Tom points out that there are BGG users that rank games as low weight because they play heavy games. Then he proceeds to essentially do that with half of his list here. 😂
But Tom is right... I increasingly find myself agreeing with Tom and disagreeing with the rest of the DT crew (especially Zee). Take the Targi example... Tom is right... It doesn't need to be lighter. There's this unhealthy trend of trying to make hobby gaming into some sort of Rocket science you need to be slowly trained in. No! ... If you have the motivation, basically any board game is possible to learn as your first.
Great lists -- glad you all have re-visited this, as I am one of those who almost always play two-player. Surprised that Fox in the Forest and Star Realms/Hero Realms did not make anyone's list, as they are both excellent introductory two-player games. Learned a couple of new games to track down, which is always a plus. Thanks, you all.
I consume a ,ot of gaming content on UA-cam but there is nearly nothing meeting my enjoyment of those top 10 videos by far. I simply like the format and the chemistry is just on spot. Great. Thanks Dudes. The only thing I enjoy more is the Secret Cabal Podcast.
A casual game is a game which can be learned by any two people (who are capable of reading and following a rulebook) regardless of their background or history with board games, and they can learn the game separately and (generally) come to the same conclusion in how the game works. An "advanced" game requires at least one player to understand games already and typically has them teach it.
To illustrate my point further, Tom's #7 (7 Wonders Duel) he says "when someone doesn't understand the card, I can tell them because its right there." If a game requires someone to understand/translate symbols for the other, its no longer casual. TL;DR Tom is wrong
Thanks for doing more lists for 2-player games! I feel like it's often hard to find games specifically designed for two players, and often they haven't been (video) reviewed or talked a lot about, and it's just hard to find out whether they are any good at all.
Great recommendations across the board. Really like that each one of you have your own diverse thought process about it as well. Props to Roy for doing an amazing job behind the scenes. Really ups the bar of these videos.
I like so many of the games on all of your lists. Love that Zee included Archaeology. I think that one gets looked over often. The only two games that you guys didn't include are Hanamikoji and Air, Land and Sea. I'm looking forward to your next more gamers version.😁
For many two-player abstract strategy games there’s a casual side and there’s a very complex side. Hive is one of those. So is Onitama in my opinion. For that reason I would never put most on this kind of a list, even if they’re easy to learn and play. Mastery brings out a lot of depth.
I love Hive but wouldn't consider it casual. I can teach it and is easy to learn but i got to deep on theory so i would never lose to someone new. Is like chess, easy to learn, imposible to master
Man...what a great list!! As someone married to a "casual at best" gamer....always on the hunt for more quality games that don't take hours to teach and play. Jaipur is a favorite of ours, I love Memoir 44, agree with Tom it's a great 2 player casual wargame. My wife LOVES 7 wonders duel, so it's definitely a casual game. :)
Great pick with Codenames duet. My wife and I call this our dinner game. We are going through the full map and have been at it for over two years now... It is not easy to get some of those though cities, but man it makes it even better. Best code names game hands down and again, excellent choice!!
When you started talking about “casual“ games I had the exact same thought as Mike. I would’ve used BGG‘s complexity rating and not going above a two. I was so happy when you said that Mike because I had the exact same thought before you said it. Good source and a good cut off
I do not agree that BGG weight ranking is total garbage. I think it's a neat asset that gives a pertinent idea of the game complexity. Sure, it is not a scientific classification and a argument over a game with a rate of 2,45 is objectively more complex than another rated 2,35 would be totally pointless. However, I know that a game rated 2,50 will not give the same experience as one rated 1,25 and another one rated 4,15. Roughly, I would said that a gap of 1 point between 2 games indicate that these 2 games aren't on the same level of complexity. Below that, I expect the games to be more or less the same complexity. All this to say that it's a useful tool. At least, as useful as the length rate.
Very well put! I think for a reviewer who plays all of the games, bgg weighting might be of little use and frustratingly inaccurate. But like you said, it is about as accurate as a review number gets. I. E. "Most people rate *this* game more complex than *these* games." I also find it fascinating how weight rankings can somewhat indicate how heavy a gamer typically is. I would be hard pressed to find a game in my collection outside of the 2.3-4.5 range. My girlfriend has even commented when we play light games that she thought it was too light. And she probably wouldn't play anything over roughly a 3.8. So even she has an optimal, typical range, it would appear to me. Of course, this varies with the group setting and how you're feeling, but game weight is important!
Agreed. My family has found that the weightings on BGG match up well with the rough complexity of the game. It is easy to differentiate a Spirt Island from a Wingspan at a glance. We have found it quite useful when considering purchasing a game or pulling a game off the shelf to try out at our local hobby store (that has hundreds of games available to play).
I disagree with this. The BGG heavy rating has not been helpful for me when deciding what games to get for my family. For example, my family plays Caverna (weight 3.79) without really any rules headaches, however, they struggle with Small World (weight 2.59) and Cosmic Encounter (weight 2.57). Dead of Winter (3.01) has been nearly impossible to get through to them, yet they adore Root and Kemet (3.69 and 3.00)! I believe that the heavy rating isn't especially helpful because it actually attempts to describe to concepts; rules difficulty and rules depth. Caverna is relatively simple in terms of its core mechanisms, but its heft comes from the sheer volume of choice/depth! While Small World and Cosmic Encounter both are thoughtful games in their own right, things like card timing for powers/cards in hand for Cosmic Encounter can make the game extremely confusing with its many phases! I don't feel like the heavy rating exhibits this well, which makes the rating appear nigh arbitrary to me.
