Why is No One Talking About Four Roses?
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- Опубліковано 14 кві 2024
- Another contemplative one today. I've had a break from Four Roses specific content for a little over a year. I've seen prices go up, but availability seem to go up as well, at least from the gift shop releases and their spread across secondary platforms. Though in my time away, I still haven't seen many folks gravitating to the brand. It isn't just the single barrels, their four core products also only seem to hit lists few and far between.
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Fun to see you drop some Roses content again. I have also noticed a slowdown in the 4R pick purchasing. I think access and availability to 4R picks has been about the same in the last couple of years for me personally. If I had to guess , it may be the inconsistency in some of the picks paired up with the pricing. For the most part , these picks are all north of 100$ and not everyone has "figured out" which recipe(s) they prefer over the other. For those not fortunate to all the access, this might deter them from continuing to seek them out or at least not as frequently. When it comes to talking about roses, you are right, things are sort of quiet but I have noticed this with most youtubers, bloggers and general bourbon influencers as well. YOU need to keep talking about Roses tho! Things go in waves... cheers Brian!
The influencers and other youtubers etc is what is intriguing to me. Some of these folks have access to everything if they just ask for it (from their community or otherwise) so it would seem it is more of a choice not to.
@@abandonbourbon I Agree completely and also wonder why they chose not to. Maybe that would be a topic for Roundtable etc? would love to know all the youtubers reasons as to why...
I’m in NJ, and I can find small batch, small batch select and single barrel pretty much everywhere. We find single barrel at $45 here consistantly, and that’s one of my favorite core bottles, I love it. And I think pretty much every one agrees that it’s a damn good pour. But if I had to guess why your not seeing content creators talk about it much, I’d say it’s because there is so much new stuff out there, that they are focusing on that. I watch a lot of them, slb, you, junkies, brewzle, echoes in eternity, etc, and they are always looking for what’s new.
I'll start by saying that my love for Bourbon remains, but my excitement for bourbon in general isn't quite what it used to be, with the exception of 4 Roses picks. That's one of the few bottles that is an immediate buy, and that I actively hunt for. I have a lot, and a few really good ones, including a Tier 6 OESO and Tier 6 OBSQ (2018s) from The Wine and Cheese Place in St Louis, two very well known honey barrels and the some of the best to ever come out of Stl, only bested by the Planters House OBSK pick from 2020. The funny thing is, the best I've ever had was a random T3 OBSF from Binnys, it makes no sense, but that thing was truly astonishing lol. I would love more 4R content, absolutely YES. I find it so fascinating.
Nashville TN gets about 10-15 sibs a year and they all sell out quickly but I agree, people don't talk about them like they should.
It's the perfect product to me due to the 10 recipes, you get good variance.
The age has been dropping which is a shame
I live in a control state that doesn’t get a ton of them. The county (that holds the state capital) I live in normally gets one per year. At the same time, neighboring counties also sometimes get one. so sometimes I’m able to get 5-6 a year and sometimes I swing and miss if I’m not around during the one week they are hitting stores. Sometimes it’s one case at a time per store in the large counties with many stores all getting a taste and sometimes they put the whole barrel in one store.
I’ve been to the distillery twice in the last six months and each time they had two different SiB master distiller picks. I also have recently made a couple trades to get LEs. I’m surprised at the “value” compared to things like birthday which is typically lower proof and lower age. They retail for about the same as each other but I can get 4RLE for about half the price on secondary.
Always love the roses content and would always welcome more. I like the idea of comparing modern vs older bottlings. Some of the recent picks I’ve found have been 8.5-9.5 years old whereas the ones I got a couple years ago were at least 10 and sometimes 11 and change. Is that prevalent other places or just the ones I’ve been seeing? Especially with the cost increases, that’s a little disappointing
I've seen the ages all over lately, 8ish years up to 11. You make a great point with the mention of the LE value. I still think one of the few lasting undervalued LE products by comparison (though their retail is quickly catching up if not exceeded).
I think part of why not many ppl are talking about Four Roses is because they don’t have new & different products coming out each year constantly like some other brands. They just pretty much stick to their core lineup, which is solid. They don’t do finishing or follow trends. Also, they only really have one major LE bottle that comes out each year, compared to other brands that have several. They have really classic branding & marketing that isn’t flashy.
