How many Rebounds would Bill and Wilt get in the modern game, and how many Rebounds would modern bigs get in the 60s?? NOTE: If it sounds like I recorded this video in a trash can, that's because I'm out of town, and this hotel room isn't very sound proof. lol. The audio should be back to normal on the next video.
1:04 The only other player from the modern NBA who comes to mind for me is Charles Barkley vs the Suns in 1996. Barkley outrebounded the entire Suns team by grabbing 33 total rebounds.
Moses Malone is the greatest rebounder of all time. It doesn't matter what era you plug him into, he will dominate the offensive glass. Moses used power, quickness, and desire for the ball. He was a quick leaper.
Not sure if you've reached out to ESPN or Fox Sports, or if they've reached out to you, but your videos are top notch. Good luck on your future ventures and great content. 👍🏾
That is one of the most well written video in basketball I saw. Not only relying only on stats, but putting those in perspective in their era and confronting them with further and modern eras. It was very informative and interesting. It showed how much Bill and Wilt were so dominant and why they finally have a case for being the Greatest Basketball player of All Time.
A lot of people tend to criticize bill and wilt cause they versed “plumbers”. THESE TWO WERE DEMI GODS. Wilt’s track and field record just shows… If Bill and Wilt had the modern technology of today’s athletes, it’s over.. 🐐🔥🐐
Yup, if anything older players would be even better today. Of course that balances out somewhat as there is more competition today for sure. Still it's silly and near impossible to make those comparisons. But to take anything away from players back in that era is certainly criminal.
I always said, it doesn’t matter if they’re plumbers. If 3 7 footers are hacking you on every play, it’s tough competition regardless. Who gives a fuck if it’s Shawn Bradley or Hakeem Olajuwon? An elbow to the mouth still hurts.
@@TheKyubiisaan That's another point, back then the game was BRUTAL, anyone who could put up with that type of punishment is legit. A lot of today's stars would have been brokoen by the way the game was back then.
While the game was different then, both Wilt and Russell combined extreme athleticism with extreme skill. Wilt was 7'2" (shoes on like all rookies from '73 on), powerful, could run like a deer, and could jump out the gym. Russell was an even better jumper than Wilt, was more mobile than Wilt, and was quick as a cat. Both players also had great timing so they maximized their athleticism. As somebody who has watched pro hoop since the '60s, I haven't seen a better rebounder than either since and if they played today, Wilt and Russell would be the best rebounders in the NBA.
@@moosezk9681 Guards? Lol First of all we're talking about centers but if you want to talk guards, Oscar Robertson is one of the greatest rebounding guards ever. Also, Jerry West was a good rebounder and there were others too. lol
Good points. Russ was a better high-jumper, Wilt had a higher vertical. Both unique and amazing athletes. Got to see Wilt with the Globe Trotters and met him in the 76er years. I believe he is the greatest combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism in human history.
You have no evidence they weren't shooting threes. Though it seems logical that the number of FGA belong 23' would be less, players like Sam Jones, Hondo, West, Maravich were all taking those shots.
This a great video topic. I’d love to see more videos about the strengths and weaknesses of the different eras. Everyone is so obsessed with the goat debate but the obvious caveat to that discussion is that the era must be taken into consideration. Problem is most of us do not have a real understanding of the different eras because we weren’t able to experience them first hand. Info like this helps to make the conversation more intelligent.
Actually, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar made this same observation when questioned about goat status that you only can voice an opinion about eras when pressed if he was the goat his answer, I think I'm in the conversation which made me smile.
If this video isn’t one of the most enlightening NBA compare and contrast between todays game and the game 60 years ago, then I don’t know what is!! This is absolutely brilliantly done and a gem to say the least! Appreciate how respectful you are towards all the greats and their numbers too!
by far my favorite video you have done. I found your channel during the pandemic and loved the intricacies of your analyses. I hated listening to the "box score" youtubers who gave little to no analysis. I struggled wondering why on earth did people average 20 rebounds back then, and u literally explained it for me perfectly. Your in depth exploration of the nuances of basketball is amazing, and please keep up the great content!
I feel like raw stats like RPG and PPG are poor indicators of actual performance and per 100 stats should be used for comparison, that would minimize the elements that create noise in these stats across stats such as pace. Also, how the hell did the narrative that NBA players were shorter in the 60s start. It may have been somewhat true in Mikan's time, but Wilt and Bill were really athletic and freaks of nature when it came to strength for big men so were able to outrebound clumsier, weaker big men. I hadn't thought about the field goal percentage. Safe to say that offensive boards from second and third attempt rebounds were much higher.
Raw stats are terrible for sure. That's why this video was made. More possessions, more missed shots, more time on the floor = more rebounding opportunities. This is not rocket science.
Another impact on the boards of the increased 3pt attempts is that offensive rebounds for the past several seasons have been hitting all-time lows. Back in the 70s, it hovered around 15 per game. But in recent years, it began dipping below 10. Of course, that also resulted in defensive rebounds reaching all-time highs.
This might be your best video, what a phenomenal breakdown. I'd love to see more eras broken down in this way. I feel it could really help the discourse around the different eras. For example, could a "relative value" of an assist be created based on pace of play, efficiency, etc?
Jxmyhighroller, Jonny Arnett and Thinking Basketball are the best basketball channels in the UA-cam today. ESPN should take notice! Great content, man!
You have the best overall NBA content on UA-cam hands down. Not sure if I said something before but just wanted to comment. I love this game, every single era.
From 1950 to 1976, players staying on the court at least 42 minutes happened all the time... It's happened 85 times in fact. Shortly after the mergers coaches stopped using their star players because the game changed a lot after the NBA-ABA merger. After 1976, players gathering 42 minutes per game became a rare jewel. Every NBA star saw their minutes dipped after the merger! Great video as always.
I'd say in today's game they'd be around that 15 to 18 range for rebounds. Also I have to say you have some of the best NBA content out there and I'm not just talking about UA-cam! You do such an excellent job of breaking down the why's and how's and you go right after the myths placed on the time, team or player(s). You leave no stone unturned!
I remember watching an old highlight reel film of basketball in the 60's and it was horrendously bad! 😅 The amount of layups missed was hilarious and you could see big men gobble up rebounds like it was nothing because on most possessions guards and wings where already at the other end once the shot was up in the air. I'd say in todays game, OG Centers would average around 15 boards a game with the proliferation of guards trying to pad their stats with rebounds. But I'm not sure todays bigs would be as successful because one thing lacking today that happened a lot back then, is good box outs.
I have to agree. From what I have seen, it's like the other positions on the floor had an understanding that the bigs are going to be the sole proprietors of rebounds lol. I know, but but Elgin Baylor, Robertson, West!! Elgin actively said he was going to invade their turf. Oscar was also playing near 45 minutes a game. Their rebounds are inflated as well from all the opportunities. But yeah, I agree the offensive schemes of that day allowed for more camping in the paint for boards.
I wouldn't say there was less ball movement, have you seen some teams play today? ISO, ISO, ISO. Higher pace, more misses is the main reason, with Wilt and Bill being very athletic and talented
Dude your content and research is on point!! I love this channel. I have 4 basketball analysis channels I watch and yours is number 1!!! And loooooove the intro!! It’s the first thing that caught my attention when I found this channel 2yrs ago. Respect!!
Awesome video! It seems to me that, roughly adjusted for FG percentage and modern long rebounds, elite rebounders get around 30 percent of the total rebounds. If that's true, then I think 23 rebounds per game in the 1960s would be around 14 rebounds per game today. Moses Malone and Dennis Rodman would grab nearly as many rebounds as Wilt and Russell in the 1960s. And today, Wilt and Russell would grab around 15 per game. Bill Russell understood basketball at a different level than the rest of us. He's a wizard. Russell possessed an extra dimension of understanding. What we think we know about basketball, we don't - and Russell does. People forget the importance of wingspan. Wilt Chamberlain had an insane 92.5-inch wingspan. Kevin McHale was a freak at 6-10 with a 90-inch wingspan. I don't know what Russell's wingspan is, but it looks very, very long. So even though he was nearly 6-10, his arms made him MUCH longer. Here's a video I made (borrowing from others) in which I tried to show Russell's impact at game speed: ua-cam.com/video/RoXQtpuqaQg/v-deo.html He was the rangiest player who ever lived. And he resided in another dimension. Let's call it, the Russell dimension.
They played a game that was faster pace with very lil breaks. U still need the motor to execute all those rebounds. Wilt had way more responsibility on offensive end and still is top dog in boards he’s forever the Chairman of the boards.
*The fact that they dominated the boards against players close to there size makes it even more incredible* 👏👏👏👏👏👏 I think in today's game Wilt would average somewhere around 15-18RPG and Russell around 12RPG or maybe even lower because of his size.
he was 6'10 bare foot😭 and 240 at his heaviest...he was one of the most athletic players of all time, if Dennis could average 18 bill could average 22...they have similar rebounding iqs but bill was bigger, faster and jumped higher...maybe even stronger...bill also hounded for the ball similar to Dennis!!!
@@pioplu4803 agreed I just can't see Russell dominate today like he did when he played. Players are way more athletic. He'd have no advantage. And to be fair Bill was only around 6'8 or 6'9
Charles Barkley dominated the boards being a lot shorter than many Centers. Russell at 6'10+ with shoes on would certainly be able to put up huge rebound numbers with his athleticism & stamina (just ability to stay on the court).