@@rustyshackleford634 And what kind of heaviness rating would you give to these games? Beware, you can only give whole numbers. And for sure, the rating doesn't address if the game is difficult due to its many rules or its depth. Still, it gives a good impression of what you can expect.
@@friedrichschumann740 Well that’s partially the issue. I think the heavy rating should be split up into those two categories. The heavy rating is more helpful on the extremes, with pointing out extremely hard to enter games (usually coming in at around 4.5) and extremely light games (below a 2). However, anywhere in the middle I feel like it becomes an ambiguous mess. You ask me to rate those games, but with the heavy rating I have an extremely hard time doing so. For example, Small World is an example where the rules (specifically the decline mechanism) makes the game more rules complex. It’s also a game where some people would end up with an analysis paralysis problem similar to the reason one might in Five Tribes. For some people, Small World could be a 4-5 for these reasons, for me I would probably put it at a 3. Another example of the weirdness that is the BGG weight system is Hive and Chess (2.33 and 3.70). Hive has opening theory just like chess does, and to learn the pieces and odd rules of hive is arguably more difficult than chess, bar maybe en passant.
10. Kickstarter game 9. Kickstarter game 8. Kickstarter game 7. Kickstarter game 6. Kickstarter game 5. Kickstarter game 4. Kickstarter game 3. Kickstarter game 2. Magic The Gathering 1. Heroscape
Mike: 10. Let's Make a Bus Route: The Dice Game 9. Klask 8. Codenames: Duet 7. Jaipur 6. Schotten Totten 5. Onitama 4. Odin's Ravens 3. Santorini 2. Patchwork 1. Lost Cities (2 player) Zee: 10. Tides of Time 9. Village Green 8. Jaipur 7. Holmes: Sherlock & Mycroft 6. Century: Spice Road 5. Mandala 4. Tatsu 3. Kariba 2. Lost Cities (2 player) 1. Archaeology: The New Expedition Tom: 10. Shōbu 9. MicroMacro: Crime City 8. Memoir '44 7. 7 Wonders Duel 6. Funkoverse Strategy Game 5. Chronicles of Crime 4. Battle Line [is the same game as Schotten Totten] 3. Targi 2. Paperback 1. Onitama People's Choice: 10. The Fox in the Forest 9. Onitama 8. Santorini 7. Wingspan 6. Star Realms 5. Lost Cities (2 player) 4. Targi 3. Patchwork 2. Jaipur 1. 7 Wonders Duel
For me, a casual game would be something that: •Is easy to learn/teach or gameplay is intuitive •plays in a short amount of time (15-45 minutes) •something that doesn't take a ton of brain power or strategizing. And could, but doesn't necessarily have to be: •Relaxing •Silly (doesn't take itself too seriously in mechanics or theme) When I think of casual, I think, okay I've got a little extra time, let's play a quick game, nothing too complicated. I also think of games I could play with my family/relatives without them looking at me like 🥴
Quacks of Quedlinburg seems like a good candidate for this list. It doesn't feel any more combotastic than Century. Maybe the number of small things happening between each round of grabbing stuff from a bag push it higher than casual.
I feel like this is dice tower back at their best. Everyone looked like they were having fun and there were plenty of laughs. I think everyone has been putting in so much effort with the spectacular and moving the studio that everyone has appeared a bit tired lately and less enthused about making the videos.
Great picks! Some that I have enjoyed and didn't make your lists would be Fox in the Forest and Hanamikoji. I really enjoy playing Kingdomino, Istanbul the Dice Game, and Port Royal with my husband as well but I think those might be just as good or better with more players. An odd one I actually like best with two but everyone things I'm crazy is Citadels haha. I only want to play it as a 2-player game.
When I heard about this list, that was the first game I thought of - because of who I play it with. Then I immediately had a similar debate in my head if it was appropriate or not. Semantics maybe, but it was a fun struggle.
Duel (and the expansions) are my all-time favourite game...and while I feel confident that I could teach it to most, this is definitely not a game I could easily play with most of my family members, whereas Fox in the Forest, Archaeology, etc. are much, much easier to get them to play and enjoy.
I think Tom's problem with the complexity scale can be solved by one simple thing- to realize that the complexity curve is probably a bell curve, not a linear one. Because a lot of people are probably going to rank something 2-3. Star Fleet Battles is one of the most complex games around but it's only 4.25, Harpoon is only about a 4.3
Mike, no shame using BGG weight. Sure, sometimes the weight is off…but I have found the metric to be very helpful. The main knock for the metric would be newer games that have low vote count.
All the grief Tom gave Mike about using the BGG complexity scale became a moot point when 7 Wonders Duel came up on his list. Maybe he should have utilized the scale himself. 😆
We almost solely play Santorini without the God powers. It's mostly just been a fun pure abstract game where we can pit our wits against each other with the wonderfully simple rulseset. We've only used God powers a few times for a sort of wildcard game to spice things up, but without was always the standard.
I gotta add some games to the pile ... Forbidden Desert, Hanimakoji, Karuba, Potion Explosion, Jamaica, and . When new players arrive for game night, these are the ones, along with Jaipur, that get put on the table.
Codenames Duet is brilliant. A few years ago I bought a bunch of games for me and my then girlfriend to play; I got a range of totally different types of games, Codenames Duet was one of them. It's brilliant. It was about the only thing that tamed her animosity ;) I also played it with my Dad after he had a stroke and it was a good exercise for both of us, and produced funny moments too. With the exgf... I said "nose, 2." "what kind of stupid clue is that? How am I su...? There's noth.... I .... I don't.... ok, CHEESE" "Yes" She got the second one too, also a bit abstract, but I don't remember what it was. Super fun.
