Please "Like" and also " Share" to keep the conversation going. More insights from my perspective with 30 years of experience in the cycling Industry in the playlist: ua-cam.com/play/PLdfUXv0-z1u42bZpCLWmT2VtNW-7AIf2A.html
I think the industry would benefit from an association that developed a standard spec for a 9 or 10 speed groupset. If the association spec d pull ratio, bottom bracket width, teeth spacing etc., Consumers would not be so dependent on a few manufactures. Consumers would also know replacement parts could be found 10 or 20 yrs after they purchased their bike. Manufactures could focus one or two parts so new ones would appear. Independent frame manufactures wouldnt be dependent on supply chains controlled by just a few people. Disc brakes and electronic shifting wouldnt be forced on consumers. They would have a choice. The pros could still ride what they wanted. This would cut prices, increase competition and improve quality.
It’s called Patent licensing. You pay a license to the patents owner to use the design. Patents only last 20 years. After that anyone can freely copy the design. The Patents system today is broken. Instead of innovation. Patents are now weaponized to stifle competition. You can’t use a patented design if the patent owner refuses to license it.
It isnt patent licensing. Part of the problem is patents protect the holder for a limited no of years. In the US it is 18 years. That is one of the reasons why this industry comes up w new BS every year. Specs are what you see in other industries. This is standard practice in the construction industry. In construction every piece of material has to meet speifications so you know it is trustworthy. I am sure you see it in other industries. In construction there is no way to build anything trust worthy w/o them.
As a long-tern cyclist both 32 years daily working commuter and weekend road cyclist and mountain biker, I've seen a lot of changes over the years, especially the pricing. What I have noticed over the past 2 years or so, there are so many Asian branded bikes/e-bikes that have came on the market, using really good components brands and specs, with some e-bikes that are around 50% to 60% cheaper to purchase for these great quality e-bikes. However, I have also noticed for almost a year many of the online bike/ebike retailers and direct to customer manufacturers selling to the UK market seem to be having forever sales, which tells me a lot about the market. Looking at the raw goods(components) , the manufacturing costs, staff to build the bikes/e-bikes, marketing/advertising, frame developments and logistics, I have asked like many of my friends in the biking community on the somewhat spirling costs to purchase a bike/ebike. One of my friends made a valid point, without finance companies offering 0% APR finance over say a 4 year period, many of these bikes/e-bikes wouldn't be in our grasp, I have to question why it's acceptable for any manufacturers to sell especially e-bikes up to £10,000 for a fully speced mountain e-bike. Also have you noticed the market is now saturated with hundreds of different brands, to a point I cannot keep up, as there seems to be so many models coming out on a daily basis. Most that I have spoken to have said they'd pay at most for an e-bike is around £3000 on average, taking into account the cost of living crisis affecting many countries at the moment which Isn't helping many folks. I remember last Christmas Vitus brought out their new E-Mythique range out, within several weeks the 3 models had over £1000 taken off the price due to lack of sales, then to know the company went under. The only way I see things improving is to either bring out e-bikes that are affordable to many, knowing you can easily get a good speced e-bike for around £1500 from the Asian manufacturers. I know I could be here all day talking about why the market has changed, but we all known since that pandemic with over-buying stock etc etc, all I can see in front of me is many manufacturers going out of business and hopefully prices come down to a more affordable level.
Given their “competition by litigation” practices, it would benefit the industry as a whole. Specialized is an anchor that holds back the success of other ethical manufacturers.
Interesting discussion. I am not so much concerned with Specialized at Walmart, more of the direct to consumer. So…my Turbo Levo is great! But, as expensive as it is I have spent almost $3K in upgrades since buying it. So, if the frame goes down I am getting a frame set and swapping the group set, handlebars, pedals, cranks, etc. I need a Specialized shop to do that level of service. If I bought that bike online only, who will do the factory warranted software update? Service on restricted parts like suspension? It’s one thing to sell a straight up manual bike but even those need some love. Greed and shareholder revolts ruin businesses. All markets are cyclical, impulsive “fixes” will do more harm than good. To that end I am getting better at bike maintenance. Except the electronics, I don’t think I “need” Specialized any more. That should scare them more than be economic downturn.
