirls” and many of the best are made by women and people who are not men which complicates the idea good rep comes directly from personal identity. I saw someone comment that things need to be explicit and straightforward to pass the test and I must say I used to have that opinion, I think it’s a very western perspective and that one also reflects the dominant norm globally, but overwhelmingly they also tend to suffer from poor politics, are stereotypical in the most hegemonic representations of masculinity/femininity and lack any sense of meaningfulness beside homonormative platitudes sprinkled here and there. More and more I’m treasuring some of the coded/censored ones from Korea and China more than the superficial ones with lots of skinship but actually have nothing interesting or important to say. Great video!
I honestly didn't remember there being gay characters in the show until this video. To be fair, it was a long time ago when I watched this show. But the fact that it was forgettable and they still decided to add in a stereotypical gay character that doesn't add much to the plot other than being gay and being the butt of jokes for the sake of "comedy" is pretty harmful.
It shouldn't be that complicated. A good LGBT rep is the one that: Is Explicit; Is Straightforward; Is Taken seriously; Non stereotypical; Don't villanize the lgbt characters; That have LGBT characters in main roles in the story; That aren't background characters; That don't die (don't follow the bury your gays trope specifically); Aren't made to be fetishized. Any story that don't follow this basic rules don't have good representation. It can suffer from censorship, of course. But, it just explains the reason why isn't that good. The show does have good intentions, but it just not good enough.
@@kdramaresearchinstitute I suppose one other metric we could add-for additional gold stars, because these days, k-drama writers are already struggling to clear the bar as it is-is whether the character’s story arc is about something other than homophobia, transphobia, or other kinds of acceptance. All too often, it seems like the only thing writers can think to do with a queer character, especially a trans one, is to focus on how unaccepted they are and how much abuse and othering they get from everyone else. And yes, that might be true to life, but it can also reinforce the notion that acceptance isn’t possible and queerness is all about trauma.
@@stitchedwithcolor Yes, absolutely agree, good queer representation is when characters have stuff to do in the plot besides being gay. As important as coming out stories are, that is only one small part of the queer experience!
can we also talk about how in Prison Playbook almost every character gets a happy ending (or something close to it) except for the only gay character???
I loved this show but that was such a dissapointment... That and the only other main queer character was a villain that blackmailed and sexually harassed the main character... Even the guy that attempted to KILL the main character, and almost ruined his prospetive career, got forgiven and a happier ending... Make it make sense!
"Mine" also has a lesbian main character, she's married to a man but she comes out to him and it's taken respectfully. even has a little love story of how she gets back with the girl she used to date as a teenager.
So a while ago I watched vincenco because it was very loved and popular so I was even more disappointed that it was actually treating homosexuality so horribly! I was less mad about them making the villian gay but how they made vincenco act so disgusted towards a man that just wants to find love.. he really acted as if it was so disturbing to see a man that likes men and that it's so abnormal and that he is definitely SOOOO straight. It made me so angry honesty! After finishing vincenco I happened to watch Her Private Life next and this made me realize the contrast of the handling with lgbtq even more.. well even tho it was queerbaiting because the girls weren't actually together and it was just a misunderstanding I still liked that they really respected it to be gay and didn't find it weird at all and the male lead really just wanted to help the girls in a conservative society! I really felt that they just wanted to show support and that's great!
Absolutely aggree! Vincenzo was so disgusted that he has to flirt with a man, like dude chill. I actually really liked that show and that episode, I just wish he didn't protest so much. Her Private Life is an interesting case, because it is queerbaitign and making joke out of the lesbian misunderstanding, but the joke is not "what if they were a couple", the joke is that Ryan misinterpreted their friendship. But he is supportive and makes sure she isn't outed. Once the misunderstanding is cleared she doesn't go "Ew, why would you think that?!", and actually thanks him for being such a considerate ally. I think this is an example of acceptable queerbaiting, because it handles the topic with respect.
Also, why couldn't Vincenzo just get the man's abuse victims/ past lovers to tell him exactly what the guy likes to help nail his ass? it's telling how the wronged gay men are the only ones who never get to help avenge themselves compared to several straight characters.
Not a kdrama but a Korean movie called ''the handmaiden'' did really well with lesbian representation, you should do a video on that movie, one of my favorite movie of all time.
Oh, I know that movie, it is very good! verilybitchie made a pretty good video about this movie and how male-gaze centric it is and now I can't unsee it
There are many k-dramas where I sometimes feel invalid in seeing gay subtext (might be due to heavy censoring), and I don't know if it's really there or if it's my imagination. Examples include: The Devil Judge, School 2013, Beyond Evil, Navillera, Strangers from Hell, Psychopath Diary, The King: Eternal Monarch, At a Distance Spring Is Green, Weak Hero Class 1, All of Us Are Dead (some queerbating-ish moments between Cheongsan and Suhyeok)... the list just goes on and on. If I were to place some of these on the chart, I'd say -> The Devil Judge, this drama belongs somewhere in a half meaningful and quite censored spot, Gaon and Yohan have such a palatable chemistry, and if I'm not mistaken the drama was originally written with a romance between the two male leads. But then we for some reason suddenly turn Gaon's friendship with Soohyun into a heterosexual romance even though he had never considered it before? Ugh. Yohan's few heterosexual scenes with Sunah feel more appropriate(?) because he is not attracted to her, it is very one-sided the whole time. -> Strangers from Hell, in the middle, more on exploitative side and open (I guess? The predatory nature of Moonjo and him making advances/calling Jongwoo babe is kind of exploitative, no? But at the same time their characters are fleshed out so it's hard to determine for me.) -> Psychopath Diary, slightly more open and maybe even more exploitative than Strangers from Hell? Quite similar in the subtext side of things at least. -> School 2013, for a k-drama from 2012 aimed at teenagers, it feels really modern and open to interpretation because there's NO explicit romance, heterosexual nor homosexual (and if I remember correctly no making fun of anything suggesting homosexuality, it's been a while since I saw this drama fully though so I might be wrong). Anyways, anyone watching can see Namsoon and Heungsoo's chemistry and the moments between them feel very domestic. I guess it could be that they just are that affectionate as friends but I feel like some scenes in the drama wanted to show that even the people around them suspect them...I DON'T KNOW. Well I'd place it far right (meaningful) and around 3rd or 4th row from below. This is already a long ass comment but I still want to touch on representation which is much more tangible. -> Moment at Eighteen, it feels tastefully done while still including some realistic homophobia like Hwi Young saying to Oh Je that it's fine as long as he doesn't drag him in it and whatever. Also, Oh Je never finds love so slight minus. I'd place it in mid-open and on the right side, not totally far-right but close. -> Reply 1997, it's been a while since I watched this but as far as I can remember, this was a REALLY good depiction for 2012 and I didn't really have any complaints. Joonhee never finds love but his crush on a man is explicitly stated so I'd say it's mid/near center open and quite meaningful since the characters are fleshed out. -> Light On Me, this drama felt a bit fantasy-ish like True Beauty, but I think it still had its very realistic moments in between. I don't have much else to say, and since this is a more light-hearted drama I'd place it slightly less meaningful and I can't decide if it's maximum open or slightly under since the kiss was more like a peck, but they were really open about the homosexual aspect in other ways. Lastly a shout out to the ultimate queerbaiting dramas of all time, all crossdressing dramas where the man turns out to be a woman and poof! YAY it's not gay! It's like the writers are saying that "it was a girl this whole time so it's okay!" which is so annoying. I still haven't watched Coffee Prince, The King's Affection or actually any drama including crossdressing because the trope is so annoying to me. I don't even know where to place these dramas on the scale... The only outlier for me is the recent drama Under The Queen's Umbrella which includes a really beautiful story with a (in the queer eye at least) trans female character. It is kind of ambiguous and I frankly don't really want to call it crossdressing due to the fact that the character seems to be trans but it's again only implied. It is done in a really clever way I must say, since it's historical you really have to censor it to keep it true to the time period.
Under queens umbrella, the most emotional scene was with the transgender son... It was great. But for the true transgender representation I would go wit " Go Ms Go", i have seen anything like that across the cultures...
I was afraid people would be bored by the chart, but I think UA-cam showed the video to the right people :D Glad this channel found it's way into your feed
Great video. This may be slightly off-topic but.. I really hope we see more casual LGBTQ rep in Kdrama. I feel like a lot of ‘good rep’ comes from Kdramas which are marketed as BLs or GLs etc so obviously people are expecting LGBTQ rep and they’re the ones who are watching it. Whereas, if they made a kdrama which casually had an LGBTQ character or couple but still had a larger plot (not involved with them being a couple), then we could begin to see better casual LGBTQ representation
Yes, absolutely! We are starting to see more of that, so I think the trend it to casually include LGBT characters. Some of the k-dramas that did that: Run On, Love in Contract, Love with flaws. Run on also has an asexual character, it is not a major part of the plot, just casually mentioned several times. The killers shopping list, Itaewon class, Mad for each other and You raise me up have trans characters. These are not perfect, but it is nice to see the casual inclusion of trans characters who the audience is supposed to root for! I am optimistic, I think there will be more good LGBT representation in k-dramas in the future, the screenwriters and producers are just trying to ease into it.
this video was super interesting and i love the chart you came up with. sometimes i feel like 'queerbaiting' is just not a useful term at all. because usually its either stories that are literally offensive (so not exactly 'baiting' anyone) or could not have a kiss for whatever reason. it also seems like people often accuse shows of queerbaiting due to some feeling of being owed a plot by the authors/showrunners/etc. sometimes just subtext is as gay as the text being explicit! so i love that you are adding some more nuance to the conversation, and showing how even 'unconfirmed' relationships can still be positive
That is such a good point about writers not "owing" us a definitive romantic resolution. In real life people also often have sexual tension or chemistry that doesn't lead to any physical contact and dating, and a lot of people are also not super sure about their labels and how to describe their sexuality, and yet we somehow expect fictional characters to be 100% clear about these things. I am thinking of Psychopath Diary for example, a k-drama in which the main character has really good chemistry with every other actor. He and the female lead are kinda flirty with each other and it seems like there is budding romance, but the story never goes there, they are just friends. Nobody thinks they were robbed or baited because the plot didn't go there. Obviously there is a difference there because queer romances historically are underrepresented and there is a ton of straight romances, but I don't think queerbaiting is necessarily a bad thing. Her Private life for example has a bit of a queerbaiting plotline that is not negative. The male lead thinks that the female lead and her bestie are a lesbian couple, which leads to hilarious misunderstandings. But he is actually a really supportive ally while he thinks they are dating and helps them out. Once the misunderstanding is cleared the female lead doesn't go "eew, I am not gay", she is actually thanks him for being so supportive and they end up in a mature and wholesome relationship. His reaction to the queerbaiting plot line was a green flag. This shouldn't be the only type of representation, but I don't think this is bad writing.
