@@TheRealPaul_Morphy it works fine but can definitely be improved upon. If we got some sort of bullet board to see all the players looking for groups it would clean up all the spam in world chats
I mean they made classic, TBC and wotlk. everyone can agree that those are some of the most timeless games blizzard has developed. If they would just take the communities feedback and everyone would vote on changes. The game would be much more appealing since the community can have power in the way classic+ gets developed
Considering WOW is still the king of mmos , they've made a timeless legendary and age old successful franchise with multiple award winning games each containing millions of players. They have servers for the old expansions and vanilla wow that house tons of players and they are STILL going ! Not to forget warcraft 3 one of the best strategy games and the Lost Vikings was also made by blizzard i would say YES they clearly CAN make a good game 😂 and for you to even ask that makes me question your sanity. You clearly are just a hater and attention seeker Everyone loves to praise FF online but are too stupid to realise. They copy from WOW and learn from Wow Same as guildwars they only exist because WOW paved the way. Sure games came before wow and wow takes inspiration but NO game as done what WOW has done and none of them have been as big. So you need to get a tissue wipe away your salty tears because Wow is here to stay
@@bodidharma1148 i think people do know what they want, plenty of players are asking for similar things. if we voted on changes and only the ones that pass with 70% there’s a big chance it’s a positive change for the game look at the success of OSRS
I'd be wary of a 70% threshold. Remember, the majority of players wanted all the changes WoW went through over the years. If you don't have some sort of guiding vision leading the dev team toward a classic design goal then the lowest common denominator will vote us back in to dual specs, massive inventories, and free teleports all over the map for "convenience" even if these system were intentionally designed this way to achieve a goal. If we went through with polling I'd want a ridiculous threshold like 90% so only the very few literal unanimous ideas slip through and people disguising their selfish desires under the guise of "Quality of Life" or "Accessibility" would be hopefully left out in the cold. (I'm still not sold on the polling idea however) Honestly, just hire Kevin Jordan for consulting when he's not working on his current game.
That's a great question, I think they should remain unique to each faction. If they were to add them for both factions they would have to keep something unique to make players want to play alliance. maybe add a certain totem only alliance can use and horde players would get some alternative.
You have some decent takes but I would disagree with you on most points about adding things to the game and re-balancing things. New race/class combinations could end one of classics biggest hurting points which is faction balance and new class (if done correctly) could reduce the amount of try hard stacking the most OP thing in raids/pvp while giving more value to other classes. Flying mounts and teleporting to dungeons obviously bad ideas and I think most of the player base would agree on that. A lot of classes in classic are seen as unplayable (like ret or boomkin for example), to just make those support specs would ruin the class for a lot of players more and like we have seen with SoD those classes require some major overhauls to even start to compare to the top classes of classic. Look at shamans in TBC for the Alliance, it was one of the least played classes because all it did was bring buffs for other classes and very few people enjoyed the play style of it. Meanwhile in SoD Shamans have got a significant overhaul on their abilities and they are an extremely popular class instead. Clearly the player base prefers these types of changes and would probably vote in favor of keeping them. Additionally Alliance and Horde have always heavily leaned in one direction for PvP and PvE content, making more race/class combos would even that line and allow more people to simply play the faction they want instead of having to base it off the type of content they like. Additionally it would solve a lot of complaining in PvP (which again we have seen in SoD) just by giving the game more balance. Clearly Blizzard struggles with balancing two classes together and a much more reasonable way to do this is by giving both factions access to every class. The classic experience isn't about leveling, the nostalgic experience is. The "Classic" experience is about huge moments of community in world PvP, downing bosses, social events like AQ stuff, and so on. Most of which involve being cap level, so why not make a fast track to that experience that so many people ask for? It worked fine in SoD because nobody wanted to level, they just wanted to hit cap and play with their friends. If blizzard puts out new content they aren't going to want to level in Elwynn Forest, they are going to want to experience that new content with their guild/friends. Leveling is appealing to some and maybe the option could be given to slowly level through the original classic experience but I don't think thats on a majority of peoples minds over new content thats been requested for 20 years.
I was referring to how everyone copies what the top players are doing. For example with dual spec everyone will eventually just follow the meta. all hybrids will have a healer off spec, tank classes with a tank spec, and if you have a stronger AoE spec you'll spec into that for trash and a single target spec for bosses.
@@xJurpithe talents aren’t versatile enough to allow that style of play like retail. Also most fights in Classic are tank and spank with the adds taken away from the boss. There is always going to be a meta and people will always look at the top players to mimic. But just because you copy a talent tree doesn’t mean you copy the skill level too
it makes a huge difference if you are struggling on a fight and you 6 heal it vs having just 5 healers.. it has nothing to do with skill, playing the better spec will make the player with the same skill do more dps or hps depending on the encounter the talents are very versatile you can see this happening right now in SoD. people swap all the time depending on the fights
@@xJurpi well for one, people swap runes not talents when It comes to AoE vs Single target. Additionally, role changing isn’t a bad thing at all. If a team requires an extra healer vs a dps to be successful then they are adapting the their team capabilities to achieve success. That’s literally been the fundamental of Raiding in WoW since Vanilla. This is why Heat Levels are very positive because you can gauge the difficulty of the content at the beginning rather than just have one flat difficulty that only adheres to elite players.
@@andrew2616 players are definitely also swapping specs for Sulfuron and Majordomo. For example mages will spec into blast wave just for those AoE fights since it has no real use on any other encounters. Changing roles is not fun. It was not ever a thing in classic unless you had hybrid specs in the raid. if you had an ele sham for sapphiron you were making them heal for progression weeks. not re specing mid raid for just one encounter.. It forces an unrealistic dynamic in raids. I remember having to heal on certain fights as a mage healer and that would have never happened if dual spec wasn't added. If I sign up as DPS I want to DPS. If I sign up to heal on my pally I want to heal not play DPS.
@@xJurpi but that already exists. On Turtle WoW. F2Play btw. No bots. No GDKP. No bm in world chat (moderated) and discord (24/7 GMs) and they actually add up new content. Genuine and vanilla spirit preserved. Dunno why'd you wanna pay to the company other than donating to Turtle WoW.