... Except Merida no longer has any stake in Specialized and that was bought back years ago. They are still developing and pushing designs. But it's fun to imagine, I guess.
Dude...the Wasatch Front has amazing mountain biking and Utah's NICA league has 8 regions with over 3,000 kids per region. The youth market alone is massive. I'd put Wasatch Front on par with the Franger market... if not bigger.
Specialized dumped their overstock on big e-tailers that sold at prices that smaller shops couldn't touch. I wonder if some of this is backlash from those shops related to this?
Steuwart and Tom Walton, of Walmart family, are avid mountain bikers and have made huge investments in trails in Bentonville, the mothership of everything Walmart. I would not be surprised if they buy them.
@@IKnowAGuyBicycles I mention this because here in the UK we have a big chain auto/bicycle store in the UK, biggest retailer of bikes. Halfords, their brands are Carrera , Voodoo and Boardman ( fastest bloke on a bike in the 90s and still a fantastic cycling advocate). Those brands are made by Merida.
If Specialised, Trek, Giant Merida etc are all in such bad shape financially, how do the continue to support multi million dollar word tour teams in virtually all disciplines?
It could work if Walmart becomes a major player, loot at the Van Rysel bike, that is owned by a major store out of France. I think it could work and perhaps prices would come down.
Meanwhile, Giant, in their infinite wisdeom (stupidity), decided to raise prices of their bicycles. On what Earth does a bike company decide to raise prices and further exacerbate the chaos in the biking industry, namely pissing the customers off even more? Additionally, Cannondale raised the price of their top tier SuperSix Evo Lab71 $1,000 more from $15,000 to $16,000. Specialized now also sells a "limited" S-Works Tarmac SL8 for $15,000, a $500 price increase. I guess the bike companies either didn't get the memo or they're even more greedy. Or desperate? i've resorted to looking at newer used bikes that are less than 1/2 of what they were when new. As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with buying new in the biking industry.
When bikes change so fast lately, nobody wants to spend a ton of money on a bike that's going to be out of date in 2 years. Safer to buy "just enough" so you can take advantage of the improved features every few years without wasting a ton of money. Wider clearance, Threaded BBs, stuff like that.
OP completely ignores the prominent tiers of bikes that Giant, Specialized, and other OEM’s have in the $1K-$3K range. He only mentions the bleeding edge halo bikes.
Rich people will drop 15k on a bike no problem. They aren't made for regular people. People that can afford 10k bikes can afford 15k bikes. They sell like hotcakes in places like NYC, Miami, Los Angeles, San Francisco. The issue is the middle class deserves an amazing bike for like $3000-4000 but that barely gets you a full carbon bike with carbon wheels these days.
They'll reap what they're sowing in 10 years and it won't matter to them. Trek too. Nobody will be willing to work for petty wages on their tech while more lbs close all the time. A bunch of these latest bikes will be disposable, proprietary junk, and they'll keep doing it until the name is worthless. Then they'll switch ceos and do it again.
Lynskey and Moots are both American made bicycles. I think Evil Cycles are made is usa but not 100% if they don’t just assemble in usa and make frames in asia. Not happy how trek and Specialized have treated LBS . Makes me second guess wanting to buy from them.
Honestly, I would love to see more custom Ti or steel frames being built and sold in the USA. If I were going to buy a 3k-5k bike, I would definitely look into Lynskey or Moots and others to have a unique bike that represents my style and not cookie-cutter 5k-10k brands.
@@IKnowAGuyBicycles There is such good value to be found in the used Ti market right now too. Typically the Ti buyer 10yrs ago was the GenX dentist crowd who bought DA/SR high spec Ti. Now, that cohort is upgrading to disc so the rim brake “forever bike” is on offer. I saw a Serotta Ottrot w DA and enve wheels (a work of art) for under 3k obo. Wow.
@daniellarson3068 The same company behind Detroit is behind TIME. They should be producing bikes from the Carbon Fibers up in South Carolina by the end of the year. The company that produces some of the Ozark Trail Bikes for Walmart is also in South Carolina (Although they are I think more an assembler than a manufacturer).
