@@christianfox7431 He was saying that they begin as slaves from other tribes and then gain citizenship to the tribe that captured them. Of course, I haven't verified the information, that's just what Rem was saying
A recommendation for whoever is running this channel for Destiny. At the top of the description if you added a brief description of the video, for example in this case who Rem actually is. Would help any new viewers I think who have no idea who some of the people Destiny talks to are
TL:DW Destiny *makes utilitarian argument* Rem *feigns shock, gaslights and virtue signals for an hour* Destiny “didn’t ask, don’t care plus you’re white”
Rem is my least favorite Destiny character. thinking back to his arguments where he acts like he's a god because he's read philosophy books, but he's still not even good at constructing and understanding arguments. i think he helped destiny get into intro philosophy.. but like his arguments are soo frustrating and he has no idea what he's talking about unless it's a weird philosophy thing like hegelian pseudo apriori dickcheese
Which is strange since he recurrently has this precise type of argument with Destiny over and over. It's like he's trapped into failure as a means to distinguish himself from Destiny.
but does really know what he is talking about if it is pseudo hegelian presupposationalist penischessy stuff? he is an undergrad student and I havent seen a single conversation in which he makes a decently constructed philosophical argument. Id even go as far as saying destiny has reasonably better syllogistic structured thought than him. rem is even worse than marty. cant convey the simplest points, gets easily bullied by people like fucking trainwrecks about phil(??) and doesnt seem to go as far as the nuances.rem literally only uses about the same stereotypical sjw(not saying this an anti-sjw, but oh well) talking points with decently better phrasing using expressions like "moral grounding" and "metaethics"(yes, I know metaethics is about moral objectives. to end the rant, I havent seen people talk more past each other more than when they talk about moral realism.
The Purple Pie Pal having some fantasies over some indigineous ethnostate monarchy is most troubling. The greatest blessing to mankind - the democratic socialist government- has already been envisioned and the sooner humanity joins it the better we will all be
45:56 "Our identity is tied to the land." Meanwhile, there are tons of Chinatowns and other cultural enclaves that retain their culture (and language) despite being so far away from their origins.
I think he is coming from that point of view because native american tribes, at least some, considered certain landmarks and spots as sacred. Not sure if that is necessarily the case with the Chinese, but i haven't read on it, to be completely honest.
@Amatsumagasuchi Sure, at some point they were, but i'm pretty sure Chinese people were quite different from native americans in terms of culture and even visually say, 200-300 years ago.
@adam I don’t know a lot about Canadian Indians, other than there is a big difference between their cultures and US Indians, such as US Indians were plains Indians who lived nomadic lifestyle using horses, and Canadian Indians were not nomadic. However I do know quite a bit about American Indians and I am an Apache who was raised on an Apache Indian reservation. Some tribes in the US did have slaves. The thing he was talking about when he said that if someone was killed they would take that person prisoner and then they lived freely in their society is 100 percent wrong. If someone was killed they would form a war party and they would go to kill that person, now it’s true they wouldn’t attempt to kill uninvolved people, and they would stop once they accomplished their goal. Now if they came across someone and took them captive they would allow this person regardless of race ect, to have a chance to become a full member. Now he took these two different scenarios and blended them together, and neither of these had to do with slavery. The tribes that took slaves would go and attack other tribes and take them as slaves, and this is altogether another situation.
@@tph2010 ignoring the fact it's damaging Canada as a whole, yes, we should reject bad ideas by virtue of them being bad ideas regardless of how few people believe in them
Having relatives that live on reservation in Washington state...fuck that shit. I dont care about almost any of that shit. Theres no going back. Theres no reparations at this point. I see these communities being starved of resources. At this point id much rather have them taken care of with proper infrastructure. Thats, in the immediate foreground, my best idea of reparations to them. I've never lived there. I dont have any connection to that and see a lot of that connection to the land as nonsense. I do understand their connection. But the nation isn't giving the land back to them. At this point I care about their actual well beings and future economic opportunities.
@@harpsmith8570 I know its old, but id be guessing what he would be talking about is the fact that as soon as humans turn up in any area, there are a pile of species that stop showing up in the historical record in that area very quickly. Eg, mammoths, north american horses, flightless birds all over the place, mega fauna in australia. You add on dams, irrigation, slash and burn agriculture, fire hunting, etc and pretty much anywhere humans show up, the environment changes rapidly
in greece they had slavery and you could become a citizen, i HIGHLY doubt rem would wave greeces slavery like hes waving the natives by saying "they become apart of the tribe"
@@autismgains2216 Your posting cringe. His broader point was that forcing the pipeline on them was colonialism, you can cherry pick and ad hom your way out of addressing that all you want
@@thetelescreen372 yeah they're resistant to relinquishing soveinty because of history but tribal leadership is corrupt as fuck. Some reservations are better than others of course but most of them are lead by an out and about corrupt hiearchy. They're dying out. Integration into the states is the best option for them at this point but the history of colonialism is preventing that
Canada isn't a melting pot country. We have an official strategy of multiculturalism. We lean far more toward letting each community's differences flourish in a healthy way than assimilating everyone into a national ideal.
There are values and systems that fall within and outside of the mosaic approach. Private religious schools, accommodation regarding dress codes and even ID for example are generally okay. Literal ethnostate "our blood, our soil, our people, our way!" monarchy to the detriment of the entire country and in complete opposition to the majority will of indigenous people IS NOT within the scope of multiculturalism.
