Paul’s Go Fund Me: www.gofundme.com/f/make-dads-remaining-months-happy-comfortable Paul’s miniature: store.warlordgames.com/products/sergeant-sawyer-charity-figure
Great to have The Old World now. But it's a pity so many armies are not continued. Paul has had an enormous impact on a lot of wargamers, at least for me he had. Very sad news, so the least we can do is support him a bit. The sergeant model is an amazing tribute.
I'll never defend the End Times. It's the simply the culmination of years of bad ideas and losing track of what works for Fantasy and instead trying to be like 40k. That said I'm sure if Fantasy continued they would have changed it's game play to match what Age of Sigmar is doing, if for no other reason then to make it look closer to 40k. I could see then still releasing The Old World years later to cashing in on older players want a older rank and flank style of game.
Hmmm. See I don't quite see it that way. To me, AOS ultimately didn't "replace" Warhammer fantasy. Rather it was a "slide sideways" where it explored a part of the timeline of Warhammer history that indeed was in the same realm that classic fantasy took place. In that sense, WHF didn't go anywhere, since we still had all the older editions to play on our own with our classic armies. As far as the End Times goes, at first I absolutely hated it. But over time I've come to appreciate what GW was doing. It's one of those things where, by the time 8th Edition came around, WHF had been around for nearly THIRTY YEARS. Something had to conclude the story as it were. There had to be some sort of climactic events, which I think made sense. Yes, it was very painful to see WHF discontinued in 2015. But I felt like it was the right thing to do even if it felt very wrong. For me AOS was at first a mixed bag. But I came to appreciate the new type of round based game. I ended up collecting several factions and built and painted several armies and really came to love the AOS lore. But I don't see what they did with The End Times as a culmination of bad ideas, far from it.
Interesting perspective! I think it's a really healthy persepctive to acknowledge that while you wouldn't have made certain choices, those choices have led us to the really positive point we're at now
Thoughts and prayers to Paul Sawyer and his family! For me, the end of this video is so much more important than the ongoing debate over the state of Warhammer, etc. Thank you for sharing that Stuart. Not that the history and ongoing legacy of Warhammer Fantasy isn't a healthy and fun thing to discuss of course. But whenever I hear news like this, I'm reminded of those we've lost. And that our time gaming and the times spent with friends and family is very precious - and finite. ❤
I had actually stopped playing & collecting Warhammer before the end times as life got in the way, so I completely missed it and was surprised to see fantasy gone when I finally came back to it a few years ago, glad I kept all my old stuff and I even though I didn’t like the way they ended it when I looked I am also really glad we have the current Old world game and I’m now all in on this edition
I was playing other games as well at the time, so it somewhat softened the blow. Glad you kept your stuff though and able to bring it back for the new game.
Absolutely agree with your opinion here. I was sad to see WFB go, but we wouldn’t have TOW now if it had stayed. For me it’s not just the rules, but the reintroduction of oldhammer minis back into production and the encouragement to convert new units in the official rules. Fingers crossed the initial success of TOW leads to GW releasing more legacy factions in the future, (as well as more minis from the archives!). Very sad news about Paul, White Dwarf was a great read under his editorship.
I'm a Warhammer collector completionist. I've got every edition of Warhammer on my shelf going back to 2nd, I've got every soft cover and hard cover rulebook and every army book from 3rd Ed. - 8th Ed., as well as most of the supplements like the 2003 General's Compendium, Triumph and Treachery, etc. All told it's about 80 books and supplements that I've methodically collected over the years. I've also got the limited numbered collectors editions of both WHF 7th and 8th. And now I've got The Old World on the shelf along side them all! I agree 100% with Stuart. I don't think the release old Old World could be what it is if GW had carried on with Warhammer Fantasy beyond the 2015 point. With regard to Age of Sigmar, yes it was a very bumpy, messy, and controversial move on GW's part. But as the last nine years have gone by, I came to realize that it was actually a genius move on GW's part. By the End Times, WHF was selling VERY poorly. The game had totally stagnated and it had become a lead weight around GW'S leg. But the irony is that at that time, 2011-2015 GW was producing some of the most beautiful, richly detailed books of the highest quality. Moving to round bases with AOS shook things up and created a new IP that eventually took off spectacularly. And waiting until NOW to finally bring back the Old World and the square bases, etc. only has the impact it does because it was MISSING for so long from GW's arsenal of games. I feel like with TOW and old friend has returned. And since I have multiple vintage Warhammer armies already painted, it was an easy decision to invest a couple hundred dollars in conversion trays to accommodate the new base sizes.
I certainly abandoned GW at End Times. I had been spending loads of money on fantasy, blood bowl, quest and mordheim. I have started spending money again. I taught the wife to play, and she enjoys 6th edition, Quest and pike and shot. Me plus one returned to fold... I really didn't like the lore of AOS, esp the loss of Bretonnia!!! It was all packed away until lockdown...when the wife and I started playing. I agree with legacy factions...I want to play my Chao Dwarfs!
I'm in love with the old world and his lore! and those minis!!! spent tons of money on dwarfs... and I am hoping and praying for khatay, kislev and other factions... but for now I'm saving money for Elves and Empire!
It certainly is a shame that Warhammer Fantasy did get destroyed but it is very likely that if the game had been kept it wouldn’t look like Old World looks now. There was a bit of bigger and better bloat as the number of editions wracked up with some of that no doubt relating to GW trying out things to make it become more popular. If they had stuck with it and perhaps tried to leverage off the success of the Total War earlier with a mix of new factions or shake up of existing ones (alliances in the form of army books etc). GW likely could have made a lot of money by realising that nostalgia sells even if the game hadn’t been wiped. I bet if they had dipped into MTO offerings from the Marauder days they would have sold well All things considered I think we are in a good place. I really want/need for the legacy factions to be core again and really would like this before even seeing a brand new faction. I would be pretty surprised if the existing core were released and then a statement said that is it folks….sales seem to be too good to pass up as they have suggested with their surprise how well it has been going (their surprise really surprised me to be honest lol) I think the game is benefiting from adage that absence makes the heart grow fonder. I wonder if I would have gotten as much into it if fantasy had just continued especially if the nature of the game had changed As a side note I don’t really get why 40k outsells everything and marines outselling all the other factions of that game too. They are cool but personally I just never got it.
It didnt work out well for thousands of players at the time that had formed communities, ran tournaments and laboriously collected models and painted armies. The things that exist now in the Old World Rules, as anyone that played the earlier editions know, did not require blowing up the old world. The rules of Old World now are just the result of iterations of the basic game from 4th to 8th. The rules changes from 8th to The Old World were things that anyone playing the game a lot knew already what to do or what needed changing. I like TOW and have been playing it. They have overcooked monsters and heroes in TOW and the strict kill point system is a crude way to play the game. The Old World rules are an iteration of 8th edition and arriving at them did not require blowing up the Old World.
I agree with most of all of that, just differ slightly on the last point. While TOW could have been what a 9th edition looked like if it was released after 8th, but I feel it would have been different, and over the years the and further editions changed more in the direction that 40K has. I think with all that has happened we got a game that feels like an older edition, not one of 9 years worth of development and new editions. I’m not saying I like the end times, it was just a fun thought experiment on why what we have now is like it is.