It's funny that I would have almost entirely chosen abstract strategy games for this, cause so many of them have very simple rules, like Kamisado, Kick It, Blocks, Moeraki Kemu or really most anything from Gerhards
Mandala is the best casual two player to me. The player’s control over the card’s point worth at the end is awesome. Very classic card game feel to it, but at the same time it has a modern feel to it as well. This game also makes a great “not too serious” coffee conversation game for couples too. Highly recommend it. Would make an ideal app. It’s up there with Jaipur.
In general I agree (even with Tom's Memoir '44) with the lists. I especially like Lost Cities, Onitama, and BattleLine. But here's some that are awesome two player games that weren't even mentioned: Hive Naga Raja Flick 'em Up Ice Cool Project L and my #1......The Duke!!!!
I love Hive, but after I got very good at the game my girlfriend stopped playing with me after her third total lockout. It has a skill gap in thr same way chess does. I do hope it's on the competitive 2 player list thougj.
@@nicka.9057 : Hive does have a "skill gap", just like chess or the Duke. Winning isn't everything because having fun is more important with games. So, you have a few options....play stupid to allow your partner a chance to win, just allow it to be a friendly game, or choose a game that is based upon randomness rather than tactics. Naga Raja is a great two player game and might be something you and your wife might enjoy.
Onitama is not something I would put on a casual list, because it is thinky....Zee was 100% right, it makes you feel anxious, especially if you aren't an abstract game player. It evokes all the same stress of chess. I think something like Santorini which hides the abstractness underneath a fun theme and associated special power makes it less brain vs brain.
@@IdlestHands thanks for the interesting response.. I agree Santorini is very abstract. I think though that as theme and/or random chance increase, the fear-of-chess-ness goes down. If the theme is there strongly enough I guess it stops being "abstract", but it could be totally themeless and have a little random chance mixed in and end up being appealing to people who run the other way at Onitama. One example of a place where theme helps might be something like Calico (which I haven't played) or Seikatsu (which I have played) where the charming theme sort of relaxes the atmosphere enough that you don't feel compelled to be a master strategist, and can just sort of have fun and be surprised in the end what your score is...maybe you win, maybe you don't. I guess I feel like Santorini isn't quite as anxiety inducing because there are only two thing you can do on a turn as opposed to Onitama where you can chess-ify it quite a lot with complex multi-turn strategy....or maybe I'm just so bad at abstract strategy that I play Santorini like a dummy and just go turn by turn lol 😉😜 I prefer my games loaded with theme and I prefer my strategy to rely at least partly on social manipulation (bluffing, diversion, etc). I liked stratego as a kid and hera and zeus for instance. Anyway, happy gaming! 😊
When you play these types of games, either with kids or "newbies", do you ever loose on purpose for whatever reason (make them happy, increase the likelyhood they will play again, etc.)
Extra caveats for casual definitively have to include; set up time, length of game and whether you can teach it to practically anyone. Memoir does not fit in my definition. I do understand where Tom is mostly coming from though.
Thanks for those added criteria. I think it's why Unmatched feels very casual. Lightning quick set up/take down, games are very short, rule set is simple, board is clean...it's just learning how to play your character but I guess that's like the Street Fighter video games. Memoir, Duel, Targi, they are the games that feel "in between" the connotations of "Top 10 Casual" and "Top 10 Strategic"
The definition of CASUAL is the real question here. I found Wingspan easy to learn, teach and play. Although it isn’t a game I would recommend be bought early on in the hobby. Although having said that it could be. That would be another list = Essential Must Own Games or First Games to Own. We play a lot of 2 player due to the current climate and we found Targi easier than 7 Wonders Duel to learn and play casually.
BGG crowd sourced wts aside… the original Let’s Make a Bus Route was the first game I played at a con as a new gamer several years ago and that was the game that really made it click for me why I love board games. It is a really simple game with the perfect amount of crunch & complexity. It was addictive and I had to play it again immediately then every day of the con until I was teaching it - my 1st time teaching a game too.
My favorite 2 player game is 13 Days, but I’m not sure you’d consider it casual. For a more casual game, not for only two players, I like Qwirkle. Other ones we have include Hardback, Star Realms, Holmes-Sherlock & Mycroft, Lost Cities and several micro games. Tom, once we played Hardback, we never played Paperback again.
I've heard some people say there's too much luck involved but I enjoy Cribbage quite a lot, could play for hours just enjoying someone's company! It's been around so long for a reason, right?
Scoring in Lost Cities becomes easier when you remember that it doesn't matter by how many points you win. Often we'll just LOOK at the end state of the board and it will be obvious who won the round. If it's at all uncertain, then we'll count. But it does make things faster, and I reckon, more exciting when you can just say, "oof, you sure took that one, let's go again"
Well, that's not quite true! The game is over three rounds, and whoever has the most points over that many rounds wins. So it's not a "best of three" type game, because a huge score in one round can beat smaller scores in other rounds.
Say whaaat! Then I've been playing it wrong. I thought it was Streetfighter 2 style and a win is a win. I wonder if I'll play as recklessly going forward knowing that it matters in the long run. Let's see......
What about Android: Netrunner? ---- That should be a No Brainer! :-) That's actually the game that my wife and I "cut our teeth on" when we got into gaming... LOL Would NOT go that route now though.... Great Vid!
