I always thought that using the knowledge he gain from the experiments to save lives would make their sacrifice at least have some kind of meaning. If I was blinded in some terrible unethical experiment I would actually feel better knowing that what was learned helped someone else keep their sight..
@@KnightRaymund Problem here: It wasnt a sacrifice. They were killed, that is something else then a sacrifice. I see it the same way as you, i would be a hyppocryte if i wouldnt, but i think this has to be addressed.
it's also not the same situation. At all. Nobody was coming to the defense of the actual butcher of Galitep. This hologram is not a real person but is based on the data collected by a Nazi who tortured Bajorans.
It ran into a repeated issue the series itself had throughout it's run that it struggled with and sometimes fumbled on was "ethics and treatment of holographic life". Haven't looked at your full playlist but yeah that issue alone could make it's own video with how it was addressed and sometimes misaddressed in the series. Your conclusion toward the end does lampshade the big issue with the episodes ethical quandary in that it wasn't the best written or it had constraints forced on it that kept it from doing what Duet did and addressing it head on instead opting for the safer he "might" have done these things but we don't know...which yeah as trigger warning at beginning indicates is a good way to set off a ton of people since the argument for holocaust deniers is "we don't know" or "we didn't see it", it does make me curious about the modern medical curriculum when pursuing a degree in medicine and how it addresses these ethical questions.
I mean honestly in Star Trek, we see very '''''''good" Cardassians and when we do, they killed off. And since he was a hologram, they could just altered his image to something more comforting to them. And you definitely brought up some thoughts I never considered.
One issue with your idea was that during that episode, the amount of knowledge from the Cardassian's writings was to large to maintain in the ship's database. So it would be wasteful to add the ethics program into something that was going to be removed immediately after the surgery.
You can't really hit Tabor for racism here--not in this instance. When the hologram comes live, he says "My God, that's Crell Moset." It's the individual that bothers him. And yes, I agree that a small child is an unreliable witness in such a situation. There's also a snag I hit when I try to suspend disbelief, and it's that the dilemma is so unnecessary, even ridiculous. The computer has the medical data in its memory, why doesn't the Doc just access it and read it and come up with a cure that way? Is simulating an AI really the most efficient way to process info? And does it have to be a simulation of the person who did the research? Couldn't he customize an avatar? Or, since he's a holographic AI himself, couldn't he just download the data into his own program? In fact, why would there be any medical data in _Voyager's_ computers that he hadn't already downloaded years ago? And I know that Geordi did this before with Leah Brahms (which reminds me: Isn't it unethical to create a simulation of a living person without their consent?) and it was just as silly then, but they didn't use it as the basis of such a contentious dilemma.
I agree with all your points, and would add that some doctors also pursue knowledge in secret, so how much of the Federation medicine is actually based on ethical research and experimentation? I would think there isn't just one single doctor that did unethical research, and yet that information is included in Federation databases? As for using holograms of living people, yeah, that's an invasion of their privacy.
They could have avoided it entirely by just copying the data directly into the Doctor's program. That had to be a quicker and easier solution than creating a new holographic exobiology expert from scratch. Even though they made it look totally simple despite the fact when Harry attempted to recreate the Doctor he failed miserably. The only reason he was created as he was was to create a story, if anyone had acted intelligently at any point the episode would have been over in ten minutes.
It actually takes away part of the issue. Can you use Data obtained by experiments of a Nazi doctor to cure a Jew who lost his parents in the Shoah? Probably. - But it would be definitly false to hurt his feelings needlesly afterwards by telling him "btw. we used a Nazi method to cure you".
The weirdest part of this is that we already had to make a decision on this as a society and decided basically what you said. We use Nazi research. Most of what we know about hypothermia was determined during brutal Nazi tests.
The problem with saying that Crell Moset is a direct allusion to Mengele is that Crell's behavior in the episode would have been Mengele on a GOOD day. Mengele's experiments were largely void of any scientific reasoning and basis, and were often for his sense of medical "curiosity." There is a pretty telling moment during the actual operation when holo-Crell recommends killing the alien attached to B'Elanna to at least save B'Elanna's life, while the EMH actually finds a way to save both of them. Holo-Crell then immediately starts expanding on this idea, and it's thanks to his abilities that they save both. Mengele never would have done that, at least from the information we currently possess about him. Mengele was the Auschwitz "Angel of Death," killing numerous people through his experiments as though they were pieces on an assembly line, while Crell, assuming that the hologram is an accurate representation of the man, leaped at the opportunity to save both creatures as soon as the situation presented itself. There are a few other things to note: 1. Using medical information gained by unethical means is something that has happened for hundreds of years. If we are to use the Nazi-era scientists as an example, their experiments in gas poisoning and ESPECIALLY hypothermia recovery is information that might have waited decades to be discovered otherwise. That's information we still actively use. Even if we step away from Nazis, we can look at Jonas Salk, who injected insane asylum patients with a flu vaccine that was in the experimental phase, presumably with less-than-ethical consent. Does that therefore invalidate the information we gained from it? Does it invalidate the polio vaccine that he also developed, if it were found that it too was done so unethically in trials despite changing the lives of thousands for the better? 2. The framing of the issue becomes a lot more difficult because of the setting. In the 24th century, it is entirely possible that simulations of vaccines, diseases, and cures can be performed with highly-calculated accuracy. Here in the 21st century however, such a thing isn't nearly as plausible. The reason why we perform on "less-sentient" animals is to avoid the potential ramifications of human cost. "Nothing Human" actually points out that it's convenient to draw a line between people and animal, which is a high point in the discussion. Nevertheless, the TNG episode "Ethics" is stronger because it deals with 24th century medical ethics in a 24th century setting. The connection between time and practice is more coherent in that episode. 3. As for the metaphysical question about how the people who died would feel about their deaths being used to cure others later in the future? I'm sorry, but if we're going to pretend that we all actively seek to better the lives of humanity, especially in the 24th century, this is a non-issue made into an issue. IF those people were alive, their potential emotions would be a legitimate complication. But since they aren't, it's a waste of time and energy. Assuming that heaven exists, where everyone there is at peace and content, I really don't think they would care. Life is meant to be lived, not prematurely ended, especially if you have the medical knowledge to save life and choose not to. Besides, if we're all supposed to go to heaven when we die, what's the harm in putting off the trip for a while? 4. Seven of Nine has the knowledge of millions of species that was obtained unethically through non-consented assimilation. If you want to see similar ideas tackled with more intelligence in the Trek universe, TNG's "Ethics" like I previously mentioned, and DS9's "Duet" for dealing with a LIVING, presumed murderer for seeming sadistic pleasure, are what I would recommend.
I actually agree with them deleting the hologram, but I strongly disagree with them deleting his research on Xenobiology. The logic that keeping it would validate his methods is, I think, stupid and shows a complete misunderstanding of history. There are so many things we have today that were built, brick by brick on fields filled with corpses. The ghosts of the past haunt every single advancement made, politically, scientifically, philosophically, everything. I mean, just ponder how important say, the Roman Empire was to the current state of the world and ask just how many corpses are probably buried in it's foundation. Not to mention how many are almost assuredly in the foundation of the 'United Earth', the precursor to the idealistic Starfleet. You don't just ERASE that stuff. You don't pretend it never happened, you don't purge the name from the tablet. The moral obligation of everyone who benefits from the suffering of those who came before is to understand how and why they suffered and making sure that we do not repeat those mistakes and do better in the future. By Tuvocs logic, there are mountains of our history that would have to be ejected into the sun, because to do otherwise would be to endorse it's evil and that is nonsense.
Maybe but this episode was intended to essentialy replicate a discussion that at this point is a good 60-70 years old. during the 30s and 40s Nazi scientists engaged in research on Concentration camp victems etc. and there's been a long debate on weather or not we should use that research or not.
But it's Voyager, you must erase bad guys and make sure no one knows why they are bad. Regardless of the reality that that just allows the badguys to be repeated again and again, because no one knows what makes them evil. I mean no one knows what the fucking Nazis did, no one knows how they ran Germany. "No one" or rather the knowledge and records exist but we ignore it to blame others of being Nazis while ignoring governments actual practices that mirror the Nazis and praising it while still screeching hatred of all things Germanic.
The problem with keeping parts of hologram programs around even in what would seem like reasonably 'safe' conditions is pretty well explored in all the TNG era Trek series, Moriarty waking up in 'Ship in a Bottle' all the way to everything that happened to/with the Doctor. Federation holograms that tread the line of sapience either through design, like Moriarty, or circumstance like the Doctor's program needing to be active 24/7 fall into a sort of 'Schroedinger's Sapience' where basically all their code and files are at once 'just code' as well as being 'alive.' And since Voyager takes place well after Moriarty, wiping everything about the program including the 'results' might be necessary to keep any part of that code from lurking in the ship's computers and potentially becoming 'alive' again like the 'Latent Image' code that they tried to scrub from the Doctor's program.
The senario depicted here is poisioned before we even start. Trek has used the Cardassians as the bad guys in just about everything they do, they shove this down our throats with ruthless force. We are told time and again how nasty the Cardassians are to their prisoners. To thir slaves, whom they work to death, what conditions ar elike in the internmant camps and the like, we are also told how they like to abuse the female prisoners. We've even seen this with some of these women having unwanted children. We've seen those children too. I could go on. The casual hatred the Bajorans have fo the Cardassians is not something that came up overnight, it takes some serious events to take place and they are even mentioned too. Plague outbreaks, massacres and all sorts of other nasty crap that happens because my world is being occupied.
In general, they are presented "as the bad guys"... but the species (well, individual characters) are not so one-dimensional. Remember the scientist who thought she and O'Brian were beginning some courtship ritual. There's Garak and Dukat are both extremely complex (and extremely different) characters. Damar grew/changed in ways I didn't expect. That guy from the DS9 episode "Duet"... The Cardassians of TNG/VOY/DS9 are not like, for example, the Klingons of TOS.
