I Talk DC Fast Charging With Kyle From Out Of Spec
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- Опубліковано 8 сер 2024
- My friend, Kyle Conner from Out Of Spec Studios stopped by the State Of Charge Garage to record a video for his channel of my garage setup and the Ford Intelligent Backup Power system I recently installed.
While he was here, I figured we'd have a quick chat about the state of DC fast charging in the US.
This video is powered by Qmerit, North America’s leading provider of installation services for EV charging, home energy storage, and other electrification technologies. See how Qmerit is making the energy transition easy for home and business owners: qmerit.com/ev/charge
Check out Kyle's Out of Spec video on the State Of Charge Garage: • Visiting The Ultimate ...
Chapters
00:00 Intro
02:23 We begin the discussion
03:48 Network reliability and Tesla's advantage
05:09 Kyle's Rate Your Charge
07:07 Telsa opens up its connector for all to use
09:40 Should we have a government-mandated connector for all to use?
12:02 Outro
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2 EV Gurus, great to listen to a couple of experts who know what they're talking about.
Thanks!
So cool to see you guys together at Tom's garage!
Great video!! Love the conversation between two of the most EV-knowledgeable humans on UA-cam (and probably the planet). You guys should do more collab videos. You both bring so much to the discussion about EV charging. You are both really critical agents of change in the electrification of personal transport.
Thank you, Lori
Because of you two guys I think we have a chance, thanks for being our voice and keep those vocal cords healthy.
Nice caricature of the podcast: Complete with Dom sporting a hair cut and his Nevera photo, Martyn’s mantra framed, Kyle’s road-cast and Tom’s Studio. 12:32
I wonder how many others rewound and paused that!
Thank you! Glad to see this conversation taking place. I had deleted Twitter but will get it back to use Rate My Charge. Plug Share also works. I have a Tesla adapter, but have not used it. Now if we can overcome the anti-EV FUD.
Great conversation! I watched Kyle’s video of your Wall of Fame too. I love these collaborations!
Great Video Tom. Keep up the great work. Love when you and Kyle get together. You and Dave need to do another video. Great Content.
The sweet CCS2 works so well, and we have the CCS dongle with latches that break all over the place in North America, really!
Nice video. You two need to have your own monthly podcast
Well, we do the weekly InsideEVs podcast together, so...
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I know and I watch it every week. I just feel like the Two of you could do a dedicated monthly podcast with deeper tech info
Thanks for that interview
Sitting at a Tesla supercharger and watching this. Lol.
Tom, I enjoyed hearing about your EV adventure (to date) with Kyle’s pop Super Dave Conner on his channel.
Great videos! Learned so much from your videos. Thank you!!
Tesla's EV charger just rock! Yes it is just all what Kyle says design and engineering and software!
It is a rare treat to see these two gurus chatting.
Inside EV podcast….they chat every week. 👍🏻
Great video guys!
You guys should do a New York state gauntlet race following the "magic dock NY corridor" before Kyle goes back to Colorado. One on a CCS vehicle and the other on a Tesla now that both vehicles would have a choice of using either superchargers with magic dock or other CCS chargers. Which one will each vehicle choose to use depending on proximity vs reliability vs charging speed? It would be an awesome race to see which one wins. What does everyone out there reading this think? Is it something you would like to see?
My 2 favorite EV experts. Keep it up
Imagine what ICE drivers would feel as they drive up to 6 gas pumps and 4 do not work, public would be totally outraged!
It has happened to me but there were more gas stations just down the street.
They wouldn’t be outraged. They would buy EVs.
Thank you
Excellent
Please do more with Kyle like this.
Very good video
Seems to me that in order to to keep the stations running there needs to be more service techs. That's the problem I have run into. Perhaps more reliable hard ware and software.
Had an interesting charging experience. Pulled into the station behind a restaurant and the charger wasn't working. It was about 5a and freezing cold outside. After several phone calls they said they would have maintenance check it out.
By that time the restaurant was open and I went inside. When I went out I could see the screen on the station lit up, so I rushed over and started charging. Took an hour and 20 minutes to start charging.