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Interesting! I think one of my takeaways from this video is that, since the characters are made up and not real people, we have to think of the representations of their sexuality as saying something in particular, or working to develop meaning. So even the relationships that don't look exactly how irl gay relationships do can still say something nuanced and interesting. Same goes for you example of Her Private Life. Something I was wondering while watching this video, and reading your reply, is what to do about the matter of camp and/or the reclimation of homophobic characters. I have not seen a lot of kdramas, and I don't know much about Korean gay culture, but speaking as an American who loves old film (meaning, lots of homophobic depictions of gay people) sometimes the homophobic depictions are still beloved by gay people. Like even gay villains that aren't written to be nuanced (as you mention you enjoy gay villains if they are written well in the vid) can still be very fun and interesting. I think an example would be the gay villains of Hitchcock's films, specifically Strangers on a Train or Rope. They are outwardly problematic depictions of gay men, but there is still something about them that is intriguing to gay people. I wonder if there are analogous cases in Korean media? If so, I wonder where this might fit on your axis (if at all)? Just curious haha! Also btw I'm so glad UA-cam reccomended you, after watching your video on Semantic error I binged like 50% of it last night, and will finish it today once I get home. Thank you for your great videos!!
Hmm, I am not ware of any reclaimed queer characters from Korean media. The thing is k-dramas have started including positive depictions of lgbt chacters around 3-4 years ago, and k-dramas with the problematic characters are all around 10-12 years old, there is not that much before that. I am not sure all of this is long ago enough to reclaim a character, I have seen a ton of shipping and headcanon gays in k-dramas tho. Comparing Korean media to old Hollywood is also hard because of the timeline. The US already had a thriving film industry in the 30s, 40s and 50s which only thrived and became bigger since, but Korea was dealing with colonization, wars and a lot of political unrest in that time. South Korea was a poor country under a military dictatorship until the late 80s and a had a ficancial crisis int he 90s. The 90s and 2000s is when the film/TV industry really blossomed and became internationally popular and Korea rapidly became a rich country, so most of the media is from this century. I feel like this isn't enough time to start reframing old media? I am not sure though, my Korean is not good enough to read the Korean hot takes.
I still remember how in Sweet Revenge 2 there was. A storyline about Rok Hee’s friend being jealous and passive over her and I thought it was a storyline about the girl having a crush on Rok Hee, but they just said they were friends. Also, I remember when the little sister had a crush on Rok Hee, I thought it would be that she had a crush on a girl, but she only had the crush bc she thought she was a boy.
Omg I was so rooting for smth to happen between Rok Hee and her friend (even just a confession which could or could not have rejection later on) but nothing happened 💀
i've made this youtube channel my whole personality for the past 3 days. please keep up the amazing work! you have no idea how much you are contributing to the education the new generation needs. you got all our support. stay wirh us
Thank you so much, your comment means so much to me! I promise I am working on more videos and I am also planning to upload videos more often, so stay tuned, a lot more is coming
This was absolutely amazing, but I don’t agree with your take on Squid Game. That VIP coming onto the cop and forcing him to service him doesn’t mean “he’s just gay and being villanized by it”, but it’s a look on reality cause you have powerful business magnates that hide their sexualities, who are awful people and think their power can buy them what they want. I don’t think that was offensive. And it was relevant to the plot because that’s how the cop got information on what he was investigating… At least from what I remember. I think it could have fell under “exploitative”, maybe?
I think it is a bit early to tell whether he got some useful information from that VIP, because season 2 didn't happen yet and we don't know what happens to the cop. As far as season 1 goes the gay assault scene could be edited out without changing the plot, because he doesnt do anything with that information, escapes, get caught and falls off the cliff. It depends on whether in season 2 he does do something meaningful with the evidence. The majority of what he found out was through observation and from breaking into the room with all the documents. I think it still falls on the offensive side of the chart, because nobody feeels represented by that character, he is one dimensional and predatory, he doesn't really fit into any other category?
I am a Korean viewer, and while watching Korean dramas, I often saw scenes highlighting the bromance between the main male lead and the sub-male lead. (Dobong-soon, goblin, etc.) I think the case of dealing with queer without such seriousness is to meet the needs of viewers or to sublimate it into laughter. (This is just my assumption) For the bromance scenes: Women are the main domestic consumers of Kdramas. Except for trending dramas or some male-oriented dramas (political dramas, action dramas, etc.), most viewers are women. In fact, female-oriented dramas account for a high proportion of Korean media. (For my standard) I think scenes that seem to express bromance, or homosexuality in kdramas are probably to meet their demands. In Korea, majority consumer of GL and BL are women. For the comedic scenes: I think the use of homosexuals as laughter codes, such as Dobong-soon and Kill Me Heal Me, is just because the writer lacks understanding or consideration for LGBTQ people. (As you know, Korea is not lgbt-friendly) Anyway, I hope there will be more movies or dramas that deal with LGBTQ seriously in Korea. I would recommend some Korean queer movies: 2005 film King and the Clown 2008 film Frozen flowers 2014 film A girl at my door 2016 film The handmaiden 2017 film The Mercility 2017 film Jane 2019 films Moonlit Winter
I am surprised that you did not mention the bi-coded character in gender-bending dramas like Love in Moonlight, The King's Affection, and Coffee Prince. I will say that Lee Yeong from Love in the Moonlight would fall under the censored and exploitative side because the story hints at a possible attraction but immediately reveals that the love interest is a girl. Choi Han-gyeol from Coffee Prince is censored and meaningful because it allows the character to question his sexuality and the concept of love, but I would say that because it is set in modern times, it does not allow the character to identify as bisexual. The King's Affection I would say that it is a bi-representation because Jung Ji-woon falls in love with a man who he does not know is a woman and has a crush on a woman that saves him ( they are the same person) so that gender does not matter to him and the story agrees with that. I would put him next to the couple from Nevertheless, because he is unable to use a label( bisexual or pansexual), so his sexuality is censored.
I I actually haven't finished any of the gender bender k-dramas, but I am planning to make a video sometime in the future about the queerness of this genre and how it is a straight friendly way to explore homo/bi-sexuality in a k-drama, as long as there is a reveal "actually they are straight, don't worry" at the end. This genre seems to give alot of space to exploring homosexuality in a way that doesn't get critisized by conservative viewers. I think there is a lot to explore there! I will keep you comment in mind for that video :)
thanks for making this video! i think your chart is wonderfully made and i will prob use it in the future for my own judgment :)) i was unsure whether "The Boy Next Door" is problematic or not when i watched it. feel a little bad enjoying it as a queer person (with the other shows i don't feel as bad because what makes me enjoy those shows is separated from their gay representations). well, at least TBND isn't openly homophobic and laughter+acceptance (while still exoticizing) is still much better than the predatory trope for laughs... i can sorta forgive Wooshik's character telling the gay couple not to date openly, because he was worried Mina - the girl who was dumped by one of those boys - would see them and get hurt, which is a fair reason. but i do agree that the show is made for straight audiences and during that story, we as the audience are geared to empathize with Mina, not the gay couple, so that's not gay friendly enough for sure. kdrama writers are definitely more into deep female friendships these days though, making it just slightly lesbian enough for hetero norms (2521, Little Women, ...). but i guess to truly get a good representation, we still have to look at non-mainstream media.
I think the benefit of the doubt we can give that show is: it was well-intended. They clearly tried making a funny lighthearted show about a taboo topic. We can appreciate the intent and the joke delivery while acknowledging this show is not peak gay-representation :) That show came out in 2017 and k-dramas have moved on, the more recent queer characters are more complex and less one-dimensional!
excellent analysis. i was wondering where Run On fell on this scale. it has a supporting role of a boy who is friends with one ml, and a fl realises he loves him as a man. she respects it and it is treated well although the gay character doesn't get any progression with anyone. she also apologises to him cause she told her family she was a lesbian so as to avoid pressure to married and focus on her career. she realizes that actual queer people face discrimination so she shouldn't use that identity where it suits her. it also has a canonically asexual character who enters a relationship with these parameters, which i thought was neat. though i love kdramas and disecting korean culture, i am appauled by both the depictions of queer characters and the lack of them. we see signs of change as those you analysed, but i hope sooner than later cause i want to enjoy my dramas wholeheartedly, not ignore their red flags
Thank you for asking this, I initially wrote, but then scrapped a part of the video about Run On. I am actually not sure what to do with that drama, maybe put it somewhere in the middle, or towards the right side in the middle? It is definitely not exploitative and very meaningful and tasteful, but also kinda not meaningful enough to be all the way on the right side? Because there is very little screen time spent on this and it is at the very end of the k-drama in episode 14 and he is not a major character. They do openly discuss his sexuality, but he also doesn't get a relationship and doesn't get to do anything gay and these subplots get very little screentime, so how open is it really? Feels toned down. I did appreciate that there was asexual representation and a gay character tho. I feel like the middle of the chart is for those k-dramas that re neither here nor there.
I love Blueming sooooo much because, like you said, it's about how the main character's relationship happened to be gay and it's a beautiful complex story. You forgot how the main character's sister (who's in highschool) literally falls in love with a colleague from his brother's college and that was so adorable! A season 2 was announced so I'm sure they may go deeper with that little arc when the sister is of age. Somebody was also amazing.
Your content is always SO well done, it really shows how much effort you put into not only the research but also the editing and storytelling of your videos, keep it up!💞
Hmm, I believe True Beauty, Strong Women Do-Bong-Soo (at least for the main male actor and the other guy being all close) and All of Us Are Dead had what people call "fanservice", haha.
I haven't watched that one, but people usually say it it done very tastefully. From your description in the middle on the right side, close to Nevertheless sounds about right :)
Is it really sangchu’s sexuality that he’s struggling to accept? I got the impression that it wasn’t so much that he didn’t want to be queer, but that he wants to avoid anything as untidy and unpredictable as love. He’s about as uncomfortable with Jihye’s attraction to him as Jaeyoung’s; Jihye is just easier to refuse because his own feelings aren’t in the way. I *suppose* you could argue that that was him longing to be aro-ace and that his struggle was to accept that he *has any sexuality at all*, but it seems like there are better, clearer ways we could characterize it, since the phrase “struggling to accept your sexuality” is generally used to mean internalized homophobia.