As far as picks of SBs, I’m in a decent sized Midwest college town, and I can generally come by a couple (1-3) SB BPs each year.
I will say, I did like the brand refresh last year.
I think I can find four or five picks each year. I've gotten an OESO, OBSV and OESK in the last year. All of these ranged from $80 to $110 at retail. The OESK was a bit spicy compared to what I would expect from an OE barrel. I did pick up the tasting experience pack online and that was great to experience all ten recipes. I think a lot of people don't clamor for Four Roses like they do for other brands. I feel like MGP brands try to taste like Four Roses yet more people seem to hype the MGP brands.
You are one of the first I've heard of doing the tasting experience. Do you recommend it? I debated bringing it in to Seelbach's and pairing it with a virtual tasting with everyone.
@@abandonbourbon I really liked it. Having the ability to try each recipe allowed me to find the differences and figure out which recipes I should be looking for. For a fan of Four Roses, it's a great experience.
@@BrianVaughn Which did you gravitate toward?
Yes please do more on 4R, particularly a study on their barrel proof sib’s flavor progression from a few years past to today would be great. Including any trends u see in proof and age changes over the years.
Noted!
You would think in a city as large as Houston there would be a plethora of 4R barrel strength store picks available but they simply can't be found. Rarer than Stagg.
Oh wow
My theory is because their core lineup doesn’t excite bourbon drinkers (in the same way as other distilleries) and the barrel strengths are too rare for many people.
I think Four Roses would benefit from offering a more readily available barrel strength expression, a bi-yearly release or 3x/year like Elijah Craig BP. Every one could be a different recipe/age which I think would excite people
Interesting, and I don't disagree. Would this be a more widely available single barrel run, or a smaller than 4 recipe run in your mind?
I live in Northern Indiana and in the last 3+ years I have lived here I haven't seen any bottles other than the regular ones. (SB 100 proof, small batch and small batch select, etc). Even the store down the street that sells rare bottles for museum prices I have never seen a Four Roses one. He has almost all other unicorns from other distilleries. I had to order a Four Roses SB BS online and got the OESQ which is good. I would buy more but never see any rare bottles here like other brands. Not sure this helps but this is my experience.
totally helps, thank you for responding!
Well it certainly is gaining retail space in Eastern Nebraska. Where it used to be only in the biggest liquor stores, its now on grocery store shelves. The rare specialties still require some hunting. It makes me happy to see the brand getting some attention locally. I enjoy every level of Four Roses, yellow label to single barrels, each has a purpose. 😊
I think the most exciting thing coming out of four roses right now is the four gate double barrel four roses pics.
Several folks mentioning that here!
Lately the Mr has been going back to the 4Roses Single Barrel local county pick that we have on the shelf more. We live in a controlled state so the limited editions are hard to come across, but if I see a SB Barrel Proof recipe I do not have I’ll grab it for him.
You pose a great question. I'm with you; I don't know why people are not talking about 4 Roses. I would love to see 4 Roses content along the line of comparing a B recipe against an E recipe (OBSK vs OESK as an example). Cheers!
Great suggestion!
Definitely do content where you compare runs and some of the recent bottles to get people excited about it again. I have the 2019LE, 2021LE, and 2016 Brent Elliot select LE with a good amount of single barrels. I just hit my max on buying the single barrels and let them sit until I finish one since it has become available. I also believe the latest runs are a bit hot and have less of a fruit punch regardless of recipe. I’m not sure what would have changed in their production
I'm not sure either, but definitely seems to be a trend (and expensive to keep trying around to see if barrels disprove this.)
Some of the issue is that they only have three flagship bottles, whereas most other distilleries have a lot of other options. Most bourbon collectors I know of are confused with their single barrel recipes and which ones to target, so they don't even bother due to the price. Four Roses should give each recipe its own unique bottle or label and rename them to something more catchy. That way people have an easier time identifying them and know which to try and find. Sometimes a catchy name is enough to draw attraction.
Love four roses
I have a nice collection of Four Roses. It's got a complexity in a class of it's own. I feel it's not as popular for one reason. It's the 25-35% Rye in the mash bill. The most popular bourbon's are all low to no rye in their mash bills. Just a theory.