Some of those stations have been replaced with both Chademo and SAE, having been strictly Chademo.
Like Beta and VHS for those who remember.
There's a presidential executive order reaffirmed by several administrations that directs federal agencies to prefer commercial/industrial standards, and the order requires federal government agencies, where appropriate, to adopt them. Expecting the federal government to mandate charging standards is contrary to the way technical standards work--historically and currently--in this country.
Missed this one. Love to see you all thinking no one will switch to NACS 6 months ago. Here we are with many manufacturers jumping on board with NACS. Here’s hoping the rest of the dominos will fall. Kyle has been influencing hard to get other manufacturers on board and I greatly appreciate you both advocating the reliability of Superchargers.
Yeah, we get it wrong sometimes for sure! I don't think anyone saw this coming before Ford dropped the bomb.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I felt the same way as you and Kyle at the time; that it was too late and the legacy automakers would ignore Tesla’s offer (as they had done before when they tried to propose something like this). I think the videos and influence that you both have in the market were probably some of the factors that may have led to these decisions. I hope so at least. You all put out great content. I am writing some Tesla road trips tips for our local Tesla owners club and citing you and Kyle among others as people I have learned so much from. I started reading and following your content back in 2017 when I dipped my toe into the EV space with a used i3 and your videos and articles were very helpful back then. I really appreciate all the great work you all are doing!
Kempower. They work everytime, at least here in Norway.
Another post full of good information, as always. But I have to disagree that CCS type 2, would be preferable in North America. CCS type 2 advantage is a higher AC charging rate of 43 kW. Which was never adopted by most electric automotive manufacturers. So Europe has type 1 and type 2 vehicles which just makes things more complicated, with little to no benefit.
Or that CCS type 2 is used for commercial vehicles in North America? There is an MCS and a Megacharger standard, North America for commercial vehicles. I just hope one of them becomes the universal standard, for commercial vehicles.
My true hero’s in one garage put me on overload
I would guess that it took awhile before we had a universal standard for the gas pump nozzle and vehicle tank receptacles worked out.
Always great content like both of your guys channels believe it or not state of fast charging in Canada way worse than the US and we don’t even get the super charger net work.
Good stuff Tom. I was hoping for some pizza footage but good stuff nonetheless. #stateofchar
Tom I want your jacket
You can order one here: stores.orvis.com/us/vermont/manchester
I live on the East Coast and have only charged at Electrify America and EVGo and I have yet to have an issue, but I also only use them a couple times every few months. I would not want to rely solely on fast chargers, including Tesla, to do most of my charging and yet to have had an issue at home.
There's one charger you are missing on your Wall of Chargers 😊 - Siemens Versicharge VC30GRYU. I always wondered how come you didn't ever review it. I have one at home and been using it hardwired since 2016. And it's amazing built quality and the cable is IMO even better than the Chargepoint Home Flex. Review it!!! I believe they have a new version now too. 🎉🎉
I do have the new one in my garage. I'll get to it in the coming months.
I think when you have a choice of what fuel you choose at the pump. There are at least 3 choices and starting to see Diesel too. Well we see 3 hoses or more coming from the pump. So what's wrong with having a choice of a connection. You can make it for Tesla and other types on the charger.
plugshare rates chargers so i don't understand the rate your charge tweeter feed. What's the diff?
I was wondering if it is better for the battery to charge to a higher state of charge before a trip or plan on DC fast charging?
Kyle drives in a weekend what Tom drove in 4yrs 😂😂
❤❤
Can you please talk about WiTricity and their wireless EV charger?
I think the magic dock is a transition before Tesla switches to V$.
Hey Tom, I just purchase a 2023 model Y and I would like to know which is the best charger to get; rated for 30-40amps
Get a Tesla Wall Connector. You can de-rate to deliver less than 48-amps if you prefer.
Tom, does the NACS adapter allow for 2 way flow? Home integration like the Lightning seems to be very promising for the future and wondering if perhaps the current Tesla adapter is capable or not. Not trolling, just wondering if that might be one reason NACS won’t be the standard going forward?
because Tesla wants you to buy Powerwall
I love the old "I'm a Libertarian until it inconveniences me" bit.