Hmm, interesting point! I also got ace/aro vibes from him, like he never thought about sexuality before. There is a scene after the "almost kiss" in the theater prop room, where Sangwoo is googling stuff like "hormonal disorder" and "what's wrong with my body" - in the webtoon the scene is more in your face and what he is actually trying to figure out is why he got a boner when they almost kissed. And he is confused about what is happening and shuts down. So I think it is fair to say he is still figuring out his sexuality as the story progresses. I think we might have different definitions of "struggling to accept your sexuality", I don't think it has to do anything with internalized homophobia and I never thought that this is how people use that phrase. I think "struggling to accept" is more of a wide and abstract concept. A lot of people have never been homophobic and have families and friends that would be accepting and still struggle with admitting it to themselves. It can take a long time to untangle heteronormativity and figure out sexuality, it is stressful. At least it was like that for me, I never struggled with internalized homophobia, but it is stressful and a struggle to figure it out :)
I saw quite a lot of myself in this character and I think he struggled more with intimacy than with his sexuality even though they are linked. His other interpersonnal relationship (or lack thereof ) through the series is kind of congruant with this idea that the root of his struggles with his own sexuality came from fear of intimacy, opening to others, being vulnerable and being involved with others.
@@mathilda2537 Agreed. Sangwoo comes off to me as someone who doesn't really form friendships very much and may not connect emotionally to anyone outside his family. If he were demisexual, it absolutely would make sense that he's never felt much sexual interest in others, because his discomfort with emotional intimacy would prevent those attractions from forming (until jaeyoung managed to catapult himself into sangwoo's lap).
I think the sexual tension between the two male leads in The Devil Judge is quite obvious and of course very sexy. Bromance and Mr. Queen were fun and generally respectful.
7:28 i don’t think it’s meant to be in a “he’s bad because he’s gay”, he’s just a bad person who happens to be gay. the story would be quite similar if he was still straight etc so i don’t really see it as exploitative
I though about this a lot, because I actually do like this character, so I have mixed feelings about it. think it it exploitative because the story makes a joke out of his crush on Vincenzo. Everyone else in the show is evil because they are greedy, or murder people, but none of the straight characters are evil because they abuse their partners, only the gay character is. In the plot his father is a r*pist, but he is not actually in the story, he is just mentioned. Like father like son, I guess? I do think you have a great point tho :)
@@kdramaresearchinstitute i get both sides and kinda agree on both but i’m also tired of the thing we’re people get man when a villain happens to be gay as if gay people can’t be horrible people. as long as the character isn’t played AS MUCH for laughs as like in doo bongsoon (which is still one of my favourites) i feel okay with it.
@@kdramaresearchinstitute besides the force straight lover ending that itself was good I had good laughs watching it, but king end up w queen (not the queen w soul of a guy) entire drama was king falling in love w male in queen body so the ending was to pleased straight audience..
Mine is one of my favorite kdramas and I would love to hear you talk about it 😊 I saw the included scenes in that video and I think the queer relationship is well portrayed, taking the conservative and pressured environment they are in into account
This comment got wayys to long. Sorry about that. I haven't watched that many kdrama (maybe so far 30?) and i have yet to watch a romance focused queer story (many are on my watchlist, but i mostly watch thriller/mystery or suspense, which usually only has queer subtext instead of actual queer characters) but i did encounter a few canon queer characters and a few censored or implied queer stories. For example The Killer's Shopping List has a trans woman as side character. At first i was sceptical (spoilers ahead) she gets accused of being a serial killer as the mc kinda jumps to conclusions fast, but it gets resolved quickly and she becomes closer with the characters and by the end of the show she has come out to the local neighbourhood and everyone uses she/her pronouns for her and one character even wants make up tips from her at some point! The only problem i could see with the portrail is that the actor is a man, which i guess is to expected as i doubt sk has many outed trans actresses. But it was done respectfully and the character even has a trans flag in the middle of her room! Another one i've seen that has canon queer characters is Move to Heaven (spoilers ahead again) it's a episodic show about trauma cleaners, so the couple in question was sadly involved with death. Soo-Hyun is a doctor and broke up with his musician boyfriend Ian because of his homophobic parents (and probably some internalized homophobia or fear of being gay in south korea probably) he regretted the break up so he bought two rings as a sort of marriage proposal and was planning to make it up to Ian. But before that could happen he was killed in the Hospital. The episode ends really bittersweet as Ian eventually gets the rings and wears both of them to honor Soo-Hyun. He even plays the first song he ever played his boyfriend (i cried almost every episode for this show, but this one really had me bawling xD) The Merciless was sadly put down by censorship, i heard the director openly addmited that he intended that the two main characters where gay for eachother. He apparently also retweets BL tweets?? Dude has no chill haha. Also, this guy directed Kill Bokson which came out a while ago and THAT movie has a gay character (the daughter of the Protagonist) Mr Queen (again spoilers) is probably the next closest thing to canon i've started to watch. Cook from the modern era lands in the body of a queen that lived 200 something years ago, he sorta eventually falls in love with the King and Vise Versa. The OG Queen comes eventually back but it's kinda obvious that she and the cook are reincarnations from eachother, so does it really matter?? The chinese original had apparently more open bisexuality where the Queen is making out with other women. The ending was kinda sad as the King basically fell in love with the quirky version of the Queen aka the one possessed by a man, but the poor og Queen isn't like that at all.. everyone involved should have gotten a happy ending, but in my eyes this didn't happen. Also can't post this comment without mentioning Beyond Evil (probably my fav shows ever) like, some the lines in this show are almost unbeliveable. Examples: calling eachother cute, getting called out as a "couple" by several characters, One of these fuckers says "so you plan to ram your horns into me and rip me to pieces, is that it?" while smirking. His Partner then also smiles and says YES. Also there is a scene right out of a cheesy romance, when in episode two we get a close up of the younger character as he watches the local dilf in the rain who gets light on by sunlight. In slowmo... for several seconds... yeah no there is something going on here and it's not family love if you ask me xD.
First of all: thank you for taking the time to watch the video and write such a long comment, I really appreciate it! I started this channel because I wanted to have conversations about k-dramas, so this is perfect! I am actually planning to make a video mentioning The Killers Shopping list, I think this is a quite a new emerging lgbt-trope. I am not a fan of the whole "what if the trans character is dangerous" thing, but I will be making a video about this in the future. The thing about casting a guy for this role though... I know this is a topic in US centric media, but Korea doesn't really have any openly lgbt actors or singers, and coming out is career suicide, so I don't think we should be expecting Korean actors to play their gender/attraction they have in real life. We don't know if any of these actors are straight or cis... Move to heaven I haven't watched yet, but I am planning, since it has queer characters, I wanna see how this show handled the topic, but sounds like the "bury your gays" trope. Haven't watched The Merciless either, but it has Siwan and if you are saying it was originally gay, I am now interested in it. The watchlist is getting longer :) And yes, Beyong Evil is super gay, their chemistry is insane. If one of them was a woman, they would have kissen 100%, but the writers chickened out, because it was two men. I am a bit torn, because on one hand this might be a bit queerbait-ish, but also: people and fictional characters are allowed to have gay encounters without having to define anything or come out. Oh, look at these two single men meeting at night in the basement to stand really close to each other. I don't know what was in the script, but I feel like Yeo Jin Goo and Shin Ha Kyun must have had conversations about them playing it as gay!
Mr Queen isn't exactly true he never really kissed any women he more or less would thirst over them but he ended up falling in love with the Emperor so it's actually a gay political comedy romance😓
This is a super interesting analysis! What do you think about Twenty Five Twenty One? Would you call what they did in the first few episodes with hee-do and yu-rim queerbaiting? When I was watching this, me and my friend both genuinely believed they were giving off lesbians vibes. Hee-do would watch and admire yu-rim a lot and tell her she likes her, even going as far as sharing scenes resembling main kdrama couple tropes between each other. Also they would chat online annonimously, those scenes framed as soulmates vibes (so much that at first it leads the audience to think the person behind the screen is the male lead/love interest) but all they did was culminate in them being best friends.
Sports just inheretly encourage gay vibes in many ways. Lots of things you do in sports seems gay from the outside view, but from the inside view they can or can not be, and people don't care much which one it is. At least that is my personal experince. So I didn't think about the dynamic between HeeDo and YuRim as queerbaiting when I watched it. From doing sports on a high level, for me the story could have gone either way and I wouldn't have bat an eye, because both would have been believable. But maybe I am relying too much on personal experince and the way I liked the portrayal of how doing sport at an ambitious level in a unknown sport is shown in a very real way so I'm not spot the queerbaiting?
Nevertheless was so annoying and i only watched it for the lesbian couple, they were so cute and had great chemistry. They were the only reason i put up with that horrible drama.
wait, are BL's not considered K-dramas? Aren't KBLs just a subgenre of k-drama? I guess it depends on how narrow or general your definition of "k-drama" is :)
They can be both. I watch a lot more Japanese dramas than K-dramas (personal preference and language ability), but I consider JBLs both a part of the BL genre and the general J-drama umbrella. BL (or GL) is like any other genre, like detective stories or romcoms.
Boy Next Door was problematic af, but the episode where their friend comes out of the closet was hilarious. The male leads feeling guilty about breaking up their gay friend and his (female) ex and trying to avoid it being known had me in tears. Not sure this would be considered queer baiting because the kdrama didn’t take it too far, but I really believed that in Search: WWW Cha Hyeon and Song Gakyeong were interested in each other romantically. Cha Hyeon was giving Song Gakyeong puppy dog eyes, looking longingly at her, and I’m supposed to believe that they are just friends?
The Fabulous (2022) should be in the same spot with Nevertheless. One of the protagonists is openly gay. At the end, he seemingly found a new love, but the plot didn't elaborate his love story.
The kiss from nevertheless got cut but the entirety of the handmaiden exists like hello? I guess lesbian intimacy can only be shown on tv when its something men can get off of but the masses arent ready for two girls kissing bc its not sexual r u serious
I wonder what you think about Drink Now Work Later. (Spoiler) ........ According to me there were too many subtle clues of two of three main leads being in romantic love with one another, but in the end they all have implied straight relationships. Also warning you may or may not want to watch the show. It has some very questionable straight s*x scene where one of the party is completly passed out and doesnt remember anything. However it is all played as a ha ha joke.
I started watching it, but dropped it after one episode, I didn't really get the show - so I can't really comment on that. If you thought there were some queer vibes, then other people probably noticed it too! But that scene sounds horrible, might have to watch it for some future video essay tho!