Not the side I expected Destiny to take here, but to be honest, after living in the US and then moving to Alberta, and seeing how the First Nations function here vs the Native Americans in the US, it's night and day different. The Canadian Gov't continued to 'eff with the Natives in Canada to the point that their culture and traditions are virtually non-existent. Most of the problems aren't due to the lack of reparations, but that the tribal chiefs hoard all the money, so very little of it makes it to the individual tribe members. This tosses them into a life of poverty and that often leads to a lot of crime and abuse. There's now a stigma by non-native Canadians toward natives which leads to racism off the reservations, while the reservations are dump-heaps with a few tribal elders being quite wealthy. They have nowhere to go, really, and it's sad. But it's not like very many of these folks speak their own language, or try to preserve religious and cultural traditions or 'respect the land.' There are some that do, (and the Inuit tribes in the territories.. they're fine... not who I'm talking about). Because of that, I kinda agree with Destiny here, as cold as it sounds. You can live in society like the rest of folks, use normal government subsidies that go directly to YOU, no a group of people, and there'd be nothing holding you back from still retaining your culture and history if you chose to do so.
I really need Rem, to slow down, think out his sentence in his head, and then say it, because listening to him struggling to get one full sentence out for 15 minutes is nerve-racking. If he has a stutter problem then my bad, but jeez.
I feel like most of "anti-colonialist" leftie-twitter is just cringe af. Many of them actually sound a lot like the strawman version of the left anti-SJWs kept talking about.
Actually I think it’s just his friend making a new account because the old one got banned for ban evasion because the old one got banned for ban evasion because the old one got banned for ban evasion because the old one got banned for ban evasion because the old one got banned for ban evasion
Rem: "I hate a lot of culture, anime, porn, edgy jokes all these should not exist in society, I will spent my time on Twitch trying to abolish this culture the only virtues worth protecting are slavery and monarchy."
Ok so I'm just at the very beginning but Rem just doesn't know his history here. Native Americans weren't 'tainted' into discovering slavery, it was a common practice between tribes to take members of other tribes as slaves. Is their form of slavery comparable to the chattel slavery of Africans in the South? Of course not, not anywhere close. The customs were entirely different and it wasn't used for economic reasons in the same way the Confederate South used slavery, but it was slavery nonetheless and it was done of their own accord. Now maybe I should go ahead and finish the video...
The Cherokee remain highly respected in American culture. They were one of the "Five Civilized Tribes," and they were tragically removed from their land during the Trail of Tears........ They also practiced slavery and were able to integrate into the American economy because they adapted their slave practices to fit European standards, e.g. enslaving Africans. The Cherokee Nation had its own slave revolt after the Trail of Tears and before the American Civil War.
Are there any indigenous folk who still exist and were the first people to ever occupy the land they currently live on? Also, is your guest suggesting that dictatorships are just fine if it's an indigenous group that supports it? Is the Chief not a dictator?
@@kasuo7039 I'm sure that's true up until a point. Go far back enough and It's gonna be impossible to prove original occupation. The bones discovered anywhere in the world will come with vagaries, and only show a portion of the world that preceded them. We're left with trying to piece together a historical narrative from fragments lucky enough to be found. So, what I'm suggesting is that disputes over territories and claiming who the rightful owners are is dubious.
"Slavery wasn't hereditary in the indigenous U.S. and Canada like in Central America." Actually the opposite is true. Slavery in many parts of the indigenous U.S. was hereditary. In Central America, children of slaves were generally born free.
Jesus... REM is trying to point form describe the most controversial and complex issue in Canada (aka The Federal relationship with First Nations, past, present and future) to a guy that has almost no knowledge of the topic. Then ask him to 'solve' the issue. Of course Destiny's response is going to be fucked. Might as well try to solve the Israel/Palestine conflict with a high school textbook and a crayon map. Some conversions are not worth having. Can't finish watching from yelling at the screen too much.
The short is that this Pipeline has gone to the BC Supreme court favouring the Federal Government and Tribal Bands, then the protests started even though they lost, but COVID-19 showed up and stalled everything. Recently the Liberal government had agreed to talk with the heredity chiefs first in future projects moving forward, thus now resulting the tribal bands want the resignation of the Minister of Crown Indigenous Relations Carolyn Bennett because the Chiefs aren't elected and weren't apparently even talked to when this change was made.
Thanks for the short, but could you expand on the last bit? The thing about the resignation. You can go tell me to be a Wikipedia Andy and I’ll go, just thought to ask lol
@@Kyle_Schaff Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs called for her resignation here's a link www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stefanovich-wetsuweten-elected-chiefs-mou-fallout-1.5565243
08:29 "You know, it's like saying because the Germans did slavery therefore ... [all white people are colonisers? all Europeans are racist?]" - Because that's totally not something anyone on the left would ever say when discussing these issues.
Go vegan man - you know that it's the right thing to do. Arguing about things like race- and women-discriminations is so stupid when you literally torture and kill harmless, peaceful beings every day just for your taste-pleasure.
Kinda shows just how little people care or think when they pay to get feeling things murdered while bitching for a little fun, worst are this people how think they make some smart arguments but you change 2 words and they argue for racial enslavement.
Guys I care so much about the sovereignty of indigenous people that I'm going to deny their sovereign decisions because it confuses me. Why do people virtue signal so hard like this, just be honest, stop acting like you care so deeply about certain topics but then immediately stop caring when it doesn't fit your narrative.I respect the tankies that openly say they think all rich boomers should dig straight down in minecraft than vague virtue hungry people like this guy.
I think there might be a broader point to bringing up the fact that meat eating is a part of indigenous culture. For instance many Native Americans hate white people, and have a large written history about oppression by the white man. The hate of whites is quite universal among natives. Some white guy coming along could say "Hey native guy, would you please stop eating meat?", and the response from the native will likely be "Fuck you. I have my culture, and since you took my land I'm not giving up my culture." Since veganism in the west is predominantly a white activity it's very unlikely that many natives will budge on the issue. Especially since it's not just "eating", but to natives meat is a sacrament. Imagine Rem, or Destiny going to a Cathedral, and saying "Eating the eucharist is bad, and you should feel bad for eating it." They would be laughed out of the Church. That's about the reaction they would get telling natives to stop eating meat, except they might also get their asses kicked. Also natives have their own de facto nation so there's a strong barrier there.