There was also Gul Evek, who lost 2 of his 3 sons in the last war with the Federation (Family is important to Cardassians), and he rather went against cardassian doctrine and laid down his arms rather than starting another war and losing his third son by insisting on something as benign as a small survey. Then there was the dissident movement on Cardassia, involving even high ranking military officers trying to undermine the Stasi-like Obsidian Orders hold over the Population and Government. Cardassians often arent bad people, they definitely rarely are bad to each other, but they live in a system that desensitizes them to the value of life in other species compared to their own, to be patriotic, for Cardassia. If it takes the death of a Bajoran to save the life of a Cardassian, then its a worthwhile trade. Hell, even if it makes the Cardassians life a bit easier and more pleasant its still worth it. And very few people think independently enough to break this kind of indoctrination, like Garak, because its hard to think differently if all around you see your kin treating Bajorans like sub-human (sub-cardassian?), and you have no way to not do it yourself too, not because you want to be cruel but because youre just stuck in this way of life where you benefit from that misery you cause. But what I have only rarely seen was Cardassians being cruel for its own sake. They typically dont harm if there is nothing to gain from them, they arent sadists, they are merely exploitative. No atrocity they commited was without motive or advantage to them. They werent mad or insane, there was method to what they did. And thats what always made the Cardassians threedimensional villains, because if it was to their advantage they could also be your best ally and the biggest humanitarian. Those things just never were to their perceived advantage.
*anon1152* Damar became an almost heroic figure in the latter half of season 7. DS9 had some of the best storylines, scripts & acting talent in the whole of Star Trek
Keep in mind that the Cardassians where proably used BECAUSE we knew how bad they where. it was obvious to me the episode was designed to stand in for commentary on Nazi biological research on Holocaust victiems during the 30s and 40s, which is even today something of a medical ethics debate
The argument by Gul Darheel (Or at least the man pretending to be Gul Darheel) I think should be examined at least a little as to explain why the Cardassians are the 'bad guys'. "We were fighting for our lives too, we had an Empire to maintain!" While certainly a self serving motive, look at how easily Cardassia crumbled under the weight of the Klingon Empire, imagine the millions, if not billions of Cardassians who were killed in the Cadassian-Klingon war, and we see that the ruthlessness of Cardassia is thanks to the fact they are a minor power trying to take on many of the major powers of the galaxy. The Federation doesn't have to worry because it is already a massive paradise (a very well armed Utopia), and while the Federation may not be a threat, the Klingons, and even the Romulans or Breen are. While it certainly doesn't justify their actions, I think it does go a little ways toward explaining it.
As an aside, the Imperial Japanese also did extensive medical experimentation on Chinese POWs during WWII, on a much larger scale than the Germans. Supposedly the scientists used their findings to get more lenient treatment after the war. Edit: it was called unit 731 and they were actually granted amnesty for trading their research civilians were also used in the experiments.
Information in and of it's self is not evil or good it is just objective information and how said information was gained does not color it in a good for evil light. If the information is useful and can lead to good being down would that not be a better form of justice than to shun knowledge for some vapid virtual signaling? An evil act can give rise to good just as a good intention can give way to great evil so it always pays to really think and consider rather than go with a knee jerk emotional response to anything.
As a history buff, and former Navy Hospital Corpsman, I WAS going to chastise you and point you to Dr. Josef Mengele and Auschwitz, however, at the end you addressed this and make a valid point, and also demonstrated that you actually did do the historical research. (You'd be surprised how many folks your age are ignorant about the Holocaust, even to the point that they deny it ever happened.) Also, it's not like American doctors never did this sort of thing. (Look up the "Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment.") As you stated, we are talking about a holographic simulation, not the man himself. Also, he actually did produce a positive medical result. (even if his methods were unethical and most likely classified as "war crimes") Also. it is an extraordinary circumstance. (you know, it's not like they can call up Starfleet Medical or the Daystrom Institute and get a specialist) Do I approve of this Cardassian doctor and his experiments? No, I do not. This is one of those cases where the ends do not justify the means. If I were in the type of extreme situation they were in, and my doctor (ironically also a hologram) and this the only thing that could save my life is utilizing the RESULTS of this "research," but not the methodology, I most likely. allow it. (Since B'Lanna was unable to maker that decision herself, it would fall to someone acting as a medical proxy) What I don't understand (and I will have to re-watch the episode to see this) is The Doctor's data base contains all the medical knowledge from Hippocrates until the 24th Century, as well as the work of probably hundreds or even thousands of xenophysicians, why create the hologram? Can't he access the raw data without creating a hologram? if the computer has enough on file to create a Hologram of this Cardassian doctor, then they have enough for the Doctor to do his job without a "Holographic consultation." There is one other thing you do not mention. The Doctor has an ethical subroutine, and he, although only a hologram, is bound by the Hippocratic Oath, and would only resort to this methodology if it was the ONLY way he could save his patient.
Ends don't justify the means. In relation to the use of any procedures Mengele's caseused, what means? The dead don't care & medicine primarily concerns itself with the living. If we can use a technique devised by Mengele to stop a child today from suffering, who are we to refuse to utilise such a technique, just because it doesn't sit well with our sensibilities? Like I said, the dead don't care.
It does seem like there shouldn't have been a need to make the hologram. However, I might be willing to accept it as a plot device if everything that came after resulted in a logical and meaningful ethical discussion. I do want to point out that while the hologram isn't the man himself, it was made to think and behave as close to the original as possible. If the original was indeed capable of conducting the unethical experiments he was suspected to, then it's possible his holographic facsimile was capable of similar acts. Therefore, it seemed like a good choice to delete it, although they could've instead added some ethical subroutines to him.
The thing I like about this channel is that it gives a different way of looking at things. Now as far as Dr. Mengele, he actually died in South America and escaped justice. There were many witnesses to his crimes so it wasn't like there was any doubt as to if he did it. By the way, I was in the United States Army during Operation Desert Storm (Gulf War for the civilians out there) and they gave us some white pills to take that was supposed to help with the effects of the nerve gas agent. Two weeks in, my commander said "I'm not taking any more of these pills and you don't have to either". I never developed the Gulf War illness and I mention the pills from time to time but to no effect. It seems that it doesn't matter. So that may have been experimentation on us but I have no proof. Something worth thinking about. As stated in the video, little is given about this Cardassian except of rumors of what he did. There would have been a lot more info on him if he had done such things though it was during the occupation, and concerning Germany, they (the Germans) kept very good records. So truthfully, we do not know whether he did anything or not as we have little to go on. Also, if you take the Cardassian Garak, you see a more complex character that only Dr. Bashir gets to see as he was his only friend there. No one is all good or all evil, though Mengele came as close to the evil part as he could. Garak in his pain even yelled at Dr. Bashir saying along the lines of maybe he was getting exactly what he deserved. I am rambling but I will say one more thing. This happened today as my friend and I were leaving a restaurant. He was commenting on her attitude and I didn't notice anything but I pointed out that "I am not inside her mind so I can't say what she was thinking". Now, she didn't say anything, but you can make up a lot of stories about what you believe someone else is thinking. Food for thought.
I agree that it would have been a better story if they gave us a definitive answer on whether or not if this guy did those atrocities or not. We do know that the Cardassians did horrific things to the Bajorians during the Occupation, but in dealing with War Crimes we need to know more details. Also, trying to remember if Nothing Human take place before or after Paris and Torres got married. Because if they were married then by modern legal standards Paris would have Power of Attorney and can consent for medical procedures for Torres if she is unable to consent
When they decide to make an alliance with the Kazon in the episode "Alliances", B'Elanna has no issue contacting Seska, a real (non-holographic) Cardassian that had betrayed them
The Cardassian doctor in the episode is a stand-in for Dr. Josef Mengele. That's why the Bajoran officer's story isn't questioned: the "is he guilty" question was decided at Nuremberg, the question the crew are discussing is "can we use his research".
@Amber Hoke It's more of a question of morality than a question of legality. For example, is it moral to use research that was gained by harvesting the hearts of healthy infants that were simply born the "wrong" race, as happened in the Yemenite children affair? (And yes, this literally happened to probably thousands of babies.) Are the people who did the research morally culpable if they didn't know that the children were killed as part of a coordinated, state-mandated ethnic cleansing? What kind of compensation is just for kidnapping and murdering someone's newborn baby--if any kind of compensation could be called a form of justice? What should the consequences be for the people responsible for the ethnic cleansing? These are important questions that we must think about despite them being uncomfortable and painful, but there are no simple answers. In the end what we as a society decide says something about who we are as people just as much as the human propensity for genocide over arbitrary differences says something about who we are. We must shine light on humanity's darkest excesses if we have any hope of changing. Our natural impulse is to want to look away, to want to believe that we're better, to want to believe that we would do things differently, but if it came down to it--would you still want your life or your family member's life to be saved if you knew the treatment came from the harvested organs of an innocent baby? Does the willingness of the researchers to obtain infant hearts while not knowing where they came from, the willingness to spend money on those "resources", money that in the end funded and justified genocide, make those researchers culpable? Does using the research make you culpable? Does saving lives balance the scale of senseless deaths or does it simply spread the blood to more peoples' hands? I don't know the answers but I do think we all need to ask the questions, and Star Trek at its best is very good at asking those kind of questions.
10:45 I know i'm about half a year late here but it wasn't the Nazi experiments that were a real parallel here. Those experiments were flawed and focused on the Nazi's belief in racial superiority which was a flawed premise to begin with and therefore yielded little results. What DID yield significant results is WW2 ERA Japanese human experimentation on Chinese people. Doctor Shirō Ishii lead his Unit 731 and did extensive research on infectious disease by deliberately infecting people and then doing painful invasive experiments on victims, including LIVE autopsies, and surgeries on AWAKE victims with no pain suppressant. They released diseases on unsuspecting villages then go in a document the spread, and get subjects for experiments and bring them back to the lab. After the war you'd expect him to be prosecuted as a war criminal but was instead given full immunity by the United States in exchange for his research which has been used extensively in the years since, since it is research that could not ethically be obtained any other way.
