I'm starting to think that those changes were somewhat inevitable. Versus populum Masses were being said already in many parts of northern Europe (especially Germany, unsurprisingly) as far back as the 1920's or even earlier, so you have to ask why supposedly 100% orthodox pontiffs before John XXIII didn't do anything about it. Maybe they couldn't even if they wanted to, but we'll never know. But even besides that there was already precedent enough to change the Mass. I've seen some Trads say that Pius XII should've never changed the Easter liturgy back in the 50's for this reason. The real question here is not whether the Mass should've been changed at all, it was being changed more often in the years leading to Vat II, but how much and what part of it should've been changed.
vincent santos if you take out the whole issue about altar orientation, then aye. Besides getting rid of some penitential prayers at the beginning and the Last Gospel at the end this Mass shouldn't been very different from the TLM. Heck, I think that one thing that the Anglicans got right was to make their vernacular version of the TLM. If only the TLM was translated into vernacular without any other changes as it happened we would probably be in a better situation than now.
It looks more early church. As in the premature stages of the Christian religion. The tlm shows a more evolved and mature worship in Christianity. How come they downgraded it?
This 1964 TV piece was made by KMOX-TV of St. Louis, MO about the Priory of St. Mary and St. Louis (now St. Louis Abbey). Featured in the video is a Solemn High Mass of the Holy Spirit in the Abbey church, which features the singing of the Georgetown University Glee Club under the direction of Paul Chandler Hume. The monks of the community also chant the propers and some of the ordinary, under the direction of Fr. Austin Rennick, O.S.B.
precursor to the formulation of New Order of Mass...since the whole celebration, the priest faces the people...just remembered that at this time, the 2nd Vatican Council is still on going...
The celebrant of the Mass is the then-president of Georgetown University, the Very Rev. Edward B. Bunn, S.J. The deacon and subdeacon are both monks of the Priory, Fr. Timothy Horner, O.S.B. and Fr. Nicholas Walford, O.S.B., respectively. The commentary is provided by Fr. Leonard Jackson, O.S.B., also a monk of the community.
Thank you very much, as this is one of the few videos in existence, it seems that show what some people call the real "Vatican II Mass". From the missals from this time period that I've bought theoretically speaking this mass shouldn't have been very different from the TLM, besides the whole versus populum thing.
Hey, I went to a church, and the priest stuck with the traditional (until he couldnt do it all anymore by himself cause of his age he got too out of breath doing everything traditionally). But even though he had to make a few slight changes, its still far more traditional than the vast majority of churches today. If you want any video clips of it let me know.
The first blasphemous changes to our Catholic Faith took place under Pius XII from 1951-1958. The disastrous "New Rite of Holy Orders" (June 18,1968) was the final nail in the coffin. The "Novus Ordo Mass" actually started in Autumn of 1967. This "church" is classic Novus Ordo monstrosity which resembles a Masonic meeting hall.
@Domingo Valencia I agree that the Pius XII changes are not "blasphemous". In the early stages of his pontificate, he defended tradition (e.g. Mediator Dei in 1947). But the 1955 change to the Holy Week was indeed a great loss, and the beginning of the plan of liturgical deformation by Annibale Bugnini. In my opinion, such changes were simply the antiquarianism Pius XII condemned a few years prior to that. If he were like Pius X unto his late stages, how much different would the Church be today.
It is a misunderstanding to think that the Mass is facing the people. That is NOT the intention at this point. The Mass is not celebrated primarily for the people, but the monks of the Monastery. Notice that the Mass is oriented to them. This is typical in almost every Monastery where the faithful can assist, historically. The cloister is often separated from the faithful. In short, the faithful are versus populum, not out of some sort of master plan, but rather because there is nowhere else for them to sit. I am with Earl, there was no need to change things...
Maybe it was the decision of the Abbey not to do so? Circular churches were already making it hard for one figure out where was the altar facing at this point of time.
Designed by Gyo Obata and dedicated in 1962, the Abbey church is notable for its thin shell concrete construction and circular design, a testament to the influence of the Liturgical Movement upon the community. Indeed, the church was designed so that Mass could be said facing the people.
The Priory of St. Mary and St. Louis was founded in 1955 by monks of Ampleforth Abbey, Yorkshire, who were invited by prominent St. Louis Catholics to establish a prepatory school for boys. Saint Louis Priory School opened the following year and now has approximately 400 boys in enrolled grades 7-12. The Priory became independent of Ampleforth in 1973 and was raised to abbey status in 1989.
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I still cannot understand why the Catholic Church felt it needed to change the form of Holy Mass.
It was imposed on Catholic Church by Pope Paul VI
I'm starting to think that those changes were somewhat inevitable. Versus populum Masses were being said already in many parts of northern Europe (especially Germany, unsurprisingly) as far back as the 1920's or even earlier, so you have to ask why supposedly 100% orthodox pontiffs before John XXIII didn't do anything about it. Maybe they couldn't even if they wanted to, but we'll never know.
But even besides that there was already precedent enough to change the Mass. I've seen some Trads say that Pius XII should've never changed the Easter liturgy back in the 50's for this reason.
The real question here is not whether the Mass should've been changed at all, it was being changed more often in the years leading to Vat II, but how much and what part of it should've been changed.
The Church was infiltrated and destroyed from within by various satanic forces.
