For all you “Anti Range” EV zealots that are against 1000 mile range. The Company Aptera has designed a solar EV that is rated to do 1000 miles and has a hatch tent mod (for overlanding). Happened a lot sooner than I thought! So what do all of you have to say now???
I'm pretty sure if that LC had a better driver, he'd have done MUCH better. The lack of throttle control, and the constant pausing on/off throttle was stalling his momentum.
Absolutely. His Landcruiser is heavy and every time he stops he loses all the momentum that would have pushed him easily over the bog holes. Not arguing that the Rivian does an excellent job. But it would have been good to see a more balanced comparison with capable and experienced drivers.
@@DownthunderAu Much lower power to weight ratio than the rivian due to the lack of power. I think the rivian is heavier because of its heavy batteries, but has so much more power and torque.
@@theKylenator Can't agree more. I'd bet the farm this was staged. The LC100 driver kept stopping as soon as he got momentum. He actually had to work at getting stuck. Note how he was driven up against the wall to his left, getting it stuck and the wheels spinning, then turning left away from the wall after it was already stuck. After the LC100 made it up the easier path, the guy can be heard in the video saying "he kept stopping...". Also see the Tacoma without lockers that wasn't stopping made it easily. Nothing against EV trucks. I have one on pre-order, but mentioning this as a comparison of vehicles based on this result is nonsense.
@@zotheneq You owe me a farm! Here's the video link to our trip. We take 20 vehicles through Anza Borrego and just happened to stumble across these two. They didn't have a camera crew and didn't even record each other with their cell phones. ua-cam.com/video/POrgz5l5N8w/v-deo.html
@@JonDZ_Adventuring jerry cans count as refueling which misses point of the desire for 1000-1500 range without have to refuel/recharge, etc. so the gas engine can’t meet those needs either.
@@wanttoplae not sure if you knew, but people have been going on 1000+ mile expeditions in places like Australia for over 50 years. I don’t believe they even have gas stations out there. It’s all done via Jerry can. Wouldn’t that be cool if an EV could do the same? I guess you don’t want that. Are you anti EV? And to answer your original question, a 2021 Ford F-250 tremor with a Diesel engine and a 48 gallon gas tank has a 1300 mile range on the highway. But understand that exploring off pavement, you won’t get that kind of range. With ICE and EV, you can easily see that range get divided by 4.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring definitely not anti-EV as I have two Rivian reservations. I’m going to stop participating in conversation because I think you keep missing the point, even with your Australia example jerry cans are the equivalent of refueling. Using that analogy then EVs can get the same range as stated in the video because they can stop and recharge right?
As someone who has been to Diablo drop off many times I have a few things to say. 1) it is a lot steeper and rutted out than the camera makes it seem. 2) Im impressed by how easily the Rivian went up it. 3) If the landcruiser had front lockers like the Rivian, then it would have gone up. Ive seen stock rubicon jeeps go up it just as easy. 4) i am very happy to see electric trucks on the market and i cant wait to own one soon.
when the price comes down on electrics (if it comes down?) they will be great off road, incredible low RPM torque and so on. But for $70,000 for a Rivian I'll keep my 1999 Land Cruiser I paid 11k for last year.
And then just get a front locker for the your 1999 Landcruiser 😃. By the way, the guys that own the beige Landcruiser are getting a solid front axle swap. Should be interesting 😃
The other thing to remember is that electric is cheaper to operate. You can spend $10k more on an ev and it costs the same on your wallet since gas goes from $400/month to $30/month.
I paid 4500 for my land cruiser (2000 with atrac), but I might get rid of it after I get a rivian. Given the LC should sell for 20K, that helps bring the price of the rivian to reasonable levels.
In my opinion, drivers made the most difference in these 3 vehicles comparison. The LC 100 driver was off the throttle at the worst possible moments for A-Trac to function.
The Rivian will be my first electric vehicle purchase as my daily driver, not sold on it yet for overlanding (how would it be recharged during extended trips over rural areas?). I have been waiting for the Cyber truck....and still waiting, by the time it comes out the market will be flooded with several other proven options.
@jcberb I would suggest we need to change our thinking of "recharging". Furthermore, a lot of small rural towns, even here in Western Australia, actually do have charging infrastructure already, so it's not as greater issue as one might at first think.
Thanks for this. Nice to see the Rivian in action. I love the concept. Sorry to debunk your commentary, but the Rivian was predictably good. Massive torque and computer controlled independent motors? C'mon, it was always going to be a game changer. No surprises there. However, the 100 series was driven very poorly, I would even suggest it was staged. Unless they were a complete 4WD newbie this footage was a farce. No one with reasonable experience drives that badly. I complete similar slopes in my 100 series, no problems. Key components to success are: tyre pressures, line taken, momentum and appropriate throttle. I didn't see sufficient evidence of any of these being applied. Note: Adding diff lockers makes a world of difference. The 100 series is still a weapon when set up correctly. I agree that EV 4WD has a long way to go (pun intended) before being considered for overlanding. Big range is essential for that, especially if you want to do a desert crossing in Australia in safety. EV 4WD is not there yet. Looking forward to the next instalment of that genre. Cheers.
Rivian is excellent, but actually the torque thing about EV's is a big misconception. Torque at wheels in an EV isn't that massive by any means, because people always forget that torque in an ICE vehicle is measured at the engine flywheel. That means it gets multiplied by the transmission to the wheels. For example if you have 3.0 1st gear ratio, 2.0 low range ratio, and 4.0 axle ratio in the diff, you will have 3 x 2 x 4 = 24 times the engine torque at the wheels in the ICE 4x4. That already surpasses many EV's that have no gearing at all. Of course the electric motor has excellent torque, but because they usually don't use gears, the actual torque at the wheels isn't necessarily that high. If you have enough torque to break the traction, any more won't benefit. The Land Cruiser in the video didn't fail because of lack of torque, it failed because of lack of lockers.
Range is not the issue at all. 300 to 500 mile range is sufficient. The newer vehicles charge at 15m to 20m. The problem is that nation-wide charging station deployment is not as prolific as gas stations, especially in remote places with few locals. Engineering Explained traveled nearly a 1000 miles in one day with a Tesla and it was completely doable, with a reasonable amount of overhead time. Of course, 4 electric motors is superior to anything you can get with a single engine. And you have the incredible torque advantage. Plus, your gas vehicles are extremely inefficient in low speeds, unlike your electric vehicles. Electric definitely has much advantage.
Range is not an issue for the daily driver, but when I get far enough from Los Angeles, I've traveled those 300 to 500 miles. If range was doubled or tripled then there would be more flexibility and peace of mind. I've been thinking heavily of a 240 KWh adventure trailer battery pack. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe a portable battery pack can get loaded into the bed of the Rivian. Sounds like a good solution to get the best of both worlds. that 240 Kwh battery is going to weight 3000 lbs. though.
@@DavidDLee we went to Death Valley 2 weekends ago. 30 to 50 miles separated us from even a gasoline station. From the Trona Pinnacles to Lone Pine, CA is 102 miles. That’s just not feasible, not sure if it ever will be. More range is the answer. What do you have against it?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Because (1) it's not necessary: what's wrong with driving ~200 miles from LA to Olancha, CA and recharging for 15 minutes, then having ~300 miles of range to go offroad with? (2) The alternative of carrying more batteries or a range extender is possible, but why would you do this? (3) A Jeep also has a limited range, perhaps 400 miles in the best-case. When you go offroad, it will not be very efficient. I don't think anyone carries gas for 1,500 miles.
There are two factors here. Compare a state of an art tech like the rivian to a state of an art 300 series LC. That's a fare fight. And second. Let's take that rivian offroading 22 years from now with an 2021 LC 300. Let's see which one is still on the road and still with all original parts performing as if they were still new.
That Tacoma crushed it! The Rivian was really impressive. Personally I think I'd be OK with only 400-500 miles of range since so far I haven't ever needed to actually use extra fuel (always been able to get to a gas station), but unless you can get to a level 3 charger between your off road travels you're going to have a bad time, so it's definitely limiting your options.
This video was also about how effective traction control has become! The Tacoma with no rear locker, killed it! Add a rear locker to that setup and its even more capable. Impressive stuff! I want to see what other programs the Rivian could run. I believe they’re able to rotate like tanks, but how about a “slither mode”? It would slither up obstacles like a snake 🐍
@@mrpmj00 But the reason that's OK for ICE vehicles is that the infrastructure is in place to be able to refuel anywhere. Without such an infrastructure you need more range out of the vehicle to support long-distance travel.
MotorTrend had no trouble charging the Rivian on their journey across the US on the Trans-America Trail. The infrastructure is there and it's getting better all the time.
I read the article. They used public L2 and L3 charges, as well as Rivian installed charge stations on the trail. Rivian purposely built those charges were infrastructure didn’t exist. So, I wouldn’t say “no problem”. The rivians took 43 days to complete the trail. On average, it takes a stock gasoline/diesel 4WD 28 days. You’re right, with better infrastructure and improved battery technology with 1000 mile range and 5 minute charging, I think EV off-roaders will do it even quicker than ICE off-roaders. I wonder if the 15 extra days were from charging the Rivians.
Glad you had the disclaimer regarding the Atrac. Having owned both vehicles with the locker and the Atrac, I would definitely go with the Atrac.... or both
If I didn’t do that disclaimer, and showed how awesome a trac is, I don’t think anyone would believe me. People hear locker, and they think it’ll get up anything. A triple locked Landcruiser would be a different story though.
The LC100 I came across seems to behave just like the other ones. It did a lot better than my Honda, the problem is the terrain is very very soft. He actually tried using more momentum than the Rivian.
With infrastructure put in place and a 3 minute refuel time to get 450 miles range, I’ve never had to resort to my 2 gallon fuel pack. Did you watch the video? Do you know why I’d need 1500 miles range to go “overlanding”? Do you know what “overlanding” is? There’s no reason for your question…. unless you didn’t watch the video.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I did watch the video fully (I have a Tacoma and a 100 Series) but I was thinking... he'd have to go deliberately off the beaten path to need 1500 miles of range in an ICE. So I was wondering if you carried a lot of jerry cans or what not. Your point with the infrastructure on EV charging is well taken, but in the context of my above question, it's why asked for clarification on what you meant.
awesome video Jon! talk about right place right time. cool to see the rivian in action. espeically as a share holder lol. But, to be fair I think the 100 series definitely would have made it had it carried the same moment the rivian came in with. from where the video started, it seemed like the 100 came in almost at a crawl. idk i wasnt there, but i do think the landcruiser would have made it up. Then again.... you already know where my biased stands lol!!
Thanks Cruiser Shooter! I cut out the approach footage because I was trying to keep the video time down. The Landcruiser made multiple attempts and used even more momentum than the Rivian and Tacoma. I hear that this video is circulating on a Landcruiser Facebook page, and what people might not understand is that this is very soft terrain. Traction control helps here. I made sure to explain that, because I knew no one would believe me otherwise. The Rivian actually lets off on the accelerator because hitting the rut, so it didn’t carry momentum throughout.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Also things like tire pressures can make a massive difference, so should not make too far conclusions from these. But the main point right about this is that indeed, electric vehicles in theory have all the possibilities to be good off roaders, power, very precise motor control, and they don't need air, so if well insulated, they could do deeper water crossings than ICE's. The only downsides of EV's for offroading are high weight, poor cold climate operation and somewhat limited operating range if you want to go to a really long distance travels, like accross a desert or in remote areas.
ATRAC is a game changer. My first gen sequoia will go some many places with 33in tires ATRAC and some skid plates. And it’s huge and perfect for sleeping in week long hunting trips in the mountains it Never fails me.
It's interesting how a 200 series LC would cope with this. I think the main problems with LC100 here were the weight of the car, absence of A-trac and driver's experience... That said Rivian is 400kg heavier than LC100.
@@clesioescorcio7428 I agree and street tires do not help either. Seemed that air pressure was not lowered. Either way I'll take the LC100 because it will outlast that Rivian. A colleague of mine bought an LC100 new and currently has 595,000 miles zero issues and looks amazing for the year.
Problem is you won't carry momentum everywhere you go wheeling. And starting at over 3.5 tons, you will get stuck and sunk. Need to test on angle at full stop and restart without momentum.