Another great vid. Thank you for producing intelligent content. Now to answer your question. I believe there are 2 possible scenarios whenever you talk about bringing a player to a different era. If we are talking about the time machine principle, where we bring prime Russell and prime Chamberlain to the modern era as they were and just plugging them into the modern game, obviously there would be an adjustment period. Once they acclimated themselves to the modern game, I believe Bill would be very similar to Dennis Rodman, but even more dominant. His intelligence and understanding of the game would transcend era and time, and his otherworldly athleticism would lead to monstrous numbers by today's standards. I would estimate his rebounding numbers around 14-18 per game easily. Wilt had so many skills that were never fully displayed in NBA games. He played for the Harlem Globetrotters for a season after he left Kansas. He started out at center for them, but, after seeing the whole scope of his skills, as well as his popularity, the team elected to move him to the starting 2 guard in order to put the ball in his hands more. I know the conventional wisdom is to equate Wilt to Shaq because of his strength and physical dominance, but understanding these skills, I believe the closest modern player to what Wilt would be in the modern game is Giannis. Looking at Giannis and what he's doing, then realizing that physically Wilt was everything he is, but taller, longer, faster, stronger and with a ridiculous vertical, I have to imagine sort of an "unleashed" version of Wilt would still average 16-20 rebounds a game. Now if you take These two and move them to the modern era where they grew up with video of Olajuwon and Shaq and watched the And 1 tour and all those things, they would be completely different people, but the talent, the physical attributes, the will to win would all be the same. In this scenario, Bill probably averages about 12-14 rebounds while focusing more of his game on offense. He is still dominant on the boards and can take over games at times.Wilt, on the other hand has a much higher ceiling. We know he was able to shoot quite well for his era. With modern coaching his jump shot develops into a serviceable at worst three point game. He was able to handle the ball as well as any center of that era. In the modern game he would absolutely dominate the boards and then be able to lead the break himself or outlet pass to a streaking teammate for easy buckets. I still see him averaging 16-20 boards consistently.
Nowadays Wilt and Bill would average around 20 in their primes and around 18 for their careers, they are still the 2 most athletic centers the NBA has ever seen by far and 2 of the 5 most athletic players ever, add a great height (about 2 inches over the average for Bill and 5 for Wilt due to modern shoes adding 1.5-2 inches) and extremely long arms with very big hands and they would dominate the interior easily. Also a slower pace give them a better chance at being under each basket for every rebound (it was harder in the 60s despite their speed because the game was that fast) and having less possessions means more energy per possession so they would have more energy to fight for every rebound. Guys like Pettit, Thurmond, Lucas, Bellamy or Baylor would average around 16-18 in their primes and around 14-16 for their careers. We also have to really take into consideration that most these guys were as obsessed with rebounding as Rodman (Jerry Lucas' nickname was The Computer because he always studied how the ball bounced off the rim when other players shot and learned were to go when a player shot to get the rebound) because they understood that on defense the possession is not over until you get the rebound and on offense more rebounds means more shots and hence more points. And modern centers would get more rebounds obviously, but safe for Dwight, Drummond, maybe Capela and apparently Jokic no one would get past 15 for more than a couple seasons because I don't see them having rebound as a priority, plus if they played against the 60s center many would have a height and athleticism disadvantage, as centers back then were more focused than modern centers in the physical part of the game, and modern players are more focused on things like 3pt shooting or face up scoring. It is more about attitude than it is era or height, just watch the best "modern" rebounder, Rodman (more video and more accessible), it was all about that hunger for the ball and not his height, weight, athleticism or even competition.
@@bwink23 wow, awesome argument, and yes, smaller centers and mostly smaller powerforwards plus less possessions so they can use more energy per possession and have a way better chance of fighting for a higher % of rebounds plus their waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger hunger for rebounds would give them a great advantage and ge them to the numbers I mentioned, just watch what Rodman did in a slower era, being smaller, and competing against much bigger centers and powerforwards, if you think they wouldn't get the numbers i mentioned you are pretty uneducated on 60s players or very dellusional
@@bwink23 uhhhhhh Nikola Jokic won MVP last year. Yeah uhhhhh yeahhhhh that happened. NIKOLA JOKIC 1 MVP in 2020s. SHAQUILLE O’NEAL 0 MVPs in 1990s. 😩😂😂😂✌🏽🤦♂️
About the undersized part, the weight is the difference in the 2010s is 225lbs. In 1961-1970, the average weight is 202lbs. In basketball, that’s a significant difference.
Wilt would lead the league in rebounding today,just pluck him right out of the 60s converses and all and he would do it easily and if he heard Andre Drummond call himself the best rebounder ever Wilt would set the record against him.Thats who Chamberlain was it's no coincidence that his regular season rebounding record and his playoff rebounding record came against Bill Russell also 7 (almost half) of his 40 rebound games came against Russell and that he averaged 5 more rebounds head to head. The guy was blocking Kareem's sky hook at its Apex when he was old on one good leg and 310 pounds. The man was simply the greatest and it gets a little tiring to see people try to negate his stats but no one else's.Should we adjust LeBrons' scoring because of defensive 3 seconds, restricted zone and no hand checking or his assists because players can dribble before they take the shot. What would Chamberlain rebound in today's game where many teams don't even try for an offensive rebound probably around 22.
You're denying the facts about the 60's Nba basketball and you complain that younglings don't align their views on yours , we know that Wilt is an athletic phenom , it's pretty obvious but no way he would put up the ridiculous numbers there was back then , it will lower regardless of what you believe
@@warkunitale I look at it more as available energy to expend,we both know that he had the greatest stamina in the game.So if he plays at a slower pace than it follows that he would have more energy for rebounding. In the 1967 playoffs against the Celtics and Bill Russell he grabbed an average of 32 rebounds per game on his triple double average of 21 pts,32 rebounds and 10 assists,he out rebounded Russell by nearly 9 and had almost half of his team average 65 rebounds.What I am saying is if he put his mind to rebounding at least 22 per game he would have the skill, athleticism, intelligence,and stamina to do so.
@@johncrom1400 with less possessions and way less missed shots on average in the league plus the fact that centers can't sit in the paint as long as they could in the 60's , I doubt he would average the same amount of rebounds , he will most likely still be the best rebounder during several seasons but 20 plus rebounds will not happen as frequently , and a lower pace don't save you stamina , you still has to use energy on defense for longer , it won't change much for Wilt with his stamina anyway but putting his mind into it won't maintain the same amount he had then all of his career .
Beautiful video for giving so much more respect to the old school than most people have the brain capacity to do. This why I love your vids. Forgot to mention, the reason the majority of the top 25 rebounders are in the 60s is the same reason the most hof bigs at one time are in the 60s and that’s because of skill lol. The mid 60s to early 70s simply produced the best rebounders of any era as the most fundamentally sound on the boards with gifted timing to go along with whatever their pshical gifts were. They were better rebounders than the late 40s-late 50s before them as well as the eras after them from 80s-today. Simple as that. There’s a reason you see guys whose long careers were closer to the 80s and 90s than they were to the mid 60s and early 70s still get out rebounded in their prime by guys like old wilt Chamberlain and old bill Russell etc… such is even the case with goat tier Kareem in his prime young in the early 70s when faced against old wilt getting beat on the boards consistently year after year game after game as well as even finding himself getting beat by the Nate Thurmonds of the league as well. Thus why these guys mostly stay top 25 rebounders no matter what era they play in As usual I just have to correct the inflated stats argument. There’s so many examples of why wilt and Russell would easily lead the league in rebounding today and in any other era by large margins. One of many that I actually don’t think I have given you guys yet is to look no further than the 7 seasons between 1961 and 1967 where bill Russell averaged his career highs in rebounds in 1964 and 1965 back to back. During back to back years surrounding 64 and 65, (1961-1963 and 1966-1967) the pace and attempts at years reached considerably higher attempts and lower fg percentage. In 1961 the fg attempts was as high as 109.4 and percentage was as low as 41%. Fast forward to 1964 which is the year bill russel had his career high 24.7 rebounds per game average leading the league in rebounding as well, the league fg attempts were as low as 99.1! Over 10 attempts lower! Meanwhile the field goal percentage was higher as well at 43.3 percent. Over 2 percent higher. Yet here bill Russell is crushing what he did during a year where inflated stats argument says he should’ve did much worse. Thus it’s only reasonable to assume bill would be able to do the same starting in 1990 and have a couple back to back career highs even higher than his in his own time where the attempts finally dropped to over 10 less again and over 2 percent high FG percentage again (just 4 percent higher than 1962) than his career high year in 1962. That’s how weak of an argument anyone is going to be using when they say Russell and Wilts numbers are going to decrease and decrease so much that they’d wouldn’t lead the league or dominate like they did in their time numbers wise in other eras like 90s-today, if they use this severely broken and debunked inflated stats argument to try n prove that. Plus it takes far more stamina to play a higher paced game without as many stops while averaging the minutes wilt and bill averaged which the inflated stats argument also ignores. On top of that it ignores the fact that wilt and bill would have so much more conserved energy in a slower paced game even with load management and defensive 3 second rule, that they’d be able to play the most minutes of any player in the league today or any other era and dominate each game taking over the majority of the rebounds that are available far more than the majority of rebounds they took in their time that were available due to such a huge lack of taxing on the body and stamina usage that they’d have to their benefit. Not to mention lack of defense, lack of rebounders n bigs compared to their era, lack of physicality, far more free throws to get rebounds etc… and the biggest fact yet that the inflated stat argument completely misses is that they show the pattern of dominating the rebounds leading the league as the top 2 all the way up to the years they retired where the pace was getting slower and slower and attempts was getting lower but fg percentage was getting higher. And tho it was a smaller avg than their prime rbpg, they were in their old age literal last year and the number was still in the ballpark within a 3 point difference of Their career average!!! Especially in the case for Wilt whom did this till the last day of his career post surgery. So just imagine how many more rebounds theyd average if their primes were in the years that they led the league in rebounding as old injury riddled men??? Therefore if they played today, there’s far more evidence with all the luxuries theyd benefit from today, as well as in other eras like the 90s that they’d put up just as impressive numbers if not more impressive and even more certainly, lead the league in what they led in their time dominating all the same even if the unlikelihood of not putting up as impressive numbers as they did in their time happened. In other eras after them besides todays era, they had much of the same luxuries to do the same. In the 90s the best rebounding competition wilt and Russell would have to deal with is a 6 foot 7 less physical and rebounding presence than wes Unseld, power forward named Dennis Rodman who out rebounded all of his centers at the 4 position. This shows how much the bigs had already fallen by the 90s. No evidence supports that anything close to what rodman did his centers would happen in the 90s to wilt or Russell. Plus less hof centers to challenge them than what they faced in their era. Case closed. Great video!! Hope more n more of the new age fans wake up. It only helps the culture of this wonderful sport.
