That would explain a few of the plot holes like the lack of real intelligence that Starfleet is supposed to be great at getting. It would also explain where most of the Maquis weapons and ships came from as Starfleet security can't be that bad. I mean, how hard would it be to steal a tank or helicopter from a military installation today? The Maquis aren't rich so they can't buy the stuff so if someone in the Federation had a few fighters "fall off the transport" during delivery, who would know?
You can buy used apc's, tanks and even old jet fighters (all defanged) on the open market these days so I'd expect something similar in the future. Just replicate the needed parts and get some retired Federation engineer to make beam weapons out of a wad of gum and a paperclips and they'd be ready to go. They wouldn't be top of the line space fighters but it's better than just cussing at the Cardasians and flipping them the bird.
the real joke of the maquis is even the most fledgling colony should be able to produce their own ships at scale. large scale replicator sure be the norm for fed colonies so all they would need id the power which should also be easily to come by
A bunch of Ferengi were able to buy second hand Klingon Birds of Prey, compete with cloaks (Just needed weapons bought on the open market) that were capable of disabling a Galaxy class ship if it wasn't expecting attack. And they would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids.
Except that this ISN'T easy. To either steal OR buy used guys. Your talking hundreds of thousands of dollars AT LEAST for a used tank or military aircraft. Not to mention maintenance costs and being able to house such things. Maquis an others of them in their area don't have facilities even if they had money for large ships. Too bad though they didn't have any strong war like friends though to back what they had and got like Klingons, Andorians, Ferengi, Vulcans, etc who would or be willing to help fight or negotiate for them without which they had no chance once a serious threat like the Dominion showed up and then soon rolled right over them and kept going.
Why does everybody keep saying the Maquis drove the Cardassians to the Dominion? They may have driven them out of the DMZ, but I think the Cardassians turned to the Dominion because of how devastated they were by the Klingon invasion, not the Maquis. I mean sure, it didn't help, but I don't really think the Maquis were the deciding factor.
Take it a step further: What if Ro Lauren was a member of Section 31? She was originally recruited to expose Admiral Kennelly as a Cardassian sympathizer. She became a part of the bridge crew for the Federation flag ship. Is there a better way to keep tabs on everything? She then received advanced tactical training. At that point Section 31 thought it would be best to fully bring her knowledge over to the Marquis. Plausible?
Second that. On the one hand I felt her regret is too genuine for that. More likely to me that she was just set up without knowing. It would have been an interesting twist. But I feel she would act differently if that had been the case. In fact it would make more sense for her to disconnect from the crew of the Enterprise more. Like when O'Neill (Stargate SG-1) started disobeying orders and acting out to infiltrate the rogue group. It would sell it more when they do their check on her.
I like this episode a great deal, VERY WELL DONE‼️ I think the plan you posed, that Section 31 would mastermind, exactly something Section 31 would devise. Especially considering the basic background information known by this point in DS9, and the main timeline.
An interesting what if…Sisko never opened the wormhole so no Dominion, what would have happened? [WARNING ESSAY LENGTH] Either Sisko didn't find the wormhole ect, he didn't go to Bajor, or Locutus took an extra shot at the Saratoga to make sure. The Dominion was an 'out of context' problem, it could not be foreseen and be accounted for in any plans - besides the generic 'have a big tough military', and take advantage of the fact that you have telepathic species that could detect any infiltrators if you only used then extensively for intelligence - Betazoids could not read the minds of changlings, which was a clue that they were changlings, and as for the Vorta… So what would have happened? The Marquis continue to bleed the Cardassians, who respond with more overt and bloodthirsty reprisals against Federation CITIZENS. Bajor goes all in with the Federation and a lot of former Bajorian militia try out for Starfleet. Bajor tries political maneuvering within the Federation to give more support for the colonists. Cardassians would hit non Marquis Federation citizens either by accident, "arranged" accident (fed false Intel by Section 31 or even Marquis) or just out of frustration. And then things get interesting. Bajor can request Starfleet ships be stationed there, and what if a powerful Galaxy class ship, (say the Odyssey?) was put on guard duty. Bajor could get it's defense fleet re equiped by Starfleet as well. So there's a build up of Starfleet near the DMZ and since there are no other threatening powers (except the Romulan cold war, and a future Borg attack) Starfleet can afford to concentrate forces. Note thanks to Wolf 359, Starfleet does have some new ship types, besides the mothballed Defiant, that are more combat orientated, not that it's really needed against Cardassians. So what is the endgame, and is it according to Section 31's plan? Section 31 would like to see Starfleet get tougher, but they are dedicated to protecting the ideals of the Federation as well, it's just that they don't follow them themselves. As Sloan said to Bashir, he does what he does so good people like Julian could contribute to the Federation. They would be against the idea of a military coup like what almost happened in 'Paradise Lost', but a war against a belligerent foe that didn't (yet) have the power to overwhelm the Federation would help stiffen the military. A more muscular Federation, but with the same "benevolent" ideology and less border issues. Also there was the long term risk that Cardassia may one day get their hands on superior weapons technology from a alien race, or just ally themselves with other factions (well they did, the Dominion). A Romulan, Cardassian, Breen alliance would be a threat, even without the knowledge that the Breen had energy dampening weapons, [and in such a war that one Klingon ship might not have made that modification, and how the hell do you run a covert opp against the Breen to steal a ship? So ironically the Dominion may have prevented the Breen from winning any future war against a alpha quadrant power]. So taking out Cardassia makes long term strategic sense, and furthermore it could cement the alliance with the Klingons, invite them to the Federation Cardassian war 2 (This time we roll into Bagdad, oops, Cardassia prime). The Klingons would be thrilled, a good war is good for internal stability, gives their hotheads and agitators something to do, and keeps them fighting fit. Also the clear thinkers would know that fighting side by side with the Federation would help the Empire in the long term as it would ease tensions and make other powers think that if you messed with the Empire, you messed with the Federation. Besides it would make the obvious Romulan plans to split the alliance much more difficult. So the Empire is more stable and has better relations with (and respects as warriors) the Federation. That would be a long term goal of Section 31, ensuring that the Klingon Empire is a stable reliable ally. And besides, humans, being human - after fighting side by side with the Klingons, there would be a bunch of Klingon Human hybrids born soon after. That may have been be the long term strategic plan of Section 31, then the Federation absorbs Cardassia, similar to post WW2 Japan or West Germany. If such a scenario did occur (in another quantum reality) what would be the long term outcome? Voyager would probably return the same, depending on Admiral Janeway's actions in non post Dominion war Federation (The knowledge of the war, sent through the relay, didn't have that much influence) so Starfleet gets a power up courtesy of Voyager. Section 31 still probably had compromised Romulan intelligence, Shinzon never becomes a war hero and gets control of the Scimitar (and maybe it was never developed), Bashir is never approached to join Section 31 because he's never suspected of being a Dominion agent, so Section 31 stays even more hidden. Then the Federation keeps expanding, and eventually meets the Dominion, in maybe a century or two. And by that time Starfleet is much more advanced and much bigger (with a lot of species, some of which may have very useful abilities), while the Dominion is relatively static, so the Dominion would lose any conflict as their comparatively less advanced ships get Instagibbed. Anti founder tech would be much more likely as just the higher tech level, and better understanding of Odo's physiology from medical studies over the years (plus more telepaths). Plus the Dominion wouldn't even have the tech to travel to the alpha quadrant and the Federation would have heard of them as they slowly approached, not turned up in the middle of their territory due to a wormhole. So the Dominion war is just a one sided skirmish, and the history books tell of the Marquis as freedom fighters, to the slight discomfort of Cardassian (and quasi Cardassian) Starfleet personnel.