@@a.f.7650 Not too interested in some of the things Turtle wow has, not to mention i dont wanna spend my time playing a server than could get shut down one day and I lose all my characters
I only hope that when it does come one day, they do not add any kind of flying or instant teleporting. Anything that takes away from the open world is a big no from me.
@xJurpi I don't even want summoning stones. They encourage people being lazy and waiting for other people to get to the stones instead. If someone cannot even be bothered to get to the instance, they likely arnt invested enough to reliably run the instance (leaving at the first hint of struggle ect). I find it fosters a bad mentality.
Meme specs need to be viable. Paladins need taunt, that mana return even if toned down. SPriests need vamp touch and boomies need their mana pools not disappear in 2 casts. I don’t want to form raids with 90% warriors and mages
I agree 100% This is the only class changes I would alright with. the only problem is once you change a couple classes everyone will start to ask for changes. so you open this floodgate of ongoing tuning and such
@@xJurpi I completely get it but these specs were dead. Impossible to play outside of casual dungeon play. Especially with parsing culture being what it is. I’m not saying to make them blast, but be comparable. Ret DPS was so bad that you could give them cleave with divine storm and crusader strike and that might not even bring them into parity with most DPS. Everyone could use a touch up and to some degree I believe them in those interview when they said they were intentionally pushing the limits. Everyone could use QoL improvements. My point was there had to be a minimum change to correct classes that are just completely undesirable. On a positive I think the adjusted tier in SoD was a HUGE W. Even further I think the .5 Gear was an amazing success. If anything they should mitigate the gold cost for it so those who dungeon spam have something to strive for. and personally? There needs to be a scarlet raid that lets you cleanse the corrupted ashbringer into a legendary. lol
@@theduncanthetank Exactly! I want to see more spec diversity in raids. not just stacking warriors. Yes please blizz finish the ashbringer! that would be a great idea to introduce the Scarlet raid!
I don't understand your point about a "trickle-down effect" relating to raiding and dual talent specialisation. What exactly is the problem here? Personally, the only problem I have with dual spec is the fact that you can swap whenever and wherever you want. It was very boring to see every rogue in WotLK naxx with a single target dps spec and an aoe spec in naxxramas, and they're swapping between them after/before every boss. I think it's much more in the spirit of classic, if you have access to only one talent spec at any time. This incentivises good preparation, you roll with what you got, and you can't really change it midway through a raid. A great advantage of dual spec, is the two separate action bar setups that you get with it. Imo this is something that should be a separate feature though, and I'm absolutely baffled it's still not a thing in the default Blizzard UI after all these years lol.
the wotlk thing you mentioned is what i mean by the trickle-down effect. mages did this in naxx too you would go fire just for loatheb. it just became the meta for healers to have a dps spec for certain fights, and same for tanks. YES, they need this added. Having to re set up your new action bar after respecing is so cumbersome
As someone who also plays Runescape. This would being me back. We got Old School Runeacape where it was "classic" but players got to vote on new updates. It lead to OSRS having it's own unique content, and zones. It now has more players then Runeacape 3 (Retail) and is included with our Runeacape 3 membership. Blizzard can ABSOLUTELY do this. They already copied the rest of the idea 🤣 Also, dual clas is absolutely nice for not needing an army of alts. If I could swap freely for like 10g, I'd have no problems.
I know its boring to give criticism without solution but the sad reality is the players do not know what they want. All players really have is the "feelings" they get from the game and they can't always correctly lock down where those come from. Players would ultimately make another retail because "why you like wow is not why I like wow" and mass opinion is too diluted and inaccurate to give anyone what they want.
This is probably one of the best comments i've gotten so far. With more topics to vote on the community would be very split and some things would just never make it into the game. (70% in favor) Certain things like instant mail seems to be simple change that most players want so maybe start with polling the small things and work our way up
The biggest problem with classic+ is that classic is simply an inferior version of the TBC client. The tiny improvements to the game even before outlands would be welcome. Things like questhub in dustwallow and swamp of sorrows or even blood elves and draenei bringing horde and alliance equilibrium. Not saying that the last 2 are needed, but the improved talent trees + minor questlines would be great . Another problem for classic wow is that its done. People played it, classic should move to a seasonal system where leveling is faster but changes are introduced like sod did.
I'm open minded to most of these changes. classic might be done but players seem to constantly ask for a fresh server and do it all over again. i really dont feel like classic functions as a seasonal server. A big feedback i keep getting is it's too late and i cant catch up now since everyone's multiple phases ahead of me, rather than just one infinite timeline rather than a set end date
I think WillE put it best when it comes to a poll system, it would work, but there lies the problem of being careful with what questions you ask your players, "There are some things you just shouldnt ask". Flying being one of those things, so in this case, yes to polling the community, but you bet your butt that if they put flying as a question on the poll, a tone of people will vote yes, and potentially destroy the classic feeling in the process
If that question was to ever get polled, it wouldn't pass. I highly doubt 70% of the players want flying mounts in classic Some opinions a lot of players seem to share.
It is to some degree, a true classic+ wouldn't be a seasonal server. it would be more similar to the way OSRS does it, the server continues to add updates and changes to the world developing into a complete different game
@@xJurpi So... SoD was classic... with.. updates... ? Tbf; I hope blizzard doesn't even thing about it. All players are already split up into so many versions... classic, cata classic, classic HC, SoD and Retail and each of those options keep feeling more and more empty.
polls suck, wrath babies will skew the results and just make it wotlk. vanilla players should have more weight imo, if a bunch of retail players vote on a game version they never played, it will ruin the game
you have a good point, I was going over some data from a recent community poll and it's pretty interesting how many players do share similar thoughts on classic+ changes. I'll probably make a video soon talking about it!
So your Take on Heat levels is completely incorrect. The community was providing negative feedback towards the metrics used to define the difficulty(More Fire Resistance) rather than the difficulty itself. Had the devs just created an Easy, Medium and Hard mode that is flat regardless of Fire Resistance then things may have been more welcomed. This helps alleviate the infectious speed clearing mentality because WB/consumes can no longer make fights 20-30 seconds long. This works great for players that play casually because they can adjust to their skill level and still not miss out on the best gear. Everyone wins. I also don’t agree with the community poll. This can easily be identified via player base. SoD has 79k players per logs right now and Classic Era has 17k. The player base enjoys SoD as It is. Let the players that enjoy Era stay there because they won’t like Classic + anyway due to changes and Let those that enjoy SoD have a legitimate Classic + that is enjoyable to them. Everyone wins.