Bro, love Your channel. The amount of facts You provide in each vid is insane. One thing You should improve is Your sound system. The content You provide is way to good to sound like that. Best of luck friend.
For sure! My pinned comment on this video explains why it does. It’s definitely not the usual sounds quality. Thanks for watching the video and for the feedback :)
They would play 48mpg... If they were doing it back then with Faster Pace.... Drummond gets 14-15rpg... Wilt would get 20+...7'2" stronger than shaq as athletic as Jordan...
@@reimixo they wouldn’t play 48 minutes a game, players like Giannis play around 30 minutes a game because they are blowing out teams when they’re on the court
Rebounding is always important. Basketball is an alternate possession game. The more rebounds you get, the more scoring opportunities your team gets and fewer your opponent gets
Well perhaps if Wilt is averaging 22.9 rebounds per season for his whole career. I reckon that with 20 less possessions a game, a 5% reduction in rebounds from there due to accuracy increase on shots and only 60% of the remainder being closer to the hoop. Wilt would be averaging 10.73 rebounds a game on 2pt shots. Plus whatever he gets on 3pt shots as Wilt is tall enough with reactions enough to be able to be able to time and judge direction off the hoop, so possibly at least 1 of those per game seems reasonable. So maybe 962 on an average season, could break 1000 if he has a strong season and has good teammates pressuring shots.
I'm actually doing a write up on Wilt Chamberlain and what he'd average in the modern game, as well as the more recent past during the 1990's. I chose three different years of Wilt's career; 61/62 offensive peak at age 25, 66/67 Wilt as post distributer, and 71/72 Wilt post knee injury and working as the best defensive force in the game. There was a lot of effort put into the translation of different eras pace and style of play, as well as statistical trends that encompass the center position across time. If you'd like the math behind this I can provide it, and will do so in the eventual finished article. Anyway, here it is: 1961/1962, 25 year old Wilt if he played in: 2020/2021 at 36 minutes per game: 35.4 PPG 64.06 TS% 14.49/23.22 FG, 62.4% 6.42/10.47 FT, 61.3% 16.09 RPG (24.22 TRB%) 1.7 APG 4.45 BPG The 1990’s at 40 minutes per game: 34.17 PPG 59.55 TS% 13.91/24.12 FG, 57.6% 6.36/10.38 FT, 61.3% 15.21 RPG (22.46 TRB% ) 1.7 APG 5.86 BPG (If following same career arc as previous shot blocking greats) Wilt’s raw stats from 1961/1962: 48.5 MPG 50.4 PPG 53.6 TS% 20.0/39.5 FG, 50.6% 10.4/17.0 FT, 61.3% 25.7 RPG (17.65 TRB%, 1st in league, the rest of top five averaged 15.05 TRB%) 2.4 APG 13.66 BPG (based on 3 games recorded by Harvey Pollack, averaging 49.67 MPG) --------------------------------------------------- 1966/1967, 30 year old Wilt, if he played in: 2020/2021 at 36 minutes per game: 20.7 PPG 73.90 TS% 8.58/10.48 FG, 81.9% 3.51/7.97 FT, 44.1% 16.38 RPG (24.65 TRB%) 6.53 APG 4.06 BPG The 1990’s at 40 minutes per game: 20.01 PPG 68.90 TS% 8.18/10.88 FG, 75.189% 3.65/8.27 FTA, 44.1% 15.47 RPG (22.85 TRB% ) 6.5 APG 5.37 BPG (if following same career arc) Wilt’s raw stats from 1966/1967: 45.5 MPG 24.1 PPG 63.7 TS% 9.7/14.2 FG, 68.3% 4.8/10.8 FT, 44.1% 24.2 RPG (18.64 TRB%, 1st again, with the rest of top five averaging 16.07 TRB%) 7.8 APG 9.33 BPG (based on 9 games recorded by Pollack, averaging 45.67 MPG) --------------------------------------------------- 1971/1972, 35 year old Wilt if he played in: 2020/2021 at 32 minutes per game: 11.78 PPG 69.212 TS% 5.03/6.73 FGA, 74.77% 1.72/4.08 FTA, 42.20% 13.32 RPG (22.60 TRB% = average of 3rd place in era of three ball 16/17 -20/21) 3.16 APG 2.93 BPG The 1990’s at 36 minutes per game: 11.54 PPG 64.3962 TS% 4.87/7.07 FGA, 68.79% 1.81/4.29 FTA, 42.20% 12.08 RPG (20.31 TRB% = the average of 1990’s 3rd place averages) 3.15 APG 3.94 BPG Wilt’s raw stats for 1971/1972: 42.3 Minutes per game 14.8 PPG 61.0 TS% 6.0/9.3 FG, 64.9% 2.7/6.4 FT, 42.2% 19.2 RPG (20.08 TRB%, 3rd in league) 4.0 APG 7.44 BPG (based on 25 games recorded by Harvey Pollack, averaging 43.68 MPG)
I'd say they would average around 18 rebounds a game, playing around 36 minutes, considering the fact that teams don't tend to play their bigs more than that and that they would be dragged further from the basket. That would still make them far better rebounders than any current player. This is not taking into consideration the idea that they may be even more athletic with today's training regiment.
@@hughjass4736 bill russell and wilt chamberlains athletic skills were highly exaggerated. Bill Russell is a top 5 player all time but he would not be the best rebounder in the league if he played today, not even close.
The height may be similar but the weight could be very different. I personally give Wilt the title as GOAT Rebounder because I look into Per 36. To me, it's the most reliable for all eras and it really crunches up everyone's stat as if they only played 36 minutes. It may not be perfect but I believe it is the closest we'll get.
The reason why their rebounding stats make them look like demi-gods is because they ARE demi-gods. You can't tekk me they're not the sons of some mastermind god.
so Bob Petit is also a demi-god ? If we're talking rebounding for example , this guy too has way more rebounds than any great rebounder the Nba has seen since the 60's
So.... putting things in perspective: Rodman in his best year played 40.3 minutes, compared to wilts 48.5 In his best year, the avr rebounds was 43.7 per team, compared to wilts 71.4 Rodman averaged 18.7 rebounds in that year. If he were to have the same nr of rebounds: 18.7 * (71.4/43.7) = 30.55 rebounds/game. If rodman would play as much (and I think Rodman is one of the few who could, given his crazy workrate they speak of): 30.55 * (48.5/40.3) = 36.78 rebounds/game. Wilt got up to 27.2, so yes. Rodman seems to be the better rebounder -- even ignoring the three point shot... and by almost 10 rebounds per game. Let that sink in. Rodman would probably have an average of 35 rebounds a game. A 50 rebound performance wouldn't be that strange; his max was 29 so about 50% more. Hence, would Wilt and Russel dominate? Probably not as much on the boards. Their rebounding figures are 'inflated' almost 100% by more playing time and more shots.
In the past week in separate games: Andre Drummond: 43 mins, 23 reb Jarrett Allen: 34 mins, 22 reb If Wilt is playing 48 mins today he's shitting in 25 boards.
It could also means more shots made but somehow you finish with a 41 fg% average for the league , this is horrendous , even Russel has a 42 fg% average in career , Wilt was one of the sole guys maybe the only really in that era with a high 50 fg% and I guess that explains his scoring numbers .
What's also worth noting is back in the day, they actually used to fight for rebounds. Nowadays, more often than not, shot goes up just get back on defense. I absolutely hate that about today's game.
If they both played 30 minutes a night then because of their designated position and spots on the court I can very easily see Russ and Wilt grabbing 15-17 boards a night each, but having the ability to do more because their stamina although their lack of spacing would make it harder on coach’s to draw defenders so they might only play 30 minutes a game anyway
My guess is that Wilt with his speed, agility and strength would ave around 14-17 in his prime. Wouldnt be surprised if he had some 32-17-5-1-4 type seasons..Giannis shit but more athletic. Russ would have 17-15-6-2-3 numbers, like a Draymond but Rodmans RBs and Joakim Noah offense
Great video and I can think of a few guys that would put up great rebounding numbers. These the only players I think that could put Wilt and Bill like numbers in their time Rodman Shaq Hakeem KG
I looked over Gianni's and embiids rebounds. these players are definitely most similar to wilt and Russel, and I think they could really solidly put up 15 to 20 rebounds per game like you guys said in that other video
Great video as usual Jonny but one thing you didn't mention was that offensive rebounds weren't even recorded in their time. I think that Wilt & Bill were as or more athletic than Rodman as well as being taller & stronger, especially Wilt. More possessions & shots mean more running up & down so to play 40+ mins for 10+ years means Bill & Wilts stamina was off the charts! Plus no crazy antics like Dennis, just even more focus, so yeah I think they could average 20+ boards any era.
Nah though , unless they decide to do camping under the basket like back then , if not is would only be possible in their best seasons and it will dip , they would still be great rebounders though no doubt about it
@@warkunitale In 91 & 92 Dennis Rodman averaged 18rpg, so I think it possible for Wilt and Bill to have gotten 20+ in any era. I never said for their whole career but if anyone could do it, it would be them.
The one thing all pundits overlook is that rebounding includes footwork and effort. These two rebounded well because they worked at it. They moved to a high percentage position based on the angle of the shot. Most players today don’t work for better positioning. Rodman did, which is why he did so well. Big men back then were more active than they are today.
Rebounding is a very hard art to master. You need to be instinctive, meaning you need to be at the right place at the right time, everytime. You also need the size, strength and athleticism to back it up. Honestly, players nowadays are far more athletic than the athletes in the past and they will dominate the boards. BUT and a big but, Bill and Wilt are anomalies in their time. Even if they played more minutes, their stamina is just inhuman that they can still keep up. They deserve to be called demigods of rebounds just because they were just good at grabbing boards. To those telling that Wilt and Bill will be just average in today's game, you need to check them if they're on crack.