You just described my conspiracy theory on the subject. Had an idea to write it up, as an end cap for the Starfleet Marine stories I was writing but... I never finished them, out always seemed like there was some tiny bit of lore out there which refuted my plots and thoughts. Which is, ironically, the reason I started watching UA-cam shows like yours, lol... the reason I started watching this was because I couldn't confirm, or deny, this exact theory... well, guess I can stop tumbling down the Section 31 rabbit hole now, lmao.
Indeed. My "in" was the ridiculously low Bajoran deaths due to the occupation, which started me wondering if it was all really a smear campaign against the Cardassians... I know, I know... millions and billions are statistics, hundreds and thousands are personal and easily imagined, but... we're talking about a planetary assault and occupation, statistics has a place in that. Anyways, my thought was to write something up to explain it. Figured Section 31 was doing something like arming and the Afghan people during the Russian invasion and occupation of that real world nation. The plan was to write out three stories, the first at the start of the occupation and beginning of the resistance, the second telling the tale of the Maquis, and the third would cover the aftermath. All of it told from the point of view of a small federation special ops team. This was meant to be an exploration of the dark side of the federation, there were actually six other stories following these soldiers as they progressed from young, hopeful, even idealistic Starfleet marine recruits on through battle after battle until they become hardened and bitter, eventually rebelling against the federation... But, I kept running into a singular problem... too much lore to keep track of, lol... so I started watching Lore Reloaded to fill those gaps in knowledge, but every time I think I'm there... Lore goes and reveals just how little I truly know.
Love your Lore vids man, you bring a lot of information to the table... you ever consider doing a Skyrim Civil War Lore vid?... that is, if you don't mind an endless conflict, or, "Season Unending" in the comment section
If true, another way this plan back fired on the Federation was when so many experienced and well trained Starfleet Officers deserted their posts to join the Maquis. This might also explain one possible source of the Maquis equipment.
Late to the Party on this one, but Preemptive Strike aired 3 weeks after the Maquis PT 2. Although there is a nice little arc across the two series, starting with Journeys End and ending with the aforementioned Preemptive Strike.
It is one possible theory (ie. Lawyrence of Arabia / Cardassia). However I would present that it's quite common in history for rebel groups to straddle the border to make hit and run attacks. It's common tactic and may not require direction of Section 31.
If Sec. 31 was at least partially responsible for disrupting the Cardassian government using the Maquis. I suspect that they hoped to get the Cardassian government to collapse, at which point the benevolent Federation would step in and offer help. After a while, when the Cardassians were reliant upon and grateful to the Federation for help, they would be offered a chance to join the Federation. It's a similar situation to what the Federation has done on many other occasions.
I can agree with you on the bajorans have you underground railroad because the conditions that the bajorans were living under was quite horrible but I highly doubt that section 31 was in on it
So, why does Garak never throw section 31 in Bashir's face. Why does Odo never have an arms shipment he cannot explain. Why does Quark never get a bribe and throw it in Sisko's face. Why does Kira give such attitude to Starfleet in the early days.. Why has no one thrown section 31 in Worfs face. Why did the Duras never mention it.. Why do, they not shoot leyton.
To be honest Section 31 would probably want a bit more stable Cardassian Union as major de-stablizations lead to cascading problems that spill over into other areas. A de-stablized Cardassian Union would invariably turn several military ships into roving pirates with no governmental authority in the region to reign them in. With so much chaos on the Cardassian border the Romulan and Klingon empires would seek opportunities where the Federation could no longer give any attention to, not to mention Breen and Ferengi. Secret intelligence organizations like simple and clean decisive strikes that don't lead back to them. Grand strategy involvement even behind the scenes causes too many links that can be traced back. Unlike the Tal'Shiar and Obsidian Order the vast majority of the Federation is ignorant of Section 31's even existence. Section 31 operates on a small scale that makes the most impact, getting a mole in the Tal'Shiar and later the Romulan senate, using a routine scan of Odo to inject a virus to have him act as a carrier. If there was any manipulation in the DMZ it would more likely be Dominion influence. As demonstrated when they took Sisko and Quark prisoner along with a vorta posing as a prisoner, they demonstrated they had extensive knowledge of the various power structures in the Alpha quadrant. They also demonstrated keen skill on infiltrating all the quadrant powers at the highest level. They had a changling as the head of the Tal'Shiar who manipulated the Cardassian Obsidian Order 're-instated' head Enabrin Tain, swapped out Gowran's right hand General Martok and also fostered distrust inside the Federation on Earth itself. They also probably had a hand in helping the Cardassian Dissident Movement with the intent of using it conjunction with their operations to destroy the Obsidian Order and cause the Klingons to go to war with the Union. They needed a foothold in the Alpha quadrant that could hold the wormhole to allow a continued supply line. The Cardassian Union is the only logical choice due to its proximity, militaristic culture and size big enough to do the job but small enough that it could be easily taken over and controlled. Basically the Dominion had to make the Union desperate enough to willingly join them by ridding them of their loathed but highly effective authoritarian intelligence organization, install an unstable new government that goes against the core structure their society as been accustomed to for many generations, have them feel like they are surrounded by enemies and then appeal to their pride and desire for conquest and offer them a deal they can't refuse.
Your theory does have some merit when you consider that a Starfleet admiral had Ro taken out of prison to help the Enterprise. Though he was supposedly helping the Cardassians eliminate Bajoran resistance fighters.
Ehi wait a minute! How can the maquis still be around, if the cardassian occupation is still happening? The maquis in ds9 make their first appearance one year after the end of the occupation...
Love a good conspiracy and OMG I literally JUST watched TNG S01E24 just prior to this. How crazy is that shit. Anyhoo I love this and the kicker is you cant prove a negative so this will always be a maybe. I wish they did more with the ending of that episode it was left open like the Borg but i guess the Borg beat that threat by being more interesting in NERD focus groups back in 1988.
I'm on the fence on if the DMZ colonies were a product of actual political intent or simple population issues. That said, it doesn't really matter because S31's most likely reaction was the same: The Federation was having to deal with enough threats, and although the Cardassians were a relatively minor one, they were still a threat, so it made sense to deal with them in the most economical configuration possible. The easiest way to do that is to create neutral buffer states to limit actual direct borders, similar to what the USSR did with Finland and Mongolia. They likely would see an opportunity with the Maquis to create a neutral buffer state, and likely supported them for that reason. The goal wasn't to incapacitate the Cardassians, but rather "Make the Cardassians someone else's problem for as long as possible so we can at least deal with all the other crap on the list". For what it's worth, I think the Obsidian Order had the exact same thoughts regarding the Federation, and this was the cause of Bajoran independence. If you ask different parties, be it the Resistance, Dukat, or other parties; they all give different answers on who was responsible for the Cardassians pulling out of Bajor. The most suspicious one is Dukat saying that it was a decision of the Civilian government (which I call bullshit on, because that was basically a banana republic.) All of that said, I can see the Obsidian Order looking at the occupation and deciding that, after 50 years of strip mining and constantly increasing security costs, the economic returns of the Bajoran occupation were dropping. Eventually, the returns of the occupation were going to drop below the savings in security costs that a buffer state would bring, particularly given that eventually the occupation would start being an economic loss. A buffer state with the Federation would eliminate lots of costs by minimizing border conflicts. They thought that Bajor would not join the Federation, due to the population that resented the Federation for its limited aid. So I think the Obsidian Order encouraged the pull-out to save money and make a neutral state. If this sounds far-fetched, it does make more sense than any official explanation. Dukat openly admitted that there was only one cell that they couldn't effectively handle, so the narrative of the resistance doesn't hold up, and neither does the explanation of pressure from the civilian government. This, on the other hand, makes sense.