Great to see Memoir 44 on this list. I love the uncertainty in it and the possibilities it creates. Yes it is WWII. Nothing what we want experience again RL. But some pple don't like Battlelore because it's a fantasy setting. So just play it for the fun of the game with a friend. Two thumbs up for 7 Wonders Duel
I dont understand people's obsession with Onitama. Yes, it's pretty but it's such a brain burner it just gives me huge analysis paralysis and like Zee said it makes me feel stupid (which is never fun)
I played it and hated it and I agree that it may make you feel like you are stupid if you play with someone who is good at it and enjoys this kind of games.
You've done lists on games that are overrated or underrated -- I think it would be interesting to have a list of games you feel are less or more complex than the BGG complexity rating. It would also give a good opportunity to demonstrate how BGG complexity scores can be misleading, something I agree with.
I don't understand Tom's gripe with the weight ratings. The scale is 1 to 5, so the difference between 1 and 1.75 say is quite significant. If it was out of 10 thats the difference between a 1/10 and a 3.5/10. Compared to Campaign for North Africa at say 10/10, Santorini being a 3.5 and Candyland being a 1 makes perfect sense. In fact it's almost making Santorini out to be heavier than it is.
I just learned 7 wonders duel and it is not casual. Took me 3 full games to really learn it. And the game is so cutthroat the person learning will not enjoy it because they will get steam rolled by the end of the second age.
I think that Tom is probably biased since he likely played dozens or hundreds of games of Seven Wonders before playing Duel. He didn't start from zero with learning that game and didn't recognizing the complexity of it for casual/new gamers that haven't played the original. My family found it to be more of a mid-weight than a light/casual game. Even if I personally consider it light. Having played dozens/hundreds of games of Seven Wonders. :)
Targi is deep but pretty simple, I taught it to my wife and with the words side it wasn't that bad. She also prefers lighter games like Tom's (she could destroy me if she wasn't so tired from taking care of more important things)
Zee seems to think that it’s hard to teach Memoir 44 because he assumes everyone else’s eyes glaze over like his when the phrase “war game” is said, but that holds true for any genre. If you find the theme or variety of game boring, no amount of elegant design will make the teaching process painless.
Casual and gateway are not the same list. Just because a game is casual it doesnt mean it needs to be an introduction to gaming. I have been playing board games for years, but I still love casual games because I dont always have the time or energy for Gloomhaven.
I like Zee's choice at #1, Archaeology, but I don't think he sold it very well. The great feature of the game, which Zee never mentions, is that it's a "press your luck" game wherein the bigger sets result in exponentially more points but you run the risk of a sandstorm or a robber totally ruining the plan. A couple of other notes: I don't agree that 7 Wonders Duel is in any way "casual". And where is Kingdomino?
when Mike said "First game I bought myself when I was getting into the hobby" my first thought was "Oh, gotta be the Royal game of Ur, maybe Senet"
Great list, and I think Mike's approach makes sense. Average BGG ratings: Mike 1.58, Zee 1.66, and Tom 1.98.
Mmmmmm that’s good data
Let's go Mike! Complexity is an important factor to determine a Casual game so it's much appreciated
The dice tower are my favourite reviewers by a huge margin. Especially Tom, Zee and Mike. The holy trio.
Tom points out that there are BGG users that rank games as low weight because they play heavy games. Then he proceeds to essentially do that with half of his list here. 😂
But Tom is right...
I increasingly find myself agreeing with Tom and disagreeing with the rest of the DT crew (especially Zee).
Take the Targi example... Tom is right... It doesn't need to be lighter.
There's this unhealthy trend of trying to make hobby gaming into some sort of Rocket science you need to be slowly trained in. No! ... If you have the motivation, basically any board game is possible to learn as your first.
Great lists -- glad you all have re-visited this, as I am one of those who almost always play two-player. Surprised that Fox in the Forest and Star Realms/Hero Realms did not make anyone's list, as they are both excellent introductory two-player games. Learned a couple of new games to track down, which is always a plus. Thanks, you all.
I consume a ,ot of gaming content on UA-cam but there is nearly nothing meeting my enjoyment of those top 10 videos by far. I simply like the format and the chemistry is just on spot. Great. Thanks Dudes.
The only thing I enjoy more is the Secret Cabal Podcast.
A casual game is a game which can be learned by any two people (who are capable of reading and following a rulebook) regardless of their background or history with board games, and they can learn the game separately and (generally) come to the same conclusion in how the game works.
An "advanced" game requires at least one player to understand games already and typically has them teach it.
To illustrate my point further, Tom's #7 (7 Wonders Duel) he says "when someone doesn't understand the card, I can tell them because its right there." If a game requires someone to understand/translate symbols for the other, its no longer casual.
TL;DR Tom is wrong
Thanks for doing more lists for 2-player games! I feel like it's often hard to find games specifically designed for two players, and often they haven't been (video) reviewed or talked a lot about, and it's just hard to find out whether they are any good at all.
Great recommendations across the board. Really like that each one of you have your own diverse thought process about it as well. Props to Roy for doing an amazing job behind the scenes. Really ups the bar of these videos.
I like so many of the games on all of your lists. Love that Zee included Archaeology. I think that one gets looked over often.
The only two games that you guys didn't include are Hanamikoji and Air, Land and Sea.
I'm looking forward to your next more gamers version.😁
I am missing Hive in this list. My favorite casual 2 player game. Easy to carry around, easy to teach and playable on almost any table/surface.
I feel like Hive is casual as long as you haven’t gotten into the theory scene of the game..
The rule book is too much of a mess to be casual
For many two-player abstract strategy games there’s a casual side and there’s a very complex side. Hive is one of those. So is Onitama in my opinion. For that reason I would never put most on this kind of a list, even if they’re easy to learn and play. Mastery brings out a lot of depth.