I watched the show too. Mostly the first season but the time Jigoo and Jiyeon had a big argument, I felt some of those subtle clues. I felt it even more when in the scene where Jigoo rushed to Jiyeon’s side after the SOS alert (or something like that). I thought I was just being delusional or reading too deeply into the show but at some point I really thought that they had a romantic history or some sort of underlying romantic feelings that was shrouded by their friendship. From the beginning of the show Jigoo appeared to me as a queer character. The writers even had a student of hers come out to as lesbian to her and express their feelings for her. At this point, I thought they were hinting at the queerness of her character but when they paired her with that dude, I was completely baffled. To me, it just made no sense.
What do you think of Record of Youth? I don’t think it was offensive but it might’ve been exploitative. There was a very famous designer who invited the main character to his house and tried to come onto him in exchange of sponsoring him as a model and he said no, very respectfully. That ended awfully cause the designer killed himself but I believe it was exploitative…
fellow subscribers, i have a question that's been occupying my mind: do you think bl actors who do not explicitly come out as non-straight are queerbaitors? i don't want to misjudge or offend anyone. it's just something i've been thinking about and i'd like to know other opinions or points of view on this: do all bl/gl actors need to match the sexuality of the characters they're playing for better, more meaningful, and valid representation?
Queerbaiting as a term exclusively refers to fictional characters in media, an actor can't queerbait, a TV show or a movie can. But the question of whether straight actors are allowed to play LGBT character is still a good question, it's just would not be called "queerbaiting" :) A question which I think is not relevant to Korean media in the same way it is in the US or other countries. Korea is still a conservative and homophobic society, there are like 3 or 4 examples of celebrities who came out in the whole industry. Statistically a lot of beloved actors are probably queer, but they can't come out in Korea, that would be career suicide. We actually don't know if they are straight, they might be in the closet and we can't expect them to come out. Also this attitude towards actors "you are scamming us unless you come out" is kind of heteronormative. Why do we assume everyone one is straigth unless they come out? We can assume everyone is bi, unless they state otherwise, lol But let's imagine a world where homophobia is over an everyone can safely come out without any consequences - I don't think actors need to match the characters they play. The job of an actor/actress is to play someone who they are not by definition. It is only a problem when straight actors get all the queer roles, and queer actors don't get any straight roles... What do you think?
@anggarak I know. Same here. I mean, I won't blame them because they probably have their conditions/situations, and we'd probably understand that they might have valid reasons if we were in their shoes because every queer person or even an ally deals with different obstacles. But, considering all of that, my feelings as the queer audience are also valid. I just hope that the artists who give us good quality art to enjoy and find meaning in representing our community, won't ever /regret/ doing so because in that way the point is just gone.
Yeah, if an actor plays a queer character I automatically assume they are an ally. They don't have to come out, but they need to support the community!
@anggarak you don't have to. i'm actually so glad & thankful that the kbl industry has contributed sm. also your chosen family is always here, never feel lonely💕
7:17 i don't agree with this. Does every lgbt representation have to be in the characters who are morally good? Does being gay mean you are also a good person? No, obviously it doesn't. The sexual orientation of the guy shouldn't matter because he is a bad guy, and there are people who are out there who abuse their partners, regardless of their orientation. I guess what you are trying to say is that lgbt characters are being villainized, and that's not right, but in real life, there certainly are gay people who do bad stuff like this. And for that, i think they are being portrayed in a more natural light (dont get me wrong, im obviously not saying that it's more natural for a gay person to be evil or something) just how straight people usually are. We don't say 'oh he has murdered someone because he is straight', right?
I know exactly what you mean and I do love a gay villain, I can identify with that! Gay characters don't have to be boring perfect angels, they should be allowed to be messy and complex, which is a point I make later in the video with some examples of characters who are great villains that happen to be gay. But in these villains do bad stuff that has nothing to do with their homosexuality, in Vincenzo Min Seong is a villain because he is an abuser, all the other villains in this show are evil because they are greedy murderers. Gay men who are abusers are absolutely in the wrong and should be called out exactly as everyone else who does this, but portraying gays as a threat is the default trope in media. I actually think you and I are making the exact same point!
@@kdramaresearchinstitute oh thanks for clarifying that! and i agree completely with everything you've said iin the video. also, i love your video on eating disorders, i felt the same thing!
Спасибо большое за видео. Я ненавижу персонажа-гея в Сильной женщине..Это такой сборник стереотипов о гееях в одном персонаже. Такое ощущение, что сценаристам чем то насолили геи и они решили на них отыграться. Но,если честно квирбейтинг я тоже не люблю. Это тоже бывает оскорбительно.
Согласна! А я подумала что сценарист не знает как ведут себя геи в реальной жизни и никогда об этом не задумывался. Как далеко всетаки прогресс прошёл с 2016 года в дорамах, теперь сценаристы геев (к счастью) так уже не пишут.
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Выход на международный уровень тоже сказывается. Всё-таки в мире гомофобию не любят, мягко говоря. Есть ещё night flight хороший фильм и high heels мне нравится (хотя, без недостатков).
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Первый такой очень грустный и более реалистичный. Кстати, на счёт гомофобии. Есть один знаменитый ресторатор, которого перестали приглашать на ТВ, после "выхода из шкафа ". Это было лет 10 назад, сейчас он ведет свое шоу. Хон Сок Чон его зовут. Так что с гомофобией там очень и очень плохо. Зато очень популярны bl дорамы.
OMG, thank you so much for your long and well thought out comment, it really means a lot to me! ❤ I love it when people leave long comments, I want my video to be a in depth conversation about k-dramas. If people don't comment a lot then it feels like I am spending an insane amount of effort just creating videos that disappear into a void, but after comments like yours it feels like there is a point in me doing this! First of all, do not judge yourself for being cringe as a teenager, everyone roll their eyes looking back at their younger selves hot takes and tastes. We all have to go through those phases. If someone doesn't admit they used to be cringe, then they aren't growing as person. Imagine if someone said "oh no, I never thought anything stupid in my life" that would be such a red flag! I am actually planning to do a video essay about the rise of Korean BL's, so that recommendation is perfect, I haven't seen it yet! We love a k-drama that has a plot, where you can feel that the team who worked on it really wanted to make a good show and got the budget for it. Thank you for that recommendation, the show has a really high rating on Mydramalist. Of Jiwoong's k-dramas I have seen "Don't lie Rahee", that was was about eating disorders, hope he gets more cool roles!
TV-shows and movies that are shown or mentioned in the video in order of appearance with timestamps:
Love to hate you (00:00), Her private life (0:10), Psychopath Diary (0:15), Love in Spring (0:25), Glitch (0:40), Nevertheless (0:45), Love in Spring (1:00), Love in contract (1:04), Choco Milk Shake (1:10), The Eight Sense (1:13), Choco Milk Shake (Characters are from "How to ruin housewarming party" 1:19), True Beauty (1:26), Run on (1:32), Heavy Snow (1:46), Semantic Error (1:56), Mine (2:15), Strong Woman Do Bong Soon (2:30), Semantic Error (2:53), Glitch (3:06), Top Management (3:27), Kill me heal me (3:51), Mine (4:04), Love with flaws (4:24), Vincenzo (4:48), The Eight Sense (4:58), The boy next door (5:14), Vincenzo (7:00), Kill me Heal me (8:16), Strong Woman Do Bong Soon (8:30), Kill me heal me (8:38), Squid Game (8:49), Double Patty (9:18), Swarm (10:00), Narcos (10:03), Breaking Bad (10:06), Narcos (10:11), Squid Game (10:14), Choco Milk Shake (10:18), Strong Woman Do Bong Soon (10:24), Her private life (11:51), Glitch (12:12), Nevertheless (13:00), The Eight Sense (14:01), Semantic Error (14:21) Blueming (14:40), Somebody (15:19)
The thing is... nevertheless is essentially adult. It has so many steamy scenes but a simple kiss between the lesbian couple was too much? It makes me wonder.
Yes! Somebody has the exact same problem - it has essentially softcore p*rn strainght sex scenes, and all the lesbian couple gets to do it cuddle in oversized t-shirt (and this is the first time two women sleeping with each other was implied at all). K-dramas are super hesitant about showing queer women do anything even remotely suggestive, gay men get steamy kisses and makeout session in bed, lesbians are allowed to touch hands. I really hope this goes away, but at this point just having lgbt charachters that are complex is such a huge step!
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Yeah! That was what kept me going. But it totally felt like a blow when it turned out to be nothing but smiles and hugs. Their story was pretty sweet friends to lovers and we were robbed 😭
Funny, isn't it?Straight couples are given basically sex on platter but two women kissing makes people cover their innocent eyes from such "depravity"...
The sad part is that this isn't even much of only a Kdrama issue.
In my country, for example, while there might be LGBT representation and even couples in soap operas/novelas...sigh...it is _SO_ common for-whenever there is a LGBT couple-for them to ONLY kiss ONCE and even that is an "IF(they might kiss)".
What?They showed straight couples making out?That isn't a problem.
They showed violence?That isn't a problem.
They showed the worst sides of humanity?That isn't a problem.
They showed a LGBT couple kissing?OMG!That's awful!Let's all discuss this in social medias and demand for a censorship against such horrifying displays on TV!
-.- Lord give me patience, because if you give me strength I'll kill those homophobes.
The fact that they seem to ignore this is a hude display of ignorance and/or hipocrisy to me.
Wish they stopped treating queer couples like they're the worst that can be shown in a show/soap opera, as if they're not deserving of being given the same attention and acceptance as straight couples in those works of fiction.
I agree with every single one. Especially with nevertheless, i felt like their relationship was very obvious and not a queerbaiting one. It's unfortunate that they had to cut out the kiss scene, but i was WAYY too happy to even care cause it was one of the best gay representations in kdramas in a while.
Yes!! The acting of the girls was on point and I found the progression of their love story natural and realistic... I was still happy for this representation of a lesbian couple in a kdrama!! I also skipped all the main couple scenes cause they were toxic af lol
it's not the best but it's something rather than nothing I guess
Even though it's not a main character, I really loved the deptiction of Cho-Hui as a lesbian character in Hometown Cha-Cha-Cha. She doesn't get the romance storyline, that is true, but her love (or better, past love) for Hwa-Jeong is more than aknowleged and not used as a joke: it's really seriously taken, and more than gratiously accepted. She's an all around positive character, to the point that when she first appeared she was the "so perfect I can't hide my envy" character in Hwa-Jeong's arc.
Another example I'd like to bring, to make this video really about the LGBT community (more than just LGB) is Hyun-Yi in Itaewon Class. It surprised me so much to see an openly and positively trans character in a k-drama!