@@patrickcampbell957 I didn't say it was a pretty reason. Whatever you call it. It represents a reason why a certain group of people will not be moved by appeals by Vegans.
@@rinneganofrage7206 It's a descriptive argument for sure. Perhaps ironic because there will be a lot of SJWs who will defend indigenous groups for these reasons. From my point of view it's more of an national diplomacy thing. Making a culture of another nation in our image is generally seen as, bad form. Diplomacy is generally seen as a better method of peaceful coexistence.
Rem proposed a society of shiny happy people, but now he sees that would only be an imitation of life. So now he's losing his religion; it's the end of his world as he knows it
Destiny prides himself on his consistent principles. If I disagree with him, it’s generally on his principles, not his consistency. 16:50 Rem: if you look at the history of indigenous people, it’s been a history of constant conversion.. Destiny: don’t care Rem: how can you not care? Destiny: I don’t give a fuck if you have a history of constant whatever... History of slavery? History of Jim Crow laws? A constant history of people, you don’t care about? You’re only gonna care about some people’s history but not others? What are the principles here?
TooMuchLove the majority? What’s that assertion based on? A lot of them do, a lot of them don’t. How are polls on indigenous people done? And even if you were right, what about the minority voice?
@@drnick279 The Leger Survey done in Canada shows that the majority of the Peoples nation leaders are for the pipeline. While their is no reputable polls done amongst the Peoples Nation common citizens - their leaders are either chosen from Father to son through royal lineage or chosen through a council of elders - none of which is true democratic process but it was their right afforded to them by the Canadian government. Idk if the minority dont want it then its too bad.. thats democracy. Land ownership is intrinsically immoral so I dont think this is a human rights issue
As an indigenous person, this was incredibly painful to listen to. Destiny, I strongly suggest avoiding these topics until you put in some effort to further educate yourself on indigenous history.
Fr he’s such a dumbass. He is saying that meat being a huge aspect in some indigenous cultures is somehow a negative thing equal to slavery is incredibly brain-dead. Because it’s definitely not like many tribes absolutely depended on specific types of meat to survive for hundreds to thousands of years.
Started as a lefty, started watching destiny after the jontron debate Then I enjoyed his debates against Nick Fuentes and other alt-righters. The dunking and insults are always fun, until eventually, I started to turn, because some of the arguments destiny used against them seemed really inconsistent with the facts of history, and inconsistent with other arguments. That's right, you've heard of people who got saved from the alt-right pipeline by people like destiny, I'm the opposite. Until the lefty arc happened, and now I'm back. One other thing that turned me away from the left was the hypocrisy. "Hey yeah, why do some people get to arbitrarily have a spiritual connection and ownership of their land, but Europeans can't claim that?" But if like Destiny says, we can work towards actually being all equal, then I'm back on board.
I wish people would ground out and elucidate what they mean by colonial epistemology or ethics instead of just using it as some way to gatekeep any ethical debate about veganism.
"their identities are tied to the land they own" Most Natives I know would slap the shit out of Rem for saying some shit like this. In most traditional Native cultures there is no such thing as land ownership. Also tribal leadership is rampant with corruption.
Rem endorsed LITERAL slavery, blood and soil ethnonationalism and monarchy to the detriment of the entirety of Canada and against the popular will of indigenous people "because of spiritual significance" in this debate.
I am sorry, but to pretend the indigenous humans that lived in America and Canada before the Europeans, were peaceful and didn't kill other tribes indiscriminately, is pathetic.
I hate the trope of the noble savage. To acknowledge a people as equally human to yourself you need to acknowledge their ability to just be assholes. They weren't a people in touch with nature any more then the Gaul were. They fought among each other for the exact same petty reasons all other tribes did and the entire use every part of the animal thing only happened in places where food was scarce enough that they had no other choice.
Destiny: The ChapoTrapHouse guy's tweet of the image from Salo was bad because it could be seen as homophobic and he has a responsibility to not post that. I don't need to make the case WHY the tweet is homophobic, but some people could interpret it that way even if it was just meant as a jab against Buttigieg for reasons other than his orientation. Also Destiny: I don't care if my tweets about native people are seen as racist, because I didn't mean it that way and it was meant as an attack against this person for other reasons. I don't care how people feel about it. Tone policing for me, not for thee
That’s because the Chapo tweet could *only* be interpreted as homophobic. You can skip this next long paragraph if you don’t need convincing of that. The only way you could not see the usage of this film as a homophobic attack against Buttigieg is if you’re unfamiliar with the source material. I understand the movie and the book it was heavily inspired by very well. While Pasolini introduces themes surrounding fascism as the backdrop in which the events of the film happen (the book has the protagonists being from different positions of high authority in late-1700s society-a duke, judge, banker, and priest-as opposed to fascist officials), the major themes of both works are on the exploration of sexual depravity-one of the things it challenges the consumer on is to judge what sexual acts are immoral and have us question why through provocative imagery. This is done from mundane sex all the way to the gay-scat-torture-murder-rape of children. The protagonists literally say that vaginal sex is undesirable. Sexual deviancy arguably *is* the focal issue of the works. I have NEVER seen _Salò_ or _120 Days of Sodom_ used against a straight person in my entire life and could never imagine how it could ever be used that way. If they were wanting to draw parallels between fascism and Buttigieg, they could have used literally any fascistic-themed work more aptly than this one. To deny that _Salò_ is primarily about sexual depravity and say “it’s just a critique of fascism” is to have never even read the synopsis. Now, for Destiny’s tweet, he was very clearly saying that you can’t use the fact that something’s a cultural tradition to justify doing an immoral behavior. Full stop. He never made a statement on all Native culture, or even any specific Native culture. He was using a provocative example of something we should all agree is immoral-slavery-and fitting it into the logical framework laid by the person who tweeted him originally in order to demonstrate the absurdity of their argument. You’ll have to tell me what part of his tweet was racist in some way. Also, Destiny said that he understands the tone police argument, but he was debating Rem that his tweet wasn’t incorrect. Chapo’s wasn’t about tone policing, it was just homophobic.