If difficulties got added into a poll, would the community vote in favor of it passing with 70% of the player base? I highly doubt it. the community has been VERY split on this topic. difficulties have always split up players and it will continue to. there's no place for it in classic, if you want harder content go play something else. If the players were really enjoying SoD each phase wouldn't have had a incredible drop off ironforge.pro/population/sod/overall/ I keep hearing more and more complaints about SoD rather than positive things supporting the changes. P1 Peaked at 500k, P2 Peaked at 327k, P3 Peaked at 182k, & P4 is sitting at around 79k Meanwhile if you look at cata it's sitting at around 200k, so is cata more enjoyable? This also doesn't account for players that aren't playing classic at all.
@@xJurpi When you analyze data you gotta look at more than just “people don’t play the game anymore so It must suck” mindset. P1 was perfect because leveling was easy and at the same time it allowed people to gauge if SoD was for them or not just like people do with any other game. P2 fell off for two reason: Classic leveling and Gnomergan being too difficult. That’s why the leveling buff introduced because classic leveling is one of the worst experience of classic, especially for those that have RL jobs, families and outside responsibilities where you can’t spend 4-5 hours a day in a video game. P3 fell off due to new competition of games, Mist of Pandaria remix, Classic Cata, War Within Pre patch (soon Expansion release) and Final Fantasy 14 new expansion took a lot of players. Even still classic has grown from 20k at the start to 79k in week three. P4 is massively successful as of now. You have to be sure when you analyze any data that you don’t fall into what all these other streamers are doing and just seeing a decrease in the player base. As for the Classic Cata comment, yes 200k players are playing It so yes It is enjoyable to those 200k players. Some of those players used to play SoD and swapped over. That’s ok because that’s more what they enjoy. Nonetheless, the real comparison should be Classic era vs SoD because those are going to be the baseline benchmarks for what Classic + will look like and its drastically in favorable of SoD due to the player base. Lastly, everyone makes noise when It comes to negativity. It’s a fact of life that people pay attention to negative things rather than positive things. There are tons of positive things about SoD but hardly any videos about It because Classic + coming out people are focusing more on that and finishing out the seasonal. Talk to the player base and you will find out.
regardless of what you think, most people do not like SoD, they quit and will never come back. using it as a reference for classic + is a joke. If polls were added most of the things that made players quit SoD would have never been added into the game. The community is very split on almost everything blizzard has mindless added into the game. it's legit just retail minus all the automated stuff.
@@xJurpi You are literally just regurgitating what all the streamers that hate SoD say. The numbers of the population speak for itself, if SoD, as seasonal server and classic beta, was such a failure that you say It is then It would have the same numbers as SoM which was roughly 2-3k but It doesn’t It has over triple the amount of Classic Era. People like SoD and those that quit were probably going to quit anyway. There are a lot of games out there that garner peoples attention. The community isn’t really split at all. It’s pretty straight forward. 79k that play SoD are for the changes and the majority of 17k that player Era (and take into account some Era players play SoD) don’t want changes. The Era community will always have classic era. Classic + needs massive changes and SoD delivers that. We saw the results of the community polls when Stormrend was released into Classic Era. 3.6k poll voters spoke for 17k players of which some probably never raided at high end game at all. They simply wanted the raiders to pay for a second account and level up a horde priest or engineer to MC in Barrens (which still happens) rather than Stormrend. The poll failed. It may work for other games but definitely not WoW.
It's insane how much classic players just want to play the same exact game with a new looking tank-and-spank boss to zug zug while it stands there and does it's one mechanic. Idk why you guys even get excited for hype around classic+ when you're so quick to be against super small changes like dual spec or QOL changes and think things like "instant mail" need to be voted on. I get being against ruining the spirit of classic, but lol.
That's why classic was so popular! The raids are fun, harder doesn't equal fun. You can grab a beer and just game with the boys. The poll was just an example of small changes that most players would vote on. 70% of the players would agree on instant mail. It would be egregious to try and add bigger changes right off the bat.
@@xJurpi There's nothing wrong with that, that wasn't my point. I was just memeing a bit and I agree that is why it was popular and that should remain mostly the same if not exactly the same -- the point was how resistant to any change, even good QOL features, some ppl are. Like for example, if you're opposed to incremental tuning, you would probably be opposed to normalized ability scaling (bc that's basically the precursor to small tuning patches), like they've done with most abilities in SOD, which is a pretty big change, but one that makes sense...that's just being resistant for the sake of it imo. Classic was popular because it was the best MMO at the time in 2004. It's still decently popular, but just as a point of comparison, a SOD patch will, at its peak, be equiv to a retail patch, participation-wise, like the 2-3 months before a new retail patch when very few people are playing...not saying either is better...they're literally different games imo, but that's the numbers. TLDR, people can like what they like, but opposing certain things, like really basic tuning or stat normalization, which would be a pretty big benefit bc Blizzard has never gotten class tuning spot on from the get go, just seems contrarian, at least to me. The whole point of Classic+, from my perspective, is to iterate on a version of the game that a lot of people really enjoy/ed, making it better while keeping the spirit of the game -- a lot of things, like dual spec, instant mail, normalizing spells and stats (not rage generation -- I get that's integral to how classic worked), worlds buff reduction or outright removal to make classes more self-sufficient, giving pets/totems the retail treatment with passive avoidance buffs to avoid them randomly flopping mid-encounter (No one likes the way this worked in classic. If you do, you're a masochist), might be larger changes, but they don't change how people interact with those systems in a meaningfully negative way, quite the opposite, and imo do not threaten the spirit of the game. Who tf thinks it's a great feature that your hunter/warlock pet dies randomly to air mid-encounter or that your fire res totem randomly dies to air and causes wipes that waste your time? These are things that are things of the past and shouldn't have existed to begin with...they're not features lol, they're more akin to bugs. It's like complaining about how the community received the MC heat levels -- did this really change the way a player interacted with the raid? If you don't want to do it, you can just do normal/level 1....it does nothing (from what I know). There is always going to be FOMO in MMOs and the lower caliber players will always complain about FOMO from difficulty levels, but I think they did a good job slightly rewarding players who want to do harder content(I'd argue barely rewarding them), while not making it a necessary requirement because the best gear is only obtained in heat III. Players doing that got very small bonuses (Maybe in a month they will be half a lockout ahead in gear or a single full lockout worth of gear and a fiery looking weapon). This doesn't make logical, non-brain-rotted players feel like they're missing out much(If it did, those ppl have issues and should just get better at the game). One can either spend a lot of time and gold farming res gear or not and get 99% of what those guys are(no fiery weapon =-( is the only thing as eventually everyone will be full BIS) with much less effort...the best of both worlds. These are non-issues...you have ppl complaining about this while there's actually portions of the game literally broken, like pvp =/, and the only realistic resolution to fix this is the implementation of pvp aura modifiers, but god forbid Blizz even flirt with that and Classic Andys will lose their shit. TLDR, choose your battles. Srry for the rant =(
You clearly don't understand how having QoL 'improvements' completely change the way people interact in the game world. If you go out farming in the world with a pve spec on a pvp server, you would feel scared about having a pvp encounter. That would be completely gone with Dual Spec. And this is just a small example. Things like this makes the game world big and dangerous. Another argument would be how flying would ruin everything mentioned before. Going back to the trainer in the city populates the world and you see players actually running around there. Everything in vanilla wow is created with a clear intent of an oldschool mmorpg in mind. If you can't understand things like this, classic isn't for you, and you'd have a better time on retail imo. Classic+ is supposed to retain the oldschool mmorpg elements. If you don't like those, there's a version for you called Retail.