Great video! The Rivian might not be suited to Overlanding due to lack of range, but it is definitely a great Offroad monster. What would offroad tires do to it's range? Sorry Jon, you probably won't ever see 1,000 miles of range in an EV. (Maybe a semi truck?) As you know, it's feasible to carry the weight of extra gasoline or diesel but it's not feasible to carry an extra 1,000 lb battery to double your range. Then you'll have to do the calculus of how much that weight from the extra battery is depleting your current range 🤣. It's much more cost effective and beneficial to society to implement better infrastructure. This is why you can live with your Honda not having 1,000 miles of range. For overlanding, I believe hybrids are the answer. It will be decades before there is proper electric infrastructure. Not because technology does not allow it, but because politics will not allow it. We have a different president every 4 years how the hell do we expect to get anything done... Hybrids will fill the gap between the lengthy gasoline to electric infrastructure transition. Oh is it a coincidence that the vehicle that will fill this gas to electric gap is both gas and electric!? Haha. I would love a beefed up prius for overlanding. 4 electric motors and a battery. Plus a small 4 cylinder engine only weighs 250 lbs. P.S. Every time you hear "game changing" or "ground breaking" or "disruptive" in the automotive world its just a bunch of fancy journalism. Innovation moves slow in the automotive world.
Well said AJ!!! Your comment is everything I’ve been thinking about, it’s just that I tried to whip a video together quickly to please the UA-cam algorithm Gods and to be honest I didn’t give this video too much thought before making it, There are some promising future battery tech. But you’re right! Hybrids are the answer. Well… actually….. gas generators are the answer! Ford has a pending patent on a portable gas generator that slips under the bed between the rear wheels. What a simple and effective solution to “hold people over” while infrastructure is improved.
To answer your question, I heard that the Rivians during the Rebelle rally with offroad tires only went around 100 miles during the mojave road. They had semi trucks with battery packs to recharge all the EVs that participated. What did this trail do to my Honda? It killed my range too! With offroad modifications, I can get just over 400 miles range. I burned through it all, but had my Jerry can to fall back on. I probably used a 1/4 tank of gas on that sand dune though 😃.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring at least do research before putting out nonsense like 100 miles of range. It was diminished from the EPA of course, but it was just shy of 200 on average during that event. I do agree that a small compact generator like that may be a great stop gap solution while the infrastructure is being built though.
@@MorganWalser I looked it up but that I information isn’t public, at least not by an internet search. Now, since you said for me to do my research, I think you owe us all your sources. Link em!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring just reread the article, I was mistaken. They did over 190 miles a day on average, only charging at the end every day. They estimate that it would've lasted until around 227 miles before being fully drained.
The out back wilderness did not make it up the hard line. But I do have a video with the Outback wildness making it up the same line as the land cruiser. The video is called “21 vehicles down the Diablo drop off”.
The Tacoma has Multi Terrain Select (MTS) and not A-TRAC. The difference is MTS allows you to adjust the aggressiveness of the traction system. We do this trail every October and enjoy playing on the diablo drop off. Keep up the great videos.
I am with you Jon on the issue of range, a coworker/buddy of mine and I started talking about electric vehicles and them being the future I pointed out that I would need to have range because of where I go there are no gas stations nearby and if I were to drain the batteries, how do I get back out without having to haul some form of power generation with me and how long it would take to get enough charge at that, so yes, 1000 mile range minimum for suren
I just watched Donald’s (Softroadingthewest) and just realized you’re the guy that made his emblem. Good work with that! Yeah, I received some messages on Instagram from people that actually tried to go on road trips, and they too said they’d like to see 1000 mile range minimum. Some are commenting that’s it’s not necessary, but they’re also probably not doing what we’re doing. They might not realize that traversing 25 rough miles will use a lot of energy (watts) to get through. Also, how many carry an extra 10 gallon Jerry cans on long adventures? Part of overlanding is being prepared for the worst, so … im just bewildered that anyone would be opposed to more range, or thinking that 300 miles is enough.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Thank you! And It's those darn on-roaders that only consider going on well groomed gravel roads as going off-road lol. It's only when you are out at places like central/eastern Oregon on a 2 track that used to be a wagon trail with no gas for 100 miles around that you start thinking of those extra 10 gallons will make or break you for getting to one of those stations. I for one have always been overly prepared ever since I got my second vehicle (70 Bug) and so yes range is key for everything, when you get out on those 2 tracks you are using 2-3X more energy (whether it be using a liquid fuel or electron fuel). Also there is the fact that you stated of waiting for charging, unless you are at a Tesla supercharger station (even though those take roughly 20 min to fully charge a vehicle still). For a trip to, lets say, Anaheim from Portland, you would be adding about 3-4 hours on a standard charger to the 16 hour drive just to recharge.
You will not be ready to pay the price for 1000 mile range, so it will most likely not happen. Or perhaps somewhere 2030 where batteries are super cheap, not much earlier. They will stay weigh a lot. Better keep your big silly truck for the weekends and actually use something efficient and electric as your daily driver. That will be much easier and comfortable to drive and save you money.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring What I have been doing in terms of "Overlanding" as a European is going across lots of countries into other continents (for us mostly Asia), most of the time with diesel Toyota's. And some of the routes we have travelled, other people already did with an electric car. Mostly a very normal road car, so they didn't do the offroad parts we did, but they went far with cars like a Tesla Model S but also with much smaller range cars like the Nissan Leaf. Did it cost more time? Yes, definitely, but they got everywhere.
the real interesting thing for me will be whats the true range if youre out running inclines and trails. 300mi range is assuming youre on a paved surface going flat but it suffers huge drop offs when youre climbing or towing. Would I get one of these trucks personally? Considering its $4 gal gas under since Biden, my current Silverado is costing me about $300mo in fuel each month. The savings on electricity vs gasoline would help offset the cost of the vehicle and if I wanted to go running trails all weekend I wouldnt be above bringing a gas powered generator to charge up if I needed to. I like the 7k weight and its ability to climb and get traction, Id buy one for its utility, I couldnt care less about the "save the planet" aspect.
Infrastructure is hard to ignore. If we were at a point where recharging was just as quick as filling up on gasoline, then I’d take the Rivian. A wrangler is too uncomfortable, and there’s so much storage in the Rivian. Frunk, Brunk, Bed, pass through. Tank mode. The Rivian has a lot going for it.
You’re forgetting that EVs can carry solar panels and charge themselves in the middle of nowhere. Of course it takes a long time, but for overlanding it could work. Infrastructure can also be setup in the middle of nowhere with solar without need to haul gas there, making it more viable for overlanding.
Solar panels would be a great idea to carry around. I don't know if the technology is there to make it super practical though. Would you have to stop for a day and let it charge? Or would it only take a few hours? I don't know.
@@chrisnah8423 Sun shines at about 1 kW per square meter. Panels can recover about 20% of that, so 200 Watts / m^2. If you have 100 kWh battery pack, it will take 100 000 / 200 = 500 hours to charge it with 1 m^2 solar panel. If you have 2 square meters of panels, "only" 250 hours . . . 😂 With 20 m^2 of panels (that is a lot), you can do it in 25 hours, so in 3-5 days if you are on desert in perfect weather.
I agree that the range on the Rivian is not a problem (my FJ gets maybe 200 to 230 miles on a tank). They’ve already overlanded from South America to California with the 300 range battery pack (on option is the 400 mile range pack). They’ve done the Trans America trail. They’ve also done the Rebelle rally. The problem is the infrastructure (not enough reliable non tesla chargers). You keep bringing up Death Valley. Once the electrify America chargers in Baker start working (they seem to have been under construction for the past 1-2 years) that will give your 300 to 400 miles of range to get in and around death valley. Looking on the maps there are also other places in Death Valley to top up and charge. Would be interesting to have stationary panels with batteries and chargers in the middle of some of these trails. They would be self sufficient since they just need to collect sun, convert to onsite batteries, then those power the chargers. Would work well considering Rivian is just making 2 Riv’s a day but not viable when a whole group of Rivians come to charge. So far I’ll keep my tesla as a daily driver and keep using my FJ for off-road until I see in the real world how viable the Rivian is.
Death Valley was 180 offroad miles and 613 onroad miles done over 3 days and 3 nights on a very tight schedule, so I feel the range is definitely a problem. It’s too hard to ignore. We had two vehicles with double flat tires. I was going to escort them to the closest major town which would have been a 250 mile detour. Luckily, someone volunteered to look after them. Unexpected things will happen, and all I want is more range to account for this. More range would solve a lot of problems. But I’ll agree, with less range, you can go on overlanding trips. You just need lots of time. Sounds perfect for someone that’s retired, and really patient.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I don’t know where your trail starts and stops for Death Valley because I don’t have enough friends with vehicles capable of overlanding that I can go with… but from where I live in OC to Baker it’s about 146 miles away. With a 300 mile range Rivian that means I’d have about 50% of my charge by the time I get to Baker. I can plug into one of the evgo fast chargers in Baker and get 240 to 270 miles of range in about 30 minutes. Enough time to get out, stretch legs, and use the bathroom. If I decided to stop and get food then I’d have the full 300 miles of range by the time I’m done eating. That leaves another 240 to 300 miles of range to cover the 180ish miles off-road. You’d still have enough electricity to control your HVAC if camping in the truck to stay cool or warm. You’d have even more range if you had the 400 mile range battery. Now if you wanted enough batteries to get 1000 miles of range… could you imagine how much weight you’d be hauling around and off-roading with? Imagine getting it stuck in the sand and attempting to have a Taco recover a truck with 1000 miles worth of batteries?
Agree with your review there is no question the Rivian's capability but I'm never giving up my built 200 Series Land Cruiser cause like you its a range issue and freedom to explore with my other Land Cruiser brothers roaming the country without worrying about the support of the electric infrastructure to support recharging them. For you average weekend camper explorer maybe the Rivian will fit their needs I definitely feel like its the best electric option on the market.
Sorry but does any ICE car have a 1000 mile range. I don't see any gas stations from where you are standing either. I understand your point but I feel like you're asking for just a little bit much. I think 400 mile range is going to be the sweet spot in the coming years. I'm waiting for a couple improvements before I pick up my electric vehicle
That's what I'm waiting for, enough improvements. I'd be more than happy to switch. I'm looking forward to see what happens in the next 5-7 years. Oh, and to answer your question: Yes, there are several ICE vehicles with 1000+ mile range. The Diesel Ford Tremor F-250 has around a 1300 mile range with it's 48 gallon gas tank.
WOW, great content as always. I wonder how long it would take to fast charge at 1500 mi battery. Then again you’d only be charging from maybe 30% to full which is still a lot. Must be weird going up that hill in total silence 😂
It appears that most batteries will charge to around 80% pretty rapidly. The last 20% taking a lenghty amount of time. In a 1500 mile range battery that would still be 1200. I was watching a TFL video where they charged a Tesla with a 240V gas generator. I figure a 12000 watt generator could probably charge up in about 30 hours.... jeebus :(. I wonder how much gas that would take. I think I'm liking the idea of a 240 Kilowatt battery adventure trailer more :P haha!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring If you want to charge 1500 miles (with a big 4x4) in less than half an hour you need the power connection of a small town. It is ridicilous and will not happen, because nobody will want to pay for such a connection. Fast charging is typically more expensive than charging at home because of the infrastructure, and it will be very expensive with these high demands.
Jon, I think you have the wrong idea. SOME electric vehicles have differentials. Tesla cars with dual-motor AWD feature open differentials at the front and rear drive units. Electric vehicles featuring a similar drive unit layout that combines the differential with the electric motor will have differentials. Like most vehicles that have open differentials, such vehicles rely primarily upon brake-based traction control to transfer power side-to-side to the drive wheels with grip. If you don't believe me, you can look up how Unplugged Performance recently released a limited-slip differential available for specific Tesla vehicles. Obviously, this Rivian pickup does not have the same problem as the drive unit design used in Tesla cars, assuming it has independent electric motors per drive wheel as you mentioned.
You could technically put a 2-3 ton trailer on the back to get an extra 1000 or more miles. Put some solar panels aswell and they'll charge while you're moving.