@@Kyle_Schaff "That’s because the Chapo tweet could only be interpreted as homophobic." Lol dude this is 100% wrong and you even disproved it yourself with the next paragraph. I know you think you were trying to prove yourself correct, but you instead made a case for why the Chapo dude himself said it wasn't homophobic. Regardless, Destiny's argument wasn't even that it was homophobic (since he himself wasn't familiar with the film or the themes either, and just saw a naked dude being tortured and uncharitably flung the accusation), but that it could be interpreted as such and that on a large platform it's irresponsible to do post that and not take into account people's interpretations and the effects of it. Hell, he even went on to say that he could see Steven Crowder or any other conservative homophobe making that tweet. Well, a lot of racist pro-colonialists and pro-genocide people make the same arguments Destiny made in the tweets and this conversation with Rem.
Rem enslaved himself into Mesopotamia in this debate, but he got equal rights and was part of the tribe.
REM doesn't even know where Mesopotamia is.
If you have equal rights how are you a slave?
@@christianfox7431 He was saying that they begin as slaves from other tribes and then gain citizenship to the tribe that captured them. Of course, I haven't verified the information, that's just what Rem was saying
To be fair, I think he meant Mesoamerica
Some say he’s on the fast track to becoming Chief, too.
When destiny died in lane at 8 cs, i knew it was gonna heat up
Debates and League are the worst possible combination lol
@@user-uq4gr5nl5o *best
@@AppleBaron Best for us, and worst for him hehe
LMFAO DREW
@@user-uq4gr5nl5o😊
A recommendation for whoever is running this channel for Destiny. At the top of the description if you added a brief description of the video, for example in this case who Rem actually is. Would help any new viewers I think who have no idea who some of the people Destiny talks to are
But what if they're basically just nobody?
@@Sanguine_Entertainment that's irrelevant. Might a nobody, but that hasn't stopped people from getting intrigued on them as streamers
@@Sanguine_Entertainment then just make it clear that he is just a rando
How do y'all not know REM THE BASED BOI
I love this idea, it adds a degree of professionalism imo.
REM is actually one of the most insufferable people I've ever listened to. I don't say this flippantly. Wow.
He sounds like the physical manifestation of all the right-wing ideas of what a lefty is.
@@CrestOfArtorias Candice Owens would love him
@Chowder Life truuuuuuuu
TL:DW
Destiny *makes utilitarian argument*
Rem *feigns shock, gaslights and virtue signals for an hour*
Destiny “didn’t ask, don’t care plus you’re white”
Rem is my least favorite Destiny character. thinking back to his arguments where he acts like he's a god because he's read philosophy books, but he's still not even good at constructing and understanding arguments. i think he helped destiny get into intro philosophy.. but like his arguments are soo frustrating and he has no idea what he's talking about unless it's a weird philosophy thing like hegelian pseudo apriori dickcheese
I'm pretty sure it was actually JF that got him into Philosophy before he turned into a massive lolcow.
Which is strange since he recurrently has this precise type of argument with Destiny over and over. It's like he's trapped into failure as a means to distinguish himself from Destiny.
but does really know what he is talking about if it is pseudo hegelian presupposationalist penischessy stuff? he is an undergrad student and I havent seen a single conversation in which he makes a decently constructed philosophical argument. Id even go as far as saying destiny has reasonably better syllogistic structured thought than him. rem is even worse than marty. cant convey the simplest points, gets easily bullied by people like fucking trainwrecks about phil(??) and doesnt seem to go as far as the nuances.rem literally only uses about the same stereotypical sjw(not saying this an anti-sjw, but oh well) talking points with decently better phrasing using expressions like "moral grounding" and "metaethics"(yes, I know metaethics is about moral objectives. to end the rant, I havent seen people talk more past each other more than when they talk about moral realism.
Finally people are realizing this. Holy shit.
This guy understands nothing about Hegel at all.
Dude said Mesopotamia in South America. Mesopotamia is in the Middle East, between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.
There is a river in Northern Argentina (near Buenos Area) with the same/similar name, very confusing
link to wiki en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia,_Argentina
(region not river, not sure if river shares the same name)
He may have meant Meso America
You have no idea what you are talking about. Google it at the very least.
“Democracy is bad let the Shaman Priest represent the people” - Rem
fascism is okay actually to own the libs
The Purple Pie Pal having some fantasies over some indigineous ethnostate monarchy is most troubling. The greatest blessing to mankind - the democratic socialist government- has already been envisioned and the sooner humanity joins it the better we will all be
I think I actually hate Rem.
Why she's one of the best anime waifu.
45:56 "Our identity is tied to the land."
Meanwhile, there are tons of Chinatowns and other cultural enclaves that retain their culture (and language) despite being so far away from their origins.
I think he is coming from that point of view because native american tribes, at least some, considered certain landmarks and spots as sacred. Not sure if that is necessarily the case with the Chinese, but i haven't read on it, to be completely honest.
@Amatsumagasuchi Sure, at some point they were, but i'm pretty sure Chinese people were quite different from native americans in terms of culture and even visually say, 200-300 years ago.
This conversation has showed me why history chooses violent conquest every time over civil discussion. There just isn't enough hours in the day.
You didn't just, look at nature?
@@applez4life200 No, he was too far south.
Hearing a leftie attempt to justify slavery by "its not southern slavery" is beyond hilarious.
as a lefty i wish rem would go away, well most lefties.
But the Aztecs did it also!