Good point. I'm not against regulation per se, government plays an important role and needs to step in to protect the public often. But with something like this, mandating a certain type of plug, I think it's wise to think that through carefully because the unintended consequences could end up hurting everyone.
Codifying a standard (such as as DC fast charging) limits technological advancement.... But without standards, adoption is limited....
FWIW, Evening Libertarian believe in the usefulness of government standards, such as STOP signs.... When transactional costs are too high, for a free market option to be effective....
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney That's fair. Good point. BTW, you've been very helpful to me in deciding whether or not to go full EV for my next vehicle. Also, the only car my wife ever owned that she cried upon trading in was her CRX Si. No nitrous though!
What do you think of the State of California rumored to mandate a screen on all Chargers(Tesla)for pay at-the-pump ability.
That's not a new requirement, BTW. California announced they were going to require it years ago - at least 3 years ago, perhaps longer. So the companies making charging equipment knew this was coming.
I hope that it never happens because I believe that Tesla’s chargers are reliable because of their simplicity and there are fewer things to get vandalized.
why so unnecessary
I'm thinking about an EV in the next couple of years, and I live somewhere where chargers aren't the most frequent. I'm concerned about ease of use and the personal safety of pulling up to some random charger in a sketchy location, at least on roadtrips. Should I even consider a non-Tesla?
Umm, NO! Along with the vast differences in NACS performance, convenience, & reliability vs the VW “designed to be brain dead” penitence CCS, what about the materials & maintenance cost advantages afforded by the well thought out & elegant design of the former vs the clearly hobbled, latter? Iotw, will superior design & engineering ever be given precedence over the economically dominant? E.g., Falcon/Starship vs Vulcan/Artemis?
If you can charge at home and don’t take extremely long road trips, a non-Tesla might be okay. If you plan on DC fast charging often, and/or will be taking long road trips, Tesla is the clear winner. Not to mention, Tesla cars are quite awesome as well.
Everything is all well and good and well said by you all but here is the biggest problem it's not lvl 2 or dc fast charge the problem is the usa grid the grid it self is built back in the ww2 area with very little infrastructure improvements
Re: Worst Given Dominion Over Best. Along with the vast differences in NACS performance, convenience, & reliability vs the VW “designed to be brain dead” penitence CCS, what about the materials & maintenance cost advantages afforded by the well thought out & elegant design of the former vs the clearly hobbled, latter? Iotw, will superior design & engineering ever be given precedence over the economically dominant? E.g., Falcon/Starship vs Vulcan/Artemis?
I think a declaration needs to happen for a single plug standard to lay the groundwork in the US like they did in Europe. Otherwise we are going to be in a mess for a while. Reliability has to improve, more chargers have to be deployed... And we need to start to see EV drivers treated with the same conveniences that gas cars get. Covered parking, services, bathrooms, shopping, food.... It isn't like we invented something "new" by changing vehicles to electric. The basic premise is the same and how we use them has not really changed.
Sensible regulation in the US, such as creating a universal DC charging standard, is often impossible to pass..... Due to the cult like status, that individual freedom is paramount....
@@nc3826 I fully support individual freedom. Freedom isn't what is blocking a public standard. It is big money. The cult of sensible regulation rarely is sensible and rarely understands boundaries. There are always dogs in the hunt with a stake and it rarely is for the benefit of the people.
Tesla has the first mover advantage. They have the largest installed based of chargers in the US. That gives them a place at the table with more influence than the rest. It would actually affect fewer cars in the US if the NACS standard was made the default standard. If one were to use those as metrics for making a standard today Tesla would and should win the contest. But that is going to change.
However making adapters to use both CCS and NACS should be easy enough and affordable. Clearly someone set standards for lots of other things like roads, bridges, road signs, electrical code, and many other things. When you need building supplies or various other things there are generally standards for many items to make the task much easier. Eventually there was a consensus to make something a standard.
As momentum picks up for other manufacturers and they manage to produce more vehicles the first mover advantage is going to be lost at Tesla as there will eventually be more CCS cars on the road than Teslas. That is still a few years out given the supply chain issues and problems with ramping up manufacturing. At that point it should become more obvious that it may make more sense for Tesla to fall in line.