@@XFoX90 I understand how they change things, I just don't think the ones I'm referring to change things negatively -- I think the opposite. No one is out here lobbying for flying mounts or anything, lol. Take your example of Dualspec; To begin with, a good portion of people are probably using dualspec for different roles. I'd argue probably more doing that than for a pvp spec(a aspect of the game that's a complete joke…AV rankers much fun lul). Take the person who is using it for a pvp spec, the example you gave was "someone out in the world farming in a pve spec". Even with dualspec, there's a high likelihood that a person doing that is going to have a pve spec on to help them farm mobs and/or farm mobs to get to the nodes they're farming. So say someone does have a pvp dual spec and was still using a pve spec -- if someone gets the jump on them, they'll still get ganked, all it does is allow them to not get camped and give them a chance to fight back after the fact. Say it was a person who was scared and had a pvp spec, class matchups, imo, are so hardcoded in classic due to horrible tuning that I just don't think it changes much. It's like saying that the warrior out in the world farming in his pve spec would have fared better versus a balance druid who got the jump on him, kiting him indefinitely pressing Starsurge every few seconds…it wouldn't matter much imo, and a lot of matchups are that way. I don't think it matters much when there's so little out-play-ability even in slightly unfavorable matchups in classic. There's a ton of those matchups, but another notable one would be literally ANY melee vs a prot pally atm...I could care less if, when going out into the world, I'd have to assume everyone was using their most efficient builds...I would actually rather that. If anything it plays into your notion of making the world scarier. The tuning is so bad in pvp, so it's just not something I care about and I don't think most people care about a part of the game that's basically broken.
And that is kinda the reason for my original comment, that the no changes mindset is so brainrot. People don't know how to pick their battles and hills to die on… It's like a person in a room filled with noxious gas… with a gas mask on… but the gas mask goggles has a crack in it and you'll sit there complaining "this crack should be fixed" when you could just walk out of the room. It's the "no changes" mindset that has basically made PVP in SOD a part of the game that, to most players in SOD, is a completely broken part of the game and has made Blizz so chickenshit to make meaningful changes because the only real way to change it is via PVP modifiers and they know it. It's the only way to balance classes both in PVE and PVP without gutting them in either. That type of mindset has made PVP in SOD a part of the game that has had its hands tied behind its back from the start bc of how reluctant the community has made devs to implement PVP modifiers. And I'm saying this as someone who has played every version of the game, having played vanillla in '04 and on rerelease and has the ability to realize that there are some parts of classic that should have stayed dead. You're preaching to the choir about game versions. I can understand how most of what you said, flying, trainers, etc, are fine, but there are things that have to be looked at as, after a certain point, should they exist to the detriment of a player's experience? Specifically look at dualspec, I think it's stupid to ever have to be playing inefficient talents bc of some arbitrary reasoning, like a gold respec cost, or "I have to play this spec later on, so I can't play this more efficient one for dungeons now", or some arbitrary restriction "because it's always existed"…stuff like that is too restrictive. It's like covenants in shadowlands being too restrictive and there's a reason those were so badly received and will remain dead in retail, and there's a reason devs implemented dualspec in SOD and would probably see a return in any newer version of the game.
@@nikolaydutskinov5194 i used to say the same thing until seeing how much it’s changed the raiding meta for wotlk & currently in SoD just reduce the cost to respec the main reason to respec is to go and pvp
Macros & Weak Auras: discord.gg/RURtDRC98y
Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/9_kldPkb_6Y/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Jurpi
LFG chat works just fine for me. Just keep an eye on it, post your LFG, and you'll find a group eventually
@@TheRealPaul_Morphy it works fine but can definitely be improved upon. If we got some sort of bullet board to see all the players looking for groups it would clean up all the spam in world chats
Do you actually think Blizzard is able to come close to making a good game? We are about 15 years late for that
I mean they made classic, TBC and wotlk. everyone can agree that those are some of the most timeless games blizzard has developed.
