TTA Podcast 163: God and the Constitution
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2024
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"The United States is a Christian nation!"
We hear this charge quite often, usually accompanied by references to the Ten Commandments in government courthouses, references to God in the pledge of allegiance and on American currency, and most recently, in the ruling by the Supreme Court that government meetings can open with Christian prayers.
In this podcast, we speak with David Niose, author of "Nonbeliever Nation," Amanda Knief, constitutional expert and author of "The Citizen Lobbyist," and Kelly Damerow, director of federal and state affairs at the Secular Coalition for America.
LINKS:
Religion Clause: religionclause....
Religion Law: religionlaw.blo...
David Niose "Nonbeliever Nation: The Rise of Secular Americans" www.amazon.com/...
Amanda Knief "The Citizen Lobbyist: A How-To Manual for Making your Voice Heard in Government" www.amazon.com/...
My son graduated high school last Sunday in a small Kansas town that borders Missouri and Oklahoma. During the graduation ceremony they prayed twice. The 2nd prayer lasted so long a stranger sitting next to me said she felt like she was in church.
I’m so thankful for people like Seth, Sam Harris, Hitch, Dawkins, and Dillahunty. They helped me see the truth, and I am forever grateful.
This was so well spoken. Thank you for making me more a part of civilization and less an outcast. A few years ago my daughter came home crying because the kids were bullying her for not believing in God. She did not want to say the pledge and the kids AND teacher made fun of her for being "too stupid to see god" I was appalled. I fought the school and lost completely. Bullying is only ok if it's religious. There is a lot I want to say to you Seth, there is a long backstory that I need to share. I will keep listening and if you want to hear my story, respond and I will call, message, email, or any way I cam to get my story here. You are a man among mankind Seth. Thank you.
David brought up a great point. Even if the men that wrote up the constitution held a view that the Nation was a Christian one (which they did not) why are we pushing this need to conform our beliefs with the beliefs of 18th century men that also held that slavery was ok and that woman where below men. Great point.
but mrjones, you've never heard of progress and progression?
@@tracer740 Yes, I have. If you are pro progress then, "why are we pushing this need to conform our beliefs with the beliefs of 18th century men that also held that slavery was ok and that woman where below men"?
Seems an odd question for you to pose to my comment.
@@mrjones422 - Odd indeed! I apologize for a misinterpreting and misunderstanding of your original comment. It sometimes happens to even the best of us. I promise to be more careful ... am I forgiven?
Great episode, Seth. It was really a pleasure to speak with you at INR4 and I'm loving "Deconverted". Thanks for all you do!
It's an excellent read, eh? I started it at the Kamloops airport and had it pretty much finished by the time I hit Toronto. I knew Seth was a great oral communicator, but the writing was better than I had expected.
Baal Buster
Agreed. It came across as honest, sincere and very relatable. I think that's part of the reason TTA show is such a success as well. Sad to hear INR5 will be in Vancouver as I will probably miss it. But I hope it is still just as fantastic an event for the attendees and speakers alike.
Thanks for coming to Kamloops again Seth. It's not the largest show in the world, and that is a part of the enjoyment of it. Still looking for Testamints.
Canadian here: "Under Canada" is much appreciated ;)
Great topic Seth thank you you!
The Mayflower Compact had nothing to do with the first permanent English settlement in the Americas. The first permanent English settlement in the Americas was Jamestown, Virginia, which was there to make money for people. Gold has always come before god here.
Seth one thing I wish you all had touched on under legislation is religious exemption. Although it could be made into an entire episode. Many people do not realize that their own states most likely have laws protecting parents who cause serious physical harm and fatalities to their children for religious reasons. Many know of faith healing and Christian Science philosophies but when these beliefs kill children the parents are often not held accountable because it is their "religious right" to withhold medical treatment. Everyone should check their state laws and write their legislators to have this practice banned. It should be federal law, imo.