@adam I don’t know a lot about Canadian Indians, other than there is a big difference between their cultures and US Indians, such as US Indians were plains Indians who lived nomadic lifestyle using horses, and Canadian Indians were not nomadic.
However I do know quite a bit about American Indians and I am an Apache who was raised on an Apache Indian reservation. Some tribes in the US did have slaves. The thing he was talking about when he said that if someone was killed they would take that person prisoner and then they lived freely in their society is 100 percent wrong. If someone was killed they would form a war party and they would go to kill that person, now it’s true they wouldn’t attempt to kill uninvolved people, and they would stop once they accomplished their goal.
Now if they came across someone and took them captive they would allow this person regardless of race ect, to have a chance to become a full member. Now he took these two different scenarios and blended them together, and neither of these had to do with slavery.
The tribes that took slaves would go and attack other tribes and take them as slaves, and this is altogether another situation.
Chattle Slavery is different. Destiny was ignorant in this debate
@@adamboyle3331 That was more like indentured servitude
So I'm allowed to be an ethno nationalist as long as I have a spiritual connection to some dirt?
Only if you are a member of the "nations" and not a "colonizer"... I think /shrug
Brotherhood of Blood and Soil but its okay if you're kinda brown
Exactly. What a great point. Thank you for having the courage to stand up against Native American ethno-nationalism, the scourge of our time. Bravo.
@@tph2010 ignoring the fact it's damaging Canada as a whole, yes, we should reject bad ideas by virtue of them being bad ideas regardless of how few people believe in them
@@tph2010 didn't ask don't care and plus your white
Doesn't matter how much left destiny goes, he will always be a gamer at heart
yes that is why i love him.
False dichotomy
Are gamers right wing? Somebody forgot to tell me. Guess I'll sell all my shit now
@@zacharywoodford8530 gamer moment bro. gamers say the n word all the time
@@zacharywoodford8530 Gamers are aggressive in tone because historically the guy on the other side was always talking shit
Destiny got credit for Joshua at the end of this debate.
Having relatives that live on reservation in Washington state...fuck that shit. I dont care about almost any of that shit. Theres no going back. Theres no reparations at this point. I see these communities being starved of resources. At this point id much rather have them taken care of with proper infrastructure. Thats, in the immediate foreground, my best idea of reparations to them. I've never lived there. I dont have any connection to that and see a lot of that connection to the land as nonsense. I do understand their connection. But the nation isn't giving the land back to them. At this point I care about their actual well beings and future economic opportunities.
i love the rem debates, destiny gets a special kind of triggered
He literally made the ABL "the KKK brought my grandma presents!" Argument to hand wave indigenous slavery
They were just family members and i guess Women where highly respected after capture.
I cringed when he said “ethical slavery”
they have a spiritual connection to slavery. They voted to be enslaved
Love when it goes from him flipping out to the beginning when he’s all calm and relaxed
I’m doing my PhD studying the environmental impacts of pre-Columbian societies and Rem is triggering me so hard.
Can you tell us about some of your conclusions/interesting finds AdventureTime?
@@harpsmith8570 I know its old, but id be guessing what he would be talking about is the fact that as soon as humans turn up in any area, there are a pile of species that stop showing up in the historical record in that area very quickly. Eg, mammoths, north american horses, flightless birds all over the place, mega fauna in australia.
You add on dams, irrigation, slash and burn agriculture, fire hunting, etc and pretty much anywhere humans show up, the environment changes rapidly
the best destiny debates are when he plays league in the background
He get's extra mad lol, league really gives you gray hair
He gets pretty heated when he's on league
NO DONT ENCOURAGE IT
It's what peak performance looks like. Also "a lot"
I cant stand watching him int these games
Am I the only one who doesn't like Rem? He sounds pretentious and one of those more-indigenous-than-thou types.
in greece they had slavery and you could become a citizen, i HIGHLY doubt rem would wave greeces slavery like hes waving the natives by saying "they become apart of the tribe"
Rem has never stepped foot on a rez in his life
Does that invalidate a single thing he said?
@@thetelescreen372 yeah he has no idea what he's talking about. He's talking about Native Americans like they're another fucking species
@Mitch Lang the Badlands isn't a reservation but ok maybe he's drove by a couple. Wow real indigenous that guy
@@autismgains2216 Your posting cringe. His broader point was that forcing the pipeline on them was colonialism, you can cherry pick and ad hom your way out of addressing that all you want
@@thetelescreen372 yeah they're resistant to relinquishing soveinty because of history but tribal leadership is corrupt as fuck. Some reservations are better than others of course but most of them are lead by an out and about corrupt hiearchy. They're dying out. Integration into the states is the best option for them at this point but the history of colonialism is preventing that
Woke rem is the worst, I miss the philosophy debates on moral realism or whatever rem thinks that means.
When destiny starts it off or says with "my dude" you already know it's about to go down 😂
Canada isn't a melting pot country. We have an official strategy of multiculturalism. We lean far more toward letting each community's differences flourish in a healthy way than assimilating everyone into a national ideal.
There are values and systems that fall within and outside of the mosaic approach. Private religious schools, accommodation regarding dress codes and even ID for example are generally okay. Literal ethnostate "our blood, our soil, our people, our way!" monarchy to the detriment of the entire country and in complete opposition to the majority will of indigenous people IS NOT within the scope of multiculturalism.
Destiny became a vegan in this debate
Not the side I expected Destiny to take here, but to be honest, after living in the US and then moving to Alberta, and seeing how the First Nations function here vs the Native Americans in the US, it's night and day different. The Canadian Gov't continued to 'eff with the Natives in Canada to the point that their culture and traditions are virtually non-existent.
Most of the problems aren't due to the lack of reparations, but that the tribal chiefs hoard all the money, so very little of it makes it to the individual tribe members. This tosses them into a life of poverty and that often leads to a lot of crime and abuse. There's now a stigma by non-native Canadians toward natives which leads to racism off the reservations, while the reservations are dump-heaps with a few tribal elders being quite wealthy.