Now show me a 100 series being driven at a slow constant speed. Even without A-TRAC it should get up there. I'm just waiting for the R1S to be available here in Australia. Ideally with 5-600 miles of range. It's pretty rare for me anyway to not want to stop driving for a bit after 500 miles of constant driving, and it's seriously rare to not see electricity for that far. Even on the Canning Stock Route, you'd find a way to charge if you're happy to wait around for a bit, and if you're doing the Canning Stock Route and aren't prepared to take it easy once or twice you are not going to have a great time.
would love to get better range out of my 4Runner, but it's got a V8 and she's a little thirsty. Seems something odd may have even going on with that 100. The Taco walked right up it. It's goin to be exciting to see what the future brings for powertrains. Personally, I'd love to see a plug-in hybrid. Something I can drive to work in full EV mode and charge at home throughout the week. Then when it comes trip time run it in hybrid mode and get 25-30 mpgs, but still have plenty of power and low end torque when needed. A 4Runner plug in hybrid with lockers could easily have 400 hp, 50 miles EV only range, and do 25-30 mpg highway.
The Jeep Wrangler 4xE has 21 miles EV range and then switches to a 2.0 turbo that gets 20 mpg highway. That 2.0 turbo power plant really concerns me, because on the highway with high winds it’s affected by drag. The turbo is constantly spooling. On a trip to Colorado, we had a Gladiator 3.6 V6 , my 3.5 V6 Honda and a Jeep Wrangler 2.0 turbo. At 80 mph in high winds, the gladiator and I were getting 18.5 mpg, the Wrangler 2.0 turbo was getting 12 mpg!!!! I’m very curious what the true highway MPG is on the 4xE, because an EPA 20 mpg highway is not impressive. I think Diesel hybrids make a whole lot of sense! The electric motors can counter the lag of the diesel motors until they can spool up.
Why does Rivan, not make a generator that mounts in the back of the truck bed but doesn't take up all the room then It can be fired up and continually charge the truck while you overland long distances. That way you have a kind of a hybrid type system that is always charging even when you are waiting for the vehicles in front of you to clear an obstacle.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring because then you have the hybrid when you need it and you don't carry around the weight the rest of the time. In essence. You drive around an electric vehicle. But for those time when you need to go on a road trip or long distance. You turn your vehicle into a hybrid. Modular.
All electric vehicles have differentials, you still need to split torque to either wheel at different speeds. The rivian does not have differentials just a single speed transmission for each wheel.
My personal ice car, which is a Honda Passport with aggressive all-terrain tires, a cargo carrier, a 4-1/4” net lift, and 450 lbs. of full time gear I lug around still has up to a 450 mile range from a 19.5 gallon gas tank. To archive 1500 miles I would have to carry 9 x 5 gal Jerry cans. 283 lbs from gasoline and 90 lbs from the metal Jerry cans. I’d roof mount 4 cans up top and 5 cans on a rear hitch mounted cargo basket.
yours must be really modified! My friends 5th Gen 4runner outfitted for overlanding could probably pull off 18-19 mpg if cruising on the highway at 65 mph. That’s 432 to 456 range. I did a real world MPG comparison between lots of different vehicles about 100 miles, half highway and half offroad: ua-cam.com/video/oahCSV3LSNs/v-deo.html In this test, my Passport got 16.1 mpg because half of it was offroad. My friends modified 5th Gen 4runner got 14.7, but there’s a stock 4runner TRD Pro that got 16.1 as well. Off-road terrain kills range. My 450 mile highway range shrinks to 150 miles offroad. I’m very excited to see what the future holds for EV overlanders and I’m confident Rivian is leading the way in making this happen! I can see E bikes becoming legit overlanding vehicles as well.
In order for an infrastructure to start....purchases of vehicles need to be there....so people should start buying electric.....as for having extended miles...try bringing a power station or generator. Just some food for thought.
When you have open front diff vehicle, you have to drive it like that. They unnecessarily made the Land Cruiser perform even worse than it in reality does by driving it like that. 😂 The Rivian did excellent in this kind of obstacle. But same way you could do a comparison on another kind of obstacle to find out how it does there. Would love to see them do a steeper hill climb with deep holes, where you need momentum and the 4WD system must react fast in order to maintain the momentum. Reactive systems tend to have difficulties in this kind of obstacle. Another good test would be very soft terrains so we could see how badly it sinks.
Great content once again, really enjoying seeing the comparison between different vehicles. It seems like brake based traction control systems do a better job on extremely slippery surfaces like this one than pure lockers. The "ABS-like" action of braking and un-braking produce more traction than purely locking up the wheels that a mechanical locker would. I was pretty amazed to see the amount of articulation on the Rivian with its fully independent air suspension. Do you know if the Rivian had its air suspension set to the max height? Based on what I have seen on land rover videos, raising air suspension to max height severely limits articulation. The Rivian didn't even lift a wheel!
NK, you make really good observations! I'm not sure what settings the Rivian was using, but I really see the potential. I've been commenting about "slither mode", like a snake! I'm sure there could be some really incredible programs a 4 motor system can perform.
So, owning a vehicle with traction control and having added a locker to it later, I can say this is not the case. At least with my generation traction control. In this video, IMHO, you are seeing the weakness of the open front diff of the 100, versus a very sophicsticated traction control that is likely so much more than brake assist, but rather motor on/off...thus never having to brake a wheel and possible stop momentum. But a double locked vehicle would definately be just fine and a vehicle with some sort of traction control on the front and a rear locker would have probably been okay...it's just in the situation where the rear tires are both doing all they can and need some help from the front...that open diff, just can't provide that help... All that said, once battery capacities, charging technologies and infrastructure get in place I will happily wheel an EV with a motor per wheel...we're still at least a vehicle generation away though...again IMHO...
The Rivian air suspension works differently than most others on the market (McLaren has used the same type of system), and it doesn’t suffer nearly as much of a penalty as the Range Rover, Tesla, or other air suspensions. Some cool info about how it works can be found if you search.
Well I guess it only shows that having a vehicle with (good) traction control on both axles is better than having just rear locker. You can clearly see that one of the front wheels of the TLC is spinning and the other not moving. Would really like to see a vehicle with 3 difflocks (G-Wagen, Rubicon, 70-series LC...) as a comparsion. Anyway the traction control systems are only used only on SUVs or recreational vehicles. Professional/military/emergency trucks (even the newest one which are just planned for production like the W464 or Ineos) still use mechanical difflocks.
Not really. Remember that the LC did not have a front locker. With no type of LSD or brake locking system on the front, as soon as one front wheel loses traction the front of the LC is useless. Whereas with four motors the Rivian could apply power to a front wheel that still has traction. This was essentially comparing a 4wd with rear locker and nothing up front to a 4wd with front and rear lockers- kind of a foregone conclusion. And on a hill climb in particular you want to be pulling as well as pushing. A couple of times you saw the effect of only pushing, it lifts the front which is already more susceptible to lifting due to the steepness of the incline, and also when only one rear wheel gets traction this will turn the vehicle off its line. Rivian vs front and rear locker vehicle like a Gladiator would probably be about the same. If locked before when approaching a feature the vehicle with front and rear lockers will probably look smoother actually because a system like Rivian’s requires slip for it to send power to the other wheel. Would also be interested to see a more articulated track. I really want to see what kind of droop the Rivian has when air sus is raised. Traditionally with air sus when you raise it it decreases it’s articulation. Wonder if Rivian has figured out a way around this or if it suffers from same problem.
Personal I'm already gonna get one with the infrastructure bill being passed and rivian making there adventure network and the possibility tesla will open up their chargers here in the US like they did in the Netherlands but, I can't wait to see what these companies do with carbon batteries and sold state batteries
Love the attitude Techblaze! There’s a lot to look forward to! Scroll through the comments and you’ll find a lot of people that think Lithium batteries is the only option and technology can’t advance any further. I know they’ll be proved wrong in the coming years.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring yep there is still a ton of other battery technologies in development can't wait to see where it goes especially where it goes with wearables, laptops, and phones
At about 02:00 into the vid, that first vehicle had street-pressure tires. The vehicle after that with all the stuff on top, he was aired down a bit. That's what made the difference.
@@SDwriter.and.surfer keep in mind, you’re comparing a shot from 100 feet vs. a shot from 5 feet. You’ll see more detail up close obviously. Look up my video “fins n thing south”, proof we all aired down.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I'll look that up, but also take you at your word. Thanks for clarifying. Good point on the distance factor. From a distance the white one's tires didn't seem to moosh hardly against the rocks and looked a little bouncier.
I think the Rivian was really impressive, but the Tacoma did a great demonstration that you don't necessarily need a locker if you have good traction control system. I think they're definitely will be a place for EV's in the future, but I agree that not quite yet. I think for a daily driver a 500mile range would be fantastic, that would make me happy and would make me consider one. And I actually live in an apartment where I don't have access to a charger, however if the infrastructure is good enough that I could charge at work, a 500-mile charge would go a full week. I think a 500-mile charge would be acceptable for overlanding, because most popular vehicles realistically barely get over 400. I know my 4Runner if I dip down low in the tank will do 400, but not much more. I do think we have a ways to go with infrastructure before this can be viable, hopefully the new bill in Congress addresses this, but I think the main obstacle is going to be charging time. If it takes 6 hours to charge, that's definitely a damper on everyone's adventure. It'd be nice to be able to plug it in, grab lunch, and come back to a full battery.
500 miles is enough for what? For daily life? Sure. But it’s not enough for what I talk about in this video. To charge 80% of a 1500 mile range battery with a level 3 charger it would take 80 minutes. That’s 1200 miles. You realize that technology will improve right? Honest question 🤣. I wonder if people had these same debates about cell phone battery capacity. “Do you know how much longer it will take to charge my phone with that bigger battery? Our phones only need to last 5 hours”.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring My Current phone charger is now 65 Watts . Charges 5000mah battery in 36 minutes (0-100). So I know the thrill and No this is not my First phone because tech is 'not there yet.' I think that's too harsh of you set a 1500 miles battery range and not get in on EVs. There are physical limits . 2021 Tesla Model X Performance has 0.39 KWh/mi Mileage , with 100 KWh pack gives 300 miles range . Which by extension of your needs requires 500KWH Battery ! .Fastest available supercharger v3 ( not widely available) does 250 KW (2 Hours to full charge with 100% efficiency) , that tesla can take in only 125KW (4 hours). add The Weight of the Battery . Tesla Cybertruck 500 Mile is supposed to come with 250 KWH pack , for that to get 1500 miles it would require 750KWH.
@@Y2Kvids My Original iPhone charged at 5 watts and had a 1400 mAh battery., and your current Phone charges at 65 watts and has a 5000 mAh battery. There’s nothing more for me to say.
I’m so confused why people think you’re claiming an ICE vehicle can-or should-get 1500mi on a single tank. There are two main reasons in my mind that an ICE vehicle doesn’t need 1500 (or even 1000) miles of range: 1) the infrastructure is in place to refuel almost anywhere 2) pound-for-pound, gasoline is so much more energy-dense than a battery that it’s actually feasible to carry extra fuel to get you double, triple, or n-tuple range-whatever you’re willing or able to carry.
Lol... you actually need at least 1000 miles of range or even 1500 miles, toyota sells the land cruiser prado and 200 in Australia with massive fuel tanks giving over 1000 miles of range, there are even custom longer range aftermarket tanks. The outback is gigantic and people travel everytime and everywhere.
@@faisal181 I don’t think anyone disagrees that EVs are good. I think many (myself included) are just saying they’re not there yet for long-range off-grid travel.
The Rivian is spectacular, but I wonder if it's really fair to compare a stock truck that isn't really publicly available to a stock truck that's been available for 20 years.
Totally agree re your point on electric trucks. Until they triple their range, they're not going to compete with diesel. Hydrogen may have a chance, if in theory you're able to carry an extra canister or three and refuel out bush.
The LC driver alternated between way too much throttle and none at all, picked bad lines, and I don't think he ever used the rear locker. The Rivian did great, but I don't think it's a fair comparison when the LC didn't even get traction control that year.
I need to adventure out with more land rovers. I know this guy with a brand new Discovery, but he brought his wife’s Volvo XC90 on our last trip. We had a Disco sport, but it’s similar to the Evoque. I don’t believe it has the same traction control system as a Disco.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring the range rovers have some of the best traction control out there. I love electric vehicles but their kerb weight and range are things that need to be worked on
Range rover has the best traction control on earth, there is litteraly no competition, I've seen range rover rock crawling with stock Street tires, trust me.
@@carholic-sz3qv Youre correct, however, electric motors have superior torque delivery and modulation. It all comes down to physics. Some of the downsides of the Rivian is its length, gear ratio and weight. Think about it, a range rover has engine that drives four wheels through several mechanical components with electronics and brakes which limit traction loss versus a vehicle with a high torque motor at a wide range of RPMs at EACH individual wheel. That inherently superior and easier to control when coupled with electronic controls.