If they would just take the communities feedback and everyone would vote on changes. The game would be much more appealing since the community can have power in the way classic+ gets developed
Considering WOW is still the king of mmos , they've made a timeless legendary and age old successful franchise with multiple award winning games each containing millions of players. They have servers for the old expansions and vanilla wow that house tons of players and they are STILL going ! Not to forget warcraft 3 one of the best strategy games and the Lost Vikings was also made by blizzard i would say YES they clearly CAN make a good game 😂 and for you to even ask that makes me question your sanity. You clearly are just a hater and attention seeker
Everyone loves to praise FF online but are too stupid to realise. They copy from WOW and learn from Wow Same as guildwars they only exist because WOW paved the way. Sure games came before wow and wow takes inspiration but NO game as done what WOW has done and none of them have been as big. So you need to get a tissue wipe away your salty tears because Wow is here to stay
@@xJurpipeople dont know what they want. If they listen to the community the game is gonna suck
@@bodidharma1148 i think people do know what they want, plenty of players are asking for similar things.
if we voted on changes and only the ones that pass with 70% there’s a big chance it’s a positive change for the game look at the success of OSRS
@@xJurpithe people who made those I'm sure are no longer working at Blizzard
make it so meeting stones can summon, but you have to attune to them first or something
I like that idea! I'll give my full thoughts on the next classic+ video
I'd be wary of a 70% threshold.
Remember, the majority of players wanted all the changes WoW went through over the years. If you don't have some sort of guiding vision leading the dev team toward a classic design goal then the lowest common denominator will vote us back in to dual specs, massive inventories, and free teleports all over the map for "convenience" even if these system were intentionally designed this way to achieve a goal.
If we went through with polling I'd want a ridiculous threshold like 90% so only the very few literal unanimous ideas slip through and people disguising their selfish desires under the guise of "Quality of Life" or "Accessibility" would be hopefully left out in the cold. (I'm still not sold on the polling idea however)
Honestly, just hire Kevin Jordan for consulting when he's not working on his current game.
Do you belive that Paladin and Shaman should stay as mono faction classes, or belive they should be allowed to be played by both factions?
That's a great question, I think they should remain unique to each faction.
If they were to add them for both factions they would have to keep something unique to make players want to play alliance. maybe add a certain totem only alliance can use and horde players would get some alternative.
You have some decent takes but I would disagree with you on most points about adding things to the game and re-balancing things. New race/class combinations could end one of classics biggest hurting points which is faction balance and new class (if done correctly) could reduce the amount of try hard stacking the most OP thing in raids/pvp while giving more value to other classes. Flying mounts and teleporting to dungeons obviously bad ideas and I think most of the player base would agree on that. A lot of classes in classic are seen as unplayable (like ret or boomkin for example), to just make those support specs would ruin the class for a lot of players more and like we have seen with SoD those classes require some major overhauls to even start to compare to the top classes of classic. Look at shamans in TBC for the Alliance, it was one of the least played classes because all it did was bring buffs for other classes and very few people enjoyed the play style of it. Meanwhile in SoD Shamans have got a significant overhaul on their abilities and they are an extremely popular class instead. Clearly the player base prefers these types of changes and would probably vote in favor of keeping them. Additionally Alliance and Horde have always heavily leaned in one direction for PvP and PvE content, making more race/class combos would even that line and allow more people to simply play the faction they want instead of having to base it off the type of content they like. Additionally it would solve a lot of complaining in PvP (which again we have seen in SoD) just by giving the game more balance. Clearly Blizzard struggles with balancing two classes together and a much more reasonable way to do this is by giving both factions access to every class.
The classic experience isn't about leveling, the nostalgic experience is. The "Classic" experience is about huge moments of community in world PvP, downing bosses, social events like AQ stuff, and so on. Most of which involve being cap level, so why not make a fast track to that experience that so many people ask for? It worked fine in SoD because nobody wanted to level, they just wanted to hit cap and play with their friends. If blizzard puts out new content they aren't going to want to level in Elwynn Forest, they are going to want to experience that new content with their guild/friends. Leveling is appealing to some and maybe the option could be given to slowly level through the original classic experience but I don't think thats on a majority of peoples minds over new content thats been requested for 20 years.
what does dual spec have to do with people stacking raids?
I was referring to how everyone copies what the top players are doing.
For example with dual spec everyone will eventually just follow the meta. all hybrids will have a healer off spec, tank classes with a tank spec, and if you have a stronger AoE spec you'll spec into that for trash and a single target spec for bosses.
@@xJurpithe talents aren’t versatile enough to allow that style of play like retail. Also most fights in Classic are tank and spank with the adds taken away from the boss.
There is always going to be a meta and people will always look at the top players to mimic. But just because you copy a talent tree doesn’t mean you copy the skill level too
it makes a huge difference if you are struggling on a fight and you 6 heal it vs having just 5 healers.. it has nothing to do with skill, playing the better spec will make the player with the same skill do more dps or hps depending on the encounter
the talents are very versatile you can see this happening right now in SoD. people swap all the time depending on the fights
@@xJurpi well for one, people swap runes not talents when It comes to AoE vs Single target. Additionally, role changing isn’t a bad thing at all. If a team requires an extra healer vs a dps to be successful then they are adapting the their team capabilities to achieve success. That’s literally been the fundamental of Raiding in WoW since Vanilla. This is why Heat Levels are very positive because you can gauge the difficulty of the content at the beginning rather than just have one flat difficulty that only adheres to elite players.
@@andrew2616 players are definitely also swapping specs for Sulfuron and Majordomo. For example mages will spec into blast wave just for those AoE fights since it has no real use on any other encounters.
Changing roles is not fun. It was not ever a thing in classic unless you had hybrid specs in the raid. if you had an ele sham for sapphiron you were making them heal for progression weeks. not re specing mid raid for just one encounter..
It forces an unrealistic dynamic in raids. I remember having to heal on certain fights as a mage healer and that would have never happened if dual spec wasn't added. If I sign up as DPS I want to DPS. If I sign up to heal on my pally I want to heal not play DPS.
Agree with everything, but I think Goblins for Horde and High Elfs for Alliance could be kinda neat. No new classes though
I'm open to the idea of it. Just depends on how they would implement this.
@@xJurpi but that already exists. On Turtle WoW. F2Play btw. No bots. No GDKP. No bm in world chat (moderated) and discord (24/7 GMs) and they actually add up new content. Genuine and vanilla spirit preserved. Dunno why'd you wanna pay to the company other than donating to Turtle WoW.
@@a.f.7650 Not too interested in some of the things Turtle wow has, not to mention i dont wanna spend my time playing a server than could get shut down one day and I lose all my characters
@@xJurpi ah, I guess some fiery rag testicle is much better then. Okay.
I only hope that when it does come one day, they do not add any kind of flying or instant teleporting. Anything that takes away from the open world is a big no from me.