As much as the era/pace/efficiency definitely play a role in just how high Bill and Wilt's numbers are relative to modern players, the fact that their peers weren't putting up the same numbers on different teams inclines me to give them most of thr credit. You might have one or two guys pop into the neighborhood of what Bill and Wilt were doing, but they didn't sustain it. And the fact that the next best all time rebounder people can name - Rodman - was no where near the kind of scorer of even Bill, let alone Wilt (or even if you extend it to Moses who had impressive peaks in rebounding and scoring but wasn't the kind of passer that either Bill or Wilt were - averaging less than a third of their assists per game on his career and almost certainly WAY fewer blocks) and you even up the reality that Bill and Wilt were exceptional generational talents and not merely products of their era or their systems. You can't be a do-it-all player, multiple time champion, multiple time league leader, AND "just" in the right place at the right time. Maybe if they were playing in the 90s they'd have gotten fewer rebounds per game than Rodman. But when you look at how MUCH better they were than their peers, we have to acknowledge they'd have filled up the rest of the stat sheet to such a degree that it would shake up everything else about how that era (or any other era with them dropped into) went and no one would question who was a better overall player. Bill and Wilt don't HAVE to be the greatest rebounders of all time to deserve recognition for their achievements - but the fact that they are not just in the conversation but leading it is merely a testament to just how much recognition they are entitled to.
Bill and Wilt were better at rebounding than their peers but not outlandishly much better if you look the rebound numbers of centers then , wa can recognize that those two players were unique but did still played in a favorable era when it comes to certain stats , that's undeniable truth too
@@warkunitale dude there's only 5 players in NBA history to average 15 or more Total Rebounds across their career and Bill and Wilt are two of them - and both averaged more than 22. That's 50% more than their best competition before, during, and after their tenure. That'd be like if Steph was averaging 45 ppg for his entire career and someone said it's just a product of the 3 point era and plenty of his peers were making lots of 3s too while Jordan and Lebron are both out there with sub 35 career averages. Come on now, it ain't the same.
@@akkronym48 And what is the number of player averaging 15 or more rebounds in a career who played outside the 60's NBA ? I wait . I'm fine with recognizing that Wilt and Russel were the best rebounders or their eras and maybe all-time if we account for adjustments to other eras , it don't negate the fact that those numbers are also a byproduct of their era , they were not the only centers to average 20 rebs certain seasons then . It was definitely something more common for obvious reasons . That's the blunt reality , I'm not trying to despise them for free
@@warkunitale then you're missing the point. Setting aside what their career averages actually were, they were from rookie to retire 50% better than the next best guys. You can't say that about Rodman or Drummond or Dwight or Gobert or Barkley or Malone. We can chalk 22+ up to era, but we can't chalk 50% better than everyone else up to era - that has to be on them. Yes they absolutely played in a favorable era for rebounding - but they were still mountains better at it than their also all-time-great doing-this-professionally peers to a degree no one has been able to replicate. If we want to say that someone else was a better rebounder because they player in a harder era to get rebounds and still got a lot - fine, we can play that what if and give someone else their flowers. But their excellence will have been a slimmer margin over their contemporaries than Bill and Wilt's excellence was and however you want to diminish the credit they deserve, you cannot simply wave your hand at the other people who could sometimes do some of what they did and ignore that no one else did it the way they could.
Another thing that keeps rebounds for centers so low these days is the predominance of stretch bigs. Back then, Russell and Wilt were just hanging out under the basket on defense, today they'd be pulled out to the perimeter and their rebound numbers would go way down Another question: Given how competitive and athletic these guys are, would they have been able to develop outside shots to play as more modern big men? Russell might have stuck down low as a "throwback" big, but it's hard for me to imagine anything Wilt *couldn't* do with his game. I can absolutely picture him developing an outside shot
Weren't there more free throw attempts in early basketball eras? Before the loose ball foul was created, didn't players shoot free throws instead of taking the ball out? There are probably other rules changes that have also affected the number of rebounds per game.
If we did approximation math by putting the ratio of 60s / Present era avg rebound per team at 70/40 and applied it to Wilt's 25 rebound per game average, the number comes to 14.29 rebounds a game today. This is an awesome league-topping number but one that makes sense and not demigoddish.
Another reason there were more rebounds in the 60s is that every defensive foul resulted in one or more free throws. None of this taking the ball out of bounds on non-shooting fouls until reaching the penalty. The big men who lined up next to the basket on free throw attempts got a lot of easy rebounds on missed free throws. This also partially explains why centers and power forwards got a disproportionate share of the rebounds in the 60s compared to today.
The stats at the Basketball Reference site are amazing. Let's look at the difference between Wilt's '61-'62 season (the 50.4 ppg season) and the last full season that LeBron played ('17-'18) For Wilt, the regular season started on 10/19/61 and ended on 3/14/62. 80 games in 147 days. In those 80 games, Wilt played 12 back-to-backs, 8 triple headers, 2 stints of four straight days and between 1/17/62 and 1/21/62 five consecutive nights (!!) (granted it was a home stint). In that five game stretch (two of which were OT games), Wilt averaged 55 ppg and 25.2 rpg, while on the floor for every single minute of the 250 minutes. For LeBron, the '17-'18 regular season started on 10/17/17 and ended on 4/11/18. 82 games in 177 days; two more games in thirty extra days. In those 82 games LeBron played 13 back-to-backs. No triple headers and certainly no four- or five-game stretches. Granted in '61-'62 the only team west of the Mississippi was the LA Lakers (OK, OK, technically the St Louis Hawks were west of the Mississippi, but only by a couple of miles). And usually when a team played the Lakers, they were back-to-backs on one team's court. But there was one MASSIVE difference -- in the '60s teams mostly traveled commercially by air, and many times by bus. All this to say that you really shouldn't discount the teams and players of the '60s and early '70s. To do so is usually due to recency bias. While we can all argue as to who is the GOAT from now until the end of time, to say the players of the '60s weren't athletes is foolish. Check out Oscar Robertson's first five years for one example. One thing that would be hard to argue against is that Wilt was the most physically dominant player in NBA history. I mean, who else dislocated an opposing player's shoulder with a shot block?
3 point line was introduced at 1979. By then rebounding numbers were declining for 20+ years. Not sure why it was chosen as the the first reason while it contribution is so negligible in comparison to minutes per game of start players or FGA numbers.
Pls do the same for the 2020s and 1960s overall stats versus 1980s and 1990s. I feel the 2020s and 1960s are both bloated in all statistical categories.
The rims back then were also built with much less give. They were closer to outdoor rims than the ones the NBA has been using since at least the early 90s.
How many Rebounds would Bill and Wilt get in the modern game, and how many Rebounds would modern bigs get in the 60s??
NOTE: If it sounds like I recorded this video in a trash can, that's because I'm out of town, and this hotel room isn't very sound proof. lol. The audio should be back to normal on the next video.
14-15, just like the other best rebounders in the current NBA
I would still think 15-20
I think they'd get 14-19 in their prime depends on their minutes played and teammates
I say 12-16 rebs. The sound was good, I could still hear and understand you just fine
wilt 15 bill 17
1:04 The only other player from the modern NBA who comes to mind for me is Charles Barkley vs the Suns in 1996. Barkley outrebounded the entire Suns team by grabbing 33 total rebounds.
Sir Charles stands six foot four inches.
@@juicethreetwo at least he played in a decent era
Moses Malone is the greatest rebounder of all time. It doesn't matter what era you plug him into, he will dominate the offensive glass. Moses used power, quickness, and desire for the ball. He was a quick leaper.
I think Kevin Love got 30 in a game once.
Not sure if you've reached out to ESPN or Fox Sports, or if they've reached out to you, but your videos are top notch. Good luck on your future ventures and great content. 👍🏾
I agree but I think companies partnering with NBA UA-camrs like Jonny is the next wave anyway
What's a fox sports anyway?
Especially with nba 75 this year his content would be great
@@GarkKahn A sports channel owned by FOX Entertainment.
underrated comment
That is one of the most well written video in basketball I saw. Not only relying only on stats, but putting those in perspective in their era and confronting them with further and modern eras.
It was very informative and interesting. It showed how much Bill and Wilt were so dominant and why they finally have a case for being the Greatest Basketball player of All Time.
Great comment
A lot of people tend to criticize bill and wilt cause they versed “plumbers”. THESE TWO WERE DEMI GODS. Wilt’s track and field record just shows… If Bill and Wilt had the modern technology of today’s athletes, it’s over.. 🐐🔥🐐
Yup, if anything older players would be even better today. Of course that balances out somewhat as there is more competition today for sure. Still it's silly and near impossible to make those comparisons. But to take anything away from players back in that era is certainly criminal.
I always said, it doesn’t matter if they’re plumbers. If 3 7 footers are hacking you on every play, it’s tough competition regardless. Who gives a fuck if it’s Shawn Bradley or Hakeem Olajuwon? An elbow to the mouth still hurts.
@@TheKyubiisaan That's another point, back then the game was BRUTAL, anyone who could put up with that type of punishment is legit. A lot of today's stars would have been brokoen by the way the game was back then.
Not to mention bill was a world class Olympic athlete as well for like high jumping or something like that I believe
Also the average height back then was 6’6 and idk about you but I’ve never seen a 6’6 plumber
While the game was different then, both Wilt and Russell combined extreme athleticism with extreme skill. Wilt was 7'2" (shoes on like all rookies from '73 on), powerful, could run like a deer, and could jump out the gym. Russell was an even better jumper than Wilt, was more mobile than Wilt, and was quick as a cat. Both players also had great timing so they maximized their athleticism. As somebody who has watched pro hoop since the '60s, I haven't seen a better rebounder than either since and if they played today, Wilt and Russell would be the best rebounders in the NBA.
Eaaaasy, I seen the footage, dudes in the 60s that were guards were not good rebounders lol
@@moosezk9681 Guards? Lol First of all we're talking about centers but if you want to talk guards, Oscar Robertson is one of the greatest rebounding guards ever. Also, Jerry West was a good rebounder and there were others too. lol
Good points. Russ was a better high-jumper, Wilt had a higher vertical. Both unique and amazing athletes. Got to see Wilt with the Globe Trotters and met him in the 76er years. I believe he is the greatest combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism in human history.