Interesting thoughts Stu, i drifted away from Warhammer after v5 and i doubt i would have come back if OW was just v9 but this feels a bit different, a proper nod to the older editions ( i started with 1st) and a bit like middle earth, not having endless changes and refreshes works for us veteran players.
Definitely agree. AOS and modern 40K are great for people who want what they offer, but they aren’t for me - in either my preferences or who they’re made for. SDS is a much better home for Fantasy in my opinion.
I know the people looking after the game are truly passionate about what they’re trying to do with it, and while that won’t help price, availability etc, it’s nice to know that SDS have love for what they’re trying to do.
I'll play Beastmen anywhere, try and stop me! 😂This was really well thought out IMO, I also hope they re-release the Mighty Fortress and maybe new Siege Scenarios. Best wishes to Paul and his family, I love the articles he put out and am very sorry to hear about the health problems he is facing. Edit: will be purchasing from Warlord games in the future, their selection is lovely.
Looking forward to seeing more Warhammer the Old World literature. Recently read the Brettonia novel. It was a nice start. Now let's see more. Give me a good William King Warhammer the Old World novel. Maybe an early Gotrek novel.
I really hope they do more fiction, both Graham McNeil and Gav Thorpe have told me they’d do it if asked, and would love to see Bill King do something. Sadly I don’t think Gotrek was born for another 100 years or so after the old world timeline starts.
Here at the early point of my watch of the video, I’ll partially agree. Blowing up Fantasy did irreparable damage to my gaming group, as well as my trust in GW - But, now that The Old World is finally here, something new is being built up. The game is incredibly fun, but also has some (in my mind) serious issues and pitfalls (which I put down to being teething issues). I’m fully hoping for and anticipating that the “legacy” factions will get reintroduced in due time - Anything less would keep TOW being a lesser game than it could be (he says, heavily biased by the fact that all armies we’d kept in my gaming group were all legacied 😂).
I do wonder and kinda believe that they could have kept the setting and just revamped the rules. If anything the End Times just demarcates Warhammer Fantasy and AoS and it could have been executed a lot better (though there were some really cool scenes). In the end at least the Old World is here which will explore a very specific period of time in greater detail than before. Also, I do believe that the Legacy Factions will eventually return, that’s just money sitting on the table they’re not tapping into.
I think as we see more factions getting their AOS ‘glow up’, those ranges are updated and old fantasy models removed, then they will start to come back.
AoS was the beginning of streamlining rules to bring in more players, 40K has gone the same route. There’s no doubt had they kept the Fantsy setting, it’d still resemble AoS in rules,
You obviously have not played the previous rules or even know anything about them to make such a nonsensical claim. There was a major stream lining of rules from WHFB 3rd to 4th. 4th to 8th was also a process of streamlining rules.
I agree about the clean tidying up and streamlining from 1st/2nd/3rd to 4th and beyond, 4th was the big change. The rest was more a slow evolving change. AOS was clearly a bigger change with a completely different kind of game. I think that’s obviously the point being made here, not sure the hyperbole is required.
It’s back and it’s here to stay. I missed it first time round and I can only imagine how pissed off the community must’ve been but it’s BACK! Chin up and charge the mountain, it’s here and be happy for that. Only thing I’m pisssed about is no more gotrek and Felix novels. They’re my favourite books and I adore them! Hopefully we get more old world lore and books.im sure they’ll re add all the factions with story progression etc. people seem to forget that this is being handled by the “ second” team. If we keep buying, playing and talking. Then they will add more factions. Keep your heads up and play the long game:)
I look at Warhammer: The Old World as a sort of soft reboot of the setting. An alternate timeline that may or may not lead to Karl Franz as emperor in 200 years, and may or may not end with another ultimate Chaos victory. At least, that's what I hope it is. They could even make that an in-universe thing. Perhaps The Old Ones put in a fail-safe to the world. Perhaps Tzeentch himself is unhappy with how things ended and is _changing_ things around. Who knows 😅 Anyway, pretty excited with TOW. A few rules I'd like to see tightened up, but overall it's really cool.
That’s a very fun way to look at it. For what it’s worth I’m not sure they will ever (or intend to) get close to the old timeline, so much space in the new timeline. We are then all free to forget what happens from 2513 onwards (for pretend it never happens).
There’s been 3 times where I’ve been entirely consumed by the Hobby - Storm of Chaos, End Times, and Old World (the prelude of the Great Chaos Invasion) to me what I seem to enjoy most from Warhammer are Apocalypse Level events. Where Magic and Chaos are it’s apex and the ludicrous and unimaginable can take place because reality begins to bend. I do enjoy AoS too, not least because there are literal Gods leading Armies. I thoroughly Enjoyed End Times, with or without the Current Old World. I personally cannot Wait until the full blown invasion where we see Asavar Kul .
@@MiniatureRealms yes, building up the Narrative is good, I’m happy however that we know what its working towards. Old Warhammer was always in Limbo until they were Brave enough to bring us an End of the World.
Oof not watched the video yet but I'm getting both my popcorn and my torch and pitchfork ready! Only joking, it's certainly a bold take but I'm happy to hear you out.
OK, so now that I have watched the video, I think I agree with you for the most part. As I said to someone else in this comment section I do wonder what a continued storyline after a semi-successful chaos invasion could have looked like, what new factions could have been introduced or how existing factions could have evolved or been updated. Maybe bringing in a lot of the AoS ideas like sylvaneth, nighthaunt, idoneth, karadron, and the separate chaos factions. But I do really love the classic vibes of the old world and I'm really enjoying collecting all the factions I wished I could afford when I was younger and painting them to a far higher standard than I could when I was a teenager. Having said that, I think the Old World has quite a lot of issues which need to be ironed out for it to realise its full potential. It's clearly not been seen as a priority by some factions within GW. It's had a reduced scope from when it was initially announced and the delays, stock issues, legacy factions, and lack of significant new model releases has lead to a lack of confidence among a lot of the consumer-base. I think this has caused anxiety about its longevity among fans of the game and a tentativeness about getting into it from those who are maybe unsure. Essentially it looks like a bit of a cash grab playing on nostalgia. I don't really like the new chaos lore either, chaos is meant to be undivided when it's at its strongest and most unified so the lore doesn't make sense. It seems more like an excuse not to bring in some of the faction specific stuff which has been moved over to AoS, or an attempt to discourage people to use AoS models in their old world armies. Despite all the above, I'm an old world super fan and have spent far too much money and time on it over the past 9 months. I'm currently on my 5th army with plans for 2 more by the end of the year! Anyway, great video :)
Thank you. Some really great points there, and it’s really nice seeing what other people think in regard to this. I definitely want to explore and theorise what a post Storm of Chaos Warhammer could have been, might have to record a chat with the Jordan Sorcery about it.