So under Tuvok's logic does that mean the various rocket missions the US did, the most famous of which being the Apollo Moon Missions, just legitimizes Nazi Germany attacking the UK and Belgium with V-2 Rockets?
Doctor orders large quantities of disease, days later that same disease breaks out in the locality of his hospital where that disease had never previously been seen.... and you're shocked they drew the conclusion they did?
I'd forgotten how terribly this episode was written. You inspired me to rewatch TNG's Drumhead as a better discussion of xenophobia and DS9's Duet - Harris Yulin's portrayl of Marritza/Gul Darhe'el is chilling! Also, I'm having some trouble finding your guild on STO. I've recently started playing again and would love a guild to hang out in.
Check out Leah Brahms for the difference between a holographic simulation and a real person, and that was someone the computer had enormous information about. Yet when Geordi met the actual woman, he found the simulation didn't quite get her right.
Excellent video! You play the reality of "reality"excellently. You make the following point clear: There are three sides to history: 1. Their side 2. Our side 3. The truth Waiting hungry for more.
Could Janeway force Torres to have the treatment? YES! We learned in a TNG episode that an officer will sometimes have to order a subordinate to so something that will directly result in them dying if it will save the ship. It is only logical that taking extraordinary measures to save someone is also allowed in the same instances.
The hologram was called ''Medical Consultant Program'' ... they should have never allowed him to assume the identity of a real person. They could have given him a random appearance and tweaked his subroutines to make him a unique personality. Problem solved.
The drumhead. Great episode. But Picard’s speech hardly applies to Krell. Yes, you shouldn’t be punished for the sins of your ancestors (or in the case of The Drumhead, you shouldn’t be punished because one of your grandparents belongs to a race that is a current enemy). But Krell isn’t exactly a descendant of an oppressive race. He isn’t even the specific descendant of a specific war criminal. He is a holographic version of a very specific war criminal. When you say that “the hologram Krell could not impact the actions of the real Krell he had no ability to stop hi or aid him just like you [7 of 9] couldn’t help your actions wit the Borg… but…we assume the hologram Krell is the bad guy…” Well. Yes. We assume he is the bad guy. Not because the hologram Krell helped the real Krell or could have stopped but didn’t stop the real Krell but because hologram Krell is, in some sense, Krell IS the same guy. And towards the end of the episode it is clear that hologram Krell has little regard for the individual rights of people who aren’t part of his group (whatever group that might be). He was willing to make the alien suffer and die to his mission, even though the same goal could be (and was) accomplished in a non-lethal way. Towards the end of the episode Krell seems more and more like the guy that Tabor and the other Maquis remember. But wait. Is Krell “a guy” at all? Is Krell a person? Is The Doctor a person?
I love the analysis. But I feel you are reading deeply into a script that in honesty is so shallow... (This was supposed to be a very shallow Mengela reference)...
Just to follow up: this parallels skin grafting technology gleaned from Nazi unethical experiments that were not used for years due to ethics violations in the process of obtaining that tech... (and to a lesser extent rocket tech from Von Braun).
As cold hearted as this may sound I think any info, even if it was gathered through unethical experimentation should be used otherwise they died for nothing at all, let the medical research be used for good to honor the suffering they went through to get it by helping others. What I think anyhow.
Tabor is wrong. It was never outright stated that he saw these crimes being committed. The Cardassian military rules with an Iron fist and the Bajorans hatred of Cardassians is something that will need several generations to cool. But hey. For all, you haters out there didn't the Cardassians get their comeuppance with the destruction at the end of the Dominion war and the near genocide of the Cardassian species at the hands of the Dominion?. Crell Moset maybe based on an actual person. Who knows, its also never really stated. B'Elanna Torres is also wrong, she hates Cardassians as she fought them in battle and in war, both sides often do things they really shouldn't be doing. Things have a way of happening in war.
Jeri Taylor, the episode's writer, is quoted by Memory Alpha saying this: "We talked about Mengele […] and that was sort of a model, there. Now, he had no compunctions […] [but] we wanted to provide a grayer area of someone who, in his mind, was very justified in doing this, because the greater good would outweigh the cost to the people that he was experimenting on." They don't state it in the episode, but it wouldn't make sense to do that. So looking at external sources (in this case the season 5 DVD commentary) it is inarguable that Moset was based on a real person. Both sides might do bad things in war, but that doesn't make both sides equal or their bad things equivalent. In DS9, there is a conversation between O'Brien and Garak that shows that the Federation believes there are rules in war (leading to the concept of war crimes) but the Cardassians do not limit themselves in the same way. This is not about revenge or racism against the Cardassian Union or all Cardassians; or at least, that's not the primary focus. This is about the actions of one Cardassian and whether to accept the help of a simulation of him is to condone his actions. Going back to Mengele, the Nazi doctor; I have no qualms about taking advantage of the knowledge of many other WW2 Germans, as the Americans and Soviets did once the war was over, but I would seriously question the ethics of taking advantage of any knowledge Mengele and some other Germans might have developed by crueller means.
when they left DS9 the Cardassians had not even joined the Dominion. As far as they know the Cardassians have not ascended into madness, but were still the resentful former occupiers of Bajor and thus had "bad guy" flag waving over their heads. Had Voyager's crew returned just after the final battle on Cardassia Prime, their opinions would be very different.
Uhh...I don't think the crewmembers on Voyager are being racist. Bigoted, yes...but that has everything to do with the previous war that had taken place between Cardassian Union and the Federation, the Maquis resistance in the Demilitarized Zone, and just generally bad past interactions with Cardassians in general. Furthermore, Cardassians were generally not well-liked in the Alpha Quadrant, including the Romulans, the Klingons, and the Federation. To compare it to real-world scenarios, that would be like trying to remain civil to a German only a few years after World War 2. It's going to be pretty difficult, because for the longest time in your mind, they were "the enemy."
Funny how you never heard what happened to all those surviving German soldiers that were POW? Whatever happened to them, I wonder? The history books just ended at the end of the war with the fall of Berlin and doesn't elaborate any further than the war crime trials? Not that I would believe anything in the official record, because a certain rocket scientist got a golden ticket punched to America, when he was as equally to blame for the Nazi war machine as anyone else in the slaughter of civilians; something that only became common knowledge much later on.
Your point? I was referencing WWII as an example of why the Federation wouldn't exactly be buddy-buddy with the Cardassians so soon after a war, because the US wouldn't exactly be buddy-buddy with Germany after WWII. Your blind dismissal of anything in official record tells me you're someone who THINKS they're smart, but is actually still really dumb. Just because one rocket scientist got a free pass despite committing war crimes does not mean that everyone got a free pass. Some did, some didn't. Don't cherry-pick your facts and then proceed to paint everything else with a broad brush; reality does NOT work like that. It is infinitely more complex. Besides, the US committed war crimes during WWII as well. You're preaching to a well-versed choir at this point, so I'd quit while you're behind.
This was a nice change from your conventional "lore" and good to hear your thoughts on the subject (or at least as far as VOY haphazardly presented it). Looking forward to the Vidiian series!
How about the tng episode where obrian says he does not hate the cardassians but what the cardassians made him... cardassians were called spoon heads and such by federation soldiers.
Japan did a lot of medical experiment/torture. It was called unit 731. The US government gave amnesty for the records those responsible. This episode was interesting and give a I interesting thought. Do we use what can help us medically and psychologically, if it caused intense pain and suffering to any form of life?
Yes, end of story, The act is evil, however knowledge is knowledge and it does not matter where it came from. The people who did those medical/torture experiments should be executed after a fair trial.
I agree with most of your arguments particularly the fact that Janeway's take on whether to use the research was correct but I disagree that the actual Krell might not have done what he was accused of. Purely based on the amount of virus he ordered leans more towards he was using it just as they thought he had. The fact that the amount of people infected kept going up makes me think he wasn't doing what he claimed he was.
I remember watching this episode as a child and feeling sorry for the hologram. I already knew what the Cardasians had done and understood the moral dilemma but "Crell" did not deserve to be erased. He did nothing immoral in the episode, he is not even a true Cardasian. His only crime is to look like the real Crell. And yes, I consider him sentient, he was able to make his own decisions and arguments as the Doctor. As other comments say, there would have been no problem if the Doctor had changed the appearance of the hologram to another species before activating it. It's a shame because I really like episodes where they encounter a non-humanoid species. This is likely to be the case if we find extraterrestrial life. Also, I wonder how it will be for B'Elanna and the others to return to the Alpha quadrant, with the rest of the Maquis already dead or arrested and the real Cardasians had received a great taste of irony, to the point that now they would need the help of the Federation
You don't always learn what you need to know from the places you want to those lessons, or in the way you want to learn them, or from the people you want to learn them from. That doesn't mean those lessons should be ignored or that you approve of how they were learnt (e.g. I don't approve of how many people died or seriously injured themselves trying to invent a flying machine, but I accept the lessons on what they did wrong and what to avoid), just make sure you learn the right things from those lessons.
By the way: "The need of the many outweighs the need of the few". It's engraved in Star Trek DNA. We may criticize Janeway's choice. But she actually made text book Federation "enlightened" moral choice.
Wow, amazing video. Agree 100%. I would also point out that ALL MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE, in truth all knowledge in general stems from questionable sources if you go back far enough. If knowledge is tainted the second a questionable experiment were done, we'd still be tying pointy rocks to sticks.
This episode reeks of the sanctimonious nature of many characters within the franchise. Much of our medical knowledge comes from methodologies that were and in some cases still are illegal. I imagine the illegal experiments performed by the Kardashians would yield more results than those of 1930s to 1940s era scientists because the Cardassians are a Tech tier 2 civilization. It's still wrong but it would have yielded far more medical results than anything in our history due to their Superior knowledge of genetics and interior medicine. It also doesn't really make much of a difference. They deleted a hologram. So what?! The knowledge is still going to be in the information archive of Starfleet Medical so they really didn't change anything.