@@moosezk9681 Maybe so but they also weren't shooting 3 all the time and giving up long rebounds and centers could camp around the paint.
You have no evidence they weren't shooting threes. Though it seems logical that the number of FGA belong 23' would be less, players like Sam Jones, Hondo, West, Maravich were all taking those shots.
This a great video topic. I’d love to see more videos about the strengths and weaknesses of the different eras.
Everyone is so obsessed with the goat debate but the obvious caveat to that discussion is that the era must be taken into consideration. Problem is most of us do not have a real understanding of the different eras because we weren’t able to experience them first hand. Info like this helps to make the conversation more intelligent.
Actually, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar made this same observation when questioned about goat status that you only can voice an opinion about eras when pressed if he was the goat his answer, I think I'm in the conversation which made me smile.
If this video isn’t one of the most enlightening NBA compare and contrast between todays game and the game 60 years ago, then I don’t know what is!! This is absolutely brilliantly done and a gem to say the least! Appreciate how respectful you are towards all the greats and their numbers too!
It's always fun to learn about Chamberlain and Russell...
The best!
Finally the video to give context to the numbers! Great vid!
Idk how you haven't blown yet your vids are awesome keep it up 👍🏿
by far my favorite video you have done. I found your channel during the pandemic and loved the intricacies of your analyses. I hated listening to the "box score" youtubers who gave little to no analysis. I struggled wondering why on earth did people average 20 rebounds back then, and u literally explained it for me perfectly. Your in depth exploration of the nuances of basketball is amazing, and please keep up the great content!
Nice analysis. You managed to hit every point I could think of, plus
I feel like raw stats like RPG and PPG are poor indicators of actual performance and per 100 stats should be used for comparison, that would minimize the elements that create noise in these stats across stats such as pace. Also, how the hell did the narrative that NBA players were shorter in the 60s start. It may have been somewhat true in Mikan's time, but Wilt and Bill were really athletic and freaks of nature when it came to strength for big men so were able to outrebound clumsier, weaker big men.
I hadn't thought about the field goal percentage. Safe to say that offensive boards from second and third attempt rebounds were much higher.
Per 100 isn’t an exact “science” and actually creates more distortion with assumptions on player’s stats that purposely ignores nuisance & context.
It started because NBA players were shorter in the 60s
Raw stats are terrible for sure. That's why this video was made. More possessions, more missed shots, more time on the floor = more rebounding opportunities.
This is not rocket science.
@@bwink23 raw stats with no context are terrible. Per 100, Per 75, Per 36, Per 48-aren’t that much better as raw stats.
@@bwink23 According to PER, James Harden was a "better" than Kareem and Hakeem...GTFOH!!!
Another impact on the boards of the increased 3pt attempts is that offensive rebounds for the past several seasons have been hitting all-time lows. Back in the 70s, it hovered around 15 per game. But in recent years, it began dipping below 10. Of course, that also resulted in defensive rebounds reaching all-time highs.
Every time I watch your videos I learn something new. That’s why I love your channel
Thanks for the comment! That’s honestly my goal when writing a script, so I’m happy to hear it’s having an effect :) Thanks again
@@jonnyarnett 🐐
Your content is the best about NBA I've ever seen on UA-cam bro, keep going!
This is such a great explanation. Thank you for this!
You're welcome! Thank you for watching!
This might be your best video, what a phenomenal breakdown. I'd love to see more eras broken down in this way. I feel it could really help the discourse around the different eras. For example, could a "relative value" of an assist be created based on pace of play, efficiency, etc?
Jxmyhighroller, Jonny Arnett and Thinking Basketball are the best basketball channels in the UA-cam today. ESPN should take notice! Great content, man!
Excellent vid! I would've loved to hear the pace-adjusted numbers and rebound percentage comparisons between eras!
You have the best overall NBA content on UA-cam hands down. Not sure if I said something before but just wanted to comment. I love this game, every single era.
From 1950 to 1976, players staying on the court at least 42 minutes happened all the time... It's happened 85 times in fact. Shortly after the mergers coaches stopped using their star players because the game changed a lot after the NBA-ABA merger. After 1976, players gathering 42 minutes per game became a rare jewel. Every NBA star saw their minutes dipped after the merger!
Great video as always.
How many more videos do you guys have to make before the 5’0” white guy competition rumor is finally dropped? Great work as always.
As always great work and great video from Johnny.
Great video, you should do one on Russell and Wilt’s shot blocking
But blocks were recording back then?
This makes so much sense. Thanks for enlightening me sir
I'd say in today's game they'd be around that 15 to 18 range for rebounds.
Also I have to say you have some of the best NBA content out there and I'm not just talking about UA-cam! You do such an excellent job of breaking down the why's and how's and you go right after the myths placed on the time, team or player(s). You leave no stone unturned!
Young Kareem vs old Wilt. Career overlap
Kareem 1969 - 14.5 reb.. Wilt 1969 - 18.4 reb
Kareem 1970 - 16.0 reb.. Wilt 1970 - 18.2 reb
Kareem 1971 - 16.6 reb (NBA MVP, Finals MVP).. Wilt 1971 - 19.2 reb
Kareem 1972 - 16.1 reb (NBA MVP).. Wilt- 18.6 reb (Finals MVP)
I remember watching an old highlight reel film of basketball in the 60's and it was horrendously bad! 😅 The amount of layups missed was hilarious and you could see big men gobble up rebounds like it was nothing because on most possessions guards and wings where already at the other end once the shot was up in the air.
I'd say in todays game, OG Centers would average around 15 boards a game with the proliferation of guards trying to pad their stats with rebounds. But I'm not sure todays bigs would be as successful because one thing lacking today that happened a lot back then, is good box outs.
I always hear this claim and never find evidence. What game are you even talking about?
These guys today aren't boxing out half as much as they should.
I have to agree. From what I have seen, it's like the other positions on the floor had an understanding that the bigs are going to be the sole proprietors of rebounds lol. I know, but but Elgin Baylor, Robertson, West!! Elgin actively said he was going to invade their turf. Oscar was also playing near 45 minutes a game. Their rebounds are inflated as well from all the opportunities. But yeah, I agree the offensive schemes of that day allowed for more camping in the paint for boards.
Yeah they'd say what's a box out
That's all Rodman did.
If it’s a Jonny Arnett video, I like the video right away.
The game was different then, higher pace, less off ball movement, more misses.
I wouldn't say there was less ball movement, have you seen some teams play today? ISO, ISO, ISO.
Higher pace, more misses is the main reason, with Wilt and Bill being very athletic and talented
Yeah, today it’s not just iso every time, and you wouldn’t play 45+ minutes a game for a whole season
I’d say more ball movement because nobody could dribble, it was just pass and shoot… and miss most of the time.
Dude your content and research is on point!! I love this channel. I have 4 basketball analysis channels I watch and yours is number 1!!! And loooooove the intro!! It’s the first thing that caught my attention when I found this channel 2yrs ago. Respect!!
Yeah there was a lot of rebounds but you still gotta grab 'em
U really thought u did something with this😂
@@ybkid6513 Wdym? Am I not right?
@@ybkid6513 well yeah. bill and wilt had to grab em over their competition? you good?
@@sorinnoctis652 and??
@@ybkid6513 for someone who tried to be clever, you sure are slow lmao.
Man Jonny ESPN or NBA tv needs to give you a segment on their channel
Awesome video! It seems to me that, roughly adjusted for FG percentage and modern long rebounds, elite rebounders get around 30 percent of the total rebounds. If that's true, then I think 23 rebounds per game in the 1960s would be around 14 rebounds per game today. Moses Malone and Dennis Rodman would grab nearly as many rebounds as Wilt and Russell in the 1960s. And today, Wilt and Russell would grab around 15 per game.
Bill Russell understood basketball at a different level than the rest of us. He's a wizard. Russell possessed an extra dimension of understanding. What we think we know about basketball, we don't - and Russell does.
People forget the importance of wingspan. Wilt Chamberlain had an insane 92.5-inch wingspan. Kevin McHale was a freak at 6-10 with a 90-inch wingspan. I don't know what Russell's wingspan is, but it looks very, very long. So even though he was nearly 6-10, his arms made him MUCH longer.
Here's a video I made (borrowing from others) in which I tried to show Russell's impact at game speed: ua-cam.com/video/RoXQtpuqaQg/v-deo.html
He was the rangiest player who ever lived. And he resided in another dimension. Let's call it, the Russell dimension.
They played a game that was faster pace with very lil breaks. U still need the motor to execute all those rebounds. Wilt had way more responsibility on offensive end and still is top dog in boards he’s forever the Chairman of the boards.
*The fact that they dominated the boards against players close to there size makes it even more incredible* 👏👏👏👏👏👏
I think in today's game Wilt would average somewhere around 15-18RPG and Russell around 12RPG or maybe even lower because of his size.
he was 6'10 bare foot😭 and 240 at his heaviest...he was one of the most athletic players of all time, if Dennis could average 18 bill could average 22...they have similar rebounding iqs but bill was bigger, faster and jumped higher...maybe even stronger...bill also hounded for the ball similar to Dennis!!!
@@pioplu4803 agreed I just can't see Russell dominate today like he did when he played. Players are way more athletic. He'd have no advantage. And to be fair Bill was only around 6'8 or 6'9
Charles Barkley dominated the boards being a lot shorter than many Centers. Russell at 6'10+ with shoes on would certainly be able to put up huge rebound numbers with his athleticism & stamina (just ability to stay on the court).