@@HotHeadCJ lol..... low end torque is nothing when you don't have a good traction control, at Carwow on youtube a 85hp 2 cylinder fiat panda humiliated the tesla modelx for example. Land rovers with barely 100hp are fantastic offroad....
TFL did a video where they used a Honda 7000 watt gas generator on a Tesla, because California power grid black outs. To charge from near empty to a full battery would take 10 hours and 3.2 gallons of gas.
damn that Rivian was very impressive and surprisingly in its element with Electric motors having all the lowspeed torque. The quad motors are something really cool and honestly Honda as done something similar with the Acura "sport Hybrids" having two motors that can spin, drag, or true torque vector each rear in the the rear of the MDX and RLX sport hybrid or Front Wheels in the the NSX...Honda please start actually commiting to ideas!
I've been looking into Rivian. It's certainly appealing even with range limitations. This video shows how capable it can be! It's a lot easier to make electricity versus gasoline. Even in a pretty rural area several gas stations have EV charging available. But sadly everything is off the table until dealer lots start filling up again and who knows when that will be. Rivian did have a crazy IPO for number of vehicles produced.
The future is looking bright! How about a hybrid with 4 electric motors???? Or a giant sprinter van with 1500 miles range and 3 kilowatts of solar panels. I’ve dreamt of this stuff! Seeing how capable the Rivians quad motor system is in person instantly made me a believer in EV tech.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring We considered a Wrangler 4XE instead of the Bronco because I think it's a great option for many reasons. Drive around town on electric. Get on the highway and regular gas if you need it. Or get to the trail and do the trail in electric. Not have to put up with stinky loud exhaust. Sadly they aren't offered in 2 door. Something she's set on. Since it's a third car anyway it makes sense to get something more... pure? I know we have the FJ now but it's just so she has something until the Bronco shows up. Bronco has been in purgatory for the better part of a year. The way we have it specced it's cheaper than an Outback Wilderness anyway.
What people also need to think about is that a 180kwh battery pack takes a really really long time to charge. Especially if you don’t have access to anything more than 240V.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring yeah I agree, I also think there will be a limited consumer market for these as battery electric isn’t the best solution for larger vehicles. Something like my crosstrek yes, but a 4Runner or larger probably should be hybrid or hydrogen.
People who don't own electrics seem to not understand how much of a non-issue charging really is if you own your own home. It charges overnight easily? Using just the mobile charger that comes with it you can charge about 17 miles an hour. If you get a hardwired Rivian charger you can charge at 25 mph or so on 240v. Fast charger availability is getting pretty ubiquitous, although can still stand some improvement. Rivian's "adventure network" will hopefully plug a lot of the gaps in/near remote locations. Unless you do a lot of towing or driving in the seriously middle of nowhere then you'll be fine. You could easily handle a 200 mile/day commute so long as you're home for eight hours to sleep.
Landcruisers are all about durability. Not comparable yet. Do an overland from Cape Town to Cairo and see which one gets there first and at what cost. I'm sure the Rivian will be looking for a re-charge a few hours out of Cape Town. Cost is probably double for the Rivian too.
Some FYIs to share: - New Bronco has worse ICE range than EVs do. - Rivian and Jeep are both building charging stations in popular off-road areas. - Jeep did Rubicon Trail with limited plug-in range. Rivian and other EVs could do that, too, with no problem. - Long-term off-grid favors EV, since it effectively is multi-fuel (solar, house, commercial, generator...) - Nissan built their Re-Leaf concept because of the proven supply of EV over ICE - Generators for EVs are called "Range Extender", and one was used in the Dakar Rally a few years back. - If you're going into an area that doesn't have a charging station listed online, use your fricken phone and talk to other humans 😆. Call gas stations, ranger stations, and so on, until you get someone that will let you plug in your own extension cord.
More range means more battery heavier vehicle hence less range. Have to draw a line somewhere for now and focus on infrastructure where you get in and out in minutes. Tesla and some others are doing the same
Offroad tires, changed to aero dynamics also lead to less range. There’s a UA-cam channel that built an overland Tesla and the range was reduced by about half.
Trust me Jon. Trust me... When most EV's start touching the 500mile range, you'll start looking at them. You aren't biting now because you already have a bomb ass capable SUV. Plus you have alot invested in it. 1500miles will never happen in our lifetime. That's 20+yrs from now capability. 500miles is very good as a normal. 30-40mins to charge is a good deal. I am sure starting with the many 'more popular' off-road regions will start having "top off here" charging stations allowing you guys un-bothered off-road fun literally going over obstacles like it's nothing. It might even be too easy vs the fossil fuel alternative. Solar panel roof and hoods/attachments will be a thing giving you guys extra juice while climbing over the once "nearly impossible" to climb obstacles. I give you 8yrs to start wanting one of the EV (or even hybrid) offerings.
I’m pretty optimistic we can see super far ranges. 500 mile range is right around the corner with the cyber truck and 1000 mile range can’t be much further than that. I’ve been commenting with the idea of a adventure trailer with a 240 kw power pack 😃. Totally possible right?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring ooooooooo myyyy yessss a powered trailer would be dope! Especially while out there in the boonies. The cyber truck too yeeeeears to make. The technology is very expensive and they need to give us something to look forward to while we wait for whatever they already have available. I feel 1500miles won't happen in our lifetime is for a few reasons... - infrastructure like you said (the having to build more charging stations to justify even buying such vehicles without scaring potential customers away from buying EV's because worries about having enough charging stations - resources (I don't think we are able to even mine enough raw materials to make enough batteries to mass produce vehicles on such a scale. So I think we will be nickel and diming hybrids and full on EV's until all of that stuff "and more" is figured out. That's why I think the 1500mile range is too far down the road. Plus it gives manufacturers a 25-35-45yr plan to give them time to perfect or e chance the technology.
@@mrpmj00 There's a few long range diesel cars that can squeeze that out. Aptera will go 1000 miles on a single charge. And the rooftop solar would get you out of at least part of a trail of it had to. It has a plug to add extra solar if required like the mars rover in "The Martian".
The question is - will EVs have have better mileage off-road than highways? As far as I know EVs have lower mileage at high speed in highways. And actually efficient in cities driving under 30mph. How does it fair off-road where the speed is relatively low yet requires more occasional torque?
I heard that the EVs that ran through the Mojave road during this years Rebelle Rally with 350 mile range, only went about 100 miles before it was near empty. This is what I heard and can’t confirm through a Google search. At the end of the trail, they all recharged via a semi truck with a massive recharging station.
@@debendragurung3033 only a small percentage of the population would set off on a 130 mile offroad trail though. It’s only worrying for the small percentage of adventure travelers like myself 😃. If worse comes to worse. Someone with an EV can slowly recover range through solar panels. It will take a lot of them though, and it will depend on clear skies. I have a 100 watt solar panel I use to recharge my 1.4 kWh power station. The max It takes in is 80 watts per hour. It will take 17.5 hours of max sunlight to recharge. Let’s say I carried 4 portable solar panels, then it would take 4.3 hours. This would be to recharge my little 1.4kWh power station, which would be 1% of the current Rivian range, which would be about 1.5 onroad mile range, but about 1/4 offroad mile range. These are under ideal conditions. Someone like me just has to wait until EV technology will improve, WHICH will happen. One day, it will be viable for me.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Mountainous countries like Nepal, and perhaps Bolivia - where off-road is more like a necessity than adventure, the range it provides will still be a factor. 100 miles could still work out fine enough but anything below that may not be acceptable. And for how expensive the Rivian is for carrying a large battery pack, something economical would definitely have a smaller battery pack which may not work out. Vehicle such as Land cruiser - of course the cheaper 4 cylinder version has played important role in the life of hilly Nepal and especially Land cruiser for it's reliability and dependability. So economy at scale - we need something more reasonable too.
I want a plug-in hybrid Tundra. That's the end all be all. With a heavy duty e-cvt using a gigantic planetary gear set.... Thing would literally run for eternity :D
It would be much more feasible to develop equivalent infrastructure than to have 1500mile range. That kind of range would require entirely different energy storage technology.
For all you “Anti Range” EV zealots that are against 1000 mile range. The Company Aptera has designed a solar EV that is rated to do 1000 miles and has a hatch tent mod (for overlanding). Happened a lot sooner than I thought! So what do all of you have to say now???
I been keeping my eye on that company. Hopefully they come through, but probably a couple years out before being readily available.
Yeah but that car won’t let you off road
Haha😂😂 love it
The aptera sorry to say is a joke of an EV. Take a look at any of their recent videos.
Meh...
It's currently 'vaporware'.
I'll believe it, when I see a dozen of them on the trails, and running daily all across America.
This guy is insane. 1500 mile range?
I'm pretty sure if that LC had a better driver, he'd have done MUCH better.
The lack of throttle control, and the constant pausing on/off throttle was stalling his momentum.
Absolutely. His Landcruiser is heavy and every time he stops he loses all the momentum that would have pushed him easily over the bog holes. Not arguing that the Rivian does an excellent job. But it would have been good to see a more balanced comparison with capable and experienced drivers.
@@DownthunderAu Much lower power to weight ratio than the rivian due to the lack of power. I think the rivian is heavier because of its heavy batteries, but has so much more power and torque.
This. When you have open front diff vehicle, you have to drive it like that.
Exactly!!!
Its really not that steep. A 100 can walk up this with a little momentum.
A big part of those climbs comes down to momentum. Please tell the LC driver.
XD XD XD ua-cam.com/video/QeACRO3hoek/v-deo.html
Was going to say the same thing... this feels staged
@@theKylenator Can't agree more. I'd bet the farm this was staged. The LC100 driver kept stopping as soon as he got momentum. He actually had to work at getting stuck. Note how he was driven up against the wall to his left, getting it stuck and the wheels spinning, then turning left away from the wall after it was already stuck. After the LC100 made it up the easier path, the guy can be heard in the video saying "he kept stopping...". Also see the Tacoma without lockers that wasn't stopping made it easily.
Nothing against EV trucks. I have one on pre-order, but mentioning this as a comparison of vehicles based on this result is nonsense.
Wheres your brave buddy with he MDX. I wana see him momentum it
@@zotheneq You owe me a farm! Here's the video link to our trip. We take 20 vehicles through Anza Borrego and just happened to stumble across these two. They didn't have a camera crew and didn't even record each other with their cell phones. ua-cam.com/video/POrgz5l5N8w/v-deo.html
The LC made a huge mistake by stopping and losing momentum.
Can you go 1000-1500 in a gas vehicle without refueling?
Refueling at a gas station? Yes. Just carry as many Jerry cans as you’ll need. Every 1 gallon weighs 6.3 lbs.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring you completely failed to answer his Q. He asked *without* refueling and you started off with "Refueling ....".
@@JonDZ_Adventuring jerry cans count as refueling which misses point of the desire for 1000-1500 range without have to refuel/recharge, etc. so the gas engine can’t meet those needs either.
@@wanttoplae not sure if you knew, but people have been going on 1000+ mile expeditions in places like Australia for over 50 years. I don’t believe they even have gas stations out there. It’s all done via Jerry can. Wouldn’t that be cool if an EV could do the same? I guess you don’t want that. Are you anti EV? And to answer your original question, a 2021 Ford F-250 tremor with a Diesel engine and a 48 gallon gas tank has a 1300 mile range on the highway. But understand that exploring off pavement, you won’t get that kind of range. With ICE and EV, you can easily see that range get divided by 4.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring definitely not anti-EV as I have two Rivian reservations. I’m going to stop participating in conversation because I think you keep missing the point, even with your Australia example jerry cans are the equivalent of refueling. Using that analogy then EVs can get the same range as stated in the video because they can stop and recharge right?
honestly owning a 100 series, its epic. taken it offroad a couple of times. love it.
As someone who has been to Diablo drop off many times I have a few things to say.
1) it is a lot steeper and rutted out than the camera makes it seem.
2) Im impressed by how easily the Rivian went up it.
3) If the landcruiser had front lockers like the Rivian, then it would have gone up. Ive seen stock rubicon jeeps go up it just as easy.
4) i am very happy to see electric trucks on the market and i cant wait to own one soon.
when the price comes down on electrics (if it comes down?) they will be great off road, incredible low RPM torque and so on.
But for $70,000 for a Rivian I'll keep my 1999 Land Cruiser I paid 11k for last year.