Great show Seth
The whole One Nation under God was added in 1950 or around that time wasn't it? And a lot of people think its something we Always had but that's not true
I live in Texas and never say the pledge. I just stand there because I don't particularly believe in the words, both in a religious and patriotic sense. But I ESPECIALLY don't agree with the fact that we're forced to pledge allegiance to Texas. As soon as I'm able, I'm high-tailing it out of here and never coming back. I hate the super religious, conservative environment. And I want to claw Rick Perry's eyes out. Ugh. Some Christian mothers angered me earlier this year:
I was working a school event and parents were required to help out as volunteers. I overheard this conversation among moms on my acting team while I was getting my lunch. One of them bemoaned to the rest that her daughter always manages to attract atheists. There was much sympathetic clucking. The original speaker went on to say that her daughter's latest atheist boyfriend was even here. Immediately, this group of forty to fifty year old women began to jeer, "I bet he looks weird! He probably has odd piercings or tattoos! Let's go find him!" And so, they peeked out of the lounge area, caught sight of the teenager, and proceeded to return to their seats. The general consensus: "Huh. He's actually cute." Yeah. Go figure.
Seth, very nice show. They are getting better and better. Michael Krazney had better watch out. Also, the way you handle the sponsorship is very nice.
That said (buttered you up?) might I suggest a guest? Horus Gilgamesh, the author of the children's-style book of Bible stories titled "Awkward Moments Children's Bible" He's on Facebook.
On the topic of faultless leaders....(and maybe this gets mentioned later, I'm at 22:45 right now) but the thoughts of Abraham Lincoln seem truest here. He was as racist as everyone else in the country. EVERYONE was racist back then (well, practically everyone.) The south wanted to keep their slaves, and the north wanted them shipped back to Africa (which is a huge distinction from the common thought that the north wanted Africans to be free men.) It was ONLY after Lincoln saw some former slaves fighting in the northern army that he changed his mind about putting them all on boats. Most people back then were extremely uncomfortable with free black people, north and south alike. The south never seemed to get over themselves about the topic, and are almost as racist as they've always been. Racism today is still pretty strong though. If it's not Republicans hating on Obama, its conservatives hating on black kids in Detroit and Chicago; the punks and thugs. They make these sweeping generalizations about how all black folks are like that...and I just sit here listing off the names of black people that inspire me. Morgan Freeman, Neil deGras Tyson, Obama, etc etc. White people can be gang bangers and punks just like the gangsters in Detroit. We aren't racist against white people for the acts of those maligned youths. We should see black folks the same way. Some act like twats, most don't. Hate the behavior, not the race.
Need to increase the voices to challenge religious bullies .
Not sure if just me, but the audio quality is sub par this cast. Loved the show as always!
Good show.
The first amendment contradicts the first commandment. Just saying.
All the first four (protestant) commandments violate the First Amendment. Two of them twice over (freedom of religion and freedom of speech).
Yeah, that's one of the arguments I usually give. If the constitution were actually based around or inspired from the Bible in any way, it wouldn't oppose what it has to say. If it were inspired from the Bible, it would have the same bias as the Bible has, but it doesn't.
***** The first four commandments: Worship no other god (no freedom of religion). Don't speak god's name casually [I think; the meaning here is a bit hazy] (no freedom of religion or speech). Observe the Sabbath day rituals (no freedom of religion or assembly). Don't make idols [or possibly any images at all; again, hazy] (no freedom of religion or speech).
The First Amendment establishes freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly. See the contradiction?
I might add that the last commandment (or the last two, if you're a Catholic) condemns thoughtcrime, and while the Constitution doesn't mention thoughtcrime, it's a blatantly immoral concept.
Slavery was fiercely debated during the framing of the constitution. A major reason it was not addressed in the document was because several southern states threatened to succeed before a real union was even in place. It would have been a disaster to form a new government that did not include certain states. The southern economies were dependant on the labor and for them and others the price of freed men was too steep. Its the great blunder of the constitution imo but it is understandable given the position these men were in while framing a new government which saught to unite the colonies under one constitution. I thought i would clarify because one of the woman experts here made it sound as though the founders never even considered the abolition of slavery. Im not dogging Her, just clarifying.
When those pilgrims talked about christian purpose they were not including Catholics.
Nephi895 Nor Native Americans whom worshiped the Great Spirit,and yes they still do.
I understand the need for focus on current legal fights and rhetoric, but I must admit to expecting more discussion of God and the Constitution in terms of historical precedent. Still, good show.
You can visit Colorado to see beautiful snow capped mountains, we are right next door:)
Guess it's time to find and join a group.
"...a wall of separation between church and state."