I can’t remember if I got the idea from one of your past videos or elsewhere, but what if Section 31 knew about the wormhole way way back, so they did all their maneuverings so that Cardassia would leave Bajor and cede control of the region? That way, Starfleet could “discover” the wormhole, and would be the guardians of the gate, to better defend the Alpha Quadrant by inadvertently giving S31 unlimited access and a port to operate from. Who’s to say that DS9 wasn’t crawling with S31 operatives? And who’s to say that “Sloan” wasn’t just an Android, or clone like Wayoun? Perhaps there are many Sloans, each with different appearances, and tailored to best appeal to their asset? (Ie. mystery man in black for Bashir’s fancies)? Conspiracies are fun! Yay for planting unsubstantiated ideas!
Assuming that this is, at least mostly, true I do have to wonder how the discovery of the Bajoran Wormhole and then later the Dominion changed Section 31's plans. I wouldn't be surprised if there was at some people in there going "Hey, remember all that stuff we did to destabilize and weaken the Cardassian Union?" "Yeah?" "With all this new info the latest prediction models show them joining the Dominion instead of losing power, territory, influence, and whatever else the old models said." "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-" Unless Section 31 somehow knew about the Wormhole and somehow had a way to use it without it putting on that great big show it puts on whenever a ship goes in or out of it. But c'mon, no one would be dumb enough to put something that stupid into canon... rIght?
I was always under the impression that the Maquis were formed after the bajoran occupation ended. the way I understood it, the same peace terms that freed bajor, also ceded many federation colonies to the cardassians. also, does anyone else see a correlation between the maquis colonies and the Israeli settlements in the west bank? Im not trying to start a political flame war, I just think the two situations share some similarities
We don't know all of the details of Federation citizenship law. It could be that these Bajorans were simply the children of refugees who fled to the Federation, or even people who moved to the Federation before the occupation even began. Regarding the colonists, it could be that they were Federation citizens in an area legally outside the Federation, similar to how the people of Greenland are citizens of the EU by way of Denmark, despite being legally outside the EU.
Ensign Ro seemed like a terrible choice for infiltrate the Maquis...She was Bajoran, yes; but her personality seemed like it was tailor made to join the Maquis. Choosing her for the mission was either an utterly stupid choice or a brilliant one if there was a conspiracy a foot.
It makes sense... Section 31 has only one goal: Protect the Federation. And if at one point peace with the Cardassians allows the Federation to allocate more resources to fight another thread Section 31 will do anything to assure that this peace happens. And my interpretation is that Starfleet desperately needed at least a short peace time to modernize its fleet (and the Galaxy Project is this modernization with the Galaxy and Nebula being only the first wave of new designs). It's even possible that Section 31 helped overthrow the Military government and replace it with a more diplomacy oriented Detapa Council... just for the klingons to ruin the plan of pacifying the Cardassians with their paranoia. Or that could have been part of the plan as well, just that instead of allowing the Federation to pull a Marshall-plan on the Cardassians Gul Dukat joined the Dominion instead and got put into power.
Interesting conspiracy theory, though I doubt it's the case, simply for meta-reasons. I don't think the DS9 writers knew Section 31 would be a thing until the point they showed up late in season 6. There's a lot you could tie to them since they are such a manipulative, behind-the-scenes sort of organization, but I don't believe any of that was placed by the writers with Section 31 in mind. I wish 31 had come into play earlier in the series so more could have been done with them, it's such a great plot thread that would have been even better if it had more time to work with.
You know how section 31 appears and magically disappeared without any transporter signs or warp signatures. What if they used a more advanced version of the spore drive? What do you think Lore?
You described usual political and subversive activities of every major power ever, nothing new and certainly nothing in the realm of conspiracy. Conspiracy would mean covert secretive action of one group inside larger group against will of that group. This is not the case here. Its just that producers didn't had that much time to describe political and intelligence activities to that detail, nor anybody would be interested anyway (you watch that on television every day).
Another conspiracy theory question would be of how a species that had used up all of it's resources and had to enslave bajor for it's survival developed the technical breakthroughs to amass on equal footing with the federation and Klingons. Cardassian technology is unique and not completely cross compatible as we've learned from DS9. It took Obrien an extensive amount of time to get only some of the systems up to Starfleet standards. The remaining technology on DS9 was left as is. We know the occupation of bajor created the means of production, but where did they get the tech? Did S31 compose a half botched mission where its plan was to manipulate Cardassia to fight in federation proxy wars and in return gave federation research to moles within the obsidian order? Was S31 responsible for the occupation of bajor? We know that in one TNG episode, in one universe, bajor was never occupied, defeated the cardassians, had powerful warships that rivaled Galaxy class ships, and they were territorially agressive to the federation. Its possible that S31 foresaw bajor as a threat and gave cardassia the breakthroughs it needed to conquer the threat. But when the dogs attacked their handlers in the first federation-cardassian war, they took a different approach and began manipulating bajor.
The best way to deal with the Cardassians would've been to utterly cripple their Military-industrial complex. Starfleet could identify Cardassian technology while remaining relatively undetectable to the Cardassians. They could've executed a series of devastating surgical strikes against vital infrastructure assets(shipyards, fuel depots, mines, foundaries, etc.). The Cardassian Union could've been brought to its knees in months and a more favorable treaty could've been established. One should never negotiate with a weaker party. Negotiation is only necessary when both parties are on equal footing. The Federation can never seem to grasp this one simple concept. As such, they are terrible at negotiating favorable terms ie the Treaty of Algeron with the Romulan Star Empire AKA the Federatuon's only true rival among the powers of the Alpha/Beta quadrants.
I don't think the Bajoran Resistance and Section-31 had an alliance, just because thats not how Section-31 operate. I can definitely buy that Section-31 are funneling weapons, equipment, maybe even intel to the Bajorans, same way the CIA did for the Mujahedin in Afghanistan against the Soviets in the 1980's, but S-31 would have done it all from the shadows, probably through go-betweens like the Ferengi who would be more than willing to ship all kinds of shady stuff with no questions asked. The Bajorans would never know where this stuff is coming from and they wouldn't ask questions either, since they were just grateful for the support. Thats why Section-31 were so good at what they did, because they went to such lengths to make sure no one even knew they existed and no one would believe an organization like them even could exist in the happy-happy-we're-so-peaceful Federation. To paraphrase Mordin Solus from Mass Effect "Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, all obvious threats. Section-31? Never see us coming"
That's good teory. CIA works in similar way i 60 in central and south America countries. No one knows three od a wormhole and the Dominium. Sectio 31move in manner that's You show had sens.