Bought a specialized when they put their bikes on discount due to the covid overstock. Total trash wheel set on the Hardrock MTB. Walmart seems like the perfect fit as quality is no longer a priority for the company.
you get what you pay for man any bike under $1000 for trails is trash i tried looking for this "hardrock" you speak of and couldn't find it anywhere just ppl selling it for less than $400 I hope you didn't pay more 😂
wayyyy too many great, small brands better than the big guys to care about the fate of the big guys. i'll be riding my Guerrilla Gravity, Spot, Banshee or Propain while y'all worry about these mass produced, average bike frames.
Specialized, Trek and Canyon are three brands that have ZERO appeal. Very overpriced and overhyped made by a 3rd party in China with a huge mark up. Chinese direct to consumer bikes are now similar or better quality at much better price.
I am investigating that right now with a long term, daily ride, review of an alleged premier Chinese/Canadian brand named iGO. Small problems from the giddyup, more evolving. My specialized literally eats dirt and no problem for years.
Please "Like" and also " Share" to keep the conversation going. More insights from my perspective with 30 years of experience in the cycling Industry in the playlist: ua-cam.com/play/PLdfUXv0-z1u42bZpCLWmT2VtNW-7AIf2A.html
We need more like this! John knows more about the industry than most people and has seen how the industry got here over his career
Absolutely!
I think the industry would benefit from an association that developed a standard spec for a 9 or 10 speed groupset. If the association spec d pull ratio, bottom bracket width, teeth spacing etc., Consumers would not be so dependent on a few manufactures. Consumers would also know replacement parts could be found 10 or 20 yrs after they purchased their bike. Manufactures could focus one or two parts so new ones would appear. Independent frame manufactures wouldnt be dependent on supply chains controlled by just a few people. Disc brakes and electronic shifting wouldnt be forced on consumers. They would have a choice. The pros could still ride what they wanted. This would cut prices, increase competition and improve quality.
It’s called Patent licensing. You pay a license to the patents owner to use the design. Patents only last 20 years. After that anyone can freely copy the design.
The Patents system today is broken. Instead of innovation. Patents are now weaponized to stifle competition. You can’t use a patented design if the patent owner refuses to license it.
It isnt patent licensing. Part of the problem is patents protect the holder for a limited no of years. In the US it is 18 years. That is one of the reasons why this industry comes up w new BS every year.
Specs are what you see in other industries. This is standard practice in the construction industry. In construction every piece of material has to meet speifications so you know it is trustworthy.
I am sure you see it in other industries. In construction there is no way to build anything trust worthy w/o them.
I fully agree with standards. It's the only way to be confident of long term investments.
I fully agree with standards. It's the only way to be confident of long term investments.
@@iMadrid11well done.
As a long-tern cyclist both 32 years daily working commuter and weekend road cyclist and mountain biker, I've seen a lot of changes over the years, especially the pricing. What I have noticed over the past 2 years or so, there are so many Asian branded bikes/e-bikes that have came on the market, using really good components brands and specs, with some e-bikes that are around 50% to 60% cheaper to purchase for these great quality e-bikes.
However, I have also noticed for almost a year many of the online bike/ebike retailers and direct to customer manufacturers selling to the UK market seem to be having forever sales, which tells me a lot about the market. Looking at the raw goods(components) , the manufacturing costs, staff to build the bikes/e-bikes, marketing/advertising, frame developments and logistics, I have asked like many of my friends in the biking community on the somewhat spirling costs to purchase a bike/ebike. One of my friends made a valid point, without finance companies offering 0% APR finance over say a 4 year period, many of these bikes/e-bikes wouldn't be in our grasp, I have to question why it's acceptable for any manufacturers to sell especially e-bikes up to £10,000 for a fully speced mountain e-bike. Also have you noticed the market is now saturated with hundreds of different brands, to a point I cannot keep up, as there seems to be so many models coming out on a daily basis.