That is a few years out. In the mean time Tesla has only agreed to open up 7500 chargers to CCS cars. This ensures they keep their advantage for as long as possible. Tesla is nothing if not practical when it comes to manufacturing and cost reductions. Once the dollars and cents on the ledger say a change is needed they will do it. That looks like it will be a while when it comes to this charging standard.
I think there is some misunderstanding on what happened in Europe with Tesla. Tesla never used the NACS in Europe. It is only capable to deliver 1-phase AC but in Europe high power AC is mostly 3-phase, and therefore they moved to type 2 using it with AC but also in DC. Yes, type 2 allows to use it for DC, but the max rating is pretty low. I think 120kW was the max a Model S was doing in Europe. So they had to move to a higher current capable plug for the Model 3 and later, so they moved to CCS2.
Yes in Europe CCS2 is mandatory for public charging infrastructure, but the Tesla SuC network wasn’t till lately a public network, so they hadn’t to move to CCS2, they simply choose to.
@@Longsnowsm Thank you for proving my point for me.... human beings need simple emotional excuses, such as blaming the problem on...big money.... big corporations.... big government.... When the real problem is All of us..... Like it or not standards by definition limit freedom.... No matter how much we want to rationalize that uncomfortable fact away.... But if you can't see it from that perspective that's fine too...
FWIW, NACS Is a BS marketing term by Elon.... So this is about the Tesla standard versus the CCS standard... But on the rest of the points that you made in your comment I tend to agree with what you are saying....
Let's just pick a universal standard and get on with it..... Since A universal standard will make everything far more efficient.... It will just take longer In the US, since it won't be defined by a top down Universal government edict....instead we'll be indirectly pushed in that direction by government actions such as the IRA.... to paraphrase Winston Churchill, Americans will always do the right thing...... but only after they have tried everything else....
@@e-redj nobody was talking about...Tesla's made up North American standard being used in Europe.... It was about CCS2 being mandated as the standard in Europe..... Just like CCS should be the standard in the US.....
I'm sorry you got so confused...... Have a nice day....
With apologies to Andrew Tanembaum, I love charger plug stands because there are so many of them.
So, why do EA electrify america put 2 CCS chargers on one post when you can where you clearly can only fit 1 car? Is it in case one of the plugs breaks, or what? The system only lets you use one or the other even if you can get another car there (like if the one next to it is broken). Why?
For a few reasons.
1) Because the location of the charge ports isn't standard and are located on both sides of the cars.
2) As you mentioned redundancy if one isn't working
3) in case someone blocks the station with a gas car, you could potentially park in the next stall and use the cable on that side to reach your EV
That said, the new generation on EA chargers have only one cable and it's longer, eliminating those concerns.
I'm still confused how current going through a Tesla copper wire works better than current through a CCS copper wire.
Duh, that's because it uses a tesla coil.
Since DC fast charging is more harmful to the battery pack, would it not make sense in places w/ plenty of parking space to add the option for L2 charging? Thinking malls, national parks, etc. where folks will be spending more than 1-2 hrs away from the vehicle and don't need 15-30min charge-up.
More L2 charging options would be great to have.... But it would mostly help EV owners, that do not have a home chargIng option....
The only true safer alternative to DC fast charging, is batteries swapping.....
For road trippers, the single place where more L2 charging would have the most bang for the buck, I think, is hotels. In a future world where most cars are EV, hotels might need chargers in as much as 30-40% of their parking spots.
National parks, I think, better serves the EV community with DC faster chargers at visitor centers than level 2 charging at trailheads, mostly because it makes parking management at congested trailheads easier, while also avoiding the need to run miles and miles of new power lines to trailheads that currently have no electricity supply, just to run car chargers.
Visitor centers, on the other hand, the 20 minutes that people typically take to go in, use the restroom, and browse the gift shop, is perfect for DC fast charging. And a charger there helps people reach all trailheads, not just one, plus it's high capacity, since people get in and out fast. Also, given that people don't visit national parks all that often, the impact of a single fast charge on the battery pack during a single park visit is negligible.