There is only on thing that doesn't fit. Bajor was already free when the Maquis was formed, since the Maquis established itself after the treaty between Cardassia and the Federation was signed in 2370. But the Cardassians left Bajor in 2369. No occupation, no resistance.
it fits perfectly. Many Bajorans lived their entire lives, generations in fact, fighting the Cardassians. We see on several occasions that there are many that just cant let go of it, it's a way of life for them. Even though they pushed the Cardies out, there was still a sense that they had to make them pay for what they had done. When hate and retribution become a way of life, it becomes almost impossible to let go and walk away from it as if everything is cool now. It's only logical that some would move on to continue the fight else where.
I'm not so sure. The colonists in the DMZ hated the Federation almost as much as Cardassia since they wouldn't go to war for them. The Maquis leaders like Eddington and Hudson said similar lines right before their defection. I can't see the Maquis willingly working for people they hate just to fight Cardassia. But then, the Bajorans political party the Circle was unknowingly working with Cardassia. It just seemed like it would have been less of a problem to cede those worlds to the spoon heads.
Eddington and Hudson were both double agents before they left. I doubt they were the only ones. The Maquis were happy to accept aid from sympathizers. Section 31 assuredly had cover stories for all of their activities.
Section 31 is the only reason the post-Classic Federation gets any kind of pass from me. Section 31 - well, its writers, at least - understood how things work in the real world. Later-DS9 tried to pay lip service to Roddenberry's vision by writing Section 31 as an eeeeevil viper buried at the heart of the Federation, but really, post-Kirk, there's little chance that the Federation would have survived without its existence.
Section-31 are vipers, in that they are the snake that guards the dreamers. The idealists and peaceful explorers can have their beautiful world of progress and cooperation, because Section-31 are defending them from the shadows and doing the dark deeds that no one else can.
One thing I have to disagree with here is the thought that Bajoran refugees wouldn't want to be near Bajor. We know Bajor is very close to the DMZ and the Badlands, both hubs of Maquis activity. It may have been the closest Federation cluster of colonies to Bajor. We see what the refugee camps are like with ensign Ro on TNG and what the Maquis live like through Eddington on DS9, and while it may not be much better conditions, at least they're not waiting around to die. They're doing something. That can be a powerful motivation on its own for a highly religious and spiritual people that are under occupation and threat of extermination. Many of those people were likely helping the resistance in various ways before the occupation ended. Once that happened they could focus on the problems in the DMZ to keep pushing the Cardassians back. The fact that so many within Starfleet eventually sided with the Maquis and defected to them fully shows that there was a large amount of sympathy and support for them within the regular ranks, far beyond what a regular Section 31 op looked like when we saw them in DS9. They're small, clandestine, and use very few people to get the job done, whether it's recruiting Bashir, infecting Odo, or assassinating a Romulan senator. Just look at how many high ranking officers leave Starfleet to join the Maquis and imagine how many more were still inside helping to supply them when needed. I don't think Section 31 needs to be involved to explain this in the simplest or most likely terms.
01:40 What makes you think Starfleet decides where Bajoran citizens live? More, aren't Bajorans with the greatest hatred of the Cardassians and/or those helping the Bajoran Resistance most likely to live somewhere closer to home? You seem to be suggesting also that there is something odd about the Federation accepting refugees. Why? 03:00 You seem to be making the same error nearly all conspiracy theorists make--putting everything down to a "cunning plan," which of course means these plans will always work and would obviously work. In fact such things almost never work as planned. Study of actual history shows everyone's plans are nearly always flawed on every side, with a hefty chunk of random chance into the works. 04:01 Hmmm...not a bad theory as far as it goes. But your context creates the impression the Peace Treaty and Demilitirized Zone must have been part of Section 31's nefarious plans all along. Given how genuinely covert Section 31 seems to be, makes more sense to me they nudge things in directions, ever ready to react to emerging circumstances, rather than drawing out elaborate plans dependent on so many individuals acting precisely where as expected. Given what we know of Section 31 I think the basic premise--that they (indirectly) helped the Maquis and Bajoran Resistance--is more than solid. It would be startling were it not true. On the other hand, if Section 31 did not exist I am also sure both Bajor and the Maquis had plenty of sympathizers will to lend support of various kinds--just as the Sinn Fein, French Resistance , Contras, Al Qaeda, Zionist Rebels, and PLO have had. Of course groups like Section 31 and the Obsidian Order had their fingers in this set of pies.
Even if we accept the withdrawal happened before the dmz..I still could see both former bajoran resistance fighters and section 31 working to destabilize
What is it with you conspiracy theorists? Just because every single word you said makes perfect sense and has a way better than even chance of being correct doesn't... Oh wait...NVM :P
Bajorans and section 31 fueling their rebellion and Bajorans sympathising with the maquis I can handle. However, the establishment of the DMZ and the fueling of the maquis took a while, and section 31 wouldn't have bothered with someone as weak as the cardasians. They weren't a threat until they joined the Dominion. Section 31 were to deal with threats to the federation; the cardasians don't meet that mandate.
LoreReloaded the star trek universe makes no sense because of replicator technology. 1) replicators where invented by the vulcans so why do the romulans not have replicators? 2) even if it was invented after the secession the romulans would surely try to steal it. 3) the klingons somehow dont have replicators in spite of having literally having hundreds if not thousands of samples to reverse engineer. An this goes for the Breen an Cardassians. 4) why hasn't the dominion invented their own replicator device? It makes zero sense on why the federation is the only state that has replicator technology that allows them to mass produce ships an weapons. Hell they have replicators on basically every ship allowing for the creation of food. Something that only a few species dont take advantage of because of their culture an viewing replicated food as inferior. So it's not like there is a lack of samples to reverse engineer an extrapolate on.
@@VelvetCondoms it is heavily implied due to the romulans tip toeing around the federation due to a lack of ship production while being fairly aggressive an subverse towards others such as the Klingons which have a fairly similar problem with the federation which would make no sense if they had repicators capable of producing ships an weapons.
I mean I'm sorry but you're insufferable smug delivery is intolerable. I agree with you on principle that is really hard to listen to you... Maybe consider a swipe tweak in how you give us this information?
I'm sorry but I have to agree, I like these videos but the delivery sounds like a Schoolmaster lecturing insubordinate young students. Is there a way to soften that a bit? Thanks.
BULLSHIT SECTION 31 wasnt even created until the STAR TREK : DS9 episode INQUISITION I still think it was all SLOAN'S FICTION STAR TREK : ENTERPRISE went way too far with it and so did STAR TREK : INTO DARKNESS
That would explain a few of the plot holes like the lack of real intelligence that Starfleet is supposed to be great at getting. It would also explain where most of the Maquis weapons and ships came from as Starfleet security can't be that bad. I mean, how hard would it be to steal a tank or helicopter from a military installation today? The Maquis aren't rich so they can't buy the stuff so if someone in the Federation had a few fighters "fall off the transport" during delivery, who would know?
You can buy used apc's, tanks and even old jet fighters (all defanged) on the open market these days so I'd expect something similar in the future. Just replicate the needed parts and get some retired Federation engineer to make beam weapons out of a wad of gum and a paperclips and they'd be ready to go. They wouldn't be top of the line space fighters but it's better than just cussing at the Cardasians and flipping them the bird.
the real joke of the maquis is even the most fledgling colony should be able to produce their own ships at scale. large scale replicator sure be the norm for fed colonies so all they would need id the power which should also be easily to come by
A bunch of Ferengi were able to buy second hand Klingon Birds of Prey, compete with cloaks (Just needed weapons bought on the open market) that were capable of disabling a Galaxy class ship if it wasn't expecting attack.