Also, grave robbing was also instrumental in advancing science by providing cadavers to medical schools when there wasn't enough bodies gifted to science to go around. So yeah, ethical wise, the medicine field can't take the higher moral ground, either. ;)
A Cardassian who worked on Bajorans. Now, it's not etched in stone, but many people have equated the situation between the two planets to the German/Hebrew Genocide. Would this episode have been as contentious had it been a Romulan with a Betazoid or a Bolian (for example)
Well, when an entire world has been subject to what we would call atrocities by a regime of a specific species--the Cardassians--whose culture enshrines the idea of ruthless devotion to the state, one can be forgiven for having a visceral reaction. Having said that, TREK does all too often play the racism card in a totally disturbing way. Having entire races considered genetically loyal or greedy or something like that is just plain wrong be it the Jem'hadar or the Ferengi. Consider the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor lasted something like five times longer than the Holocaust, though, little wonder people felt that way. I generally agree with you about the arguments made. But this also demonstrates why VOY is my second least favorite TREK, the sloppiness of such ideas--not like sloppy the way real life is, but fundamental inconsistencies. I totally understand Tom's reaction as well--I've lost the woman I loved and what I would have done to save her is quite a lot, damn the consequences. But Janeway made the right choice. I do think a better way to approach this would be to consider the tainted nature of all knowledge, all achievement. After all, the Federation was born ultimately out of mass destruction. Vulcans only became peaceful and wise after a history that makes Humanity at its worst look tame. How would any of us deal with the terrible trap in which the Vidians found themselves (the ones with the Phage)?
8:25 pretty much my thoughts for this episode. Also, they have a limited amount of crewmen and can't go to a star fleet station to dock and pick up more and replace lost ones since they are on THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY 75 YEARS FROM THE CLOSEST OUTPOST! Losing any crewmen would be a big loss since they wouldn't be able to replace them, especially higher ranked specialist like the Chief Engineer. I'm reminded of how they lost the real doctor in the first episode. If they didn't have the EMH they would have been super screwed and probably dead. In their situation, you can't afford and losses.
I seriously have referenced this episode not even knowing what series it was from. Why would you refuse to save someone's life regardless of whether the knowledge in how to for instance set a broken leg was learned by someone breaking a leg....
while my parents were constantly negative towards me I just ignored them, and did my own thing it motivated me to be myself and not care what others thinks think of me
It's a computer hologram. Not the actual Cardassian who did the experiments. And the data behind the hologram? Clearly Starfleet command felt the information was important enough to program it into the computer. The decision was made long ago. It's a non-issue. (The Admiral who made that ethical decision was probably far above Janeway's pay-grade.) The **reality** of situation is that you either save B'lanna (who is vital to running the ship), or you don't.
The Terok Nor trilogy of novels goes into details on the Occupation of Bajor. No spoilers but the third book has some in-depth chapters on Krell Mossett Though this would be considered beta cannon though
STAR TREK : DS9 seasons 1 to 7 the CARDASSIANS including GUL DUKAT stated that CARDASSIANS that committed WAR CRIMES during the OCCUPATION were prosecuted and even executed GUL DUKAT : " I DIDN'T KNOW THE DAY TO DAY INTRICACIES OF THE OCCUPATION YES , I CONCEDE WAR CRIMES WERE COMMITTED BY CARDASSIANS OPERATING UNDER THE ORDERS OF THE CENTRAL COMMAND AND I MYSELF COULDN'T STOP THEM OR INTERFERE " so basically the CHAIN OF COMMAND is absolute
I found an interesting article that explored the Cardassian occupation and that the amount of Bajorian causalities were shockingly low over a 50 year period. The Cardassians first and foremost goal was resource exploitation instead of genocide. There were only a couple areas with harsh working conditions with high fatalities but Cardassians weren't interested in killing Bajorans. *EDIT:* I found the website so here's the link: www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/6fcdqz/statistically_the_cardassian_occupation_of_bajor/
I would have thought Tuvok would have quoted Spok "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." They could never afford to loose her skills as chief engineer, as such there personal views of the hologram and the research should be put aside for the good of the ship.
Under normal circumstances B'Elanna would have the "right to die", or at least the right to refuse the treatment she finds personally offensive to her even if it meant the risk of serious injury or death. She is a grown adult with the capacity for reasoned thought. However, her circumstances are not normal. She is, as you say, the chief engineer of a star ship trapped on the wrong side of the galaxy, allowing her to choose death would mean depriving the ship of one of it's senior staff and and expert engineer. The nearest starbase from which a replacement can be acquired is tens of thousands of light years away.
And then there's the time they blew up a Borg ship and the doctor gleefully fondled a medical device they salvaged that could do all kinds of cool things and apparently the fact that it was the result of the assimilation of billions of people was no biggie. Surf Wisely.
After i saw first season of voyager, i was so bored that i skipped lots of episodes. I was first reading description of episode to judge if it´s worthy of wasting my time before watching, and this one looked like not.
It would have been based more on the Japanese medical experimentation. And it is interesting that 'evolved' individuals judge a whole species by the actions of a few.
Rule-based morality where what is right or wrong is simply a question of the action is childish (leading to people saying things like "murder is murder, killing in self-defense is wrong"). Actions are just the transfer of intention to consequence. The correct action to take in a given circumstance is the one that results in the best outcome. So yes, as long as the outcome is better than the alternative the ends will *always* justify the means.
Knowledge is knowledge. It isn't evil no matter how it was discovered. If the multiplication table was created by raping puppies, would you force everyone to forget it?
Tolerate=use of the holograms knowledge, that is her line of logic. You missed out on the fact that Voyager constantly uses Borg technology as the best way to discredit her argument
perhaps even Cardassian law would make Crell's actions illegal but what if the issue is law enforcement. You can see this in Russia. they have laws but how they choose to enforce them or not
there was scope in Voyager to question the possible ethics of doing research on holographic people/beings. The Doctor and his development of self-awareness as a being made up of solid light was one of the best sub-plots of the entire series. Now it would make sense to do medical experiments on something that only resembles a living being and can be wiped off in an instant-but is it ethical when it starts crying out in pain? opportunity missed, to be honest.
You are right about Seven's speech. As for racism there should be mistrust for the Federation citizens because there was war with them not too long ago, and I am not talking about the Dominion War.
You think that we should question the memories and commitments of people who survived/fought against/overcame a brutal occupation... and give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who, you acknowledge, was part of an "occupation" that was "enslaving" people? That sort of argument would be more legitimate in a court, given by a defence attorney. But in a discussion of the ethics of this case and cases like it... I'm not so sure.
First a question - if they thought the idea that Crell was Cardassian would be a problem, why did they not just change him to an Andorian, or Human, or Trill? Second, and more importantly, I think the idea of legitimizing his work is irrelevant. Starfleet had already “legitimized” his work by including it in Voyager’s database. If they had felt it was useless info, I doubt they would have programmed it in. Thirdly, I think the best argument for using Moset’s work would be by using the logic expressed by General Martok. When presented with the option of continuing fighting or not, he voted to continue, knowing that decision would cause more Klingon, Federation and Romulan deaths. Why? He did not want the sacrifice of the fallen warriors to be in vain. In a similar vein, not using the information gained by Moset would only make the deaths of the Bajorans meaningless. At least if the information was used, their deaths would have a greater meaning. Would that justify continuing with inhumane tests? Of course not. But this episode wasn’t creating a situation where the tests would restart. Nothing Voyager did (without violating the Temporal Prime Directive) would change the past. Why not try to make the Bajorans’ sacrifices mean something?
I always thought that using the knowledge he gain from the experiments to save lives would make their sacrifice at least have some kind of meaning. If I was blinded in some terrible unethical experiment I would actually feel better knowing that what was learned helped someone else keep their sight..
And that's a valid POV. I would probably be the same. But not everyone would be and I hate how he dismisses the other side like nothing.
exactly
It bugged me as I watched the episode, and I usually like voyager
@@KnightRaymund Problem here: It wasnt a sacrifice. They were killed, that is something else then a sacrifice. I see it the same way as you, i would be a hyppocryte if i wouldnt, but i think this has to be addressed.
DS9 Duet did it better.
It was a good episode, agreed.
it's also not the same situation. At all. Nobody was coming to the defense of the actual butcher of Galitep. This hologram is not a real person but is based on the data collected by a Nazi who tortured Bajorans.
It ran into a repeated issue the series itself had throughout it's run that it struggled with and sometimes fumbled on was "ethics and treatment of holographic life". Haven't looked at your full playlist but yeah that issue alone could make it's own video with how it was addressed and sometimes misaddressed in the series. Your conclusion toward the end does lampshade the big issue with the episodes ethical quandary in that it wasn't the best written or it had constraints forced on it that kept it from doing what Duet did and addressing it head on instead opting for the safer he "might" have done these things but we don't know...which yeah as trigger warning at beginning indicates is a good way to set off a ton of people since the argument for holocaust deniers is "we don't know" or "we didn't see it", it does make me curious about the modern medical curriculum when pursuing a degree in medicine and how it addresses these ethical questions.
I mean honestly in Star Trek, we see very '''''''good" Cardassians and when we do, they killed off.
And since he was a hologram, they could just altered his image to something more comforting to them.
And you definitely brought up some thoughts I never considered.
One issue with your idea was that during that episode, the amount of knowledge from the Cardassian's writings was to large to maintain in the ship's database. So it would be wasteful to add the ethics program into something that was going to be removed immediately after the surgery.
You can't really hit Tabor for racism here--not in this instance. When the hologram comes live, he says "My God, that's Crell Moset." It's the individual that bothers him. And yes, I agree that a small child is an unreliable witness in such a situation.
There's also a snag I hit when I try to suspend disbelief, and it's that the dilemma is so unnecessary, even ridiculous. The computer has the medical data in its memory, why doesn't the Doc just access it and read it and come up with a cure that way? Is simulating an AI really the most efficient way to process info? And does it have to be a simulation of the person who did the research? Couldn't he customize an avatar? Or, since he's a holographic AI himself, couldn't he just download the data into his own program? In fact, why would there be any medical data in _Voyager's_ computers that he hadn't already downloaded years ago?