Absolutely, no flying and no teleporting to dungeons.
I kind of want summon stones.. but I know it could mess up certain things for the open world.
@xJurpi I don't even want summoning stones. They encourage people being lazy and waiting for other people to get to the stones instead. If someone cannot even be bothered to get to the instance, they likely arnt invested enough to reliably run the instance (leaving at the first hint of struggle ect). I find it fosters a bad mentality.
Meme specs need to be viable. Paladins need taunt, that mana return even if toned down. SPriests need vamp touch and boomies need their mana pools not disappear in 2 casts.
I don’t want to form raids with 90% warriors and mages
I agree 100%
This is the only class changes I would alright with. the only problem is once you change a couple classes everyone will start to ask for changes. so you open this floodgate of ongoing tuning and such
@@xJurpi I completely get it but these specs were dead. Impossible to play outside of casual dungeon play. Especially with parsing culture being what it is. I’m not saying to make them blast, but be comparable. Ret DPS was so bad that you could give them cleave with divine storm and crusader strike and that might not even bring them into parity with most DPS.
Everyone could use a touch up and to some degree I believe them in those interview when they said they were intentionally pushing the limits. Everyone could use QoL improvements. My point was there had to be a minimum change to correct classes that are just completely undesirable.
On a positive I think the adjusted tier in SoD was a HUGE W.
Even further I think the .5 Gear was an amazing success. If anything they should mitigate the gold cost for it so those who dungeon spam have something to strive for.
and personally?
There needs to be a scarlet raid that lets you cleanse the corrupted ashbringer into a legendary. lol
@@theduncanthetank Exactly! I want to see more spec diversity in raids. not just stacking warriors.
Yes please blizz finish the ashbringer! that would be a great idea to introduce the Scarlet raid!
I don't understand your point about a "trickle-down effect" relating to raiding and dual talent specialisation. What exactly is the problem here?
Personally, the only problem I have with dual spec is the fact that you can swap whenever and wherever you want. It was very boring to see every rogue in WotLK naxx with a single target dps spec and an aoe spec in naxxramas, and they're swapping between them after/before every boss. I think it's much more in the spirit of classic, if you have access to only one talent spec at any time. This incentivises good preparation, you roll with what you got, and you can't really change it midway through a raid.
A great advantage of dual spec, is the two separate action bar setups that you get with it. Imo this is something that should be a separate feature though, and I'm absolutely baffled it's still not a thing in the default Blizzard UI after all these years lol.
the wotlk thing you mentioned is what i mean by the trickle-down effect. mages did this in naxx too you would go fire just for loatheb. it just became the meta for healers to have a dps spec for certain fights, and same for tanks.
YES, they need this added. Having to re set up your new action bar after respecing is so cumbersome
Thanks for another great video!! Hopefully blizzard will listen to the community and give everyone a fair version of classic plus ❤
I sure hope so!
As someone who also plays Runescape. This would being me back.
We got Old School Runeacape where it was "classic" but players got to vote on new updates. It lead to OSRS having it's own unique content, and zones. It now has more players then Runeacape 3 (Retail) and is included with our Runeacape 3 membership.
Blizzard can ABSOLUTELY do this. They already copied the rest of the idea 🤣
Also, dual clas is absolutely nice for not needing an army of alts. If I could swap freely for like 10g, I'd have no problems.
thank you for this refreshing comment!
Taken OSRS way of doing things, it works ye
Right! Blizzard needs to take a page out of their book
I know its boring to give criticism without solution but the sad reality is the players do not know what they want. All players really have is the "feelings" they get from the game and they can't always correctly lock down where those come from. Players would ultimately make another retail because "why you like wow is not why I like wow" and mass opinion is too diluted and inaccurate to give anyone what they want.
This is probably one of the best comments i've gotten so far.
With more topics to vote on the community would be very split and some things would just never make it into the game. (70% in favor)
Certain things like instant mail seems to be simple change that most players want so maybe start with polling the small things and work our way up
Need Tbc Sod ❤
I would love to have some of the TBC raids in classic!
The biggest problem with classic+ is that classic is simply an inferior version of the TBC client.
The tiny improvements to the game even before outlands would be welcome. Things like questhub in dustwallow and swamp of sorrows or even blood elves and draenei bringing horde and alliance equilibrium. Not saying that the last 2 are needed, but the improved talent trees + minor questlines would be great .
Another problem for classic wow is that its done. People played it, classic should move to a seasonal system where leveling is faster but changes are introduced like sod did.
I'm open minded to most of these changes.
classic might be done but players seem to constantly ask for a fresh server and do it all over again.
i really dont feel like classic functions as a seasonal server. A big feedback i keep getting is it's too late and i cant catch up now since everyone's multiple phases ahead of me, rather than just one infinite timeline rather than a set end date
I think WillE put it best when it comes to a poll system, it would work, but there lies the problem of being careful with what questions you ask your players, "There are some things you just shouldnt ask". Flying being one of those things, so in this case, yes to polling the community, but you bet your butt that if they put flying as a question on the poll, a tone of people will vote yes, and potentially destroy the classic feeling in the process
If that question was to ever get polled, it wouldn't pass.
I highly doubt 70% of the players want flying mounts in classic
Some opinions a lot of players seem to share.
Wasn't SoD not... basically.. Classic+?
It is to some degree, a true classic+ wouldn't be a seasonal server.
it would be more similar to the way OSRS does it, the server continues to add updates and changes to the world developing into a complete different game
@@xJurpi So... SoD was classic... with.. updates... ? Tbf; I hope blizzard doesn't even thing about it. All players are already split up into so many versions... classic, cata classic, classic HC, SoD and Retail and each of those options keep feeling more and more empty.
Tired of hearing "Yeah, Death Knights!" "Yeah, Demon Hunters!" - go play retail.
I agree, I personally would love to see it but yeah it just doesn't belong in classic wow
Too late to re-roll?
Never too late to re-roll
SoD needs to finish first, thats minimum 1 year out, maybe 1.5 years
polls suck, wrath babies will skew the results and just make it wotlk. vanilla players should have more weight imo, if a bunch of retail players vote on a game version they never played, it will ruin the game
you have a good point, I was going over some data from a recent community poll and it's pretty interesting how many players do share similar thoughts on classic+ changes. I'll probably make a video soon talking about it!