And then just get a front locker for the your 1999 Landcruiser 😃. By the way, the guys that own the beige Landcruiser are getting a solid front axle swap. Should be interesting 😃
The other thing to remember is that electric is cheaper to operate. You can spend $10k more on an ev and it costs the same on your wallet since gas goes from $400/month to $30/month.
I paid 4500 for my land cruiser (2000 with atrac), but I might get rid of it after I get a rivian. Given the LC should sell for 20K, that helps bring the price of the rivian to reasonable levels.
@@rphotoboy you can swap a free rivian if you keep your LC for a couple of more years
In my opinion, drivers made the most difference in these 3 vehicles comparison. The LC 100 driver was off the throttle at the worst possible moments for A-Trac to function.
I explained that the 1999 Land cruiser doesn’t have A-trac, just a rear locker 😝
@@JonDZ_Adventuring duh, this is what happens when one watches UA-cam in bed with the sound off 😴
@@JonDZ_Adventuring the driver in the LC made many operator errors
@@JonDZ_Adventuring well compare that truck with new LC 300 then we'll see who teaches who
I think you could put a very inexperienced driver in the Rivian and it would still get everywhere.
The Rivian will be my first electric vehicle purchase as my daily driver, not sold on it yet for overlanding (how would it be recharged during extended trips over rural areas?). I have been waiting for the Cyber truck....and still waiting, by the time it comes out the market will be flooded with several other proven options.
240KW battery pack adventure trailer!!!!!
@jcberb I would suggest we need to change our thinking of "recharging". Furthermore, a lot of small rural towns, even here in Western Australia, actually do have charging infrastructure already, so it's not as greater issue as one might at first think.
@@DavidS-wm9ud that's both interesting and great to hear! Mostly up the coast of inland as well?
Thanks for this. Nice to see the Rivian in action. I love the concept. Sorry to debunk your commentary, but the Rivian was predictably good. Massive torque and computer controlled independent motors? C'mon, it was always going to be a game changer. No surprises there. However, the 100 series was driven very poorly, I would even suggest it was staged. Unless they were a complete 4WD newbie this footage was a farce. No one with reasonable experience drives that badly. I complete similar slopes in my 100 series, no problems. Key components to success are: tyre pressures, line taken, momentum and appropriate throttle. I didn't see sufficient evidence of any of these being applied. Note: Adding diff lockers makes a world of difference. The 100 series is still a weapon when set up correctly. I agree that EV 4WD has a long way to go (pun intended) before being considered for overlanding. Big range is essential for that, especially if you want to do a desert crossing in Australia in safety. EV 4WD is not there yet. Looking forward to the next instalment of that genre. Cheers.
Rivian is excellent, but actually the torque thing about EV's is a big misconception. Torque at wheels in an EV isn't that massive by any means, because people always forget that torque in an ICE vehicle is measured at the engine flywheel. That means it gets multiplied by the transmission to the wheels. For example if you have 3.0 1st gear ratio, 2.0 low range ratio, and 4.0 axle ratio in the diff, you will have 3 x 2 x 4 = 24 times the engine torque at the wheels in the ICE 4x4. That already surpasses many EV's that have no gearing at all. Of course the electric motor has excellent torque, but because they usually don't use gears, the actual torque at the wheels isn't necessarily that high. If you have enough torque to break the traction, any more won't benefit. The Land Cruiser in the video didn't fail because of lack of torque, it failed because of lack of lockers.
“Staged” 😂 oh the UA-cam community is adorable.
EV range is actually higher at slow speed, like overlanding. You do not burn fuel when you are "idling". Rivian should put the numbers.
Amazing! Love it.
Rivian ❤
Now Cybertruck release with 4 motors what will the weight difference between Rivian?
id like to know the range on these e.vs when going through boggy sand etc
The poor LC100 is probably doing 'one-wheel drive'... Both front wheels lose grip without A-TRAC and one of of rear wheels is in the air.
I’m curious about going down. Did you have any kind of hill decent or did you have to ride the breaks? That’s a lot of weight but I’m very impressed.
Range is not the issue at all. 300 to 500 mile range is sufficient. The newer vehicles charge at 15m to 20m. The problem is that nation-wide charging station deployment is not as prolific as gas stations, especially in remote places with few locals.
Engineering Explained traveled nearly a 1000 miles in one day with a Tesla and it was completely doable, with a reasonable amount of overhead time.
Of course, 4 electric motors is superior to anything you can get with a single engine. And you have the incredible torque advantage. Plus, your gas vehicles are extremely inefficient in low speeds, unlike your electric vehicles.
Electric definitely has much advantage.
Range is not an issue for the daily driver, but when I get far enough from Los Angeles, I've traveled those 300 to 500 miles. If range was doubled or tripled then there would be more flexibility and peace of mind. I've been thinking heavily of a 240 KWh adventure trailer battery pack. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe a portable battery pack can get loaded into the bed of the Rivian. Sounds like a good solution to get the best of both worlds. that 240 Kwh battery is going to weight 3000 lbs. though.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring No, the answer is that you charge in the town close to your destination in 15 minutes and, again, before leaving for home.
Even ICE vehicles don't have a 1500 miles range so that's just wishful thinking.
@@DavidDLee we went to Death Valley 2 weekends ago. 30 to 50 miles separated us from even a gasoline station. From the Trona Pinnacles to Lone Pine, CA is 102 miles. That’s just not feasible, not sure if it ever will be. More range is the answer. What do you have against it?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Because (1) it's not necessary: what's wrong with driving ~200 miles from LA to Olancha, CA and recharging for 15 minutes, then having ~300 miles of range to go offroad with?
(2) The alternative of carrying more batteries or a range extender is possible, but why would you do this?
(3) A Jeep also has a limited range, perhaps 400 miles in the best-case. When you go offroad, it will not be very efficient. I don't think anyone carries gas for 1,500 miles.
7k lbs!? My goodness it needs 4 motors!!! Super cool video 😎
There are two factors here. Compare a state of an art tech like the rivian to a state of an art 300 series LC. That's a fare fight. And second. Let's take that rivian offroading 22 years from now with an 2021 LC 300. Let's see which one is still on the road and still with all original parts performing as if they were still new.
What trails are you doing that need a 1500 mile range?
That Tacoma crushed it! The Rivian was really impressive. Personally I think I'd be OK with only 400-500 miles of range since so far I haven't ever needed to actually use extra fuel (always been able to get to a gas station), but unless you can get to a level 3 charger between your off road travels you're going to have a bad time, so it's definitely limiting your options.
400-500 miles would have barely got you to our Death Valley trip 🤣. I think having an absurd amount of range would seal the deal for me.
This video was also about how effective traction control has become! The Tacoma with no rear locker, killed it! Add a rear locker to that setup and its even more capable. Impressive stuff!
I want to see what other programs the Rivian could run. I believe they’re able to rotate like tanks, but how about a “slither mode”? It would slither up obstacles like a snake 🐍
@@JonDZ_Adventuring that is true. There weren’t many good charging options between trails. Would have been stuck charging on 110V in those tiny towns.
Even ICE vehicles don't have a 1500 miles range so that's just wishful thinking.
@@mrpmj00 But the reason that's OK for ICE vehicles is that the infrastructure is in place to be able to refuel anywhere. Without such an infrastructure you need more range out of the vehicle to support long-distance travel.
MotorTrend had no trouble charging the Rivian on their journey across the US on the Trans-America Trail. The infrastructure is there and it's getting better all the time.
I read the article. They used public L2 and L3 charges, as well as Rivian installed charge stations on the trail. Rivian purposely built those charges were infrastructure didn’t exist. So, I wouldn’t say “no problem”. The rivians took 43 days to complete the trail. On average, it takes a stock gasoline/diesel 4WD 28 days. You’re right, with better infrastructure and improved battery technology with 1000 mile range and 5 minute charging, I think EV off-roaders will do it even quicker than ICE off-roaders. I wonder if the 15 extra days were from charging the Rivians.
The locations of your videos are amazing. Such beautiful landscapes. Great for filming. 👍
Glad you had the disclaimer regarding the Atrac. Having owned both vehicles with the locker and the Atrac, I would definitely go with the Atrac.... or both
If I didn’t do that disclaimer, and showed how awesome a trac is, I don’t think anyone would believe me. People hear locker, and they think it’ll get up anything. A triple locked Landcruiser would be a different story though.
Sweet comparison. I wonder if the LC100 has an issue that isn’t obvious.
The LC100 I came across seems to behave just like the other ones. It did a lot better than my Honda, the problem is the terrain is very very soft. He actually tried using more momentum than the Rivian.
How much fuel do you carry with you to get the 1500 of miles of range?
With infrastructure put in place and a 3 minute refuel time to get 450 miles range, I’ve never had to resort to my 2 gallon fuel pack. Did you watch the video? Do you know why I’d need 1500 miles range to go “overlanding”? Do you know what “overlanding” is? There’s no reason for your question…. unless you didn’t watch the video.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I did watch the video fully (I have a Tacoma and a 100 Series) but I was thinking... he'd have to go deliberately off the beaten path to need 1500 miles of range in an ICE. So I was wondering if you carried a lot of jerry cans or what not.
Your point with the infrastructure on EV charging is well taken, but in the context of my above question, it's why asked for clarification on what you meant.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring and why you have to be so dissmissive? calm down mr. youtuber
awesome video Jon! talk about right place right time. cool to see the rivian in action. espeically as a share holder lol. But, to be fair I think the 100 series definitely would have made it had it carried the same moment the rivian came in with. from where the video started, it seemed like the 100 came in almost at a crawl. idk i wasnt there, but i do think the landcruiser would have made it up. Then again.... you already know where my biased stands lol!!
Thanks Cruiser Shooter! I cut out the approach footage because I was trying to keep the video time down. The Landcruiser made multiple attempts and used even more momentum than the Rivian and Tacoma. I hear that this video is circulating on a Landcruiser Facebook page, and what people might not understand is that this is very soft terrain. Traction control helps here. I made sure to explain that, because I knew no one would believe me otherwise. The Rivian actually lets off on the accelerator because hitting the rut, so it didn’t carry momentum throughout.
Wait… I just rewatched the land cruiser’s attempt. He lets off at the wrong moment, lol.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Also things like tire pressures can make a massive difference, so should not make too far conclusions from these. But the main point right about this is that indeed, electric vehicles in theory have all the possibilities to be good off roaders, power, very precise motor control, and they don't need air, so if well insulated, they could do deeper water crossings than ICE's. The only downsides of EV's for offroading are high weight, poor cold climate operation and somewhat limited operating range if you want to go to a really long distance travels, like accross a desert or in remote areas.
I appreciate you asking the fella whether you could film him for a UA-cam video.
I've been over rougher terrain in my 06 Focus
ATRAC is a game changer. My first gen sequoia will go some many places with 33in tires ATRAC and some skid plates. And it’s huge and perfect for sleeping in week long hunting trips in the mountains it Never fails me.
It's best not to stop in the middle of your climb brother. Just try to keep slow and steady momentum
It's interesting how a 200 series LC would cope with this. I think the main problems with LC100 here were the weight of the car, absence of A-trac and driver's experience... That said Rivian is 400kg heavier than LC100.
That driver wasn't good, I've driven the same Land Cruiser, stock over way worse terrain than that with no issue whatsoever
@@clesioescorcio7428 I agree and street tires do not help either. Seemed that air pressure was not lowered. Either way I'll take the LC100 because it will outlast that Rivian. A colleague of mine bought an LC100 new and currently has 595,000 miles zero issues and looks amazing for the year.
Land Cruiser 80 with the factory front, rear and center locks and lighter weight, solid front and rear axle, would beat them all. 😂
Problem is you won't carry momentum everywhere you go wheeling. And starting at over 3.5 tons, you will get stuck and sunk. Need to test on angle at full stop and restart without momentum.
Whoever was driving the LC had no idea how to drive off-road.
Great reminder of the power of momentum. All the stoppy-starty stuff gets you nowhere fast 😆
Great video! The Rivian might not be suited to Overlanding due to lack of range, but it is definitely a great Offroad monster. What would offroad tires do to it's range?
Sorry Jon, you probably won't ever see 1,000 miles of range in an EV. (Maybe a semi truck?) As you know, it's feasible to carry the weight of extra gasoline or diesel but it's not feasible to carry an extra 1,000 lb battery to double your range. Then you'll have to do the calculus of how much that weight from the extra battery is depleting your current range 🤣. It's much more cost effective and beneficial to society to implement better infrastructure. This is why you can live with your Honda not having 1,000 miles of range.