Another great vid. Thank you for producing intelligent content. Now to answer your question. I believe there are 2 possible scenarios whenever you talk about bringing a player to a different era. If we are talking about the time machine principle, where we bring prime Russell and prime Chamberlain to the modern era as they were and just plugging them into the modern game, obviously there would be an adjustment period. Once they acclimated themselves to the modern game, I believe Bill would be very similar to Dennis Rodman, but even more dominant. His intelligence and understanding of the game would transcend era and time, and his otherworldly athleticism would lead to monstrous numbers by today's standards. I would estimate his rebounding numbers around 14-18 per game easily. Wilt had so many skills that were never fully displayed in NBA games. He played for the Harlem Globetrotters for a season after he left Kansas. He started out at center for them, but, after seeing the whole scope of his skills, as well as his popularity, the team elected to move him to the starting 2 guard in order to put the ball in his hands more. I know the conventional wisdom is to equate Wilt to Shaq because of his strength and physical dominance, but understanding these skills, I believe the closest modern player to what Wilt would be in the modern game is Giannis. Looking at Giannis and what he's doing, then realizing that physically Wilt was everything he is, but taller, longer, faster, stronger and with a ridiculous vertical, I have to imagine sort of an "unleashed" version of Wilt would still average 16-20 rebounds a game. Now if you take These two and move them to the modern era where they grew up with video of Olajuwon and Shaq and watched the And 1 tour and all those things, they would be completely different people, but the talent, the physical attributes, the will to win would all be the same. In this scenario, Bill probably averages about 12-14 rebounds while focusing more of his game on offense. He is still dominant on the boards and can take over games at times.Wilt, on the other hand has a much higher ceiling. We know he was able to shoot quite well for his era. With modern coaching his jump shot develops into a serviceable at worst three point game. He was able to handle the ball as well as any center of that era. In the modern game he would absolutely dominate the boards and then be able to lead the break himself or outlet pass to a streaking teammate for easy buckets. I still see him averaging 16-20 boards consistently.
Dude! Congrats on 125k! been here since the barkley better then you think video. Deserve the subs, your vids have only got more interesting
Thanks JP! You’ve been here a while! Means a lot that you’ve stuck around this long 👍
7:14 windmill rebound
*Bravo*. Great breakdown.
Nowadays Wilt and Bill would average around 20 in their primes and around 18 for their careers, they are still the 2 most athletic centers the NBA has ever seen by far and 2 of the 5 most athletic players ever, add a great height (about 2 inches over the average for Bill and 5 for Wilt due to modern shoes adding 1.5-2 inches) and extremely long arms with very big hands and they would dominate the interior easily. Also a slower pace give them a better chance at being under each basket for every rebound (it was harder in the 60s despite their speed because the game was that fast) and having less possessions means more energy per possession so they would have more energy to fight for every rebound. Guys like Pettit, Thurmond, Lucas, Bellamy or Baylor would average around 16-18 in their primes and around 14-16 for their careers. We also have to really take into consideration that most these guys were as obsessed with rebounding as Rodman (Jerry Lucas' nickname was The Computer because he always studied how the ball bounced off the rim when other players shot and learned were to go when a player shot to get the rebound) because they understood that on defense the possession is not over until you get the rebound and on offense more rebounds means more shots and hence more points.
And modern centers would get more rebounds obviously, but safe for Dwight, Drummond, maybe Capela and apparently Jokic no one would get past 15 for more than a couple seasons because I don't see them having rebound as a priority, plus if they played against the 60s center many would have a height and athleticism disadvantage, as centers back then were more focused than modern centers in the physical part of the game, and modern players are more focused on things like 3pt shooting or face up scoring.
It is more about attitude than it is era or height, just watch the best "modern" rebounder, Rodman (more video and more accessible), it was all about that hunger for the ball and not his height, weight, athleticism or even competition.
Yeah.....uhhhh....no....not in today's game.
@@bwink23 wow, awesome argument, and yes, smaller centers and mostly smaller powerforwards plus less possessions so they can use more energy per possession and have a way better chance of fighting for a higher % of rebounds plus their waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger hunger for rebounds would give them a great advantage and ge them to the numbers I mentioned, just watch what Rodman did in a slower era, being smaller, and competing against much bigger centers and powerforwards, if you think they wouldn't get the numbers i mentioned you are pretty uneducated on 60s players or very dellusional
@@bwink23 uhhhhhh Nikola Jokic won MVP last year. Yeah uhhhhh yeahhhhh that happened.
NIKOLA JOKIC 1 MVP in 2020s.
SHAQUILLE O’NEAL 0 MVPs in 1990s.
😩😂😂😂✌🏽🤦♂️
@@HT-sm9dm uhhhh yeeeaahh.... irrelevant, no point uhhh yeah .
@@bwink23 lmao no it’s not irrelevant. It’s actually the exact opposite of that. It’s literally the definition of relevant in this case.
About the undersized part, the weight is the difference in the 2010s is 225lbs. In 1961-1970, the average weight is 202lbs. In basketball, that’s a significant difference.
It definitely is. The point is addressing the misconception about height, but yes, modern athletes do have a significant advantage in muscle mass
Wilt would lead the league in rebounding today,just pluck him right out of the 60s converses and all and he would do it easily and if he heard Andre Drummond call himself the best rebounder ever Wilt would set the record against him.Thats who Chamberlain was it's no coincidence that his regular season rebounding record and his playoff rebounding record came against Bill Russell also 7 (almost half) of his 40 rebound games came against Russell and that he averaged 5 more rebounds head to head.
The guy was blocking Kareem's sky hook at its Apex when he was old on one good leg and 310 pounds. The man was simply the greatest and it gets a little tiring to see people try to negate his stats but no one else's.Should we adjust LeBrons' scoring because of defensive 3 seconds, restricted zone and no hand checking or his assists because players can dribble before they take the shot. What would Chamberlain rebound in today's game where many teams don't even try for an offensive rebound probably around 22.
Truth
You're denying the facts about the 60's Nba basketball and you complain that younglings don't align their views on yours , we know that Wilt is an athletic phenom , it's pretty obvious but no way he would put up the ridiculous numbers there was back then , it will lower regardless of what you believe
@@warkunitale I look at it more as available energy to expend,we both know that he had the greatest stamina in the game.So if he plays at a slower pace than it follows that he would have more energy for rebounding. In the 1967 playoffs against the Celtics and Bill Russell he grabbed an average of 32 rebounds per game on his triple double average of 21 pts,32 rebounds and 10 assists,he out rebounded Russell by nearly 9 and had almost half of his team average 65 rebounds.What I am saying is if he put his mind to rebounding at least 22 per game he would have the skill, athleticism, intelligence,and stamina to do so.
@@johncrom1400 with less possessions and way less missed shots on average in the league plus the fact that centers can't sit in the paint as long as they could in the 60's , I doubt he would average the same amount of rebounds , he will most likely still be the best rebounder during several seasons but 20 plus rebounds will not happen as frequently , and a lower pace don't save you stamina , you still has to use energy on defense for longer , it won't change much for Wilt with his stamina anyway but putting his mind into it won't maintain the same amount he had then all of his career .
great video as always!
Beautiful video for giving so much more respect to the old school than most people have the brain capacity to do. This why I love your vids.
Forgot to mention, the reason the majority of the top 25 rebounders are in the 60s is the same reason the most hof bigs at one time are in the 60s and that’s because of skill lol. The mid 60s to early 70s simply produced the best rebounders of any era as the most fundamentally sound on the boards with gifted timing to go along with whatever their pshical gifts were. They were better rebounders than the late 40s-late 50s before them as well as the eras after them from 80s-today. Simple as that. There’s a reason you see guys whose long careers were closer to the 80s and 90s than they were to the mid 60s and early 70s still get out rebounded in their prime by guys like old wilt Chamberlain and old bill Russell etc… such is even the case with goat tier Kareem in his prime young in the early 70s when faced against old wilt getting beat on the boards consistently year after year game after game as well as even finding himself getting beat by the Nate Thurmonds of the league as well. Thus why these guys mostly stay top 25 rebounders no matter what era they play in
As usual I just have to correct the inflated stats argument. There’s so many examples of why wilt and Russell would easily lead the league in rebounding today and in any other era by large margins. One of many that I actually don’t think I have given you guys yet is to look no further than the 7 seasons between 1961 and 1967 where bill Russell averaged his career highs in rebounds in 1964 and 1965 back to back. During back to back years surrounding 64 and 65, (1961-1963 and 1966-1967) the pace and attempts at years reached considerably higher attempts and lower fg percentage. In 1961 the fg attempts was as high as 109.4 and percentage was as low as 41%. Fast forward to 1964 which is the year bill russel had his career high 24.7 rebounds per game average leading the league in rebounding as well, the league fg attempts were as low as 99.1! Over 10 attempts lower! Meanwhile the field goal percentage was higher as well at 43.3 percent. Over 2 percent higher. Yet here bill Russell is crushing what he did during a year where inflated stats argument says he should’ve did much worse. Thus it’s only reasonable to assume bill would be able to do the same starting in 1990 and have a couple back to back career highs even higher than his in his own time where the attempts finally dropped to over 10 less again and over 2 percent high FG percentage again (just 4 percent higher than 1962) than his career high year in 1962.
That’s how weak of an argument anyone is going to be using when they say Russell and Wilts numbers are going to decrease and decrease so much that they’d wouldn’t lead the league or dominate like they did in their time numbers wise in other eras like 90s-today, if they use this severely broken and debunked inflated stats argument to try n prove that.
Plus it takes far more stamina to play a higher paced game without as many stops while averaging the minutes wilt and bill averaged which the inflated stats argument also ignores. On top of that it ignores the fact that wilt and bill would have so much more conserved energy in a slower paced game even with load management and defensive 3 second rule, that they’d be able to play the most minutes of any player in the league today or any other era and dominate each game taking over the majority of the rebounds that are available far more than the majority of rebounds they took in their time that were available due to such a huge lack of taxing on the body and stamina usage that they’d have to their benefit.
Not to mention lack of defense, lack of rebounders n bigs compared to their era, lack of physicality, far more free throws to get rebounds etc… and the biggest fact yet that the inflated stat argument completely misses is that they show the pattern of dominating the rebounds leading the league as the top 2 all the way up to the years they retired where the pace was getting slower and slower and attempts was getting lower but fg percentage was getting higher. And tho it was a smaller avg than their prime rbpg, they were in their old age literal last year and the number was still in the ballpark within a 3 point difference of Their career average!!! Especially in the case for Wilt whom did this till the last day of his career post surgery. So just imagine how many more rebounds theyd average if their primes were in the years that they led the league in rebounding as old injury riddled men???