Another two k-dramas with trans/gender non-conforming characters were The Killers Shopping list and Mad for each other, I am planning to make a separate video about how the plot handles these characters :)
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Nice! I can't wait to see it, the only other drama with an openly trans character I've seen was You Raise Me Up, but the representation there is a bit more on the joke-y and stereotypical side (with some bad case of dead naming from the main character that thankfully gets addressed), but is overall a positive character, demonstrating to be an amazing friend over and over again.
Oh you are right, You Raise me Up had a trans character, I completely blocked out this show from my memory, gonna rewatch it!
Yes! It annoys me when people mentioned SWDBS as one of their favourites and don't acknowledge how offensive the gay stereotyping is (and the repetitive and annoying toilet humour, but that's personal taste)
SWDBS is popular because Park Hyung Sik and Park Bo Young have such great chemistry, but the rest of the show is not that good to be honest. And both these actors have made good k-dramas since that are way better
@@kdramaresearchinstitute absolutely agree, their chemistry is one of the best I've seen but the rest of it is not good
@K-drama Research Institute Thing is every one of those not-great dramas on the left side of the chart is hyped to hell and back by actual lgbt people which adds another interesting dimension to things - what do audiences make of it, or what is the Queer, Feminist Affect of the drama.
Also whether BL or not many of the most questionable and disappointing representations are created by lgbt people themselves, rather than the assumed “straight women and fangirls” and many of the best are made by women and people who are not men which complicates the idea good rep comes directly from personal identity.
I saw someone comment that things need to be explicit and straightforward to pass the test and I must say I used to have that opinion, I think it’s a very western perspective and that one also reflects the dominant norm globally, but overwhelmingly they also tend to suffer from poor politics, are stereotypical in the most hegemonic representations of masculinity/femininity and lack any sense of meaningfulness beside homonormative platitudes sprinkled here and there. More and more I’m treasuring some of the coded/censored ones from Korea and China more than the superficial ones with lots of skinship but actually have nothing interesting or important to say.
Great video!
I honestly didn't remember there being gay characters in the show until this video. To be fair, it was a long time ago when I watched this show. But the fact that it was forgettable and they still decided to add in a stereotypical gay character that doesn't add much to the plot other than being gay and being the butt of jokes for the sake of "comedy" is pretty harmful.
It shouldn't be that complicated. A good LGBT rep is the one that:
Is Explicit;
Is Straightforward;
Is Taken seriously;
Non stereotypical;
Don't villanize the lgbt characters;
That have LGBT characters in main roles in the story;
That aren't background characters;
That don't die (don't follow the bury your gays trope specifically);
Aren't made to be fetishized.
Any story that don't follow this basic rules don't have good representation. It can suffer from censorship, of course. But, it just explains the reason why isn't that good. The show does have good intentions, but it just not good enough.
It shouldn't be that complicated, and yet there are so few tv-shows that manage to do it right...
@@kdramaresearchinstitute I suppose one other metric we could add-for additional gold stars, because these days, k-drama writers are already struggling to clear the bar as it is-is whether the character’s story arc is about something other than homophobia, transphobia, or other kinds of acceptance. All too often, it seems like the only thing writers can think to do with a queer character, especially a trans one, is to focus on how unaccepted they are and how much abuse and othering they get from everyone else. And yes, that might be true to life, but it can also reinforce the notion that acceptance isn’t possible and queerness is all about trauma.
@@stitchedwithcolor Yes, absolutely agree, good queer representation is when characters have stuff to do in the plot besides being gay. As important as coming out stories are, that is only one small part of the queer experience!
can we also talk about how in Prison Playbook almost every character gets a happy ending (or something close to it) except for the only gay character???
I still fume about it till this day
YES PLEASE. I still love the drama but I remember I noticed this thing immediately
I loved this show but that was such a dissapointment... That and the only other main queer character was a villain that blackmailed and sexually harassed the main character... Even the guy that attempted to KILL the main character, and almost ruined his prospetive career, got forgiven and a happier ending... Make it make sense!
"Mine" also has a lesbian main character, she's married to a man but she comes out to him and it's taken respectfully. even has a little love story of how she gets back with the girl she used to date as a teenager.
yes, I would put Mine in the same spot as Nevertheless, it was very tasteful and meaningful, but toned down
So a while ago I watched vincenco because it was very loved and popular so I was even more disappointed that it was actually treating homosexuality so horribly! I was less mad about them making the villian gay but how they made vincenco act so disgusted towards a man that just wants to find love.. he really acted as if it was so disturbing to see a man that likes men and that it's so abnormal and that he is definitely SOOOO straight. It made me so angry honesty!
After finishing vincenco I happened to watch Her Private Life next and this made me realize the contrast of the handling with lgbtq even more.. well even tho it was queerbaiting because the girls weren't actually together and it was just a misunderstanding I still liked that they really respected it to be gay and didn't find it weird at all and the male lead really just wanted to help the girls in a conservative society! I really felt that they just wanted to show support and that's great!
Absolutely aggree! Vincenzo was so disgusted that he has to flirt with a man, like dude chill. I actually really liked that show and that episode, I just wish he didn't protest so much. Her Private Life is an interesting case, because it is queerbaitign and making joke out of the lesbian misunderstanding, but the joke is not "what if they were a couple", the joke is that Ryan misinterpreted their friendship. But he is supportive and makes sure she isn't outed. Once the misunderstanding is cleared she doesn't go "Ew, why would you think that?!", and actually thanks him for being such a considerate ally. I think this is an example of acceptable queerbaiting, because it handles the topic with respect.
@@kdramaresearchinstituteagree :)
Also, why couldn't Vincenzo just get the man's abuse victims/ past lovers to tell him exactly what the guy likes to help nail his ass? it's telling how the wronged gay men are the only ones who never get to help avenge themselves compared to several straight characters.
Not a kdrama but a Korean movie called ''the handmaiden'' did really well with lesbian representation, you should do a video on that movie, one of my favorite movie of all time.
Oh, I know that movie, it is very good! verilybitchie made a pretty good video about this movie and how male-gaze centric it is and now I can't unsee it
Yes great video idea!
There are many k-dramas where I sometimes feel invalid in seeing gay subtext (might be due to heavy censoring), and I don't know if it's really there or if it's my imagination. Examples include:
The Devil Judge, School 2013, Beyond Evil, Navillera, Strangers from Hell, Psychopath Diary, The King: Eternal Monarch, At a Distance Spring Is Green, Weak Hero Class 1, All of Us Are Dead (some queerbating-ish moments between Cheongsan and Suhyeok)... the list just goes on and on.
If I were to place some of these on the chart, I'd say
-> The Devil Judge, this drama belongs somewhere in a half meaningful and quite censored spot, Gaon and Yohan have such a palatable chemistry, and if I'm not mistaken the drama was originally written with a romance between the two male leads. But then we for some reason suddenly turn Gaon's friendship with Soohyun into a heterosexual romance even though he had never considered it before? Ugh. Yohan's few heterosexual scenes with Sunah feel more appropriate(?) because he is not attracted to her, it is very one-sided the whole time.
-> Strangers from Hell, in the middle, more on exploitative side and open (I guess? The predatory nature of Moonjo and him making advances/calling Jongwoo babe is kind of exploitative, no? But at the same time their characters are fleshed out so it's hard to determine for me.)
-> Psychopath Diary, slightly more open and maybe even more exploitative than Strangers from Hell? Quite similar in the subtext side of things at least.
-> School 2013, for a k-drama from 2012 aimed at teenagers, it feels really modern and open to interpretation because there's NO explicit romance, heterosexual nor homosexual (and if I remember correctly no making fun of anything suggesting homosexuality, it's been a while since I saw this drama fully though so I might be wrong).
Anyways, anyone watching can see Namsoon and Heungsoo's chemistry and the moments between them feel very domestic. I guess it could be that they just are that affectionate as friends but I feel like some scenes in the drama wanted to show that even the people around them suspect them...I DON'T KNOW. Well I'd place it far right (meaningful) and around 3rd or 4th row from below.
This is already a long ass comment but I still want to touch on representation which is much more tangible.
-> Moment at Eighteen, it feels tastefully done while still including some realistic homophobia like Hwi Young saying to Oh Je that it's fine as long as he doesn't drag him in it and whatever. Also, Oh Je never finds love so slight minus. I'd place it in mid-open and on the right side, not totally far-right but close.
-> Reply 1997, it's been a while since I watched this but as far as I can remember, this was a REALLY good depiction for 2012 and I didn't really have any complaints. Joonhee never finds love but his crush on a man is explicitly stated so I'd say it's mid/near center open and quite meaningful since the characters are fleshed out.
-> Light On Me, this drama felt a bit fantasy-ish like True Beauty, but I think it still had its very realistic moments in between. I don't have much else to say, and since this is a more light-hearted drama I'd place it slightly less meaningful and I can't decide if it's maximum open or slightly under since the kiss was more like a peck, but they were really open about the homosexual aspect in other ways.
Lastly a shout out to the ultimate queerbaiting dramas of all time, all crossdressing dramas where the man turns out to be a woman and poof! YAY it's not gay! It's like the writers are saying that "it was a girl this whole time so it's okay!" which is so annoying. I still haven't watched Coffee Prince, The King's Affection or actually any drama including crossdressing because the trope is so annoying to me. I don't even know where to place these dramas on the scale...
The only outlier for me is the recent drama Under The Queen's Umbrella which includes a really beautiful story with a (in the queer eye at least) trans female character. It is kind of ambiguous and I frankly don't really want to call it crossdressing due to the fact that the character seems to be trans but it's again only implied. It is done in a really clever way I must say, since it's historical you really have to censor it to keep it true to the time period.
HELP THIS IS SO LONG....
No such thing as a comment that is too long, thank you for watching the video and taking time to write the comment
Under queens umbrella, the most emotional scene was with the transgender son... It was great.
But for the true transgender representation I would go wit " Go Ms Go", i have seen anything like that across the cultures...
As soon as you brought out the chart, I knew I was in for a good time. Suscribed!