I really don't care about End Times now when TOW is here. I actually had a blast with it - being able to form a major chaos incursion army (WoC + Beastmen). What I really hate is what happened AFTER End Times (Age of Sigmar). Not gonna lie, I really hate its lore, its cosmology - and I dislike some models (some I like tho' - like DoK Khinerai Lifetakers, the best harpies we ever had, totally using them in TOW). As for legacy factions - they will be back hopefully. They may just release a DLC named The New World - with Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Sartosa Vampires and Pestilence Skaven. It may even take place in different times than TOW, since the distance is so great, allowing GW to tell another story. I really dislike ogre army (I think their place is where they currently are - being mercs). I really like Chaos Dwarfs tho' - and hope they get an army at some point (or at least some merc units to use in chaos armies). The Plain of Zharr is Warhammer's equivalent of Mordor, Dark Lands are HUGE - many stories to tell there! As for daemons - I'd be OK if they are just summonable by WoC and beastmen wizards.
I agree with so much of this, I definitely think we will get the legacy armies, but they might have to take slightly different forms as you have said. Plenty of room to do that if they have to.
I played 6th-8th, and I absolutely loved 8th, and while I was kind of ambivalent about the ending of the setting (the insane rules of the End Times are still fun to play from time to time) I'm glad to see the setting return with actual support and returning models I was unable to collect before. The Old World has heaps of problems and needs a lot of errata/FAQing, but I'm playing the hell out of it and it's great having so many people jumping back in. I can't wait to see where TOW goes with the mention of continuing Arcane Journals after the initial core factions receive theirs, I think that format will do lots for keeping the game healthy with additional Armies of Infamy and hopefully journals that take place during specific times and include scenarios that are based on specific historic battles. I also hope that we don't get a second edition any time soon the way that AoS seems to be getting a new edition every 3-4 years. I would however like to see what a return to true army books might look like for the old world. With Universal Special Rules being the new standard though, I wonder if they would even be necessary but I would like to maybe see army adjustments/fixes happen this way.
8th was loads of fun, they had a plan for big units and even bigger spells and it certainly worked. I enjoyed it very much. Definitely lots to look forward to in the future as well.
I was long out of the hobby when GW killed WFB, so i have no feeling towards that era at all. If TOW had returned any sooner in my life, I can safely say I wouldnt have been a customer. If WFB had continued uninterupted, I wouldn't be a customer today. I also can't see a big chance of myself being a customer in a year if GW doesn't fix the game so that so that blocks of Core infantry matter.
I really don't like "The Old World". Not only did they remove many factions, they refused to update ANCIENT units and sold them like they are new and revamped. The skeletons for the Tomb Kings are the same as the skeleton models form 1998(!), these models are older than me and are sold for their weight in gold. The End Times was bad, real bad.
@@MiniatureRealms Nah, man I don't believe that for a second. They already have the vampire counts (which they REMOVED) skeletons as a base for the model. They are just greedy.
That’s cool dude, I disagree but the world’s full of different opinions. With opposing opinions on the old world it’s not a surprise we don’t agree on this.
Can't defend the End Times or how they handled it, but appreciate a diff perspective. WFB went downhill because of their ineptitude with writing rules and a bad unsustainable business model, and this edition, while I like what I see so far and am glad fantasy rank and flank is back in Warhammer, will go down the same path if they don't correct the past's power creep and bad rules writing, or their bloated business model.
I was sceptical when I saw the headline but your argument is persuasive. Even if WHFB hadn’t become a skirmish game it would have been “streamlined” and - as you say - we’ve got that with 40K and AoS. TOW provides a richer, more flavourful alternative with motherly love tables and pigeon bombs. And my conclusion last few months is that’s what I want personally.
Yeah I think that’s what may have happened, and while I like some games like that, the ones I really get fully absorbed into are the kind you describe.
I will say I agree because if it never happened I probably would’ve not gotten any good deals for my dwarfs However I will also say I think the end times lore was really poorly executed
What do u think if the old world didn't do the End Times timeline instead, we are getting an alternative timeline instead. Let say the End Times kinda happen but Chaos didn't win the forces of Order prevail?
Ive still not forgiven them for Vampire Counts, but i broadly agree with you. Without AoS we wouldnt have had the accelleration in sculpting quality that weve seen and can now benefit from with ToW. The ends it turns out, do indeed justify the means...
Controversial opinion; Nothing that's been created for AoS couldn't have been added to the Warhammer World plus there's so much they never got round to adding that did exist. Opinion (that can never be proven though); If Warhammer Fantasy Battle had as much money and time invested in it after 8th edition as AoS has had there would have been a huge popularity boost for it. People try to justify Warhammer being shut down by saying AoS is more popular, but GW gained that popularity with masses of investment that Warhammer had been starved of for years. Finally, on your points, the Warhammer World after Storm of Chaos/Magic events would have been far different than it was before them. Just like Horus Heresy and 40k The Old World and Warhammer Fantasy Battle could easily exist within the same setting but separated by a massive event so either side of it on the same timeline, kind of how AoS and Old World does. Warhammer Fantasy could have even adopted round bases and left the regiment blocks behind after Storm of Chaos just like AoS does and you could even have had that. Cynical opinion, for all the attempts at justification and business cases put forward the end of Warhammer and creation of AoS had far more to do with the humiliation of the Chapter House debacle and the moves were 90% motivated by the desire to have a copyrighted setting and factions.
Totally agree, I've often thought of an alternative timeline following Archaon's semi-successful invasion where you get sea elves, sky dwarfs, tree spirits and ghost armies. Stormcast are a bit of a step too far though.
@@The_Captain40k at the end of the day Dwarfs were already making it into the air with Gyro Copters/Bombers, tree spirits already existed and there's no reason why a race of Sea Elves couldn't have been hiding themselves all this time just give them a different origin story. Their emergence could have purely been due to the "End Times" events putting their home and/or resources under threat. Even Stormcast, exactly as they are in the lore, Sigmars attempt to combat Chaos resurrected hero's with their spirits stolen from Nagash. No idea why that couldn't happen in the Warhammer World.
@@chrisbatchelor3759 there’s actually plenty of references to mysterious sea elves in the lore. If I were to rewrite the story I would have had the vortex fail, ulthuan break apart, and a horde of khornate daemons and warriors pour out. I would have launched with a caledor themed faction of high elves where all the dragons had reawoken and caledor dragon tamer returned, facing off against essentially the same khorne force from the first AoS box.
@@The_Captain40k that's awesome! Then the second box could be the campaign of the Dead, the Legions of Nagash, Skeletons of all races (including powerful Beastmen, Orc and Ogre Skeletons) and Spirit Hosts (instead of two separated factions of Bonereapers and Nighthaunt) taking on a COMBINED alliance of Elves, Men and Dwarfs (Cities of Sigmar). Third could have been a war for Albion with the boxset the Giants of Albion army (sons of Behemet) vs Fimir (instead of Kruleboyz, as much as I have an army they're just Swamp Orcs to me, should have introduced a new race). 4th box could have been Skaven invading Tilea and mixed Mercenary armies. Everything having to be around Stormcast limits the story and scope of the setting and makes everyone burnt out on one range over and over again.
Some really interesting points there Chris, I wouldn’t disagree with very much at all really. So many ways they could have gone, and I guess we will never know. Like I said in the video, my opinion is mostly based on liking what we have now, and can’t see a path to that without what’s happened before.