So your Take on Heat levels is completely incorrect. The community was providing negative feedback towards the metrics used to define the difficulty(More Fire Resistance) rather than the difficulty itself. Had the devs just created an Easy, Medium and Hard mode that is flat regardless of Fire Resistance then things may have been more welcomed. This helps alleviate the infectious speed clearing mentality because WB/consumes can no longer make fights 20-30 seconds long. This works great for players that play casually because they can adjust to their skill level and still not miss out on the best gear. Everyone wins.
I also don’t agree with the community poll. This can easily be identified via player base. SoD has 79k players per logs right now and Classic Era has 17k. The player base enjoys SoD as It is. Let the players that enjoy Era stay there because they won’t like Classic + anyway due to changes and Let those that enjoy SoD have a legitimate Classic + that is enjoyable to them. Everyone wins.
If difficulties got added into a poll, would the community vote in favor of it passing with 70% of the player base? I highly doubt it. the community has been VERY split on this topic.
difficulties have always split up players and it will continue to. there's no place for it in classic, if you want harder content go play something else.
If the players were really enjoying SoD each phase wouldn't have had a incredible drop off ironforge.pro/population/sod/overall/
I keep hearing more and more complaints about SoD rather than positive things supporting the changes.
P1 Peaked at 500k, P2 Peaked at 327k, P3 Peaked at 182k, & P4 is sitting at around 79k
Meanwhile if you look at cata it's sitting at around 200k, so is cata more enjoyable? This also doesn't account for players that aren't playing classic at all.
@@xJurpi When you analyze data you gotta look at more than just “people don’t play the game anymore so It must suck” mindset. P1 was perfect because leveling was easy and at the same time it allowed people to gauge if SoD was for them or not just like people do with any other game. P2 fell off for two reason: Classic leveling and Gnomergan being too difficult. That’s why the leveling buff introduced because classic leveling is one of the worst experience of classic, especially for those that have RL jobs, families and outside responsibilities where you can’t spend 4-5 hours a day in a video game. P3 fell off due to new competition of games, Mist of Pandaria remix, Classic Cata, War Within Pre patch (soon Expansion release) and Final Fantasy 14 new expansion took a lot of players. Even still classic has grown from 20k at the start to 79k in week three. P4 is massively successful as of now.
You have to be sure when you analyze any data that you don’t fall into what all these other streamers are doing and just seeing a decrease in the player base. As for the Classic Cata comment, yes 200k players are playing It so yes It is enjoyable to those 200k players. Some of those players used to play SoD and swapped over. That’s ok because that’s more what they enjoy. Nonetheless, the real comparison should be Classic era vs SoD because those are going to be the baseline benchmarks for what Classic + will look like and its drastically in favorable of SoD due to the player base.
Lastly, everyone makes noise when It comes to negativity. It’s a fact of life that people pay attention to negative things rather than positive things. There are tons of positive things about SoD but hardly any videos about It because Classic + coming out people are focusing more on that and finishing out the seasonal. Talk to the player base and you will find out.
regardless of what you think, most people do not like SoD, they quit and will never come back. using it as a reference for classic + is a joke.
If polls were added most of the things that made players quit SoD would have never been added into the game.
The community is very split on almost everything blizzard has mindless added into the game. it's legit just retail minus all the automated stuff.
@@xJurpi You are literally just regurgitating what all the streamers that hate SoD say. The numbers of the population speak for itself, if SoD, as seasonal server and classic beta, was such a failure that you say It is then It would have the same numbers as SoM which was roughly 2-3k but It doesn’t It has over triple the amount of Classic Era. People like SoD and those that quit were probably going to quit anyway. There are a lot of games out there that garner peoples attention. The community isn’t really split at all. It’s pretty straight forward. 79k that play SoD are for the changes and the majority of 17k that player Era (and take into account some Era players play SoD) don’t want changes. The Era community will always have classic era. Classic + needs massive changes and SoD delivers that.
We saw the results of the community polls when Stormrend was released into Classic Era. 3.6k poll voters spoke for 17k players of which some probably never raided at high end game at all. They simply wanted the raiders to pay for a second account and level up a horde priest or engineer to MC in Barrens (which still happens) rather than Stormrend. The poll failed. It may work for other games but definitely not WoW.
This is getting ridiculous.
what is?
Plus is not classic.
that's the whole point. it is why we have Era servers.
there's loads of unfinished content that classic + could expand upon
We have it it’s sod if they wipe it and start again yea no thanks
That would great and all, but so much would have to change for make players interested again
Why? FRANKLY, I don't care about plusing classic. I hate the idea.
I understand, you can always just play something else. Classic Era is popping off recently, tons of players getting back into classic wow
Make classic+ with Graphic from retail.
I wouldn't mind that, just give the option to toggle between the two graphic settings
It's insane how much classic players just want to play the same exact game with a new looking tank-and-spank boss to zug zug while it stands there and does it's one mechanic. Idk why you guys even get excited for hype around classic+ when you're so quick to be against super small changes like dual spec or QOL changes and think things like "instant mail" need to be voted on. I get being against ruining the spirit of classic, but lol.
That's why classic was so popular!
The raids are fun, harder doesn't equal fun. You can grab a beer and just game with the boys.
The poll was just an example of small changes that most players would vote on. 70% of the players would agree on instant mail.
It would be egregious to try and add bigger changes right off the bat.
@@xJurpi There's nothing wrong with that, that wasn't my point. I was just memeing a bit and I agree that is why it was popular and that should remain mostly the same if not exactly the same -- the point was how resistant to any change, even good QOL features, some ppl are. Like for example, if you're opposed to incremental tuning, you would probably be opposed to normalized ability scaling (bc that's basically the precursor to small tuning patches), like they've done with most abilities in SOD, which is a pretty big change, but one that makes sense...that's just being resistant for the sake of it imo. Classic was popular because it was the best MMO at the time in 2004. It's still decently popular, but just as a point of comparison, a SOD patch will, at its peak, be equiv to a retail patch, participation-wise, like the 2-3 months before a new retail patch when very few people are playing...not saying either is better...they're literally different games imo, but that's the numbers.