Therefore if they played today, there’s far more evidence with all the luxuries theyd benefit from today, as well as in other eras like the 90s that they’d put up just as impressive numbers if not more impressive and even more certainly, lead the league in what they led in their time dominating all the same even if the unlikelihood of not putting up as impressive numbers as they did in their time happened.
In other eras after them besides todays era, they had much of the same luxuries to do the same. In the 90s the best rebounding competition wilt and Russell would have to deal with is a 6 foot 7 less physical and rebounding presence than wes Unseld, power forward named Dennis Rodman who out rebounded all of his centers at the 4 position. This shows how much the bigs had already fallen by the 90s. No evidence supports that anything close to what rodman did his centers would happen in the 90s to wilt or Russell. Plus less hof centers to challenge them than what they faced in their era.
Case closed. Great video!! Hope more n more of the new age fans wake up. It only helps the culture of this wonderful sport.
great video, presentation and research, thanks
jonny with another great vid
Bro, love Your channel. The amount of facts You provide in each vid is insane. One thing You should improve is Your sound system. The content You provide is way to good to sound like that. Best of luck friend.
For sure! My pinned comment on this video explains why it does. It’s definitely not the usual sounds quality. Thanks for watching the video and for the feedback :)
@@jonnyarnett Oh, Yeah. Sorry then. My bad.
This video is very important and necessary to basketball fans.
Great breakdown Jonny. Educational and entertaining! Nice!
I think people don't think about height when it comes to russell and his contemporaries and more about the fact that he weighed as much as dwyane wade
Very good video! Excellent analysis!
I think they'd get 14-19 in their prime depends on their minutes played and teammates
That's, probably, about accurate
They would play 48mpg... If they were doing it back then with Faster Pace.... Drummond gets 14-15rpg... Wilt would get 20+...7'2" stronger than shaq as athletic as Jordan...
@@reimixo they wouldn’t play 48 minutes a game, players like Giannis play around 30 minutes a game because they are blowing out teams when they’re on the court
Based on what?
I don’t know if it’s just me or not, but rebounding seems like a stat that matters less and less in today’s NBA.
the opposite is true if you ask me. Less is more
Rebounding is always important. Basketball is an alternate possession game. The more rebounds you get, the more scoring opportunities your team gets and fewer your opponent gets
Actually No. With 3s becomes more staple. Rebounding becomes really important
All stats are meaningless without context
This is a certified hood classics
Well perhaps if Wilt is averaging 22.9 rebounds per season for his whole career. I reckon that with 20 less possessions a game, a 5% reduction in rebounds from there due to accuracy increase on shots and only 60% of the remainder being closer to the hoop. Wilt would be averaging 10.73 rebounds a game on 2pt shots. Plus whatever he gets on 3pt shots as Wilt is tall enough with reactions enough to be able to be able to time and judge direction off the hoop, so possibly at least 1 of those per game seems reasonable. So maybe 962 on an average season, could break 1000 if he has a strong season and has good teammates pressuring shots.
Both would still dominate, they would still finish 1-2 every year, but their gross numbers would obviously be less.
Great vid.
I'm actually doing a write up on Wilt Chamberlain and what he'd average in the modern game, as well as the more recent past during the 1990's. I chose three different years of Wilt's career; 61/62 offensive peak at age 25, 66/67 Wilt as post distributer, and 71/72 Wilt post knee injury and working as the best defensive force in the game. There was a lot of effort put into the translation of different eras pace and style of play, as well as statistical trends that encompass the center position across time. If you'd like the math behind this I can provide it, and will do so in the eventual finished article. Anyway, here it is:
1961/1962, 25 year old Wilt if he played in:
2020/2021 at 36 minutes per game:
35.4 PPG
64.06 TS%
14.49/23.22 FG, 62.4%
6.42/10.47 FT, 61.3%
16.09 RPG (24.22 TRB%)
1.7 APG
4.45 BPG
The 1990’s at 40 minutes per game:
34.17 PPG
59.55 TS%
13.91/24.12 FG, 57.6%
6.36/10.38 FT, 61.3%
15.21 RPG (22.46 TRB% )
1.7 APG
5.86 BPG (If following same career arc as previous shot blocking greats)
Wilt’s raw stats from 1961/1962:
48.5 MPG
50.4 PPG
53.6 TS%
20.0/39.5 FG, 50.6%
10.4/17.0 FT, 61.3%
25.7 RPG (17.65 TRB%, 1st in league, the rest of top five averaged 15.05 TRB%)
2.4 APG
13.66 BPG (based on 3 games recorded by Harvey Pollack, averaging 49.67 MPG)
---------------------------------------------------
1966/1967, 30 year old Wilt, if he played in:
2020/2021 at 36 minutes per game:
20.7 PPG
73.90 TS%
8.58/10.48 FG, 81.9%
3.51/7.97 FT, 44.1%
16.38 RPG (24.65 TRB%)
6.53 APG
4.06 BPG
The 1990’s at 40 minutes per game:
20.01 PPG
68.90 TS%
8.18/10.88 FG, 75.189%
3.65/8.27 FTA, 44.1%
15.47 RPG (22.85 TRB% )
6.5 APG
5.37 BPG (if following same career arc)
Wilt’s raw stats from 1966/1967:
45.5 MPG
24.1 PPG
63.7 TS%
9.7/14.2 FG, 68.3%
4.8/10.8 FT, 44.1%
24.2 RPG (18.64 TRB%, 1st again, with the rest of top five averaging 16.07 TRB%)
7.8 APG
9.33 BPG (based on 9 games recorded by Pollack, averaging 45.67 MPG)
---------------------------------------------------
1971/1972, 35 year old Wilt if he played in:
2020/2021 at 32 minutes per game:
11.78 PPG
69.212 TS%
5.03/6.73 FGA, 74.77%
1.72/4.08 FTA, 42.20%
13.32 RPG (22.60 TRB% = average of 3rd place in era of three ball 16/17 -20/21)
3.16 APG
2.93 BPG
The 1990’s at 36 minutes per game:
11.54 PPG
64.3962 TS%
4.87/7.07 FGA, 68.79%
1.81/4.29 FTA, 42.20%
12.08 RPG (20.31 TRB% = the average of 1990’s 3rd place averages)
3.15 APG
3.94 BPG
Wilt’s raw stats for 1971/1972:
42.3 Minutes per game
14.8 PPG
61.0 TS%
6.0/9.3 FG, 64.9%
2.7/6.4 FT, 42.2%
19.2 RPG (20.08 TRB%, 3rd in league)
4.0 APG
7.44 BPG (based on 25 games recorded by Harvey Pollack, averaging 43.68 MPG)
What about the 3 second rule also you could hang in the paint.
I'd say they would average around 18 rebounds a game, playing around 36 minutes, considering the fact that teams don't tend to play their bigs more than that and that they would be dragged further from the basket. That would still make them far better rebounders than any current player. This is not taking into consideration the idea that they may be even more athletic with today's training regiment.
Bill Russell is not averaging 18 rebounds lmfaoo
It’s very possible, Rudy gobert is averaging 15 rebounds a game this season
@@milkify5102rodman average more than 13, bill Russell is far more athletic.
@@hughjass4736 bill russell and wilt chamberlains athletic skills were highly exaggerated. Bill Russell is a top 5 player all time but he would not be the best rebounder in the league if he played today, not even close.
@@milkify5102Bill Russell and Wilt chamberlain could both touch the top of the backboard.There aren't any NBA players that can do that today😊
7:19 what were the jerseys made of back then
The height may be similar but the weight could be very different. I personally give Wilt the title as GOAT Rebounder because I look into Per 36. To me, it's the most reliable for all eras and it really crunches up everyone's stat as if they only played 36 minutes. It may not be perfect but I believe it is the closest we'll get.
People forget that. Wilt and Bill Russell wasn't playing against other mobile big men.
The reason why their rebounding stats make them look like demi-gods is because they ARE demi-gods. You can't tekk me they're not the sons of some mastermind god.
so Bob Petit is also a demi-god ? If we're talking rebounding for example , this guy too has way more rebounds than any great rebounder the Nba has seen since the 60's
So.... putting things in perspective:
Rodman in his best year played 40.3 minutes, compared to wilts 48.5
In his best year, the avr rebounds was 43.7 per team, compared to wilts 71.4
Rodman averaged 18.7 rebounds in that year. If he were to have the same nr of rebounds:
18.7 * (71.4/43.7) = 30.55 rebounds/game.
If rodman would play as much (and I think Rodman is one of the few who could, given his crazy workrate they speak of):
30.55 * (48.5/40.3) = 36.78 rebounds/game.
Wilt got up to 27.2, so yes. Rodman seems to be the better rebounder -- even ignoring the three point shot... and by almost 10 rebounds per game.
Let that sink in. Rodman would probably have an average of 35 rebounds a game.
A 50 rebound performance wouldn't be that strange; his max was 29 so about 50% more.
Hence, would Wilt and Russel dominate? Probably not as much on the boards. Their rebounding figures are 'inflated' almost 100% by more playing time and more shots.
In the past week in separate games:
Andre Drummond: 43 mins, 23 reb
Jarrett Allen: 34 mins, 22 reb
If Wilt is playing 48 mins today he's shitting in 25 boards.
I think that the field goal percentage was a result of more possessions rather than being it’s own factor as more shots means more misses as well
It could also means more shots made but somehow you finish with a 41 fg% average for the league , this is horrendous , even Russel has a 42 fg% average in career , Wilt was one of the sole guys maybe the only really in that era with a high 50 fg% and I guess that explains his scoring numbers .
I watched GM 4 of The 1965 finals, both teams literally got a shot up every 6 seconds at least.
What's also worth noting is back in the day, they actually used to fight for rebounds. Nowadays, more often than not, shot goes up just get back on defense. I absolutely hate that about today's game.