I would think the same, but MGP products with higher rye content seem to perform really well in the competition cycles. The question then is, what is different about MGP high ryes vs Roses?
I think who like four rose still gets those bottles pretty regularly. Content follows current trends I feel.
I still look out for good single barrel picks.
I personally love the brand. I was lucky enough to get a 135th anniversary LE & it’s probably the best bottle I own. So that being said my best guess is maybe the fact that them having 10 different recipes & many different flavor profiles possibly hinders them from having a core base of hype behind a particular bottle.
I’ve wanted to dig into FR for a while… the small batch select is great. I’m just intimidated by the recipes and don’t want to spend the time/money trying multiple single barrels to see what I like.
Great feedback. Do you have access to the tasting set, or would you try it if so?
@@abandonbourbon I have thought about it for sure! Would you suggest it? Four roses is pretty prevalent in all forms in Oklahoma.
I’ve purchased a few picks on secondary. I try to keep some F, O and V picks on hand. They don’t have the range of offerings like other brands and that contributes to the lack of enthusiasm/fandom. Just a really narrow market. I’m fine w it though.
I feel like too, even given the variance, if one were to try a lot the variance can both be noticeable.... and less noticeable simultaneously.
I’m not experienced with any newer SiB’s. I’m still sitting on older bottles. It does seem like the secondary market on 4R SiB’s has went down as well as availability, especially in Kentucky, has increased. Cheers
Cheers Robert!
I think the BS does two things to people; confuses them or entices them to go down the rabbit hole. I think the 10 recipes are really cool but some are so confused by the recipes and tiers and warehouse that tough to know which ones are the “good ones”.
I cant speak to the 4R limited edition stuff cause I never see it or when I do it’s $400+. But the 4R barrel proof Sib’s have been pretty accessible where I live in So Cal over past 4 years, and they’ve been getting more accessible every year, with a slightly higher price of $120-$135 or so, though some stores still sell them for $100.
The proof and ages do seem to have been dropping slightly as the years go by? Not sure on that I’d have to check, but i do remember noticing that. At least in my neck of the woods. Maybe a contributing factor to why you’re saying you’ve noticed flavor quality in them has been dropping?
I think they’re not talked about as much as other bottles for 2 reasons, one simply because of the lower proof. They range from 105 to 115 proof, so not gonna give u the flavor intensity of a Stagg, ECBP, Jack Daniels Barrel Proof Sib, or even a Russell’s Reserve Sib. And two, they’re everywhere now, seems like the amount released has grown every year. They stay on shelves longer than they used to, at least over here. There are 2 liquor stores that have leftover bottles on the shelf from last Xmas as of today.
I love them, and I also love just their regular 100 proof Sib’s which are waaay underrated. I like they’re not talked about, more for me 😊.
So would you say lack of continual changing products and/or them sitting causing them to be a little less FOMO or demand there stops folks from thinking they have to have it, in your market?
@@abandonbourbon yes I’d say FOMO has dropped for them at least out here. Maybe cause supply and price both increased? I just saw another liquor store that’s selling them for $150 out here, 3rd store I know of that has them in stock (leftover bottles from Xmas 2023).
They used to fly off shelves in 2021-22, would only last a couple days max.
Four Roses SiBs have historically performed very poorly in blinds for me, even losing out to their own Small Batch Select on occasion. It seems quality may be down from several years ago, but prices keep going up. Haven't seen anything above tier 3 in the last two years despite getting a lot of picks in our area.
Thanks for the response. I agree on the blinds part, which is wild because on their own they can be so enjoyable. What do you think makes them score so poorly in that format?
@@abandonbourbon they tend to come across a bit sharp and unbalanced compared to other distilleries' products even when those are at a lower age and higher proof. Additionally, Four Roses seems to lack in mouthfeel and finish, which is definitely important to me.
The interest isn't there for several reasons.
UA-camrs hardly talk about single barrel picks since they won't get views talking about a one-off release that only a hundred people can own.
The picks are still incredibly hard to come by outside of the distillery.
People get intimidated by the ten recipes and experience paralysis by analysis.
Floral notes of high rye scare "classic" drinkers.