The United States of America is NOT a Theocracy, The US Constitution prohibits the mingling of church and state; it's illegal.
The US Supreme Court has refereed to the American people as a "religious people" in more than one ruling; "religious" NOT "christian". The Justices' did NOT imply or define the US/A or it's citizens as being a "religious nation" or specifically a "christian nation."
"religious people" does NOT equal "christian nation."
Freedom of Speech protects Freedom of Religion which is NOT exclusive to Christianity, it protects believers and nonbelievers equally. A Christian Nation would be discrimination against all non-Christian American citizens which is over 100 million people of the current 350+ million population.
This debate should not even be taking place... anyone who has actually read our laws and constitutions would know that this was nipped in the bud before it because am issue so that we wouldn't have to argue about this later and yet... here we are.
By the way, Christians. If this were a Christian Nation, the church would NOT be tax exempt which I'm sure NONE of y'all want especially the Big-Business Churches that own theme parks, universities, tv broadcasting, etc... a complete tax free God.
So, get over it Christians and shut the fuck up! Bunch of cry babies.
That requires reading. A lot of christains have not bothered to read their holy book, so they are not about to read the constitution. Thinking hurts their brains. Better to just assert than think.
It's not really surprising that most courts are reluctant to say anything against the pledge or religion. Judges are usually just more elected officials who mainly care about their re-election.
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it - John Adams
I don't think the Christians of America would take that as gospel if they knew John Adams thought that.
i think if it went back to only land owners, business owners and veterans could vote, it would get a lot better.. only people that have something to lose should be able to vote. ... everyone else tends to vote for self-interest and free shit.
I was very disappointed to hear that the lawsuit regarding religious organizations being required to file Form 990 annually like every other 501(c)(3) organization was dismissed.
This would have required religious organizations to be accountable for how they spend their money. This would have opened them up to lawsuits if they lied on the form and outrage if they spent the money in self indulgent ways. This outrage might change public opinion a little in the direction of removing their tax advantages.
Also, preferential treatment for religious organizations in this way appears to me to be blatantly unconstitutional so I think that the dismissal of the case is a strong indication of the corruption of the court.
I'm not aware of a more childish notion of the idea that if you don't like something about America, get out.
+arch angel That notion is exactly why I sometimes DO contemplate leaving this country. People who use that weak, moronish argument are the exact opposite of who our founding fathers were. I also deal with it all the time as an atheist living in Utah. "You hate that the mormon church is in bed with the state legislators? Then move to another state!" Its mind numbing that people are that quick to toss fellow citizens aside for simply having different point of view.
Sorry, but I think it's too late to "get in shape before summer" now... you should be thinking about that around December. :D
So they couldn't get into court because they saw that atheists aren't being discriminated? Who are they to say whether they're being discriminated or not. That's like saying because a teacher didn't see the kid getting bullied they are unable to do anything about the bully.
I don't think you should be forced to say the pledge at all, god or no god. Indoctrination isn't just for religion.
👍👍
"you are about to come out of your chair" - yep
America, a atheist nation. I hope I live long enough for this to become true.
I don't understand why they can't just have a "moment of silence"... That seems perfectly reasonable. It should make both sides happy.
Seth, a little question.. isn't it possible to just plaster the video with commercials instead of the podcast? So just visual, instead of audio. Or at least try that and see how much smaller you can make the commercial part itself (first almost 4 mins?? Damn..)
Or try to cut a deal with google, giving them more freedom with commercials if you don't want to put in the extra effort of plastering the video with visual commercial.
Hell, I won't stop listening to the podcast, I am definitely grateful for what you do. But I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me. It actually almost pisses me off.
Plus, seeing there are a lot of non-americans listening.. you'd think a different company would fit the demograph a lot better
Well meant criticism
It's an audio show... ummm, I don't know what else to say from there. :P
TheAnubisDrake I know. It's first and foremost a podcast, meaning that the sound is the important part :-P
But if Seth can get extra income in a different way, he might not have to spend that much time pushing forward a silly product (snacks on a subscription??)
I hear plenty of people being annoyed with the ad and it might very well mean he'll lose listeners. Nothing wrong with giving some possible solutions to keep that from happening, right?
*****
I never said I was anti-advertising, did I?