Honestly, I don't have that much trust in GW. I don't believe that just because TOW plays prior in the timeline than the old WHFB, that that would mean that GW leaves the timeline of WHFB untouched. I think they will slowly rewrite its history - not completely of course, but with changes that cater to todays society, and that is not necessarily what us Oldhammer fans want. So I will stick with 6th edition. Cool that some of the old minis are seeing a re-release though. : )
Stuart, there are as many opinions as grains of sand on the average beach, and everyone is entitled to mine.. oops I mean /theirs/ *LOL* So who cares if yours is different to other people's? I don't :) Personally I think GW messed things up ending WH Fantasy, and the reason is simple. Patience, or lack thereof. GW dumped Fantasy and not having the patience to wait, as you have, for GW to launch the Old World years later, players left and many just haven't returned. Say Fantasy was only 10% of GW income and 80% of players haven't come back.. that 8% of revenue GW have lost. 40K and Age of Sigmar would have to make that up, and I don't see that happening, especially with the manufacturing issues you've previously mentioned with lines out of stock almost as soon as they're announced. In their place I wouldn't have dumped Fantasy totally, and then tried to diversify into other games systems stretching an already struggling manufacturing output. I'd have /added/ ONE - not several - line and pitched /that/ to Fantasy players, and managed the transition properly. Then when the new system picks up Fantasy can be dropped because its replacement /already/ exists. One analogy is the UK v US attitude to aircraft carriers; the UK ditched the last one and /then/ started building its replacement. By contrast the US Nimitz class carriers will still be in service when their replacements are launched. Fantasy may not have been making the money that 40K was, but doesn't that point to a demographic issue in that older players in general played Fantasy and younger players played 40K? I'd look at the average ages and pitch the Fantasy range at younger modellers just by releasing a simpler Army Book aimed at them, so you get two books per series, one for older players, and one for younger. Much cheaper than developing and marketing an entire new range. You keep the loyal older players and entice the next generation - maybe the older players' children. To me that makes much more business sense than what GW actually did. TBH I see the release of the Old World as an admission by GW that they screwed up and it's a belated attempt to regain the Fantasy players who have left. You only have to look at the re-introduction of armies like the Tomb Kings, which I see as GW admitting they shouldn't have ditched them to start with. Will it get players back into the fold? Maybe yes maybe no. Definitely no if some factions /don't/ return as players of those won't come back. The price is another issue. GW has always been expensive compared to others. In the interim Fantasy players have probably moved on to alternate /cheaper/ game systems. Especially in a 'cost of living crisis' are players going to want to spend /more/ when the game system they have works? I severely doubt it. Pitching simpler systems at younger players, who can't afford GW prices - and they're not pocket money! I can't see that working either. Would Fantasy be in the place the Old World is now? Maybe so /but/ with the advantage that no players would have been lost and the transition been smoother and managed properly - 'properly' in my opinion that is :)
I agree that dragons, well flying behemoths in general seem to be a little too dominant, and this is highlighted further by infantry sadly looking weak. I’m currently looking at Empire Army lists, and I don’t seem to get much for my points these days. The core of the game is very good, hopefully some tweaks can make it better.
I could have done without the hasty and at times sloppy End Times lore, but that aside I really appreciate where the system currently stands. For one, TOW being relegated to Specialist Games means that we are being spared the FOMO that goes hand-in-hand with the frantic release schedule of mainline games like Wh40k or AoS. I also love how un-modern the ruleset feels with its emphasis on rank and flank and the granular listbuilding it allows, including kitting out your unit champions with magic items. Arcane Journals also seem at times like a time capsule of GW from 20 years ago with unit entries that are unmoored from any existing kits and instead contain those White Dwarf-style text boxes with tips on how to convert them. In hindsight I am even oddly thankful for the fact that GW decided to re-release the old models that I have seen a thousand times by now, since it encouraged me to make a jump into 3d printing to explore alternative miniature makers, who picked up where GW left and created whole alternative model lines in the intervening years. I doubt I would be re-posing STLs in Blender and flexing my hobby skills, if GW were to toss brand spanking new models on par with the recent AoS releases.
Yeah some of that lore was a little rushed (I think it may have been, they released so much in a short time), I really enjoyed the Skaven novel though. Can’t disagree with any of your other observations either really.
I love the end times narrative, those books were awesome in my eyes as some of my firest real introduction to the old world setting (even if my boy Vlad got done dirty). Im also happy as hell with Age of Sigmar, both the lore and the game are in a great place at the moment and the miniatures are gorgeous. Im just getting into the Old World as the talk around it got more positive and its shown it has legs im happy to invest in the setting (Khazukan, Kazakit-ha!). Honestly I'm just stoked that we live in a world where we have all these awesome games to play!
I wish more people had that kind of positive attitude. I’m of course being a bit playful here with the subject, I was sad at the time to see Fantasy go, but now we’re in a healthier place after all I think.
Anyone who thinks that Games Workshop PLC cares about anything but profit is deluding themselves...I learned this in the mid 90s and since resuming interest in the hobby in the past year...all I can say is that nothing has changed in almost 30 years
Of course they’re a PLC, that’s not even up for debate. Luckily there’s lots of creatives there who do care about what they’re writing/sculpting/painting etc, so we do still get some great stuff.
😂 Thank you. Hopefully my point of view comes across, it’s not that I actually like the end times, more that I’m enjoying the old world, and think we only have what we have now because of what’s happened.
Ahhhh, the glorious hard cover rulebook of 8th Edition! The last two editions of WHF had the most absolutely GORGEOUS rulebooks and army books. I've got both hard cover rulebooks as well as the collectors edition versions of 7th and 8th which have special cloth-textured leather-textured covers and slip cases, as well as all the army books for both editions. Stuart is 100% on the money when he says that the WHF books GW was producing from 2007-2015 were amazing quality and were absolutely packed with content and lore.
Paul’s Go Fund Me: www.gofundme.com/f/make-dads-remaining-months-happy-comfortable
Paul’s miniature: store.warlordgames.com/products/sergeant-sawyer-charity-figure
Great to have The Old World now. But it's a pity so many armies are not continued.
Paul has had an enormous impact on a lot of wargamers, at least for me he had. Very sad news, so the least we can do is support him a bit. The sergeant model is an amazing tribute.
It’s a really nice miniature, and clearly very lovingly painted in their studio, looking forward to painting the one I’ve ordered.
I'll never defend the End Times. It's the simply the culmination of years of bad ideas and losing track of what works for Fantasy and instead trying to be like 40k.
That said I'm sure if Fantasy continued they would have changed it's game play to match what Age of Sigmar is doing, if for no other reason then to make it look closer to 40k.
I could see then still releasing The Old World years later to cashing in on older players want a older rank and flank style of game.
That’s very possible as well yes
Hmmm. See I don't quite see it that way. To me, AOS ultimately didn't "replace" Warhammer fantasy. Rather it was a "slide sideways" where it explored a part of the timeline of Warhammer history that indeed was in the same realm that classic fantasy took place. In that sense, WHF didn't go anywhere, since we still had all the older editions to play on our own with our classic armies. As far as the End Times goes, at first I absolutely hated it. But over time I've come to appreciate what GW was doing. It's one of those things where, by the time 8th Edition came around, WHF had been around for nearly THIRTY YEARS. Something had to conclude the story as it were. There had to be some sort of climactic events, which I think made sense.
Yes, it was very painful to see WHF discontinued in 2015. But I felt like it was the right thing to do even if it felt very wrong. For me AOS was at first a mixed bag. But I came to appreciate the new type of round based game. I ended up collecting several factions and built and painted several armies and really came to love the AOS lore.