We have Volta L2 chargers here in Texas at Malls and movie theaters….they work every time. We need more.
I don't think magic dock is game over for NACS. If they work with manufacturers that adopt NACS, having access to ALL supercharger stations, not just the miniscule few with magic dock is still a selling point.
By the end of the decade, the non-Magic-Dock Superchargers will be in the minority
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I thought I read that a relatively small number would be retrofitted and the majority of new Tesla CCS output would be destination chargers, not SCs. Are all V4's confirmed to have magic dock? I haven't read that!
@DblOSmith Initially, and that's the current sites, wait until Telsa starts installing its V4 sites all, or mostly all, with Magic Dock
IMHO, look at the simplicity of the Tesla dispensers. No video screen, no card reader, no buttons. Also if we can have reliable gasoline dispensers, I see no reason for lack of reliable electricity dispensers.
Canada had legal issues up until recently that made chargers forced to bill by the minute rather than by the kWh which made charging a nightmare. Plug a bolt in to a 350kw charger and getting 50kw? Yep, you're paying 7 times the amount for your power and it would be way cheaper just to run gas.
Plugging my little PHEV in to public level 2 charging makes no sense because they are usually 7.6kw but I have a 3.3kw onboard charger. If I stop for lunch I could get a few dozen extra km of EV range but instead it's just gas and park instead.
Government ruins everything.
I whish all Countrys could agree to more common standards. Of cause Plugs and charging standards but than hopefully much more.Perhaps standars of behavior to people and environment and among each other.
Who would've thought Kyle was that much taller than Tom?
Kyle is taller than he looks in his videos. I'm not tall, I'm 5'8" so not really short either, but he is tall.
Mohamed Haki
قبل 4 أيام
Welcome, my friend, I am one of your followers. I follow you from my country, Iraq
Because of you, I will buy a Ford Lightning. I was just wondering about an issue that you did not address in your full explanation.
I am in Iraq. We have electricity, the voltage difference is 220-380, the fluctuation is 50 hertz
How to connect a Ford charger of the first or second level
Can it operate at 50 frequencies?
I wish you would send me a letter explaining the issue to me
You have all my thanks and respect
The CCS is a big ass adapter which I hate. The Tesla connector the NACS is far smaller and superior and should be the standard since there are more Tesla in the USA than any other EV….Damn government should be mandating anything they are tech Luddites.
If Tesla fully opens its network, there’s no need for “government” (by which you mean, of course, democracy) to step in and protect us. So, this is 100% on Tesla
Aptera will use the "NACS," for what it's worth.
Yeah, but that's *if* they make it to production, and that's far from guaranteed. Plus, it's not even a car, it's classified as a motorcycle because it only had 3 wheels.
Because it's kinda bread and butter for Tesla to maintain their chargers especially with their proprietary charging port design.
in my opinion, there is more than enough space for CCS1 and the NACS on the 3 and Y, this could have been easy from the start
Should gas stations be required to provide chargers? Seems like part of the solution
Why is it EA has that pathetic CCS plug and do not change, I mean really they could improve site reliability by likely 30% improvement just changing to a much better CCS plug with serviceable temperature sensors and more robust latch! OK EA now your chance to show you really can d this, improve your reliability and yes that to you too Electrified Canada (although the same core company just the Canadian branch of EA)!
I don't think it was helpful for the EU to force Tesla into the CCS standard, just like I don't think it is helpful for the US to force any company to conform to any specific form factor. The CCS connector is clunky, and this type of standard stifles innovation and progress. Everyone who bought a Tesla gets to deal with a clunky CCS instead of the Tesla connector, and that sucks for them. And IMO, they should be able to pay a premium for a better experience if they want to. EU lessened the charging experience for Tesla buyers in exchange for the "greater good". So tired of this type of mindset.
Tesla didn't use the US connector in Europe from the start.
The first model S cars were equipped with a modified type 2 connector, the US connector limits EU charging to 7,4 kw, the type 2 is limited to 22 kw (ac charging).
The modification was that the socket is slightly deeper, and the supercharger plug is slightly longer preventing a normal car from plugging in.