Not finding that CNN video with Amanda and the Pastor. If anyone has a link please post it here.
I think it's /watch?v=wlZSwYuZ57g
mattchuck91
Looks like it! Thankies!
Huh.. I thought I linked the wrong one, but it's the same one... meh.
How do I message seth with a question?
Can't find the video of Amanda and that pastor
I lost it at "literally whitewash" lol
how about the first satanic prayers
What.. the... fossils... say? I see what you did there! :D
Search: "amanda knief pastor robert jeffress cnn"
The only result that comes up is a playlist containing videos you've already seen
one question: could a declared atheist or agnostic become president of USA?
many countries,including mine(Chile)does not care about it
Yes, well I hope.
kar3154
Atheists are the most distrusted minority in the U.S, due to the fervently dogmatic culture and disregard for intelligence in American society. Many Americans claim they would never vote for atheists, who are, in fact, prohibited from running for office in seven states. Even the previous president of the nation stated that he didn't think atheists should be considered citizens or given rights at all, let alone allowed to have a say in public affairs.
Prince Istalri My arguement to any religous person who says i am imoral because i am atheist. I ask them this question: Are you a rapist without god?
If the answer is yes. RUN.
kar3154
People who claim god is their source of morality are not truly moral. They are following orders from a celestial Kim Jong Il, and if those orders are moral, great. If not, the almighty dear leader cannot be questioned, it must be done anyway. What if god commanded you to rape a baby and sacrifice it to him? Many theists will be forced to admit that _yes_, they would do it, though reluctantly. Pathetic.
Prince Istalri They would say "that was not god that was the devil" like there is a difference.
A position has to be popular before it can be considered worthy of equality in court??
Equality for all ?? What the hell, is that called equality?
From Scotland. I used to think America was a modern country. Now I see it as a third world nation, with a shiny cover.
So I'm guessing that that lady didn't know that George Washington or Benjamin Franklin put in their wills that all their slaves should be freed upon their deaths? Or that the first slave owner in America was actually a black man, owning another black man? Or that most of the founding fathers put in their journals that slavery made them uneasy, and they didn't believe it should be allowed?
Do your homework, lady.
If you're going to spout off about someone needing to do their homework, be sure that you've done yours correctly. The man in question (Anthony Johnson) is not recorded as being the first slave owner in America. He was _among the first_ to have his right to own slaves recognized _in Virginia._ That does not indicate him as the first slave owner in America.
Did you have something to gain by twisting the narrative to claim that he was the first slave owner in America? Education is great and all, but don't spread horseshit like that.
Barm, belief in a creator does not constitute a religion. Belief in a creator is no different than belief in science. It's simply human curiosity. I do not worship science, and if I happen to believe that someone created the universe that doesn't mean that I worship the creator. Science is about considering all possibilities, if one closes his mind to the possibility of a creator, then he or she lacks a scientific intellect. Human curiosity does not constitute a religion.
Actually, belief in a creator is very different than belief in science. Science uses evidence, which can be tested and retested. Belief in a creator relies almost exclusively on faith, or put a different way, it relies on the belief that a creator exists based on little to no evidence. The evidence we currently have does not point towards a creator. Sciences main goal is to understand the world via natural mechanisms, and the supernatural has no place in it.
He really needs to stop saying religious right as if religion and political affiliation are the same thing. Also it implies the Democrats are good, and they clearly are not, not to say the Republicans are good because they clearly are not as well.
The thing is, there really IS such a thing as "the religious right". It by no means represents all, or even the majority, of the religious, or even Christians in particular. But it is a genuine movement (which has been around for quite some time now) which is religiously-based, and is extremely right-wing in their political views and goals, and in fact these views are driven in large part by their religious beliefs. To call it anything else would simply be obfuscation.
ishtarian I do have to admit that I would be hard pressed to find a conservative atheist. Most atheists are liberal or libertarian, so I guess it is not completely unjustified to associate religion with conservatism, which is mostly Republican. I just find it annoying to make such associations because we know once you remove religion a person's political views tend to go everyplace...except conservative, so we know there is not a direct causation. That and hearing all these politicians argue that it is the other side's fault is giving me a headache.