And I know that Geordi did this before with Leah Brahms (which reminds me: Isn't it unethical to create a simulation of a living person without their consent?) and it was just as silly then, but they didn't use it as the basis of such a contentious dilemma.
I agree with all your points, and would add that some doctors also pursue knowledge in secret, so how much of the Federation medicine is actually based on ethical research and experimentation? I would think there isn't just one single doctor that did unethical research, and yet that information is included in Federation databases? As for using holograms of living people, yeah, that's an invasion of their privacy.
They could have easily fixed this problem in the beta if they changed his appearance to a federation race, just to make b'lanna feel better.
Yea, I thought of that and should have mentioned it..
They could have avoided it entirely by just copying the data directly into the Doctor's program. That had to be a quicker and easier solution than creating a new holographic exobiology expert from scratch. Even though they made it look totally simple despite the fact when Harry attempted to recreate the Doctor he failed miserably. The only reason he was created as he was was to create a story, if anyone had acted intelligently at any point the episode would have been over in ten minutes.
I mean, they could hide it. That doesn't take away the underlying issue, just makes it so people aren't aware there's an issue.
It actually takes away part of the issue. Can you use Data obtained by experiments of a Nazi doctor to cure a Jew who lost his parents in the Shoah? Probably. - But it would be definitly false to hurt his feelings needlesly afterwards by telling him "btw. we used a Nazi method to cure you".
The weirdest part of this is that we already had to make a decision on this as a society and decided basically what you said. We use Nazi research. Most of what we know about hypothermia was determined during brutal Nazi tests.
The problem with saying that Crell Moset is a direct allusion to Mengele is that Crell's behavior in the episode would have been Mengele on a GOOD day. Mengele's experiments were largely void of any scientific reasoning and basis, and were often for his sense of medical "curiosity." There is a pretty telling moment during the actual operation when holo-Crell recommends killing the alien attached to B'Elanna to at least save B'Elanna's life, while the EMH actually finds a way to save both of them. Holo-Crell then immediately starts expanding on this idea, and it's thanks to his abilities that they save both. Mengele never would have done that, at least from the information we currently possess about him. Mengele was the Auschwitz "Angel of Death," killing numerous people through his experiments as though they were pieces on an assembly line, while Crell, assuming that the hologram is an accurate representation of the man, leaped at the opportunity to save both creatures as soon as the situation presented itself.
There are a few other things to note:
1. Using medical information gained by unethical means is something that has happened for hundreds of years. If we are to use the Nazi-era scientists as an example, their experiments in gas poisoning and ESPECIALLY hypothermia recovery is information that might have waited decades to be discovered otherwise. That's information we still actively use. Even if we step away from Nazis, we can look at Jonas Salk, who injected insane asylum patients with a flu vaccine that was in the experimental phase, presumably with less-than-ethical consent. Does that therefore invalidate the information we gained from it? Does it invalidate the polio vaccine that he also developed, if it were found that it too was done so unethically in trials despite changing the lives of thousands for the better?
2. The framing of the issue becomes a lot more difficult because of the setting. In the 24th century, it is entirely possible that simulations of vaccines, diseases, and cures can be performed with highly-calculated accuracy. Here in the 21st century however, such a thing isn't nearly as plausible. The reason why we perform on "less-sentient" animals is to avoid the potential ramifications of human cost. "Nothing Human" actually points out that it's convenient to draw a line between people and animal, which is a high point in the discussion. Nevertheless, the TNG episode "Ethics" is stronger because it deals with 24th century medical ethics in a 24th century setting. The connection between time and practice is more coherent in that episode.
3. As for the metaphysical question about how the people who died would feel about their deaths being used to cure others later in the future? I'm sorry, but if we're going to pretend that we all actively seek to better the lives of humanity, especially in the 24th century, this is a non-issue made into an issue. IF those people were alive, their potential emotions would be a legitimate complication. But since they aren't, it's a waste of time and energy. Assuming that heaven exists, where everyone there is at peace and content, I really don't think they would care. Life is meant to be lived, not prematurely ended, especially if you have the medical knowledge to save life and choose not to. Besides, if we're all supposed to go to heaven when we die, what's the harm in putting off the trip for a while?
4. Seven of Nine has the knowledge of millions of species that was obtained unethically through non-consented assimilation.
If you want to see similar ideas tackled with more intelligence in the Trek universe, TNG's "Ethics" like I previously mentioned, and DS9's "Duet" for dealing with a LIVING, presumed murderer for seeming sadistic pleasure, are what I would recommend.
How to fix the Cardassian doctor if they're that concerned: Install the Doctor's ethics into him. Problem solved.
the hologram is not accurate if you change his personality. As he is from an archive his personality is intact.
@@SantomPh Did they need his personality intact though? Seems they only needed the expertise.
@@SantomPh It's not accurate anyway. It's only a crude approximation of the man based on limited knowledge about him.
I actually agree with them deleting the hologram, but I strongly disagree with them deleting his research on Xenobiology. The logic that keeping it would validate his methods is, I think, stupid and shows a complete misunderstanding of history. There are so many things we have today that were built, brick by brick on fields filled with corpses. The ghosts of the past haunt every single advancement made, politically, scientifically, philosophically, everything. I mean, just ponder how important say, the Roman Empire was to the current state of the world and ask just how many corpses are probably buried in it's foundation. Not to mention how many are almost assuredly in the foundation of the 'United Earth', the precursor to the idealistic Starfleet.
You don't just ERASE that stuff. You don't pretend it never happened, you don't purge the name from the tablet. The moral obligation of everyone who benefits from the suffering of those who came before is to understand how and why they suffered and making sure that we do not repeat those mistakes and do better in the future. By Tuvocs logic, there are mountains of our history that would have to be ejected into the sun, because to do otherwise would be to endorse it's evil and that is nonsense.
Maybe but this episode was intended to essentialy replicate a discussion that at this point is a good 60-70 years old. during the 30s and 40s Nazi scientists engaged in research on Concentration camp victems etc. and there's been a long debate on weather or not we should use that research or not.
But it's Voyager, you must erase bad guys and make sure no one knows why they are bad. Regardless of the reality that that just allows the badguys to be repeated again and again, because no one knows what makes them evil.
I mean no one knows what the fucking Nazis did, no one knows how they ran Germany. "No one" or rather the knowledge and records exist but we ignore it to blame others of being Nazis while ignoring governments actual practices that mirror the Nazis and praising it while still screeching hatred of all things Germanic.
The problem with keeping parts of hologram programs around even in what would seem like reasonably 'safe' conditions is pretty well explored in all the TNG era Trek series, Moriarty waking up in 'Ship in a Bottle' all the way to everything that happened to/with the Doctor. Federation holograms that tread the line of sapience either through design, like Moriarty, or circumstance like the Doctor's program needing to be active 24/7 fall into a sort of 'Schroedinger's Sapience' where basically all their code and files are at once 'just code' as well as being 'alive.'
And since Voyager takes place well after Moriarty, wiping everything about the program including the 'results' might be necessary to keep any part of that code from lurking in the ship's computers and potentially becoming 'alive' again like the 'Latent Image' code that they tried to scrub from the Doctor's program.
The senario depicted here is poisioned before we even start. Trek has used the Cardassians as the bad guys in just about everything they do, they shove this down our throats with ruthless force. We are told time and again how nasty the Cardassians are to their prisoners. To thir slaves, whom they work to death, what conditions ar elike in the internmant camps and the like, we are also told how they like to abuse the female prisoners. We've even seen this with some of these women having unwanted children. We've seen those children too.
I could go on. The casual hatred the Bajorans have fo the Cardassians is not something that came up overnight, it takes some serious events to take place and they are even mentioned too. Plague outbreaks, massacres and all sorts of other nasty crap that happens because my world is being occupied.
In general, they are presented "as the bad guys"... but the species (well, individual characters) are not so one-dimensional. Remember the scientist who thought she and O'Brian were beginning some courtship ritual. There's Garak and Dukat are both extremely complex (and extremely different) characters. Damar grew/changed in ways I didn't expect. That guy from the DS9 episode "Duet"... The Cardassians of TNG/VOY/DS9 are not like, for example, the Klingons of TOS.
There was also Gul Evek, who lost 2 of his 3 sons in the last war with the Federation (Family is important to Cardassians), and he rather went against cardassian doctrine and laid down his arms rather than starting another war and losing his third son by insisting on something as benign as a small survey.
Then there was the dissident movement on Cardassia, involving even high ranking military officers trying to undermine the Stasi-like Obsidian Orders hold over the Population and Government.
Cardassians often arent bad people, they definitely rarely are bad to each other, but they live in a system that desensitizes them to the value of life in other species compared to their own, to be patriotic, for Cardassia. If it takes the death of a Bajoran to save the life of a Cardassian, then its a worthwhile trade. Hell, even if it makes the Cardassians life a bit easier and more pleasant its still worth it.
And very few people think independently enough to break this kind of indoctrination, like Garak, because its hard to think differently if all around you see your kin treating Bajorans like sub-human (sub-cardassian?), and you have no way to not do it yourself too, not because you want to be cruel but because youre just stuck in this way of life where you benefit from that misery you cause.
But what I have only rarely seen was Cardassians being cruel for its own sake. They typically dont harm if there is nothing to gain from them, they arent sadists, they are merely exploitative. No atrocity they commited was without motive or advantage to them. They werent mad or insane, there was method to what they did. And thats what always made the Cardassians threedimensional villains, because if it was to their advantage they could also be your best ally and the biggest humanitarian. Those things just never were to their perceived advantage.