Above all, with only one special/LE out each year, if Four Roses released its own double oak, rather than Four Gate doing it with Kelvin Sixty, the hype would be insane.
You make several great points. I've noticed it too people are not generally a fan of the floral-ish profiles.
One of the first bourbons I ever tasted was 4R SmB. Been a fan ever since. Not many 4R options in MI other than the standard 4 bottles. I dont think I've ever seen a store pick in this state. But the 4 basics are widely available. I am sure a true 4R aficionado geeks out at the different bills and strains options in store picks, etc. But in my opinion, unfortunately, that does not resonate with the bourbon community at large. Everyones coming out with a finished this, blended that, or age stated releases. In the meantime, 4R since they are holding steady with 4, are getting drowned by the hypsters out there touting the next great releases, bourbons of the year, etc. Blenders and NDPs in the market move around from blends, to finishes, to special releases, all within months. I'll chalk it up to the hype in the market right now, taters and FOMOs. But if JD can get creative with new ideas, new releases and create hype.......so can 4R. If they don't want to do that, then maybe just sit tight......the bourbon community will eventually return to them....maybe. Rye, double oak, toasted, wheater, 4GR, age stated..........I'd gladly throw money at 4R for something new like that. Get creative, make it accessible. Until then,........I'll wait until I get the urge to buy a single barrel again......maybe in a few months. Cheers.
Do you think if markets began to see more single barrels, and allowed folks to try more of the variance, intrigued would go up... or go down?
@@abandonbourbon With a good marketing campaign that can spell it out for the buyers (most dont understand the recipes) and then having the product introduced widely it will create a lot of hype and intrigue in my opinion. (face it, right now its all about hype) Age stating it would create even more! I've seen enough store pick BP reviews that make be believe that it could be a hitter of a product line.
I have never seen a Barrel Proof Sib out in any stores. So I don’t think the availability is as you state for me.
Well that's a shame. Even so, what about their standard offerings?
@@abandonbourbon I think the Sib 100 proof are the best of the normal shelf products. But I prefer Bardstown Origins or Green River bourbon over it. The shelf offerings are ok to good but doesn’t stand out. Appreciate your efforts.
Great feedback, and you’re right about competition in the price range. Will be curious to see if others share your experiences.
I know for me beyond the core lineup it just gets too expensive and hard to find. And without new/special releases they don't get the same media coverage boost as other distilleries. Not many people vouch for the budget Four Roses or small batch either. The standard single barrel gets a lot of love in its price range but then the small batch select has a lot of competition in its range.
🥃
The single barrel and the codes for batches gets confusing.
So for you more of a lack of understanding how to decode?
@@abandonbourbon yes lack of understanding for sure. And is there a single barrel and a single barrel barrel proof ?
@@peterjanetatos7061 They have single barrel barrel strengths that rotate recipes, and then a standard 100 proof single barrel on the shelf that is always OBSV. Not to be confused with the fact they DID do 100 proof single barrels of other recipes. Maybe they got rid of the TYPE of product people want because the proof wasn't where people want it.
I’d call myself an intermediate bourbon drinker/enthusiast (in the middle). From my viewpoint, it’s too many recipes to stay 0:05 on top of. I think if Four Roses cut their recipes in half or to three, they’d be spoken about more frequently.
It can be very intimidating, especially compounded with lack of access. It doesn't seem like the sample set sold all that well, at least here in Kentucky, but I felt like a lot of people would have wanted something like that?
@@abandonbourbon it was too expensive for what it was lol. I did the bourbon trail last month with some buddies and we went to the Four Roses Distillery. I think the sampling kit would be more appealing if it was cheaper. 130🦌 for 50mL samples is egregious.
4Roses is frustrating, there's not a lot of access, there's different recipes which you may or may not prefer, there's a ton variation in proof/tiers, prices are high, and secondary remains high for high proof/tiers.
The shelfers should come with more specific recipes and the price points are weird. Small batch can be 45 around MD/DC - not good
Great insight. Do you wish there was another, cheaper option outside of yellow label or single barrel? Or just too much variance in their portfolio to really gather if you like them or not?