I personally think Tesla chose to fit ccs starting with model 3 so those cars are also able to charge at regular fast chargers.
Even as a Libertarian I can still see the value of standards, such as Stop signs.... IE the perfect is the enemy of the good.....
It is strange that this eludes dogmatic fanboys....
@@sciencetestsubject And EU tesla owners were worse off as a result.
@@nc3826 Tesla had a closed ecosystem with its own supercharging network. This is nothing like stop signs, which by definition MUST be properly interpreted by anyone using public roads. If you are suggesting that I am a fanboy, you are incorrect. I am just observing the ergonomic and technical superiority of the Tesla connector over the alternatives available right now. It is an objectively better connector, just like the supercharger experience for Tesla is objectively better for its users.
It isn't like the SAE came up with the CCS/J1772 connector out of thin air. They just chose to use this connector rather than Tesla's because it predated the Tesla connector. They could have updated to Tesla's as the standard, but chose not to for various reasons. That doesn't make CCS the better choice.
As a libertarian, I bet you can appreciate a consumer's choice to use the product you think is best, and you should be appalled by our government's effort to interfere with any choices like this. Tesla marketed exclusivity to those who were willing to pay for it, and the government is coercing (softly...) in the name of equity for all EV owners.
@@MBergyman The Stop sign reference was about the role that Standards play .... It was not a direct reference about Tesla.... I'm sorry for confusing you.... FWIW, I agree with much of what you're saying... (except CCS and the Tesla standard came out within the same year.... Europe didn't push Tesla to adopt CCS until years later.... If Tesla would have fully opened up its ecosystem, it would have had a chance to become a standard)
But my first counterpoint is that the perfect is the enemy of the good..... CCS is the standard in Europe, And CCS offers higher voltage DC chargers than Tesla currently offers.... I have not heard of anybody in Europe stop using EVs, because of the clunky CCS DC charging experience?
Tell Elon to stop begging for government money and he can keep his closed ecosystem, without any excessive government coercion.... Which is fine, but government money should only go to an open ecosystem based on a Universal standard. OR at least get close to that standard. The Magic Dock is a step in the right direction. But it should go much further, the second class experience, that's being currently offered to CCS owners Is not sufficient, IMHO.
This is about Elon I'm trying to manipulate the system to get government money. This is not about choice.
Tesla home batteries are not the most popular for home....way too expensive and not as powerful for what you get.
I 100% don’t think the US should force a connector like the EU did. But what they are doing is putting money behind the CCS connector. To get the NEVI funding you need to install CCS connectors. Those are the only chargers that can get funding. If you also have a Tesla or a CHAdeMO connector, that fine, but there isn’t funding for separate chargers.
Money will drive the push for CCS and in the next several years Tesla will switch to CCS in the US fully.
It is not a mystery why Tesla Superchargers are far more reliable: Like Apple, Tesla controls the whole ecosystem - the car, the charger, the software. It just works. But DC fast charging relies on the highly fungible J1772/CCS standard that is implemented by every manufacturer slightly differently. This leads to all kinds of interface issues. Gotta give this video a thumbs-down for the failure to make ANY mention of this simple reality during the video.
Yea, the government should ban better technology.
Yea, the government should ban pointless trolling comments.
You're really pulling out all the stops criticizing Tesla. Only 99% reliability. You were able to report 5 problems (over how long? Geographical locations? Time for Tesla to redpond/repair?)
What a truckload of subjective FUD and hype. I used to respect you, but no more.
Enjoy your Kool-Aid and have a nice day fanboy....
I owned two tesla Model 3s over 3.5 years and drove them a collective 48,000 miles. There were only 2 occasions when I plugged into a Supercharger and it didn't work so I had to move over to another stall. I don't have the exact number of times that I did charge at Superchargers but it probably wasn't 200 so my 99% claim is most likely not exactly correct. I bet I charged between 80 and 100 times, though, so the success rate was most likely closer to 97% to 98%.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney With all due respect, Tom you just encourage trolling by trying to justify yourself to baseless unjustified comments... the facts that you present, is the only justification that you need, IMHO....