But I don't see what they did with The End Times as a culmination of bad ideas, far from it.
@@miketike3246 I think it was just bad Story telling.
@@TomatoRoll I hear ya.
The old girl got a glorious send-off, which is much more than most discontinued games get.
This is true, they certainly went big.
Interesting perspective! I think it's a really healthy persepctive to acknowledge that while you wouldn't have made certain choices, those choices have led us to the really positive point we're at now
I must me doing internet Warhammer wrong, having a healthy perspective isn’t how it’s supposed to work 😂.
Thank you
Bold stuff this, Stu!
😆😅
Thoughts and prayers to Paul Sawyer and his family! For me, the end of this video is so much more important than the ongoing debate over the state of Warhammer, etc. Thank you for sharing that Stuart. Not that the history and ongoing legacy of Warhammer Fantasy isn't a healthy and fun thing to discuss of course. But whenever I hear news like this, I'm reminded of those we've lost. And that our time gaming and the times spent with friends and family is very precious - and finite. ❤
Well said!
It’s terribly sad news, certain brings so many things into perspective.
Great ideas! Im also happy with where the current storyline is, and the SDS seems to be much more to my taste than the main studio. Cheers!
SDS is definitely the cool part of GW.
I had actually stopped playing & collecting Warhammer before the end times as life got in the way, so I completely missed it and was surprised to see fantasy gone when I finally came back to it a few years ago, glad I kept all my old stuff and I even though I didn’t like the way they ended it when I looked I am also really glad we have the current Old world game and I’m now all in on this edition
I was playing other games as well at the time, so it somewhat softened the blow. Glad you kept your stuff though and able to bring it back for the new game.
Absolutely agree with your opinion here. I was sad to see WFB go, but we wouldn’t have TOW now if it had stayed. For me it’s not just the rules, but the reintroduction of oldhammer minis back into production and the encouragement to convert new units in the official rules. Fingers crossed the initial success of TOW leads to GW releasing more legacy factions in the future, (as well as more minis from the archives!). Very sad news about Paul, White Dwarf was a great read under his editorship.
It really is incredibly sad
I'm a Warhammer collector completionist. I've got every edition of Warhammer on my shelf going back to 2nd, I've got every soft cover and hard cover rulebook and every army book from 3rd Ed. - 8th Ed., as well as most of the supplements like the 2003 General's Compendium, Triumph and Treachery, etc. All told it's about 80 books and supplements that I've methodically collected over the years. I've also got the limited numbered collectors editions of both WHF 7th and 8th. And now I've got The Old World on the shelf along side them all! I agree 100% with Stuart. I don't think the release old Old World could be what it is if GW had carried on with Warhammer Fantasy beyond the 2015 point.
With regard to Age of Sigmar, yes it was a very bumpy, messy, and controversial move on GW's part. But as the last nine years have gone by, I came to realize that it was actually a genius move on GW's part. By the End Times, WHF was selling VERY poorly. The game had totally stagnated and it had become a lead weight around GW'S leg. But the irony is that at that time, 2011-2015 GW was producing some of the most beautiful, richly detailed books of the highest quality. Moving to round bases with AOS shook things up and created a new IP that eventually took off spectacularly.
And waiting until NOW to finally bring back the Old World and the square bases, etc. only has the impact it does because it was MISSING for so long from GW's arsenal of games.
I feel like with TOW and old friend has returned. And since I have multiple vintage Warhammer armies already painted, it was an easy decision to invest a couple hundred dollars in conversion trays to accommodate the new base sizes.
Your collection sounds amazing. Mine was never that large, and I certainly regret getting rid of so much of what I did have, a lesson truly learned.
Didn't buy a single GW item since they destroyed WFB. Still have several armies and maybe I will start again with this edition
Hopefully this edition will temp you back 🙂
I certainly abandoned GW at End Times. I had been spending loads of money on fantasy, blood bowl, quest and mordheim. I have started spending money again. I taught the wife to play, and she enjoys 6th edition, Quest and pike and shot. Me plus one returned to fold...
I really didn't like the lore of AOS, esp the loss of Bretonnia!!! It was all packed away until lockdown...when the wife and I started playing.
I agree with legacy factions...I want to play my Chao Dwarfs!
Hopefully they still have the Forgeworld moulds, that could play a role in how easy it is for them to come back.
I'm in love with the old world and his lore! and those minis!!! spent tons of money on dwarfs... and I am hoping and praying for khatay, kislev and other factions... but for now I'm saving money for Elves and Empire!
I can’t wait for Empire, I may be slowly building up my forces now 😅😂
It certainly is a shame that Warhammer Fantasy did get destroyed but it is very likely that if the game had been kept it wouldn’t look like Old World looks now. There was a bit of bigger and better bloat as the number of editions wracked up with some of that no doubt relating to GW trying out things to make it become more popular. If they had stuck with it and perhaps tried to leverage off the success of the Total War earlier with a mix of new factions or shake up of existing ones (alliances in the form of army books etc). GW likely could have made a lot of money by realising that nostalgia sells even if the game hadn’t been wiped. I bet if they had dipped into MTO offerings from the Marauder days they would have sold well
All things considered I think we are in a good place. I really want/need for the legacy factions to be core again and really would like this before even seeing a brand new faction. I would be pretty surprised if the existing core were released and then a statement said that is it folks….sales seem to be too good to pass up as they have suggested with their surprise how well it has been going (their surprise really surprised me to be honest lol)
I think the game is benefiting from adage that absence makes the heart grow fonder. I wonder if I would have gotten as much into it if fantasy had just continued especially if the nature of the game had changed
As a side note I don’t really get why 40k outsells everything and marines outselling all the other factions of that game too. They are cool but personally I just never got it.
💯 We’re very lucky to end up where we are now I think.
If The End Times never happened and WHFB was in the main studio today, it wouldn't have any of the classic rules that TOW has.
Yep, that’s the one thing to be thankful for
that is nonsense
It didnt work out well for thousands of players at the time that had formed communities, ran tournaments and laboriously collected models and painted armies. The things that exist now in the Old World Rules, as anyone that played the earlier editions know, did not require blowing up the old world. The rules of Old World now are just the result of iterations of the basic game from 4th to 8th. The rules changes from 8th to The Old World were things that anyone playing the game a lot knew already what to do or what needed changing. I like TOW and have been playing it. They have overcooked monsters and heroes in TOW and the strict kill point system is a crude way to play the game. The Old World rules are an iteration of 8th edition and arriving at them did not require blowing up the Old World.
I agree with most of all of that, just differ slightly on the last point. While TOW could have been what a 9th edition looked like if it was released after 8th, but I feel it would have been different, and over the years the and further editions changed more in the direction that 40K has. I think with all that has happened we got a game that feels like an older edition, not one of 9 years worth of development and new editions.
I’m not saying I like the end times, it was just a fun thought experiment on why what we have now is like it is.
Interesting thoughts Stu, i drifted away from Warhammer after v5 and i doubt i would have come back if OW was just v9 but this feels a bit different, a proper nod to the older editions ( i started with 1st) and a bit like middle earth, not having endless changes and refreshes works for us veteran players.