And they would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids.
Except that this ISN'T easy. To either steal OR buy used guys. Your talking hundreds of thousands of dollars AT LEAST for a used tank or military aircraft. Not to mention maintenance costs and being able to house such things. Maquis an others of them in their area don't have facilities even if they had money for large ships. Too bad though they didn't have any strong war like friends though to back what they had and got like Klingons, Andorians, Ferengi, Vulcans, etc who would or be willing to help fight or negotiate for them without which they had no chance once a serious threat like the Dominion showed up and then soon rolled right over them and kept going.
Why does everybody keep saying the Maquis drove the Cardassians to the Dominion? They may have driven them out of the DMZ, but I think the Cardassians turned to the Dominion because of how devastated they were by the Klingon invasion, not the Maquis. I mean sure, it didn't help, but I don't really think the Maquis were the deciding factor.
Tribble agents had one job, the Klingons
Take it a step further: What if Ro Lauren was a member of Section 31? She was originally recruited to expose Admiral Kennelly as a Cardassian sympathizer. She became a part of the bridge crew for the Federation flag ship. Is there a better way to keep tabs on everything? She then received advanced tactical training. At that point Section 31 thought it would be best to fully bring her knowledge over to the Marquis.
Plausible?
Damn, that's a very likely scenario.
Second that. On the one hand I felt her regret is too genuine for that. More likely to me that she was just set up without knowing. It would have been an interesting twist. But I feel she would act differently if that had been the case.
In fact it would make more sense for her to disconnect from the crew of the Enterprise more. Like when O'Neill (Stargate SG-1) started disobeying orders and acting out to infiltrate the rogue group. It would sell it more when they do their check on her.
I always thought Lauren was 31.
I like this episode a great deal, VERY WELL DONE‼️ I think the plan you posed, that Section 31 would mastermind, exactly something Section 31 would devise. Especially considering the basic background information known by this point in DS9, and the main timeline.
An interesting what if…Sisko never opened the wormhole so no Dominion, what would have happened?
[WARNING ESSAY LENGTH]
Either Sisko didn't find the wormhole ect, he didn't go to Bajor, or Locutus took an extra shot at the Saratoga to make sure.
The Dominion was an 'out of context' problem, it could not be foreseen and be accounted for in any plans - besides the generic 'have a big tough military', and take advantage of the fact that you have telepathic species that could detect any infiltrators if you only used then extensively for intelligence - Betazoids could not read the minds of changlings, which was a clue that they were changlings, and as for the Vorta…
So what would have happened? The Marquis continue to bleed the Cardassians, who respond with more overt and bloodthirsty reprisals against Federation CITIZENS. Bajor goes all in with the Federation and a lot of former Bajorian militia try out for Starfleet. Bajor tries political maneuvering within the Federation to give more support for the colonists.
Cardassians would hit non Marquis Federation citizens either by accident, "arranged" accident (fed false Intel by Section 31 or even Marquis) or just out of frustration. And then things get interesting.
Bajor can request Starfleet ships be stationed there, and what if a powerful Galaxy class ship, (say the Odyssey?) was put on guard duty. Bajor could get it's defense fleet re equiped by Starfleet as well. So there's a build up of Starfleet near the DMZ and since there are no other threatening powers (except the Romulan cold war, and a future Borg attack) Starfleet can afford to concentrate forces. Note thanks to Wolf 359, Starfleet does have some new ship types, besides the mothballed Defiant, that are more combat orientated, not that it's really needed against Cardassians.
So what is the endgame, and is it according to Section 31's plan?
Section 31 would like to see Starfleet get tougher, but they are dedicated to protecting the ideals of the Federation as well, it's just that they don't follow them themselves. As Sloan said to Bashir, he does what he does so good people like Julian could contribute to the Federation. They would be against the idea of a military coup like what almost happened in 'Paradise Lost', but a war against a belligerent foe that didn't (yet) have the power to overwhelm the Federation would help stiffen the military. A more muscular Federation, but with the same "benevolent" ideology and less border issues.
Also there was the long term risk that Cardassia may one day get their hands on superior weapons technology from a alien race, or just ally themselves with other factions (well they did, the Dominion). A Romulan, Cardassian, Breen alliance would be a threat, even without the knowledge that the Breen had energy dampening weapons, [and in such a war that one Klingon ship might not have made that modification, and how the hell do you run a covert opp against the Breen to steal a ship? So ironically the Dominion may have prevented the Breen from winning any future war against a alpha quadrant power].
So taking out Cardassia makes long term strategic sense, and furthermore it could cement the alliance with the Klingons, invite them to the Federation Cardassian war 2 (This time we roll into Bagdad, oops, Cardassia prime). The Klingons would be thrilled, a good war is good for internal stability, gives their hotheads and agitators something to do, and keeps them fighting fit. Also the clear thinkers would know that fighting side by side with the Federation would help the Empire in the long term as it would ease tensions and make other powers think that if you messed with the Empire, you messed with the Federation. Besides it would make the obvious Romulan plans to split the alliance much more difficult.
So the Empire is more stable and has better relations with (and respects as warriors) the Federation. That would be a long term goal of Section 31, ensuring that the Klingon Empire is a stable reliable ally. And besides, humans, being human - after fighting side by side with the Klingons, there would be a bunch of Klingon Human hybrids born soon after.
That may have been be the long term strategic plan of Section 31, then the Federation absorbs Cardassia, similar to post WW2 Japan or West Germany.
If such a scenario did occur (in another quantum reality) what would be the long term outcome? Voyager would probably return the same, depending on Admiral Janeway's actions in non post Dominion war Federation (The knowledge of the war, sent through the relay, didn't have that much influence) so Starfleet gets a power up courtesy of Voyager.
Section 31 still probably had compromised Romulan intelligence, Shinzon never becomes a war hero and gets control of the Scimitar (and maybe it was never developed), Bashir is never approached to join Section 31 because he's never suspected of being a Dominion agent, so Section 31 stays even more hidden.
Then the Federation keeps expanding, and eventually meets the Dominion, in maybe a century or two. And by that time Starfleet is much more advanced and much bigger (with a lot of species, some of which may have very useful abilities), while the Dominion is relatively static, so the Dominion would lose any conflict as their comparatively less advanced ships get Instagibbed. Anti founder tech would be much more likely as just the higher tech level, and better understanding of Odo's physiology from medical studies over the years (plus more telepaths). Plus the Dominion wouldn't even have the tech to travel to the alpha quadrant and the Federation would have heard of them as they slowly approached, not turned up in the middle of their territory due to a wormhole.
So the Dominion war is just a one sided skirmish, and the history books tell of the Marquis as freedom fighters, to the slight discomfort of Cardassian (and quasi Cardassian) Starfleet personnel.
Did you ever go on Star Trek The Cruise? I went on #2. It was awesome to have tech conversations like this with others. Would recommend it.
More like these my good lad please. Much appreciated
You just described my conspiracy theory on the subject.
Had an idea to write it up, as an end cap for the Starfleet Marine stories I was writing but... I never finished them, out always seemed like there was some tiny bit of lore out there which refuted my plots and thoughts. Which is, ironically, the reason I started watching UA-cam shows like yours, lol... the reason I started watching this was because I couldn't confirm, or deny, this exact theory... well, guess I can stop tumbling down the Section 31 rabbit hole now, lmao.
It's an interesting idea though.
Indeed.