They have nowhere to go, really, and it's sad. But it's not like very many of these folks speak their own language, or try to preserve religious and cultural traditions or 'respect the land.' There are some that do, (and the Inuit tribes in the territories.. they're fine... not who I'm talking about). Because of that, I kinda agree with Destiny here, as cold as it sounds. You can live in society like the rest of folks, use normal government subsidies that go directly to YOU, no a group of people, and there'd be nothing holding you back from still retaining your culture and history if you chose to do so.
Mesopotamia was in the Middle East and who cares about a specific indigenous area rather than the argument about the whole area
google mesopotamia south america and saying who cares isnt a good point
REM GOT COLONIZED THIS DEBATE
Cultural relativism got destroyed in this debate
I really need Rem, to slow down, think out his sentence in his head, and then say it, because listening to him struggling to get one full sentence out for 15 minutes is nerve-racking. If he has a stutter problem then my bad, but jeez.
I feel like most of "anti-colonialist" leftie-twitter is just cringe af. Many of them actually sound a lot like the strawman version of the left anti-SJWs kept talking about.
So what he's saying is that enemies aren't enslaved, but peacefully assimilated into the Borg. Got it.
Destiny got unbanned from Twitter in this debate.
Actually I think it’s just his friend making a new account because the old one got banned for ban evasion because the old one got banned for ban evasion because the old one got banned for ban evasion because the old one got banned for ban evasion because the old one got banned for ban evasion
@@hendog5396 Yes, his "friend"
What's his new Twitter? I wanna follow
Roy Marshall the @ is GazeWithin
Rem: "I hate a lot of culture, anime, porn, edgy jokes all these should not exist in society, I will spent my time on Twitch trying to abolish this culture the only virtues worth protecting are slavery and monarchy."
That was a very good fridge-temp IQ comparison. I wonder how many more hoops can we jump through to get to that conclusion?
Rem used his argument against destiny's argument in this debate
It was not very effective
now this is what i call content
it's shit. Neither of them know what they are talking about and they both act like they care.
_jhc when are you going to put out more content yourself?
Ok so I'm just at the very beginning but Rem just doesn't know his history here. Native Americans weren't 'tainted' into discovering slavery, it was a common practice between tribes to take members of other tribes as slaves. Is their form of slavery comparable to the chattel slavery of Africans in the South? Of course not, not anywhere close. The customs were entirely different and it wasn't used for economic reasons in the same way the Confederate South used slavery, but it was slavery nonetheless and it was done of their own accord. Now maybe I should go ahead and finish the video...
This "let's go get weaker nations' resources" would actually make Destiny a good neo-lib. He is making the points that destroyed the middle east.
The Cherokee remain highly respected in American culture. They were one of the "Five Civilized Tribes," and they were tragically removed from their land during the Trail of Tears........ They also practiced slavery and were able to integrate into the American economy because they adapted their slave practices to fit European standards, e.g. enslaving Africans. The Cherokee Nation had its own slave revolt after the Trail of Tears and before the American Civil War.
Are there any indigenous folk who still exist and were the first people to ever occupy the land they currently live on?
Also, is your guest suggesting that dictatorships are just fine if it's an indigenous group that supports it? Is the Chief not a dictator?
yeah in the territories of canada, all the others were killed or relocated
@@kasuo7039
I'm sure that's true up until a point. Go far back enough and It's gonna be impossible to prove original occupation. The bones discovered anywhere in the world will come with vagaries, and only show a portion of the world that preceded them. We're left with trying to piece together a historical narrative from fragments lucky enough to be found. So, what I'm suggesting is that disputes over territories and claiming who the rightful owners are is dubious.
2 white guys talked out of their asses about Indigenous persons in this debate
When things get so heated you gotta pull Vaush in after the stream
"Slavery wasn't hereditary in the indigenous U.S. and Canada like in Central America." Actually the opposite is true. Slavery in many parts of the indigenous U.S. was hereditary. In Central America, children of slaves were generally born free.
Jesus... REM is trying to point form describe the most controversial and complex issue in Canada (aka The Federal relationship with First Nations, past, present and future) to a guy that has almost no knowledge of the topic. Then ask him to 'solve' the issue.
Of course Destiny's response is going to be fucked.
Might as well try to solve the Israel/Palestine conflict with a high school textbook and a crayon map.
Some conversions are not worth having. Can't finish watching from yelling at the screen too much.
true that was really dumb and irresponsible of him
Is Rem always this dense?
Two guys who don't have a full grasp of native politics won this debate
The short is that this Pipeline has gone to the BC Supreme court favouring the Federal Government and Tribal Bands, then the protests started even though they lost, but COVID-19 showed up and stalled everything. Recently the Liberal government had agreed to talk with the heredity chiefs first in future projects moving forward, thus now resulting the tribal bands want the resignation of the Minister of Crown Indigenous Relations Carolyn Bennett because the Chiefs aren't elected and weren't apparently even talked to when this change was made.
Thanks for the short, but could you expand on the last bit? The thing about the resignation. You can go tell me to be a Wikipedia Andy and I’ll go, just thought to ask lol
@@Kyle_Schaff Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs called for her resignation here's a link
www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stefanovich-wetsuweten-elected-chiefs-mou-fallout-1.5565243
@@Kyle_Schaff Here's a more recent link
www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wetsuweten-agreement-signing-1.5567760
“Indigenous peoples’ entire world view is tied to the land” we must respect Cree Lebensraum
this was one of the greatest things i have ever read
Rem is just a bad faith actor
08:29 "You know, it's like saying because the Germans did slavery therefore ... [all white people are colonisers? all Europeans are racist?]" - Because that's totally not something anyone on the left would ever say when discussing these issues.