*anon1152* Damar became an almost heroic figure in the latter half of season 7. DS9 had some of the best storylines, scripts & acting talent in the whole of Star Trek
Keep in mind that the Cardassians where proably used BECAUSE we knew how bad they where. it was obvious to me the episode was designed to stand in for commentary on Nazi biological research on Holocaust victiems during the 30s and 40s, which is even today something of a medical ethics debate
The argument by Gul Darheel (Or at least the man pretending to be Gul Darheel) I think should be examined at least a little as to explain why the Cardassians are the 'bad guys'. "We were fighting for our lives too, we had an Empire to maintain!"
While certainly a self serving motive, look at how easily Cardassia crumbled under the weight of the Klingon Empire, imagine the millions, if not billions of Cardassians who were killed in the Cadassian-Klingon war, and we see that the ruthlessness of Cardassia is thanks to the fact they are a minor power trying to take on many of the major powers of the galaxy. The Federation doesn't have to worry because it is already a massive paradise (a very well armed Utopia), and while the Federation may not be a threat, the Klingons, and even the Romulans or Breen are.
While it certainly doesn't justify their actions, I think it does go a little ways toward explaining it.
As an aside, the Imperial Japanese also did extensive medical experimentation on Chinese POWs during WWII, on a much larger scale than the Germans. Supposedly the scientists used their findings to get more lenient treatment after the war. Edit: it was called unit 731 and they were actually granted amnesty for trading their research civilians were also used in the experiments.
Information in and of it's self is not evil or good it is just objective information and how said information was gained does not color it in a good for evil light. If the information is useful and can lead to good being down would that not be a better form of justice than to shun knowledge for some vapid virtual signaling? An evil act can give rise to good just as a good intention can give way to great evil so it always pays to really think and consider rather than go with a knee jerk emotional response to anything.
As a history buff, and former Navy Hospital Corpsman, I WAS going to chastise you and point you to Dr. Josef Mengele and Auschwitz, however, at the end you addressed this and make a valid point, and also demonstrated that you actually did do the historical research. (You'd be surprised how many folks your age are ignorant about the Holocaust, even to the point that they deny it ever happened.) Also, it's not like American doctors never did this sort of thing. (Look up the "Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment.")
As you stated, we are talking about a holographic simulation, not the man himself. Also, he actually did produce a positive medical result. (even if his methods were unethical and most likely classified as "war crimes") Also. it is an extraordinary circumstance. (you know, it's not like they can call up Starfleet Medical or the Daystrom Institute and get a specialist)
Do I approve of this Cardassian doctor and his experiments? No, I do not. This is one of those cases where the ends do not justify the means. If I were in the type of extreme situation they were in, and my doctor (ironically also a hologram) and this the only thing that could save my life is utilizing the RESULTS of this "research," but not the methodology, I most likely. allow it. (Since B'Lanna was unable to maker that decision herself, it would fall to someone acting as a medical proxy)
What I don't understand (and I will have to re-watch the episode to see this) is The Doctor's data base contains all the medical knowledge from Hippocrates until the 24th Century, as well as the work of probably hundreds or even thousands of xenophysicians, why create the hologram? Can't he access the raw data without creating a hologram? if the computer has enough on file to create a Hologram of this Cardassian doctor, then they have enough for the Doctor to do his job without a "Holographic consultation."
There is one other thing you do not mention. The Doctor has an ethical subroutine, and he, although only a hologram, is bound by the Hippocratic Oath, and would only resort to this methodology if it was the ONLY way he could save his patient.
Ends don't justify the means. In relation to the use of any procedures Mengele's caseused, what means? The dead don't care & medicine primarily concerns itself with the living. If we can use a technique devised by Mengele to stop a child today from suffering, who are we to refuse to utilise such a technique, just because it doesn't sit well with our sensibilities? Like I said, the dead don't care.
It does seem like there shouldn't have been a need to make the hologram. However, I might be willing to accept it as a plot device if everything that came after resulted in a logical and meaningful ethical discussion. I do want to point out that while the hologram isn't the man himself, it was made to think and behave as close to the original as possible. If the original was indeed capable of conducting the unethical experiments he was suspected to, then it's possible his holographic facsimile was capable of similar acts. Therefore, it seemed like a good choice to delete it, although they could've instead added some ethical subroutines to him.
The thing I like about this channel is that it gives a different way of looking at things. Now as far as Dr. Mengele, he actually died in South America and escaped justice. There were many witnesses to his crimes so it wasn't like there was any doubt as to if he did it. By the way, I was in the United States Army during Operation Desert Storm (Gulf War for the civilians out there) and they gave us some white pills to take that was supposed to help with the effects of the nerve gas agent. Two weeks in, my commander said "I'm not taking any more of these pills and you don't have to either". I never developed the Gulf War illness and I mention the pills from time to time but to no effect. It seems that it doesn't matter. So that may have been experimentation on us but I have no proof. Something worth thinking about. As stated in the video, little is given about this Cardassian except of rumors of what he did. There would have been a lot more info on him if he had done such things though it was during the occupation, and concerning Germany, they (the Germans) kept very good records. So truthfully, we do not know whether he did anything or not as we have little to go on. Also, if you take the Cardassian Garak, you see a more complex character that only Dr. Bashir gets to see as he was his only friend there. No one is all good or all evil, though Mengele came as close to the evil part as he could. Garak in his pain even yelled at Dr. Bashir saying along the lines of maybe he was getting exactly what he deserved. I am rambling but I will say one more thing. This happened today as my friend and I were leaving a restaurant. He was commenting on her attitude and I didn't notice anything but I pointed out that "I am not inside her mind so I can't say what she was thinking". Now, she didn't say anything, but you can make up a lot of stories about what you believe someone else is thinking. Food for thought.
I agree that it would have been a better story if they gave us a definitive answer on whether or not if this guy did those atrocities or not. We do know that the Cardassians did horrific things to the Bajorians during the Occupation, but in dealing with War Crimes we need to know more details.
Also, trying to remember if Nothing Human take place before or after Paris and Torres got married. Because if they were married then by modern legal standards Paris would have Power of Attorney and can consent for medical procedures for Torres if she is unable to consent
"sin-op-sis" not "sin-nope-sis."
When they decide to make an alliance with the Kazon in the episode "Alliances", B'Elanna has no issue contacting Seska, a real (non-holographic) Cardassian that had betrayed them
This was before she knew the Cardassians killed all her friends in the Marquis after the Dominion-Cardassia-Alliance.
The Cardassian doctor in the episode is a stand-in for Dr. Josef Mengele. That's why the Bajoran officer's story isn't questioned: the "is he guilty" question was decided at Nuremberg, the question the crew are discussing is "can we use his research".
@Amber Hoke It's more of a question of morality than a question of legality. For example, is it moral to use research that was gained by harvesting the hearts of healthy infants that were simply born the "wrong" race, as happened in the Yemenite children affair? (And yes, this literally happened to probably thousands of babies.) Are the people who did the research morally culpable if they didn't know that the children were killed as part of a coordinated, state-mandated ethnic cleansing? What kind of compensation is just for kidnapping and murdering someone's newborn baby--if any kind of compensation could be called a form of justice? What should the consequences be for the people responsible for the ethnic cleansing? These are important questions that we must think about despite them being uncomfortable and painful, but there are no simple answers. In the end what we as a society decide says something about who we are as people just as much as the human propensity for genocide over arbitrary differences says something about who we are. We must shine light on humanity's darkest excesses if we have any hope of changing. Our natural impulse is to want to look away, to want to believe that we're better, to want to believe that we would do things differently, but if it came down to it--would you still want your life or your family member's life to be saved if you knew the treatment came from the harvested organs of an innocent baby? Does the willingness of the researchers to obtain infant hearts while not knowing where they came from, the willingness to spend money on those "resources", money that in the end funded and justified genocide, make those researchers culpable? Does using the research make you culpable? Does saving lives balance the scale of senseless deaths or does it simply spread the blood to more peoples' hands? I don't know the answers but I do think we all need to ask the questions, and Star Trek at its best is very good at asking those kind of questions.
I mean go down the same line about using borg tech and the same people will rationalize using it for good.
10:45 I know i'm about half a year late here but it wasn't the Nazi experiments that were a real parallel here. Those experiments were flawed and focused on the Nazi's belief in racial superiority which was a flawed premise to begin with and therefore yielded little results.
What DID yield significant results is WW2 ERA Japanese human experimentation on Chinese people. Doctor Shirō Ishii lead his Unit 731 and did extensive research on infectious disease by deliberately infecting people and then doing painful invasive experiments on victims, including LIVE autopsies, and surgeries on AWAKE victims with no pain suppressant. They released diseases on unsuspecting villages then go in a document the spread, and get subjects for experiments and bring them back to the lab.
After the war you'd expect him to be prosecuted as a war criminal but was instead given full immunity by the United States in exchange for his research which has been used extensively in the years since, since it is research that could not ethically be obtained any other way.
In Seven of Nine's defense, I think she meant that his actions was tolerated in the eyes of the Cardassian Union.
Isn't Seven of Nine speaking about the person, not the hologram? Can't remember.
my favorite of all your vids
So under Tuvok's logic does that mean the various rocket missions the US did, the most famous of which being the Apollo Moon Missions, just legitimizes Nazi Germany attacking the UK and Belgium with V-2 Rockets?
I stop watching your videos for a few months, and Lore becomes all edgy.
I frakking love it.
#newlore
Great video best one you've done in a while
Doctor orders large quantities of disease, days later that same disease breaks out in the locality of his hospital where that disease had never previously been seen.... and you're shocked they drew the conclusion they did?
I'd forgotten how terribly this episode was written. You inspired me to rewatch TNG's Drumhead as a better discussion of xenophobia and DS9's Duet - Harris Yulin's portrayl of Marritza/Gul Darhe'el is chilling!
Also, I'm having some trouble finding your guild on STO. I've recently started playing again and would love a guild to hang out in.
Close, but in this context you don't call it a 'trigger warning' because that would be ableist, you call it a 'content warning.'
What I like about this channel is that lore keeps it real
Check out Leah Brahms for the difference between a holographic simulation and a real person, and that was someone the computer had enormous information about. Yet when Geordi met the actual woman, he found the simulation didn't quite get her right.