Extremely tall, extremely strong and extremely skilled players
If they both played 30 minutes a night then because of their designated position and spots on the court I can very easily see Russ and Wilt grabbing 15-17 boards a night each, but having the ability to do more because their stamina although their lack of spacing would make it harder on coach’s to draw defenders so they might only play 30 minutes a game anyway
My guess is that Wilt with his speed, agility and strength would ave around 14-17 in his prime. Wouldnt be surprised if he had some 32-17-5-1-4 type seasons..Giannis shit but more athletic.
Russ would have 17-15-6-2-3 numbers, like a Draymond but Rodmans RBs and Joakim Noah offense
Great video and I can think of a few guys that would put up great rebounding numbers. These the only players I think that could put Wilt and Bill like numbers in their time
Rodman
Shaq
Hakeem
KG
4:30 What is the variance though? :p
I looked over Gianni's and embiids rebounds. these players are definitely most similar to wilt and Russel, and I think they could really solidly put up 15 to 20 rebounds per game like you guys said in that other video
That makes a lot of sense I always wondered this
Great video as usual Jonny but one thing you didn't mention was that offensive rebounds weren't even recorded in their time.
I think that Wilt & Bill were as or more athletic than Rodman as well as being taller & stronger, especially Wilt.
More possessions & shots mean more running up & down so to play 40+ mins for 10+ years means Bill & Wilts stamina was off the charts! Plus no crazy antics like Dennis, just even more focus, so yeah I think they could average 20+ boards any era.
Nah though , unless they decide to do camping under the basket like back then , if not is would only be possible in their best seasons and it will dip , they would still be great rebounders though no doubt about it
@@warkunitale In 91 & 92 Dennis Rodman averaged 18rpg, so I think it possible for Wilt and Bill to have gotten 20+ in any era. I never said for their whole career but if anyone could do it, it would be them.
If Jonny Arnett and Jxmy were basketball analyst it will be the best day of my life
Very nice video!
Honey, Grab the kids! Jonny posted!
At 9:20 reminds me so much of Ernie J when he was asked if he was white or black 🤣
The one thing all pundits overlook is that rebounding includes footwork and effort. These two rebounded well because they worked at it. They moved to a high percentage position based on the angle of the shot. Most players today don’t work for better positioning. Rodman did, which is why he did so well. Big men back then were more active than they are today.
Chamberlain and Russell would put up Rodman numbers in the modern era.
Taking for granted their talents and skills, I think they could easily average 16 - 18 rebounds per game nowadays.
This is why Rodman is the GOAT rebounder
The fact they played 48 minutes a game in a much faster pace game is pretty mind blowing
Rebounding is a very hard art to master. You need to be instinctive, meaning you need to be at the right place at the right time, everytime. You also need the size, strength and athleticism to back it up.
Honestly, players nowadays are far more athletic than the athletes in the past and they will dominate the boards. BUT and a big but, Bill and Wilt are anomalies in their time. Even if they played more minutes, their stamina is just inhuman that they can still keep up.
They deserve to be called demigods of rebounds just because they were just good at grabbing boards. To those telling that Wilt and Bill will be just average in today's game, you need to check them if they're on crack.
As much as the era/pace/efficiency definitely play a role in just how high Bill and Wilt's numbers are relative to modern players, the fact that their peers weren't putting up the same numbers on different teams inclines me to give them most of thr credit. You might have one or two guys pop into the neighborhood of what Bill and Wilt were doing, but they didn't sustain it. And the fact that the next best all time rebounder people can name - Rodman - was no where near the kind of scorer of even Bill, let alone Wilt (or even if you extend it to Moses who had impressive peaks in rebounding and scoring but wasn't the kind of passer that either Bill or Wilt were - averaging less than a third of their assists per game on his career and almost certainly WAY fewer blocks) and you even up the reality that Bill and Wilt were exceptional generational talents and not merely products of their era or their systems.
You can't be a do-it-all player, multiple time champion, multiple time league leader, AND "just" in the right place at the right time. Maybe if they were playing in the 90s they'd have gotten fewer rebounds per game than Rodman. But when you look at how MUCH better they were than their peers, we have to acknowledge they'd have filled up the rest of the stat sheet to such a degree that it would shake up everything else about how that era (or any other era with them dropped into) went and no one would question who was a better overall player.
Bill and Wilt don't HAVE to be the greatest rebounders of all time to deserve recognition for their achievements - but the fact that they are not just in the conversation but leading it is merely a testament to just how much recognition they are entitled to.
Great points
Bill and Wilt were better at rebounding than their peers but not outlandishly much better if you look the rebound numbers of centers then , wa can recognize that those two players were unique but did still played in a favorable era when it comes to certain stats , that's undeniable truth too
@@warkunitale dude there's only 5 players in NBA history to average 15 or more Total Rebounds across their career and Bill and Wilt are two of them - and both averaged more than 22. That's 50% more than their best competition before, during, and after their tenure. That'd be like if Steph was averaging 45 ppg for his entire career and someone said it's just a product of the 3 point era and plenty of his peers were making lots of 3s too while Jordan and Lebron are both out there with sub 35 career averages. Come on now, it ain't the same.
@@akkronym48 And what is the number of player averaging 15 or more rebounds in a career who played outside the 60's NBA ? I wait .
I'm fine with recognizing that Wilt and Russel were the best rebounders or their eras and maybe all-time if we account for adjustments to other eras , it don't negate the fact that those numbers are also a byproduct of their era , they were not the only centers to average 20 rebs certain seasons then . It was definitely something more common for obvious reasons . That's the blunt reality , I'm not trying to despise them for free
@@warkunitale then you're missing the point.
Setting aside what their career averages actually were, they were from rookie to retire 50% better than the next best guys. You can't say that about Rodman or Drummond or Dwight or Gobert or Barkley or Malone. We can chalk 22+ up to era, but we can't chalk 50% better than everyone else up to era - that has to be on them. Yes they absolutely played in a favorable era for rebounding - but they were still mountains better at it than their also all-time-great doing-this-professionally peers to a degree no one has been able to replicate. If we want to say that someone else was a better rebounder because they player in a harder era to get rebounds and still got a lot - fine, we can play that what if and give someone else their flowers. But their excellence will have been a slimmer margin over their contemporaries than Bill and Wilt's excellence was and however you want to diminish the credit they deserve, you cannot simply wave your hand at the other people who could sometimes do some of what they did and ignore that no one else did it the way they could.
Another thing that keeps rebounds for centers so low these days is the predominance of stretch bigs. Back then, Russell and Wilt were just hanging out under the basket on defense, today they'd be pulled out to the perimeter and their rebound numbers would go way down
Another question: Given how competitive and athletic these guys are, would they have been able to develop outside shots to play as more modern big men? Russell might have stuck down low as a "throwback" big, but it's hard for me to imagine anything Wilt *couldn't* do with his game. I can absolutely picture him developing an outside shot
Weren't there more free throw attempts in early basketball eras? Before the loose ball foul was created, didn't players shoot free throws instead of taking the ball out? There are probably other rules changes that have also affected the number of rebounds per game.
If we did approximation math by putting the ratio of 60s / Present era avg rebound per team at 70/40 and applied it to Wilt's 25 rebound per game average, the number comes to 14.29 rebounds a game today. This is an awesome league-topping number but one that makes sense and not demigoddish.
Another reason there were more rebounds in the 60s is that every defensive foul resulted in one or more free throws. None of this taking the ball out of bounds on non-shooting fouls until reaching the penalty. The big men who lined up next to the basket on free throw attempts got a lot of easy rebounds on missed free throws. This also partially explains why centers and power forwards got a disproportionate share of the rebounds in the 60s compared to today.
The stats at the Basketball Reference site are amazing. Let's look at the difference between Wilt's '61-'62 season (the 50.4 ppg season) and the last full season that LeBron played ('17-'18)
For Wilt, the regular season started on 10/19/61 and ended on 3/14/62. 80 games in 147 days. In those 80 games, Wilt played 12 back-to-backs, 8 triple headers, 2 stints of four straight days and between 1/17/62 and 1/21/62 five consecutive nights (!!) (granted it was a home stint). In that five game stretch (two of which were OT games), Wilt averaged 55 ppg and 25.2 rpg, while on the floor for every single minute of the 250 minutes.
For LeBron, the '17-'18 regular season started on 10/17/17 and ended on 4/11/18. 82 games in 177 days; two more games in thirty extra days. In those 82 games LeBron played 13 back-to-backs. No triple headers and certainly no four- or five-game stretches.
Granted in '61-'62 the only team west of the Mississippi was the LA Lakers (OK, OK, technically the St Louis Hawks were west of the Mississippi, but only by a couple of miles). And usually when a team played the Lakers, they were back-to-backs on one team's court. But there was one MASSIVE difference -- in the '60s teams mostly traveled commercially by air, and many times by bus.
All this to say that you really shouldn't discount the teams and players of the '60s and early '70s. To do so is usually due to recency bias.
While we can all argue as to who is the GOAT from now until the end of time, to say the players of the '60s weren't athletes is foolish. Check out Oscar Robertson's first five years for one example. One thing that would be hard to argue against is that Wilt was the most physically dominant player in NBA history. I mean, who else dislocated an opposing player's shoulder with a shot block?
Facts
HOW GOOD WAS ALONZO MOURNING ACTUALLY
A VIDEO ON THE 94 FIBA TEAM (THE REAL DREAM TEAM 2)
3 point line was introduced at 1979. By then rebounding numbers were declining for 20+ years. Not sure why it was chosen as the the first reason while it contribution is so negligible in comparison to minutes per game of start players or FGA numbers.
With their talent and modern training they would be incredible today without a doubt
Pls do the same for the 2020s and 1960s overall stats versus 1980s and 1990s. I feel the 2020s and 1960s are both bloated in all statistical categories.
The rims back then were also built with much less give. They were closer to outdoor rims than the ones the NBA has been using since at least the early 90s.
I had read that once before, but I'd love to see more info on it.