Go vegan man - you know that it's the right thing to do. Arguing about things like race- and women-discriminations is so stupid when you literally torture and kill harmless, peaceful beings every day just for your taste-pleasure.
Kinda shows just how little people care or think when they pay to get feeling things murdered while bitching for a little fun, worst are this people how think they make some smart arguments but you change 2 words and they argue for racial enslavement.
@Monstrous Demon is this a joke?
@Monstrous Demon Are you serious or just trolling?
@Lady Skeptic Great story dude. I love that non-argument.
@@kingoliever1 Yeah it's like a comedy show. Ridiculous.
Guys I care so much about the sovereignty of indigenous people that I'm going to deny their sovereign decisions because it confuses me. Why do people virtue signal so hard like this, just be honest, stop acting like you care so deeply about certain topics but then immediately stop caring when it doesn't fit your narrative.I respect the tankies that openly say they think all rich boomers should dig straight down in minecraft than vague virtue hungry people like this guy.
Oh, yes, famous mesopotamian slaves in America.
Destiny encountered the anti white slippery slope in this debate
I hate how these nationalists ae secretly amongst our ranks.. these people would vote against the working class because "muh spiritual tradition"
Yeah blood and soil for natives
Jj O,leary just throw them in the gulag
@@toomuchlove1524 what about they just become citizens woth normal rights.
Jj O,leary if they’re planning to overthrow the government in favor of some fascist state they are not normal Citizens
The “Destiny got X in this debate” memes are becoming kinda cringe in this debate
7:08, the moment I got banned from dgg. So proud.
destiny and Wikipedia name a more iconic duo
LULW
I memed too close to the sun
I think there might be a broader point to bringing up the fact that meat eating is a part of indigenous culture. For instance many Native Americans hate white people, and have a large written history about oppression by the white man. The hate of whites is quite universal among natives.
Some white guy coming along could say "Hey native guy, would you please stop eating meat?", and the response from the native will likely be "Fuck you. I have my culture, and since you took my land I'm not giving up my culture." Since veganism in the west is predominantly a white activity it's very unlikely that many natives will budge on the issue. Especially since it's not just "eating", but to natives meat is a sacrament. Imagine Rem, or Destiny going to a Cathedral, and saying "Eating the eucharist is bad, and you should feel bad for eating it." They would be laughed out of the Church. That's about the reaction they would get telling natives to stop eating meat, except they might also get their asses kicked. Also natives have their own de facto nation so there's a strong barrier there.
So, you have moved from an appeal to tradition to an appeal to racism? That's some big brain shit.
@@patrickcampbell957 I didn't say it was a pretty reason. Whatever you call it. It represents a reason why a certain group of people will not be moved by appeals by Vegans.
@@rinneganofrage7206 It's a descriptive argument for sure. Perhaps ironic because there will be a lot of SJWs who will defend indigenous groups for these reasons. From my point of view it's more of an national diplomacy thing. Making a culture of another nation in our image is generally seen as, bad form. Diplomacy is generally seen as a better method of peaceful coexistence.
Rem proposed a society of shiny happy people, but now he sees that would only be an imitation of life. So now he's losing his religion; it's the end of his world as he knows it
Destiny prides himself on his consistent principles. If I disagree with him, it’s generally on his principles, not his consistency.
16:50
Rem: if you look at the history of indigenous people, it’s been a history of constant conversion..
Destiny: don’t care
Rem: how can you not care?
Destiny: I don’t give a fuck if you have a history of constant whatever...
History of slavery? History of Jim Crow laws? A constant history of people, you don’t care about?
You’re only gonna care about some people’s history but not others? What are the principles here?
BizarrePower what are you quoting? I was quoting this very conversation.
Destiny abandoned his principles to try to win this debate
The majority of indigenous leaders want the pipelines
TooMuchLove the majority? What’s that assertion based on? A lot of them do, a lot of them don’t. How are polls on indigenous people done? And even if you were right, what about the minority voice?
@@drnick279 The Leger Survey done in Canada shows that the majority of the Peoples nation leaders are for the pipeline. While their is no reputable polls done amongst the Peoples Nation common citizens - their leaders are either chosen from Father to son through royal lineage or chosen through a council of elders - none of which is true democratic process but it was their right afforded to them by the Canadian government. Idk if the minority dont want it then its too bad.. thats democracy. Land ownership is intrinsically immoral so I dont think this is a human rights issue
How did FGM not come up as an example of a backwards aspect of culture.
Rem is grossly misinformed and has no idea what he is talking about.
51:45 Thank the lord Destiny brought that up
Rem's tone of voice was really deep in this debate.
Destiny and his friend must be close. He’s acting as if he tweeted the tweet
"I own this."
"You're Canadian now, we all own it."
"Why are you erasing my culture?"
Theyre not Canadians
As an indigenous person, this was incredibly painful to listen to. Destiny, I strongly suggest avoiding these topics until you put in some effort to further educate yourself on indigenous history.
' as an'
No one cares
Fr he’s such a dumbass. He is saying that meat being a huge aspect in some indigenous cultures is somehow a negative thing equal to slavery is incredibly brain-dead. Because it’s definitely not like many tribes absolutely depended on specific types of meat to survive for hundreds to thousands of years.
first name : genetic
last name : chief
what a chad
Started as a lefty, started watching destiny after the jontron debate
Then I enjoyed his debates against Nick Fuentes and other alt-righters.
The dunking and insults are always fun, until eventually, I started to turn, because some of the arguments destiny used against them seemed really inconsistent with the facts of history, and inconsistent with other arguments. That's right, you've heard of people who got saved from the alt-right pipeline by people like destiny, I'm the opposite.
Until the lefty arc happened, and now I'm back. One other thing that turned me away from the left was the hypocrisy. "Hey yeah, why do some people get to arbitrarily have a spiritual connection and ownership of their land, but Europeans can't claim that?"