We in the West use medical research that was done in the holacorst
Excellent video! You play the reality of "reality"excellently. You make the following point clear:
There are three sides to history:
1. Their side
2. Our side
3. The truth
Waiting hungry for more.
It's more the Tuskegee medical research into STDs. Years of experminting, zero results.
Am I a bad person for laughing when they called Cardassians spoon heads?
Could Janeway force Torres to have the treatment? YES! We learned in a TNG episode that an officer will sometimes have to order a subordinate to so something that will directly result in them dying if it will save the ship. It is only logical that taking extraordinary measures to save someone is also allowed in the same instances.
The hologram was called ''Medical Consultant Program'' ... they should have never allowed him to assume the identity of a real person. They could have given him a random appearance and tweaked his subroutines to make him a unique personality. Problem solved.
This episode always bothered me. We never get proof that he really is the cardassian "Josef Mengele".
The drumhead. Great episode. But Picard’s speech hardly applies to Krell. Yes, you shouldn’t be punished for the sins of your ancestors (or in the case of The Drumhead, you shouldn’t be punished because one of your grandparents belongs to a race that is a current enemy). But Krell isn’t exactly a descendant of an oppressive race. He isn’t even the specific descendant of a specific war criminal. He is a holographic version of a very specific war criminal.
When you say that “the hologram Krell could not impact the actions of the real Krell he had no ability to stop hi or aid him just like you [7 of 9] couldn’t help your actions wit the Borg… but…we assume the hologram Krell is the bad guy…”
Well. Yes. We assume he is the bad guy. Not because the hologram Krell helped the real Krell or could have stopped but didn’t stop the real Krell but because hologram Krell is, in some sense, Krell IS the same guy.
And towards the end of the episode it is clear that hologram Krell has little regard for the individual rights of people who aren’t part of his group (whatever group that might be). He was willing to make the alien suffer and die to his mission, even though the same goal could be (and was) accomplished in a non-lethal way. Towards the end of the episode Krell seems more and more like the guy that Tabor and the other Maquis remember.
But wait. Is Krell “a guy” at all?
Is Krell a person?
Is The Doctor a person?
I love the analysis. But I feel you are reading deeply into a script that in honesty is so shallow... (This was supposed to be a very shallow Mengela reference)...
Just to follow up: this parallels skin grafting technology gleaned from Nazi unethical experiments that were not used for years due to ethics violations in the process of obtaining that tech... (and to a lesser extent rocket tech from Von Braun).
As cold hearted as this may sound I think any info, even if it was gathered through unethical experimentation should be used otherwise they died for nothing at all, let the medical research be used for good to honor the suffering they went through to get it by helping others. What I think anyhow.
Tabor is wrong. It was never outright stated that he saw these crimes being committed. The Cardassian military rules with an Iron fist and the Bajorans hatred of Cardassians is something that will need several generations to cool. But hey. For all, you haters out there didn't the Cardassians get their comeuppance with the destruction at the end of the Dominion war and the near genocide of the Cardassian species at the hands of the Dominion?.
Crell Moset maybe based on an actual person. Who knows, its also never really stated.
B'Elanna Torres is also wrong, she hates Cardassians as she fought them in battle and in war, both sides often do things they really shouldn't be doing.
Things have a way of happening in war.
Jeri Taylor, the episode's writer, is quoted by Memory Alpha saying this: "We talked about Mengele […] and that was sort of a model, there. Now, he had no compunctions […] [but] we wanted to provide a grayer area of someone who, in his mind, was very justified in doing this, because the greater good would outweigh the cost to the people that he was experimenting on."
They don't state it in the episode, but it wouldn't make sense to do that. So looking at external sources (in this case the season 5 DVD commentary) it is inarguable that Moset was based on a real person.
Both sides might do bad things in war, but that doesn't make both sides equal or their bad things equivalent. In DS9, there is a conversation between O'Brien and Garak that shows that the Federation believes there are rules in war (leading to the concept of war crimes) but the Cardassians do not limit themselves in the same way.
This is not about revenge or racism against the Cardassian Union or all Cardassians; or at least, that's not the primary focus. This is about the actions of one Cardassian and whether to accept the help of a simulation of him is to condone his actions. Going back to Mengele, the Nazi doctor; I have no qualms about taking advantage of the knowledge of many other WW2 Germans, as the Americans and Soviets did once the war was over, but I would seriously question the ethics of taking advantage of any knowledge Mengele and some other Germans might have developed by crueller means.
"Things have a way of happening in war."
You act like the Bajorans were asking for it. Cardassia invaded them. Tortured, enslaved, murdered them.
Thats not what I said. Did you miss it?. Go back and re-read it.
when they left DS9 the Cardassians had not even joined the Dominion. As far as they know the Cardassians have not ascended into madness, but were still the resentful former occupiers of Bajor and thus had "bad guy" flag waving over their heads. Had Voyager's crew returned just after the final battle on Cardassia Prime, their opinions would be very different.
Great episode to review. This is one of my favorite episodes of Voyager.
Uhh...I don't think the crewmembers on Voyager are being racist. Bigoted, yes...but that has everything to do with the previous war that had taken place between Cardassian Union and the Federation, the Maquis resistance in the Demilitarized Zone, and just generally bad past interactions with Cardassians in general.
Furthermore, Cardassians were generally not well-liked in the Alpha Quadrant, including the Romulans, the Klingons, and the Federation. To compare it to real-world scenarios, that would be like trying to remain civil to a German only a few years after World War 2. It's going to be pretty difficult, because for the longest time in your mind, they were "the enemy."
Funny how you never heard what happened to all those surviving German soldiers that were POW? Whatever happened to them, I wonder? The history books just ended at the end of the war with the fall of Berlin and doesn't elaborate any further than the war crime trials? Not that I would believe anything in the official record, because a certain rocket scientist got a golden ticket punched to America, when he was as equally to blame for the Nazi war machine as anyone else in the slaughter of civilians; something that only became common knowledge much later on.
Your point? I was referencing WWII as an example of why the Federation wouldn't exactly be buddy-buddy with the Cardassians so soon after a war, because the US wouldn't exactly be buddy-buddy with Germany after WWII.
Your blind dismissal of anything in official record tells me you're someone who THINKS they're smart, but is actually still really dumb. Just because one rocket scientist got a free pass despite committing war crimes does not mean that everyone got a free pass. Some did, some didn't. Don't cherry-pick your facts and then proceed to paint everything else with a broad brush; reality does NOT work like that. It is infinitely more complex.
Besides, the US committed war crimes during WWII as well. You're preaching to a well-versed choir at this point, so I'd quit while you're behind.
Off topic but wasnt a babylon 5 series review going to start based on a poll we did quite awhile back? Been looking forward to that
Tuesday and then till the end of the year..every tuesday
Lore Reloaded beautiful looking forward to it. Going to keep up with the episodes with the channel!
Lore Reloaded Cool. I just recently did a rewatch of t shadow war episodes.
I think its not referring to nazi's but to japanese experiments 🤔🤔
hey white privilege takes precedence
This was a nice change from your conventional "lore" and good to hear your thoughts on the subject (or at least as far as VOY haphazardly presented it).
Looking forward to the Vidiian series!
I'm trying some new stuff
Actually it makes sense. The Federation had fought a border war, with the cardies..
They knew about the Dominion war at this time as well, i believe.
Yes, so that is more so, why believe a cardie... once Betazed burnt..
How about the tng episode where obrian says he does not hate the cardassians but what the cardassians made him... cardassians were called spoon heads and such by federation soldiers.
He was obviously a bit racist in that and got knocked down to size
I was just surprised they didn't go all the way and call him something like 'Crengele'.
He was only a frakking hologram!!! (No offense Doc!)
Grey reptile man version of mengele
To tell the truth I agree, as the testimony it’s unuttendable
Japan did a lot of medical experiment/torture. It was called unit 731. The US government gave amnesty for the records those responsible. This episode was interesting and give a I interesting thought. Do we use what can help us medically and psychologically, if it caused intense pain and suffering to any form of life?
Yes, end of story, The act is evil, however knowledge is knowledge and it does not matter where it came from. The people who did those medical/torture experiments should be executed after a fair trial.
This topic is complicated and I think you made your case. I agree with you.
I agree with most of your arguments particularly the fact that Janeway's take on whether to use the research was correct but I disagree that the actual Krell might not have done what he was accused of. Purely based on the amount of virus he ordered leans more towards he was using it just as they thought he had. The fact that the amount of people infected kept going up makes me think he wasn't doing what he claimed he was.
I remember watching this episode as a child and feeling sorry for the hologram. I already knew what the Cardasians had done and understood the moral dilemma but "Crell" did not deserve to be erased. He did nothing immoral in the episode, he is not even a true Cardasian. His only crime is to look like the real Crell. And yes, I consider him sentient, he was able to make his own decisions and arguments as the Doctor.
As other comments say, there would have been no problem if the Doctor had changed the appearance of the hologram to another species before activating it.
It's a shame because I really like episodes where they encounter a non-humanoid species. This is likely to be the case if we find extraterrestrial life.
Also, I wonder how it will be for B'Elanna and the others to return to the Alpha quadrant, with the rest of the Maquis already dead or arrested and the real Cardasians had received a great taste of irony, to the point that now they would need the help of the Federation
You don't always learn what you need to know from the places you want to those lessons, or in the way you want to learn them, or from the people you want to learn them from. That doesn't mean those lessons should be ignored or that you approve of how they were learnt (e.g. I don't approve of how many people died or seriously injured themselves trying to invent a flying machine, but I accept the lessons on what they did wrong and what to avoid), just make sure you learn the right things from those lessons.
In the titen books it mentions that the fleet is prity segregated (life support requirements are given for that) mabey the federation is raseist
If this happend today they would have demanded that the holodeck be removed to protect their feelings
By the way: "The need of the many outweighs the need of the few". It's engraved in Star Trek DNA. We may criticize Janeway's choice. But she actually made text book Federation "enlightened" moral choice.