I certainly agree with you there
Definitely agree. AOS and modern 40K are great for people who want what they offer, but they aren’t for me - in either my preferences or who they’re made for. SDS is a much better home for Fantasy in my opinion.
I know the people looking after the game are truly passionate about what they’re trying to do with it, and while that won’t help price, availability etc, it’s nice to know that SDS have love for what they’re trying to do.
I'll play Beastmen anywhere, try and stop me! 😂This was really well thought out IMO, I also hope they re-release the Mighty Fortress and maybe new Siege Scenarios.
Best wishes to Paul and his family, I love the articles he put out and am very sorry to hear about the health problems he is facing.
Edit: will be purchasing from Warlord games in the future, their selection is lovely.
I’d love to see a return to siege, would be amazing.
Looking forward to seeing more Warhammer the Old World literature. Recently read the Brettonia novel. It was a nice start. Now let's see more. Give me a good William King Warhammer the Old World novel. Maybe an early Gotrek novel.
I really hope they do more fiction, both Graham McNeil and Gav Thorpe have told me they’d do it if asked, and would love to see Bill King do something. Sadly I don’t think Gotrek was born for another 100 years or so after the old world timeline starts.
Here at the early point of my watch of the video, I’ll partially agree.
Blowing up Fantasy did irreparable damage to my gaming group, as well as my trust in GW - But, now that The Old World is finally here, something new is being built up. The game is incredibly fun, but also has some (in my mind) serious issues and pitfalls (which I put down to being teething issues).
I’m fully hoping for and anticipating that the “legacy” factions will get reintroduced in due time - Anything less would keep TOW being a lesser game than it could be (he says, heavily biased by the fact that all armies we’d kept in my gaming group were all legacied 😂).
I really hope the legacy factions return (or start to) in a couple of years.
That is a bold statement my friend
But as a current player of a fan version i must agree, without the end times i wouldnt have this version
It’s taken a while to come good, and it definitely wasn’t planned, but funny how things turn out.
Really sad news about Paul Sawyer, loved WD under him.
Yes it’s really terrible news
I do wonder and kinda believe that they could have kept the setting and just revamped the rules. If anything the End Times just demarcates Warhammer Fantasy and AoS and it could have been executed a lot better (though there were some really cool scenes). In the end at least the Old World is here which will explore a very specific period of time in greater detail than before. Also, I do believe that the Legacy Factions will eventually return, that’s just money sitting on the table they’re not tapping into.
I think as we see more factions getting their AOS ‘glow up’, those ranges are updated and old fantasy models removed, then they will start to come back.
AoS was the beginning of streamlining rules to bring in more players, 40K has gone the same route. There’s no doubt had they kept the Fantsy setting, it’d still resemble AoS in rules,
Sadly I think so
You obviously have not played the previous rules or even know anything about them to make such a nonsensical claim. There was a major stream lining of rules from WHFB 3rd to 4th. 4th to 8th was also a process of streamlining rules.
I agree about the clean tidying up and streamlining from 1st/2nd/3rd to 4th and beyond, 4th was the big change. The rest was more a slow evolving change.
AOS was clearly a bigger change with a completely different kind of game. I think that’s obviously the point being made here, not sure the hyperbole is required.
It’s back and it’s here to stay. I missed it first time round and I can only imagine how pissed off the community must’ve been but it’s BACK! Chin up and charge the mountain, it’s here and be happy for that. Only thing I’m pisssed about is no more gotrek and Felix novels. They’re my favourite books and I adore them! Hopefully we get more old world lore and books.im sure they’ll re add all the factions with story progression etc. people seem to forget that this is being handled by the “ second” team. If we keep buying, playing and talking. Then they will add more factions. Keep your heads up and play the long game:)
I fully endorse this comment 🙂
Excellent attitude! Love to see it.
I look at Warhammer: The Old World as a sort of soft reboot of the setting. An alternate timeline that may or may not lead to Karl Franz as emperor in 200 years, and may or may not end with another ultimate Chaos victory. At least, that's what I hope it is. They could even make that an in-universe thing. Perhaps The Old Ones put in a fail-safe to the world. Perhaps Tzeentch himself is unhappy with how things ended and is _changing_ things around. Who knows 😅 Anyway, pretty excited with TOW. A few rules I'd like to see tightened up, but overall it's really cool.
That’s a very fun way to look at it. For what it’s worth I’m not sure they will ever (or intend to) get close to the old timeline, so much space in the new timeline. We are then all free to forget what happens from 2513 onwards (for pretend it never happens).
There’s been 3 times where I’ve been entirely consumed by the Hobby - Storm of Chaos, End Times, and Old World (the prelude of the Great Chaos Invasion) to me what I seem to enjoy most from Warhammer are Apocalypse Level events. Where Magic and Chaos are it’s apex and the ludicrous and unimaginable can take place because reality begins to bend. I do enjoy AoS too, not least because there are literal Gods leading Armies. I thoroughly Enjoyed End Times, with or without the Current Old World. I personally cannot Wait until the full blown invasion where we see Asavar Kul .
I’m really looking forward to the Great War against chaos as well, but I’m also enjoying the scene setting and build up to it.
@@MiniatureRealms yes, building up the Narrative is good, I’m happy however that we know what its working towards. Old Warhammer was always in Limbo until they were Brave enough to bring us an End of the World.
Oof not watched the video yet but I'm getting both my popcorn and my torch and pitchfork ready! Only joking, it's certainly a bold take but I'm happy to hear you out.
OK, so now that I have watched the video, I think I agree with you for the most part. As I said to someone else in this comment section I do wonder what a continued storyline after a semi-successful chaos invasion could have looked like, what new factions could have been introduced or how existing factions could have evolved or been updated. Maybe bringing in a lot of the AoS ideas like sylvaneth, nighthaunt, idoneth, karadron, and the separate chaos factions. But I do really love the classic vibes of the old world and I'm really enjoying collecting all the factions I wished I could afford when I was younger and painting them to a far higher standard than I could when I was a teenager.
Having said that, I think the Old World has quite a lot of issues which need to be ironed out for it to realise its full potential. It's clearly not been seen as a priority by some factions within GW. It's had a reduced scope from when it was initially announced and the delays, stock issues, legacy factions, and lack of significant new model releases has lead to a lack of confidence among a lot of the consumer-base. I think this has caused anxiety about its longevity among fans of the game and a tentativeness about getting into it from those who are maybe unsure. Essentially it looks like a bit of a cash grab playing on nostalgia.
I don't really like the new chaos lore either, chaos is meant to be undivided when it's at its strongest and most unified so the lore doesn't make sense. It seems more like an excuse not to bring in some of the faction specific stuff which has been moved over to AoS, or an attempt to discourage people to use AoS models in their old world armies.
Despite all the above, I'm an old world super fan and have spent far too much money and time on it over the past 9 months. I'm currently on my 5th army with plans for 2 more by the end of the year!
Anyway, great video :)
Thank you.
Some really great points there, and it’s really nice seeing what other people think in regard to this. I definitely want to explore and theorise what a post Storm of Chaos Warhammer could have been, might have to record a chat with the Jordan Sorcery about it.
@@MiniatureRealmsyeah that would be great I’d certainly watch!