But if like Destiny says, we can work towards actually being all equal, then I'm back on board.
It seems like Rem is thinking deontologically and Destiny is thinking consequentially, Destiny is right here imo tho
I wish people would ground out and elucidate what they mean by colonial epistemology or ethics instead of just using it as some way to gatekeep any ethical debate about veganism.
"their identities are tied to the land they own"
Most Natives I know would slap the shit out of Rem for saying some shit like this. In most traditional Native cultures there is no such thing as land ownership. Also tribal leadership is rampant with corruption.
Destiny's destiny was destined to deem rem destitute....in this debate
53:25 rem said doo doo debate lost. He almost had me convinced
Destiny endorsed cultural genocide in this debate
Rem endorsed LITERAL slavery, blood and soil ethnonationalism and monarchy to the detriment of the entirety of Canada and against the popular will of indigenous people "because of spiritual significance" in this debate.
destiny was destroyed 'a lot' in this debate
I'm not even vegan and Destiney still won me over in this debate.
Destiny played league in this debate
Destiny censored his inappropriate language in this debate.
What is destiny’s twitter? What profile is he using?
The void I think
Rem tone polices in this debate.
Destiny destroys a native tribe for a pipeline in this debate
The oil pipeline, aka "untapped resources" while his people are "suffering and dying" at 43:50
Is Destiny a vegan now?
I am sorry, but to pretend the indigenous humans that lived in America and Canada before the Europeans, were peaceful and didn't kill other tribes indiscriminately, is pathetic.
Rem does not get enough REM sleep in this debate
Respect hereditary leaders but also implement the will of the People. These two ideas do not compute, rem is imposing democracy by this poll
wow Rem tone policing OMEGALUL
I hate the trope of the noble savage. To acknowledge a people as equally human to yourself you need to acknowledge their ability to just be assholes. They weren't a people in touch with nature any more then the Gaul were. They fought among each other for the exact same petty reasons all other tribes did and the entire use every part of the animal thing only happened in places where food was scarce enough that they had no other choice.
Destiny: The ChapoTrapHouse guy's tweet of the image from Salo was bad because it could be seen as homophobic and he has a responsibility to not post that. I don't need to make the case WHY the tweet is homophobic, but some people could interpret it that way even if it was just meant as a jab against Buttigieg for reasons other than his orientation.
Also Destiny: I don't care if my tweets about native people are seen as racist, because I didn't mean it that way and it was meant as an attack against this person for other reasons. I don't care how people feel about it.
Tone policing for me, not for thee
That’s because the Chapo tweet could *only* be interpreted as homophobic. You can skip this next long paragraph if you don’t need convincing of that.
The only way you could not see the usage of this film as a homophobic attack against Buttigieg is if you’re unfamiliar with the source material. I understand the movie and the book it was heavily inspired by very well. While Pasolini introduces themes surrounding fascism as the backdrop in which the events of the film happen (the book has the protagonists being from different positions of high authority in late-1700s society-a duke, judge, banker, and priest-as opposed to fascist officials), the major themes of both works are on the exploration of sexual depravity-one of the things it challenges the consumer on is to judge what sexual acts are immoral and have us question why through provocative imagery. This is done from mundane sex all the way to the gay-scat-torture-murder-rape of children. The protagonists literally say that vaginal sex is undesirable. Sexual deviancy arguably *is* the focal issue of the works. I have NEVER seen _Salò_ or _120 Days of Sodom_ used against a straight person in my entire life and could never imagine how it could ever be used that way. If they were wanting to draw parallels between fascism and Buttigieg, they could have used literally any fascistic-themed work more aptly than this one. To deny that _Salò_ is primarily about sexual depravity and say “it’s just a critique of fascism” is to have never even read the synopsis.
Now, for Destiny’s tweet, he was very clearly saying that you can’t use the fact that something’s a cultural tradition to justify doing an immoral behavior. Full stop. He never made a statement on all Native culture, or even any specific Native culture. He was using a provocative example of something we should all agree is immoral-slavery-and fitting it into the logical framework laid by the person who tweeted him originally in order to demonstrate the absurdity of their argument. You’ll have to tell me what part of his tweet was racist in some way.
Also, Destiny said that he understands the tone police argument, but he was debating Rem that his tweet wasn’t incorrect. Chapo’s wasn’t about tone policing, it was just homophobic.
@@Kyle_Schaff "That’s because the Chapo tweet could only be interpreted as homophobic." Lol dude this is 100% wrong and you even disproved it yourself with the next paragraph. I know you think you were trying to prove yourself correct, but you instead made a case for why the Chapo dude himself said it wasn't homophobic.
Regardless, Destiny's argument wasn't even that it was homophobic (since he himself wasn't familiar with the film or the themes either, and just saw a naked dude being tortured and uncharitably flung the accusation), but that it could be interpreted as such and that on a large platform it's irresponsible to do post that and not take into account people's interpretations and the effects of it. Hell, he even went on to say that he could see Steven Crowder or any other conservative homophobe making that tweet. Well, a lot of racist pro-colonialists and pro-genocide people make the same arguments Destiny made in the tweets and this conversation with Rem.
Making me watch an hour of REM content is liek my mom force feeding me brusselsprouts. stop.
in this debate.
Step off the sprouts, bro
Eat your veggies, bro
Maybe, I know this is a 5head take, but.... You could just not watch.....
but sprouts are good for you.
They suck boiled but really good roasted with olive oil
Steven should change his name to Manifest Destiny.
7 minutes in and this guy is saying “yes they practiced slavery, but not that bad of a version of slavery” wonder how this is gonna go
Unpopular opinion indigenous people aren't really indigenous people
Destiny has a Twitter account?
I'm a native from California and my great great grandpa bought my great great grandma for 28 salmon and a canoe lol
OOF these are bad takes from destiny, cultural genocide is not the way to go
Destiny colonizes in this debate