I was afraid people would be bored by the chart, but I think UA-cam showed the video to the right people :D Glad this channel found it's way into your feed
Great video. This may be slightly off-topic but.. I really hope we see more casual LGBTQ rep in Kdrama. I feel like a lot of ‘good rep’ comes from Kdramas which are marketed as BLs or GLs etc so obviously people are expecting LGBTQ rep and they’re the ones who are watching it. Whereas, if they made a kdrama which casually had an LGBTQ character or couple but still had a larger plot (not involved with them being a couple), then we could begin to see better casual LGBTQ representation
Yes, absolutely! We are starting to see more of that, so I think the trend it to casually include LGBT characters. Some of the k-dramas that did that: Run On, Love in Contract, Love with flaws. Run on also has an asexual character, it is not a major part of the plot, just casually mentioned several times. The killers shopping list, Itaewon class, Mad for each other and You raise me up have trans characters. These are not perfect, but it is nice to see the casual inclusion of trans characters who the audience is supposed to root for! I am optimistic, I think there will be more good LGBT representation in k-dramas in the future, the screenwriters and producers are just trying to ease into it.
this video was super interesting and i love the chart you came up with. sometimes i feel like 'queerbaiting' is just not a useful term at all. because usually its either stories that are literally offensive (so not exactly 'baiting' anyone) or could not have a kiss for whatever reason. it also seems like people often accuse shows of queerbaiting due to some feeling of being owed a plot by the authors/showrunners/etc. sometimes just subtext is as gay as the text being explicit! so i love that you are adding some more nuance to the conversation, and showing how even 'unconfirmed' relationships can still be positive
That is such a good point about writers not "owing" us a definitive romantic resolution. In real life people also often have sexual tension or chemistry that doesn't lead to any physical contact and dating, and a lot of people are also not super sure about their labels and how to describe their sexuality, and yet we somehow expect fictional characters to be 100% clear about these things.
I am thinking of Psychopath Diary for example, a k-drama in which the main character has really good chemistry with every other actor. He and the female lead are kinda flirty with each other and it seems like there is budding romance, but the story never goes there, they are just friends. Nobody thinks they were robbed or baited because the plot didn't go there. Obviously there is a difference there because queer romances historically are underrepresented and there is a ton of straight romances, but I don't think queerbaiting is necessarily a bad thing.
Her Private life for example has a bit of a queerbaiting plotline that is not negative. The male lead thinks that the female lead and her bestie are a lesbian couple, which leads to hilarious misunderstandings. But he is actually a really supportive ally while he thinks they are dating and helps them out. Once the misunderstanding is cleared the female lead doesn't go "eew, I am not gay", she is actually thanks him for being so supportive and they end up in a mature and wholesome relationship. His reaction to the queerbaiting plot line was a green flag. This shouldn't be the only type of representation, but I don't think this is bad writing.
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Interesting! I think one of my takeaways from this video is that, since the characters are made up and not real people, we have to think of the representations of their sexuality as saying something in particular, or working to develop meaning. So even the relationships that don't look exactly how irl gay relationships do can still say something nuanced and interesting. Same goes for you example of Her Private Life. Something I was wondering while watching this video, and reading your reply, is what to do about the matter of camp and/or the reclimation of homophobic characters.
I have not seen a lot of kdramas, and I don't know much about Korean gay culture, but speaking as an American who loves old film (meaning, lots of homophobic depictions of gay people) sometimes the homophobic depictions are still beloved by gay people. Like even gay villains that aren't written to be nuanced (as you mention you enjoy gay villains if they are written well in the vid) can still be very fun and interesting. I think an example would be the gay villains of Hitchcock's films, specifically Strangers on a Train or Rope. They are outwardly problematic depictions of gay men, but there is still something about them that is intriguing to gay people. I wonder if there are analogous cases in Korean media? If so, I wonder where this might fit on your axis (if at all)? Just curious haha!
Also btw I'm so glad UA-cam reccomended you, after watching your video on Semantic error I binged like 50% of it last night, and will finish it today once I get home. Thank you for your great videos!!
Hmm, I am not ware of any reclaimed queer characters from Korean media. The thing is k-dramas have started including positive depictions of lgbt chacters around 3-4 years ago, and k-dramas with the problematic characters are all around 10-12 years old, there is not that much before that. I am not sure all of this is long ago enough to reclaim a character, I have seen a ton of shipping and headcanon gays in k-dramas tho. Comparing Korean media to old Hollywood is also hard because of the timeline. The US already had a thriving film industry in the 30s, 40s and 50s which only thrived and became bigger since, but Korea was dealing with colonization, wars and a lot of political unrest in that time. South Korea was a poor country under a military dictatorship until the late 80s and a had a ficancial crisis int he 90s. The 90s and 2000s is when the film/TV industry really blossomed and became internationally popular and Korea rapidly became a rich country, so most of the media is from this century. I feel like this isn't enough time to start reframing old media? I am not sure though, my Korean is not good enough to read the Korean hot takes.
I still remember how in Sweet Revenge 2 there was. A storyline about Rok Hee’s friend being jealous and passive over her and I thought it was a storyline about the girl having a crush on Rok Hee, but they just said they were friends. Also, I remember when the little sister had a crush on Rok Hee, I thought it would be that she had a crush on a girl, but she only had the crush bc she thought she was a boy.
Omg I was so rooting for smth to happen between Rok Hee and her friend (even just a confession which could or could not have rejection later on) but nothing happened 💀
i've made this youtube channel my whole personality for the past 3 days. please keep up the amazing work! you have no idea how much you are contributing to the education the new generation needs. you got all our support. stay wirh us
Thank you so much, your comment means so much to me! I promise I am working on more videos and I am also planning to upload videos more often, so stay tuned, a lot more is coming
This was absolutely amazing, but I don’t agree with your take on Squid Game. That VIP coming onto the cop and forcing him to service him doesn’t mean “he’s just gay and being villanized by it”, but it’s a look on reality cause you have powerful business magnates that hide their sexualities, who are awful people and think their power can buy them what they want. I don’t think that was offensive. And it was relevant to the plot because that’s how the cop got information on what he was investigating… At least from what I remember. I think it could have fell under “exploitative”, maybe?
I think it is a bit early to tell whether he got some useful information from that VIP, because season 2 didn't happen yet and we don't know what happens to the cop. As far as season 1 goes the gay assault scene could be edited out without changing the plot, because he doesnt do anything with that information, escapes, get caught and falls off the cliff. It depends on whether in season 2 he does do something meaningful with the evidence. The majority of what he found out was through observation and from breaking into the room with all the documents. I think it still falls on the offensive side of the chart, because nobody feeels represented by that character, he is one dimensional and predatory, he doesn't really fit into any other category?
I am a Korean viewer, and while watching Korean dramas, I often saw scenes highlighting the bromance between the main male lead and the sub-male lead. (Dobong-soon, goblin, etc.) I think the case of dealing with queer without such seriousness is to meet the needs of viewers or to sublimate it into laughter.
(This is just my assumption)
For the bromance scenes:
Women are the main domestic consumers of Kdramas. Except for trending dramas or some male-oriented dramas (political dramas, action dramas, etc.), most viewers are women. In fact, female-oriented dramas account for a high proportion of Korean media. (For my standard)
I think scenes that seem to express bromance, or homosexuality in kdramas are probably to meet their demands. In Korea, majority consumer of GL and BL are women.
For the comedic scenes:
I think the use of homosexuals as laughter codes, such as Dobong-soon and Kill Me Heal Me, is just because the writer lacks understanding or consideration for LGBTQ people. (As you know, Korea is not lgbt-friendly)
Anyway, I hope there will be more movies or dramas that deal with LGBTQ seriously in Korea.
I would recommend some Korean queer movies:
2005 film King and the Clown
2008 film Frozen flowers
2014 film A girl at my door
2016 film The handmaiden
2017 film The Mercility
2017 film Jane
2019 films Moonlit Winter
I am surprised that you did not mention the bi-coded character in gender-bending dramas like Love in Moonlight, The King's Affection, and Coffee Prince. I will say that Lee Yeong from Love in the Moonlight would fall under the censored and exploitative side because the story hints at a possible attraction but immediately reveals that the love interest is a girl. Choi Han-gyeol from Coffee Prince is censored and meaningful because it allows the character to question his sexuality and the concept of love, but I would say that because it is set in modern times, it does not allow the character to identify as bisexual. The King's Affection I would say that it is a bi-representation because Jung Ji-woon falls in love with a man who he does not know is a woman and has a crush on a woman that saves him ( they are the same person) so that gender does not matter to him and the story agrees with that. I would put him next to the couple from Nevertheless, because he is unable to use a label( bisexual or pansexual), so his sexuality is censored.
I I actually haven't finished any of the gender bender k-dramas, but I am planning to make a video sometime in the future about the queerness of this genre and how it is a straight friendly way to explore homo/bi-sexuality in a k-drama, as long as there is a reveal "actually they are straight, don't worry" at the end. This genre seems to give alot of space to exploring homosexuality in a way that doesn't get critisized by conservative viewers. I think there is a lot to explore there! I will keep you comment in mind for that video :)
thanks for making this video! i think your chart is wonderfully made and i will prob use it in the future for my own judgment :))
i was unsure whether "The Boy Next Door" is problematic or not when i watched it. feel a little bad enjoying it as a queer person (with the other shows i don't feel as bad because what makes me enjoy those shows is separated from their gay representations). well, at least TBND isn't openly homophobic and laughter+acceptance (while still exoticizing) is still much better than the predatory trope for laughs... i can sorta forgive Wooshik's character telling the gay couple not to date openly, because he was worried Mina - the girl who was dumped by one of those boys - would see them and get hurt, which is a fair reason. but i do agree that the show is made for straight audiences and during that story, we as the audience are geared to empathize with Mina, not the gay couple, so that's not gay friendly enough for sure.
kdrama writers are definitely more into deep female friendships these days though, making it just slightly lesbian enough for hetero norms (2521, Little Women, ...). but i guess to truly get a good representation, we still have to look at non-mainstream media.
I think the benefit of the doubt we can give that show is: it was well-intended. They clearly tried making a funny lighthearted show about a taboo topic. We can appreciate the intent and the joke delivery while acknowledging this show is not peak gay-representation :) That show came out in 2017 and k-dramas have moved on, the more recent queer characters are more complex and less one-dimensional!
excellent analysis. i was wondering where Run On fell on this scale. it has a supporting role of a boy who is friends with one ml, and a fl realises he loves him as a man. she respects it and it is treated well although the gay character doesn't get any progression with anyone. she also apologises to him cause she told her family she was a lesbian so as to avoid pressure to married and focus on her career. she realizes that actual queer people face discrimination so she shouldn't use that identity where it suits her.
it also has a canonically asexual character who enters a relationship with these parameters, which i thought was neat.
though i love kdramas and disecting korean culture, i am appauled by both the depictions of queer characters and the lack of them. we see signs of change as those you analysed, but i hope sooner than later cause i want to enjoy my dramas wholeheartedly, not ignore their red flags
Thank you for asking this, I initially wrote, but then scrapped a part of the video about Run On. I am actually not sure what to do with that drama, maybe put it somewhere in the middle, or towards the right side in the middle? It is definitely not exploitative and very meaningful and tasteful, but also kinda not meaningful enough to be all the way on the right side? Because there is very little screen time spent on this and it is at the very end of the k-drama in episode 14 and he is not a major character. They do openly discuss his sexuality, but he also doesn't get a relationship and doesn't get to do anything gay and these subplots get very little screentime, so how open is it really? Feels toned down. I did appreciate that there was asexual representation and a gay character tho. I feel like the middle of the chart is for those k-dramas that re neither here nor there.