For overlanding, I believe hybrids are the answer. It will be decades before there is proper electric infrastructure. Not because technology does not allow it, but because politics will not allow it. We have a different president every 4 years how the hell do we expect to get anything done... Hybrids will fill the gap between the lengthy gasoline to electric infrastructure transition. Oh is it a coincidence that the vehicle that will fill this gas to electric gap is both gas and electric!? Haha. I would love a beefed up prius for overlanding. 4 electric motors and a battery. Plus a small 4 cylinder engine only weighs 250 lbs.
P.S.
Every time you hear "game changing" or "ground breaking" or "disruptive" in the automotive world its just a bunch of fancy journalism. Innovation moves slow in the automotive world.
Well said AJ!!! Your comment is everything I’ve been thinking about, it’s just that I tried to whip a video together quickly to please the UA-cam algorithm Gods and to be honest I didn’t give this video too much thought before making it,
There are some promising future battery tech. But you’re right! Hybrids are the answer. Well… actually….. gas generators are the answer! Ford has a pending patent on a portable gas generator that slips under the bed between the rear wheels. What a simple and effective solution to “hold people over” while infrastructure is improved.
To answer your question, I heard that the Rivians during the Rebelle rally with offroad tires only went around 100 miles during the mojave road. They had semi trucks with battery packs to recharge all the EVs that participated.
What did this trail do to my Honda? It killed my range too! With offroad modifications, I can get just over 400 miles range. I burned through it all, but had my Jerry can to fall back on. I probably used a 1/4 tank of gas on that sand dune though 😃.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring at least do research before putting out nonsense like 100 miles of range. It was diminished from the EPA of course, but it was just shy of 200 on average during that event. I do agree that a small compact generator like that may be a great stop gap solution while the infrastructure is being built though.
@@MorganWalser I looked it up but that I information isn’t public, at least not by an internet search. Now, since you said for me to do my research, I think you owe us all your sources. Link em!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring just reread the article, I was mistaken. They did over 190 miles a day on average, only charging at the end every day. They estimate that it would've lasted until around 227 miles before being fully drained.
Can you post the video of the Wilderness doing it?
The out back wilderness did not make it up the hard line. But I do have a video with the Outback wildness making it up the same line as the land cruiser. The video is called “21 vehicles down the Diablo drop off”.
Best Advertisement of Rivian against an old land cruiser
The Tacoma has Multi Terrain Select (MTS) and not A-TRAC. The difference is MTS allows you to adjust the aggressiveness of the traction system. We do this trail every October and enjoy playing on the diablo drop off. Keep up the great videos.
I am with you Jon on the issue of range, a coworker/buddy of mine and I started talking about electric vehicles and them being the future I pointed out that I would need to have range because of where I go there are no gas stations nearby and if I were to drain the batteries, how do I get back out without having to haul some form of power generation with me and how long it would take to get enough charge at that, so yes, 1000 mile range minimum for suren
I just watched Donald’s (Softroadingthewest) and just realized you’re the guy that made his emblem. Good work with that! Yeah, I received some messages on Instagram from people that actually tried to go on road trips, and they too said they’d like to see 1000 mile range minimum. Some are commenting that’s it’s not necessary, but they’re also probably not doing what we’re doing. They might not realize that traversing 25 rough miles will use a lot of energy (watts) to get through. Also, how many carry an extra 10 gallon Jerry cans on long adventures? Part of overlanding is being prepared for the worst, so … im just bewildered that anyone would be opposed to more range, or thinking that 300 miles is enough.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Thank you! And It's those darn on-roaders that only consider going on well groomed gravel roads as going off-road lol. It's only when you are out at places like central/eastern Oregon on a 2 track that used to be a wagon trail with no gas for 100 miles around that you start thinking of those extra 10 gallons will make or break you for getting to one of those stations. I for one have always been overly prepared ever since I got my second vehicle (70 Bug) and so yes range is key for everything, when you get out on those 2 tracks you are using 2-3X more energy (whether it be using a liquid fuel or electron fuel). Also there is the fact that you stated of waiting for charging, unless you are at a Tesla supercharger station (even though those take roughly 20 min to fully charge a vehicle still). For a trip to, lets say, Anaheim from Portland, you would be adding about 3-4 hours on a standard charger to the 16 hour drive just to recharge.
You will not be ready to pay the price for 1000 mile range, so it will most likely not happen. Or perhaps somewhere 2030 where batteries are super cheap, not much earlier.
They will stay weigh a lot. Better keep your big silly truck for the weekends and actually use something efficient and electric as your daily driver. That will be much easier and comfortable to drive and save you money.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring What I have been doing in terms of "Overlanding" as a European is going across lots of countries into other continents (for us mostly Asia), most of the time with diesel Toyota's. And some of the routes we have travelled, other people already did with an electric car. Mostly a very normal road car, so they didn't do the offroad parts we did, but they went far with cars like a Tesla Model S but also with much smaller range cars like the Nissan Leaf. Did it cost more time? Yes, definitely, but they got everywhere.
So how long would it last in 4x4 ?
Wow - that TRD Sport with no locker handled it fine... Sheesh, I thought I needed at least a Rear Locker...
I was impressed too! Especially seeing how much the LC100 struggled.
Atrac is awesome
the real interesting thing for me will be whats the true range if youre out running inclines and trails. 300mi range is assuming youre on a paved surface going flat but it suffers huge drop offs when youre climbing or towing. Would I get one of these trucks personally? Considering its $4 gal gas under since Biden, my current Silverado is costing me about $300mo in fuel each month. The savings on electricity vs gasoline would help offset the cost of the vehicle and if I wanted to go running trails all weekend I wouldnt be above bringing a gas powered generator to charge up if I needed to. I like the 7k weight and its ability to climb and get traction, Id buy one for its utility, I couldnt care less about the "save the planet" aspect.
Infrastructure aside...would you buy a 70k wrangler or 70k rivian?
Infrastructure is hard to ignore. If we were at a point where recharging was just as quick as filling up on gasoline, then I’d take the Rivian. A wrangler is too uncomfortable, and there’s so much storage in the Rivian. Frunk, Brunk, Bed, pass through. Tank mode. The Rivian has a lot going for it.
Just as a note . The 300 mile range on the lighting is with a 1000lbs load.
Great job comparing two vehicles from two different era! At least, try the comparison using a current gen Land Cruiser 300. 😁
He kept stopping and turning into the hillside to bury
the tires. It’s bullshit.
You’re forgetting that EVs can carry solar panels and charge themselves in the middle of nowhere. Of course it takes a long time, but for overlanding it could work. Infrastructure can also be setup in the middle of nowhere with solar without need to haul gas there, making it more viable for overlanding.
Solar panels would be a great idea to carry around. I don't know if the technology is there to make it super practical though. Would you have to stop for a day and let it charge? Or would it only take a few hours? I don't know.
@@chrisnah8423 Even with a huge unfurling array of cells, it would take forever to charge an EV on current solar tech.
"Long time", it takes about a month for such a heavy vehicle with a couple of panels. 😂
@@chrisnah8423 Sun shines at about 1 kW per square meter. Panels can recover about 20% of that, so 200 Watts / m^2. If you have 100 kWh battery pack, it will take 100 000 / 200 = 500 hours to charge it with 1 m^2 solar panel. If you have 2 square meters of panels, "only" 250 hours . . . 😂 With 20 m^2 of panels (that is a lot), you can do it in 25 hours, so in 3-5 days if you are on desert in perfect weather.
@@wopmf4345FxFDxdGaa20 I was hoping someone would do the math. 👍
Cybertruck next year?
I agree that the range on the Rivian is not a problem (my FJ gets maybe 200 to 230 miles on a tank). They’ve already overlanded from South America to California with the 300 range battery pack (on option is the 400 mile range pack). They’ve done the Trans America trail. They’ve also done the Rebelle rally.
The problem is the infrastructure (not enough reliable non tesla chargers). You keep bringing up Death Valley. Once the electrify America chargers in Baker start working (they seem to have been under construction for the past 1-2 years) that will give your 300 to 400 miles of range to get in and around death valley. Looking on the maps there are also other places in Death Valley to top up and charge.
Would be interesting to have stationary panels with batteries and chargers in the middle of some of these trails. They would be self sufficient since they just need to collect sun, convert to onsite batteries, then those power the chargers. Would work well considering Rivian is just making 2 Riv’s a day but not viable when a whole group of Rivians come to charge.
So far I’ll keep my tesla as a daily driver and keep using my FJ for off-road until I see in the real world how viable the Rivian is.
Death Valley was 180 offroad miles and 613 onroad miles done over 3 days and 3 nights on a very tight schedule, so I feel the range is definitely a problem. It’s too hard to ignore. We had two vehicles with double flat tires. I was going to escort them to the closest major town which would have been a 250 mile detour. Luckily, someone volunteered to look after them. Unexpected things will happen, and all I want is more range to account for this. More range would solve a lot of problems. But I’ll agree, with less range, you can go on overlanding trips. You just need lots of time. Sounds perfect for someone that’s retired, and really patient.
There are chargers in Beatty, Amargosa Valley, Furnace Creek and Pahrump.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I don’t know where your trail starts and stops for Death Valley because I don’t have enough friends with vehicles capable of overlanding that I can go with… but from where I live in OC to Baker it’s about 146 miles away. With a 300 mile range Rivian that means I’d have about 50% of my charge by the time I get to Baker. I can plug into one of the evgo fast chargers in Baker and get 240 to 270 miles of range in about 30 minutes. Enough time to get out, stretch legs, and use the bathroom. If I decided to stop and get food then I’d have the full 300 miles of range by the time I’m done eating. That leaves another 240 to 300 miles of range to cover the 180ish miles off-road. You’d still have enough electricity to control your HVAC if camping in the truck to stay cool or warm. You’d have even more range if you had the 400 mile range battery.
Now if you wanted enough batteries to get 1000 miles of range… could you imagine how much weight you’d be hauling around and off-roading with? Imagine getting it stuck in the sand and attempting to have a Taco recover a truck with 1000 miles worth of batteries?
There is this thing call mobile charger packs just like the red tanks of gas..
Agree with your review there is no question the Rivian's capability but I'm never giving up my built 200 Series Land Cruiser cause like you its a range issue and freedom to explore with my other Land Cruiser brothers roaming the country without worrying about the support of the electric infrastructure to support recharging them. For you average weekend camper explorer maybe the Rivian will fit their needs I definitely feel like its the best electric option on the market.
A lot has to do with tire size and how aggressive they are, I think the Land Crusser 100 with better tires could have also climb the first hill
The driver 100% had to do with the test there were points where he could have gone up but he stopped
Sorry but does any ICE car have a 1000 mile range. I don't see any gas stations from where you are standing either. I understand your point but I feel like you're asking for just a little bit much. I think 400 mile range is going to be the sweet spot in the coming years. I'm waiting for a couple improvements before I pick up my electric vehicle
That's what I'm waiting for, enough improvements. I'd be more than happy to switch. I'm looking forward to see what happens in the next 5-7 years. Oh, and to answer your question: Yes, there are several ICE vehicles with 1000+ mile range. The Diesel Ford Tremor F-250 has around a 1300 mile range with it's 48 gallon gas tank.
I noticed, he put weight in the back of the Rivian, and the tires of that Tacoma at the end was way more aggressive than the Rivian.
It doesn’t matter the rivian is heavier and has 800hp over double the Tacoma
WOW, great content as always. I wonder how long it would take to fast charge at 1500 mi battery. Then again you’d only be charging from maybe 30% to full which is still a lot. Must be weird going up that hill in total silence 😂
It appears that most batteries will charge to around 80% pretty rapidly. The last 20% taking a lenghty amount of time. In a 1500 mile range battery that would still be 1200. I was watching a TFL video where they charged a Tesla with a 240V gas generator. I figure a 12000 watt generator could probably charge up in about 30 hours.... jeebus :(. I wonder how much gas that would take.
I think I'm liking the idea of a 240 Kilowatt battery adventure trailer more :P haha!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring 🤣 plus a solar awning that can be deployed while driving.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring If you want to charge 1500 miles (with a big 4x4) in less than half an hour you need the power connection of a small town. It is ridicilous and will not happen, because nobody will want to pay for such a connection. Fast charging is typically more expensive than charging at home because of the infrastructure, and it will be very expensive with these high demands.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring too bad you can’t just remove the last 20% of your battery to save on weight! :p
@@roland9367 battery swap stations?