TLDR, people can like what they like, but opposing certain things, like really basic tuning or stat normalization, which would be a pretty big benefit bc Blizzard has never gotten class tuning spot on from the get go, just seems contrarian, at least to me. The whole point of Classic+, from my perspective, is to iterate on a version of the game that a lot of people really enjoy/ed, making it better while keeping the spirit of the game -- a lot of things, like dual spec, instant mail, normalizing spells and stats (not rage generation -- I get that's integral to how classic worked), worlds buff reduction or outright removal to make classes more self-sufficient, giving pets/totems the retail treatment with passive avoidance buffs to avoid them randomly flopping mid-encounter (No one likes the way this worked in classic. If you do, you're a masochist), might be larger changes, but they don't change how people interact with those systems in a meaningfully negative way, quite the opposite, and imo do not threaten the spirit of the game. Who tf thinks it's a great feature that your hunter/warlock pet dies randomly to air mid-encounter or that your fire res totem randomly dies to air and causes wipes that waste your time? These are things that are things of the past and shouldn't have existed to begin with...they're not features lol, they're more akin to bugs. It's like complaining about how the community received the MC heat levels -- did this really change the way a player interacted with the raid? If you don't want to do it, you can just do normal/level 1....it does nothing (from what I know). There is always going to be FOMO in MMOs and the lower caliber players will always complain about FOMO from difficulty levels, but I think they did a good job slightly rewarding players who want to do harder content(I'd argue barely rewarding them), while not making it a necessary requirement because the best gear is only obtained in heat III. Players doing that got very small bonuses (Maybe in a month they will be half a lockout ahead in gear or a single full lockout worth of gear and a fiery looking weapon). This doesn't make logical, non-brain-rotted players feel like they're missing out much(If it did, those ppl have issues and should just get better at the game). One can either spend a lot of time and gold farming res gear or not and get 99% of what those guys are(no fiery weapon =-( is the only thing as eventually everyone will be full BIS) with much less effort...the best of both worlds. These are non-issues...you have ppl complaining about this while there's actually portions of the game literally broken, like pvp =/, and the only realistic resolution to fix this is the implementation of pvp aura modifiers, but god forbid Blizz even flirt with that and Classic Andys will lose their shit. TLDR, choose your battles. Srry for the rant =(
You clearly don't understand how having QoL 'improvements' completely change the way people interact in the game world. If you go out farming in the world with a pve spec on a pvp server, you would feel scared about having a pvp encounter. That would be completely gone with Dual Spec. And this is just a small example. Things like this makes the game world big and dangerous. Another argument would be how flying would ruin everything mentioned before. Going back to the trainer in the city populates the world and you see players actually running around there. Everything in vanilla wow is created with a clear intent of an oldschool mmorpg in mind.
If you can't understand things like this, classic isn't for you, and you'd have a better time on retail imo.
Classic+ is supposed to retain the oldschool mmorpg elements. If you don't like those, there's a version for you called Retail.
@@XFoX90 I understand how they change things, I just don't think the ones I'm referring to change things negatively -- I think the opposite. No one is out here lobbying for flying mounts or anything, lol. Take your example of Dualspec; To begin with, a good portion of people are probably using dualspec for different roles. I'd argue probably more doing that than for a pvp spec(a aspect of the game that's a complete joke…AV rankers much fun lul). Take the person who is using it for a pvp spec, the example you gave was "someone out in the world farming in a pve spec". Even with dualspec, there's a high likelihood that a person doing that is going to have a pve spec on to help them farm mobs and/or farm mobs to get to the nodes they're farming. So say someone does have a pvp dual spec and was still using a pve spec -- if someone gets the jump on them, they'll still get ganked, all it does is allow them to not get camped and give them a chance to fight back after the fact. Say it was a person who was scared and had a pvp spec, class matchups, imo, are so hardcoded in classic due to horrible tuning that I just don't think it changes much. It's like saying that the warrior out in the world farming in his pve spec would have fared better versus a balance druid who got the jump on him, kiting him indefinitely pressing Starsurge every few seconds…it wouldn't matter much imo, and a lot of matchups are that way. I don't think it matters much when there's so little out-play-ability even in slightly unfavorable matchups in classic. There's a ton of those matchups, but another notable one would be literally ANY melee vs a prot pally atm...I could care less if, when going out into the world, I'd have to assume everyone was using their most efficient builds...I would actually rather that. If anything it plays into your notion of making the world scarier. The tuning is so bad in pvp, so it's just not something I care about and I don't think most people care about a part of the game that's basically broken.
And that is kinda the reason for my original comment, that the no changes mindset is so brainrot. People don't know how to pick their battles and hills to die on… It's like a person in a room filled with noxious gas… with a gas mask on… but the gas mask goggles has a crack in it and you'll sit there complaining "this crack should be fixed" when you could just walk out of the room. It's the "no changes" mindset that has basically made PVP in SOD a part of the game that, to most players in SOD, is a completely broken part of the game and has made Blizz so chickenshit to make meaningful changes because the only real way to change it is via PVP modifiers and they know it. It's the only way to balance classes both in PVE and PVP without gutting them in either. That type of mindset has made PVP in SOD a part of the game that has had its hands tied behind its back from the start bc of how reluctant the community has made devs to implement PVP modifiers. And I'm saying this as someone who has played every version of the game, having played vanillla in '04 and on rerelease and has the ability to realize that there are some parts of classic that should have stayed dead. You're preaching to the choir about game versions. I can understand how most of what you said, flying, trainers, etc, are fine, but there are things that have to be looked at as, after a certain point, should they exist to the detriment of a player's experience? Specifically look at dualspec, I think it's stupid to ever have to be playing inefficient talents bc of some arbitrary reasoning, like a gold respec cost, or "I have to play this spec later on, so I can't play this more efficient one for dungeons now", or some arbitrary restriction "because it's always existed"…stuff like that is too restrictive. It's like covenants in shadowlands being too restrictive and there's a reason those were so badly received and will remain dead in retail, and there's a reason devs implemented dualspec in SOD and would probably see a return in any newer version of the game.
bro dual spec is bis
@@nikolaydutskinov5194 i used to say the same thing until seeing how much it’s changed the raiding meta for wotlk & currently in SoD
just reduce the cost to respec the main reason to respec is to go and pvp