I love Blueming sooooo much because, like you said, it's about how the main character's relationship happened to be gay and it's a beautiful complex story. You forgot how the main character's sister (who's in highschool) literally falls in love with a colleague from his brother's college and that was so adorable! A season 2 was announced so I'm sure they may go deeper with that little arc when the sister is of age. Somebody was also amazing.
What, there is going to be a season 2? I hope they explore the sister's storyline more, because she was barely featured
Your content is always SO well done, it really shows how much effort you put into not only the research but also the editing and storytelling of your videos, keep it up!💞
Thank you, I really appreciate your comment!
Hmm, I believe True Beauty, Strong Women Do-Bong-Soo (at least for the main male actor and the other guy being all close) and All of Us Are Dead had what people call "fanservice", haha.
I think queerbaiting is fansiervice!
Thank you for this video
I haven't watched that one, but people usually say it it done very tastefully. From your description in the middle on the right side, close to Nevertheless sounds about right :)
Is it really sangchu’s sexuality that he’s struggling to accept? I got the impression that it wasn’t so much that he didn’t want to be queer, but that he wants to avoid anything as untidy and unpredictable as love. He’s about as uncomfortable with Jihye’s attraction to him as Jaeyoung’s; Jihye is just easier to refuse because his own feelings aren’t in the way. I *suppose* you could argue that that was him longing to be aro-ace and that his struggle was to accept that he *has any sexuality at all*, but it seems like there are better, clearer ways we could characterize it, since the phrase “struggling to accept your sexuality” is generally used to mean internalized homophobia.
Hmm, interesting point! I also got ace/aro vibes from him, like he never thought about sexuality before. There is a scene after the "almost kiss" in the theater prop room, where Sangwoo is googling stuff like "hormonal disorder" and "what's wrong with my body" - in the webtoon the scene is more in your face and what he is actually trying to figure out is why he got a boner when they almost kissed. And he is confused about what is happening and shuts down. So I think it is fair to say he is still figuring out his sexuality as the story progresses.
I think we might have different definitions of "struggling to accept your sexuality", I don't think it has to do anything with internalized homophobia and I never thought that this is how people use that phrase. I think "struggling to accept" is more of a wide and abstract concept. A lot of people have never been homophobic and have families and friends that would be accepting and still struggle with admitting it to themselves. It can take a long time to untangle heteronormativity and figure out sexuality, it is stressful. At least it was like that for me, I never struggled with internalized homophobia, but it is stressful and a struggle to figure it out :)
I saw quite a lot of myself in this character and I think he struggled more with intimacy than with his sexuality even though they are linked. His other interpersonnal relationship (or lack thereof ) through the series is kind of congruant with this idea that the root of his struggles with his own sexuality came from fear of intimacy, opening to others, being vulnerable and being involved with others.
@@mathilda2537 Agreed. Sangwoo comes off to me as someone who doesn't really form friendships very much and may not connect emotionally to anyone outside his family. If he were demisexual, it absolutely would make sense that he's never felt much sexual interest in others, because his discomfort with emotional intimacy would prevent those attractions from forming (until jaeyoung managed to catapult himself into sangwoo's lap).
Love the nuance in your analysis
I think the sexual tension between the two male leads in The Devil Judge is quite obvious and of course very sexy. Bromance and Mr. Queen were fun and generally respectful.
7:28 i don’t think it’s meant to be in a “he’s bad because he’s gay”, he’s just a bad person who happens to be gay. the story would be quite similar if he was still straight etc so i don’t really see it as exploitative
I though about this a lot, because I actually do like this character, so I have mixed feelings about it. think it it exploitative because the story makes a joke out of his crush on Vincenzo. Everyone else in the show is evil because they are greedy, or murder people, but none of the straight characters are evil because they abuse their partners, only the gay character is. In the plot his father is a r*pist, but he is not actually in the story, he is just mentioned. Like father like son, I guess? I do think you have a great point tho :)
@@kdramaresearchinstitute i get both sides and kinda agree on both but i’m also tired of the thing we’re people get man when a villain happens to be gay as if gay people can’t be horrible people. as long as the character isn’t played AS MUCH for laughs as like in doo bongsoon (which is still one of my favourites) i feel okay with it.
You forget about Mr. Queen, worst ending ever..
I dropped Mr. Queen after 2 episodes, couldn't get into it - but your comment makes me think this was the right move!
@@kdramaresearchinstitute besides the force straight lover ending that itself was good I had good laughs watching it, but king end up w queen (not the queen w soul of a guy) entire drama was king falling in love w male in queen body so the ending was to pleased straight audience..
Mine is one of my favorite kdramas and I would love to hear you talk about it 😊 I saw the included scenes in that video and I think the queer relationship is well portrayed, taking the conservative and pressured environment they are in into account
I watched some of the scenes in Mine, but I didn't watch the whole show yet, that's why I didn't inlcude it in a discussion :)
This comment got wayys to long. Sorry about that.
I haven't watched that many kdrama (maybe so far 30?) and i have yet to watch a romance focused queer story (many are on my watchlist, but i mostly watch thriller/mystery or suspense, which usually only has queer subtext instead of actual queer characters) but i did encounter a few canon queer characters and a few censored or implied queer stories.
For example The Killer's Shopping List has a trans woman as side character. At first i was sceptical (spoilers ahead) she gets accused of being a serial killer as the mc kinda jumps to conclusions fast, but it gets resolved quickly and she becomes closer with the characters and by the end of the show she has come out to the local neighbourhood and everyone uses she/her pronouns for her and one character even wants make up tips from her at some point! The only problem i could see with the portrail is that the actor is a man, which i guess is to expected as i doubt sk has many outed trans actresses. But it was done respectfully and the character even has a trans flag in the middle of her room!
Another one i've seen that has canon queer characters is Move to Heaven (spoilers ahead again) it's a episodic show about trauma cleaners, so the couple in question was sadly involved with death. Soo-Hyun is a doctor and broke up with his musician boyfriend Ian because of his homophobic parents (and probably some internalized homophobia or fear of being gay in south korea probably) he regretted the break up so he bought two rings as a sort of marriage proposal and was planning to make it up to Ian. But before that could happen he was killed in the Hospital. The episode ends really bittersweet as Ian eventually gets the rings and wears both of them to honor Soo-Hyun. He even plays the first song he ever played his boyfriend (i cried almost every episode for this show, but this one really had me bawling xD)
The Merciless was sadly put down by censorship, i heard the director openly addmited that he intended that the two main characters where gay for eachother. He apparently also retweets BL tweets?? Dude has no chill haha. Also, this guy directed Kill Bokson which came out a while ago and THAT movie has a gay character (the daughter of the Protagonist)
Mr Queen (again spoilers) is probably the next closest thing to canon i've started to watch. Cook from the modern era lands in the body of a queen that lived 200 something years ago, he sorta eventually falls in love with the King and Vise Versa. The OG Queen comes eventually back but it's kinda obvious that she and the cook are reincarnations from eachother, so does it really matter?? The chinese original had apparently more open bisexuality where the Queen is making out with other women.
The ending was kinda sad as the King basically fell in love with the quirky version of the Queen aka the one possessed by a man, but the poor og Queen isn't like that at all.. everyone involved should have gotten a happy ending, but in my eyes this didn't happen.
Also can't post this comment without mentioning Beyond Evil (probably my fav shows ever) like, some the lines in this show are almost unbeliveable.
Examples: calling eachother cute, getting called out as a "couple" by several characters, One of these fuckers says "so you plan to ram your horns into me and rip me to pieces, is that it?" while smirking. His Partner then also smiles and says YES. Also there is a scene right out of a cheesy romance, when in episode two we get a close up of the younger character as he watches the local dilf in the rain who gets light on by sunlight. In slowmo... for several seconds... yeah no there is something going on here and it's not family love if you ask me xD.
First of all: thank you for taking the time to watch the video and write such a long comment, I really appreciate it! I started this channel because I wanted to have conversations about k-dramas, so this is perfect!
I am actually planning to make a video mentioning The Killers Shopping list, I think this is a quite a new emerging lgbt-trope. I am not a fan of the whole "what if the trans character is dangerous" thing, but I will be making a video about this in the future. The thing about casting a guy for this role though... I know this is a topic in US centric media, but Korea doesn't really have any openly lgbt actors or singers, and coming out is career suicide, so I don't think we should be expecting Korean actors to play their gender/attraction they have in real life. We don't know if any of these actors are straight or cis...
Move to heaven I haven't watched yet, but I am planning, since it has queer characters, I wanna see how this show handled the topic, but sounds like the "bury your gays" trope. Haven't watched The Merciless either, but it has Siwan and if you are saying it was originally gay, I am now interested in it. The watchlist is getting longer :)
And yes, Beyong Evil is super gay, their chemistry is insane. If one of them was a woman, they would have kissen 100%, but the writers chickened out, because it was two men. I am a bit torn, because on one hand this might be a bit queerbait-ish, but also: people and fictional characters are allowed to have gay encounters without having to define anything or come out. Oh, look at these two single men meeting at night in the basement to stand really close to each other. I don't know what was in the script, but I feel like Yeo Jin Goo and Shin Ha Kyun must have had conversations about them playing it as gay!
Mr Queen isn't exactly true he never really kissed any women he more or less would thirst over them but he ended up falling in love with the Emperor so it's actually a gay political comedy romance😓
This is a super interesting analysis! What do you think about Twenty Five Twenty One? Would you call what they did in the first few episodes with hee-do and yu-rim queerbaiting?
When I was watching this, me and my friend both genuinely believed they were giving off lesbians vibes. Hee-do would watch and admire yu-rim a lot and tell her she likes her, even going as far as sharing scenes resembling main kdrama couple tropes between each other. Also they would chat online annonimously, those scenes framed as soulmates vibes (so much that at first it leads the audience to think the person behind the screen is the male lead/love interest) but all they did was culminate in them being best friends.
I have not watched 2521, so I cannot comment on that show, but if I ever do watch it I will pay attention to it. But sounds pretty gay to me!
Sports just inheretly encourage gay vibes in many ways. Lots of things you do in sports seems gay from the outside view, but from the inside view they can or can not be, and people don't care much which one it is. At least that is my personal experince. So I didn't think about the dynamic between HeeDo and YuRim as queerbaiting when I watched it. From doing sports on a high level, for me the story could have gone either way and I wouldn't have bat an eye, because both would have been believable. But maybe I am relying too much on personal experince and the way I liked the portrayal of how doing sport at an ambitious level in a unknown sport is shown in a very real way so I'm not spot the queerbaiting?