I really don't care about End Times now when TOW is here. I actually had a blast with it - being able to form a major chaos incursion army (WoC + Beastmen). What I really hate is what happened AFTER End Times (Age of Sigmar). Not gonna lie, I really hate its lore, its cosmology - and I dislike some models (some I like tho' - like DoK Khinerai Lifetakers, the best harpies we ever had, totally using them in TOW). As for legacy factions - they will be back hopefully. They may just release a DLC named The New World - with Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Sartosa Vampires and Pestilence Skaven. It may even take place in different times than TOW, since the distance is so great, allowing GW to tell another story. I really dislike ogre army (I think their place is where they currently are - being mercs). I really like Chaos Dwarfs tho' - and hope they get an army at some point (or at least some merc units to use in chaos armies). The Plain of Zharr is Warhammer's equivalent of Mordor, Dark Lands are HUGE - many stories to tell there! As for daemons - I'd be OK if they are just summonable by WoC and beastmen wizards.
I agree with so much of this, I definitely think we will get the legacy armies, but they might have to take slightly different forms as you have said. Plenty of room to do that if they have to.
It was so badly handled, not sure they even learnt their lesson
They certainly handled it very badly
I played 6th-8th, and I absolutely loved 8th, and while I was kind of ambivalent about the ending of the setting (the insane rules of the End Times are still fun to play from time to time) I'm glad to see the setting return with actual support and returning models I was unable to collect before. The Old World has heaps of problems and needs a lot of errata/FAQing, but I'm playing the hell out of it and it's great having so many people jumping back in.
I can't wait to see where TOW goes with the mention of continuing Arcane Journals after the initial core factions receive theirs, I think that format will do lots for keeping the game healthy with additional Armies of Infamy and hopefully journals that take place during specific times and include scenarios that are based on specific historic battles. I also hope that we don't get a second edition any time soon the way that AoS seems to be getting a new edition every 3-4 years. I would however like to see what a return to true army books might look like for the old world. With Universal Special Rules being the new standard though, I wonder if they would even be necessary but I would like to maybe see army adjustments/fixes happen this way.
8th was loads of fun, they had a plan for big units and even bigger spells and it certainly worked. I enjoyed it very much.
Definitely lots to look forward to in the future as well.
I was long out of the hobby when GW killed WFB, so i have no feeling towards that era at all. If TOW had returned any sooner in my life, I can safely say I wouldnt have been a customer. If WFB had continued uninterupted, I wouldn't be a customer today. I also can't see a big chance of myself being a customer in a year if GW doesn't fix the game so that so that blocks of Core infantry matter.
I really hope they can find a way to encourage more regular infantry
I really don't like "The Old World". Not only did they remove many factions, they refused to update ANCIENT units and sold them like they are new and revamped.
The skeletons for the Tomb Kings are the same as the skeleton models form 1998(!), these models are older than me and are sold for their weight in gold. The End Times was bad, real bad.
Sadly replacing all the old models with new ones would have been too big a job and the game wouldn’t have returned.
@@MiniatureRealms Nah, man I don't believe that for a second. They already have the vampire counts (which they REMOVED) skeletons as a base for the model.
They are just greedy.
That’s cool dude, I disagree but the world’s full of different opinions. With opposing opinions on the old world it’s not a surprise we don’t agree on this.
@@MiniatureRealms Yeah sure, I just think GW is getting away with it a little bit TOO easy.
Can't defend the End Times or how they handled it, but appreciate a diff perspective. WFB went downhill because of their ineptitude with writing rules and a bad unsustainable business model, and this edition, while I like what I see so far and am glad fantasy rank and flank is back in Warhammer, will go down the same path if they don't correct the past's power creep and bad rules writing, or their bloated business model.
Let hope it’s better this time
I was sceptical when I saw the headline but your argument is persuasive. Even if WHFB hadn’t become a skirmish game it would have been “streamlined” and - as you say - we’ve got that with 40K and AoS. TOW provides a richer, more flavourful alternative with motherly love tables and pigeon bombs. And my conclusion last few months is that’s what I want personally.
Yeah I think that’s what may have happened, and while I like some games like that, the ones I really get fully absorbed into are the kind you describe.
I will say I agree because if it never happened I probably would’ve not gotten any good deals for my dwarfs
However I will also say I think the end times lore was really poorly executed
I can’t argue with that, much of it seemed very rushed.
What do u think if the old world didn't do the End Times timeline instead, we are getting an alternative timeline instead. Let say the End Times kinda happen but Chaos didn't win the forces of Order prevail?
I’m really not sure, so many fun possibilities, I do think the game would have streamlined like 40K has done though.
Ive still not forgiven them for Vampire Counts, but i broadly agree with you. Without AoS we wouldnt have had the accelleration in sculpting quality that weve seen and can now benefit from with ToW. The ends it turns out, do indeed justify the means...
Very good point on the sculpting advances.
Controversial opinion; Nothing that's been created for AoS couldn't have been added to the Warhammer World plus there's so much they never got round to adding that did exist.
Opinion (that can never be proven though); If Warhammer Fantasy Battle had as much money and time invested in it after 8th edition as AoS has had there would have been a huge popularity boost for it. People try to justify Warhammer being shut down by saying AoS is more popular, but GW gained that popularity with masses of investment that Warhammer had been starved of for years.
Finally, on your points, the Warhammer World after Storm of Chaos/Magic events would have been far different than it was before them. Just like Horus Heresy and 40k The Old World and Warhammer Fantasy Battle could easily exist within the same setting but separated by a massive event so either side of it on the same timeline, kind of how AoS and Old World does. Warhammer Fantasy could have even adopted round bases and left the regiment blocks behind after Storm of Chaos just like AoS does and you could even have had that.
Cynical opinion, for all the attempts at justification and business cases put forward the end of Warhammer and creation of AoS had far more to do with the humiliation of the Chapter House debacle and the moves were 90% motivated by the desire to have a copyrighted setting and factions.
Totally agree, I've often thought of an alternative timeline following Archaon's semi-successful invasion where you get sea elves, sky dwarfs, tree spirits and ghost armies. Stormcast are a bit of a step too far though.
@@The_Captain40k at the end of the day Dwarfs were already making it into the air with Gyro Copters/Bombers, tree spirits already existed and there's no reason why a race of Sea Elves couldn't have been hiding themselves all this time just give them a different origin story. Their emergence could have purely been due to the "End Times" events putting their home and/or resources under threat. Even Stormcast, exactly as they are in the lore, Sigmars attempt to combat Chaos resurrected hero's with their spirits stolen from Nagash. No idea why that couldn't happen in the Warhammer World.
@@chrisbatchelor3759 there’s actually plenty of references to mysterious sea elves in the lore. If I were to rewrite the story I would have had the vortex fail, ulthuan break apart, and a horde of khornate daemons and warriors pour out. I would have launched with a caledor themed faction of high elves where all the dragons had reawoken and caledor dragon tamer returned, facing off against essentially the same khorne force from the first AoS box.