I love Hive but wouldn't consider it casual. I can teach it and is easy to learn but i got to deep on theory so i would never lose to someone new. Is like chess, easy to learn, imposible to master
Man...what a great list!! As someone married to a "casual at best" gamer....always on the hunt for more quality games that don't take hours to teach and play. Jaipur is a favorite of ours, I love Memoir 44, agree with Tom it's a great 2 player casual wargame. My wife LOVES 7 wonders duel, so it's definitely a casual game. :)
Fun fact! Kariba and KLASK actually have a LOWER weight than Candy Land on BGG. Candy Land has a 1.11.
Great pick with Codenames duet. My wife and I call this our dinner game. We are going through the full map and have been at it for over two years now... It is not easy to get some of those though cities, but man it makes it even better. Best code names game hands down and again, excellent choice!!
Mike is correct about the game weight rating. We find it quite useful.
When you started talking about “casual“ games I had the exact same thought as Mike. I would’ve used BGG‘s complexity rating and not going above a two. I was so happy when you said that Mike because I had the exact same thought before you said it. Good source and a good cut off
When Mike turned to the camera and proclaimed "That's Right!", I knew we were getting the DiLisio experience.
I do not agree that BGG weight ranking is total garbage. I think it's a neat asset that gives a pertinent idea of the game complexity.
Sure, it is not a scientific classification and a argument over a game with a rate of 2,45 is objectively more complex than another rated 2,35 would be totally pointless.
However, I know that a game rated 2,50 will not give the same experience as one rated 1,25 and another one rated 4,15.
Roughly, I would said that a gap of 1 point between 2 games indicate that these 2 games aren't on the same level of complexity. Below that, I expect the games to be more or less the same complexity.
All this to say that it's a useful tool. At least, as useful as the length rate.
Very well put!
I think for a reviewer who plays all of the games, bgg weighting might be of little use and frustratingly inaccurate. But like you said, it is about as accurate as a review number gets. I. E. "Most people rate *this* game more complex than *these* games." I also find it fascinating how weight rankings can somewhat indicate how heavy a gamer typically is. I would be hard pressed to find a game in my collection outside of the 2.3-4.5 range. My girlfriend has even commented when we play light games that she thought it was too light. And she probably wouldn't play anything over roughly a 3.8. So even she has an optimal, typical range, it would appear to me. Of course, this varies with the group setting and how you're feeling, but game weight is important!
Agreed. My family has found that the weightings on BGG match up well with the rough complexity of the game. It is easy to differentiate a Spirt Island from a Wingspan at a glance. We have found it quite useful when considering purchasing a game or pulling a game off the shelf to try out at our local hobby store (that has hundreds of games available to play).
I disagree with this. The BGG heavy rating has not been helpful for me when deciding what games to get for my family.
For example, my family plays Caverna (weight 3.79) without really any rules headaches, however, they struggle with Small World (weight 2.59) and Cosmic Encounter (weight 2.57). Dead of Winter (3.01) has been nearly impossible to get through to them, yet they adore Root and Kemet (3.69 and 3.00)!
I believe that the heavy rating isn't especially helpful because it actually attempts to describe to concepts; rules difficulty and rules depth. Caverna is relatively simple in terms of its core mechanisms, but its heft comes from the sheer volume of choice/depth! While Small World and Cosmic Encounter both are thoughtful games in their own right, things like card timing for powers/cards in hand for Cosmic Encounter can make the game extremely confusing with its many phases! I don't feel like the heavy rating exhibits this well, which makes the rating appear nigh arbitrary to me.
@@rustyshackleford634 And what kind of heaviness rating would you give to these games? Beware, you can only give whole numbers.
And for sure, the rating doesn't address if the game is difficult due to its many rules or its depth. Still, it gives a good impression of what you can expect.
@@friedrichschumann740 Well that’s partially the issue. I think the heavy rating should be split up into those two categories. The heavy rating is more helpful on the extremes, with pointing out extremely hard to enter games (usually coming in at around 4.5) and extremely light games (below a 2).
However, anywhere in the middle I feel like it becomes an ambiguous mess. You ask me to rate those games, but with the heavy rating I have an extremely hard time doing so.
For example, Small World is an example where the rules (specifically the decline mechanism) makes the game more rules complex. It’s also a game where some people would end up with an analysis paralysis problem similar to the reason one might in Five Tribes. For some people, Small World could be a 4-5 for these reasons, for me I would probably put it at a 3.
Another example of the weirdness that is the BGG weight system is Hive and Chess (2.33 and 3.70). Hive has opening theory just like chess does, and to learn the pieces and odd rules of hive is arguably more difficult than chess, bar maybe en passant.
Top 10 Wallet Wreckers (expensive games) would be a good list
10. Kickstarter game
9. Kickstarter game
8. Kickstarter game
7. Kickstarter game
6. Kickstarter game
5. Kickstarter game
4. Kickstarter game
3. Kickstarter game
2. Magic The Gathering
1. Heroscape
I agree. I also liked the idea of top ten games you’d buy your enemy, even though it was said in jest.
Arent they all? :p
Kingdom death monster
Xwing
Armada
Star wars legions
War hammer 40k
War hammer AoS
In no particular order
Ahhh, the list I've been waiting for! Thanks guys.