Nevertheless was so annoying and i only watched it for the lesbian couple, they were so cute and had great chemistry. They were the only reason i put up with that horrible drama.
lesbians carrying the whole show on their back!
This channel is so amazing. I wish I could be a part of it ❤❤❤
Just watching the stereotypical part makes me cringe so hard.
I was introduced to Semantic Error as a KBL it never occurred to me as seeing it as a KDrama.
wait, are BL's not considered K-dramas? Aren't KBLs just a subgenre of k-drama? I guess it depends on how narrow or general your definition of "k-drama" is :)
@@kdramaresearchinstitute i think they are seen as bls first and kdramas second if that makes sense
@@kdramaresearchinstitute I am coming at Korean BLs as another country that produces BL content. I think of Thai BL as different to Thai Lakorns.
They can be both. I watch a lot more Japanese dramas than K-dramas (personal preference and language ability), but I consider JBLs both a part of the BL genre and the general J-drama umbrella. BL (or GL) is like any other genre, like detective stories or romcoms.
Dude!! I just susbcribed, your videos are SO good!
Boy Next Door was problematic af, but the episode where their friend comes out of the closet was hilarious. The male leads feeling guilty about breaking up their gay friend and his (female) ex and trying to avoid it being known had me in tears.
Not sure this would be considered queer baiting because the kdrama didn’t take it too far, but I really believed that in Search: WWW Cha Hyeon and Song Gakyeong were interested in each other romantically. Cha Hyeon was giving Song Gakyeong puppy dog eyes, looking longingly at her, and I’m supposed to believe that they are just friends?
Uuh, I haven't watched that one yet! But if you saw queer undertones somewhere, I guarantee you other people saw them too!
The Fabulous (2022) should be in the same spot with Nevertheless. One of the protagonists is openly gay. At the end, he seemingly found a new love, but the plot didn't elaborate his love story.
Uh, I haven't seen that one, sounds interesting. Putting this on my watch list
The kiss from nevertheless got cut but the entirety of the handmaiden exists like hello? I guess lesbian intimacy can only be shown on tv when its something men can get off of but the masses arent ready for two girls kissing bc its not sexual r u serious
Well, the Handmaiden is a movie - kdramas and k-movies seem to work with completely different rules for some reason!
@@kdramaresearchinstitute like 😭😭 but not even a kiss bc its a show like thats just wild to me
Achei muito interessante o vídeo e adorei a metodologia que vc criou ❤
i get so excited every time you post tysm for making these videos :DDDD !!
Thank you for watching, your comment made me really happy :)
extremely interesting video, thanks for sharing!!
I wonder what you think about Drink Now Work Later. (Spoiler) ........ According to me there were too many subtle clues of two of three main leads being in romantic love with one another, but in the end they all have implied straight relationships.
Also warning you may or may not want to watch the show. It has some very questionable straight s*x scene where one of the party is completly passed out and doesnt remember anything. However it is all played as a ha ha joke.
I started watching it, but dropped it after one episode, I didn't really get the show - so I can't really comment on that. If you thought there were some queer vibes, then other people probably noticed it too! But that scene sounds horrible, might have to watch it for some future video essay tho!
I watched the show too. Mostly the first season but the time Jigoo and Jiyeon had a big argument, I felt some of those subtle clues. I felt it even more when in the scene where Jigoo rushed to Jiyeon’s side after the SOS alert (or something like that).
I thought I was just being delusional or reading too deeply into the show but at some point I really thought that they had a romantic history or some sort of underlying romantic feelings that was shrouded by their friendship.
From the beginning of the show Jigoo appeared to me as a queer character. The writers even had a student of hers come out to as lesbian to her and express their feelings for her. At this point, I thought they were hinting at the queerness of her character but when they paired her with that dude, I was completely baffled. To me, it just made no sense.
this was so helpful. thanks :)
I like how the XY acis is used, but kiss? Don't expect kiss even in regular k-drama 😂
Well that's not true, most romance k-dramas have a kissing scene, including the ones that have queer charachters 😀
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Maybe. After 5 years of watching can't remember a kiss, a touch is already too much 😂...
very interesting!
What do you think of Record of Youth? I don’t think it was offensive but it might’ve been exploitative. There was a very famous designer who invited the main character to his house and tried to come onto him in exchange of sponsoring him as a model and he said no, very respectfully. That ended awfully cause the designer killed himself but I believe it was exploitative…
I haven't watched that one yet, but I heard people say it is awful queer representation
fellow subscribers, i have a question that's been occupying my mind: do you think bl actors who do not explicitly come out as non-straight are queerbaitors? i don't want to misjudge or offend anyone. it's just something i've been thinking about and i'd like to know other opinions or points of view on this: do all bl/gl actors need to match the sexuality of the characters they're playing for better, more meaningful, and valid representation?
Queerbaiting as a term exclusively refers to fictional characters in media, an actor can't queerbait, a TV show or a movie can. But the question of whether straight actors are allowed to play LGBT character is still a good question, it's just would not be called "queerbaiting" :) A question which I think is not relevant to Korean media in the same way it is in the US or other countries. Korea is still a conservative and homophobic society, there are like 3 or 4 examples of celebrities who came out in the whole industry. Statistically a lot of beloved actors are probably queer, but they can't come out in Korea, that would be career suicide. We actually don't know if they are straight, they might be in the closet and we can't expect them to come out. Also this attitude towards actors "you are scamming us unless you come out" is kind of heteronormative. Why do we assume everyone one is straigth unless they come out? We can assume everyone is bi, unless they state otherwise, lol
But let's imagine a world where homophobia is over an everyone can safely come out without any consequences - I don't think actors need to match the characters they play. The job of an actor/actress is to play someone who they are not by definition. It is only a problem when straight actors get all the queer roles, and queer actors don't get any straight roles... What do you think?
@@kdramaresearchinstitute that makes sense. thank you for sharing your opinion!! 💖💖
@anggarak I know. Same here. I mean, I won't blame them because they probably have their conditions/situations, and we'd probably understand that they might have valid reasons if we were in their shoes because every queer person or even an ally deals with different obstacles. But, considering all of that, my feelings as the queer audience are also valid. I just hope that the artists who give us good quality art to enjoy and find meaning in representing our community, won't ever /regret/ doing so because in that way the point is just gone.
Yeah, if an actor plays a queer character I automatically assume they are an ally. They don't have to come out, but they need to support the community!
@anggarak you don't have to. i'm actually so glad & thankful that the kbl industry has contributed sm. also your chosen family is always here, never feel lonely💕
7:17 i don't agree with this. Does every lgbt representation have to be in the characters who are morally good? Does being gay mean you are also a good person? No, obviously it doesn't. The sexual orientation of the guy shouldn't matter because he is a bad guy, and there are people who are out there who abuse their partners, regardless of their orientation. I guess what you are trying to say is that lgbt characters are being villainized, and that's not right, but in real life, there certainly are gay people who do bad stuff like this. And for that, i think they are being portrayed in a more natural light (dont get me wrong, im obviously not saying that it's more natural for a gay person to be evil or something) just how straight people usually are. We don't say 'oh he has murdered someone because he is straight', right?
I know exactly what you mean and I do love a gay villain, I can identify with that! Gay characters don't have to be boring perfect angels, they should be allowed to be messy and complex, which is a point I make later in the video with some examples of characters who are great villains that happen to be gay. But in these villains do bad stuff that has nothing to do with their homosexuality, in Vincenzo Min Seong is a villain because he is an abuser, all the other villains in this show are evil because they are greedy murderers. Gay men who are abusers are absolutely in the wrong and should be called out exactly as everyone else who does this, but portraying gays as a threat is the default trope in media. I actually think you and I are making the exact same point!
@@kdramaresearchinstitute oh thanks for clarifying that! and i agree completely with everything you've said iin the video. also, i love your video on eating disorders, i felt the same thing!
Oh boy, this topic, watch celluloid closet, or study feminism in film for your answer
Спасибо большое за видео. Я ненавижу персонажа-гея в Сильной женщине..Это такой сборник стереотипов о гееях в одном персонаже. Такое ощущение, что сценаристам чем то насолили геи и они решили на них отыграться. Но,если честно квирбейтинг я тоже не люблю. Это тоже бывает оскорбительно.
Согласна! А я подумала что сценарист не знает как ведут себя геи в реальной жизни и никогда об этом не задумывался. Как далеко всетаки прогресс прошёл с 2016 года в дорамах, теперь сценаристы геев (к счастью) так уже не пишут.
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Выход на международный уровень тоже сказывается. Всё-таки в мире гомофобию не любят, мягко говоря. Есть ещё night flight хороший фильм и high heels мне нравится (хотя, без недостатков).
Надо будет посмотреть!
@@kdramaresearchinstitute Первый такой очень грустный и более реалистичный. Кстати, на счёт гомофобии. Есть один знаменитый ресторатор, которого перестали приглашать на ТВ, после "выхода из шкафа ". Это было лет 10 назад, сейчас он ведет свое шоу. Хон Сок Чон его зовут. Так что с гомофобией там очень и очень плохо. Зато очень популярны bl дорамы.
coming back to this vid once more!! (i often do (since i first discovered your channel at mid-final instances of last year jsj
OMG, thank you so much for your long and well thought out comment, it really means a lot to me! ❤ I love it when people leave long comments, I want my video to be a in depth conversation about k-dramas. If people don't comment a lot then it feels like I am spending an insane amount of effort just creating videos that disappear into a void, but after comments like yours it feels like there is a point in me doing this!
First of all, do not judge yourself for being cringe as a teenager, everyone roll their eyes looking back at their younger selves hot takes and tastes. We all have to go through those phases. If someone doesn't admit they used to be cringe, then they aren't growing as person. Imagine if someone said "oh no, I never thought anything stupid in my life" that would be such a red flag!
I am actually planning to do a video essay about the rise of Korean BL's, so that recommendation is perfect, I haven't seen it yet! We love a k-drama that has a plot, where you can feel that the team who worked on it really wanted to make a good show and got the budget for it. Thank you for that recommendation, the show has a really high rating on Mydramalist.
Of Jiwoong's k-dramas I have seen "Don't lie Rahee", that was was about eating disorders, hope he gets more cool roles!
@@kdramaresearchinstitute OMG YOU ACTUALLY REPLIED TO ME afshsfhrsh 😭😭😭😭 first of all, thank you for reading my long ass comment and replying to me