It just doesn't make sense.
@@monus782 This is why the reform wasn’t the cause but a catalyst
Beautiful Mass in a horrid building. A sign of things to come...Now we have a horrid mass in horrid buildings.
This is better than Novus Ordo
vincent santos if you take out the whole issue about altar orientation, then aye. Besides getting rid of some penitential prayers at the beginning and the Last Gospel at the end this Mass shouldn't been very different from the TLM.
Heck, I think that one thing that the Anglicans got right was to make their vernacular version of the TLM. If only the TLM was translated into vernacular without any other changes as it happened we would probably be in a better situation than now.
monus782, I agree with You! That’s so true.
of course!
@@monus782 Nice, you've heard of the English/ Knott Missale Anglicanum.
It looks more early church. As in the premature stages of the Christian religion. The tlm shows a more evolved and mature worship in Christianity. How come they downgraded it?
Versus pupulum: the beginning of the death of the true Mass
This 1964 TV piece was made by KMOX-TV of St. Louis, MO about the Priory of St. Mary and St. Louis (now St. Louis Abbey). Featured in the video is a Solemn High Mass of the Holy Spirit in the Abbey church, which features the singing of the Georgetown University Glee Club under the direction of Paul Chandler Hume. The monks of the community also chant the propers and some of the ordinary, under the direction of Fr. Austin Rennick, O.S.B.
This is a now a Universalist Church
Had no idea that they started to turn their back's to the good Lord' back in sixty4
even as early as 1920s in northern Europe, mostly in Germany unsurprisingly
A Jesuit celebrating Mass in a Benedictine monastery? That's paradoxical!
precursor to the formulation of New Order of Mass...since the whole celebration, the priest faces the people...just remembered that at this time, the 2nd Vatican Council is still on going...
The celebrant of the Mass is the then-president of Georgetown University, the Very Rev. Edward B. Bunn, S.J. The deacon and subdeacon are both monks of the Priory, Fr. Timothy Horner, O.S.B. and Fr. Nicholas Walford, O.S.B., respectively. The commentary is provided by Fr. Leonard Jackson, O.S.B., also a monk of the community.
That is one ugly church building!
It certainly is. Just about everything was aesthetically ugly from this period of history.
Fr. Timothy told me! And it's implicit in his book and in the architectural guide in the appendix.
Thank you very much, as this is one of the few videos in existence, it seems that show what some people call the real "Vatican II Mass". From the missals from this time period that I've bought theoretically speaking this mass shouldn't have been very different from the TLM, besides the whole versus populum thing.
It's the 1962 Missal, before the 1965 changes. The striking difference being the architecture which is not fitting for Catholic liturgy.
@@cruxstationalis The architecture is quite distasteful to be honest.
Hey, I went to a church, and the priest stuck with the traditional (until he couldnt do it all anymore by himself cause of his age he got too out of breath doing everything traditionally). But even though he had to make a few slight changes, its still far more traditional than the vast majority of churches today. If you want any video clips of it let me know.
Are you sure Obata designed the church with that intention? Was it stated somewhere?
Trial balloon...
Who wrote that Kyrie?
Daniel Jaghab Flor Peeters Mass in Honor of Saint Joseph
Isn't the question rendered rather moot in a round church?
The first blasphemous changes to our Catholic Faith took place under Pius XII from 1951-1958.
The disastrous
"New Rite of Holy Orders" (June 18,1968) was the final nail in the coffin.
The "Novus Ordo Mass" actually started in Autumn of 1967.
This "church" is classic Novus Ordo monstrosity which resembles a Masonic meeting hall.
@Domingo Valencia I agree that the Pius XII changes are not "blasphemous". In the early stages of his pontificate, he defended tradition (e.g. Mediator Dei in 1947). But the 1955 change to the Holy Week was indeed a great loss, and the beginning of the plan of liturgical deformation by Annibale Bugnini. In my opinion, such changes were simply the antiquarianism Pius XII condemned a few years prior to that. If he were like Pius X unto his late stages, how much different would the Church be today.
The Mass starts at 17:38.
It is a misunderstanding to think that the Mass is facing the people. That is NOT the intention at this point. The Mass is not celebrated primarily for the people, but the monks of the Monastery. Notice that the Mass is oriented to them. This is typical in almost every Monastery where the faithful can assist, historically. The cloister is often separated from the faithful.
In short, the faithful are versus populum, not out of some sort of master plan, but rather because there is nowhere else for them to sit.
I am with Earl, there was no need to change things...
Ah, but then why doesn't he turn around for the Orate, fratres, or the Ecce Agnus Dei?
Maybe it was the decision of the Abbey not to do so? Circular churches were already making it hard for one figure out where was the altar facing at this point of time.
Designed by Gyo Obata and dedicated in 1962, the Abbey church is notable for its thin shell concrete construction and circular design, a testament to the influence of the Liturgical Movement upon the community. Indeed, the church was designed so that Mass could be said facing the people.
The Priory of St. Mary and St. Louis was founded in 1955 by monks of Ampleforth Abbey, Yorkshire, who were invited by prominent St. Louis Catholics to establish a prepatory school for boys. Saint Louis Priory School opened the following year and now has approximately 400 boys in enrolled grades 7-12. The Priory became independent of Ampleforth in 1973 and was raised to abbey status in 1989.