Jon, I think you have the wrong idea.
SOME electric vehicles have differentials. Tesla cars with dual-motor AWD feature open differentials at the front and rear drive units. Electric vehicles featuring a similar drive unit layout that combines the differential with the electric motor will have differentials. Like most vehicles that have open differentials, such vehicles rely primarily upon brake-based traction control to transfer power side-to-side to the drive wheels with grip.
If you don't believe me, you can look up how Unplugged Performance recently released a limited-slip differential available for specific Tesla vehicles.
Obviously, this Rivian pickup does not have the same problem as the drive unit design used in Tesla cars, assuming it has independent electric motors per drive wheel as you mentioned.
You could technically put a 2-3 ton trailer on the back to get an extra 1000 or more miles. Put some solar panels aswell and they'll charge while you're moving.
Now show me a 100 series being driven at a slow constant speed. Even without A-TRAC it should get up there. I'm just waiting for the R1S to be available here in Australia. Ideally with 5-600 miles of range. It's pretty rare for me anyway to not want to stop driving for a bit after 500 miles of constant driving, and it's seriously rare to not see electricity for that far. Even on the Canning Stock Route, you'd find a way to charge if you're happy to wait around for a bit, and if you're doing the Canning Stock Route and aren't prepared to take it easy once or twice you are not going to have a great time.
Nuclear powered unlimited range!
Go big or go home!
I'd be willing to bet the Rivian will be in the shop for work before the 100.
would love to get better range out of my 4Runner, but it's got a V8 and she's a little thirsty. Seems something odd may have even going on with that 100. The Taco walked right up it. It's goin to be exciting to see what the future brings for powertrains. Personally, I'd love to see a plug-in hybrid. Something I can drive to work in full EV mode and charge at home throughout the week. Then when it comes trip time run it in hybrid mode and get 25-30 mpgs, but still have plenty of power and low end torque when needed. A 4Runner plug in hybrid with lockers could easily have 400 hp, 50 miles EV only range, and do 25-30 mpg highway.
The Jeep Wrangler 4xE has 21 miles EV range and then switches to a 2.0 turbo that gets 20 mpg highway. That 2.0 turbo power plant really concerns me, because on the highway with high winds it’s affected by drag. The turbo is constantly spooling. On a trip to Colorado, we had a Gladiator 3.6 V6 , my 3.5 V6 Honda and a Jeep Wrangler 2.0 turbo. At 80 mph in high winds, the gladiator and I were getting 18.5 mpg, the Wrangler 2.0 turbo was getting 12 mpg!!!! I’m very curious what the true highway MPG is on the 4xE, because an EPA 20 mpg highway is not impressive. I think Diesel hybrids make a whole lot of sense! The electric motors can counter the lag of the diesel motors until they can spool up.
YES YES YES ....I`m looking for weeks for a video like this :D :D :D :D
Why does Rivan, not make a generator that mounts in the back of the truck bed but doesn't take up all the room then It can be fired up and continually charge the truck while you overland long distances. That way you have a kind of a hybrid type system that is always charging even when you are waiting for the vehicles in front of you to clear an obstacle.
Because, it’s “all or nothing!” Wait… that’s the Mercedes slogan! 🤣 how about just buying a new plugin hybrid truck, suv or Jeep? 😃
@@JonDZ_Adventuring because then you have the hybrid when you need it and you don't carry around the weight the rest of the time. In essence. You drive around an electric vehicle. But for those time when you need to go on a road trip or long distance. You turn your vehicle into a hybrid. Modular.
All electric vehicles have differentials, you still need to split torque to either wheel at different speeds. The rivian does not have differentials just a single speed transmission for each wheel.
How many gas can you carry to get to 1500 miles in your ICE car???
My personal ice car, which is a Honda Passport with aggressive all-terrain tires, a cargo carrier, a 4-1/4” net lift, and 450 lbs. of full time gear I lug around still has up to a 450 mile range from a 19.5 gallon gas tank. To archive 1500 miles I would have to carry 9 x 5 gal Jerry cans. 283 lbs from gasoline and 90 lbs from the metal Jerry cans.
I’d roof mount 4 cans up top and 5 cans on a rear hitch mounted cargo basket.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring thats really good mpg. my 4runner only has 12mpg and 280 miles range.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring To my 4runner. 1500 miles is impossible. I would have to carry almost double the gasline of yours
yours must be really modified! My friends 5th Gen 4runner outfitted for overlanding could probably pull off 18-19 mpg if cruising on the highway at 65 mph. That’s 432 to 456 range.
I did a real world MPG comparison between lots of different vehicles about 100 miles, half highway and half offroad:
ua-cam.com/video/oahCSV3LSNs/v-deo.html
In this test, my Passport got 16.1 mpg because half of it was offroad. My friends modified 5th Gen 4runner got 14.7, but there’s a stock 4runner TRD Pro that got 16.1 as well. Off-road terrain kills range. My 450 mile highway range shrinks to 150 miles offroad.
I’m very excited to see what the future holds for EV overlanders and I’m confident Rivian is leading the way in making this happen! I can see E bikes becoming legit overlanding vehicles as well.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring imagine now if it was a diesel.
In order for an infrastructure to start....purchases of vehicles need to be there....so people should start buying electric.....as for having extended miles...try bringing a power station or generator. Just some food for thought.
When you have open front diff vehicle, you have to drive it like that. They unnecessarily made the Land Cruiser perform even worse than it in reality does by driving it like that. 😂 The Rivian did excellent in this kind of obstacle. But same way you could do a comparison on another kind of obstacle to find out how it does there. Would love to see them do a steeper hill climb with deep holes, where you need momentum and the 4WD system must react fast in order to maintain the momentum. Reactive systems tend to have difficulties in this kind of obstacle. Another good test would be very soft terrains so we could see how badly it sinks.
Great content once again, really enjoying seeing the comparison between different vehicles. It seems like brake based traction control systems do a better job on extremely slippery surfaces like this one than pure lockers. The "ABS-like" action of braking and un-braking produce more traction than purely locking up the wheels that a mechanical locker would.
I was pretty amazed to see the amount of articulation on the Rivian with its fully independent air suspension. Do you know if the Rivian had its air suspension set to the max height? Based on what I have seen on land rover videos, raising air suspension to max height severely limits articulation. The Rivian didn't even lift a wheel!
NK, you make really good observations! I'm not sure what settings the Rivian was using, but I really see the potential. I've been commenting about "slither mode", like a snake! I'm sure there could be some really incredible programs a 4 motor system can perform.
So, owning a vehicle with traction control and having added a locker to it later, I can say this is not the case. At least with my generation traction control. In this video, IMHO, you are seeing the weakness of the open front diff of the 100, versus a very sophicsticated traction control that is likely so much more than brake assist, but rather motor on/off...thus never having to brake a wheel and possible stop momentum. But a double locked vehicle would definately be just fine and a vehicle with some sort of traction control on the front and a rear locker would have probably been okay...it's just in the situation where the rear tires are both doing all they can and need some help from the front...that open diff, just can't provide that help... All that said, once battery capacities, charging technologies and infrastructure get in place I will happily wheel an EV with a motor per wheel...we're still at least a vehicle generation away though...again IMHO...
The Rivian air suspension works differently than most others on the market (McLaren has used the same type of system), and it doesn’t suffer nearly as much of a penalty as the Range Rover, Tesla, or other air suspensions. Some cool info about how it works can be found if you search.
Well I guess it only shows that having a vehicle with (good) traction control on both axles is better than having just rear locker. You can clearly see that one of the front wheels of the TLC is spinning and the other not moving. Would really like to see a vehicle with 3 difflocks (G-Wagen, Rubicon, 70-series LC...) as a comparsion. Anyway the traction control systems are only used only on SUVs or recreational vehicles. Professional/military/emergency trucks (even the newest one which are just planned for production like the W464 or Ineos) still use mechanical difflocks.
Not really. Remember that the LC did not have a front locker. With no type of LSD or brake locking system on the front, as soon as one front wheel loses traction the front of the LC is useless. Whereas with four motors the Rivian could apply power to a front wheel that still has traction. This was essentially comparing a 4wd with rear locker and nothing up front to a 4wd with front and rear lockers- kind of a foregone conclusion. And on a hill climb in particular you want to be pulling as well as pushing. A couple of times you saw the effect of only pushing, it lifts the front which is already more susceptible to lifting due to the steepness of the incline, and also when only one rear wheel gets traction this will turn the vehicle off its line. Rivian vs front and rear locker vehicle like a Gladiator would probably be about the same. If locked before when approaching a feature the vehicle with front and rear lockers will probably look smoother actually because a system like Rivian’s requires slip for it to send power to the other wheel. Would also be interested to see a more articulated track. I really want to see what kind of droop the Rivian has when air sus is raised. Traditionally with air sus when you raise it it decreases it’s articulation. Wonder if Rivian has figured out a way around this or if it suffers from same problem.
Yo anyone down to see the trail pack model x alongside the track pack model s
Personal I'm already gonna get one with the infrastructure bill being passed and rivian making there adventure network and the possibility tesla will open up their chargers here in the US like they did in the Netherlands but, I can't wait to see what these companies do with carbon batteries and sold state batteries
Love the attitude Techblaze! There’s a lot to look forward to!
Scroll through the comments and you’ll find a lot of people that think Lithium batteries is the only option and technology can’t advance any further. I know they’ll be proved wrong in the coming years.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring yep there is still a ton of other battery technologies in development can't wait to see where it goes especially where it goes with wearables, laptops, and phones
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Look at the Blade battery by BYD....
At about 02:00 into the vid, that first vehicle had street-pressure tires. The vehicle after that with all the stuff on top, he was aired down a bit. That's what made the difference.
Incorrect. He’s running Falken Wildpeak AT3W.
@@SDwriter.and.surfer mis read, I glanced at it and saw street tires. But all the tires you see here are aired down to 15-20 PSI.
@@SDwriter.and.surfer keep in mind, you’re comparing a shot from 100 feet vs. a shot from 5 feet. You’ll see more detail up close obviously. Look up my video “fins n thing south”, proof we all aired down.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I'll look that up, but also take you at your word. Thanks for clarifying. Good point on the distance factor. From a distance the white one's tires didn't seem to moosh hardly against the rocks and looked a little bouncier.
I think the Rivian was really impressive, but the Tacoma did a great demonstration that you don't necessarily need a locker if you have good traction control system. I think they're definitely will be a place for EV's in the future, but I agree that not quite yet. I think for a daily driver a 500mile range would be fantastic, that would make me happy and would make me consider one. And I actually live in an apartment where I don't have access to a charger, however if the infrastructure is good enough that I could charge at work, a 500-mile charge would go a full week. I think a 500-mile charge would be acceptable for overlanding, because most popular vehicles realistically barely get over 400. I know my 4Runner if I dip down low in the tank will do 400, but not much more. I do think we have a ways to go with infrastructure before this can be viable, hopefully the new bill in Congress addresses this, but I think the main obstacle is going to be charging time. If it takes 6 hours to charge, that's definitely a damper on everyone's adventure. It'd be nice to be able to plug it in, grab lunch, and come back to a full battery.
500 miles is enough . Do you know how much it will take to charge 1500 miles.
500 miles is enough for what? For daily life? Sure. But it’s not enough for what I talk about in this video. To charge 80% of a 1500 mile range battery with a level 3 charger it would take 80 minutes. That’s 1200 miles. You realize that technology will improve right? Honest question 🤣. I wonder if people had these same debates about cell phone battery capacity. “Do you know how much longer it will take to charge my phone with that bigger battery? Our phones only need to last 5 hours”.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring My Current phone charger is now 65 Watts . Charges 5000mah battery in 36 minutes (0-100). So I know the thrill and No this is not my First phone because tech is 'not there yet.' I think that's too harsh of you set a 1500 miles battery range and not get in on EVs. There are physical limits . 2021 Tesla Model X Performance has 0.39 KWh/mi Mileage , with 100 KWh pack gives 300 miles range . Which by extension of your needs requires 500KWH Battery ! .Fastest available supercharger v3 ( not widely available) does 250 KW (2 Hours to full charge with 100% efficiency) , that tesla can take in only 125KW (4 hours). add The Weight of the Battery .