Most that I have spoken to have said they'd pay at most for an e-bike is around £3000 on average, taking into account the cost of living crisis affecting many countries at the moment which Isn't helping many folks. I remember last Christmas Vitus brought out their new E-Mythique range out, within several weeks the 3 models had over £1000 taken off the price due to lack of sales, then to know the company went under. The only way I see things improving is to either bring out e-bikes that are affordable to many, knowing you can easily get a good speced e-bike for around £1500 from the Asian manufacturers. I know I could be here all day talking about why the market has changed, but we all known since that pandemic with over-buying stock etc etc, all I can see in front of me is many manufacturers going out of business and hopefully prices come down to a more affordable level.
Given their “competition by litigation” practices, it would benefit the industry as a whole. Specialized is an anchor that holds back the success of other ethical manufacturers.
I know they don’t have have the best budget offerings but my Pinarello dealer hasn’t complained about the support Pinarello provides.
It isn't Walmat, It's Steuart and Tom's investment company. The same guys that have been pumping out $10,000 MTB through Allied Cycle Works for years.
Interesting discussion. I am not so much concerned with Specialized at Walmart, more of the direct to consumer. So…my Turbo Levo is great! But, as expensive as it is I have spent almost $3K in upgrades since buying it. So, if the frame goes down I am getting a frame set and swapping the group set, handlebars, pedals, cranks, etc. I need a Specialized shop to do that level of service. If I bought that bike online only, who will do the factory warranted software update? Service on restricted parts like suspension? It’s one thing to sell a straight up manual bike but even those need some love. Greed and shareholder revolts ruin businesses. All markets are cyclical, impulsive “fixes” will do more harm than good. To that end I am getting better at bike maintenance. Except the electronics, I don’t think I “need” Specialized any more. That should scare them more than be economic downturn.
I could see Marida selling the Specialized brand, and opening the door to selling their Marida brand in the US. This could be a win for everyone.
... Except Merida no longer has any stake in Specialized and that was bought back years ago. They are still developing and pushing designs.
But it's fun to imagine, I guess.
Dude...the Wasatch Front has amazing mountain biking and Utah's NICA league has 8 regions with over 3,000 kids per region. The youth market alone is massive. I'd put Wasatch Front on par with the Franger market... if not bigger.
Specialized dumped their overstock on big e-tailers that sold at prices that smaller shops couldn't touch. I wonder if some of this is backlash from those shops related to this?
I know the Utah stores that dropped Specialized, it came down to the partnership or lack thereof.
Steuwart and Tom Walton, of Walmart family, are avid mountain bikers and have made huge investments in trails in Bentonville, the mothership of everything Walmart. I would not be surprised if they buy them.
Nothing in the tea leaves yet, but you never know.
Great interview. I really wasn’t expecting that guy to drop an implied F-bomb😂😂😂😂
What a gem!
1. There are too many bike brands. A shake out is necessary. 2. Enthusiasts make lousy business owners.
How many bicycles do Merida make for Walmart?
Not sure, good question.
@@IKnowAGuyBicycles I mention this because here in the UK we have a big chain auto/bicycle store in the UK, biggest retailer of bikes. Halfords, their brands are Carrera , Voodoo and Boardman ( fastest bloke on a bike in the 90s and still a fantastic cycling advocate). Those brands are made by Merida.
If Specialised, Trek, Giant Merida etc are all in such bad shape financially, how do the continue to support multi million dollar word tour teams in virtually all disciplines?
'We're digging out of it'
Narrator: they are not digging out of it.
It could work if Walmart becomes a major player, loot at the Van Rysel bike, that is owned by a major store out of France. I think it could work and perhaps prices would come down.
My dream would be to buy a new $1799.00 Tarmac S-Works from our local Walmart. Just kidding, I wish all these manufacturers the best of luck!
I’m so glad I left the state I grew up in 45 years ago!
Meanwhile, Giant, in their infinite wisdeom (stupidity), decided to raise prices of their bicycles. On what Earth does a bike company decide to raise prices and further exacerbate the chaos in the biking industry, namely pissing the customers off even more? Additionally, Cannondale raised the price of their top tier SuperSix Evo Lab71 $1,000 more from $15,000 to $16,000. Specialized now also sells a "limited" S-Works Tarmac SL8 for $15,000, a $500 price increase. I guess the bike companies either didn't get the memo or they're even more greedy. Or desperate? i've resorted to looking at newer used bikes that are less than 1/2 of what they were when new. As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with buying new in the biking industry.