Mike:
10. Let's Make a Bus Route: The Dice Game
9. Klask
8. Codenames: Duet
7. Jaipur
6. Schotten Totten
5. Onitama
4. Odin's Ravens
3. Santorini
2. Patchwork
1. Lost Cities (2 player)
Zee:
10. Tides of Time
9. Village Green
8. Jaipur
7. Holmes: Sherlock & Mycroft
6. Century: Spice Road
5. Mandala
4. Tatsu
3. Kariba
2. Lost Cities (2 player)
1. Archaeology: The New Expedition
Tom:
10. Shōbu
9. MicroMacro: Crime City
8. Memoir '44
7. 7 Wonders Duel
6. Funkoverse Strategy Game
5. Chronicles of Crime
4. Battle Line [is the same game as Schotten Totten]
3. Targi
2. Paperback
1. Onitama
People's Choice:
10. The Fox in the Forest
9. Onitama
8. Santorini
7. Wingspan
6. Star Realms
5. Lost Cities (2 player)
4. Targi
3. Patchwork
2. Jaipur
1. 7 Wonders Duel
This hurts their viewership. If you care about this channel you should not summarize the content of it
For me, a casual game would be something that:
•Is easy to learn/teach or gameplay is intuitive
•plays in a short amount of time (15-45 minutes)
•something that doesn't take a ton of brain power or strategizing.
And could, but doesn't necessarily have to be:
•Relaxing
•Silly (doesn't take itself too seriously in mechanics or theme)
When I think of casual, I think, okay I've got a little extra time, let's play a quick game, nothing too complicated. I also think of games I could play with my family/relatives without them looking at me like 🥴
Quacks of Quedlinburg seems like a good candidate for this list. It doesn't feel any more combotastic than Century. Maybe the number of small things happening between each round of grabbing stuff from a bag push it higher than casual.
Is quacks good with two players? I’ve wanted it for a long time but rarely play games with more than two.
I feel like this is dice tower back at their best. Everyone looked like they were having fun and there were plenty of laughs.
I think everyone has been putting in so much effort with the spectacular and moving the studio that everyone has appeared a bit tired lately and less enthused about making the videos.
Great picks! Some that I have enjoyed and didn't make your lists would be Fox in the Forest and Hanamikoji. I really enjoy playing Kingdomino, Istanbul the Dice Game, and Port Royal with my husband as well but I think those might be just as good or better with more players. An odd one I actually like best with two but everyone things I'm crazy is Citadels haha. I only want to play it as a 2-player game.
Thanks for all the fun, guys!!!!
Mandala and Hive have been our most played games, hands down. Great for taking on holiday
Targi, Air, Land & Sea and Onitama are worth a try, too.
This same argument came up three years ago... 7 Wonders Duel isn't a "casual" game. It's a GREAT game, but not a casual game.
When I heard about this list, that was the first game I thought of - because of who I play it with. Then I immediately had a similar debate in my head if it was appropriate or not. Semantics maybe, but it was a fun struggle.
Yeah totally.. And Targi! Another great game but casual? Cmon..
Yeah. Putting Duel there is just absurd
I agree. I play it every few months and I still spend a lot of time during the game looking at the rulebook for symbology and rules both.
Duel (and the expansions) are my all-time favourite game...and while I feel confident that I could teach it to most, this is definitely not a game I could easily play with most of my family members, whereas Fox in the Forest, Archaeology, etc. are much, much easier to get them to play and enjoy.
I think Tom's problem with the complexity scale can be solved by one simple thing- to realize that the complexity curve is probably a bell curve, not a linear one. Because a lot of people are probably going to rank something 2-3. Star Fleet Battles is one of the most complex games around but it's only 4.25, Harpoon is only about a 4.3
Love these videos. The banter is so fun as are hearing the rankings!
Casual: Short setup; Short rules list; Not terribly weighted towards the player who has played more often.
Mike, no shame using BGG weight. Sure, sometimes the weight is off…but I have found the metric to be very helpful. The main knock for the metric would be newer games that have low vote count.
All the grief Tom gave Mike about using the BGG complexity scale became a moot point when 7 Wonders Duel came up on his list. Maybe he should have utilized the scale himself. 😆
These top tens are so enjoyable. Thank you.
We almost solely play Santorini without the God powers. It's mostly just been a fun pure abstract game where we can pit our wits against each other with the wonderfully simple rulseset.
We've only used God powers a few times for a sort of wildcard game to spice things up, but without was always the standard.
Really enjoyed the chemistry of these three for this list
I gotta add some games to the pile ... Forbidden Desert, Hanimakoji, Karuba, Potion Explosion, Jamaica, and . When new players arrive for game night, these are the ones, along with Jaipur, that get put on the table.
Shocked to not see Crokinole. I know the board can be expensive, but it is one of the Kings of this category.
Rarely shows up on the lists. I’m not sure they are big fans of it.
I don't think most casual gamers are going to shell out for it.
Top ten list suggestions:
-game designers (updated)
-games where mechanisms and themes mesh well
How about top ten favorite artists
Love Roam at 2.
I'm not sure these three have even played it. IIRC Sam did the review.
Codenames Duet is brilliant.
A few years ago I bought a bunch of games for me and my then girlfriend to play; I got a range of totally different types of games, Codenames Duet was one of them. It's brilliant. It was about the only thing that tamed her animosity ;) I also played it with my Dad after he had a stroke and it was a good exercise for both of us, and produced funny moments too.
With the exgf...
I said "nose, 2."
"what kind of stupid clue is that? How am I su...? There's noth.... I .... I don't.... ok, CHEESE"
"Yes"
She got the second one too, also a bit abstract, but I don't remember what it was. Super fun.