@abandonbourbon yeah I think the yellow label is a weak entry point, I'd love to see it at 90p+ for a great mixer. Lower small batch cost to compete w/EC and KC9, and either give single barrels more age or put out all recipes regularly, and finally put out SmB Select as Barrel Strength.
I think it boils down to lack of innovation. When you look at the major distilleries over the last 4-5 years, there have been so many new, innovative products dropping. Look at Beam with Hardin’s Creek, the Knob Creek age stated bottles, Maker’s Mark with the Wood Finishing series and Cellar Aged, Jack Daniel’s with their variety of new offerings, Wild Turkey with their age stated products. Four Roses has an LE that comes out once per year. That’s it. Now I’m not saying they need to start finishing in Amburana or Double Oaking, but what about just starting with some age stated barrel proof small batches or something. Let’s face it, FR has become boring and there’s no excitement around the brand. No one clamors for their next release.
Agree 💯
Super interesting take! I wished they didn't do away with the Limited Edition Single Barrel bottling... but aside from that do you just think they need more everyday products from what they have? 100 proof offerings more than just OBSV? More blends?
@@abandonbourbon I think their standard offerings are good enough. Hell, I just finished a Small Batch Select last week and got into one of my SiB BP on Sunday. If they would just give us some age stated stuff, maybe a 10-12 yr product or even a rye (who knows, maybe they’ve already laid some down?) or a toasted barrel, I think it would put them back into conversation.
@@abandonbourbon I'm not sure if Four Roses needs to do anything different until they have ready-to-bottle stocks accumulating beyond demand. If their model ain't broke, why try to fix it.
As far as WhiskeyTube goes, beyond the LE release each year (and they did do the 10 recipe taster sets), what is there to say about Four Roses that hasn't already been said a dozen times before?
@@garyfranchy7726it doesn’t seem to stop people from continually barking about Wild Turkey products or Sazerac, I think that’s more my curiousity. Regardless of how many times it’s done, people still beat that horse. those other brands continue to be included in those regurgitated talks, but Roses doesn’t. Not that they have to be, more curious what stops them from being.
They don’t get the attention because they don’t have anything new on the market. They got attention with the introduction SBS (a favorite of mine) and their LE every year, but they just don’t have anything new to talk about.
Great point. Unfortunately true, but it still doesn't stop folks from praising WT101 and Rare Breed all day long.
Very true. If SBS was barrel strength at the same price point I think it would be right there with Rare Breed for the best everyday value. Proof hounds be houndin'.
@@doompatrol Great call, I don't disagree.
Not a fan of 4R spicey profile
Is it Roses specific? Are there other higher rye profiles you enjoy?
@@abandonbourbon Some. High the not jam (i.e. OGD)
I think it is because all the youtube people have their heads up their asses. Even in this video you mention single barrels, special releases blah blah blah. That is the problem. None of the channels talk about ordinary buy all day long bourbon and for beginners you should. Four roses is incredibly fruit forward and i mean plain old four roses not any selects or SIB none of the overhyped crap. Do i like higher proof yes, but if you truly want to speak to beginners then talk about everyday shelf stuff.
Great insight. Personally on this channel, beginners and everyday shelf stuff isn't going to be what you find (except for maybe some alternatives to more mainstream products.) But! Plenty of other channels that do. That said, I revisted a newer bottling of Small Batch Select and my my is that a good bottle. Under 50 in Costco here.
@@abandonbourbon yeah but thats my point. If you want curiosity about bourbon or a brand then be honest. Personally, i am not excited by nor do i go out of my way to show off a channel doing barrel picks, unicorns, etc. i mean i have tried brands mentioned but i wont go wild if a youtuber gets a double eagle very rare or something. Just remember taste is subjective as are your subscribers so that can be a driving factor. I do not like larceny but others do. Love the fruit notes of four roses others do not.
I’m with you on Larceny… not a fan 😂
Hype died, and local stores still asking stupid money for picks
Especially if people don't know what they'll get in the recipe, 100 bones is a lot to drop on a guess.
Why is no one talking about Bruno ?
Why? Because it's not that good. I've had a number of store picks that have been really underwhelming and now that the price has gone to the $100 range, it's like Booker's for me. Dead...
Fascinating to hear. Have you ever enjoyed any roses products?