@@The_Captain40k that's awesome! Then the second box could be the campaign of the Dead, the Legions of Nagash, Skeletons of all races (including powerful Beastmen, Orc and Ogre Skeletons) and Spirit Hosts (instead of two separated factions of Bonereapers and Nighthaunt) taking on a COMBINED alliance of Elves, Men and Dwarfs (Cities of Sigmar). Third could have been a war for Albion with the boxset the Giants of Albion army (sons of Behemet) vs Fimir (instead of Kruleboyz, as much as I have an army they're just Swamp Orcs to me, should have introduced a new race). 4th box could have been Skaven invading Tilea and mixed Mercenary armies. Everything having to be around Stormcast limits the story and scope of the setting and makes everyone burnt out on one range over and over again.
Some really interesting points there Chris, I wouldn’t disagree with very much at all really. So many ways they could have gone, and I guess we will never know. Like I said in the video, my opinion is mostly based on liking what we have now, and can’t see a path to that without what’s happened before.
Honestly, I don't have that much trust in GW. I don't believe that just because TOW plays prior in the timeline than the old WHFB, that that would mean that GW leaves the timeline of WHFB untouched. I think they will slowly rewrite its history - not completely of course, but with changes that cater to todays society, and that is not necessarily what us Oldhammer fans want. So I will stick with 6th edition. Cool that some of the old minis are seeing a re-release though. : )
That’s fair enough, and 6th edition is a really great game.
Stuart, there are as many opinions as grains of sand on the average beach, and everyone is entitled to mine.. oops I mean /theirs/ *LOL* So who cares if yours is different to other people's? I don't :)
Personally I think GW messed things up ending WH Fantasy, and the reason is simple. Patience, or lack thereof. GW dumped Fantasy and not having the patience to wait, as you have, for GW to launch the Old World years later, players left and many just haven't returned. Say Fantasy was only 10% of GW income and 80% of players haven't come back.. that 8% of revenue GW have lost. 40K and Age of Sigmar would have to make that up, and I don't see that happening, especially with the manufacturing issues you've previously mentioned with lines out of stock almost as soon as they're announced.
In their place I wouldn't have dumped Fantasy totally, and then tried to diversify into other games systems stretching an already struggling manufacturing output. I'd have /added/ ONE - not several - line and pitched /that/ to Fantasy players, and managed the transition properly. Then when the new system picks up Fantasy can be dropped because its replacement /already/ exists. One analogy is the UK v US attitude to aircraft carriers; the UK ditched the last one and /then/ started building its replacement. By contrast the US Nimitz class carriers will still be in service when their replacements are launched.
Fantasy may not have been making the money that 40K was, but doesn't that point to a demographic issue in that older players in general played Fantasy and younger players played 40K? I'd look at the average ages and pitch the Fantasy range at younger modellers just by releasing a simpler Army Book aimed at them, so you get two books per series, one for older players, and one for younger. Much cheaper than developing and marketing an entire new range. You keep the loyal older players and entice the next generation - maybe the older players' children.
To me that makes much more business sense than what GW actually did.
TBH I see the release of the Old World as an admission by GW that they screwed up and it's a belated attempt to regain the Fantasy players who have left. You only have to look at the re-introduction of armies like the Tomb Kings, which I see as GW admitting they shouldn't have ditched them to start with. Will it get players back into the fold? Maybe yes maybe no. Definitely no if some factions /don't/ return as players of those won't come back.
The price is another issue. GW has always been expensive compared to others. In the interim Fantasy players have probably moved on to alternate /cheaper/ game systems. Especially in a 'cost of living crisis' are players going to want to spend /more/ when the game system they have works? I severely doubt it. Pitching simpler systems at younger players, who can't afford GW prices - and they're not pocket money! I can't see that working either.
Would Fantasy be in the place the Old World is now? Maybe so /but/ with the advantage that no players would have been lost and the transition been smoother and managed properly - 'properly' in my opinion that is :)
Thank you for sharing Julian 🙂
Im thinking- what would get your criticism now with TOW? I also love it but „dragonhammer” should be nerfed significantly in my opinion….
I agree that dragons, well flying behemoths in general seem to be a little too dominant, and this is highlighted further by infantry sadly looking weak. I’m currently looking at Empire Army lists, and I don’t seem to get much for my points these days. The core of the game is very good, hopefully some tweaks can make it better.
I could have done without the hasty and at times sloppy End Times lore, but that aside I really appreciate where the system currently stands. For one, TOW being relegated to Specialist Games means that we are being spared the FOMO that goes hand-in-hand with the frantic release schedule of mainline games like Wh40k or AoS. I also love how un-modern the ruleset feels with its emphasis on rank and flank and the granular listbuilding it allows, including kitting out your unit champions with magic items. Arcane Journals also seem at times like a time capsule of GW from 20 years ago with unit entries that are unmoored from any existing kits and instead contain those White Dwarf-style text boxes with tips on how to convert them. In hindsight I am even oddly thankful for the fact that GW decided to re-release the old models that I have seen a thousand times by now, since it encouraged me to make a jump into 3d printing to explore alternative miniature makers, who picked up where GW left and created whole alternative model lines in the intervening years. I doubt I would be re-posing STLs in Blender and flexing my hobby skills, if GW were to toss brand spanking new models on par with the recent AoS releases.
Yeah some of that lore was a little rushed (I think it may have been, they released so much in a short time), I really enjoyed the Skaven novel though.
Can’t disagree with any of your other observations either really.
I love the end times narrative, those books were awesome in my eyes as some of my firest real introduction to the old world setting (even if my boy Vlad got done dirty). Im also happy as hell with Age of Sigmar, both the lore and the game are in a great place at the moment and the miniatures are gorgeous. Im just getting into the Old World as the talk around it got more positive and its shown it has legs im happy to invest in the setting (Khazukan, Kazakit-ha!). Honestly I'm just stoked that we live in a world where we have all these awesome games to play!
I wish more people had that kind of positive attitude. I’m of course being a bit playful here with the subject, I was sad at the time to see Fantasy go, but now we’re in a healthier place after all I think.
Rude comment on the way out
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Anyone who thinks that Games Workshop PLC cares about anything but profit is deluding themselves...I learned this in the mid 90s and since resuming interest in the hobby in the past year...all I can say is that nothing has changed in almost 30 years
Of course they’re a PLC, that’s not even up for debate. Luckily there’s lots of creatives there who do care about what they’re writing/sculpting/painting etc, so we do still get some great stuff.
I will make a big effort to resist the urge to dislike the video, don´t want to be an internet angry person XD
😂 Thank you. Hopefully my point of view comes across, it’s not that I actually like the end times, more that I’m enjoying the old world, and think we only have what we have now because of what’s happened.
Wow, which book was that?
It’s more a discussion around what ending the game had meant for the release of the old world.
@@MiniatureRealms Oh no meaning, what WHFB edition is that book? Looks very cool!
@Valathiril The Red and yellow one was 8th edition 🙂
@@MiniatureRealms Thank you sir!
Ahhhh, the glorious hard cover rulebook of 8th Edition! The last two editions of WHF had the most absolutely GORGEOUS rulebooks and army books. I've got both hard cover rulebooks as well as the collectors edition versions of 7th and 8th which have special cloth-textured leather-textured covers and slip cases, as well as all the army books for both editions. Stuart is 100% on the money when he says that the WHF books GW was producing from 2007-2015 were amazing quality and were absolutely packed with content and lore.
The ultimate comment
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Raoud bases are herzy ;]
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Herezy deteded...
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0:45 riggged...
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Nope
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