It's funny that I would have almost entirely chosen abstract strategy games for this, cause so many of them have very simple rules, like Kamisado, Kick It, Blocks, Moeraki Kemu or really most anything from Gerhards
Mandala is the best casual two player to me. The player’s control over the card’s point worth at the end is awesome. Very classic card game feel to it, but at the same time it has a modern feel to it as well. This game also makes a great “not too serious” coffee conversation game for couples too. Highly recommend it. Would make an ideal app. It’s up there with Jaipur.
In general I agree (even with Tom's Memoir '44) with the lists. I especially like Lost Cities, Onitama, and BattleLine.
But here's some that are awesome two player games that weren't even mentioned:
Hive
Naga Raja
Flick 'em Up
Ice Cool
Project L
and my #1......The Duke!!!!
I love Hive, but after I got very good at the game my girlfriend stopped playing with me after her third total lockout.
It has a skill gap in thr same way chess does. I do hope it's on the competitive 2 player list thougj.
@@nicka.9057 : Hive does have a "skill gap", just like chess or the Duke.
Winning isn't everything because having fun is more important with games.
So, you have a few options....play stupid to allow your partner a chance to win, just allow it to be a friendly game, or choose a game that is based upon randomness rather than tactics.
Naga Raja is a great two player game and might be something you and your wife might enjoy.
Onitama is not something I would put on a casual list, because it is thinky....Zee was 100% right, it makes you feel anxious, especially if you aren't an abstract game player. It evokes all the same stress of chess. I think something like Santorini which hides the abstractness underneath a fun theme and associated special power makes it less brain vs brain.
True it's hard & stressful.
I dont find Santorini to be any less "thinky" than Onitama. Basically no abstract games really feel casual.
@@IdlestHands thanks for the interesting response.. I agree Santorini is very abstract. I think though that as theme and/or random chance increase, the fear-of-chess-ness goes down. If the theme is there strongly enough I guess it stops being "abstract", but it could be totally themeless and have a little random chance mixed in and end up being appealing to people who run the other way at Onitama. One example of a place where theme helps might be something like Calico (which I haven't played) or Seikatsu (which I have played) where the charming theme sort of relaxes the atmosphere enough that you don't feel compelled to be a master strategist, and can just sort of have fun and be surprised in the end what your score is...maybe you win, maybe you don't.
I guess I feel like Santorini isn't quite as anxiety inducing because there are only two thing you can do on a turn as opposed to Onitama where you can chess-ify it quite a lot with complex multi-turn strategy....or maybe I'm just so bad at abstract strategy that I play Santorini like a dummy and just go turn by turn lol 😉😜
I prefer my games loaded with theme and I prefer my strategy to rely at least partly on social manipulation (bluffing, diversion, etc).
I liked stratego as a kid and hera and zeus for instance.
Anyway, happy gaming! 😊
When you play these types of games, either with kids or "newbies", do you ever loose on purpose for whatever reason (make them happy, increase the likelyhood they will play again, etc.)
Never
I agree with Zee's point here, a game like Tatsu is shrouded enough in theme that a casual gamer will not see through and be on their guard
Extra caveats for casual definitively have to include; set up time, length of game and whether you can teach it to practically anyone. Memoir does not fit in my definition. I do understand where Tom is mostly coming from though.
Thanks for those added criteria. I think it's why Unmatched feels very casual. Lightning quick set up/take down, games are very short, rule set is simple, board is clean...it's just learning how to play your character but I guess that's like the Street Fighter video games. Memoir, Duel, Targi, they are the games that feel "in between" the connotations of "Top 10 Casual" and "Top 10 Strategic"
@@adamg4912 couldn’t agree more. Set up is a big deal for me. Unmatched is a more apt choice.
Age of War is a pretty good casual 2 player.
More like a pretty casual good 2 player.
The definition of CASUAL is the real question here. I found Wingspan easy to learn, teach and play. Although it isn’t a game I would recommend be bought early on in the hobby. Although having said that it could be. That would be another list = Essential Must Own Games or First Games to Own. We play a lot of 2 player due to the current climate and we found Targi easier than 7 Wonders Duel to learn and play casually.
Need a "games for enemies" list
BGG crowd sourced wts aside… the original Let’s Make a Bus Route was the first game I played at a con as a new gamer several years ago and that was the game that really made it click for me why I love board games. It is a really simple game with the perfect amount of crunch & complexity. It was addictive and I had to play it again immediately then every day of the con until I was teaching it - my 1st time teaching a game too.
I've had Onitama on my wishlist for a long time now. But Zee's take I think has made me finally put it away...
Memoir 44 is an awesome game and kudos to Tom for adding it to the list… this is NOT complicated to play at all!!
My favorite 2 player game is 13 Days, but I’m not sure you’d consider it casual. For a more casual game, not for only two players, I like Qwirkle. Other ones we have include Hardback, Star Realms, Holmes-Sherlock & Mycroft, Lost Cities and several micro games. Tom, once we played Hardback, we never played Paperback again.
Cribbage - why haven’t you done a review! Talked about Rook
I've heard some people say there's too much luck involved but I enjoy Cribbage quite a lot, could play for hours just enjoying someone's company! It's been around so long for a reason, right?
Cribbage is the ultimate casual game. Nice mix of luck and skill. A pleasure to play eppecially when the other play knows all the nuances.
My dad taught me Cribbage as a kid and I've loved it ever since.
You really need to let Mike do a Top 100 games from Japan. 😀
Scoring in Lost Cities becomes easier when you remember that it doesn't matter by how many points you win. Often we'll just LOOK at the end state of the board and it will be obvious who won the round. If it's at all uncertain, then we'll count. But it does make things faster, and I reckon, more exciting when you can just say, "oof, you sure took that one, let's go again"
Well, that's not quite true! The game is over three rounds, and whoever has the most points over that many rounds wins. So it's not a "best of three" type game, because a huge score in one round can beat smaller scores in other rounds.