Wow, amazing video. Agree 100%. I would also point out that ALL MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE, in truth all knowledge in general stems from questionable sources if you go back far enough. If knowledge is tainted the second a questionable experiment were done, we'd still be tying pointy rocks to sticks.
the cardassian doctor is a butcher, if you're a bajorian you'd understand
You made great points. Fantastic job.
I try
This was a great breakdown.
This episode reeks of the sanctimonious nature of many characters within the franchise. Much of our medical knowledge comes from methodologies that were and in some cases still are illegal. I imagine the illegal experiments performed by the Kardashians would yield more results than those of 1930s to 1940s era scientists because the Cardassians are a Tech tier 2 civilization. It's still wrong but it would have yielded far more medical results than anything in our history due to their Superior knowledge of genetics and interior medicine. It also doesn't really make much of a difference. They deleted a hologram. So what?! The knowledge is still going to be in the information archive of Starfleet Medical so they really didn't change anything.
Also, grave robbing was also instrumental in advancing science by providing cadavers to medical schools when there wasn't enough bodies gifted to science to go around. So yeah, ethical wise, the medicine field can't take the higher moral ground, either. ;)
@@sigmacademy Grave robbing was a hangable offense in the days of the old British Empire.
A Cardassian who worked on Bajorans.
Now, it's not etched in stone, but many people have equated the situation between the two planets to the German/Hebrew Genocide. Would this episode have been as contentious had it been a Romulan with a Betazoid or a Bolian (for example)
Well, when an entire world has been subject to what we would call atrocities by a regime of a specific species--the Cardassians--whose culture enshrines the idea of ruthless devotion to the state, one can be forgiven for having a visceral reaction. Having said that, TREK does all too often play the racism card in a totally disturbing way. Having entire races considered genetically loyal or greedy or something like that is just plain wrong be it the Jem'hadar or the Ferengi. Consider the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor lasted something like five times longer than the Holocaust, though, little wonder people felt that way.
I generally agree with you about the arguments made. But this also demonstrates why VOY is my second least favorite TREK, the sloppiness of such ideas--not like sloppy the way real life is, but fundamental inconsistencies. I totally understand Tom's reaction as well--I've lost the woman I loved and what I would have done to save her is quite a lot, damn the consequences. But Janeway made the right choice.
I do think a better way to approach this would be to consider the tainted nature of all knowledge, all achievement. After all, the Federation was born ultimately out of mass destruction. Vulcans only became peaceful and wise after a history that makes Humanity at its worst look tame. How would any of us deal with the terrible trap in which the Vidians found themselves (the ones with the Phage)?
8:25 pretty much my thoughts for this episode. Also, they have a limited amount of crewmen and can't go to a star fleet station to dock and pick up more and replace lost ones since they are on THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY 75 YEARS FROM THE CLOSEST OUTPOST! Losing any crewmen would be a big loss since they wouldn't be able to replace them, especially higher ranked specialist like the Chief Engineer. I'm reminded of how they lost the real doctor in the first episode. If they didn't have the EMH they would have been super screwed and probably dead. In their situation, you can't afford and losses.
"free speech is freedom because it is freedom of expression when you are free to express yourself this is when you know your are free"
I seriously have referenced this episode not even knowing what series it was from. Why would you refuse to save someone's life regardless of whether the knowledge in how to for instance set a broken leg was learned by someone breaking a leg....
3:58 I agree with you what your parents tell you infinitude greatly throughout your life
a lot more than we like to admit..
while my parents were constantly negative towards me I just ignored them, and did my own thing it motivated me to be myself and not care what others thinks think of me
Interesting Video, I look forward to Vidian Week
It's a computer hologram. Not the actual Cardassian who did the experiments. And the data behind the hologram? Clearly Starfleet command felt the information was important enough to program it into the computer. The decision was made long ago. It's a non-issue. (The Admiral who made that ethical decision was probably far above Janeway's pay-grade.) The **reality** of situation is that you either save B'lanna (who is vital to running the ship), or you don't.
The Terok Nor trilogy of novels goes into details on the Occupation of Bajor. No spoilers but the third book has some in-depth chapters on Krell Mossett Though this would be considered beta cannon though
No mention of Unit 731?
Nope..They didn't resemble it to unit 731 - but i should have brought it up.
STAR TREK : DS9
seasons 1 to 7
the CARDASSIANS
including
GUL DUKAT
stated that
CARDASSIANS that committed
WAR CRIMES during the
OCCUPATION
were prosecuted and even
executed
GUL DUKAT :
" I DIDN'T KNOW THE DAY
TO DAY INTRICACIES OF
THE OCCUPATION
YES , I CONCEDE WAR CRIMES
WERE COMMITTED BY
CARDASSIANS OPERATING
UNDER THE ORDERS OF THE
CENTRAL COMMAND AND
I MYSELF COULDN'T STOP
THEM OR INTERFERE "
so basically the
CHAIN OF COMMAND
is absolute
I just began loving you a bit more, dude :) I too love to play devil's advocate to look at all aspects of a case.
I found an interesting article that explored the Cardassian occupation and that the amount of Bajorian causalities were shockingly low over a 50 year period. The Cardassians first and foremost goal was resource exploitation instead of genocide. There were only a couple areas with harsh working conditions with high fatalities but Cardassians weren't interested in killing Bajorans.
*EDIT:* I found the website so here's the link: www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/6fcdqz/statistically_the_cardassian_occupation_of_bajor/
doctor/ krell? I only agree with insane... i mean janeway
I would have thought Tuvok would have quoted Spok "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." They could never afford to loose her skills as chief engineer, as such there personal views of the hologram and the research should be put aside for the good of the ship.
Yea..never even thought of that
Under normal circumstances B'Elanna would have the "right to die", or at least the right to refuse the treatment she finds personally offensive to her even if it meant the risk of serious injury or death. She is a grown adult with the capacity for reasoned thought. However, her circumstances are not normal. She is, as you say, the chief engineer of a star ship trapped on the wrong side of the galaxy, allowing her to choose death would mean depriving the ship of one of it's senior staff and and expert engineer. The nearest starbase from which a replacement can be acquired is tens of thousands of light years away.
To an certain extent I agree with Dr Krell and a certain degree with the starfleet Dr
And then there's the time they blew up a Borg ship and the doctor gleefully fondled a medical device they salvaged that could do all kinds of cool things and apparently the fact that it was the result of the assimilation of billions of people was no biggie.
Surf Wisely.
Re-upload?
The other one never should have went live
oh, whoops
After i saw first season of voyager, i was so bored that i skipped lots of episodes. I was first reading description of episode to judge if it´s worthy of wasting my time before watching, and this one looked like not.
It would have been based more on the Japanese medical experimentation. And it is interesting that 'evolved' individuals judge a whole species by the actions of a few.
Rule-based morality where what is right or wrong is simply a question of the action is childish (leading to people saying things like "murder is murder, killing in self-defense is wrong"). Actions are just the transfer of intention to consequence.
The correct action to take in a given circumstance is the one that results in the best outcome. So yes, as long as the outcome is better than the alternative the ends will *always* justify the means.
To answer your ending question.
Science is Amoral. without morality. it works best when morality is taken out of the picture...
Knowledge is knowledge. It isn't evil no matter how it was discovered. If the multiplication table was created by raping puppies, would you force everyone to forget it?
Tolerate=use of the holograms knowledge, that is her line of logic. You missed out on the fact that Voyager constantly uses Borg technology as the best way to discredit her argument
Wasn't this happening during the Dominion War? That could be why they weren't fond of Cardies.
Agreed
I agree tovaks argument was flawed. How much of the federation's technological advances occurred through illegal means?
perhaps even Cardassian law would make Crell's actions illegal but what if the issue is law enforcement. You can see this in Russia. they have laws but how they choose to enforce them or not
there was scope in Voyager to question the possible ethics of doing research on holographic people/beings. The Doctor and his development of self-awareness as a being made up of solid light was one of the best sub-plots of the entire series. Now it would make sense to do medical experiments on something that only resembles a living being and can be wiped off in an instant-but is it ethical when it starts crying out in pain?
opportunity missed, to be honest.
You are right about Seven's speech. As for racism there should be mistrust for the Federation citizens because there was war with them not too long ago, and I am not talking about the Dominion War.
Did this get reloaded, no pun intended?
It did
Yes it did, I orginally saw it hours ago but it'd been deleted by the time I clicked.
The original had a ton of issues and I didn't mean to go live with it.
I wanted to make sure I hadn’t imagined watching it this morning (recovering from back surgery and still on meds).
You think that we should question the memories and commitments of people who survived/fought against/overcame a brutal occupation... and give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who, you acknowledge, was part of an "occupation" that was "enslaving" people? That sort of argument would be more legitimate in a court, given by a defence attorney. But in a discussion of the ethics of this case and cases like it... I'm not so sure.
I think the writers succeeded in creating an episode to consider ethical issues this time. This makes us think after the show.
First a question - if they thought the idea that Crell was Cardassian would be a problem, why did they not just change him to an Andorian, or Human, or Trill?
Second, and more importantly, I think the idea of legitimizing his work is irrelevant. Starfleet had already “legitimized” his work by including it in Voyager’s database. If they had felt it was useless info, I doubt they would have programmed it in.
Thirdly, I think the best argument for using Moset’s work would be by using the logic expressed by General Martok. When presented with the option of continuing fighting or not, he voted to continue, knowing that decision would cause more Klingon, Federation and Romulan deaths. Why? He did not want the sacrifice of the fallen warriors to be in vain. In a similar vein, not using the information gained by Moset would only make the deaths of the Bajorans meaningless. At least if the information was used, their deaths would have a greater meaning.
Would that justify continuing with inhumane tests? Of course not. But this episode wasn’t creating a situation where the tests would restart. Nothing Voyager did (without violating the Temporal Prime Directive) would change the past. Why not try to make the Bajorans’ sacrifices mean something?
this reminds me of that part of Mass effect 2 with the Krogan Cure choice.