My "in" was the ridiculously low Bajoran deaths due to the occupation, which started me wondering if it was all really a smear campaign against the Cardassians...
I know, I know... millions and billions are statistics, hundreds and thousands are personal and easily imagined, but... we're talking about a planetary assault and occupation, statistics has a place in that.
Anyways, my thought was to write something up to explain it. Figured Section 31 was doing something like arming and the Afghan people during the Russian invasion and occupation of that real world nation.
The plan was to write out three stories, the first at the start of the occupation and beginning of the resistance, the second telling the tale of the Maquis, and the third would cover the aftermath.
All of it told from the point of view of a small federation special ops team.
This was meant to be an exploration of the dark side of the federation, there were actually six other stories following these soldiers as they progressed from young, hopeful, even idealistic Starfleet marine recruits on through battle after battle until they become hardened and bitter, eventually rebelling against the federation...
But, I kept running into a singular problem... too much lore to keep track of, lol... so I started watching Lore Reloaded to fill those gaps in knowledge, but every time I think I'm there... Lore goes and reveals just how little I truly know.
Love your Lore vids man, you bring a lot of information to the table... you ever consider doing a Skyrim Civil War Lore vid?... that is, if you don't mind an endless conflict, or, "Season Unending" in the comment section
Wow that is unbelievably complicated and you Cantonese were very will though out think you so much very much.
It makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered the 'mostly-Bajoran Federation citizens' angle before...
If true, another way this plan back fired on the Federation was when so many experienced and well trained Starfleet Officers deserted their posts to join the Maquis. This might also explain one possible source of the Maquis equipment.
I like this theory, great work sir. And remember Section 31 is everywhere
Premier notification comes after premier is over :(
Late to the Party on this one, but Preemptive Strike aired 3 weeks after the Maquis PT 2. Although there is a nice little arc across the two series, starting with Journeys End and ending with the aforementioned Preemptive Strike.
It is one possible theory (ie. Lawyrence of Arabia / Cardassia). However I would present that it's quite common in history for rebel groups to straddle the border to make hit and run attacks. It's common tactic and may not require direction of Section 31.
If Sec. 31 was at least partially responsible for disrupting the Cardassian government using the Maquis. I suspect that they hoped to get the Cardassian government to collapse, at which point the benevolent Federation would step in and offer help. After a while, when the Cardassians were reliant upon and grateful to the Federation for help, they would be offered a chance to join the Federation. It's a similar situation to what the Federation has done on many other occasions.
I can agree with you on the bajorans have you underground railroad because the conditions that the bajorans were living under was quite horrible but I highly doubt that section 31 was in on it
the number of Starfleet officers in the Maquis is also a factor but the obsidian order and other intelligence would be taking part at some leve
I could easily see section 31 pulling this stunt.
right!?
So, why does Garak never throw section 31 in Bashir's face. Why does Odo never have an arms shipment he cannot explain. Why does Quark never get a bribe and throw it in Sisko's face. Why does Kira give such attitude to Starfleet in the early days.. Why has no one thrown section 31 in Worfs face. Why did the Duras never mention it.. Why do, they not shoot leyton.
OR Garak, knew Bashir was just the type that Section 31 would recruit, so he keeps him close..
No good intelligence agent would tell the other side they know about them.
Quark did successfully bribe Capt Sisco in Pale Moonlight.
I like where you are going with this.
To be honest Section 31 would probably want a bit more stable Cardassian Union as major de-stablizations lead to cascading problems that spill over into other areas. A de-stablized Cardassian Union would invariably turn several military ships into roving pirates with no governmental authority in the region to reign them in. With so much chaos on the Cardassian border the Romulan and Klingon empires would seek opportunities where the Federation could no longer give any attention to, not to mention Breen and Ferengi. Secret intelligence organizations like simple and clean decisive strikes that don't lead back to them. Grand strategy involvement even behind the scenes causes too many links that can be traced back. Unlike the Tal'Shiar and Obsidian Order the vast majority of the Federation is ignorant of Section 31's even existence. Section 31 operates on a small scale that makes the most impact, getting a mole in the Tal'Shiar and later the Romulan senate, using a routine scan of Odo to inject a virus to have him act as a carrier.
If there was any manipulation in the DMZ it would more likely be Dominion influence. As demonstrated when they took Sisko and Quark prisoner along with a vorta posing as a prisoner, they demonstrated they had extensive knowledge of the various power structures in the Alpha quadrant. They also demonstrated keen skill on infiltrating all the quadrant powers at the highest level. They had a changling as the head of the Tal'Shiar who manipulated the Cardassian Obsidian Order 're-instated' head Enabrin Tain, swapped out Gowran's right hand General Martok and also fostered distrust inside the Federation on Earth itself. They also probably had a hand in helping the Cardassian Dissident Movement with the intent of using it conjunction with their operations to destroy the Obsidian Order and cause the Klingons to go to war with the Union. They needed a foothold in the Alpha quadrant that could hold the wormhole to allow a continued supply line.
The Cardassian Union is the only logical choice due to its proximity, militaristic culture and size big enough to do the job but small enough that it could be easily taken over and controlled. Basically the Dominion had to make the Union desperate enough to willingly join them by ridding them of their loathed but highly effective authoritarian intelligence organization, install an unstable new government that goes against the core structure their society as been accustomed to for many generations, have them feel like they are surrounded by enemies and then appeal to their pride and desire for conquest and offer them a deal they can't refuse.
Your theory does have some merit when you consider that a Starfleet admiral had Ro taken out of prison to help the Enterprise. Though he was supposedly helping the Cardassians eliminate Bajoran resistance fighters.
Full conspiracy theory playlist please
Ehi wait a minute! How can the maquis still be around, if the cardassian occupation is still happening? The maquis in ds9 make their first appearance one year after the end of the occupation...
Love a good conspiracy and OMG I literally JUST watched TNG S01E24 just prior to this. How crazy is that shit. Anyhoo I love this and the kicker is you cant prove a negative so this will always be a maybe. I wish they did more with the ending of that episode it was left open like the Borg but i guess the Borg beat that threat by being more interesting in NERD focus groups back in 1988.
I feel old, but to be fare I was only 7 back then. XD
I'm on the fence on if the DMZ colonies were a product of actual political intent or simple population issues. That said, it doesn't really matter because S31's most likely reaction was the same:
The Federation was having to deal with enough threats, and although the Cardassians were a relatively minor one, they were still a threat, so it made sense to deal with them in the most economical configuration possible. The easiest way to do that is to create neutral buffer states to limit actual direct borders, similar to what the USSR did with Finland and Mongolia. They likely would see an opportunity with the Maquis to create a neutral buffer state, and likely supported them for that reason. The goal wasn't to incapacitate the Cardassians, but rather "Make the Cardassians someone else's problem for as long as possible so we can at least deal with all the other crap on the list".
For what it's worth, I think the Obsidian Order had the exact same thoughts regarding the Federation, and this was the cause of Bajoran independence. If you ask different parties, be it the Resistance, Dukat, or other parties; they all give different answers on who was responsible for the Cardassians pulling out of Bajor. The most suspicious one is Dukat saying that it was a decision of the Civilian government (which I call bullshit on, because that was basically a banana republic.) All of that said, I can see the Obsidian Order looking at the occupation and deciding that, after 50 years of strip mining and constantly increasing security costs, the economic returns of the Bajoran occupation were dropping. Eventually, the returns of the occupation were going to drop below the savings in security costs that a buffer state would bring, particularly given that eventually the occupation would start being an economic loss. A buffer state with the Federation would eliminate lots of costs by minimizing border conflicts. They thought that Bajor would not join the Federation, due to the population that resented the Federation for its limited aid. So I think the Obsidian Order encouraged the pull-out to save money and make a neutral state. If this sounds far-fetched, it does make more sense than any official explanation. Dukat openly admitted that there was only one cell that they couldn't effectively handle, so the narrative of the resistance doesn't hold up, and neither does the explanation of pressure from the civilian government. This, on the other hand, makes sense.