Say whaaat! Then I've been playing it wrong. I thought it was Streetfighter 2 style and a win is a win. I wonder if I'll play as recklessly going forward knowing that it matters in the long run. Let's see......
What about Android: Netrunner? ---- That should be a No Brainer! :-) That's actually the game that my wife and I "cut our teeth on" when we got into gaming... LOL Would NOT go that route now though.... Great Vid!
Great to see Memoir 44 on this list. I love the uncertainty in it and the possibilities it creates. Yes it is WWII. Nothing what we want experience again RL. But some pple don't like Battlelore because it's a fantasy setting. So just play it for the fun of the game with a friend. Two thumbs up for 7 Wonders Duel
Zee, you could maybe try and find some merchandise for Zagreb, maybe they might shorten to ZG :D
Trambahn would definitely be on my list. I highly recommend it as a fun light card game for 2.
Nice hat Tom.
Tom you got such good hair! I think you shouldn't hide it with those hats... as awesome as they are.
For Deck Builders at 2 player my wife and I love Volfyrion by Tabula games. It's similar to star realms, with great colour art and also has a co-mode.
Zee always forgets backgammon :D
Backgammon needs some more love on this channel. It's definitely having a bit of a resurgence online.
@@tomobrien1068 much like Chess
Zee casually made a list of games under 2.0 weight without even trying it 😂
Codename games remind me of a mid 70s to early 80s game show called Password
Just played Tatsu the other day, nice pick
I dont understand people's obsession with Onitama. Yes, it's pretty but it's such a brain burner it just gives me huge analysis paralysis and like Zee said it makes me feel stupid (which is never fun)
I played it and hated it and I agree that it may make you feel like you are stupid if you play with someone who is good at it and enjoys this kind of games.
Great stuff. Good chemistry.
@Zee the Capital of Croatia is Zagreb. Guess what the abbreviation is? ZG
Not super big on trick taking games but I do enjoy Fox in the Forest.
You've done lists on games that are overrated or underrated -- I think it would be interesting to have a list of games you feel are less or more complex than the BGG complexity rating.
It would also give a good opportunity to demonstrate how BGG complexity scores can be misleading, something I agree with.
Looked for Let's Make a Bus Route (Dice) on the BGG store and it wasn't there. What am I doing wrong, Mike?
It only appears in your browser if you are in an actual bus.
@@Steve-L I wish this was as funny as it was unhelpful :)
A Zeenus flytrap
🤣
I wanna see top 10 games you play with enemies.
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I don't understand Tom's gripe with the weight ratings. The scale is 1 to 5, so the difference between 1 and 1.75 say is quite significant. If it was out of 10 thats the difference between a 1/10 and a 3.5/10.
Compared to Campaign for North Africa at say 10/10, Santorini being a 3.5 and Candyland being a 1 makes perfect sense. In fact it's almost making Santorini out to be heavier than it is.
Zee loves Zaragoza in Spain.
Whoa, Lost Cities is the first hobby game I bought at a game store to play with my mom.
Very useful top 10, it makes a good list of gift ideas to couples 😊
Can you make a similar top 10 two-player games but for gamers?
I just learned 7 wonders duel and it is not casual. Took me 3 full games to really learn it. And the game is so cutthroat the person learning will not enjoy it because they will get steam rolled by the end of the second age.
I think that Tom is probably biased since he likely played dozens or hundreds of games of Seven Wonders before playing Duel. He didn't start from zero with learning that game and didn't recognizing the complexity of it for casual/new gamers that haven't played the original. My family found it to be more of a mid-weight than a light/casual game. Even if I personally consider it light. Having played dozens/hundreds of games of Seven Wonders. :)
Targi is deep but pretty simple, I taught it to my wife and with the words side it wasn't that bad. She also prefers lighter games like Tom's (she could destroy me if she wasn't so tired from taking care of more important things)
What do You think about riftforce?
Cold War : CIA vs KGB is a very interesting card game !
Have you guys tried/ liked the new game Mob?
by Tom's number 7, I wonder if Twilight Struggle will appear on this list :D
Zee seems to think that it’s hard to teach Memoir 44 because he assumes everyone else’s eyes glaze over like his when the phrase “war game” is said, but that holds true for any genre. If you find the theme or variety of game boring, no amount of elegant design will make the teaching process painless.
My favorites are Lost Cities, Santorini, and Azul
1:25:07 Yes Zee, there is! Zaragoza in Spain. 😁
Casual and gateway are not the same list. Just because a game is casual it doesnt mean it needs to be an introduction to gaming. I have been playing board games for years, but I still love casual games because I dont always have the time or energy for Gloomhaven.
I like bgg weight as a reference...it is like a pff grade in football. Shouldn't be the only way you judge a thing, but it is a tool.
I largely never use the god powers in Santorini
1:25:13 But what about an MD mug for Mike?! The Dr. is in the house! :-)
I like Zee's choice at #1, Archaeology, but I don't think he sold it very well. The great feature of the game, which Zee never mentions, is that it's a "press your luck" game wherein the bigger sets result in exponentially more points but you run the risk of a sandstorm or a robber totally ruining the plan. A couple of other notes: I don't agree that 7 Wonders Duel is in any way "casual". And where is Kingdomino?
1:10:15 Well to answer that you could try playing Patchwork Express. 😅
Nevermind atleast they mentioned it at the end
Does anybody like patchwork as a casual 2 player game?
to me casual does not mean complexity but means a game where you can have a conversation while playing