Tesla Cybertruck 500 Mile is supposed to come with 250 KWH pack , for that to get 1500 miles it would require 750KWH.
@@Y2Kvids My Original iPhone charged at 5 watts and had a 1400 mAh battery., and your current Phone charges at 65 watts and has a 5000 mAh battery. There’s nothing more for me to say.
They make a good overlamb option if your expectation isn't a ridiculous 1500 miles
That built taco at the end did good. My stock taco probably couldn’t go there :/
I’m so confused why people think you’re claiming an ICE vehicle can-or should-get 1500mi on a single tank. There are two main reasons in my mind that an ICE vehicle doesn’t need 1500 (or even 1000) miles of range:
1) the infrastructure is in place to refuel almost anywhere
2) pound-for-pound, gasoline is so much more energy-dense than a battery that it’s actually feasible to carry extra fuel to get you double, triple, or n-tuple range-whatever you’re willing or able to carry.
Lol... you actually need at least 1000 miles of range or even 1500 miles, toyota sells the land cruiser prado and 200 in Australia with massive fuel tanks giving over 1000 miles of range, there are even custom longer range aftermarket tanks. The outback is gigantic and people travel everytime and everywhere.
@@TubeMeisterJC you must be joking mate, im talking about overlanding and its definitely not the miserable 600km that people wants.
just get a diesel generator trailer and you good to got for 1500 moles !!
Also its much much easier to put charging stations in far off places that already have electricity than constantly supplying a petrol station.
@@faisal181 I don’t think anyone disagrees that EVs are good. I think many (myself included) are just saying they’re not there yet for long-range off-grid travel.
The Rivian is spectacular, but I wonder if it's really fair to compare a stock truck that isn't really publicly available to a stock truck that's been available for 20 years.
Totally agree re your point on electric trucks. Until they triple their range, they're not going to compete with diesel. Hydrogen may have a chance, if in theory you're able to carry an extra canister or three and refuel out bush.
The LC driver alternated between way too much throttle and none at all, picked bad lines, and I don't think he ever used the rear locker. The Rivian did great, but I don't think it's a fair comparison when the LC didn't even get traction control that year.
It would be interesting to see it compared to Land Rovers Traction control, specifically the Range Rover
I need to adventure out with more land rovers. I know this guy with a brand new Discovery, but he brought his wife’s Volvo XC90 on our last trip. We had a Disco sport, but it’s similar to the Evoque. I don’t believe it has the same traction control system as a Disco.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring the range rovers have some of the best traction control out there. I love electric vehicles but their kerb weight and range are things that need to be worked on
Range rover has the best traction control on earth, there is litteraly no competition, I've seen range rover rock crawling with stock Street tires, trust me.
@@carholic-sz3qv Youre correct, however, electric motors have superior torque delivery and modulation. It all comes down to physics. Some of the downsides of the Rivian is its length, gear ratio and weight. Think about it, a range rover has engine that drives four wheels through several mechanical components with electronics and brakes which limit traction loss versus a vehicle with a high torque motor at a wide range of RPMs at EACH individual wheel. That inherently superior and easier to control when coupled with electronic controls.
@@HotHeadCJ lol..... low end torque is nothing when you don't have a good traction control, at Carwow on youtube a 85hp 2 cylinder fiat panda humiliated the tesla modelx for example. Land rovers with barely 100hp are fantastic offroad....
right on point with infrastructure: cali can barely keep the power grid up esp in the summer
TFL did a video where they used a Honda 7000 watt gas generator on a Tesla, because California power grid black outs. To charge from near empty to a full battery would take 10 hours and 3.2 gallons of gas.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring 👍 very much more of a luxury vehicle, than a tool for the working man
Habibi come to Dubai, we will show you how to drive the lc100
damn that Rivian was very impressive and surprisingly in its element with Electric motors having all the lowspeed torque.
The quad motors are something really cool and honestly Honda as done something similar with the Acura "sport Hybrids" having two motors that can spin, drag, or true torque vector each rear in the the rear of the MDX and RLX sport hybrid or Front Wheels in the the NSX...Honda please start actually commiting to ideas!
I believe Honda is working with GM to make their EV truck. I heard rumors 🤞. I really like the idea of the 4 motors. Rivian did a great job.
Rivian is gorgeous 🤙🏻
the land cruiser has a quite funky rear end as well and outdated
It was making so much noise struggling trying to get uphill 🤣😩
I've been looking into Rivian. It's certainly appealing even with range limitations.
This video shows how capable it can be!
It's a lot easier to make electricity versus gasoline.
Even in a pretty rural area several gas stations have EV charging available.
But sadly everything is off the table until dealer lots start filling up again and who knows when that will be.
Rivian did have a crazy IPO for number of vehicles produced.
The future is looking bright! How about a hybrid with 4 electric motors???? Or a giant sprinter van with 1500 miles range and 3 kilowatts of solar panels. I’ve dreamt of this stuff! Seeing how capable the Rivians quad motor system is in person instantly made me a believer in EV tech.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring We considered a Wrangler 4XE instead of the Bronco because I think it's a great option for many reasons.
Drive around town on electric. Get on the highway and regular gas if you need it.
Or get to the trail and do the trail in electric. Not have to put up with stinky loud exhaust.
Sadly they aren't offered in 2 door. Something she's set on.
Since it's a third car anyway it makes sense to get something more... pure?
I know we have the FJ now but it's just so she has something until the Bronco shows up.
Bronco has been in purgatory for the better part of a year. The way we have it specced it's cheaper than an Outback Wilderness anyway.
Even ICE vehicles don't have a 1500 miles range so that's just wishful thinking.
What people also need to think about is that a 180kwh battery pack takes a really really long time to charge. Especially if you don’t have access to anything more than 240V.
That’s why the only way I’d consider one right now is if they had absurd 1500 mile range.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring yeah I agree, I also think there will be a limited consumer market for these as battery electric isn’t the best solution for larger vehicles. Something like my crosstrek yes, but a 4Runner or larger probably should be hybrid or hydrogen.
People who don't own electrics seem to not understand how much of a non-issue charging really is if you own your own home.
It charges overnight easily? Using just the mobile charger that comes with it you can charge about 17 miles an hour. If you get a hardwired Rivian charger you can charge at 25 mph or so on 240v.
Fast charger availability is getting pretty ubiquitous, although can still stand some improvement. Rivian's "adventure network" will hopefully plug a lot of the gaps in/near remote locations.
Unless you do a lot of towing or driving in the seriously middle of nowhere then you'll be fine. You could easily handle a 200 mile/day commute so long as you're home for eight hours to sleep.
That Rivian is a beast!
It sure is!
These are super cool!
Landcruisers are all about durability. Not comparable yet. Do an overland from Cape Town to Cairo and see which one gets there first and at what cost. I'm sure the Rivian will be looking for a re-charge a few hours out of Cape Town. Cost is probably double for the Rivian too.
Some FYIs to share:
- New Bronco has worse ICE range than EVs do.
- Rivian and Jeep are both building charging stations in popular off-road areas.
- Jeep did Rubicon Trail with limited plug-in range. Rivian and other EVs could do that, too, with no problem.
- Long-term off-grid favors EV, since it effectively is multi-fuel (solar, house, commercial, generator...)
- Nissan built their Re-Leaf concept because of the proven supply of EV over ICE
- Generators for EVs are called "Range Extender", and one was used in the Dakar Rally a few years back.
- If you're going into an area that doesn't have a charging station listed online, use your fricken phone and talk to other humans 😆. Call gas stations, ranger stations, and so on, until you get someone that will let you plug in your own extension cord.
More range means more battery heavier vehicle hence less range. Have to draw a line somewhere for now and focus on infrastructure where you get in and out in minutes. Tesla and some others are doing the same
Offroad tires, changed to aero dynamics also lead to less range. There’s a UA-cam channel that built an overland Tesla and the range was reduced by about half.
Trust me Jon. Trust me... When most EV's start touching the 500mile range, you'll start looking at them. You aren't biting now because you already have a bomb ass capable SUV. Plus you have alot invested in it. 1500miles will never happen in our lifetime. That's 20+yrs from now capability. 500miles is very good as a normal. 30-40mins to charge is a good deal.
I am sure starting with the many 'more popular' off-road regions will start having "top off here" charging stations allowing you guys un-bothered off-road fun literally going over obstacles like it's nothing. It might even be too easy vs the fossil fuel alternative. Solar panel roof and hoods/attachments will be a thing giving you guys extra juice while climbing over the once "nearly impossible" to climb obstacles. I give you 8yrs to start wanting one of the EV (or even hybrid) offerings.
I’m pretty optimistic we can see super far ranges. 500 mile range is right around the corner with the cyber truck and 1000 mile range can’t be much further than that. I’ve been commenting with the idea of a adventure trailer with a 240 kw power pack 😃. Totally possible right?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring ooooooooo myyyy yessss a powered trailer would be dope! Especially while out there in the boonies. The cyber truck too yeeeeears to make. The technology is very expensive and they need to give us something to look forward to while we wait for whatever they already have available. I feel 1500miles won't happen in our lifetime is for a few reasons...
- infrastructure like you said (the having to build more charging stations to justify even buying such vehicles without scaring potential customers away from buying EV's because worries about having enough charging stations
- resources (I don't think we are able to even mine enough raw materials to make enough batteries to mass produce vehicles on such a scale.
So I think we will be nickel and diming hybrids and full on EV's until all of that stuff "and more" is figured out.
That's why I think the 1500mile range is too far down the road. Plus it gives manufacturers a 25-35-45yr plan to give them time to perfect or e chance the technology.
Even ICE vehicles don't have a 1500 miles range so that's just wishful thinking.
@@mrpmj00 There's a few long range diesel cars that can squeeze that out. Aptera will go 1000 miles on a single charge. And the rooftop solar would get you out of at least part of a trail of it had to. It has a plug to add extra solar if required like the mars rover in "The Martian".
The question is - will EVs have have better mileage off-road than highways? As far as I know EVs have lower mileage at high speed in highways. And actually efficient in cities driving under 30mph. How does it fair off-road where the speed is relatively low yet requires more occasional torque?
I heard that the EVs that ran through the Mojave road during this years Rebelle Rally with 350 mile range, only went about 100 miles before it was near empty. This is what I heard and can’t confirm through a Google search. At the end of the trail, they all recharged via a semi truck with a massive recharging station.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring well that's one more worrying factor for EVs.
@@debendragurung3033 only a small percentage of the population would set off on a 130 mile offroad trail though. It’s only worrying for the small percentage of adventure travelers like myself 😃.
If worse comes to worse. Someone with an EV can slowly recover range through solar panels. It will take a lot of them though, and it will depend on clear skies. I have a 100 watt solar panel I use to recharge my 1.4 kWh power station. The max It takes in is 80 watts per hour. It will take 17.5 hours of max sunlight to recharge. Let’s say I carried 4 portable solar panels, then it would take 4.3 hours. This would be to recharge my little 1.4kWh power station, which would be 1% of the current Rivian range, which would be about 1.5 onroad mile range, but about 1/4 offroad mile range. These are under ideal conditions.
Someone like me just has to wait until EV technology will improve, WHICH will happen. One day, it will be viable for me.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Mountainous countries like Nepal, and perhaps Bolivia - where off-road is more like a necessity than adventure, the range it provides will still be a factor. 100 miles could still work out fine enough but anything below that may not be acceptable. And for how expensive the Rivian is for carrying a large battery pack, something economical would definitely have a smaller battery pack which may not work out. Vehicle such as Land cruiser - of course the cheaper 4 cylinder version has played important role in the life of hilly Nepal and especially Land cruiser for it's reliability and dependability. So economy at scale - we need something more reasonable too.
@@debendragurung3033 ah! that's a good point!
I cannot take this channel seriously with “I need 1500 mile range”.
Thanks for sharing the video! Awesome to see. I'm excited to see how things go as technology and infrastructure develop over the next few years.
I want a plug-in hybrid Tundra. That's the end all be all. With a heavy duty e-cvt using a gigantic planetary gear set.... Thing would literally run for eternity :D
It would be much more feasible to develop equivalent infrastructure than to have 1500mile range. That kind of range would require entirely different energy storage technology.
They’re already working on next gen energy storing tech. Stay tuned!
You`d be looking at liquid metall batteries for 1500 mile range or more... they are molten mental at 500c+ temps...
Fuel cell or synthetic fuels would probably make more sense for that application.