Jesse Sisolack Oh, I'd say there are some conservative atheists out there. The editor of Skeptic magazine, for instance, is a conservative in various ways (though not across the board -- then again, there used to be such a thing as liberal Republicans, too; though now I'm hearing accusations from the GOP of Eisenhower having been a Red....). But yes, they're out there. After all, atheism itself is simply a position on one single issue....
As for it being a correlation rather than... yes, I think that's true; but the two do seem to go together a great deal, so the association is understandable. And as for the last point... um, yeah. I think it might behoove both of us to invest in stock in one of the aspirin companies......
Best wishes....
Jesse Sisolack Oh, one other example comes to mind immediately: The weird writer, H. P. Lovecraft, who was as staunch an atheist as you're likely to find, and a die-hard conservative of the old school for most of his life; some would argue his entire life, as even when he became a "New Dealer" it was largely for conservative reasons ("I care about the culture", that is, preserving the culture we had established, rather than most of the reasons liberals might advance...)
Religious right is the common ground of the religious and the political right. If he just said one or the other, then it would actually a more broad generalization, and therefore only make the very thing you are objecting to even worse.
There wasn't much outright atheism in the 1700s (the time of the Constitution). For non-believers (of the Abrahamic-based religions) deism was the road to follow. I need to make several points: 1) It is not a stretch to say that many of the old-time deists, and perhaps even some theists, would have been atheists if they had access to the scientific knowledge we have today. 2) Although this is not a Christian country in the strict sense of the word, the Christians have treated it in this manner for so long a time that they sort of grandfathered themselves in as the "ruling class." Now when non-Christians try to level the playing field and bring things into accord with a secular society, the Christians cry foul and claim that they are being persecuted. 3) For several hundred years the Native Americans suffered an onslaught of Christian missionaries whose life work it was to convert the heathen "natives." In fact, the US government played a hand in this, dividing up the reservations circa 1869 among various sects of Christianity (this was a clear case of the government endorsing religion but there was no one around to fight it). The Indians were already a religious people (totally understandable based on their manner of living with nature and being a hunter society), and being largely a defeated people, they fell easy prey to the missionaries. The result is that most Native Americans (so far as I can tell) are Christian today. The churches came to the reservations and never left. Now for how to get along in this country in today's world: Public policy must not be based on religious doctrine. Keep your religion private. And that is a safeguard for religion, too. Because one day your religion not be the main player and then what you gonna do when Islamamania runs wild on you?
I agree with most of that, but one little detail sticks in my craw. The native people of the Americas were both hunter/gatherer groups/nations and agricultural societies as well. How quickly we forget the great civilizations of Central America and even some like the Puebla in North America.
TheAnubisDrake
Yes, you are right. I was thinking mainly of the Plains Indians. But all Native peoples of North America were religious. But they weren't religious in the same way as the Abrahamic-based religions. There was no, "Believe as I do or go to hell" type of religion or "My way is the only true way." In fact, they were open to adding rituals and beliefs from other tribes and cultures.
brigham2250 Yup, animism and polytheism generally have that advantage.
I'm not dissing America saying this but if the Christians are doing such a great job at charity why is America according to Unicef in position 34 out of 35 developing nations for stopping child poverty?? Sandwiched between Latvia and Romania. This is one of the wealthiest countries in the world and you have nearly as much child poverty as impoverished Romania?
Is it possible people buy in to Christian Nationhood myths too easily?
I'm sure I could be branded as a secular hater for saying this but if you want to improve things you should first look at reality.
Deist is this to difficult to get
47:38 I'll be ready to pray to Satan 😊😈
PTTHHPT XD Funny that one person quotes Mayflower compact with all them crazy hateful Puritans. I shudder to think there's an abundance of awful people who would love America's religious climate to be like those hypocrites.
Kaleigh Hvizdos BTW, the men whom founded our country ACTUALLY STOLE.✊
I love tta but I don't like these arguments. I'm not christian but their argument is bad.
i'm not kidding. i'm a republican, mormon, atheist, from SLC Utah. My mother and father are the offspring of polygamist families. if you think its easy to break out of the mind trap of that cult, i would say you are wrong. And yes, there are republican atheists.
WE THE PEOPLE TRUTH JUSTICE MORALITY # 1 NATION UNDER GOD IN THE GOOD OL' UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ( THE GREAT HA SATAN ) WAY
Utter bullshit. (Meaning the article)