When bikes change so fast lately, nobody wants to spend a ton of money on a bike that's going to be out of date in 2 years. Safer to buy "just enough" so you can take advantage of the improved features every few years without wasting a ton of money. Wider clearance, Threaded BBs, stuff like that.
Lightly Used bikes are the sweet spot for sure.
OP completely ignores the prominent tiers of bikes that Giant, Specialized, and other OEM’s have in the $1K-$3K range. He only mentions the bleeding edge halo bikes.
As long as dentists can make 5 10/20 Grand a day why not
Rich people will drop 15k on a bike no problem. They aren't made for regular people. People that can afford 10k bikes can afford 15k bikes. They sell like hotcakes in places like NYC, Miami, Los Angeles, San Francisco.
The issue is the middle class deserves an amazing bike for like $3000-4000 but that barely gets you a full carbon bike with carbon wheels these days.
Very interesting stuff!!
Thanks!!
Glad you enjoyed it
Generalized
Stating the obvious...I think- skiers ride bikes in the off season.
They'll reap what they're sowing in 10 years and it won't matter to them. Trek too. Nobody will be willing to work for petty wages on their tech while more lbs close all the time. A bunch of these latest bikes will be disposable, proprietary junk, and they'll keep doing it until the name is worthless. Then they'll switch ceos and do it again.
Lynskey and Moots are both American made bicycles.
I think Evil Cycles are made is usa but not 100% if they don’t just assemble in usa and make frames in asia.
Not happy how trek and Specialized have treated LBS . Makes me second guess wanting to buy from them.
Honestly, I would love to see more custom Ti or steel frames being built and sold in the USA. If I were going to buy a 3k-5k bike, I would definitely look into Lynskey or Moots and others to have a unique bike that represents my style and not cookie-cutter 5k-10k brands.
Detroit Bikes has, I believe, the largest bicycle frame factory in North America. They sell practical bikes.
@@IKnowAGuyBicycles There is such good value to be found in the used Ti market right now too. Typically the Ti buyer 10yrs ago was the GenX dentist crowd who bought DA/SR high spec Ti. Now, that cohort is upgrading to disc so the rim brake “forever bike” is on offer. I saw a Serotta Ottrot w DA and enve wheels (a work of art) for under 3k obo. Wow.
I think Litespeed (where Lynskey used to be) is still cranking out bikes in ChooChoo as well.
@daniellarson3068 The same company behind Detroit is behind TIME. They should be producing bikes from the Carbon Fibers up in South Carolina by the end of the year. The company that produces some of the Ozark Trail Bikes for Walmart is also in South Carolina (Although they are I think more an assembler than a manufacturer).
Can’t wait for sram to make a enduro bike
Might be a Sham
Bought a specialized when they put their bikes on discount due to the covid overstock. Total trash wheel set on the Hardrock MTB. Walmart seems like the perfect fit as quality is no longer a priority for the company.
They could use better specing and not worry about the weight as much.
Spec hasn't made the hardrock in 10+ years???? LOL
you get what you pay for man any bike under $1000 for trails is trash i tried looking for this "hardrock" you speak of and couldn't find it anywhere just ppl selling it for less than $400 I hope you didn't pay more 😂
wayyyy too many great, small brands better than the big guys to care about the fate of the big guys. i'll be riding my Guerrilla Gravity, Spot, Banshee or Propain while y'all worry about these mass produced, average bike frames.
They have the e mountain bike thing going on thats a quality product
Specialized, Trek and Canyon are three brands that have ZERO appeal. Very overpriced and overhyped made by a 3rd party in China with a huge mark up. Chinese direct to consumer bikes are now similar or better quality at much better price.
They probably overspent. There are a limited opportunities to sponsor a team. Competition must be intense.
I am investigating that right now with a long term, daily ride, review of an alleged premier Chinese/Canadian brand named iGO. Small problems from the giddyup, more evolving. My specialized literally eats dirt and no problem for years.