I can’t remember if I got the idea from one of your past videos or elsewhere, but what if Section 31 knew about the wormhole way way back, so they did all their maneuverings so that Cardassia would leave Bajor and cede control of the region? That way, Starfleet could “discover” the wormhole, and would be the guardians of the gate, to better defend the Alpha Quadrant by inadvertently giving S31 unlimited access and a port to operate from. Who’s to say that DS9 wasn’t crawling with S31 operatives?
And who’s to say that “Sloan” wasn’t just an Android, or clone like Wayoun? Perhaps there are many Sloans, each with different appearances, and tailored to best appeal to their asset? (Ie. mystery man in black for Bashir’s fancies)?
Conspiracies are fun! Yay for planting unsubstantiated ideas!
The underground warp trail?
The underground ion wake?
The underground impulse pattern?
We will get there
The underground transwarp conduit?
The freedom warp ?
The subspace trail?
Freedom underspace
Subspace freedom trail
The Bajoran to Maquis liberation pipeline.
Michael Eddington was section 31, I feel that in my bones.
Assuming that this is, at least mostly, true I do have to wonder how the discovery of the Bajoran Wormhole and then later the Dominion changed Section 31's plans. I wouldn't be surprised if there was at some people in there going
"Hey, remember all that stuff we did to destabilize and weaken the Cardassian Union?"
"Yeah?"
"With all this new info the latest prediction models show them joining the Dominion instead of losing power, territory, influence, and whatever else the old models said."
"FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-"
Unless Section 31 somehow knew about the Wormhole and somehow had a way to use it without it putting on that great big show it puts on whenever a ship goes in or out of it. But c'mon, no one would be dumb enough to put something that stupid into canon... rIght?
I was always under the impression that the Maquis were formed after the bajoran occupation ended. the way I understood it, the same peace terms that freed bajor, also ceded many federation colonies to the cardassians. also, does anyone else see a correlation between the maquis colonies and the Israeli settlements in the west bank? Im not trying to start a political flame war, I just think the two situations share some similarities
We don't know all of the details of Federation citizenship law. It could be that these Bajorans were simply the children of refugees who fled to the Federation, or even people who moved to the Federation before the occupation even began. Regarding the colonists, it could be that they were Federation citizens in an area legally outside the Federation, similar to how the people of Greenland are citizens of the EU by way of Denmark, despite being legally outside the EU.
Ensign Ro seemed like a terrible choice for infiltrate the Maquis...She was Bajoran, yes; but her personality seemed like it was tailor made to join the Maquis. Choosing her for the mission was either an utterly stupid choice or a brilliant one if there was a conspiracy a foot.
It makes sense... Section 31 has only one goal: Protect the Federation.
And if at one point peace with the Cardassians allows the Federation to allocate more resources to fight another thread Section 31 will do anything to assure that this peace happens.
And my interpretation is that Starfleet desperately needed at least a short peace time to modernize its fleet (and the Galaxy Project is this modernization with the Galaxy and Nebula being only the first wave of new designs).
It's even possible that Section 31 helped overthrow the Military government and replace it with a more diplomacy oriented Detapa Council... just for the klingons to ruin the plan of pacifying the Cardassians with their paranoia. Or that could have been part of the plan as well, just that instead of allowing the Federation to pull a Marshall-plan on the Cardassians Gul Dukat joined the Dominion instead and got put into power.
Interesting conspiracy theory, though I doubt it's the case, simply for meta-reasons. I don't think the DS9 writers knew Section 31 would be a thing until the point they showed up late in season 6. There's a lot you could tie to them since they are such a manipulative, behind-the-scenes sort of organization, but I don't believe any of that was placed by the writers with Section 31 in mind. I wish 31 had come into play earlier in the series so more could have been done with them, it's such a great plot thread that would have been even better if it had more time to work with.
You know how section 31 appears and magically disappeared without any transporter signs or warp signatures. What if they used a more advanced version of the spore drive? What do you think Lore?
You described usual political and subversive activities of every major power ever, nothing new and certainly nothing in the realm of conspiracy. Conspiracy would mean covert secretive action of one group inside larger group against will of that group. This is not the case here. Its just that producers didn't had that much time to describe political and intelligence activities to that detail, nor anybody would be interested anyway (you watch that on television every day).
Another conspiracy theory question would be of how a species that had used up all of it's resources and had to enslave bajor for it's survival developed the technical breakthroughs to amass on equal footing with the federation and Klingons. Cardassian technology is unique and not completely cross compatible as we've learned from DS9. It took Obrien an extensive amount of time to get only some of the systems up to Starfleet standards. The remaining technology on DS9 was left as is. We know the occupation of bajor created the means of production, but where did they get the tech? Did S31 compose a half botched mission where its plan was to manipulate Cardassia to fight in federation proxy wars and in return gave federation research to moles within the obsidian order? Was S31 responsible for the occupation of bajor? We know that in one TNG episode, in one universe, bajor was never occupied, defeated the cardassians, had powerful warships that rivaled Galaxy class ships, and they were territorially agressive to the federation. Its possible that S31 foresaw bajor as a threat and gave cardassia the breakthroughs it needed to conquer the threat. But when the dogs attacked their handlers in the first federation-cardassian war, they took a different approach and began manipulating bajor.
The best way to deal with the Cardassians would've been to utterly cripple their Military-industrial complex. Starfleet could identify Cardassian technology while remaining relatively undetectable to the Cardassians. They could've executed a series of devastating surgical strikes against vital infrastructure assets(shipyards, fuel depots, mines, foundaries, etc.). The Cardassian Union could've been brought to its knees in months and a more favorable treaty could've been established. One should never negotiate with a weaker party. Negotiation is only necessary when both parties are on equal footing. The Federation can never seem to grasp this one simple concept. As such, they are terrible at negotiating favorable terms ie the Treaty of Algeron with the Romulan Star Empire AKA the Federatuon's only true rival among the powers of the Alpha/Beta quadrants.
Transwarp Caravan.
I don't think the Bajoran Resistance and Section-31 had an alliance, just because thats not how Section-31 operate. I can definitely buy that Section-31 are funneling weapons, equipment, maybe even intel to the Bajorans, same way the CIA did for the Mujahedin in Afghanistan against the Soviets in the 1980's, but S-31 would have done it all from the shadows, probably through go-betweens like the Ferengi who would be more than willing to ship all kinds of shady stuff with no questions asked. The Bajorans would never know where this stuff is coming from and they wouldn't ask questions either, since they were just grateful for the support. Thats why Section-31 were so good at what they did, because they went to such lengths to make sure no one even knew they existed and no one would believe an organization like them even could exist in the happy-happy-we're-so-peaceful Federation. To paraphrase Mordin Solus from Mass Effect "Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, all obvious threats. Section-31? Never see us coming"
That's good teory. CIA works in similar way i 60 in central and south America countries. No one knows three od a wormhole and the Dominium. Sectio 31move in manner that's You show had sens.
There is only on thing that doesn't fit. Bajor was already free when the Maquis was formed, since the Maquis established itself after the treaty between Cardassia and the Federation was signed in 2370. But the Cardassians left Bajor in 2369. No occupation, no resistance.
it fits perfectly. Many Bajorans lived their entire lives, generations in fact, fighting the Cardassians. We see on several occasions that there are many that just cant let go of it, it's a way of life for them. Even though they pushed the Cardies out, there was still a sense that they had to make them pay for what they had done. When hate and retribution become a way of life, it becomes almost impossible to let go and walk away from it as if everything is cool now. It's only logical that some would move on to continue the fight else where.
Pieces being put in place.
I'm not so sure. The colonists in the DMZ hated the Federation almost as much as Cardassia since they wouldn't go to war for them. The Maquis leaders like Eddington and Hudson said similar lines right before their defection. I can't see the Maquis willingly working for people they hate just to fight Cardassia. But then, the Bajorans political party the Circle was unknowingly working with Cardassia. It just seemed like it would have been less of a problem to cede those worlds to the spoon heads.
Eddington and Hudson were both double agents before they left. I doubt they were the only ones. The Maquis were happy to accept aid from sympathizers. Section 31 assuredly had cover stories for all of their activities.
Section 31 is the only reason the post-Classic Federation gets any kind of pass from me. Section 31 - well, its writers, at least - understood how things work in the real world. Later-DS9 tried to pay lip service to Roddenberry's vision by writing Section 31 as an eeeeevil viper buried at the heart of the Federation, but really, post-Kirk, there's little chance that the Federation would have survived without its existence.
Section-31 are vipers, in that they are the snake that guards the dreamers. The idealists and peaceful explorers can have their beautiful world of progress and cooperation, because Section-31 are defending them from the shadows and doing the dark deeds that no one else can.
Subspace Shuttle Course
Instead of underground let’s use a more space version sub space passage
One thing I have to disagree with here is the thought that Bajoran refugees wouldn't want to be near Bajor. We know Bajor is very close to the DMZ and the Badlands, both hubs of Maquis activity. It may have been the closest Federation cluster of colonies to Bajor. We see what the refugee camps are like with ensign Ro on TNG and what the Maquis live like through Eddington on DS9, and while it may not be much better conditions, at least they're not waiting around to die. They're doing something. That can be a powerful motivation on its own for a highly religious and spiritual people that are under occupation and threat of extermination. Many of those people were likely helping the resistance in various ways before the occupation ended. Once that happened they could focus on the problems in the DMZ to keep pushing the Cardassians back.
The fact that so many within Starfleet eventually sided with the Maquis and defected to them fully shows that there was a large amount of sympathy and support for them within the regular ranks, far beyond what a regular Section 31 op looked like when we saw them in DS9. They're small, clandestine, and use very few people to get the job done, whether it's recruiting Bashir, infecting Odo, or assassinating a Romulan senator. Just look at how many high ranking officers leave Starfleet to join the Maquis and imagine how many more were still inside helping to supply them when needed.
I don't think Section 31 needs to be involved to explain this in the simplest or most likely terms.
Then she took over Pegasus
Frack me! I knew there musta been a reason I had a cold shiver run down my spine when that screen shot came up!
So say we all!
Underground Railroad = Subspace Warp Field
01:40 What makes you think Starfleet decides where Bajoran citizens live? More, aren't Bajorans with the greatest hatred of the Cardassians and/or those helping the Bajoran Resistance most likely to live somewhere closer to home? You seem to be suggesting also that there is something odd about the Federation accepting refugees. Why? 03:00 You seem to be making the same error nearly all conspiracy theorists make--putting everything down to a "cunning plan," which of course means these plans will always work and would obviously work. In fact such things almost never work as planned. Study of actual history shows everyone's plans are nearly always flawed on every side, with a hefty chunk of random chance into the works. 04:01 Hmmm...not a bad theory as far as it goes. But your context creates the impression the Peace Treaty and Demilitirized Zone must have been part of Section 31's nefarious plans all along. Given how genuinely covert Section 31 seems to be, makes more sense to me they nudge things in directions, ever ready to react to emerging circumstances, rather than drawing out elaborate plans dependent on so many individuals acting precisely where as expected. Given what we know of Section 31 I think the basic premise--that they (indirectly) helped the Maquis and Bajoran Resistance--is more than solid. It would be startling were it not true. On the other hand, if Section 31 did not exist I am also sure both Bajor and the Maquis had plenty of sympathizers will to lend support of various kinds--just as the Sinn Fein, French Resistance , Contras, Al Qaeda, Zionist Rebels, and PLO have had. Of course groups like Section 31 and the Obsidian Order had their fingers in this set of pies.
Underground Runabout sounds better.
There is only one flaw in your...speculation. The Maquis was fored several years AFTER Cardassians had withdrawn from Bajor.
Even if we accept the withdrawal happened before the dmz..I still could see both former bajoran resistance fighters and section 31 working to destabilize
This is just ANOTHER REASON why I hate star trek, fucking hate section 31!
What is it with you conspiracy theorists? Just because every single word you said makes perfect sense and has a way better than even chance of being correct doesn't...
Oh wait...NVM
:P
Lore, I think your tinfoil hat was on a bit tight with this vid
do go on..
Bajorans and section 31 fueling their rebellion and Bajorans sympathising with the maquis I can handle.
However, the establishment of the DMZ and the fueling of the maquis took a while, and section 31 wouldn't have bothered with someone as weak as the cardasians. They weren't a threat until they joined the Dominion. Section 31 were to deal with threats to the federation; the cardasians don't meet that mandate.
LoreReloaded the star trek universe makes no sense because of replicator technology.
1) replicators where invented by the vulcans so why do the romulans not have replicators?
2) even if it was invented after the secession the romulans would surely try to steal it.
3) the klingons somehow dont have replicators in spite of having literally having hundreds if not thousands of samples to reverse engineer. An this goes for the Breen an Cardassians.
4) why hasn't the dominion invented their own replicator device?
It makes zero sense on why the federation is the only state that has replicator technology that allows them to mass produce ships an weapons. Hell they have replicators on basically every ship allowing for the creation of food. Something that only a few species dont take advantage of because of their culture an viewing replicated food as inferior. So it's not like there is a lack of samples to reverse engineer an extrapolate on.
Where is it ever said that the Romulans do not have Replicators?
@@VelvetCondoms it is heavily implied due to the romulans tip toeing around the federation due to a lack of ship production while being fairly aggressive an subverse towards others such as the Klingons which have a fairly similar problem with the federation which would make no sense if they had repicators capable of producing ships an weapons.
I mean I'm sorry but you're insufferable smug delivery is intolerable. I agree with you on principle that is really hard to listen to you... Maybe consider a swipe tweak in how you give us this information?
I'm sorry but I have to agree, I like these videos but the delivery sounds like a Schoolmaster lecturing insubordinate young students.
Is there a way to soften that a bit?
Thanks.
Probably Not the channel for you guys.. thanks for giving it a try
BULLSHIT
SECTION 31
wasnt even created until the
STAR TREK : DS9 episode
INQUISITION
I still think it was all
SLOAN'S FICTION
STAR TREK : ENTERPRISE
went way too far with it
and so did
STAR TREK : INTO DARKNESS